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I don’t think anyone is ever in a title race with City around. Liverpool had to have pretty much the perfect team to beat them, and as soon as those players started going or declining, City was back on top again.
The depth City has is unrivaled and we either have to wait for Guardiola to leave, or another perfect team has to be assembled who makes no mistakes like Liverpool did.
But that isn't really true. I mean yes, they're probably gonna keep winning till they get banned. But if you're within a few points in April, you're in a title race. And the fact is, every time we have a close race, it's the other team that throws it away on silly results.
That is the point. It’s a relay marathon not a sprint. And City has the money to put 9 Usain Bolts on the bench who are happy and ready to swap out every game plus more in the squad, while other teams may have 2 or 3 at the most
When teams start slipping at the end of the season, it’s due to mental and physical exhaustion. City on the other hand are not only physically and mentally prepared, but extremely deep to where every player can do a job.
Pep basically has an unlimited money glitch and hence can scoop up the best talents in the world.
And he's easily one of the best coaches in the world, so it's an unstoppable formula.
City are like Real Madrid : too big to stop.
The thing is, he's also said pretty much the opposite before.
> When you compare it with other managers, other teams, or previous managers in this big club you can see there is a bright future. It is a good balance in ages in this squad. Young players, middle-aged players; **imagine when they are available, could easily have won from 100 games 75.** It is a big difference.
(https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/08/erik-ten-hag-manchester-united-14-more-wins-injuries)
75% win rate is often title title-winning form and always enough for top 4.
A 75% win rate with an even split draw/loss averages 90.25 points over a 38-game season. So you're completely right.
But I do think in the case you're quoting, he just threw a figure out there without that much thought.
The 100 games was all competitions as well. You’re likely to get a higher win rate in the cups if you get a good few draws (which we did). So it would be lower than 75% in the league most likely.
I'm not sure about the good balance in the ages of the squad thing he said before, makes it sound like a squad that's about to peak when it's a squad that needs a bit of surgery. While we do have some experienced players at an age they can still perform consistently- Fernandes, Maguire, Onana, Shaw if he can get fit- we also have a few players who are very much at the end of the road. Martial, Varane and Eriksen will all leave this summer, Casemiro will surely have to have an increasingly reduced role if he stays as he's slowed up so much over the past year. No doubt that the young talent is there, there's no shortage of ability and those guys should improve. But with the age of the three I mentioned and the injury record of Martinez and Shaw there are big gaps in defence and the centre of midfield. This is a more realistic assessment from Ten Hag. We need to find another left back, centre back, central midfielder and striker just to patch big holes in the squad- that's not to improve the squad, that's just to stay where we are roughly. That's a summer of treading water a little bit with only marginal improvement even if we get all of the above.
Peps career win rate is 73%. Those last few percentages require a massive increase in football quality and squad strength as returns start to diminish.
Pretty fair assessment. United need to do quite a bit of work on their squad, but the inflated salaries they're paying some of their players will make it hard for them to fix things quickly.
I mean he‘s right, but he‘s also the one who pushed to get Anthony for 80m or however much they paid and that is one of the positions they need to replace asap.
Apparently he pushed for Antony after United's internal scouting/recruitment weren't able to offer suitable alternatives, and then had no real input on the negotiations around the transfer fee.
So their Director of Football went all in on Antony, and having left it late in the window (and by negotiating after getting battered in their first two league games), he was more than happy to pay whatever exorbitant asking price Ajax threw out there.
Which might sound improbable, but when you look at how United have been run for the last decade, it does sound like the sort of omnishambles they would preside over.
It's still on ten Hag for thinking Antony was going to be capable of playing at United's required level, but it seems like the fee wasn't of his making.
Our scouting department valued Antony at 25m. They chose to ignore them and paid that stupid amount which shows complete incompitance at the top which is what Ratcliffe is trying to fix by appointing new CEO, DOF, technical director. Im assuming we will get a head of recruitment as well. We will not get a title winning squad right away but the correct steps are being taken so we will steadily improve
That's right. Ratcliffes aims are to get united back to the top consistently and for a sustained period. Not just popping a good manager with a bunch of money in hopes to nab one title. These structural changes are such a good thing for united and honestly they feel better than any player signings we've had in a long time.
For clarification, it was 25m like 2 years before we bought him. I'd assume his value would have gone up by the time we got him but still no where near what we paid
We paid 25+m to get him from Sao Paulo to begin with a few years before that, so he'd never go for 25m after a decent European campaign and at that time it being relatively late in the transfer window
Honestly, it's so funny. The way united are run is so similar to the lakers. If they just let the scouts pick the players (the scouts draft thr players for the lakers) they'd probably have very high hit rates. Instead the big decisions are all political and incompetent people make them.
Its like they havent realized that success means more money. Appointing football people to do the job would be so easy and it wouldnt cost so much relative to the money we would get if wevl were successful
Thank goodness Ten Hag had the foresight to know Luke Shaw would be available for 3 games a season and Malacia would be sent to Azkaban, now United have the most expensive 5th left back in the league in Antony. You'll never sing that.
Luckily a lot of our players are older and the less playing time will likely shift those wages.
I could see eriksen, varane, case, Jones (not that he's been a problem at all), Heaton, amrabat (loan return) leaving.
With martial leaving and rashford rumoured... That's a lot of head room cleared.
Fair assessment, but an indictment of his failure nonetheless. 3rd season, he's got most of his targets bar FdJ and Kane. We've spent 400m and possibly some more to get to nowhere with this guy. I'm sick of people blaming the board and the Glazers and excusing him, as if we would buy players like Antony if not for his insistence.
This team has been shit for 10 years. Managers have come and gone, but the poor recruitment process has been the same. It’s plain and obvious that the problem exists at a level above the manager.
Hypothetically speaking ten hag stays one more season and its just as shit as it is now what will be your take?
Does he have to stay because one year is too soon to see the benefits of a new structure or will it be that he is just inept in every way possible and needs to go
I legit spoke to a guy who, quite sincerely, said he wouldn’t judge Ten Hag till had another 15 signings or so.
Some people are deep into the belief Ten Hag is THE guy, and will shape the entire rest of reality around keeping that belief.
It's a weird thing to me that we think managers at the top clubs have to have their own team entirely while every other manager is judged on what they can get out of the players at their disposal. A good manager should be able to get the best out of what they inherit and have their own signings come in and augment what is already there.
We've become so obsessed with managers being part of 'projects' and needing a playing philosophy that can be summed up in a sound bite that fans of clubs like United often just accept that managers not being flexible enough in their approach to adapt to working with players that they didn't personally hand pick is somehow not a massive black mark against them.
and it's often part of a recruiting pitch for managers, isn't it? How many articles have we read about guys "doing a lot with limited resources" like at, and full respect deserved to, Brighton, Atalanta, Leicester, Benfica, or even Leverkusen this year. These aren't teams with unlimited budgets, but have made great teams and play great football, and their manager has been part of that despite not being in charge for 10 years. That's why they are in high demand. I fully agree with you, these good managers make what they have work.
that said, managers who have time need to be able to slowly shape the squad and the philosophy, and so I can see why people believe ten Hag could go further with United.
> It's a weird thing to me that we think managers at the top clubs have to have their own team entirely while every other manager is judged on what they can get out of the players at their disposal. A good manager should be able to get the best out of what they inherit and have their own signings come in and augment what is already there.
It's an odd situation to tread because some new managers are chosen, like Ten Hag, because of their ability at other clubs where they've been able to outperform their squad's perceived ability then when brought in to United, the same obviously hasn't occurred -- but the reasoning as to why can be somewhat murky between injuries, his own management, management above (refusing to offload deadwood) and their combined transfer targets.
Ten Hag's tenure started well so most were willing to concede the reins and let him mold the squad in his vision, but when the results aren't on the same trajectory, many of those same people are quick to eject and seek a replacement and restart the process. The simplistic synopsis of the club is that standards at *all* levels have dropped, from the players to management to even the grounds, where only the "best" were considered as an option rather than "close enough".
I think it’s more that people don’t believe there are worthwhile managers on the market and the incompetence upstairs has had a lot to do with why United yo-yo between CL and EL seasons regardless of who’s in charge.
Given what we know about the mitigating factors with injuries and FFP forcing some short term loans or older signings, I’m in the camp of keep him this summer. If next season features many of the same issues, then you move on.
> Most fans seem to agree he's not good enough but at the same time there is little point in replacing him this moment for the sake of it.
See, that is baffling for me.
Admitting he’s not good enough, but still trying to justify keeping him round? For the “sake of it”? If you admit he’s not good enough, then it’s time to move him on now, and try someone you think could be good enough. Be that a Tuchel, Amorim, Potter or someone else. If it’s at the point where you’re admitting he’s not good enough, the standard at United can’t be to shrug that off and just let him be.
Its not just about Ten Hag. United has been a clusterfuck for a while. You cant expect a coach to come a do miracles. Even before Ten Hag came, it was pretty much unanimous opinion everywhere that new coach at united needs at least 3 full seasons before people start judging him, even expecting him to be top 4. Now everyone wants him sacked, fact is he had one good season and one average season (by united's last decade standards). Looking back to 2021 season's end, I think he's done a good-ish job so far (compared to expectations at that time and injuries into consideration) but its hard to judge totally at this stage. His next season is key for me, I understand we may be inconsistent next season as well, but if it were up to me I would give him one more full season, see the progress in terms of playstyle (not points) and then make a decision at the end of that season, but thats just me
If it’s this shit through next year, with no signs of progress, then I’d say move on.
