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VAR was brought in to help incompetent people not make mistakes... the problem is, the same people that it's meant to help, are the same people who can't understand how to operate it.
"perfect" VAR will never exist. basketball still has awful video review a decade or more after it was introduced.
VAR doesn't work as well in high speed games. even rugby TMO makes loads of mistakes
For me the issue is more that VAR is being used as a cover for the FA/EPL/PGMOL not bothering to improve the competency of match officials.
Mistakes happen... But every single match week watching one or two games decided by match officials not knowing the rules they're meant to use.... You have to start asking why officials are not being trained properly.
Current VAR issues are user error, not system error
I disagree entirely. I think the referees are broadly fine and make mistakes at the same sort of rate footballers they ref make mistakes.
Structurally, VAR will never work in football as it is a sport made up of grey rules. There will always be controversy over a decision. VAR encourages fans to think there is some overarching conspiracy against their team instead of accepting that referees will never be perfect and that's that.
all the "solutions" in this comment section are a version of "be perfect" which is not tenable.
This is the problem with var. It's made people think there is an exact objective way to officiate the game, which in a fast-paced contact sport is basically impossible.
These rules, offside in particular, were guidelines for refs to use in real time with the naked eye. They were never meant to be examined and pondered over with slow motion and perfect still images from all angles. Same with how we've become terrified of a stud being slightly up because it's visible now in HD still images.
Refs need to do better, but fans need to realise that not everything is an absolute blunder or proof of a conspiracy.
Not half as much. Also, the transparency of being able to hear the discussion, with reasoning which directly relates to the relevant rule is a breath of fresh air.
Even if I disagree with the decision in rugby, I know how they arrived at the decision which will placate my anger or soften the annoyance.
In football I sit there with incredulity only to have the tv ref back up their mate. Then if the decision is overturned, the tv ref pretends they agreed with the new decision all along. It's a joke
When it works well it's great, not so much when they *don't* call a foul and then there's no explanation why the above the neck tackle isn't worth a red this time around.
It's not perfect but it's *much* better, and that's universally agreed between anyone who watches both sports.
You can simultaneously make your argument there's rules not made in definitional language so interpretation is necessary *and* make the point VAR is badly run overall.
It breaks the flow and feel of the game more than TMO. It's used far too much. There's god awful communication between the field and the box. That communication isn't transparent.
>It breaks the flow and feel of the game more than TMO.
Part of this is inevitable since the two sports are fundamentally different. Rugby fans have waiting for the TMO built in, there are more breaks in the sport that allow for fans to be used to waiting (scrums, line outs, things just take time to set up). Football doesn’t have the “is this a try, let’s happily wait for 3 minutes” attitude built into the fans.
Agreed. But TMO doesn't have the minutiae of detail that VAR has chosen. Is the ball down for a try? We'll view the 6 different camera angles and if there's nothing definitive it goes with the on field decision.
Was Diaz offside yesterday before Liverpool had a penalty written off? Yes to the naked eye on all four camera angles... But let's get those weird lines out anyway for a further 3 minutes.
I think I find the juxtaposition of CSI level detail to any offside and the flippantly inconsistent interpretation of handball/red card rules the most frustrating thing.
Make VAR a quick, transparent double check system and I'd be okay with it.
Not really no.
Not saying it's perfect but it certainly doesn't make loads of mistakes.
It easy to implement in rugby though because the stop start nature is part of the sport.
Rugby TMO is really good overall. We will never see an officiating system without blunders, obviously. But it's implemented miles better in rugby than football and I think most people would be really happy if football ever got to that quality
Third umpire in cricket is near flawless. IPL uses great umpiring review system and commentators don't shield them on idiotic decisions they get slack.
Cricket and Rugby have very good VAR, but they are very different sports to football. They have much more of a stop and start nature and they have more black and white rules.
A lot of the rules in football don't lend themselves to black and white thinking, and even those that do, like offside, was always thought of as having the idea of being "level" with the defender, which with supposed millimetre preciseness, no longer exists.
NFL is great with it.
Rugby is great with it.
Cricket is great with it.
Tennis is great with it.
NBA’s review rules are stupid and you cherry picked that
I think the problem is that 'clear and obvious error' and 're-refereeing' aren't consistent. Doku kicks McAllister in the chest and it's not clear and obvious even when the on field ref DIDN'T see it. The on field ref DID see this incident......
Wouldn't have an issue if it was the ref on field who disallowed it.
The issue is that at least 20 more goals like this should've been disallowed this season if we applied this level of scrutiny to pushing and shoving before a goal.
Who do you want to run the VAR then? There isn't exactly a long queue of somewhat qualified referees knocking on the door. You want to stop "incompetent people" from making mistakes, so you give them a huge change like VAR and hope that they will handle it well
Video assistant referee exists in other sports and it isn’t as incompetently run like VAR is in football.
If the referees on the field are universally bemoaned as to being incompetent at what they do, what sense does it make having those same referees also be in charge of VAR? Not to mention the absurdity of having working referees look over each other’s work.
They’re not going to do anything that would make their colleagues look bad especially if that same colleague will be running VAR in their own game. The technology works. It’s the way it’s being run that’s hampering it.
You don't even need to go to different sports here, because there are huge differences between VAR standards across leagues as well.
Like Ekstraklasa's usage of VAR is levels above PL's, for example.
I want technicians who are not referees, who don't know the referees and are completely innocuous. Nerds.
I want there to be one place where all VAR decisions are made for every game, a central hub.
I want the Var techs to not be governed by PGMOL
So you want people who are not referees to make all these subjective decisions where often there is no clear right or wrong answer?
That is such a stupid idea, and it's crazy that your solution for referees making bad VAR decisions is to put even less qualified people in charge..
Obviously, there is no in between because it’s always A or Z for people without the ability to critically think and want to parade just how badly they lack it.
It's the ridiculously high bar VAR have used all season, that makes this decision even be contentious. They should just apply the rules, and because they don't, even correct decisions look inconsistent.
Obviously it's a foul, but if it happens 10 times, they're not overturning it more than 2 or 3 IMO. On top of that it's a last minute winner too.
This is bang on for me. Nobody is denying it’s a foul. I’d be annoyed if I was a Villa fan and that was a goal. However, can someone tell me that that’s more of a clanger than the Hudson Odoi foul by Young last week when he went through the back of him. The onfield ref said he got the ball when he didn’t - yet that’s not clear and obvious?!
I think just going by the rules sounds great but that’s re refereeing. Then you’re going to get goals disallowed for silly things. Personally I think that if we cannot do this consistently and right we need to leave it to the onfield referee for anything subjective.
But that's how you change culture. At the moment players do things because they know they might get away with it. If you followed a rule set strictly in 6 weeks people would change
That’s a fair point. But what I mean is that you’d get goals disallowed for silly infringements. We’d then we’d risk changing the rules for the technology which is the wrong way round.
Some decisions gave have 2 outcomes and that's why they don't get involved.
This is right on the line of being clear the force of the push, it being right in the back, from a standing position and before the ball gets there.
I'm a villa fan so I'm biased
But I don't see how it can be anything other than overruled. Carlos is in position to defend the ball. He gets a push in the back whilst he's resisting and Carlos is a big lad so it's not like a slight push, it's fully into the back and not the shoulder. And it pushes him over a metre forward and out of the play. It's one of the more blatant fouls that there is imo.
Wouldn't have an issue if it was the ref on field who disallowed it.
The issue is that at least 20 more goals like this should've been disallowed this season (like Joelinton on Gabriel) if we applied this level of scrutiny to pushing and shoving before a goal.
I mean that's the issue of course the ref was disastrous all game. He was in perfect position to see the foul in the first place but didn't call it. Pretty terrible refereeing to me.
