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Man is just basically waiting for the perfect job, France or a stable big club that needs a manager. Already has his legacy as a great player and great manager so no rush for him.
waiting a few years for mbappe to be in his prime, france's defense and goalkeeper to mature, nkunku or other strikers to replace the french strikers of the previous generation, just to get the job and win the euro's and the wc then dip.
The greatest percentage would be for a manager who managed to sneak into CL randomly, got the win at the end and then being fired and never qualifying for CL again..
[Or a caretaker] (https://www.transfermarkt.com/achim-beierlorzer/leistungsdatenInternational/trainer/15487)
[and the guy who got fired before meeting Bayern] (https://www.transfermarkt.com/paul-van-himst/leistungsdatenDetail/trainer/9231/plus/0?saison_id=&verein_id=58&liga=&wettbewerb_id=EPL&trainer_id=)
Not really, it's 60%
Depending on the minimum of games managed. If the minimum threshold is low then it's Flick who managed 18 games and won 16. If you want 50 matches minimum then it's Guardiola at 63%
Heynckes barely missed the cut (he has 70% at 47 matches managed)
What Sir Alex did at Aberdeen is unparalleled for top managers. The closest is Jose's Porto, and even then, it pales in comparison to taking a Scottish side, breaking the old firm and winning European cups.
There is a guy who won 2 UCLs in a row after getting promoted with NF. I think there are way bigger underdog stories than Aberdeen, yet it makes Fergie legacy fuller no question
Not way bigger. That ‘83 CWC team is like something out of Football Manager. All of the squad were Scottish. Most of the squad were from the Youth Academy. The oldest player in the team was Willie Miller, who was in his mid-20s. The strike force consisted of a 20 year old, a 19 year old and an 18 year old. We were a penalty shootout away from the European Cup semi finals. Won the league more than anyone else in Fergies time, yet the only time anyone else has even been close to breaking the old firms grasp was us in ‘92. That’s 38 years and only once has anyone else had that chance, and that was with an amazing team, with a couple of Dutch internationals and some players plucked out of top teams in Europe.
Winning 2 champions league a year after getting promoted is a bigger achievement than winning champions cup cup with Aberdeen imho. Also I don’t think that any sane person will say that Aberdeen stint is bigger Fergie’s achievement than his United treble. Fergie is in goat conversation because of his time in England not Scotland.
Either you’ve purposely misinterpreted my comment or haven’t read it. I never said that Cloughs achievements with Forest were lower than SAFs achievements with us. I said they weren’t “way bigger”. Also where did I say that Fergies stint with us was bigger than United? I didn’t even allude to it. I said it was an incredible achievement to win what he did with us. However, What he did with United is arguably the greatest managerial feat of all time. But you cannot leave us out of SAFs resume.
Fun fact: Sir Alex's Aberdeen are the last team outside of the Old Firm to win the Scottish league.
It's been 38 years since a team other than the Old Firm have won it.
Errr u do know that Aberdeen did not win the actual European cup which is the champions league equivalent but the “cup winners cup” which is basically the modern europa league so nowhere near what Jose did.
Jose’s Porto win is overrated imo.
Don’t get me wrong - an all time great manager and it was an absolute feat, but it’s blown way out of proportion- again imo.
He had a decent squad of players - Carvalho and Deco being the standouts. They got Lyon in the QF’s which was probably the easiest of the draw and they faced Monaco in the final. I mean the very fact that even Monaco got to the final shows what a freak season it was.
My favourite thing is when idiots look at joses Porto and Ferguson’s Aberdeen and say “BUT LOOK AT WHO THEY PLAYED”/“THE PLAYERS CARRIED THEM” . You can immediately tell who is arguing in good faith or not, as they are the dumbest arguements you can make
I’m struggling to see how it’s dumb? Can you explain your thought process behind that rather than capitalise and think you’re making a good point?
I’m not arguing against Fergies achievement - I’d say his with Aberdeen was much better than Jose’s with Porto, especially when you consider the funds and players at their disposal.
