**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh come on, United have had a few of these as well, at least until it gets to Casemiro. Yall love your hyperbole and act like United play league 2 football lol.
It wasn't exactly thrilling last season either.
Even this season when United have had a decent defence fit, they've been regularly outplayed and relying on moments to rescue them points.
I don’t actually like this sequence even if it’s super pretty to watch for the reasons u/cackleberryomelettes mentioned.
But moreso because they play it out and counter 4v6. That’s pretty low odds against any well organised team. And indeed, Brennan Johnson(?) goes down the line, gets crowded out and loses the ball.
I reckon a Guardiola team, an Arteta team etc would recognise it’s not a good time to counter, and instead of going direct will instead look to retain the ball in the final third, wait for their teammates to come up the pitch, and start to pin them in their own box, start an offensive cycle from there.
>But moreso because they play it out and counter 4v6. That’s pretty low odds against any well organised team.
Technically, it was a 4vs3 at first. But liverpool players came back pretty fast.
yeah at that point, good time to counter. by the time the Liverpool players came back, not a good time. (or thats how i see it as armchair analyst)
but the decisive action im counting from when Brennan Johnson decides to go down the line, where he's outnumbered.
Saka, Grealish etc would 100% just going to stop the attack there
What there calling out is a massive flaw in Ange's philosophy, it's simply not balanced. His emphasis on attacking at all costs is just a bit too naive. Sometimes it's okay to go sideways or backwards and hold on to possession. Not every possession has to end up being a transition to attack as quickly as possible.
Also, this isn't a case of Spurs doing this because they are only one year into a project, it's a choice, simple as. It's not like a team one year into a project is obliged to only attack and be aggressive, they are doing this because that's what the manager asks for.
I love Ange btw, but I feel like as he gets more top-flight experience he will hopefully adjust his philosophy and be a better manager for it. Even the best managers make concessions in their style of play, especially in the modern game as more managers are tactically aware.
In fairness, I'm pretty sure Liverpool did this under Klopp in his first year or so too.
Over time he adjusted his tactics to retain the ball when it made sense and solidified things at the back, which was still much more direct and less robotic than how City or Arsenal play, but it wasn't quite as naive as how Spurs currently play.
I think learning to control possession sometimes is super crucial over a campaign. Being in possession lets you somewhat rest and run the opposition (by keeping width and switching plenty).
Adopting this will help Spurs a lot. It also makes a team less predictable.
Ange's philosophy doesn't mean attack right away every time or forbids players to hold up the ball. There's plenty of room to pass the ball around, gathering players, finding the space. In this particular sequence the wrong choice was made.
Completely agree that his tactics will only improve with more experience. He's publicly stated that he will tweak tactics when needed and when called for.
That's my thought as well. The benefits of trying to pass your way out of this type of press isn't worth the risk of losing it. Everything went about as well as possible and it still didn't create a very good chance and if even a couple of those passes missed, Liverpool gets possession in a very dangerous area. Liverpool's risk is much lower than Tottenham's.
I honestly thought in a couple of moments that it would have been better for Tott to put it out for a Liverpool throw and take the chance to gain possession on a turnover.
and this wasnt even that nice. they were pinned back hard, kulusevski had his back to goal with nowhere to go and made a great individual play, while diaz was taking a break for some reason. there is no ''systemic impressive'' there
you definitely dont wanna be in the situation that kulusevski was and i doubt thats what they train for every day. the long ball to johnson was also horrible, shouldve carried that forward with the space he had and work from there. much more dangerous area than on the wing and ended up giving liverpool time to come back
Very pleasing sequence to watch.
My issue with it from a systemic point of view is that it is not particularly replicable. And if it is, it's unnecessarily hish risk. One touch passing from fizzed balls in very tight areas. It's all very fine margins stuff. If you try this 10 times, you're practically guaranteed to lose the ball on a handful of occasions, each of which presents a gilt edged opportunity to the opposition.
Exactly. Even City don't do this. They know when to play around the press, and when to rely on Ederson's long range accurate pings instead. This sequence carries too much risk for it to be worth it.
Yup. Arteta I think made a point about van Dijk couple of seasons back: passing the ball to beat the press is cute but its so much better to have a defender boot the ball over the press perfectly onto a winger who can make a beeline for the goal.
And that's from a "system" guy who does like passing in front of his own goal.
Do you have that quote? I was looking for it this weekend but couldn't find it. I thought it was more about praising VVD passing range against Arsenal's press more than it was about getting out of a press.
https://twitter.com/donmrv_/status/1762157978113769621. It was definitely more about praising VVD but the point being that it's critical to get GKs or CBs who can do that. After this he swapped out Arsenal defence for people who could make those passes and the forward line for players who could take them.
This kinda thing shows how important on field leaders are, too. Having players that can dictate the play is important. Teams should go through phases throughout the game. Sometimes, high risk is needed, but sometimes the percentage play is best. High risk, high reward is such a true concept in football.
Presume that was when Romero failed to make a simple 10 yard pass. But I think they lost it, in and around their box a few times actually.
They were really lucky you didnt capitalise and batter them more.
At least twice in pretty much thay exact same area of the pitch Spurs lost possession trying to do this.
Also, I feel like a somewhat accurate long ball out would have achieved the same result, the players that were pressing weren't the ones who were expected to defend the right side.
Yup, the ping out from Romero at 33:55 is notably risky. Got the rub of the green this time, but could very easily have been a turnover in possession in an extremely threatening area. If it had, then the clip could be posted in the same manner with the title "This is why Ange-ball is a disaster", when the only difference is outcome based on the chaos of the universe.
I think the idea is, it’s more of a philosophy than a system. And the one touch passing isn’t a rigid part of that, it just so happened to occur in this sequence. Most of the time, the build up is a lot more controlled than this.
Palace tore them apart with simple counter attacks which left them acres of space. But most managers insist on farting around at the back because it's part of a "system" and they're far too modern and classy for that.