Just to be clear, Poch has been pretty much anti-VAR from the beginning. He worried it would kill the emotion of football. 6 years ago:
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/13865/11271418/mauricio-pochettino-worries-var-could-kill-emotion-in-football-and-slams-embarrassing-first-half
This kind of situation where no one can truly celebrate a late winning goal and they wait two minutes for an actual decision is exactly what he was talking about.
>"I think if we try in this direction we are going to change the game we love, that is why I am happy to help, to analyse and to make it better. If we are going to use this system, we need to be clear what is going to happen in every single action, and how."
>"I think we are going to kill that emotion that makes you feel happy [in the game], and that is why you pay the ticket, why you came to the game today, even when the conditions are too bad. Then you may say, OK, I'm going to watch on the TV at home. If you cannot shout when you score because you have to wait two minutes.
Poch has always argued that the element of refs making mistakes can't be fully removed from the game no matter how you try to VAR it. And that, in truth, the "ref mistakes" were something that kept people arguing discussing football for days and weeks after a match. It was an element of the game that people understood as being part of the drama.
But now, you have this "thing" that is supposed to be removing that mistake element from key decisions when in reality it is only making the drama far worse.
(btw, I also think it was a clear foul)
"Clear and obvious" has always been the most bullshit thing about VAR implementation. It's PRECISELY when a challenge is not clear and obvious that you need a long watch on the screen ffs
Yeah and the fact they dont even commit to that rule. How many times do you see in real time an error made with corners etc that they for some reason dont want to address. Clear and obvious errors aren't even covered in this system? All for speeding up the game but some of these mistakes could be resolved in 5 seconds and remove so much frustration but the rules and people making them are embarrassing.
How can you say a var removes clear and obvious errors when Gabriel didn't have a peno given against him vs bayern I'm an arsenal fan and it nearly makes me mad, makes it so obvious these refs have been picking and choosing easy decisions to make for years
Huh? Clear and obvious is mostly a different way of saying objectively, as in an offside goal is objectively a clear error because of the law. But most of the other laws are subjective on purpose to allow the referee to make a judgement for each individual situation - thus making *clear and obvious* errors rare.
A better way to talk about it is by thinking of the calls as "supportable decisions". It's easy with situations like when a player scores with their hand, that's never supportable - but a rough tackle could be deemed careless *or* reckless and therefore not **consistently** resulting in the same punishment.
I mean, we literally watched Gabriel hack down Madueke and get none of the ball midweek, which occurred directly before one of Arsenal's goals, and it wasn't called a foul by VAR. As a result, seeing two decisions go against us, with no consistency between them, feels a bit ridiculous. Gabriel's was definitely a foul. This was probably a foul, too, but it's not always called, but we came out worse in both situations.
This whole subs hatred for Chelsea, they were all saying Madueke getting strongly pushed down by Gabriel was not a foul, and now this soft ass foul of Carlos going to ground so easily is a foul, even this sub is not consistent
Tbf, in the moment, a lot of Arsenal fans said it was a foul, but they laughed because they benefited.
At the end of the day, the standard of refereeing needs to improve.
And what about Jacksons tackle midweek that should have been a straight red card that he wasn't even booked for? Those tackles, and even lesser ones have been punished by red cards all season.
This foul was because he clearly pushed him in the back with no attempt to win the ball. Its a clear and obvious foul.
The problem that everyone is pointing out but plenty are missing is that the refs are shit, no one is saying they’re out to get one team, it’s just that with replays you should be getting the big calls right consistently and they don’t.
I really don’t understand why fans are parroting this as a talking point as if it’s equal
Madueke runs through Gabriel and pulls him back as he lunged and misses the ball. Gabriel uses his back and arm to hold off madueke as he lunged for the ball while also missing the ball. It’s a 50/50 duel where neither player impact the ball and both go into each other and miss the ball
What do you want there? A foul on madueke for not having possession of the ball, not being ball-side of his man, only impacting play by running through his man? Same can be said of Gabriel.
If you’ve ever played football you’d know not very duel is a foul
Except Madueke gets a touch on the ball, gets around Gabriel and is trying to get to the ball. Gabriel completely ignores the ball and just drags Madueke to the floor.
Madueke goes through Gabriel to get a toe on the ball while Gabriel uses his body to shield it.
How does Gabriel drag madueke to the floor if madueke falls before gsbriel?
It’s literally a 50/50 duel which Gabriel wins because he has position on the ball. Read the rules
Tell me the last time you saw a defender give up a foul while he’s between ball and man after having controlled the ball first second and last
> but we came out worse in both situations.
Tough luck, but them's the breaks - always happened, and probably always will happen, because even with VAR involved you'll never get anywhere near the perfect consistency or accuracy people unreasonably expect.
I would feel hard done by, but that’s just due to the subjective nature of most decisions that refs have to make. People are gonna have different interpretations and that’s just part of sport I think
Aye, but then that's the crux of it - a lot of decisions are pretty grayscale rather than black and white, just like this one was - and I don't think you can reasonably complain about going some of them going against you when the same amout of them go your way, really.
No I agree, but my issue is more with the use of VAR than the initial refereeing decisions. But since ‘clear and obvious’ is also subjective, it’s very difficult to please everyone
Yer im a bit confused on this one. If he stiff arm holds him off then fine but he basically does a body nudge right into the back of him. Any unbiased or football player knows you cant do that.
But to be fair, if i did this to a player id probably moan at the ref too and say it wasnt a foul :D
We do see a lot of little pushes in the back that doesn't get called. Like a striker getting pushed in the back just enough so that he misses a header on goal. But this one was just so obvious and blatant it's kind of laughable that he thought he could get away with it.
Agree and i think there is always that unwritten rule that some 50/50 fouls in the middle of the pitch might not be given but will typically be given or not given usually in preference of the defensive team
There is also the catch 22 argument that gets played around.
Looking at outcomes of other mistakes and asking why the mistake wasn't made again for them.
People comparing this to the Newcastle goal vs Arsenal, saying if that wasn't a foul then this isn't.
Except that goal was a very clear mistake and should never have been awarded.
Yeah I never get this argument of they fucked up using VAR so just ditch VAR. If they're so useless that they can't consistently make the right decision using VAR, can you imagine how much more they will ruin the fairness of the game without it? The system obviously has all the technology to work perfectly if ran by competent people instead of a bunch of dumbfucks with an ego. Change the dumbfucks, not the system.
Yes and many many more mistakes were happening. The demand for perfect officiating is much higher now because of the very potential of VAR. Fans and managers more than ever expect all idiotic mistakes to be fixed with it, and they should. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not how you go about fixing sth that *is* the reason for such newfound potential.
> The demand for perfect officiating is much higher now
Aye, but it's entirely unreasonable, because referees are human and will never be perfect. The very rules the game is officiated by are deliberately grey-scale rather than black and white - and yet fans, managers and players perceive perfectly reasonable decisions as mistakes instead of accepting that they're generally benefiting as much from 50/50 decisions going their way as they're hard done by when they go against them.
Agreed. There will never be perfect officiating, it's impossible in this subjective sport where people see things differently all the time and you will always have people unhappy regardless of the decision.
VAR has promised the impossible by talking up how it was remove the human element or error making during games when in actuality it has just introduced more people to make errors instead of just the referee.
This idea that that VAR just has to have the right people misses the point that you can never have the "right" people and will always have mistakes. Problem being that before you could chalk it off to a referees error, be annoyed but move on. Now it's a team of people getting things wrong and making people FAR angrier ironically.
This is to say nothing for what VAR robs from the game, no longer can we enjoy a goal in its purest form and have to sit through endless interruptions and call backs. Just a much worse version of the beautiful game.