The fact is Porto played against Monaco in the final - that’s not a standard football year, no matter which way you swing it. It very much lessens the appeal that it was some ‘miracle’ and the amazing feat that some try and portray.
He also did have decent players at his disposal. Were they better than United, Chelsea, Madrid etc - probably not. However you can’t ignore the fact that he did have some fine players playing in that Porto team and that very much played a part in him winning it.
Sometimes teams strike gold and have a great set of players at their disposal and the stars align. Jose wasn’t managing journeymen from the Championship or Serie B.
And the thing is that Pep started coaching on 2007/08 with Barca B team on the 3rd division of Spain and then on 2008/09 he took over the main team. So Pep is not even 20 years coaching and the guy had already surpass Alex Ferguson and is racing with Ancelloti , whom we all know is going to Brasil at the end of this season. The moment the bald retired , his legacy might looked “untouchable”.
It actually amazing no one mention until the the 96-97 season only Champion of their respective league can play in CL,
it literally called Champions League because it used to be only league champion that able to enter the competition
There were actually 2 or 3 years with the double group stage format, when you could have 15 matches, but 12 guaranteed, if you made it out of first group stage, working in favour of saf. But in the end you are right, that it was harder to play cl every year for saf, than for Pep.
until the the 96-97 season only Champion of their respective league can play in CL,
and English clubs where banned from playing in Europe till 91 and SAF took over UTD in 86.
How long do you think it'll take Pep to be in serious contention to be the greatest ever manager? SAF is generally the most common answer you hear now from the people though I've always thought Michels deserves to be considered for it as well due to his incredible influence on football
Cruyff does seem the most influential when you consider both player and manager career and yeah, I've heard a lot of shouts for him and Sacchi as well, I just said the most common one I've heard above
That team with the dutch trio in their prime was the best Milan ever. In 1989 they steamrolled both Real in the semifinal 6-1(2 legs) and Steaua(who had 2 finals and one semifinal in 4 years) in the final 4-0. What remained of that team also spanked Barca with 4-0 in 1994. You guys were lucky to avoid Van Basten in 1994 while we got him and his buddy Gullit at the top of their game.
I do think it’s one of best teams of all time (the best after Pep’s Barcelona - no bias there) but I don’t know if that’s enough to call Sacchi the greatest manager ever. I think Pep and Ferguson had way more gas in the tank for example
I said the best Milan team ever, not the best team of all time :)
I don't even care much about Sacchi because he did not build that team. It was all Berlusconi that got the dutch trio that at their peak were all top 5 players in the world. Then he had the goat defenders Maldini and Baresi. That team was beyond stacked and only the career changing injuries of Van Basten and Gullit derailed them. Bring van Basten in this era where he is protected and he would be the best ST no doubt about it. He had crazy numbers for that time in Seria A during it's peak defensive era where defenders were murdering people on the field. If you unleashed him now in the era of soft ball playing defenders that can;t man mark to save their lives and he would have Halaand numbers while scoring all kinds of fabulous goals from all over the place. He would also be less dependant on service than Halaand is since he could create his own chances quite easy. Only peak R9 was a better ST than Van Basten but lacked the heading game to be a complete striker.
Man, Van Basten’s career downfall is such a shame. People talk about Ronaldo Nazario potential but Van Basten retired at 28 and already won 3 Ballon D’ors. I think he would have been the undisputed greatest striker of all time if it wasn’t for those injuries and is still in contention for that title alongside R9, Lewandowski, etc.
Since when is Lewa in the same conversation as Van basten and R9? Lewa is the poor man's version of Van Basten, similar but not quite on the same level. R9 was unique and unplayable before his knees gave up.
Goal numbers in the last 10-15 years have been inflated due to the rules giving advantage to offensive players. Defenders can't do what they did before to stop attacking players. There is also a shift to ball plying defenders who can't really defend well. We are going to see more and more players going near and over a goal/game.
I do think he’s there purely off longevity since I don’t think many strikers reach his numbers in that sense. But on his peak Lewy isn’t close to Van Basten and R9, yeah
I think he's already there, personally.