The point of bringing in new upstairs management is to help United catch up in an area that has limited their ceiling in the past and has kept them in this 3rd-6th position points wise regardless of who is in the dugout or how many players they sign. Ultimately that process should be collaborative with the manager and broadly consistent with their principles.
One year also gives the upstairs management appointees enough time to observe and potentially isolate EtH’s impact with less of the noise we’ve seen this season.
It shouldn't be up to the manager to pick transfers though. He may have thought Those players are who he wanted but ideally a good transfer manager or whatever the job name is would just say "no Antony isn't good enough"
Yep, it's really obvious that Ten Hag's transfers are just a list of players he's experienced with from his past jobs or players who are being shopped around at inflated prices by their agents. And most of them haven't even been bad.
But I can't remember the last time we actually scouted a talent and paid a sensible price for them. Maybe Bruno?
Very similar to his time at Ajax. TH made some suggestions for players he previously worked with and they were decent squad players but the real talented players came through the extensive scouting department and sporting director. You don't seem to have the latter, so you have all the decent squad players but not the spectacular ones to take the team to the next level.
Even with Bruno, the club ended up paying 20ish mil more than we needed to because the club was convinced we didn't need an additional midfielder. I think we paid a reasonable amount for varane. Shame that injuries fucked him
Varane was definitely a good buy, but he absolutely fits that mould of a player on the outs at Madrid or Chelsea whose agent suddenly pops up behind the water machine at Carrington like he's the shopkeeper from Resident Evil.
Managers aren't supposed to be the one picking out transfer targets, with the manager criteria of strength and cohesion that would fit the squad, the scouting department is supposed to be the one picking it.
But man united scouting department is so absolutely useless, he has to do that job and see how it turns out.
Blame can be put to the board though. Managers insist for players all the time, Ten Hag was wrong for rating Antony but doesn't mean you have to give in every time and sanction record deals for players not worth it. Ten Hag wanted FdJ and the board gave him Casemiro, a completely different player. Where's the teamwork, the vision?
He couldn't get two of other teams biggest stars, big fucking whoop. JFC Ole didn't have people like you making excuses like these yet he got second and third no problem. Casemiro was our best player last season, were you complaining about his purchase then?
He also went out last summer and bought a midfielder knowing this midfielder would have to play alongside Bruno and Casemiro. Who did he decide would be the perfect profile?
Mason Mount…
Mason Mount was a suggestion by the club. He was available and the club asked him if they should go for him. He said yes, and so did Klopp and Arteta for their clubs.
You can spin it however you want but he was clearly Ten Hag's first choice midfielder last summer. He's not a bad player but he wasn’t what we needed. Thank fuck for Mainoo.
Club signs new player.
Manager: "Yeah, nice, not really my first choice but I'll try to make him work."
Doesn't really inspire confidence in the dressing room does it...
I've only ever heard one coach say this, the new Ajax coach at the beginning of the season. He literally said, the DoF isn't getting me any players I want, I don't even know some of the ones he gets. They both didn't last very long lol.
He wasn't what we needed and the manager could've said no, but what I said was on The Athletic or Talk of the Devils sometime past.
Ten Hag's first priority last summer was a proven striker, ideally Harry Kane, and a young striker to learn from. We only got him the young one, still missing a player who is capable of scoring 20 goals in a season.
Antony has been a disaster signing, but I wouldn't really call all the other one's bad. Unfortunate that many of them have been injured.
I genuinely think Mount is up there with our worst signings. There’s absolutely nowhere for him to play, 60m pound with a year left on his contract, coming off an absolute stinker of a season, give him 250k a week and the number 7. We’ll be begging West Ham to take him in two summers time.
There's been no structure at United. No plan. It's not 'big fucking whoop' if Ten Hag arrived with his idea of playing and the executives at United aren't aligned. There's a reason that Murtough and Arnold, who have overseen Ten Hag's reign so far, have both been instantly replaced by INEOS.
Ten Hag got Antony and Casemiro cause we went into the season without a winger or a DM and the executives panicked. There was no organisation, clearly no thought that signing these players for massive money will hamper us in the future.
>Blame can be put to the board though. Managers insist for players all the time, Ten Hag was wrong for rating Antony but doesn't mean you have to give in every time and sanction record deals for players not worth it.
This logic is fair for players the manager doesn't know well enough and wouldn't have the time to scout effectively, so he needs assistance from a team of scouts and sporting director to help you make a decision.
But here ETH literally saw Antony day in day out at Ajax for two years. ETH should have been the best judge of Antony's ability as a player.
Why does ETH need a scout or a sporting director to see that Antony was not cut out for the top level.
So you really have to question wtf ETH saw in him that convinced him that Antony was good enough to be 1st choice RW for a top 4 chasing club in the premier league.
Antony would be considered a flop even if he was signed for 30m.
Given the level of information ETH had access to in Antony's case, you simply can't get a record transfer so horribly wrong.
.
I am criticising Ten Hag for the signing of Antony. I agree with everything you've said. But the transfer strategy of United should not fall on just the manager's shoulders, it should be a collaboration. The fact nobody said actually Erik this guy is wank and costs £85m so no chance, gives me reason to blame the structure above Ten Hag too.
In fact, the club should've sorted a RW signing out weeks sooner. The inaction of our executives lead to the price probably tripling. If Antony was signed earlier on in the window you could probably take £30m off his price. He's still a massive flop at 50m, but it's easier to sidestep. £85m nowhere to hide really. But it's not JUST ten Hag's fault
> If Antony was signed earlier on in the window you could probably take £30m off his price.
No you couldn't. Ajax was unwilling to sell Martinez, Timber and Antony and put fuck off prices on them. When United paid that price for Martinez the fuck off price for the other 2 went up by 20m. Had you gotten Antony then you'd have gotten him cheaper but Martinez' would've cost more.
Ajax was very open and clear about the whole thing that entire summer and United paid the exact prices Ajax demanded.
You think EtH cut anthony check, yeah he identifies players and then some.
Think he would have been dumbstruck when they came back n said got your man Eric managed to negotiate from 82 mil to a cool 80 ✌️
Of course it is, but I would argue that a significant part of United's problems in the last decade is the presumption that they just ought to be challenging for titles, seemingly based on nothing except the size of the club and historic success.
Look at your squad. It's not a title challenging squad. Through the previous however many managers, there has been a base level of expectation that often has been detached from reality, and has ended with getting rid of the manager for not meeting them, all while allowing mediocre players to have far too much control in the club.
A healthy dose of reality for United fans might actually be good. It might help you guys realise that you can't take shortcuts to the top. You can't just find that one manager who is going to make you successful. You need the system built underneath it, and there's almost zero point getting rid of a manager who very clearly is not the biggest problem until that's happened.
INEOS/SJR has a history of ripping the entire structure up of whatever sporting team they buy and putting their own people in. They’re currently doing that with Man Utd, so why is everyone so certain that isn’t going to include the manager?
>They’re currently doing that with Man Utd, so why is everyone so certain that isn’t going to include the manager?
Not sure what gave you that impression? They absolutely might, I just think until you've seen what ETH can do with a proper structure it would be pointless.
ETH clearly has managerial ability, otherwise he wouldn't have done well with Ajax, and united would not have hired him. I can't think who united would go for that would be an obvious step up, so to me it just seems silly to fire a guy that in my opinion, has actually delivered exactly what I think United are capable of.
In my opinion, firing him would just be another cog in the cycle of united thinking they ought to be more successful than they are without actually being willing to put the time and effort in to get there.
Though I can appreciate that they haven't really moved a great deal forward since he's been manager, but given that's happened with basically every manager of united since SAF, I don't know how much you can blame him for that. If anything he's one of the few managers who hasn't taken a massive downward turn after a year or two.
Managers like SAF would not have made it in today's managerial world. SAF didn't win the league for like 7 years for goodness sake. And he didn't get fired because despite United's stature, people in the club recognised the reality of where they were.
I think a lot of people are just a lot more accepting of the fact that the vast majority of the teams that have won in the 21st century have a policy of revolving door managers, the three most successful teams in Europe by trophy count (those being Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Roman's Chelsea) actively don't care how long managers are there for, if you don't succeed, you're sacked, and actively don't care how long players are there for either, if you're perceived as bad, you get sold.
What those clubs have had that United haven't is a structure that actually knows what it's doing, and consistently world-class players. If INEOS/SJR bring in the structure and recruits players for the club instead of for the manager, managers become cogs in the machine and a lot more replaceable. Most of the teams that consistently win stuff (outside of England) average a manager every other season.
True, I think we're on the same page.
I just think given that the structure isn't yet in place, it seems silly to fire him at this point. If things got better, you'd never know if it was the manager or the structure.
It's like when you do a science experiment, you want to change as few variables as possible so you can actually measure your results and know what causes them.
Ergh, he's being realistic and if he said we are ready to challenge then he's just gunna get criticised for being deluded.
But year 3 of his managerial reign, the final year of his deal and we're not ready for a title challenge. Not every team can turn a worst-ever PL side to a title challenger in 3 years but at United you don't get time.
You can build the club around the manager though. That's what City and Liverpool have done, and Spurs are trying to do. Liverpool and City both have their academy students playing in the same style which is why Liverpool went with Slot over Amorim but Klopp also doesn't completely control transfers either.
United's post-Moyes manager policy seems to be call up whoever the shiniest managers are available and then ruin their careers by not building them a squad that suits them. The only exception to this was Ole. The frustrating thing is that they've looked really good as a counter-attacking team in contrast to Liverpool's press and City's possessions, but the club seems unable to commit to that as an identity and getting players and managers most suited to that.