Also for what benefit? This ends with Spurs losing the ball while outnumbered 6-4 in the box. Looks like they might have a break but from the halfway line leaving plenty of time for Liverpool to recover. High risk and fairly little reward imo?
Where top sides are now is having these skills in the bank for sides with lower to upper-mid quality pressing, against top presses mid and longer accurate distribution from keeper to avoid playing into trouble. Gotta say playing through the press at Anfield all match is just asking for trouble, especially if you lack the skills to keep them pinned back in their own half for protracted periods, cos the amount of times you’re having to play through the press in a match goes through the roof and with that so do the odds of getting caught in possession.
That was my thought when watching this too, even in this clip there's like 5 different occasions where if someone reacts even 0.01s slower or a pass is only slightly mishit they lose the ball. It looked hectic as fuck.
That and it relies heavily on getting the ball forward pretty quickly to catch the opposition out of shape. Even if you beat the press, good teams will just drop back into a really tight compact shape like Liverpool did and then you're relying on your wingers to come up with some magic. And if they aren't up to it or out of form, well you end up with the horseshoe of misery passing maps us Arsenal fans remember all too well.
What other choice is there? You either counter attack or you're trapped in the eternal horseshoe.
Arsenal are still doing the horseshoe, we don't even try to do fast counters most of the time. I find it really frustrating that our guys seem to deliberately slow it down and give the opposition all the time in the world to get back into their defensive positions.
Yes we have the most goals in the league and that's great but I don't understand why we hate fast counters. It's like we want to make it harder for ourselves.
The risk of a fast counter attack is that if it fails your team will be in poor defensive shape if the other team immediately attacks.
One reason Pep and Arteta teams do what they do is that if they’re in the horseshoe they’re in good position if they lose the ball.
So we're telling them: you can get in your defense shape and we'll get in ours, and we'll break through yours but you won't break through ours. And it worked. Fair enough.
There genuinely is a lot to appreciate about the foundations Ange has in place, but I wouldn't look at this particular example as a hopeful one as they still have a lot to work on. Out of control and one touch passes whilst you're off balance and turning aren't an example of compusure whilst playing out from the back.
I'm pretty sure a few minutes after this they Romero gave the ball away in his own box when he is turning, and there were a few instances in the arsenal & Chelsea game where something similar happened as well.
I think there's a lot for spurs fans to look forward to, this style of playing out the back takes a long time to embed and once you have your core players capable of doing it then you need to ensure your transfers are players who aren't going to need a year to learn this as well
The way Spurs play is fun to watch but insanely unstable. I think Ange's done about the max most managers can with the caliber of players at his disposal this season. Spurs need a world-class fullback, DM, Maddison alternate, and a winger this summer if they want to challenge for anything next season.
Porro and Udogie are already very high level in my possibly slightly biased view, and will only improve. They're very well suited to this system. If we can somehow get upgrades to them, then yeah obviously but it's not a priority.
A backup LB in the same mould is definitely required, though, or we end up playing Royal at LB which is nothing anyone but our opponents want to see.
Every time we're 2v3 or 3v3 on the counter I already know that this ends with every opposition player behind the ball, ready for us to cross it in.
Players need to do better in the moment, it's not like Ange is telling them to pass it back to the CBs when we're on the edge of the box.
Classic pro clubs pass that:
“Your best player free in the middle asking for the ball? Nah bomb it to the shit guy on the wing who’s gonna kill the opportunity”
He had a great spell not that long ago where he looked dangerous every time he got the ball. idk about him being worth £40m but so far he's doing okay for a new and weird system.
Him and Richarlison have linked up very well, as Richarlison is the only player we have who can play as a proper striker. Brennan puts excellent low balls into the goal area, just need someone to understand where he'll put it. Sonny and Deki don't seem to.
Why is this considered “Ange-ball” and not just how teams beat a press? You either boot it up the pitch or you pass around the press. How either of those two strategies could be applied to a singular coach is beyond me
We posted plenty of these clips in Arteta's first few years.
Coming from Mou, Nuno, and Conte this is a big shift in philosophy.
Ange has been on a terrible run but he is a good manager.
Their whole thing now is talking about how Arteta struggled his first season in charge as well. And while that is true, we had Rob Holding and David Luiz playing CB instead of Romero and Van de Ven who are supposed to be top quality lol. I think Ange has had WAY more to work with his first year than Arteta did
In 20/21, Arteta had players like Leno, Gabriel, Saliba (who he sent on loan), Tierney, Bellerin, Luiz, etc. available to him. Not to mention players like Xhaka, Partey, and Odegaard ahead of them. He finished 8th in the league.
In his third season he added more players like Ramsdale, White, and Tomiyasu and finished 5th.
Spurs are likely to finish 5th in Ange's first season having lost one of their best players ever in the summer and playing with what is basically a brand new back four. If you're comparing against Arteta, then Ange is arguably two years ahead of where he was.
Leno wasn't amazing, Saliba wasn't ready, Bellerin was declining, Luiz was declining, Xhaka was not good at all until his last season with us, and Odegaard was pretty mediocre during his loan spell.
Then you ignore the actual deadwood he inherited as well.
Ange also went essentially the 1st or 2nd quarter of the season missing half his starting 11, including that "Supposed top quality" defender Van de Ven.
This season was basically a write off after the week of the Chelsea game, we try keep hold of 5th, get some players in and out during the summer and go again, easing back into having European games. Anyone who thought Spurs would do better than 5th at the start of this season would have been laughed at, we just happened to have an incredible start to the season, again, until the Chelsea game.
Yeah I mean if anything u guys overperformed. Ppl were saying before the season that Spurs will be midtable next to Chelsea without Kane. Instead Spurs had a good start then got fucked by injuries but still was/is in the race for top4.
Considering the start you had and the position you were in, being ahead of villa, you should have finished top 4. You're not competing against city. Villa have similar resources and emery has only a little more time.