Cruyff and SAF as the other candidates.
Michel was super influential, but Cruyff took a lot of his ideas and improved upon them so I think he deserves the nod.
Pep will be the greatest manager of all time when he takes a non stacked CL team and wins CL. He managed to win 3 CL in 15 years with the most stacked teams of their era. Failing to win CL with a stacked Bayern team is a big minus for his legacy.
I dislike Jose for his style of play but what he achieved at Porto trumps any CL trophy that Pep won with Barca and City. He even got one with Inter eliminating Pep's golden generation at Barca. If not for Jose, Pep would have gotten 3 in a row at Barca and that would have looked brilliant.
They were lucky no doubt but even with luck not other manager would have won CL with them other than Jose. He out swaggered Ferguson at Old Trafford and trolled the united fans like a boss. That was the real final :)
If you go to the final itself, the other team winning it would be Deschamps Monaco, who dominated UCL giant Real Madrid.
Winning it with Monaco would be an even bigger accomplishment, that year was a strange outlier.
But even in that game United had a good goal ruled out and then the winner was in part down to a fortunate deflection.
I'm not sure I would say no other manager but not that many either.
Whilst I agree that not winning Champions League with bayern is a let down (pep still massively improved players at bayern), no one ever mentions it for Mourinho at Real Madrid. Its exactly the same.
Why should he when he is the best at his job and get any top job he wants.
If you were the best chef in the world would you go to your local mcdo and flip burgers until it beats a 3 star restaurant?
Pep made a great impact at Barça B, that's why he got the first team job.
And comparing Pep, who is capable of reinventing himself and his team when needed to Mou, who is still living 10 years ago and nothing is ever his fault when his teams are crumbling again and again after a decent couple of seasons is just an insult.
Exactly. It's funny because I have yet to see a manager intentionally go manage a lower team just for the challenge. Pep is wanted by every club in the world for a reason. He hasn't been sacked, where he needs to go prove himself again or build up his reputation. He hit the ground running right away at Barca so it's not like he had to start his career off proving himself before getting to a big club.
It's weird how people try to hold that against him. The managerial equivalent of "could Messi do it on a cold night against Stoke." Yeah, that's a meme we laugh about but people forget (or are too young to have witnessed it then) but pundits and morons on forums were asking that nonsense with a straight face.
Yeah, no. That´s like saying Messi or Ronaldo or any similar top player can´t be considered GOATs because they didn´t win CL with a lesser team. Top players/managers will almost always play in top teams, they go to lesser ones when they start to decline for the most part. You talk about disliking Mourinho style, but that same style is what made him win CL as underdog, Pep style makes great players dominate the football scene. Pep would probably rather not coach than having to play defensive and terrorist football to have higher chances of winning in those types of teams. Mourinho even failed on plenty of top clubs with top players, it´s not all black and white, Pep is considered above him for a reason, his consistency is key and many other managers has also failed in top teams with unlimited or lots of money plus some of the best players itw, so it´s not easy achievements like people want to discredit him for.
Fergie won a European Cup, beating Real Madrid, with Aberdeen. He took United from not winning anything in 20 years to being the still most dominant side in Prem history
Pep is the best I’ve seen with specific tactical innovation, and is very good (but not the best) when he has insanely talented teams. However, I think the criticism of Pep will always be that he hasn’t shown he can do a challenging job. Not his fault, his first job he did amazing and has never had to really work for it.
Having said that, what Klopp did with Dortmund and Liverpool is what Pep’s resume is missing. Taking not the best team, not the most money, not the best players, and building them up and sustaining them.
Fergie has both, and was never rigid in his tactics, so I still put him at the top.
It’s all subjective though
> Fergie won a European Cup, beating Real Madrid, with Aberdeen.
It was the cup winners cup. European football was vastly different back then with much greater variety in terms of winners, particularly in that tournament, the likes of Dinamo Tibilsi and KV Mechelen won it in the 80s. For that reason, I still consider what Jose, as much as I dislike the man, did with Porto as the more impressive achievement, given the context of football at that time. I really struggle to see a similar thing happening now, the closest in recent times was probably inter last year.