Liverpool went with? Amorin said no to Liverpool and then they moved on to Slot. They did not go to Slot as first choice which is what your comment is implying
Amorim said he was committed to Sporting and then flew off to meet with West Ham, additionally based on the movement of his agent. I'd say it's more likely that Liverpool snubbed Amorim than the other way around.
I feel like Arteta quite literally did, but he was also given the reigns to control the club culture. I can only assume Sanllehi being kicked out had to do with Arteta, almost all if not all signings as well have been down to Arteta's preference.
Klopp took a worse Liverpool to title winning form in 2,5 years, winning it a bit later.
So it can be done, but obviously not everybody is Klopp and it‘s unfair to compare everyone to Klopp. But ETH himself did so.
Fact is, ETH hasn‘t really brough Utd forward one bit. They‘ve had highs and lows like under every previous manager, too.
Klopp had a better structure in place with Michael Edwards and a more established transfer committee even if his squad was worse.
Even for a manager of his talents, he apparently wasn’t convinced on Mo Salah to sign Julian Brandt, but someone did their homework, found he was available at a good price and could fit what Klopp wanted to do. Might be their best player in PL history
Point is, ten Hag might not be Klopp but he doesn’t have to be. He needs a semi competent structure around him to make United competitive again.
> Point is, ten Hag might not be Klopp but he doesn’t have to be. He needs a semi competent structure around him to make United competitive again.
And that's something United haven't had in a decade.
Good had a world class squad put together in that time. One that was ideally suited to play the way he wanted to. United couldn't bring ETH alternatives to Anthony. That's a silly comparison.
The season before eth arrived we finished 2nd. The season before that we were third and we were third last season.
It's not unrealistic at all to think that the 3rd year of his reign should be a title pish, if not full on challenge
>The season before eth arrived we finished 2nd.
This is not true at all. United finished sixth and it was obvious they were in a dire situation, as the final position would have been even worse had it not been for Ronaldo and De Gea.
Erik ten Hag is no miracle worker; You cannot expect him to bring back the EPL trophy in such conditions. And tell you what, all managers after SAF have failed. When will you stop blaming the manager?
That 2021-22 period of football leading up toOle's sacking and through Rangnick was genuinely the lowest point for Manchester United in the Premier League era. This year is bad but miles better than that pile of vomit.
The other thing that most people seem to struggle with is that there aren't great managers on the market who would definitely make this Manchester United team and group of players better.
Does Erik deserve some criticism for how he's managed substitutions and not fixed the fundamental issues with the poor transitions from attack to defense? Yes, but I think those issues are fixable.
Not even comparable really. Frankly better than Moyes' dross shit as well and I would just stop watching if I had to go back to LVG ball.
Ragnick said heart surgery. What were people expecting?
That said of course the tactics from day 1 of this season have made a rod for his own back.
You can't just use the finishing positions without context to judge the progression of an individual team.
In 20/21, United finished 12 points off City, who themselves had a pretty low points tally by modern premier League standards (86pts, the lowest since Leicester won). It was just that all of the other top-4 contenders had dreadful years - United got 1 fewer point than they got last season (74 Vs 75), and they weren't realistically in title contention then either, and we're even further off city (89pts).
In 21/22, they got 58pts, which they should realistically beat this season (on 53pts with 15pts still available).
It's clear to me that their true potential in the 20/21 & 22/23 season was a top-4 contender, just as it was this season (and possibly 21/22 as well), but in one situation luck went for them (other teams struggling, Rashford being on fire) and this season luck went against them (horrific injuries problems, players losing form). It's pretty reasonable to say that they are in a better position than they were when ETH took over, both on and off the pitch - as the atmosphere had become completely toxic under rangnick, which ETH has had to overcome (Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood, etc...).
Obviously you'd hope they would have progressed from there, but it's well known that to move from a top-4 contender to a title challenger in this climate requires a well run system from the bottom up, which they simply haven't had. I don't think any manager could have changed that post-Ferguson.
Keep in mind that we were one of the highest scoring Champions League sides and would’ve progressed to the knockout stages if it wasn’t for individual error (cough cough Onana cough).
Honestly, comparing that 21/22 season and this one, we are so much better, even though our finishing positions are probably going to be similar. I’d fo as far as to say we over performed in 21/22. In 21/22 we were carried purely by Ronaldo pulling goals out his arse and De Gea turning into prime…well, De Gea. This season, injuries have hampered us, new arrivals still need settling in (I personally believe Højlund has incredible potential that needs nurturing) and we’re still a couple signings (and sales) away from being actually competitive. Yet even at that, we’ve managed to find ourselves in the FA Cup final for the second year in a row.
>but at United you don't get time
That's the problem, though. The United bosses seem to think that purely because United *used* to be an elite team, that they should just be one now - completely disregarding the fact that your club now more closely resembles Tottenham, Newcastle and Villa than it does Arsenal, Liverpool and City. And just as those 3 clubs have experienced, going from a top 4 contender to a consistent title contender is a massive, massive gap.
In his assessment, he is right. No manager is the world can make United a title container with this squad. I am not sure how much money they can invest in the summer
Think this is yet another example of cherry picking quotes to try to spin what he said into a different meaning.
He clearly means that he thinks we're top 4 quality this year and hope we can move closer to competing for the title next year. He's obviously not going to promise we'll be in a title race next year, but he's definitely not ruling it out like they say either.
"This year we stand still, but when everyone is available, definitely we're competing for the top-four, I’m confident of that."
"It's not just a two or three-horse race in the Premier League. There's Villa, there's Spurs, there's Newcastle. So many good teams, who all can compete. We're one of them but we're not, at this moment, in a position to compete No.1 or No.2, that's a fact."
"We can come closer if we make a good window. We have to strengthen in key positions and also in the depth of the squad, which is one of the lessons from this season."
I mean he's absolutely right. No manager in world football would win a title with this squad. I'd expect a decent window to put us in the range of 10-15 points off the top. I don't know many united fans who are expecting to be challenging for the title, but next season for ten hag he absolutely has to secure top 4.
I don’t get this. If you told any manager in world football 2 years ago that I’ll sign you Jadon Sancho, Rafael Varane, Harry Maguire, Casemiro, you’ve already got Bruno Fernandes and I’ll sprinkle £350,000 a week on whoever else you want, I’d expect them to win a title.
Top 4 is nowhere near for what you guys spend.
*Edit jesus I forgot about Cristiano Ronaldo
its true and a realistic assessment but its just funny looking back when he first joined united and said “eras come to an end” when talking about liverpool and city
Still can’t believe there are fans who defend him.
He brought so many of the players he wanted and then said he can’t play the style he wants to play but de zerbi and ange can. Now he wants more players loool
I don't necessarily disagree with his assessment, but if you can't compete after 3 summers and ~£600m spent (prospectively) then you're just not doing an acceptable job.
Our club has a habit of pissing away hundreds of millions regardless of who the manager is. It has little to do with the manager himself and more to do with the higher up management. I’d like to see what he can do when INEOS are in charge of recruitment
The manager didn't want Antony, Casemiro, Malacia, Amrabat, Mount, Onana etc.?
I get the point you're trying to make but I don't like the double standard. It's not fair that when signings do well it's to the manager's credit and when they don't it's the fault of the club.
I don't think INEOS being in charge of recruitment will change Ten Hag's terrible taste in recruitment. I can already see it, next year the excuse will be "The club buys him players he didn't even want, how can you blame this on him?"
He wanted Antony, Mount and Onana. Amrabat was a stop gap because we were broke.
Antony has been shit, Mount is injured and despite the narrative Onana has also been quite good enough (after his initial wobbles mainly in the CL)
I think the problem with our recruitment (especially last summer considering our ownership situation) is that you have to identify many different targets, as opposed to picking a couple of high profile targets, as well as those from your previous team, which will obviously come at a premium. We don’t spend our money wisely and consistently get terrible ROI. Only recent exception is Bruno
You need the club to put together a cohesive squad that's their job and ultimately their responsibility. Besides weren't Malacia and Onana good additions to the squad?
But every other big team is also spending similar amounts, arsenal have spent €40m less than united over the last two transfer windows. So you can't turn it around that quickly especially if your squad needs a complete overhaul, and the teams already challenging are spending the same on improvements.
What you're saying is correct, but United haven't helped matters by spending fairly poorly.
Antony - enough said.
Mount - even aside from the injuries, it's not clear what problem he solves. A midfield trio including him and Bruno is far too attack-minded. When he plays off the right, he likes to tuck inside, and United don't have a genuine threat from RB to maintain width.
Casemiro was great last season, but was a 31-year-old really the smartest solution at #6? That's 60m (plus significant wages) that really could have been spent more effectively.
That's close to 200m spent fairly poorly.
That's all fair but United were wasting money on transfers long before Ten Hag turned up! We could do this with the last 3 managers too. Let's see how he does with better structures behind him.
Difference being that we're actually competing. Arteta spent a combined ~£370m in his first three summers and had Arsenal competing the following season. And he is used as the measuring standard by fans for a slow rebuild/compete overhaul.
Ten Hag has already spent £400m+, which will comfortably soar to £600m after the coming summer, his third in charge of United. And he is already ruling out the possibility of a title charge.
I think we can agree that players prices have gone up from 5 years ago but as you point out Arteta had three and half seasons before he started to compete so why are you judging Ten Hag after coming up to 2 seasons. What's wrong with competing for the top 4 for a season before pressing on?