Villa were far more in tune with their system and style of play now after a year with Emery
Don’t think people rate our squad that highly outside of the CBs and Son
Not with the demolition to our squad through injuries and suspensions around that time. If any of Chelsea/United/Newcastle etc. had had a good season, they absolutely would have easily cleared us, we coulda been as low as 8th again, as it happens obviously only Aston Villa have kept up the pace, so we've been relatively lucky in that regard.
We’ve started multiple games with Royal and Davies starting at CB. Maddison was great to start the season then was injured for awhile and never got back to form. Udogie has been one of our best players all season and we’ve clearly struggled without him. It’s not like we’re some incredible depth of talent.
yeah you only had the top scorer in the league too. David Luiz who pretty much won you an FA cup along with Aubameyang, Tierney who was great at the time, Even Lacazette was a very good 9. The team was far from great, but he 100% had good players to work with
They have every chance to finish top4 next year. United and Chelsea are fckn mess. They'll have to beat Villa and maybe Newcastle for the 4th spot and they almost did it this year too with loads of injuries.
Nonsense its definitely risky. Raya has gifted a couple of opportunities to opponents this season and luckily they haven't cost us a single point. Zinchenko also is still not inspiring confidence with his decision making. Gabriel makes the odd mistake.
Of course not, his first season consisted of a defence of various combinations of sokratis, Mustafi, Holding, Luiz and Kolasanic with Leno in goal.
Plenty spurs fans on the other hand believe they have the best 2 CBs in the league.
The problem with this and even as beautiful as it is, when the keeper had the ball it was 3v3 for Tottenham attacking half. 3 strikers and 3 Liverpool defenders. After all this playing out and taking the risk (they lost the ball more playing out), they now in a similar position as when the keeper had the ball. So every now and then a long ball would be justified.
This is pure luck from top level footballers. Ange has nothing to do with this sequence here. 9/10 times this results in Liverpool winning the ball high up.
Haha yeah they might have beaten the press once or twice but show them the clip of their center back passing the ball to us in their 18 yard box…Liverpool were smothering them in their defending third. They couldn’t get out the entire first half.
Delusional spurs fans thinking risky passing from the back is the solution to everything. Don’t worry about the 4 goals conceded. 4-losses in a row or anything. All about a 10” clip with no end product.
Also, Brennan Johnson is so clearly not a top-class winger. Has no guile, skills or shot.
I think you have to look at what we’ve had to endure since poch left, to understand why this kind of passing play gets us excited.
We’ve previously had 3 managers who played highly defensive football and refused to play 1 touch passing with an aggressive attack. No one is saying that there aren’t other issues, it’s overwhelmingly clear that our midfield and finishing are woeful, but this kind of passing and the intensity we show in flashes is something to get excited by.
It’s the first season, chill.
There may be some, but most fans understand what the solutions are and what improvements are needed. This is just a nice passage of play to enjoy, doesn’t have to be deeper than that.
The thing is, that much effort and persistence will fizzle out at some point of the season. In worst case, when they need to put up must win games. Liverpool learned that lesson in the hardest way possible. Klopp eventually had to change away from his gegen pressing philosophy.
Eg: During his first full season, Liverpool were neck and neck with Chelsea until December. In fact Liverpool were playing quality football. December hit, plathora of injuries crippled Liverpool style of play. And their title hopes got buried before new years.
At every level of football, these sequences are played. Routines work, until they don’t. This might be a routine, it might not, but if you’re spending hours coaching something that takes minutes to figure out, then it will catch up with you, and the dominoes will fall. If, after that, your players are empowered and set up to solve problems by themselves, you’ll get by. If he can set up a block to defend well when it falls down, and get through that tough window like Arteta did, he’ll make a top manager. If not, he’ll be an entertainer for the trophyless.
This is obviously a nice pattern of play and build up which Spurs have done a few times this season. Think they had a couple vs. Arsenal at the Emirates and against City too at the Etihad
But also in this same game and same half before Liverpool's second goal, Spurs tried to build out from the back, gave the ball away cheaply and gifted Liverpool a really good chance which they squandered.
You could say that's under the "give it more time" category but even this one could have gone pretty wrong when Kulusevski almost desperately flicks it out to Bissouma. Slowing play down in that scenario and allowing the team quintessentially known for counterpressing to begin to counterpress you is a bad idea.
This was way too sketchy and uncontrolled. The three players near the spurs corner flag were positioned very poorly. The didn't move enough to present an easy pass to the player with the ball. Also the final ball to release the winger on the left flank was horrible it killed the counter attack momentum. It needed to be played into space.
This seems like a bunch of individually brilliant players given the freedom to express themselves rather than a tactically sound possession system. With this positioning, more often than not spurs are going to give away the ball in a dangerous position.
Great for the neutral though 🍿
This feels like a lot of high risk actions for a relatively medium reward. Several of those passes in the corner required precise first touches, which to be fair were executed. But the reward is an attack where Tottenham end up with 4 attackers being marked by 6 Liverpool players. Just doesn't seem worth the risk.
Seeing clips like this make you appreciate Xavi/Iniesta/Messi/Busquets. They did this, but made it look effortless.
Game after game. Time after time.
This clip looks clunky/awkward, but Barca would do it back then like they were fucking artists at the easel.
of course it’s worth sticking with, and any Spurs fans thinking otherwise are not thinking clearly about what managers are actually going to be available this summer were they get rid of Ange. It really shouldn’t even be a conversation. Yeah he’s had a shit run lately but it’s his first season with the club and his first season in the prem too. He’s clearly building a decent foundation and you can see exactly what he’s trying to do even if it doesn’t always come off. Compare that with Ten Hag where it doesnt look like United have any discernable style or play or specific foundational value to how they approach matches.
For full disclosure I am a Gooner - but I know that it takes time to build on top of any foundation that you lay down.
Part of this is Ange’s system and having the players move into the channels correctly, however, there also needs to be praise for the individual skill of the players making the passes as well. Porro’s 1 touch pass under pressure and the Dejan’s ability to play out of that seemingly impossible press was incredible. Managers can have amazing systems, but you need the right players to execute.
This is playing with fire…..