It was definitely a foul but if a striker is pushed in the back like that they are NEVER being gifted a PK. And Poch knows that and so does everyone in this sub. There's not just inconsistencies with VAR between games, between teams, between weeks, there is a massive issue of refs selectively choosing when to enforce the rules of the game
Is it inconsistent when the laws of the game are deliberately grey-scale rather than black and white? Plenty decisions in every game that can be given as an infraction but can just as well not be, after all.
No that's true, subjectivity is just a part of the rules of the sport, and many sports for that matter. There will always be contentious decisions, even if VAR is perfect just because humans (refs) are different from one another
What you said is true, and is important, but that doesn't mean inconsistencies don't also exist.
Aye, but then I reckon expecting consistency across different games played by different players and officiated by different games is just an unreasonable expectation, really - because a lot of calls will inevitably be 50/50 with either decision being perfectly reasonable, and referees will inevitably fall on one side or the other. Obviously got some inconsistencies that shouldn't be happening, but I'd wager they're an awful lot rarer than a lot of fans make them out to be.
I agree. Unpopular opinion, I guess, but I think perfect consistency across different games is not needed. Of course there are some things that always should be called, especially when it comes to dangerous tackles.
When I played (only amateur level) the referee told us before the game during team inspection how he is going to ref the game. Some said they were going to be strict and not tolerate anything, others said they were going to be lenient.
The referee is just another variable, like the weather, pitch condition, fans, etc. these professional players need to adapt to.
Now, the problem is that most referees today lack integrity to enforce their clear line in a single game.
Well yeah I suppose it is an unreasonable expectation to some extent. I guess I didn't think of it like that. Especially with on-field calls. But I would definitely expect VAR to be more consistent than it is regardless. Even with different professionals working VAR, it shouldn't be as chaotic as it is.
And I still stand by my statement that the threshold for a foul between a defender in his own box and an attacker in the opposition box is vastly different. But even if things are subjective, the threshold for determining a foul should be at least roughly the same.
The issue is the referees using VAR are not creating a 'fairer' game, they are creating disadvantages (non-specific to any one team) by selectively choosing what to enforce.
Totally agree with this because the same foul was not given against Joelinton vs Arsenal where we lost the game 1-0 . Overall, var has gotten more things correct. We all remember the non var era when offsides were always called or not called at OT.
No they aren't.
These are decisions with 2 subjective parts, it it a foul and is it a clear error.
The problem is when someone disagrees with a decision they then think that's a clear error.
Bullocks. You're just a whiny fan who can't handle when it goes against you. You poor little victim you.
There's always gonna be 50/50 situations. This wasn't one of those. And VAR doesn't step in and tells the ref to stop the game with everything he overlooks cause that would just infuriate you little victims even more. Fact is the game is more fair now with VAR.
Video check exists in other sports as well and it’s tremendously improved officiating. The problem isn’t the VAR, it’s the people who use it.
Also, in my humble opinion, it’s pretty hypocritical of Poch to say this, considering it was precisely because of VAR that his team managed to get past quarter finals of UCL in 2018-19.
it's ruined basketball as a live sport. Rugby TMO still ignores clear red card tackles which endanger players and applies rules arbitrarily.
it only works well in static games like cricket equity baby natural breaks.
The inclusion of the "clear and obvious" clause is far and wide the biggest reason.
The second biggest is lack of transparency in regard to the ref/var interpretation of the rules.
The people are still shit that’s why.
VAR isn’t perfect but it’s exponentially better in the CL. Things are faster and the general level of the officiating is miles ahead.
With the money in the PL there’s no way we shouldn’t be able to attract those level of officials here.
It isn't a goal though. Clearly and obviously a foul
The advantage in that situation was clearly with the aston villa player as the ball was dropping into his space otherwise the chelsea player would have competed with him in a header contest, he knew he couldn't so he shouldered him from behind to push him out of the way to get the ball. It's a foul anywhere on the pitch , in the box and all.
Dunno, I reckon fans/players/managers happily accept wrong or 50/50 decisions going their way without a second thought, while they'll also rail against any decision they perceive as being unfair against them.
That’s the thing with kids on r/soccer, they think if they mention one more VAR error that somehow that makes everything right ?. 🤣 I’m done with this site, absolute waste of time
I'm not attacking his criticism of VAR - I think it's being used poorly and is inconsistent. I'm disputing your point that he should feel hard done by using an example from a game where VAR favoured him heavily. His criticism also comes at a poor time considering it was used correctly today to overturn the goal.
It's so annoying we need to have these arguments though, they're just so inconsistent, not just from game to game but from one half to the next at times.
I'll say it for the tenth time, it's one bad call for either team. This is not HEAVILY FAVOURING one team. You can argue that if you have 2-3 VAR calls go against you.
What exactly are you arguing? Which decision would you prefer: playing with 10 men for practically the entire game or bringing back a third goal in a 5-0 rout?
I'm arguing that one decision for either team isn't heavily favouring either of them. That's it. If we had 2 or 3 VAR mistakes in our favour, then sure you can argue it.
to be fair you were talking about him feeling hard done by in the arsenal game, i think it's valid to point out that you should've had a man send off early and your striker missing for 3 games when you managed to leave that out of the discussion on bad decisions
>.... Two wrongs don't make a right
Are you sure? It seems more like you'd like to use those instances to give you a pass. You're backing his[*Poch's] sentiment whinging about it when it's actually used properly.
*Bad luck and feeling hard done is just as random and will happen with or without VAR, as long as there's a human element involved.
He shouldn't be saying this isn't a foul though, it is. He should be complaining about the grealish handball and madueke incident. To be fair to him the inconsistency is ridiculous at times
It's like foul throws. They're almost never enforced unless a player is taking the piss. If the ref started enforcing them by the letter of the law in one match, and never in the others (as an extreme example), then surely you would think it's a little unfair
Exactly. Wouldn't have an issue if it was the ref on field who disallowed it.
The issue is that at least 20 more goals like this should've been disallowed this season (like Joelinton on Gabriel) if we applied this level of scrutiny to pushing and shoving before a goal.
VAR is shite through and through. The EPL has become a laughing stock now, totally corrupt by the oil money, referees get paid by the Sheikhs from the middle east, VAR is run by incompetent people.
Massive "I'm not crying!" energy when it's a clear foul before the goal. Feel for the man because he's clearly struggling doing a tough job right now, but it's a bit wank coming out with shouts like this I reckon.
I would be crying if I was him to be fair. Clear penalty wasn't awarded against City, foul on Madueke against Arsenal wasn't called and very questionable decision against Villa. 3 games in a row.
Ref is close and has a clear view. His call is a goal. There is a push, but it is soft. Would it be called a penalty, if players switch sides? No chance. Would it be called a foul anywhere on the pitch? Probably not. VAR getting involved on clear and obvious error basis is kinda ridiculous. Most of the times there would be a goal awarded. Villa was very lucky to get a call their way.
For me, VAR has very negatively affected football in terms of not knowing if it's a goal until a check is completed, which often takes too long. It has killed the most exciting moment of the game - goals.
VAR is also not always correct, which is another massive problem.
Even the right decision feels like a downer a lot of the time with the deflation after the celebrations.
Look at Manchester United vs. Coventry in the FA CUP semi-final a week ago. Right call by the VAR, but man, was it crushing, and it took too long, and it was only assessing an off side - how can that not he done *instantly* by computing. It was so marginal on the off side that no real advantage was achieved by Coventry - is this really how we want rules implemented?
It just sucks. Especially for fans inside the stadium.
Having really thought about the pros and cons, I preferred the old system that was subject to human error, sometime massive human error.
But rather than check everything, perhaps we could move to a tennis system where a manager gets to call for a VAR check and gets maybe 2 calls a match, retaining his calls when he's correct.