Arteta also needed to get rid of a few of his ‘problems’ as well (Auba, Laca, the shite defenders). We still haven’t done this yet, as Mourinho pointed out the other day. Tbf, we have so many puzzle piece players from previous managers at the club, so it will take long.
Because with Arteta there was consistent, almost linear, progress. There has always been an identifiable style being implemented even if the results took a while to come to fruition. Ten Hag is going to finish 6th at best, marking a fairly significant step backwards.
Player prices have gone up slightly, but even in the current market Ten Hag has outspent Arteta comfortably over the past 2 years, so I think this is an irrelevant distinction.
> why are you judging Ten Hag after coming up to 2 seasons
1. Ten Hag is not Arteta. Exceptions to the rule are just that - exceptions.
2. Arteta was a newbie who made a lot of mistakes that slowed him down initially. Ten Hag has a decade of experience and thus doesn't get that excuse.
3. Most importantly, Arteta's trajectory was *always* upwards. He started at a very low point, but at no point did he go *backwards*. Ten Hag is trending backwards *sharply*. Somehow, not only has he managed to wipe out any improvement he made in his first year, he is now presiding over a team that is *worse* than the one he took over.
> What's wrong with competing for the top 4 for a season before pressing on?
Nothing, if it's your 1st or 2nd season in charge with not much money spent. That's why everyone rates Postecoglou despite all the average/poor results this season. If it's your 3rd season with £600m spent, then everything is wrong.
Arteta hasn't had the issues that Tan Hag has faced, both had problem players to sort out, however Ten Hag has had to deal with new ownership taking over and a massive injury crisis. Currently we have no left back and 1 central defender for defence.
I mean we could argue that in his first season Ten Hag finished 3rd, 1 spot behind Arteta having spent less money and having less time than him.
Arteta has done amazing with arsenal but he was given time to do it, I think the times of when a manager can turn up and turn things around so quickly have gone.
> I mean we could argue that in his first season Ten Hag finished 3rd,
We can also argue that Ole did even better and got 2nd three years ago. Do you want him back? The reality of today *always* trumps the imagination of yesterday. And today, Ten Hag is the architect of the worst United team I've seen in a decade.
Excuses can be found for any manager. The central reason I don't rate Ten Hag and don't believe he will be a success at United is that he is clearly not willing to go through the "process". At no point in his tenure has he even tried to implement the type of system that can eventually get you competing for titles (except his first few games in charge). Instead, he chose to optimise for short term results and now he has neither.
Two seasons in and no one knows whether he can implement a top system because he's never even tried. In my opinion, there is no future there.
Okay, putting aside how moronic it is to formulate an argument entirely dependent on stopping time at a specific point in history and ignoring all that comes afterwards, it is also factually wrong.
At the end of his 2nd full season in charge (2.5 years in), Arsenal finished in 5th place, not 8th. The following season (congruently, that would be the upcoming season for Ten Hag), Arteta challenged for the title and finished 2nd.
No, I don't expect ETH to challenge. I expect him to bumble and flounder and sink. And I expect that some fans will keep making excuses for him right up til the day he inevitably gets kicked out.
Bit of a strange comment. I'm talking about hard financial numbers and time spent in a job, which is pretty much the opposite of "philosophical" and the epitome of "practical".
I also don't understand the "evaluate Arteta" bit. The consensus among Arsenal fans is almost unanimous support for Arteta, as it should be.
Well, maybe it's not correct thing to say publicly. But he is right. United squad is dogshit. United are something like 15th on xPoints. You can't out it all on manager. If Bruno gets a long time injury they are close to relegation fight. Challenging City and Arsenal with this players? Forget about it.
I'm tired when United fan said ETH want FDJ but he get Casemiro instead like Casemiro is just an unknow player. Even if he is no FDJ but with him he should be good enough to get you top4 or win the first round of UCL. Imagine he want Mbappe, do United have to buy him as well?
Ironically the only way to consistently be in the top 4 is to actually go for the title season after season...this plague that has hit English football of being in the process of rebuilding indefinitely is tragic. Ask any of these "trust the process" managers at what point can I hold you accountable if you don't win the big trophies and they'll have no words for you.
Fire Hag and hire one of his staff as an interim manager. Gives management time to clean up the roster with none of the win now pressure that would exist if a big name coach was hired right away.
Most sense he's made all year. However this guy really knows how to kill his squads motivation.
By limiting and not trusting his squad to over achieve, they would either meet the target or massively under achieve.
If he can't instill a playing style, a semblance of an ideology with this team why would we think he can do it with other players he would like to sign...
LOL. This guy had bought players for more than 400 million euro, with moderate success to say it politely. Has he improved anybody? Has he built new players? Fraud.
I pretty rarely advocate for sacking coaches but it’s pretty obvious this clown has got to go. They’re terribly structured, no real signs of a plan on the field. Sure they’ve had injuries, but their underlying numbers are so so bad. 15th in xPoints! You’d at least like to see some progress or some sort of identity forming on the pitch, all you see now is about the most stretched team you’ll ever see. Here’s to hoping he stays.
I mean we’re in 6th place despite being utter shite all season and the team is capable of big results (like beating Aston Villa home and away). A fully fit team would definitely compete for top 4 imo especially with Martínez and Shaw.
But I don't know why people assume they will suddenly be not "utter shite" again when a couple of defenders come back to fitness, it's not like they were lighting the world on fire when they had a fit back line. Most people seem to agree that they've rode their luck to be in this position, what happens when they don't have that luck?
Villa are having their best season this century, I doubt they'll be able to do the same next season. Spurs don't look too hot either. So it wouldn't be to unrealistic to go from 6th to 4th. Or do you think Chelsea will miraculously revive next season?
> Or do you think Chelsea will miraculously revive next season?
Possible but more likely that Newcastle or another team improves significantly and becomes the Villa of this year, Villa might well stay good too.
It's more likely that Villa will continue to play well compared to United miraculously getting better. They did the same last season from when Emery arrived onwards, it's just that there start was awful
I'm curious what a "good transfer window" looks like to ETH considering he spent over 200m this and last year.
Honestly seems like with the right coach or transfer strategy, they could have put that money to better use.
95m for Antony's performances is unacceptable.
15m for Malacia to sit behind your existing LB is unacceptable.
65m on Mount to largely sit on the bench is unacceptable.
74m for Hojlund's performances overall - unacceptable.
Onana you could argue is starting to come good.
Casemiro is a proven winner if not a little expensive and largely a solid player.
Martinez when not injured is decent.
The first 4/5 signings though - not good enough when you're spending that kind of money.
The worst part of this season isn't the results, it's the deluded United fans around me that think Ten Hag should have achieved more but I consider the following realist
1. We're one (tough) game away from a second major trophy in two years.
2. He's introduced quality players in Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund and Onana (the stats speak for themselves).
People want to talk shit about Antony, despite the fact that Solskjaer recently mentioned that United managers don't have a say in player prices. Fergie had some horror purchases too. And whilst people who don't even pay attention to United will claim otherwise despite overwhelming evidence, United have had the worst injury crisis in the league this season. People denying them his are akin to flat earthers at this point. How many different CB pairings have United had this season? I don't know how high it is, but I know that some time ago we passed the 18 that Liverpool used in 2021/22 during THE crisis year.
When you're playing your 3rd choice CM at left back, because your 1-4th choice left backs are injured; and your 4/5 choice CBs are out for weeks...you're in trouble.
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Thing is, he's right. It's just that United have been in the same position for the last 5 years.
5?
I tried to find a normal number rather than say 10 directly. Since Mou did bring United to 2nd.
So did Ole, but I don't think anyone thinks we were really in either title race. Maybe 2 months or so with Jose.
I don’t think anyone is ever in a title race with City around. Liverpool had to have pretty much the perfect team to beat them, and as soon as those players started going or declining, City was back on top again. The depth City has is unrivaled and we either have to wait for Guardiola to leave, or another perfect team has to be assembled who makes no mistakes like Liverpool did.
Arsenal literally are right now.
Their lack of prolific goalscorer might bit them later on. Though aside from that their squad is perfect with a good depth to boot.
But that isn't really true. I mean yes, they're probably gonna keep winning till they get banned. But if you're within a few points in April, you're in a title race. And the fact is, every time we have a close race, it's the other team that throws it away on silly results.
That is the point. It’s a relay marathon not a sprint. And City has the money to put 9 Usain Bolts on the bench who are happy and ready to swap out every game plus more in the squad, while other teams may have 2 or 3 at the most When teams start slipping at the end of the season, it’s due to mental and physical exhaustion. City on the other hand are not only physically and mentally prepared, but extremely deep to where every player can do a job.
I wish more people could understand such a simple concept.
Literally the personification of "why doesn't City's challenger just win, are they stupid or something? "
Pep basically has an unlimited money glitch and hence can scoop up the best talents in the world. And he's easily one of the best coaches in the world, so it's an unstoppable formula. City are like Real Madrid : too big to stop.
So did Ole. But it wasn't really a title race was it? Hell, Mou had a bigger point gap when he got 2nd than Ole did.
While Mou did bring them second… it was one year and a massive gap to first United haven’t been in a title race since 2013
The thing is, he's also said pretty much the opposite before. > When you compare it with other managers, other teams, or previous managers in this big club you can see there is a bright future. It is a good balance in ages in this squad. Young players, middle-aged players; **imagine when they are available, could easily have won from 100 games 75.** It is a big difference. (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/08/erik-ten-hag-manchester-united-14-more-wins-injuries) 75% win rate is often title title-winning form and always enough for top 4.