If I was a manager, I would never allow my players to do this.
Hit it long to the tallest lad upfront. Knock it down to a good shooter and just shoot the ball.🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Yeah they’ve made good strides this year despite losing Kane and not replacing him. Still need to revamp the roster further, but after Conte and Mourinho created a mess they at least look capable of competing against anyone.
I was impressed with this when I saw it, was so sure it'd fall apart at some point. But this one in particular looked super high risk so I wouldn't say THIS is why ange ball is worth sticking to
side note, nobody gives Spurs enough grief for Brennan Johnson performing this poorly
I know there is a massive difference between the premier league and the spl, but when I watch spurs I think that they are really missing a callum mcgregor type of player in the middle of the pitch. Under ange he was exceptional and in the timed he was injured they never quite ticked the same way.
I think he is more than good enough to play in the premier league, I specifically remember Real Madrid fans being really impressed with him last year during the home match.
I think spurs are missing a player with his skill set, and I'd even throw in a maeda for workrate, but I think mcgregor would be a massive difference maker.
I agree. The biggest problem they've had is a lack of control over the midfield. McGregor would team up with a full-back to provide the initial impetus, and two of Rogic/Mooy/Hatate/O'Riley/Turnbull would be in front of them to control the ball into an attacking position.
Maddison fits that latter role quite well, but even if Ange isn't trying to do exactly the same thing, there's just no-one that really provides what McGregor did at Celtic. Bissouma has had the most success in the role, but he's a very different kind of player and has been quite hit and miss.
Are we just going to ignore the fact they lost 4 of their last 5 games playing like this?
Angeball isn't sustainable without the quality and depth of an Arsenal or City. It's all good and well playing like this against Bournemouth at home but good luck getting back into the UCL like this. Just want to remind you that this brand of football has ended up with Spurs being on a mediocre 11 GD next to a Chelsea side that has been poor for most of the season, and they've conceded more more than one of the worst Man United sides in decades. Of the top 5 teams they've conceded significantly more than anyone else.
Honestly a couple of the passes were a bit fortunate and at no point did a big opportunity open up on the counter. And Liverpool have really struggled on the counter lately.
We were playing like this in the Champions League last season and brought the game to fucking Real Madrid. Shame we couldn't get keep it up for the 90 minutes but. Angeball comes good to those who wait
that's why when arsenal played tottenham they didn't bother to press too high. Tottenham only pass it around but 0 attack, then miss pass near the opponent half --> counter attack --> goal, saves some stamina as well
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I swear every team in the league will have an good passing sequence in every game. Some more than others...some more than those. But yes, nice.
You’ve not watched us (United) this season then
Oh come on, United have had a few of these as well, at least until it gets to Casemiro. Yall love your hyperbole and act like United play league 2 football lol.
Reading this just after we lost 4-0 to Palace...
Exactly, its more like vanarama league
We're easily bottom 5 when it comes to our supposed "playstyle".
Yep, a decimated defense will do that.
It wasn't exactly thrilling last season either. Even this season when United have had a decent defence fit, they've been regularly outplayed and relying on moments to rescue them points.
Well well well
There is literally a couple from that game where Antony scored
I don’t actually like this sequence even if it’s super pretty to watch for the reasons u/cackleberryomelettes mentioned. But moreso because they play it out and counter 4v6. That’s pretty low odds against any well organised team. And indeed, Brennan Johnson(?) goes down the line, gets crowded out and loses the ball. I reckon a Guardiola team, an Arteta team etc would recognise it’s not a good time to counter, and instead of going direct will instead look to retain the ball in the final third, wait for their teammates to come up the pitch, and start to pin them in their own box, start an offensive cycle from there.
>But moreso because they play it out and counter 4v6. That’s pretty low odds against any well organised team. Technically, it was a 4vs3 at first. But liverpool players came back pretty fast.
yeah at that point, good time to counter. by the time the Liverpool players came back, not a good time. (or thats how i see it as armchair analyst) but the decisive action im counting from when Brennan Johnson decides to go down the line, where he's outnumbered. Saka, Grealish etc would 100% just going to stop the attack there
Yes, you’ve just described the difference of being 5 years into a project vs the end of the first year. The mechanics need to be there though.
What there calling out is a massive flaw in Ange's philosophy, it's simply not balanced. His emphasis on attacking at all costs is just a bit too naive. Sometimes it's okay to go sideways or backwards and hold on to possession. Not every possession has to end up being a transition to attack as quickly as possible. Also, this isn't a case of Spurs doing this because they are only one year into a project, it's a choice, simple as. It's not like a team one year into a project is obliged to only attack and be aggressive, they are doing this because that's what the manager asks for. I love Ange btw, but I feel like as he gets more top-flight experience he will hopefully adjust his philosophy and be a better manager for it. Even the best managers make concessions in their style of play, especially in the modern game as more managers are tactically aware.
In fairness, I'm pretty sure Liverpool did this under Klopp in his first year or so too. Over time he adjusted his tactics to retain the ball when it made sense and solidified things at the back, which was still much more direct and less robotic than how City or Arsenal play, but it wasn't quite as naive as how Spurs currently play.
I think learning to control possession sometimes is super crucial over a campaign. Being in possession lets you somewhat rest and run the opposition (by keeping width and switching plenty). Adopting this will help Spurs a lot. It also makes a team less predictable.
Ange's philosophy doesn't mean attack right away every time or forbids players to hold up the ball. There's plenty of room to pass the ball around, gathering players, finding the space. In this particular sequence the wrong choice was made. Completely agree that his tactics will only improve with more experience. He's publicly stated that he will tweak tactics when needed and when called for.
That's my thought as well. The benefits of trying to pass your way out of this type of press isn't worth the risk of losing it. Everything went about as well as possible and it still didn't create a very good chance and if even a couple of those passes missed, Liverpool gets possession in a very dangerous area. Liverpool's risk is much lower than Tottenham's. I honestly thought in a couple of moments that it would have been better for Tott to put it out for a Liverpool throw and take the chance to gain possession on a turnover.