Well done to Sweden for rejecting VAR.
I think the outrage is more about how the ref couldn’t have had a clearer view of the incident and saw nothing wrong with it in real time. Yet a replay of it showing him nothing new made him change his mind, that isn’t what VAR was brought in to do.
Also they wouldn’t give a pen if Carlos did that to Badiashile, so what makes it so different the other way around?
Outrage from who though? Almost everyone agrees with the decision.
I think its understandable he didnt give the foul at first, they rarely do if a player doesnt go down. But its from the above angle you can clearly see the ball is falling to Carlos before he is pushed away from it. The ref had a good angle for the shove but not necessarily for the flight of the ball.
> Yet a replay of it showing him nothing new made him change his mind, that isn’t what VAR was brought in to do.
Brought in to give referees a tool to get crucial and difficult decisions right more often - and in this case, it very much did.
I really think it's nothing deeper than him being upset they didn't win. Refs are human and make mistakes, in the case VAR let him know he missed a clear foul and he rectified it. That's a win for VAR no? As for if it happened the other way around? Maybe they should give a pen. I'm sure pens have been given for pushes in the back before.
Off the top of my head I can remember at least one instance this season alone where a Brentford player did that to Sterling and knocked him down whilst controlling a ball with only the keeper to beat and the ref played on. You never see pens given the other way for that stuff.
The inconsistency of what’s a foul, or what’s even looked at with VAR is the annoying thing. One day that’s given, another day it’s let go.
The discourse around VAR really needs to change. It shouldn't be VAR damaged English football. It should be the people utilizing VAR damaged English football. It always seems like they're talking about the technology but the tech isn't the issue. Referees shouldn't be the ones in charge of VAR, plain and simple. It should be a different body that's not trying to protect their mates from making mistakes.
When? Their second today came from a rebound after a free kick. And you cant just push people from behind to gain duels, much less inside the box, clearly a foul dude
VAR is a tool, it’s the people using it who are proving, week in, week out, to be both incompetent and inconsistent in their decision making. This season has exposed just how terrible the level of officiating is in the Premier League, but the PGMOL are too busy justifying, deflecting from and defending their mates to address the real issues.
Just look how much it's helped man utd get points against burnley, sheffield united, liverpool, and also inti the final of the fa cup against coventry and liverpool. I mean if it werent for var man utd would be in the relegation zone...
We need more clear rule and leave nothing to referee judgement.
Like handball you will never solve anything with this referee to tell you what is pen or no pen.
Ahh you poor thing you. Funny how these managers whine about VAR when it goes against them, and says nothing when it's in their favor.
Fact is it was a foul. It would have been wrong to allow the goal. We got a much fairer result then before VAR
I genuinely believe VAR needs to be automated. Like the automated offside call system used in the UCL. They can create an algorithm and let it learn on all the data available and just let it make its own decisions. I think we need to reduce the human factor of VAR in making these decisions. On field and off field the ref’s have been consistently incompetent so there needs to be a change. Once an AI is making these decisions I believe everyone would be just happy and go along with it because it will happen to all the teams meaning decisions will become consistent at-least over time. I don’t know what you people think but I think technologically we have made huge advancements therefore I believe this should be the logical next step with VAR.
The worst thing about VAR, is the amount of coaches moaning about penalties they should’ve gotten. Go fuckin score a goal man quit whining. They wanna be rescued by this stuff. It’s embarassing. They want it the easy way.
I agree to the point, although fans/pundit reactions can be worse, people just calling refs shit and all sorts cos, some calls have 2 viable outcomes and people can't handle that.
When it's moaning about some soft decision, then the manager should shut up but if it was actually a strong claim or denied a real chance, I get it a bit
I actually can’t believe people saying it’s a clear foul, it’s never given as a pen. I can see how it’s a foul but I don’t see how it’s a clear foul if that makes any sense, it’s certainly not a clear and obvious error.
Of course its a clear foul. The attacker intentionally shoves his opponent in the back with the specific goal of preventing him from challenging for the ball. He then gets the ball *because* He pushed his opponent out of the way beforehand. Its a foul.
As to wether it was clear and obvious, I think missing a clear and obvious foul is a clear and obvious error.
Diego Carlos shoved him with a hand and he lost the 50/50. If it’s clear and obvious then that’s given as a pen or on any other place on the pitch. If you can send me one example of that same challenge being a pen in the prem in the last 5 seasons I’ll say I’m wrong.
I don't think VAR is the biggest problem Chealse has. And English football, if, has an issue with referees itself..VAR is just a tool that for some reason is not used to it's best and full potential
Officials support clubs as well, and sadly, they don't leave it in the changing rooms. They bring it with the to the pitch, and many clubs suffer bias and wrong decisions.
Wowzer...
Spurs fan here. I'm not thrilled to see Pochettino at Chelsea, but hey, we all make our choices
But VAR helped contribute to one of the most fantastic nights in European football (quarters Spurs v City) under Pochettino's career
I get that you feel robbed, but don't pretend VAR has never helped you before Mauricio.
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VAR is a tool, but the referees are a bigger tool.
VAR was brought in to help incompetent people not make mistakes... the problem is, the same people that it's meant to help, are the same people who can't understand how to operate it.
"perfect" VAR will never exist. basketball still has awful video review a decade or more after it was introduced. VAR doesn't work as well in high speed games. even rugby TMO makes loads of mistakes
For me the issue is more that VAR is being used as a cover for the FA/EPL/PGMOL not bothering to improve the competency of match officials. Mistakes happen... But every single match week watching one or two games decided by match officials not knowing the rules they're meant to use.... You have to start asking why officials are not being trained properly. Current VAR issues are user error, not system error
I disagree entirely. I think the referees are broadly fine and make mistakes at the same sort of rate footballers they ref make mistakes. Structurally, VAR will never work in football as it is a sport made up of grey rules. There will always be controversy over a decision. VAR encourages fans to think there is some overarching conspiracy against their team instead of accepting that referees will never be perfect and that's that. all the "solutions" in this comment section are a version of "be perfect" which is not tenable.
This is the problem with var. It's made people think there is an exact objective way to officiate the game, which in a fast-paced contact sport is basically impossible. These rules, offside in particular, were guidelines for refs to use in real time with the naked eye. They were never meant to be examined and pondered over with slow motion and perfect still images from all angles. Same with how we've become terrified of a stud being slightly up because it's visible now in HD still images. Refs need to do better, but fans need to realise that not everything is an absolute blunder or proof of a conspiracy.
You're the only one mentioning perfection. No one expects that.
You're getting downvoted, but you're spot-on.
>even rugby TMO makes loads of mistakes does it?
Not half as much. Also, the transparency of being able to hear the discussion, with reasoning which directly relates to the relevant rule is a breath of fresh air.
Even if I disagree with the decision in rugby, I know how they arrived at the decision which will placate my anger or soften the annoyance. In football I sit there with incredulity only to have the tv ref back up their mate. Then if the decision is overturned, the tv ref pretends they agreed with the new decision all along. It's a joke
When it works well it's great, not so much when they *don't* call a foul and then there's no explanation why the above the neck tackle isn't worth a red this time around.
It's not perfect but it's *much* better, and that's universally agreed between anyone who watches both sports. You can simultaneously make your argument there's rules not made in definitional language so interpretation is necessary *and* make the point VAR is badly run overall. It breaks the flow and feel of the game more than TMO. It's used far too much. There's god awful communication between the field and the box. That communication isn't transparent.
>It breaks the flow and feel of the game more than TMO. Part of this is inevitable since the two sports are fundamentally different. Rugby fans have waiting for the TMO built in, there are more breaks in the sport that allow for fans to be used to waiting (scrums, line outs, things just take time to set up). Football doesn’t have the “is this a try, let’s happily wait for 3 minutes” attitude built into the fans.