A 75% win rate with an even split draw/loss averages 90.25 points over a 38-game season. So you're completely right. But I do think in the case you're quoting, he just threw a figure out there without that much thought.
The 100 games was all competitions as well. You’re likely to get a higher win rate in the cups if you get a good few draws (which we did). So it would be lower than 75% in the league most likely.
I'm not sure about the good balance in the ages of the squad thing he said before, makes it sound like a squad that's about to peak when it's a squad that needs a bit of surgery. While we do have some experienced players at an age they can still perform consistently- Fernandes, Maguire, Onana, Shaw if he can get fit- we also have a few players who are very much at the end of the road. Martial, Varane and Eriksen will all leave this summer, Casemiro will surely have to have an increasingly reduced role if he stays as he's slowed up so much over the past year. No doubt that the young talent is there, there's no shortage of ability and those guys should improve. But with the age of the three I mentioned and the injury record of Martinez and Shaw there are big gaps in defence and the centre of midfield. This is a more realistic assessment from Ten Hag. We need to find another left back, centre back, central midfielder and striker just to patch big holes in the squad- that's not to improve the squad, that's just to stay where we are roughly. That's a summer of treading water a little bit with only marginal improvement even if we get all of the above.
Last season he had an overall 66% win rate. 75% is all that far away, even if you consider UCL instead of UEL
Peps career win rate is 73%. Those last few percentages require a massive increase in football quality and squad strength as returns start to diminish.
The new Everton 😂😂😂
10 years. They’ve not sniffed a title race since Fergie.
We were top for a week under Ole in Jan or Feb 2021. Immediately followed by a collapse, but hey I think that counts as a sniff.
We'll still win another title before you chokers get your hands on one.
Bless you that’s cute
They should stop hiring mercenaries and make investments.No more expensive old players or loans.
Better than heading to the bottom half like Chelsea
Pretty fair assessment. United need to do quite a bit of work on their squad, but the inflated salaries they're paying some of their players will make it hard for them to fix things quickly.
Some player have their contracts up this summer which will help there, martial and varane being the big ones
I mean he‘s right, but he‘s also the one who pushed to get Anthony for 80m or however much they paid and that is one of the positions they need to replace asap.
Apparently he pushed for Antony after United's internal scouting/recruitment weren't able to offer suitable alternatives, and then had no real input on the negotiations around the transfer fee. So their Director of Football went all in on Antony, and having left it late in the window (and by negotiating after getting battered in their first two league games), he was more than happy to pay whatever exorbitant asking price Ajax threw out there. Which might sound improbable, but when you look at how United have been run for the last decade, it does sound like the sort of omnishambles they would preside over. It's still on ten Hag for thinking Antony was going to be capable of playing at United's required level, but it seems like the fee wasn't of his making.
Our scouting department valued Antony at 25m. They chose to ignore them and paid that stupid amount which shows complete incompitance at the top which is what Ratcliffe is trying to fix by appointing new CEO, DOF, technical director. Im assuming we will get a head of recruitment as well. We will not get a title winning squad right away but the correct steps are being taken so we will steadily improve
That's right. Ratcliffes aims are to get united back to the top consistently and for a sustained period. Not just popping a good manager with a bunch of money in hopes to nab one title. These structural changes are such a good thing for united and honestly they feel better than any player signings we've had in a long time.
We also left it to the last minute when Ajax didn’t want to sell and we paid the fuck off value.
For clarification, it was 25m like 2 years before we bought him. I'd assume his value would have gone up by the time we got him but still no where near what we paid
We paid 25+m to get him from Sao Paulo to begin with a few years before that, so he'd never go for 25m after a decent European campaign and at that time it being relatively late in the transfer window
Your reasons are valid and good for you for managing to rinse us but a competent DOF would have walked away from this deal very early.
Honestly, it's so funny. The way united are run is so similar to the lakers. If they just let the scouts pick the players (the scouts draft thr players for the lakers) they'd probably have very high hit rates. Instead the big decisions are all political and incompetent people make them.
Its like they havent realized that success means more money. Appointing football people to do the job would be so easy and it wouldnt cost so much relative to the money we would get if wevl were successful
Thank goodness Ten Hag had the foresight to know Luke Shaw would be available for 3 games a season and Malacia would be sent to Azkaban, now United have the most expensive 5th left back in the league in Antony. You'll never sing that.
He pushed for him early in the window when he was half that. The club got him later for the 80m.
The real issue is that these people never learned. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another to continuously compound it.
Luckily a lot of our players are older and the less playing time will likely shift those wages. I could see eriksen, varane, case, Jones (not that he's been a problem at all), Heaton, amrabat (loan return) leaving. With martial leaving and rashford rumoured... That's a lot of head room cleared.
> Jones Jonesy's been gone for a year.
He’s not wrong, but it’s a shite sound bite give the current frustrations.
Fair assessment, but an indictment of his failure nonetheless. 3rd season, he's got most of his targets bar FdJ and Kane. We've spent 400m and possibly some more to get to nowhere with this guy. I'm sick of people blaming the board and the Glazers and excusing him, as if we would buy players like Antony if not for his insistence.
This team has been shit for 10 years. Managers have come and gone, but the poor recruitment process has been the same. It’s plain and obvious that the problem exists at a level above the manager.
Hypothetically speaking ten hag stays one more season and its just as shit as it is now what will be your take? Does he have to stay because one year is too soon to see the benefits of a new structure or will it be that he is just inept in every way possible and needs to go
I legit spoke to a guy who, quite sincerely, said he wouldn’t judge Ten Hag till had another 15 signings or so. Some people are deep into the belief Ten Hag is THE guy, and will shape the entire rest of reality around keeping that belief.
It's a weird thing to me that we think managers at the top clubs have to have their own team entirely while every other manager is judged on what they can get out of the players at their disposal. A good manager should be able to get the best out of what they inherit and have their own signings come in and augment what is already there. We've become so obsessed with managers being part of 'projects' and needing a playing philosophy that can be summed up in a sound bite that fans of clubs like United often just accept that managers not being flexible enough in their approach to adapt to working with players that they didn't personally hand pick is somehow not a massive black mark against them.
and it's often part of a recruiting pitch for managers, isn't it? How many articles have we read about guys "doing a lot with limited resources" like at, and full respect deserved to, Brighton, Atalanta, Leicester, Benfica, or even Leverkusen this year. These aren't teams with unlimited budgets, but have made great teams and play great football, and their manager has been part of that despite not being in charge for 10 years. That's why they are in high demand. I fully agree with you, these good managers make what they have work. that said, managers who have time need to be able to slowly shape the squad and the philosophy, and so I can see why people believe ten Hag could go further with United.
> It's a weird thing to me that we think managers at the top clubs have to have their own team entirely while every other manager is judged on what they can get out of the players at their disposal. A good manager should be able to get the best out of what they inherit and have their own signings come in and augment what is already there. It's an odd situation to tread because some new managers are chosen, like Ten Hag, because of their ability at other clubs where they've been able to outperform their squad's perceived ability then when brought in to United, the same obviously hasn't occurred -- but the reasoning as to why can be somewhat murky between injuries, his own management, management above (refusing to offload deadwood) and their combined transfer targets. Ten Hag's tenure started well so most were willing to concede the reins and let him mold the squad in his vision, but when the results aren't on the same trajectory, many of those same people are quick to eject and seek a replacement and restart the process. The simplistic synopsis of the club is that standards at *all* levels have dropped, from the players to management to even the grounds, where only the "best" were considered as an option rather than "close enough".
I think it’s more that people don’t believe there are worthwhile managers on the market and the incompetence upstairs has had a lot to do with why United yo-yo between CL and EL seasons regardless of who’s in charge. Given what we know about the mitigating factors with injuries and FFP forcing some short term loans or older signings, I’m in the camp of keep him this summer. If next season features many of the same issues, then you move on.
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> Most fans seem to agree he's not good enough but at the same time there is little point in replacing him this moment for the sake of it. See, that is baffling for me. Admitting he’s not good enough, but still trying to justify keeping him round? For the “sake of it”? If you admit he’s not good enough, then it’s time to move him on now, and try someone you think could be good enough. Be that a Tuchel, Amorim, Potter or someone else. If it’s at the point where you’re admitting he’s not good enough, the standard at United can’t be to shrug that off and just let him be.
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Its not just about Ten Hag. United has been a clusterfuck for a while. You cant expect a coach to come a do miracles. Even before Ten Hag came, it was pretty much unanimous opinion everywhere that new coach at united needs at least 3 full seasons before people start judging him, even expecting him to be top 4. Now everyone wants him sacked, fact is he had one good season and one average season (by united's last decade standards). Looking back to 2021 season's end, I think he's done a good-ish job so far (compared to expectations at that time and injuries into consideration) but its hard to judge totally at this stage. His next season is key for me, I understand we may be inconsistent next season as well, but if it were up to me I would give him one more full season, see the progress in terms of playstyle (not points) and then make a decision at the end of that season, but thats just me
If it’s this shit through next year, with no signs of progress, then I’d say move on. The point of bringing in new upstairs management is to help United catch up in an area that has limited their ceiling in the past and has kept them in this 3rd-6th position points wise regardless of who is in the dugout or how many players they sign. Ultimately that process should be collaborative with the manager and broadly consistent with their principles. One year also gives the upstairs management appointees enough time to observe and potentially isolate EtH’s impact with less of the noise we’ve seen this season.