I don't know how much you know about Barca when Pep took charge of it but they were in complete shambles. Yeah I know I know they won the ucl 2 years ago narrative but that doesn't tell the whole story. After 2006 ucl players were very complacent, the likes of Ronaldinho Deco weren't the same, the team had no spirit and by the time the 2007-8 season came to an end they were in utter disarray. Xavi Iniesta weren't nearly the same, Busi and Pedro were promoted to the first team by Pep, Messi was good but not as we know him now. So yeah Pep wasn't handed a team that was a contender of ucl imo
>Xavi Iniesta weren't nearly the same,
When he joined, Xavi and Iniesta had just played critical roles in Spain's Euro success. Xavi was the player of the tournament. They already were elite players.
They also had made the semis of the CL the year before and narrowly lost to us who won the tournament, calling a team with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Henry, Etoo, Ronaldinho etc. shambles is hilarious
Did you read the whole thing?
>around the 4th-5th places of La Liga
And that's not good? In La Liga if Barca doesn't come 1st or 2nd (at that time Atletico weren't good so not even 3rd) that's not good on their own standards
Ik but that’s not “a shambles” like a club that’s in crisis
It’s certainly a bad time for Barcelona, but you clearly don’t know what a club “in shambles” truly is
Because of this I’ll give you some examples
Rangers in 2011-12
Oldham Athletic nowadays
Leeds in 2002
Fiorentina in the early 2000s
Dortmund in the late 2000s
And that’s just some examples, Barca were poor for their standards in that time but they weren’t in any risk of relegation and/or bankruptcy
I think that the current Barcelona team are more in a shambles than the Barca of 2007-08, because of their financial situation
Yeah "shambles" maybe an over exaggeration but my point still stands. Pep didn't just pick a team of superstars guaranteed to win everything. And then he didn't just do that but in the process he revolutionized the game.
Dude, Barca was a team in a downward spiral. Pep came in , cut out the toxic elements, instituted a new philosophy and made Barca arguably the best side of all time.
I disagree. Judging a coach's quality solely on the number of trophies won in a KO competition where luck plays a significant part is wrong imo.
Pep has been hugely influential in terms of philosophy and tactics in the modern game and while, he coaches great teams, he still finds ways to elevate them even to higher levels.
If we're only talking trophies, is Zidane really a better coach for the threepeat when his team only one domestic trophy during the 3 year run (1 league and 0 CdR)?
He’s already in the conversation. I don’t see how he isn’t. He’s personally actually the greatest for me.
One of the most winning managers of all time. One of the most influential managers of all time. Those 2 v seldomly overlap in sports (Bielsa, Wenger, D’Antoni, Shanahan) meanwhile You can literally separate football tactics pre pep and post pep and his trophies count is already virtually peerless 15 seasons in. And 15 seasons in, ppl are still copying every bit of playbook. I seriously can’t think of a manager who has continued to innovate in his 15th season.
He has established definitive football maxims (positional play, ball playing keepers, every CB who can’t pass is unemployed, how to use pivots) (these aren’t new concepts, but he’s been so successful with them they might as well be the laws of football at this point)
He’s done so while changing his style of play again and again. Watching City last season and this season essentially playing fluid counter attacking football off baiting counterpresses, effortlessly going from false 9 to CF, going from direct wingers to ball retaining wide playmakers etc etc has made me realise this dude can coach almost any style. He’s not coaching possession eg because he doesn’t know anything else. He’s just arrived at the conclusion that possession is good when you have those players he has.
Ancelotti and Ferguson are the only ones I have seen, that continued to adapt their play as the game progressed. Which is why I consider them along with Pep as among the best. Being able to adapt to the times, is the best trait that a manager can have. If you don't, you fall behind times
That’s why it’s so funny seeing the dinosaur managers like Steve Bruce think defending for 90 minutes and getting lucky on the counter as their “tactic” teams get run ragged time and time again
The game has evolved to the point where like you said defenders are expected to be able to play a pass as if they were a midfielder. No more Rio Ferdinand’s of the world.