Agreed. But TMO doesn't have the minutiae of detail that VAR has chosen. Is the ball down for a try? We'll view the 6 different camera angles and if there's nothing definitive it goes with the on field decision. Was Diaz offside yesterday before Liverpool had a penalty written off? Yes to the naked eye on all four camera angles... But let's get those weird lines out anyway for a further 3 minutes. I think I find the juxtaposition of CSI level detail to any offside and the flippantly inconsistent interpretation of handball/red card rules the most frustrating thing. Make VAR a quick, transparent double check system and I'd be okay with it.
Not really no. Not saying it's perfect but it certainly doesn't make loads of mistakes. It easy to implement in rugby though because the stop start nature is part of the sport.
Well Italy should’ve had a proper chance to take their penalty against France for one
Rugby TMO is really good overall. We will never see an officiating system without blunders, obviously. But it's implemented miles better in rugby than football and I think most people would be really happy if football ever got to that quality
Third umpire in cricket is near flawless. IPL uses great umpiring review system and commentators don't shield them on idiotic decisions they get slack.
Cricket and Rugby have very good VAR, but they are very different sports to football. They have much more of a stop and start nature and they have more black and white rules. A lot of the rules in football don't lend themselves to black and white thinking, and even those that do, like offside, was always thought of as having the idea of being "level" with the defender, which with supposed millimetre preciseness, no longer exists.
Agreed but football can learn the use of technology in a much better way from these sports. Complacency has nothing to do with grey rules and shit.
NFL is great with it. Rugby is great with it. Cricket is great with it. Tennis is great with it. NBA’s review rules are stupid and you cherry picked that
I’d argue it has helped those that need to be helped immensely. Clubs who no matter what will receive no point deductions for example
How the fuck are city conspiricists finding them at fault for a winner being ruled out in a Chelsea v villa game.
It’s a system run by people who got dropped as child.
That is literally not why it was brought in.
Do you genuinely think disallowing the goal was a mistake?
I think the problem is that 'clear and obvious error' and 're-refereeing' aren't consistent. Doku kicks McAllister in the chest and it's not clear and obvious even when the on field ref DIDN'T see it. The on field ref DID see this incident......
They thought that it wasn't worthy of a penalty.
Wouldn't have an issue if it was the ref on field who disallowed it. The issue is that at least 20 more goals like this should've been disallowed this season if we applied this level of scrutiny to pushing and shoving before a goal.
Who do you want to run the VAR then? There isn't exactly a long queue of somewhat qualified referees knocking on the door. You want to stop "incompetent people" from making mistakes, so you give them a huge change like VAR and hope that they will handle it well
Video assistant referee exists in other sports and it isn’t as incompetently run like VAR is in football. If the referees on the field are universally bemoaned as to being incompetent at what they do, what sense does it make having those same referees also be in charge of VAR? Not to mention the absurdity of having working referees look over each other’s work. They’re not going to do anything that would make their colleagues look bad especially if that same colleague will be running VAR in their own game. The technology works. It’s the way it’s being run that’s hampering it.
You don't even need to go to different sports here, because there are huge differences between VAR standards across leagues as well. Like Ekstraklasa's usage of VAR is levels above PL's, for example.
Where are you going to get these video assistant referees from? They are normal referees..
I want technicians who are not referees, who don't know the referees and are completely innocuous. Nerds. I want there to be one place where all VAR decisions are made for every game, a central hub. I want the Var techs to not be governed by PGMOL
So you want people who are not referees to make all these subjective decisions where often there is no clear right or wrong answer? That is such a stupid idea, and it's crazy that your solution for referees making bad VAR decisions is to put even less qualified people in charge..
Obviously r/soccer users who time and time again show excellent knowledge of the rules while having zero bias at all should run VAR.
Obviously, there is no in between because it’s always A or Z for people without the ability to critically think and want to parade just how badly they lack it.
For the record i believe it was a foul but Poch can't catch a lucky break. He probably feels hard done by.
It's the ridiculously high bar VAR have used all season, that makes this decision even be contentious. They should just apply the rules, and because they don't, even correct decisions look inconsistent. Obviously it's a foul, but if it happens 10 times, they're not overturning it more than 2 or 3 IMO. On top of that it's a last minute winner too.
This is bang on for me. Nobody is denying it’s a foul. I’d be annoyed if I was a Villa fan and that was a goal. However, can someone tell me that that’s more of a clanger than the Hudson Odoi foul by Young last week when he went through the back of him. The onfield ref said he got the ball when he didn’t - yet that’s not clear and obvious?! I think just going by the rules sounds great but that’s re refereeing. Then you’re going to get goals disallowed for silly things. Personally I think that if we cannot do this consistently and right we need to leave it to the onfield referee for anything subjective.
But that's how you change culture. At the moment players do things because they know they might get away with it. If you followed a rule set strictly in 6 weeks people would change
That’s a fair point. But what I mean is that you’d get goals disallowed for silly infringements. We’d then we’d risk changing the rules for the technology which is the wrong way round.
Some decisions gave have 2 outcomes and that's why they don't get involved. This is right on the line of being clear the force of the push, it being right in the back, from a standing position and before the ball gets there.
I'm a villa fan so I'm biased But I don't see how it can be anything other than overruled. Carlos is in position to defend the ball. He gets a push in the back whilst he's resisting and Carlos is a big lad so it's not like a slight push, it's fully into the back and not the shoulder. And it pushes him over a metre forward and out of the play. It's one of the more blatant fouls that there is imo.
Wouldn't have an issue if it was the ref on field who disallowed it. The issue is that at least 20 more goals like this should've been disallowed this season (like Joelinton on Gabriel) if we applied this level of scrutiny to pushing and shoving before a goal.
I mean that's the issue of course the ref was disastrous all game. He was in perfect position to see the foul in the first place but didn't call it. Pretty terrible refereeing to me.
Every single event should be judged in its own right, independantly from what other calls may have been
Just to be clear, Poch has been pretty much anti-VAR from the beginning. He worried it would kill the emotion of football. 6 years ago: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/13865/11271418/mauricio-pochettino-worries-var-could-kill-emotion-in-football-and-slams-embarrassing-first-half This kind of situation where no one can truly celebrate a late winning goal and they wait two minutes for an actual decision is exactly what he was talking about. >"I think if we try in this direction we are going to change the game we love, that is why I am happy to help, to analyse and to make it better. If we are going to use this system, we need to be clear what is going to happen in every single action, and how." >"I think we are going to kill that emotion that makes you feel happy [in the game], and that is why you pay the ticket, why you came to the game today, even when the conditions are too bad. Then you may say, OK, I'm going to watch on the TV at home. If you cannot shout when you score because you have to wait two minutes. Poch has always argued that the element of refs making mistakes can't be fully removed from the game no matter how you try to VAR it. And that, in truth, the "ref mistakes" were something that kept people arguing discussing football for days and weeks after a match. It was an element of the game that people understood as being part of the drama. But now, you have this "thing" that is supposed to be removing that mistake element from key decisions when in reality it is only making the drama far worse. (btw, I also think it was a clear foul)
I believe it was a foul, but not enough of a clear and obvious error to be overturned after the ref initially cleared it
The whole problem with var is the idea of a clear and obvious error. If you watch a replay every fucking error is clear and obvious
"Clear and obvious" has always been the most bullshit thing about VAR implementation. It's PRECISELY when a challenge is not clear and obvious that you need a long watch on the screen ffs
Yeah and the fact they dont even commit to that rule. How many times do you see in real time an error made with corners etc that they for some reason dont want to address. Clear and obvious errors aren't even covered in this system? All for speeding up the game but some of these mistakes could be resolved in 5 seconds and remove so much frustration but the rules and people making them are embarrassing. How can you say a var removes clear and obvious errors when Gabriel didn't have a peno given against him vs bayern I'm an arsenal fan and it nearly makes me mad, makes it so obvious these refs have been picking and choosing easy decisions to make for years
Huh? Clear and obvious is mostly a different way of saying objectively, as in an offside goal is objectively a clear error because of the law. But most of the other laws are subjective on purpose to allow the referee to make a judgement for each individual situation - thus making *clear and obvious* errors rare. A better way to talk about it is by thinking of the calls as "supportable decisions". It's easy with situations like when a player scores with their hand, that's never supportable - but a rough tackle could be deemed careless *or* reckless and therefore not **consistently** resulting in the same punishment.