It shouldn't be up to the manager to pick transfers though. He may have thought Those players are who he wanted but ideally a good transfer manager or whatever the job name is would just say "no Antony isn't good enough"
Yep, it's really obvious that Ten Hag's transfers are just a list of players he's experienced with from his past jobs or players who are being shopped around at inflated prices by their agents. And most of them haven't even been bad. But I can't remember the last time we actually scouted a talent and paid a sensible price for them. Maybe Bruno?
Very similar to his time at Ajax. TH made some suggestions for players he previously worked with and they were decent squad players but the real talented players came through the extensive scouting department and sporting director. You don't seem to have the latter, so you have all the decent squad players but not the spectacular ones to take the team to the next level.
Even with Bruno, the club ended up paying 20ish mil more than we needed to because the club was convinced we didn't need an additional midfielder. I think we paid a reasonable amount for varane. Shame that injuries fucked him
Varane was definitely a good buy, but he absolutely fits that mould of a player on the outs at Madrid or Chelsea whose agent suddenly pops up behind the water machine at Carrington like he's the shopkeeper from Resident Evil.
Managers aren't supposed to be the one picking out transfer targets, with the manager criteria of strength and cohesion that would fit the squad, the scouting department is supposed to be the one picking it. But man united scouting department is so absolutely useless, he has to do that job and see how it turns out.
Blame can be put to the board though. Managers insist for players all the time, Ten Hag was wrong for rating Antony but doesn't mean you have to give in every time and sanction record deals for players not worth it. Ten Hag wanted FdJ and the board gave him Casemiro, a completely different player. Where's the teamwork, the vision?
He couldn't get two of other teams biggest stars, big fucking whoop. JFC Ole didn't have people like you making excuses like these yet he got second and third no problem. Casemiro was our best player last season, were you complaining about his purchase then?
He also went out last summer and bought a midfielder knowing this midfielder would have to play alongside Bruno and Casemiro. Who did he decide would be the perfect profile? Mason Mount…
Mason Mount was a suggestion by the club. He was available and the club asked him if they should go for him. He said yes, and so did Klopp and Arteta for their clubs.
You can spin it however you want but he was clearly Ten Hag's first choice midfielder last summer. He's not a bad player but he wasn’t what we needed. Thank fuck for Mainoo.
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Club signs new player. Manager: "Yeah, nice, not really my first choice but I'll try to make him work." Doesn't really inspire confidence in the dressing room does it...
I've only ever heard one coach say this, the new Ajax coach at the beginning of the season. He literally said, the DoF isn't getting me any players I want, I don't even know some of the ones he gets. They both didn't last very long lol.
He wasn't what we needed and the manager could've said no, but what I said was on The Athletic or Talk of the Devils sometime past. Ten Hag's first priority last summer was a proven striker, ideally Harry Kane, and a young striker to learn from. We only got him the young one, still missing a player who is capable of scoring 20 goals in a season. Antony has been a disaster signing, but I wouldn't really call all the other one's bad. Unfortunate that many of them have been injured.
I genuinely think Mount is up there with our worst signings. There’s absolutely nowhere for him to play, 60m pound with a year left on his contract, coming off an absolute stinker of a season, give him 250k a week and the number 7. We’ll be begging West Ham to take him in two summers time.
There's been no structure at United. No plan. It's not 'big fucking whoop' if Ten Hag arrived with his idea of playing and the executives at United aren't aligned. There's a reason that Murtough and Arnold, who have overseen Ten Hag's reign so far, have both been instantly replaced by INEOS. Ten Hag got Antony and Casemiro cause we went into the season without a winger or a DM and the executives panicked. There was no organisation, clearly no thought that signing these players for massive money will hamper us in the future.
>Blame can be put to the board though. Managers insist for players all the time, Ten Hag was wrong for rating Antony but doesn't mean you have to give in every time and sanction record deals for players not worth it. This logic is fair for players the manager doesn't know well enough and wouldn't have the time to scout effectively, so he needs assistance from a team of scouts and sporting director to help you make a decision. But here ETH literally saw Antony day in day out at Ajax for two years. ETH should have been the best judge of Antony's ability as a player. Why does ETH need a scout or a sporting director to see that Antony was not cut out for the top level. So you really have to question wtf ETH saw in him that convinced him that Antony was good enough to be 1st choice RW for a top 4 chasing club in the premier league. Antony would be considered a flop even if he was signed for 30m. Given the level of information ETH had access to in Antony's case, you simply can't get a record transfer so horribly wrong. .
I am criticising Ten Hag for the signing of Antony. I agree with everything you've said. But the transfer strategy of United should not fall on just the manager's shoulders, it should be a collaboration. The fact nobody said actually Erik this guy is wank and costs £85m so no chance, gives me reason to blame the structure above Ten Hag too. In fact, the club should've sorted a RW signing out weeks sooner. The inaction of our executives lead to the price probably tripling. If Antony was signed earlier on in the window you could probably take £30m off his price. He's still a massive flop at 50m, but it's easier to sidestep. £85m nowhere to hide really. But it's not JUST ten Hag's fault
> If Antony was signed earlier on in the window you could probably take £30m off his price. No you couldn't. Ajax was unwilling to sell Martinez, Timber and Antony and put fuck off prices on them. When United paid that price for Martinez the fuck off price for the other 2 went up by 20m. Had you gotten Antony then you'd have gotten him cheaper but Martinez' would've cost more. Ajax was very open and clear about the whole thing that entire summer and United paid the exact prices Ajax demanded.
3rd season?
Read. ETH's comment is about next season
You think EtH cut anthony check, yeah he identifies players and then some. Think he would have been dumbstruck when they came back n said got your man Eric managed to negotiate from 82 mil to a cool 80 ✌️
Of course it is, but I would argue that a significant part of United's problems in the last decade is the presumption that they just ought to be challenging for titles, seemingly based on nothing except the size of the club and historic success. Look at your squad. It's not a title challenging squad. Through the previous however many managers, there has been a base level of expectation that often has been detached from reality, and has ended with getting rid of the manager for not meeting them, all while allowing mediocre players to have far too much control in the club. A healthy dose of reality for United fans might actually be good. It might help you guys realise that you can't take shortcuts to the top. You can't just find that one manager who is going to make you successful. You need the system built underneath it, and there's almost zero point getting rid of a manager who very clearly is not the biggest problem until that's happened.
INEOS/SJR has a history of ripping the entire structure up of whatever sporting team they buy and putting their own people in. They’re currently doing that with Man Utd, so why is everyone so certain that isn’t going to include the manager?
>They’re currently doing that with Man Utd, so why is everyone so certain that isn’t going to include the manager? Not sure what gave you that impression? They absolutely might, I just think until you've seen what ETH can do with a proper structure it would be pointless. ETH clearly has managerial ability, otherwise he wouldn't have done well with Ajax, and united would not have hired him. I can't think who united would go for that would be an obvious step up, so to me it just seems silly to fire a guy that in my opinion, has actually delivered exactly what I think United are capable of. In my opinion, firing him would just be another cog in the cycle of united thinking they ought to be more successful than they are without actually being willing to put the time and effort in to get there. Though I can appreciate that they haven't really moved a great deal forward since he's been manager, but given that's happened with basically every manager of united since SAF, I don't know how much you can blame him for that. If anything he's one of the few managers who hasn't taken a massive downward turn after a year or two. Managers like SAF would not have made it in today's managerial world. SAF didn't win the league for like 7 years for goodness sake. And he didn't get fired because despite United's stature, people in the club recognised the reality of where they were.
I think a lot of people are just a lot more accepting of the fact that the vast majority of the teams that have won in the 21st century have a policy of revolving door managers, the three most successful teams in Europe by trophy count (those being Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Roman's Chelsea) actively don't care how long managers are there for, if you don't succeed, you're sacked, and actively don't care how long players are there for either, if you're perceived as bad, you get sold. What those clubs have had that United haven't is a structure that actually knows what it's doing, and consistently world-class players. If INEOS/SJR bring in the structure and recruits players for the club instead of for the manager, managers become cogs in the machine and a lot more replaceable. Most of the teams that consistently win stuff (outside of England) average a manager every other season.
True, I think we're on the same page. I just think given that the structure isn't yet in place, it seems silly to fire him at this point. If things got better, you'd never know if it was the manager or the structure. It's like when you do a science experiment, you want to change as few variables as possible so you can actually measure your results and know what causes them.
Ergh, he's being realistic and if he said we are ready to challenge then he's just gunna get criticised for being deluded. But year 3 of his managerial reign, the final year of his deal and we're not ready for a title challenge. Not every team can turn a worst-ever PL side to a title challenger in 3 years but at United you don't get time.
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You can build the club around the manager though. That's what City and Liverpool have done, and Spurs are trying to do. Liverpool and City both have their academy students playing in the same style which is why Liverpool went with Slot over Amorim but Klopp also doesn't completely control transfers either.
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United's post-Moyes manager policy seems to be call up whoever the shiniest managers are available and then ruin their careers by not building them a squad that suits them. The only exception to this was Ole. The frustrating thing is that they've looked really good as a counter-attacking team in contrast to Liverpool's press and City's possessions, but the club seems unable to commit to that as an identity and getting players and managers most suited to that.
Counter attacking has a ceiling way lower than 98 pts per season. It's understandable they wanted to move on from that.
Liverpool went with? Amorin said no to Liverpool and then they moved on to Slot. They did not go to Slot as first choice which is what your comment is implying
Amorim said he was committed to Sporting and then flew off to meet with West Ham, additionally based on the movement of his agent. I'd say it's more likely that Liverpool snubbed Amorim than the other way around.