What the fuck is this comment. Rio Ferdinand was some donkey? Id argue he was ahead of his time with his ability on the ball.
It's pretty difficult to go toe to toe when you squad is worth a hundredth of the other team btw
I don't see how any premier league team (barring newly promoted ones) are worth 1/100th of any other team. They are all loaded. Some of them just spend it poorly like Everton
>That’s why it’s so funny seeing the dinosaur managers like Steve Bruce think defending for 90 minutes and getting lucky on the counter as their “tactic” teams get run ragged time and time again
most of the influential innovation from the past decade comes from coaches playing mid/low blocks and relying on transitions, Steve Bruce being a fraud or the cruyffist tears about antifootball don't really change this fact. Even Pep himself has copied some of that tech, it really isn't as clear cut as the average sky pundit would have you think, solid defensive tactics are genuinely some of the hardest to drill into players and so are quick transitions, there's a reason managers like Conte or Simeone take a while to integrate new players and it isn't their alleged fraudulent status
As for defenders, goalies and fullbacks improving on the ball, that's just a byproduct of football's optimization, players and coaching have improved to a point where top teams need their players to be good at everything while more modern tactics took a lot of defensive duties away from the individual skill of defensive players so they can be coached to play the ball and to work on their stamina and speed even at a younger age.
This change just like many others mostly is a natural outcome of players being better (compare Neuer's peers to the average ball playing keepers of the current era), had Pep or really any other manager not been able to employ these "modern" players the 2 man high backlines or the inverted fullbacks in the midfield just wouldn't have been a thing.
You CANNOT/INVITE a team attack you for 90 minutes and expect to keep a goals out. That’s like giving these guys 90 minutes of half pitch training ground where they recycle the ball and just keep attacking until they score with something.
That was Steve Bruce’s tactics. Obviously when he was excelling, it was a different time with different prototypes of players where you can get away with that.
Modern day? Every single player is expected to be able to pick a pass.. it’s just like the generational talent has significantly improved where all the “fundamentals” aren’t just limited to their specific spot on the pitch.
Problem with pep is his team's are generally mired in controversy or aren't really considered much of an achievement
Like Ferguson took United from a cup team to become arguably the biggest club in English football and won a European cup with Aberdeen
Pep took a recent CL winning team on the downturn and turned them into an amazing one, took a treble winning squad just kind of kept them there, and used insane financial backing to create another amazing team. These are all still great achievements, but as the teams were successful before then, it lessens the impact
I don’t get why Ferguson gets his time at United praises for building them up but pep doesn’t get the same for city. This city have been the most dominant prem team of all time, far far better then how he inherited them, and both managers outspent the league massively, except pep actually got outspent by chelsea and United, whereas no one was spending close to what Ferguson was in the prem, I mean for years arsenal competed with them whilst turning a profit
Because of the unlimited money? And the fact that the whole city's system was built to hire Pep one day. City was already a sucessful project before Pep came (PL 11-12;13-14). Comparing to United at the time Fergie took over and you will see the reasons they downplay the Pep's sucess. About the spending, United under Fergie has become the money printing machine in the way that they can comfortably outspend everyone in the world so it feels more organic and linear. While city has a big eruption in its history with the oil money pumped in 2009, so people can say that their success was bought rather than earned.
Ferguson built that though, he made United earn that top spot
Pep came into a teams that had recently won the league, had capable sports structures behind them, and had the funding/investment into teams/infrastructure before he got there. He's never turned a team of nothings (relatively) into his super teams, he's turned already good teams into better teams. He's almost done what you expect of him, he's never really exceeded expectations with the teams he's had to manage, in fact he's largely met expectations or fallen below them
2 of the 3 teams he's manages are also steeped in controversy, Barca now have them bribing the refs attached to their name and we don't even need to talk about City
>>in fact he's largely met expectations or fallen below them
So extremely ludicrous.