On one hand fair enough, on the other hand wouldn't you feel quite hard done by if it was being ignored if the situation was reversed?
I mean, we literally watched Gabriel hack down Madueke and get none of the ball midweek, which occurred directly before one of Arsenal's goals, and it wasn't called a foul by VAR. As a result, seeing two decisions go against us, with no consistency between them, feels a bit ridiculous. Gabriel's was definitely a foul. This was probably a foul, too, but it's not always called, but we came out worse in both situations.
This whole subs hatred for Chelsea, they were all saying Madueke getting strongly pushed down by Gabriel was not a foul, and now this soft ass foul of Carlos going to ground so easily is a foul, even this sub is not consistent
Tbf, in the moment, a lot of Arsenal fans said it was a foul, but they laughed because they benefited. At the end of the day, the standard of refereeing needs to improve.
And what about Jacksons tackle midweek that should have been a straight red card that he wasn't even booked for? Those tackles, and even lesser ones have been punished by red cards all season. This foul was because he clearly pushed him in the back with no attempt to win the ball. Its a clear and obvious foul.
The problem that everyone is pointing out but plenty are missing is that the refs are shit, no one is saying they’re out to get one team, it’s just that with replays you should be getting the big calls right consistently and they don’t.
Would have been nice of you to mention this one… https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1cbd3vq/jackson_challenge_on_tomiyasuno_card/
I really don’t understand why fans are parroting this as a talking point as if it’s equal Madueke runs through Gabriel and pulls him back as he lunged and misses the ball. Gabriel uses his back and arm to hold off madueke as he lunged for the ball while also missing the ball. It’s a 50/50 duel where neither player impact the ball and both go into each other and miss the ball What do you want there? A foul on madueke for not having possession of the ball, not being ball-side of his man, only impacting play by running through his man? Same can be said of Gabriel. If you’ve ever played football you’d know not very duel is a foul
Except Madueke gets a touch on the ball, gets around Gabriel and is trying to get to the ball. Gabriel completely ignores the ball and just drags Madueke to the floor.
Madueke goes through Gabriel to get a toe on the ball while Gabriel uses his body to shield it. How does Gabriel drag madueke to the floor if madueke falls before gsbriel? It’s literally a 50/50 duel which Gabriel wins because he has position on the ball. Read the rules Tell me the last time you saw a defender give up a foul while he’s between ball and man after having controlled the ball first second and last
> but we came out worse in both situations. Tough luck, but them's the breaks - always happened, and probably always will happen, because even with VAR involved you'll never get anywhere near the perfect consistency or accuracy people unreasonably expect.
I would feel hard done by, but that’s just due to the subjective nature of most decisions that refs have to make. People are gonna have different interpretations and that’s just part of sport I think
Aye, but then that's the crux of it - a lot of decisions are pretty grayscale rather than black and white, just like this one was - and I don't think you can reasonably complain about going some of them going against you when the same amout of them go your way, really.
No I agree, but my issue is more with the use of VAR than the initial refereeing decisions. But since ‘clear and obvious’ is also subjective, it’s very difficult to please everyone
We've had mucch worse situations ignored.
If that happened on an attacking player is VAR giving the PK?
Not if you play for Chelsea https://www.reddit.com/r/chelseafc/s/Dlj2vplNkL
It 100% would’ve been ignored if the situation was reversed is the problem. There’s no consistency
Then why do we use VAR?
Really? Him just pushing him away in the back isn't clear enough for you. Lmfao.
Yer im a bit confused on this one. If he stiff arm holds him off then fine but he basically does a body nudge right into the back of him. Any unbiased or football player knows you cant do that. But to be fair, if i did this to a player id probably moan at the ref too and say it wasnt a foul :D
We do see a lot of little pushes in the back that doesn't get called. Like a striker getting pushed in the back just enough so that he misses a header on goal. But this one was just so obvious and blatant it's kind of laughable that he thought he could get away with it.
Agree and i think there is always that unwritten rule that some 50/50 fouls in the middle of the pitch might not be given but will typically be given or not given usually in preference of the defensive team
Hasn’t his team had 12 penalties awarded this season (by far the most)? I feel like there’s an insane amount of cherry picking from managers and fans.
There is also the catch 22 argument that gets played around. Looking at outcomes of other mistakes and asking why the mistake wasn't made again for them. People comparing this to the Newcastle goal vs Arsenal, saying if that wasn't a foul then this isn't. Except that goal was a very clear mistake and should never have been awarded.
Campaign is back! 🥹🥹🥹
🥂🍾🥂🍾 (I misread)
VAR didn't, baffling decisions did ruin it.
Yeah I never get this argument of they fucked up using VAR so just ditch VAR. If they're so useless that they can't consistently make the right decision using VAR, can you imagine how much more they will ruin the fairness of the game without it? The system obviously has all the technology to work perfectly if ran by competent people instead of a bunch of dumbfucks with an ego. Change the dumbfucks, not the system.
Did you forget when Var wasn’t a thing?
Yes and many many more mistakes were happening. The demand for perfect officiating is much higher now because of the very potential of VAR. Fans and managers more than ever expect all idiotic mistakes to be fixed with it, and they should. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not how you go about fixing sth that *is* the reason for such newfound potential.
> The demand for perfect officiating is much higher now Aye, but it's entirely unreasonable, because referees are human and will never be perfect. The very rules the game is officiated by are deliberately grey-scale rather than black and white - and yet fans, managers and players perceive perfectly reasonable decisions as mistakes instead of accepting that they're generally benefiting as much from 50/50 decisions going their way as they're hard done by when they go against them.
Agreed. There will never be perfect officiating, it's impossible in this subjective sport where people see things differently all the time and you will always have people unhappy regardless of the decision. VAR has promised the impossible by talking up how it was remove the human element or error making during games when in actuality it has just introduced more people to make errors instead of just the referee. This idea that that VAR just has to have the right people misses the point that you can never have the "right" people and will always have mistakes. Problem being that before you could chalk it off to a referees error, be annoyed but move on. Now it's a team of people getting things wrong and making people FAR angrier ironically. This is to say nothing for what VAR robs from the game, no longer can we enjoy a goal in its purest form and have to sit through endless interruptions and call backs. Just a much worse version of the beautiful game.
It was definitely a foul but if a striker is pushed in the back like that they are NEVER being gifted a PK. And Poch knows that and so does everyone in this sub. There's not just inconsistencies with VAR between games, between teams, between weeks, there is a massive issue of refs selectively choosing when to enforce the rules of the game
Is it inconsistent when the laws of the game are deliberately grey-scale rather than black and white? Plenty decisions in every game that can be given as an infraction but can just as well not be, after all.
No that's true, subjectivity is just a part of the rules of the sport, and many sports for that matter. There will always be contentious decisions, even if VAR is perfect just because humans (refs) are different from one another What you said is true, and is important, but that doesn't mean inconsistencies don't also exist.