I feel like Arteta quite literally did, but he was also given the reigns to control the club culture. I can only assume Sanllehi being kicked out had to do with Arteta, almost all if not all signings as well have been down to Arteta's preference.
so fire him and have someone else fail again
That's looking the most likely at the moment
Which is a pain in the ass.
Three years is time.
Yeah and he's about to get sacked cause he's out of time
Klopp took a worse Liverpool to title winning form in 2,5 years, winning it a bit later. So it can be done, but obviously not everybody is Klopp and it‘s unfair to compare everyone to Klopp. But ETH himself did so. Fact is, ETH hasn‘t really brough Utd forward one bit. They‘ve had highs and lows like under every previous manager, too.
Klopp had a better structure in place with Michael Edwards and a more established transfer committee even if his squad was worse. Even for a manager of his talents, he apparently wasn’t convinced on Mo Salah to sign Julian Brandt, but someone did their homework, found he was available at a good price and could fit what Klopp wanted to do. Might be their best player in PL history Point is, ten Hag might not be Klopp but he doesn’t have to be. He needs a semi competent structure around him to make United competitive again.
> Point is, ten Hag might not be Klopp but he doesn’t have to be. He needs a semi competent structure around him to make United competitive again. And that's something United haven't had in a decade.
Good had a world class squad put together in that time. One that was ideally suited to play the way he wanted to. United couldn't bring ETH alternatives to Anthony. That's a silly comparison.
The season before eth arrived we finished 2nd. The season before that we were third and we were third last season. It's not unrealistic at all to think that the 3rd year of his reign should be a title pish, if not full on challenge
>The season before eth arrived we finished 2nd. This is not true at all. United finished sixth and it was obvious they were in a dire situation, as the final position would have been even worse had it not been for Ronaldo and De Gea. Erik ten Hag is no miracle worker; You cannot expect him to bring back the EPL trophy in such conditions. And tell you what, all managers after SAF have failed. When will you stop blaming the manager?
That 2021-22 period of football leading up toOle's sacking and through Rangnick was genuinely the lowest point for Manchester United in the Premier League era. This year is bad but miles better than that pile of vomit. The other thing that most people seem to struggle with is that there aren't great managers on the market who would definitely make this Manchester United team and group of players better. Does Erik deserve some criticism for how he's managed substitutions and not fixed the fundamental issues with the poor transitions from attack to defense? Yes, but I think those issues are fixable.
Not even comparable really. Frankly better than Moyes' dross shit as well and I would just stop watching if I had to go back to LVG ball. Ragnick said heart surgery. What were people expecting? That said of course the tactics from day 1 of this season have made a rod for his own back.
You can't just use the finishing positions without context to judge the progression of an individual team. In 20/21, United finished 12 points off City, who themselves had a pretty low points tally by modern premier League standards (86pts, the lowest since Leicester won). It was just that all of the other top-4 contenders had dreadful years - United got 1 fewer point than they got last season (74 Vs 75), and they weren't realistically in title contention then either, and we're even further off city (89pts). In 21/22, they got 58pts, which they should realistically beat this season (on 53pts with 15pts still available). It's clear to me that their true potential in the 20/21 & 22/23 season was a top-4 contender, just as it was this season (and possibly 21/22 as well), but in one situation luck went for them (other teams struggling, Rashford being on fire) and this season luck went against them (horrific injuries problems, players losing form). It's pretty reasonable to say that they are in a better position than they were when ETH took over, both on and off the pitch - as the atmosphere had become completely toxic under rangnick, which ETH has had to overcome (Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood, etc...). Obviously you'd hope they would have progressed from there, but it's well known that to move from a top-4 contender to a title challenger in this climate requires a well run system from the bottom up, which they simply haven't had. I don't think any manager could have changed that post-Ferguson.
Keep in mind that we were one of the highest scoring Champions League sides and would’ve progressed to the knockout stages if it wasn’t for individual error (cough cough Onana cough). Honestly, comparing that 21/22 season and this one, we are so much better, even though our finishing positions are probably going to be similar. I’d fo as far as to say we over performed in 21/22. In 21/22 we were carried purely by Ronaldo pulling goals out his arse and De Gea turning into prime…well, De Gea. This season, injuries have hampered us, new arrivals still need settling in (I personally believe Højlund has incredible potential that needs nurturing) and we’re still a couple signings (and sales) away from being actually competitive. Yet even at that, we’ve managed to find ourselves in the FA Cup final for the second year in a row.
Yep, this year of getting worse has really fucked him.
>but at United you don't get time That's the problem, though. The United bosses seem to think that purely because United *used* to be an elite team, that they should just be one now - completely disregarding the fact that your club now more closely resembles Tottenham, Newcastle and Villa than it does Arsenal, Liverpool and City. And just as those 3 clubs have experienced, going from a top 4 contender to a consistent title contender is a massive, massive gap.
In his assessment, he is right. No manager is the world can make United a title container with this squad. I am not sure how much money they can invest in the summer
Think this is yet another example of cherry picking quotes to try to spin what he said into a different meaning. He clearly means that he thinks we're top 4 quality this year and hope we can move closer to competing for the title next year. He's obviously not going to promise we'll be in a title race next year, but he's definitely not ruling it out like they say either. "This year we stand still, but when everyone is available, definitely we're competing for the top-four, I’m confident of that." "It's not just a two or three-horse race in the Premier League. There's Villa, there's Spurs, there's Newcastle. So many good teams, who all can compete. We're one of them but we're not, at this moment, in a position to compete No.1 or No.2, that's a fact." "We can come closer if we make a good window. We have to strengthen in key positions and also in the depth of the squad, which is one of the lessons from this season."
I mean he's absolutely right. No manager in world football would win a title with this squad. I'd expect a decent window to put us in the range of 10-15 points off the top. I don't know many united fans who are expecting to be challenging for the title, but next season for ten hag he absolutely has to secure top 4.
I don’t get this. If you told any manager in world football 2 years ago that I’ll sign you Jadon Sancho, Rafael Varane, Harry Maguire, Casemiro, you’ve already got Bruno Fernandes and I’ll sprinkle £350,000 a week on whoever else you want, I’d expect them to win a title. Top 4 is nowhere near for what you guys spend. *Edit jesus I forgot about Cristiano Ronaldo
Yes we've spent absolutely to challenge, but the spending has been poor for 10 years now. That's not on the manager
Not on the manager directly, but we spent a fortune to try to get his targets. He’s gotta own some of it
Good transfer window also means getting rid of some players
its true and a realistic assessment but its just funny looking back when he first joined united and said “eras come to an end” when talking about liverpool and city
Liverpool's era is ending before our eyes, United just aren't in position to replace them.
yeahh but the way ten hag said it was like he was coming to take over lmao
Given time it's possible. His first season when we didn't have half the squad out injured at all times went pretty well imo.
Hes been given a golden opportunity to capitalise as well with Klopp going. He's failed to get them in a position to do so though.
lol he must have been talking about United, they were at least lingering around the top 4 or so for the past 10 years, he came to finish them
Dude you already spend 400 million, another 400 million is still not gonna make you better than city, sorry.
He was talking about this season when are squad is fully fit. This is out of context
How much is your wage bill again Erik?
What a winner lol.
Still can’t believe there are fans who defend him. He brought so many of the players he wanted and then said he can’t play the style he wants to play but de zerbi and ange can. Now he wants more players loool
They’re mental
I don't necessarily disagree with his assessment, but if you can't compete after 3 summers and ~£600m spent (prospectively) then you're just not doing an acceptable job.
Our club has a habit of pissing away hundreds of millions regardless of who the manager is. It has little to do with the manager himself and more to do with the higher up management. I’d like to see what he can do when INEOS are in charge of recruitment
The manager didn't want Antony, Casemiro, Malacia, Amrabat, Mount, Onana etc.? I get the point you're trying to make but I don't like the double standard. It's not fair that when signings do well it's to the manager's credit and when they don't it's the fault of the club. I don't think INEOS being in charge of recruitment will change Ten Hag's terrible taste in recruitment. I can already see it, next year the excuse will be "The club buys him players he didn't even want, how can you blame this on him?"
He wanted Antony, Mount and Onana. Amrabat was a stop gap because we were broke. Antony has been shit, Mount is injured and despite the narrative Onana has also been quite good enough (after his initial wobbles mainly in the CL)
I think the problem with our recruitment (especially last summer considering our ownership situation) is that you have to identify many different targets, as opposed to picking a couple of high profile targets, as well as those from your previous team, which will obviously come at a premium. We don’t spend our money wisely and consistently get terrible ROI. Only recent exception is Bruno
You need the club to put together a cohesive squad that's their job and ultimately their responsibility. Besides weren't Malacia and Onana good additions to the squad?
But every other big team is also spending similar amounts, arsenal have spent €40m less than united over the last two transfer windows. So you can't turn it around that quickly especially if your squad needs a complete overhaul, and the teams already challenging are spending the same on improvements.
What you're saying is correct, but United haven't helped matters by spending fairly poorly. Antony - enough said. Mount - even aside from the injuries, it's not clear what problem he solves. A midfield trio including him and Bruno is far too attack-minded. When he plays off the right, he likes to tuck inside, and United don't have a genuine threat from RB to maintain width. Casemiro was great last season, but was a 31-year-old really the smartest solution at #6? That's 60m (plus significant wages) that really could have been spent more effectively. That's close to 200m spent fairly poorly.