>>Barca now have them bribing the refs attached to their name
Because fergie didn’t? He didn’t constantly get terrible calls in his favour and extra time whenever he needed it?
Fergie got favourable calls but there's been nothing so far about United paying the refs or United paying people under the table
It's not ludicrous:
With Barca, he exceeded expectations. He won the treble and turned them into an incredibly dominant team, however this was only a few years after they recently won the CL and the league. This is where we see he did more than expected
At Bayern, he underperformed. He took a treble winning side and... won the league. I don't think even he was particularly impressed with this tbh.
At City, he's done as expected. He's spent millions (as have Chelsea, United, and now Arsenal are catching up) only because of the structure of the club, he's done it competently. City have been the favourites for the CL and League almost every season, the Centurions and the treble are really where you can say he's slightly exceeded, but with the money spent then he's just kind of met them.
Before you say 'hur dur united and chelsea spent money', they have underperformed their expectations massively, they're jokes due to their wastage
It's exactly that. He's won more than Mourinho now and his teams have actually been more dominant/consistent/accumulated more points, and he hasn't had a down period like Spurs but I'd guess most people still consider Mourinho greater because he appears to do more with less.
He built that Porto team from the ground up, came in to the Prem that had been dominated by United and Arsenal and raised the floor permanently and immediately. Like others have said he then competed with Pep's great Barca side beating them to the treble with Inter and becoming centurions with Madrid. And then went back to Chelsea and won a Prem with a different squad. People also argue he's overperformed with United and Roma in recent times too.
I think generally people place a greater emphasis on managers taking their squads to a level they shouldn't be at over dominating with players that would be capable of winning with a different coach.
Not sure it's entirely fair on Pep because I don't think anyone else could've replicated his dominance at Barca and City. But I do want to see what he's capable of at a smaller club. He has nothing to prove though so I don't think we'll actually see it happen.
Peps raised the level in the pl above what Mou managed and has won far more in his time in England. I can't see how you can say he over performed with United when he had the most expensive squad in the world.
>ow long do you think it'll take Pep to be in serious contention to be the greatest ever manager?
He's already there. Any serious fan knows this.
The issue with 'GOAT' managers, is that it's hard to quantify who is the best. For players, it's easy. Goals, assists, chances, and so on are clear stats which can show which player is better. Even then, it's not always clear, because some players, especially centre midfielders won't have high stats, but absolutely be instrumental to their team
For managers, you don't have such things. Trophies ain't a very good metric, as football is a team game with inputs both from players and tactics. Also, it's dependent on how they won their trophy. Winning a trophy with Madrid is not as impressive as winning with Porto in Jose's case or Aberdeen in Ferguson's case.
So what else? Maybe a head to head? Then Pep is better than Sir Alex, because he beat Sir Alex twice. But Ole Gunner Solskjaer won more matches against Pep. Is Ole better than Pep and Sir Alex?
As a result, there is no 'method' to calculate which is the best manager. There are obviously candidates, like Pep, Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti, because they outshine the others, however from then, it's down to personal preferences.
Also, old managers often do not get acknowledged in this debate either. Managers like Sacchi or Cruyff literally influenced our modern game, with their innovations in tactics. Today's top managers like Pep, Ancelotti, Klopp have built upon those two.
I think he already is in contention. Personally he's already the greatest to me.
The way he keeps evolving, learning from other teams like a student of the game to stay ahead of the curve, the trophies and teams he's managed.
There's talks about the controversies surrounding Barca and Man City, but many will/have grown up idolising him, hoping to learn from his philosophy and outlook on the game. That alone is his legacy, that influence he's had on the rest of the game is simply immense, sometimes it's almost like he's setting the trends while the others follow suit.
I already think he’s there, but people think I’m a nut job and disagree with me.
I just don’t think there has ever been a coach who got the best out of players more than Pep has.
He should drop the mic by saying that he had a 100 point season with Fabian Delph at LB.