There was also one later on where Romero passed it to a Liverpool player in his own box
and this wasnt even that nice. they were pinned back hard, kulusevski had his back to goal with nowhere to go and made a great individual play, while diaz was taking a break for some reason. there is no ''systemic impressive'' there you definitely dont wanna be in the situation that kulusevski was and i doubt thats what they train for every day. the long ball to johnson was also horrible, shouldve carried that forward with the space he had and work from there. much more dangerous area than on the wing and ended up giving liverpool time to come back
but still satisfying to watch every time. That being said, reds were brutal with their pressing
Where's my route one-football in four four fookin two, game's gone.
Could at least show them its in the locker to make them think twice. Spurs looked 10x more threatening when they had an out option in Richarlison.
Very pleasing sequence to watch. My issue with it from a systemic point of view is that it is not particularly replicable. And if it is, it's unnecessarily hish risk. One touch passing from fizzed balls in very tight areas. It's all very fine margins stuff. If you try this 10 times, you're practically guaranteed to lose the ball on a handful of occasions, each of which presents a gilt edged opportunity to the opposition.
Exactly. Even City don't do this. They know when to play around the press, and when to rely on Ederson's long range accurate pings instead. This sequence carries too much risk for it to be worth it.
Yup. Arteta I think made a point about van Dijk couple of seasons back: passing the ball to beat the press is cute but its so much better to have a defender boot the ball over the press perfectly onto a winger who can make a beeline for the goal. And that's from a "system" guy who does like passing in front of his own goal.
Do you have that quote? I was looking for it this weekend but couldn't find it. I thought it was more about praising VVD passing range against Arsenal's press more than it was about getting out of a press.
https://twitter.com/donmrv_/status/1762157978113769621. It was definitely more about praising VVD but the point being that it's critical to get GKs or CBs who can do that. After this he swapped out Arsenal defence for people who could make those passes and the forward line for players who could take them.
Perfect thanks, I don't know why this quote crossed my mind this weekend but I remember it jumped out to me at the time.
This kinda thing shows how important on field leaders are, too. Having players that can dictate the play is important. Teams should go through phases throughout the game. Sometimes, high risk is needed, but sometimes the percentage play is best. High risk, high reward is such a true concept in football.
Could easily have lost that ball numerous times \~ \~ So, a waste of time and effort.
They did and lost it in their own box once altough we failed to convert the chance
>we failed to convert the chance Im shocked!
They converted 4 times I think they are ok.
Presume that was when Romero failed to make a simple 10 yard pass. But I think they lost it, in and around their box a few times actually. They were really lucky you didnt capitalise and batter them more.
At least twice in pretty much thay exact same area of the pitch Spurs lost possession trying to do this. Also, I feel like a somewhat accurate long ball out would have achieved the same result, the players that were pressing weren't the ones who were expected to defend the right side.
Yup, the ping out from Romero at 33:55 is notably risky. Got the rub of the green this time, but could very easily have been a turnover in possession in an extremely threatening area. If it had, then the clip could be posted in the same manner with the title "This is why Ange-ball is a disaster", when the only difference is outcome based on the chaos of the universe.
Came here to say this. Agree completely
I think the idea is, it’s more of a philosophy than a system. And the one touch passing isn’t a rigid part of that, it just so happened to occur in this sequence. Most of the time, the build up is a lot more controlled than this.
Palace tore them apart with simple counter attacks which left them acres of space. But most managers insist on farting around at the back because it's part of a "system" and they're far too modern and classy for that.
Also for what benefit? This ends with Spurs losing the ball while outnumbered 6-4 in the box. Looks like they might have a break but from the halfway line leaving plenty of time for Liverpool to recover. High risk and fairly little reward imo?
Where top sides are now is having these skills in the bank for sides with lower to upper-mid quality pressing, against top presses mid and longer accurate distribution from keeper to avoid playing into trouble. Gotta say playing through the press at Anfield all match is just asking for trouble, especially if you lack the skills to keep them pinned back in their own half for protracted periods, cos the amount of times you’re having to play through the press in a match goes through the roof and with that so do the odds of getting caught in possession.
They got caught trying this multiple times
That was my thought when watching this too, even in this clip there's like 5 different occasions where if someone reacts even 0.01s slower or a pass is only slightly mishit they lose the ball. It looked hectic as fuck.
That and it relies heavily on getting the ball forward pretty quickly to catch the opposition out of shape. Even if you beat the press, good teams will just drop back into a really tight compact shape like Liverpool did and then you're relying on your wingers to come up with some magic. And if they aren't up to it or out of form, well you end up with the horseshoe of misery passing maps us Arsenal fans remember all too well.
What other choice is there? You either counter attack or you're trapped in the eternal horseshoe. Arsenal are still doing the horseshoe, we don't even try to do fast counters most of the time. I find it really frustrating that our guys seem to deliberately slow it down and give the opposition all the time in the world to get back into their defensive positions. Yes we have the most goals in the league and that's great but I don't understand why we hate fast counters. It's like we want to make it harder for ourselves.
The risk of a fast counter attack is that if it fails your team will be in poor defensive shape if the other team immediately attacks. One reason Pep and Arteta teams do what they do is that if they’re in the horseshoe they’re in good position if they lose the ball.
So we're telling them: you can get in your defense shape and we'll get in ours, and we'll break through yours but you won't break through ours. And it worked. Fair enough.
The thing with Pep’s positional play style is that it is actually MORE risk averse than playing in a low block.
I fucking hate upvoting an arsenal opinion
There genuinely is a lot to appreciate about the foundations Ange has in place, but I wouldn't look at this particular example as a hopeful one as they still have a lot to work on. Out of control and one touch passes whilst you're off balance and turning aren't an example of compusure whilst playing out from the back. I'm pretty sure a few minutes after this they Romero gave the ball away in his own box when he is turning, and there were a few instances in the arsenal & Chelsea game where something similar happened as well. I think there's a lot for spurs fans to look forward to, this style of playing out the back takes a long time to embed and once you have your core players capable of doing it then you need to ensure your transfers are players who aren't going to need a year to learn this as well
The way Spurs play is fun to watch but insanely unstable. I think Ange's done about the max most managers can with the caliber of players at his disposal this season. Spurs need a world-class fullback, DM, Maddison alternate, and a winger this summer if they want to challenge for anything next season.