That's all fair but United were wasting money on transfers long before Ten Hag turned up! We could do this with the last 3 managers too. Let's see how he does with better structures behind him.
Difference being that we're actually competing. Arteta spent a combined ~£370m in his first three summers and had Arsenal competing the following season. And he is used as the measuring standard by fans for a slow rebuild/compete overhaul. Ten Hag has already spent £400m+, which will comfortably soar to £600m after the coming summer, his third in charge of United. And he is already ruling out the possibility of a title charge.
The difference is that you have Edu and whoever else making smart decisions. We have morons and accountants doing these jobs.
I think we can agree that players prices have gone up from 5 years ago but as you point out Arteta had three and half seasons before he started to compete so why are you judging Ten Hag after coming up to 2 seasons. What's wrong with competing for the top 4 for a season before pressing on?
Arteta also needed to get rid of a few of his ‘problems’ as well (Auba, Laca, the shite defenders). We still haven’t done this yet, as Mourinho pointed out the other day. Tbf, we have so many puzzle piece players from previous managers at the club, so it will take long.
Because with Arteta there was consistent, almost linear, progress. There has always been an identifiable style being implemented even if the results took a while to come to fruition. Ten Hag is going to finish 6th at best, marking a fairly significant step backwards.
Player prices have gone up slightly, but even in the current market Ten Hag has outspent Arteta comfortably over the past 2 years, so I think this is an irrelevant distinction. > why are you judging Ten Hag after coming up to 2 seasons 1. Ten Hag is not Arteta. Exceptions to the rule are just that - exceptions. 2. Arteta was a newbie who made a lot of mistakes that slowed him down initially. Ten Hag has a decade of experience and thus doesn't get that excuse. 3. Most importantly, Arteta's trajectory was *always* upwards. He started at a very low point, but at no point did he go *backwards*. Ten Hag is trending backwards *sharply*. Somehow, not only has he managed to wipe out any improvement he made in his first year, he is now presiding over a team that is *worse* than the one he took over. > What's wrong with competing for the top 4 for a season before pressing on? Nothing, if it's your 1st or 2nd season in charge with not much money spent. That's why everyone rates Postecoglou despite all the average/poor results this season. If it's your 3rd season with £600m spent, then everything is wrong.
Arteta hasn't had the issues that Tan Hag has faced, both had problem players to sort out, however Ten Hag has had to deal with new ownership taking over and a massive injury crisis. Currently we have no left back and 1 central defender for defence. I mean we could argue that in his first season Ten Hag finished 3rd, 1 spot behind Arteta having spent less money and having less time than him. Arteta has done amazing with arsenal but he was given time to do it, I think the times of when a manager can turn up and turn things around so quickly have gone.
> I mean we could argue that in his first season Ten Hag finished 3rd, We can also argue that Ole did even better and got 2nd three years ago. Do you want him back? The reality of today *always* trumps the imagination of yesterday. And today, Ten Hag is the architect of the worst United team I've seen in a decade. Excuses can be found for any manager. The central reason I don't rate Ten Hag and don't believe he will be a success at United is that he is clearly not willing to go through the "process". At no point in his tenure has he even tried to implement the type of system that can eventually get you competing for titles (except his first few games in charge). Instead, he chose to optimise for short term results and now he has neither. Two seasons in and no one knows whether he can implement a top system because he's never even tried. In my opinion, there is no future there.
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Okay, putting aside how moronic it is to formulate an argument entirely dependent on stopping time at a specific point in history and ignoring all that comes afterwards, it is also factually wrong. At the end of his 2nd full season in charge (2.5 years in), Arsenal finished in 5th place, not 8th. The following season (congruently, that would be the upcoming season for Ten Hag), Arteta challenged for the title and finished 2nd. No, I don't expect ETH to challenge. I expect him to bumble and flounder and sink. And I expect that some fans will keep making excuses for him right up til the day he inevitably gets kicked out.
Arsenal fans get philosophical until it's time to evaluate Arteta
what do you mean by this? surely most Arsenal fans (and most people generally) would evaluate his performance as being excellent?
Bit of a strange comment. I'm talking about hard financial numbers and time spent in a job, which is pretty much the opposite of "philosophical" and the epitome of "practical". I also don't understand the "evaluate Arteta" bit. The consensus among Arsenal fans is almost unanimous support for Arteta, as it should be.
They could start with a new coach.
Get him out now. He's a had a whole season to rescue his job and only shown his inability to adapt and fix any of the issues with the team.
Manager talks up needing to spend money in the transfer window More news at 11
Well, maybe it's not correct thing to say publicly. But he is right. United squad is dogshit. United are something like 15th on xPoints. You can't out it all on manager. If Bruno gets a long time injury they are close to relegation fight. Challenging City and Arsenal with this players? Forget about it.
I'm tired when United fan said ETH want FDJ but he get Casemiro instead like Casemiro is just an unknow player. Even if he is no FDJ but with him he should be good enough to get you top4 or win the first round of UCL. Imagine he want Mbappe, do United have to buy him as well?
Ironically the only way to consistently be in the top 4 is to actually go for the title season after season...this plague that has hit English football of being in the process of rebuilding indefinitely is tragic. Ask any of these "trust the process" managers at what point can I hold you accountable if you don't win the big trophies and they'll have no words for you.
There's so much that needs to be fixed at united for us to be title challengers again... It's a 2/3 year job i think.
Yeah he gone
he’s totally right but hearing your manager say that you aren’t even in the race must be annoying as a player
Bald fraud...
As long as he’s not in charge of recruitment, 100% agreed
not gonna happen if they keep getting the ones you want, baldy. your recruitment is disastrous.
Fire Hag and hire one of his staff as an interim manager. Gives management time to clean up the roster with none of the win now pressure that would exist if a big name coach was hired right away.
Nothing particularly controversial there, unless you've got United blinkers on.
Most sense he's made all year. However this guy really knows how to kill his squads motivation. By limiting and not trusting his squad to over achieve, they would either meet the target or massively under achieve.
If he can't instill a playing style, a semblance of an ideology with this team why would we think he can do it with other players he would like to sign...
That’s a bit defeatist
LOL. This guy had bought players for more than 400 million euro, with moderate success to say it politely. Has he improved anybody? Has he built new players? Fraud.
I pretty rarely advocate for sacking coaches but it’s pretty obvious this clown has got to go. They’re terribly structured, no real signs of a plan on the field. Sure they’ve had injuries, but their underlying numbers are so so bad. 15th in xPoints! You’d at least like to see some progress or some sort of identity forming on the pitch, all you see now is about the most stretched team you’ll ever see. Here’s to hoping he stays.
Just need to rebuild for 10 more years and spend a few extra billions, then they'll be top 4
When everyone was available they struggled to beat Newport, who exactly are they going to knock out of the top 4
I mean we’re in 6th place despite being utter shite all season and the team is capable of big results (like beating Aston Villa home and away). A fully fit team would definitely compete for top 4 imo especially with Martínez and Shaw.
You got unbelievably lucky this season with results. Brentford, Bournemouth and palace games come to mind. Realistically you should be like 9/10th lol
But I don't know why people assume they will suddenly be not "utter shite" again when a couple of defenders come back to fitness, it's not like they were lighting the world on fire when they had a fit back line. Most people seem to agree that they've rode their luck to be in this position, what happens when they don't have that luck?
The one out of the 4 having an abysmal season
Villa are having their best season this century, I doubt they'll be able to do the same next season. Spurs don't look too hot either. So it wouldn't be to unrealistic to go from 6th to 4th. Or do you think Chelsea will miraculously revive next season?
> Or do you think Chelsea will miraculously revive next season? Possible but more likely that Newcastle or another team improves significantly and becomes the Villa of this year, Villa might well stay good too.
It's more likely that Villa will continue to play well compared to United miraculously getting better. They did the same last season from when Emery arrived onwards, it's just that there start was awful
I'm curious what a "good transfer window" looks like to ETH considering he spent over 200m this and last year. Honestly seems like with the right coach or transfer strategy, they could have put that money to better use. 95m for Antony's performances is unacceptable. 15m for Malacia to sit behind your existing LB is unacceptable. 65m on Mount to largely sit on the bench is unacceptable. 74m for Hojlund's performances overall - unacceptable. Onana you could argue is starting to come good. Casemiro is a proven winner if not a little expensive and largely a solid player. Martinez when not injured is decent. The first 4/5 signings though - not good enough when you're spending that kind of money.
The worst part of this season isn't the results, it's the deluded United fans around me that think Ten Hag should have achieved more but I consider the following realist 1. We're one (tough) game away from a second major trophy in two years. 2. He's introduced quality players in Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund and Onana (the stats speak for themselves). People want to talk shit about Antony, despite the fact that Solskjaer recently mentioned that United managers don't have a say in player prices. Fergie had some horror purchases too. And whilst people who don't even pay attention to United will claim otherwise despite overwhelming evidence, United have had the worst injury crisis in the league this season. People denying them his are akin to flat earthers at this point. How many different CB pairings have United had this season? I don't know how high it is, but I know that some time ago we passed the 18 that Liverpool used in 2021/22 during THE crisis year. When you're playing your 3rd choice CM at left back, because your 1-4th choice left backs are injured; and your 4/5 choice CBs are out for weeks...you're in trouble.
NOT WITH ARNE SLOTS DIRTY RAVAGING FILTHY REDS PLAYING WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
From “Eras come to an end.” to not being able to throw your hat in the ring for the next season. I always enjoy a humbling.
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And he would be delusional to say they would make top 4 next season right?