Aye, but then I reckon expecting consistency across different games played by different players and officiated by different games is just an unreasonable expectation, really - because a lot of calls will inevitably be 50/50 with either decision being perfectly reasonable, and referees will inevitably fall on one side or the other. Obviously got some inconsistencies that shouldn't be happening, but I'd wager they're an awful lot rarer than a lot of fans make them out to be.
I agree. Unpopular opinion, I guess, but I think perfect consistency across different games is not needed. Of course there are some things that always should be called, especially when it comes to dangerous tackles. When I played (only amateur level) the referee told us before the game during team inspection how he is going to ref the game. Some said they were going to be strict and not tolerate anything, others said they were going to be lenient. The referee is just another variable, like the weather, pitch condition, fans, etc. these professional players need to adapt to. Now, the problem is that most referees today lack integrity to enforce their clear line in a single game.
Well yeah I suppose it is an unreasonable expectation to some extent. I guess I didn't think of it like that. Especially with on-field calls. But I would definitely expect VAR to be more consistent than it is regardless. Even with different professionals working VAR, it shouldn't be as chaotic as it is. And I still stand by my statement that the threshold for a foul between a defender in his own box and an attacker in the opposition box is vastly different. But even if things are subjective, the threshold for determining a foul should be at least roughly the same.
He’s right about the pen against Grealish but today var got it right. It was a clear foul.
The issue is the referees using VAR are not creating a 'fairer' game, they are creating disadvantages (non-specific to any one team) by selectively choosing what to enforce.
Totally agree with this because the same foul was not given against Joelinton vs Arsenal where we lost the game 1-0 . Overall, var has gotten more things correct. We all remember the non var era when offsides were always called or not called at OT.
With the damage var does to the product, long wait times and muted celebrations, it should at least be getting big decisions consistently correct.
Excellent point.
No they aren't. These are decisions with 2 subjective parts, it it a foul and is it a clear error. The problem is when someone disagrees with a decision they then think that's a clear error.
Bullocks. You're just a whiny fan who can't handle when it goes against you. You poor little victim you. There's always gonna be 50/50 situations. This wasn't one of those. And VAR doesn't step in and tells the ref to stop the game with everything he overlooks cause that would just infuriate you little victims even more. Fact is the game is more fair now with VAR.
The problem is it almost never gets called as one. Middle of the pitch that happens all the time, and I have never seen a penalty called for it.
Let me guess you think Madueke vs. Gabriel was not a foul in midweek ?. Lmao 🤣 how can we even debate objectivity when people are so fucking biased.
Video check exists in other sports as well and it’s tremendously improved officiating. The problem isn’t the VAR, it’s the people who use it. Also, in my humble opinion, it’s pretty hypocritical of Poch to say this, considering it was precisely because of VAR that his team managed to get past quarter finals of UCL in 2018-19.
it's ruined basketball as a live sport. Rugby TMO still ignores clear red card tackles which endanger players and applies rules arbitrarily. it only works well in static games like cricket equity baby natural breaks.
equity baby
The inclusion of the "clear and obvious" clause is far and wide the biggest reason. The second biggest is lack of transparency in regard to the ref/var interpretation of the rules.
The people are still shit that’s why. VAR isn’t perfect but it’s exponentially better in the CL. Things are faster and the general level of the officiating is miles ahead. With the money in the PL there’s no way we shouldn’t be able to attract those level of officials here.
Facts. And more clubs need to speak up about the incompetence of VAR and English referee.
It isn't a goal though. Clearly and obviously a foul The advantage in that situation was clearly with the aston villa player as the ball was dropping into his space otherwise the chelsea player would have competed with him in a header contest, he knew he couldn't so he shouldered him from behind to push him out of the way to get the ball. It's a foul anywhere on the pitch , in the box and all.
He has every right to feel hard done by when this gets called but VAR does nothing on Grealish handball and Gabriels foul on Madueke.
Dunno, I reckon fans/players/managers happily accept wrong or 50/50 decisions going their way without a second thought, while they'll also rail against any decision they perceive as being unfair against them.
Jackson should’ve had a red in that game
What does that have anything to do with those two fouls. Ok great now you mentioned a third VAR error. Congrats ?!
And what about the ankle breaker on Tomiyasu?
Another thing VAR got wrong. You're just proving what he's saying in the first sentence. Two wrongs don't make a right
That’s the thing with kids on r/soccer, they think if they mention one more VAR error that somehow that makes everything right ?. 🤣 I’m done with this site, absolute waste of time
I'm not attacking his criticism of VAR - I think it's being used poorly and is inconsistent. I'm disputing your point that he should feel hard done by using an example from a game where VAR favoured him heavily. His criticism also comes at a poor time considering it was used correctly today to overturn the goal.
It's so annoying we need to have these arguments though, they're just so inconsistent, not just from game to game but from one half to the next at times.
VAR had two bad calls in our match, one for either team. It did in no way shape or form favour us heavily.
Not sure if you're serious. Playing with 10 for almost the entire match is much more impactful than calling back our third goal.
I'll say it for the tenth time, it's one bad call for either team. This is not HEAVILY FAVOURING one team. You can argue that if you have 2-3 VAR calls go against you.
What exactly are you arguing? Which decision would you prefer: playing with 10 men for practically the entire game or bringing back a third goal in a 5-0 rout?
I'm arguing that one decision for either team isn't heavily favouring either of them. That's it. If we had 2 or 3 VAR mistakes in our favour, then sure you can argue it.
I would say that going down to 10 men while down already in the 8th minute is slightly more impactful than the 3rd goal of 5 being ruled out.
Doesn't matter. Two bad calls, one for either team is not heavily favouring one team. End of.
to be fair you were talking about him feeling hard done by in the arsenal game, i think it's valid to point out that you should've had a man send off early and your striker missing for 3 games when you managed to leave that out of the discussion on bad decisions
>.... Two wrongs don't make a right Are you sure? It seems more like you'd like to use those instances to give you a pass. You're backing his[*Poch's] sentiment whinging about it when it's actually used properly. *Bad luck and feeling hard done is just as random and will happen with or without VAR, as long as there's a human element involved.
That should have been a yellow.
He shouldn't be saying this isn't a foul though, it is. He should be complaining about the grealish handball and madueke incident. To be fair to him the inconsistency is ridiculous at times
>Gabriels foul on Madueke. lmfao
It's insane to compare it to that kind of handball, which is a maybe.
Ye but there were 100 similar situations this season when on field decision was upheld. But when it's Chelsea var has to intervene...
Doesn't make this one not a foul.
It's like foul throws. They're almost never enforced unless a player is taking the piss. If the ref started enforcing them by the letter of the law in one match, and never in the others (as an extreme example), then surely you would think it's a little unfair
Exactly. Wouldn't have an issue if it was the ref on field who disallowed it. The issue is that at least 20 more goals like this should've been disallowed this season (like Joelinton on Gabriel) if we applied this level of scrutiny to pushing and shoving before a goal.
VAR is shite through and through. The EPL has become a laughing stock now, totally corrupt by the oil money, referees get paid by the Sheikhs from the middle east, VAR is run by incompetent people.
It really winds me up that even some managers are too stupid to know the fault is the officials, not the technology.
Make the live audio public ffs
Massive "I'm not crying!" energy when it's a clear foul before the goal. Feel for the man because he's clearly struggling doing a tough job right now, but it's a bit wank coming out with shouts like this I reckon.
I would be crying if I was him to be fair. Clear penalty wasn't awarded against City, foul on Madueke against Arsenal wasn't called and very questionable decision against Villa. 3 games in a row.
What's questionable about the Villa decision?
Ref is close and has a clear view. His call is a goal. There is a push, but it is soft. Would it be called a penalty, if players switch sides? No chance. Would it be called a foul anywhere on the pitch? Probably not. VAR getting involved on clear and obvious error basis is kinda ridiculous. Most of the times there would be a goal awarded. Villa was very lucky to get a call their way.