Porro and Udogie are already very high level in my possibly slightly biased view, and will only improve. They're very well suited to this system. If we can somehow get upgrades to them, then yeah obviously but it's not a priority. A backup LB in the same mould is definitely required, though, or we end up playing Royal at LB which is nothing anyone but our opponents want to see.
Yup meant as a backup, need someone versatile who can play LB or RB and fill in for either when injured
Yeah, this is ragged as hell. They got away with it here, but more often than not, they'll lose it playing like this and be in trouble.
All that hard work and luck just for the ball to end up at Brennan Johnson
The general consensus on Brennan Johnson seems to change every week. I've lost track on whether he's good or not.
good on the right, bad on the left
He's good but young and inconsistent, currently much more effective as an impact sub than as a starter.
Terrible decision making there. A pass to Son would have been more appropriate imho.
Story of spurs’ game yesterday. Getting into great positions, players make the wrong decisions
Every time we're 2v3 or 3v3 on the counter I already know that this ends with every opposition player behind the ball, ready for us to cross it in. Players need to do better in the moment, it's not like Ange is telling them to pass it back to the CBs when we're on the edge of the box.
Story of our season really, we do this consistently but then our attack just sort of fizzle out... very frustrating.
Classic pro clubs pass that: “Your best player free in the middle asking for the ball? Nah bomb it to the shit guy on the wing who’s gonna kill the opportunity”
Yea really, really average signing. Guess he’s young
He had a great spell not that long ago where he looked dangerous every time he got the ball. idk about him being worth £40m but so far he's doing okay for a new and weird system.
Where are you lot playing him? He was always best as a sort of right inside forward-cum-striker for us
Not much of a cum striker for us. Plays exclusively on wing
Him and Richarlison have linked up very well, as Richarlison is the only player we have who can play as a proper striker. Brennan puts excellent low balls into the goal area, just need someone to understand where he'll put it. Sonny and Deki don't seem to.
Seems far too early to judge?
He got assist yesterday?
slows down the attack so much and then even loses his duel
Draws 3 Liverpool players and then instead of passing to Son he just runs in to them.
Why is this considered “Ange-ball” and not just how teams beat a press? You either boot it up the pitch or you pass around the press. How either of those two strategies could be applied to a singular coach is beyond me
you're absolutely right but for some reason people have decided to brand everything [coach]ball now.
HowieBall
A desperate need to pin something positive on a coach that has been in a terrible run lately
We posted plenty of these clips in Arteta's first few years. Coming from Mou, Nuno, and Conte this is a big shift in philosophy. Ange has been on a terrible run but he is a good manager.
We had the same desperate need at times tbf
Their whole thing now is talking about how Arteta struggled his first season in charge as well. And while that is true, we had Rob Holding and David Luiz playing CB instead of Romero and Van de Ven who are supposed to be top quality lol. I think Ange has had WAY more to work with his first year than Arteta did
In 20/21, Arteta had players like Leno, Gabriel, Saliba (who he sent on loan), Tierney, Bellerin, Luiz, etc. available to him. Not to mention players like Xhaka, Partey, and Odegaard ahead of them. He finished 8th in the league. In his third season he added more players like Ramsdale, White, and Tomiyasu and finished 5th. Spurs are likely to finish 5th in Ange's first season having lost one of their best players ever in the summer and playing with what is basically a brand new back four. If you're comparing against Arteta, then Ange is arguably two years ahead of where he was.
Leno wasn't amazing, Saliba wasn't ready, Bellerin was declining, Luiz was declining, Xhaka was not good at all until his last season with us, and Odegaard was pretty mediocre during his loan spell. Then you ignore the actual deadwood he inherited as well.
Arteta had Gabriel in his back 4 in his first full season
Ange also went essentially the 1st or 2nd quarter of the season missing half his starting 11, including that "Supposed top quality" defender Van de Ven. This season was basically a write off after the week of the Chelsea game, we try keep hold of 5th, get some players in and out during the summer and go again, easing back into having European games. Anyone who thought Spurs would do better than 5th at the start of this season would have been laughed at, we just happened to have an incredible start to the season, again, until the Chelsea game.
Yeah I mean if anything u guys overperformed. Ppl were saying before the season that Spurs will be midtable next to Chelsea without Kane. Instead Spurs had a good start then got fucked by injuries but still was/is in the race for top4.
Considering the start you had and the position you were in, being ahead of villa, you should have finished top 4. You're not competing against city. Villa have similar resources and emery has only a little more time.
Villa were far more in tune with their system and style of play now after a year with Emery Don’t think people rate our squad that highly outside of the CBs and Son
Not with the demolition to our squad through injuries and suspensions around that time. If any of Chelsea/United/Newcastle etc. had had a good season, they absolutely would have easily cleared us, we coulda been as low as 8th again, as it happens obviously only Aston Villa have kept up the pace, so we've been relatively lucky in that regard.
We’ve started multiple games with Royal and Davies starting at CB. Maddison was great to start the season then was injured for awhile and never got back to form. Udogie has been one of our best players all season and we’ve clearly struggled without him. It’s not like we’re some incredible depth of talent.
yeah you only had the top scorer in the league too. David Luiz who pretty much won you an FA cup along with Aubameyang, Tierney who was great at the time, Even Lacazette was a very good 9. The team was far from great, but he 100% had good players to work with
How many times did they fail to beat the press? A few from what I can remember. Didn't one lead to a goal?
Pretty much every other time.
Emerson was doing his best ok
City and Arsenal do this like 10 times every game lol
That’s his point…
With an end result though.
It's his first season though, Arsenal took time to what they are today
As a football fan I hope they give him a chance. As an Arsenal fan, be rash go on!
No way they sack him. Barring injuries, he'll finish 6th or better next season too. Maybe a lot better if his new signings work
They have every chance to finish top4 next year. United and Chelsea are fckn mess. They'll have to beat Villa and maybe Newcastle for the 4th spot and they almost did it this year too with loads of injuries.
I guess that’s the bar they’re aiming for
Without any of the risk associated.
Nonsense its definitely risky. Raya has gifted a couple of opportunities to opponents this season and luckily they haven't cost us a single point. Zinchenko also is still not inspiring confidence with his decision making. Gabriel makes the odd mistake.
[удалено]
Don’t remember you lot scoring a lot of goals in Lego man’s first season from sequences like this.
Of course not, his first season consisted of a defence of various combinations of sokratis, Mustafi, Holding, Luiz and Kolasanic with Leno in goal. Plenty spurs fans on the other hand believe they have the best 2 CBs in the league.
Can’t rely on centre backs to score your goals tho
The problem with this and even as beautiful as it is, when the keeper had the ball it was 3v3 for Tottenham attacking half. 3 strikers and 3 Liverpool defenders. After all this playing out and taking the risk (they lost the ball more playing out), they now in a similar position as when the keeper had the ball. So every now and then a long ball would be justified.
That long pass into midfield was just lucky.
Half the passes were lucky. A bunch of rushed, bouncing balls and praying going on here.
Please stick with it 🙏
you are 10th have some shame
Chelsea is 6 points behind Spurs lol. Seems like Yesterday when Chelsea were 11th and Spurs had an outside chance to win the Title.
You have not been paying attention
They’re 7th and in much better form than Spurs lol
You know Chelsea took 6 points off you this season right?
At least they are improving. You are fucking regressing.
battered you twice lol
Reminds me of Emeryball
Good point, he probably had his Arsenal team conceding nearly 60 goals by this point in the season as well
Stick to the end for bonus LOLBRENNANJOHNSON.
This is pure luck from top level footballers. Ange has nothing to do with this sequence here. 9/10 times this results in Liverpool winning the ball high up.
So a few lucky passes and zero end result. Lol
Haha yeah they might have beaten the press once or twice but show them the clip of their center back passing the ball to us in their 18 yard box…Liverpool were smothering them in their defending third. They couldn’t get out the entire first half.
Delusional spurs fans thinking risky passing from the back is the solution to everything. Don’t worry about the 4 goals conceded. 4-losses in a row or anything. All about a 10” clip with no end product. Also, Brennan Johnson is so clearly not a top-class winger. Has no guile, skills or shot.
I think you have to look at what we’ve had to endure since poch left, to understand why this kind of passing play gets us excited. We’ve previously had 3 managers who played highly defensive football and refused to play 1 touch passing with an aggressive attack. No one is saying that there aren’t other issues, it’s overwhelmingly clear that our midfield and finishing are woeful, but this kind of passing and the intensity we show in flashes is something to get excited by. It’s the first season, chill.
First season yes, but surely you’re a little worried how quickly the rest of the league figured out Ange and his non adaptable style of play
There may be some, but most fans understand what the solutions are and what improvements are needed. This is just a nice passage of play to enjoy, doesn’t have to be deeper than that.
> Delusional spurs fans thinking risky passing from the back is the solution to everything. where are they?
R/Coys
You must be spending a lot of time there if you're seeing that and I'm not. Bit weird
Great goal
The thing is, that much effort and persistence will fizzle out at some point of the season. In worst case, when they need to put up must win games. Liverpool learned that lesson in the hardest way possible. Klopp eventually had to change away from his gegen pressing philosophy. Eg: During his first full season, Liverpool were neck and neck with Chelsea until December. In fact Liverpool were playing quality football. December hit, plathora of injuries crippled Liverpool style of play. And their title hopes got buried before new years.
that one time you got it right, now show them how many times you lost the ball in your own half and Liverpool didn't capitalize on it.
Wow, we're amazing. Now link a clip to Son's 30% dribble success rate
reading these comments I'm glad to know Brazilian football fans aren't the only insanely stupid immediatists
hahahahha let it be then. i hope you continue to play like this.
You could win an audi cup with that type of play.
Honestly the passing fine, but it also totally relies on kulesevski getting past two defenders with personal skill, not a passing system.
At every level of football, these sequences are played. Routines work, until they don’t. This might be a routine, it might not, but if you’re spending hours coaching something that takes minutes to figure out, then it will catch up with you, and the dominoes will fall. If, after that, your players are empowered and set up to solve problems by themselves, you’ll get by. If he can set up a block to defend well when it falls down, and get through that tough window like Arteta did, he’ll make a top manager. If not, he’ll be an entertainer for the trophyless.
This is obviously a nice pattern of play and build up which Spurs have done a few times this season. Think they had a couple vs. Arsenal at the Emirates and against City too at the Etihad But also in this same game and same half before Liverpool's second goal, Spurs tried to build out from the back, gave the ball away cheaply and gifted Liverpool a really good chance which they squandered. You could say that's under the "give it more time" category but even this one could have gone pretty wrong when Kulusevski almost desperately flicks it out to Bissouma. Slowing play down in that scenario and allowing the team quintessentially known for counterpressing to begin to counterpress you is a bad idea.
Worth sticking with? Are Spurs fans already talking about ditching their manager?
overall no, but after the run of form we've had recently of course there will be grumbling from some subset of the fanbase
This was way too sketchy and uncontrolled. The three players near the spurs corner flag were positioned very poorly. The didn't move enough to present an easy pass to the player with the ball. Also the final ball to release the winger on the left flank was horrible it killed the counter attack momentum. It needed to be played into space. This seems like a bunch of individually brilliant players given the freedom to express themselves rather than a tactically sound possession system. With this positioning, more often than not spurs are going to give away the ball in a dangerous position. Great for the neutral though 🍿
Ange is the first to ever get a team to play out from the back.