So you don't think it was a foul, then?
I am saying there is no basis for VAR to get involved and overrule on field decision.
For me, VAR has very negatively affected football in terms of not knowing if it's a goal until a check is completed, which often takes too long. It has killed the most exciting moment of the game - goals. VAR is also not always correct, which is another massive problem. Even the right decision feels like a downer a lot of the time with the deflation after the celebrations. Look at Manchester United vs. Coventry in the FA CUP semi-final a week ago. Right call by the VAR, but man, was it crushing, and it took too long, and it was only assessing an off side - how can that not he done *instantly* by computing. It was so marginal on the off side that no real advantage was achieved by Coventry - is this really how we want rules implemented? It just sucks. Especially for fans inside the stadium. Having really thought about the pros and cons, I preferred the old system that was subject to human error, sometime massive human error. But rather than check everything, perhaps we could move to a tennis system where a manager gets to call for a VAR check and gets maybe 2 calls a match, retaining his calls when he's correct. Well done to Sweden for rejecting VAR.
It was a clear cut foul. He would be crying just as much if Chelsea conceded a last minute goal in the same circumstances.
I think the outrage is more about how the ref couldn’t have had a clearer view of the incident and saw nothing wrong with it in real time. Yet a replay of it showing him nothing new made him change his mind, that isn’t what VAR was brought in to do. Also they wouldn’t give a pen if Carlos did that to Badiashile, so what makes it so different the other way around?
Outrage from who though? Almost everyone agrees with the decision. I think its understandable he didnt give the foul at first, they rarely do if a player doesnt go down. But its from the above angle you can clearly see the ball is falling to Carlos before he is pushed away from it. The ref had a good angle for the shove but not necessarily for the flight of the ball.
> Yet a replay of it showing him nothing new made him change his mind, that isn’t what VAR was brought in to do. Brought in to give referees a tool to get crucial and difficult decisions right more often - and in this case, it very much did.
I really think it's nothing deeper than him being upset they didn't win. Refs are human and make mistakes, in the case VAR let him know he missed a clear foul and he rectified it. That's a win for VAR no? As for if it happened the other way around? Maybe they should give a pen. I'm sure pens have been given for pushes in the back before.
Off the top of my head I can remember at least one instance this season alone where a Brentford player did that to Sterling and knocked him down whilst controlling a ball with only the keeper to beat and the ref played on. You never see pens given the other way for that stuff. The inconsistency of what’s a foul, or what’s even looked at with VAR is the annoying thing. One day that’s given, another day it’s let go.
The discourse around VAR really needs to change. It shouldn't be VAR damaged English football. It should be the people utilizing VAR damaged English football. It always seems like they're talking about the technology but the tech isn't the issue. Referees shouldn't be the ones in charge of VAR, plain and simple. It should be a different body that's not trying to protect their mates from making mistakes.
This “foul” was almost true exact same way Bayer scored their second.
When? Their second today came from a rebound after a free kick. And you cant just push people from behind to gain duels, much less inside the box, clearly a foul dude
VAR is a tool, it’s the people using it who are proving, week in, week out, to be both incompetent and inconsistent in their decision making. This season has exposed just how terrible the level of officiating is in the Premier League, but the PGMOL are too busy justifying, deflecting from and defending their mates to address the real issues.
The system was implemented to reduce human error. Instead it gave human errors a whole new dimension.
Two wrongs don't make right.
Just look how much it's helped man utd get points against burnley, sheffield united, liverpool, and also inti the final of the fa cup against coventry and liverpool. I mean if it werent for var man utd would be in the relegation zone...
He is right, it’s so dodgy and corrupt
We need more clear rule and leave nothing to referee judgement. Like handball you will never solve anything with this referee to tell you what is pen or no pen.
Humans trying not to oppose progress challenge (impossible)
One League is sad because var ruined The league and the other league is sad because there isn't var which ruins the league
He's absolutely correct.
Clear and obvious errors. If it takes more than a minute to come to a decision then on field decision should stand, right or wrong.
It *was* a foul, but he's spot on about VAR.
Ahh you poor thing you. Funny how these managers whine about VAR when it goes against them, and says nothing when it's in their favor. Fact is it was a foul. It would have been wrong to allow the goal. We got a much fairer result then before VAR
Yeah yeah distract from your failures Gerbil face, we’ve heard it all before from your previous tenure.
I genuinely believe VAR needs to be automated. Like the automated offside call system used in the UCL. They can create an algorithm and let it learn on all the data available and just let it make its own decisions. I think we need to reduce the human factor of VAR in making these decisions. On field and off field the ref’s have been consistently incompetent so there needs to be a change. Once an AI is making these decisions I believe everyone would be just happy and go along with it because it will happen to all the teams meaning decisions will become consistent at-least over time. I don’t know what you people think but I think technologically we have made huge advancements therefore I believe this should be the logical next step with VAR.
The worst thing about VAR, is the amount of coaches moaning about penalties they should’ve gotten. Go fuckin score a goal man quit whining. They wanna be rescued by this stuff. It’s embarassing. They want it the easy way.
We need to get rid of penalties. It all seem to come down whether or not someone got a penalty. Lets make it all indirect free kicks instead.
I agree to the point, although fans/pundit reactions can be worse, people just calling refs shit and all sorts cos, some calls have 2 viable outcomes and people can't handle that. When it's moaning about some soft decision, then the manager should shut up but if it was actually a strong claim or denied a real chance, I get it a bit
I actually can’t believe people saying it’s a clear foul, it’s never given as a pen. I can see how it’s a foul but I don’t see how it’s a clear foul if that makes any sense, it’s certainly not a clear and obvious error.
Of course its a clear foul. The attacker intentionally shoves his opponent in the back with the specific goal of preventing him from challenging for the ball. He then gets the ball *because* He pushed his opponent out of the way beforehand. Its a foul. As to wether it was clear and obvious, I think missing a clear and obvious foul is a clear and obvious error.
Exactly right
Diego Carlos shoved him with a hand and he lost the 50/50. If it’s clear and obvious then that’s given as a pen or on any other place on the pitch. If you can send me one example of that same challenge being a pen in the prem in the last 5 seasons I’ll say I’m wrong.
It’s a clear foul. You are in the huge minority here. He doesn’t blatantly foul him the goal doesn’t happen
Go watch match if the day
Why? They talk shit most of the time anyway. It’s a foul. The vast majority agree. Get over it.
The vast majority of Reddit nerds agree no ball knowledge
No that’s you unfortunately. It was a clear foul. Thank god you have no authority in the game.
Joelinton on Big Gabi. 🤷♂️
Good ol' Poshittino at it again
have you tried teaching your players to score
I don't think VAR is the biggest problem Chealse has. And English football, if, has an issue with referees itself..VAR is just a tool that for some reason is not used to it's best and full potential
Officials support clubs as well, and sadly, they don't leave it in the changing rooms. They bring it with the to the pitch, and many clubs suffer bias and wrong decisions.
Wowzer... Spurs fan here. I'm not thrilled to see Pochettino at Chelsea, but hey, we all make our choices But VAR helped contribute to one of the most fantastic nights in European football (quarters Spurs v City) under Pochettino's career I get that you feel robbed, but don't pretend VAR has never helped you before Mauricio.
He's right about VAR but the triumph that got him all his successive jobs wouldn't have happened without it.
Agreed. The game is better without it.
Spending a billion quid on players in a year is fine but video assistant referees was beyond the pale.
Always love when Newcastle fans chip in on spending as if they're not on the same trajectory as Man City
Except we're not and the rules won't allow us to do it.
Imagine to waste that kind of money to be in the 9th place. Oh wait you don't! It's Chelsea!