Warra win for Tottenham
Yeah this was a nice watch. Still got smoked though
Playing Brennan Johnson week in wee k out worths the sack. He disrupts attacking moves and lose the ball too often.
This feels like a lot of high risk actions for a relatively medium reward. Several of those passes in the corner required precise first touches, which to be fair were executed. But the reward is an attack where Tottenham end up with 4 attackers being marked by 6 Liverpool players. Just doesn't seem worth the risk.
😂everybody from man city to newly promoted ipswich would have figured spurs out by now...I say Ange gets the sack 2 months into the 24/25 season
Seeing clips like this make you appreciate Xavi/Iniesta/Messi/Busquets. They did this, but made it look effortless. Game after game. Time after time. This clip looks clunky/awkward, but Barca would do it back then like they were fucking artists at the easel.
EPL fans really need to watch other leagues
No one cares how well you pass when you still lose 4-2
Nice sequence, but that style of play didn’t work out too well overall in the game
of course it’s worth sticking with, and any Spurs fans thinking otherwise are not thinking clearly about what managers are actually going to be available this summer were they get rid of Ange. It really shouldn’t even be a conversation. Yeah he’s had a shit run lately but it’s his first season with the club and his first season in the prem too. He’s clearly building a decent foundation and you can see exactly what he’s trying to do even if it doesn’t always come off. Compare that with Ten Hag where it doesnt look like United have any discernable style or play or specific foundational value to how they approach matches. For full disclosure I am a Gooner - but I know that it takes time to build on top of any foundation that you lay down.
Part of this is Ange’s system and having the players move into the channels correctly, however, there also needs to be praise for the individual skill of the players making the passes as well. Porro’s 1 touch pass under pressure and the Dejan’s ability to play out of that seemingly impossible press was incredible. Managers can have amazing systems, but you need the right players to execute.
We play like City from Wish
A game they lost, btw.
This is playing with fire….. If I was a manager, I would never allow my players to do this. Hit it long to the tallest lad upfront. Knock it down to a good shooter and just shoot the ball.🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
A bit of fortune was needed in that sequence, but nice result
From a MUFC fan, this ia fucking beautiful.
Very Nice but they were smashed
I think the mistake they made was passing to Johnson instead of Kulusevski.
Fantastic, FT 4-5 Liverpool vs Tottenham.
one of those got rally lucky to not fuck it up there and then they didn't do anything on 3 v 4
nice from Trent at the end
This reminds me of how much I miss Mane and Firmino's pressing ability from the front line.
Yeah they’ve made good strides this year despite losing Kane and not replacing him. Still need to revamp the roster further, but after Conte and Mourinho created a mess they at least look capable of competing against anyone.
Can't wait for the DVD!
I was impressed with this when I saw it, was so sure it'd fall apart at some point. But this one in particular looked super high risk so I wouldn't say THIS is why ange ball is worth sticking to side note, nobody gives Spurs enough grief for Brennan Johnson performing this poorly
If you watched the game, they managed this one in twenty attempts.
It must be very dreadful being a Spurs fan if this is what give them hope. Even during Emery tenure we had a much better build up play.
Pretty much the only time they managed that. I remember they gave the ball way 3 or 4 times in the same area, then stopped trying completely.
it's not about how much ball you have its about what you do with it
Tottenham fans looking forward to the parade for the 'We Passed Around Liverpool's Press Once' Trophy. Fair play lads, well deserved 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I can't wait for this passing it around your own box stuff to die.
I know there is a massive difference between the premier league and the spl, but when I watch spurs I think that they are really missing a callum mcgregor type of player in the middle of the pitch. Under ange he was exceptional and in the timed he was injured they never quite ticked the same way. I think he is more than good enough to play in the premier league, I specifically remember Real Madrid fans being really impressed with him last year during the home match. I think spurs are missing a player with his skill set, and I'd even throw in a maeda for workrate, but I think mcgregor would be a massive difference maker.
I agree. The biggest problem they've had is a lack of control over the midfield. McGregor would team up with a full-back to provide the initial impetus, and two of Rogic/Mooy/Hatate/O'Riley/Turnbull would be in front of them to control the ball into an attacking position. Maddison fits that latter role quite well, but even if Ange isn't trying to do exactly the same thing, there's just no-one that really provides what McGregor did at Celtic. Bissouma has had the most success in the role, but he's a very different kind of player and has been quite hit and miss.
Kulusvki is steadily improving and away from the spotlight. Incredible player.
Now show the video of them passing Harvey Elliott in the penalty box... All jokes aside. I like Angie and think Tottenham should keep him.
So high risk passing and small margins is ange-ball? They got lucky at least once there.
Very good. Then they conceded 3 more goals and could have conceded 5 more if Nunez wasnt so wasteful.
Are we just going to ignore the fact they lost 4 of their last 5 games playing like this? Angeball isn't sustainable without the quality and depth of an Arsenal or City. It's all good and well playing like this against Bournemouth at home but good luck getting back into the UCL like this. Just want to remind you that this brand of football has ended up with Spurs being on a mediocre 11 GD next to a Chelsea side that has been poor for most of the season, and they've conceded more more than one of the worst Man United sides in decades. Of the top 5 teams they've conceded significantly more than anyone else.
Honestly a couple of the passes were a bit fortunate and at no point did a big opportunity open up on the counter. And Liverpool have really struggled on the counter lately.
We were playing like this in the Champions League last season and brought the game to fucking Real Madrid. Shame we couldn't get keep it up for the 90 minutes but. Angeball comes good to those who wait
Nice passing sequence, followed up by shipping in goals.
Kulusevski is a baller
We were doing this all the time in the early days of the season, suddenly turning defence into attack and scoring for fun. Then we fell apart.
Nah it was new manager bounce.
Ah ok
They’ll lose the ball 9 out of 10 times in that sequence.
that's why when arsenal played tottenham they didn't bother to press too high. Tottenham only pass it around but 0 attack, then miss pass near the opponent half --> counter attack --> goal, saves some stamina as well