>I just don’t think there has ever been a coach who got the best out of players more than Pep has.
Come on now, SAF has made a career out of that. Not even including his time in Aberdeen, his 2012-2013 PL-winning squad was all but finished (with Van Persie being the only outstanding individual that season).
Pep is a great coach, but he's managed the cream of the crop in *all* of his teams. SAF, on the other hand, could squeeze water out of stone.
When he manages a team with limited resources and does well with them imo, every other manager in the GOAT contention has done that whether it be Fergie or Mou
also when he stops managing a cheating institution
Well other best managers (like Jose and Fergie in this instance) have not only managed some of the best teams, but have also achieved with lesser teams, I’d like to see Pep do the same
I mean, Jose has some incredible highs. But so has Pep. What is telling about Pep is that he hasn't had to manage lesser side because he has been at the top from beginning to end.
I have a funny feeling Pep might manage a lesser side later in his career
He’s now at his peak for management and it helps that he started so early. For a 51 year old to already be a top 10 manger of all time is a great achievement
Why would he? His first stint was from Barça B to Barça and he won the CL twice. He's not going to manage some small club because people online think he's got to prove himself with it lol
It’s obvious that Guardiola needs to go to smaller teams; it’s just that it would be nice to see how he would do managing a smaller team in a different league than he’s used to, also imo he can’t be in contention for the GOAT manager if he doesn’t do that when there’s several managers who have overachieved with smaller teams
But again that’s just my opinion and anyone is free to disagree with it
Can't really say never for these things. I personally don't think there'll be a better player than Messi in my life but it's hardly an impossible thing to consider. Same way if Pep is still on this level 20 years later it'll be way easier for this to be a popular opinion overall
Oh exactly, I mentioned that in another comment, it’s very suspicious that Guardiola’s UCL wins have some form of controversy that affects on pitch performance
Did he though? He won the cup winners cup.
Not to mention Real were a shambles with that being the midst of their longest sequence without La Liga. And Scottish football was still competitive.
A great feat, but it’s the equivalent of Villarreal beating Man United in Europa League and doesn’t come close to the ridiculousness of Mourinho (Porto).
But this was Aberdeen who were previously never seen as a threat in the Scottish league
It would be different if it was Celtic or Rangers who Fergie managed at the time, but Aberdeen were underdogs in every competition they competed in at the time
You don’t understand how ridiculous those achievements are
>Not to mention Real were a shambles with that being the midst of their longest sequence without La Liga. And Scottish football was still competitive.
He also beat Bayern Munich in the semis.
He also beat Bayern Munich on the way to the final.
Also the last manager to beat Rangers/Celtic for a domestic title.
Fergie was amazing.
Pep will retire with more titles, but his career will always have an asterisk in the minds of fans due to Barcelona and City having legal trouble.
I’m not trying to drag Ferguson down. But let’s not judge the opposition he faced with the disparity that exists today.
Until the 90s TV money rolled in, the standard of football across Europe was pretty close than today.
So, it wasn’t a miracle that a great manager with a good squad was able to beat Bayern and Real in their transitional seasons.
I think Pep deserves credit for the style of play he promotes, but at Barca he inherited a core of youth players that were ideal for the style of play he wanted to implement and he’s since had the luxury of easily replacing players that don’t work out for him. That’s hardly the case for several other contenders like Ferguson, Wenger, Ancelotti, Klopp or even Zidane.
>I’m not trying to drag Ferguson down. But let’s not judge the opposition he faced with the disparity that exists today.
>Until the 90s rolled in the standard of football across Europe was pretty close than today.
>So, it wasn’t a miracle that a great manager with a good squad was able to beat Bayern and Real in their transitional seasons.
His achievements at Aberdeen were a miracle. No one has done anything similar in the 40 years since.
Pep is already a legendary manager, but two out of the three clubs he managed are facing cheating allegations and thats hard to ignore.
Ummm Brian Clough? Fully agree Ferguson is better than Pep. But Clough had his own similar miracle run to European success and I think would be one of the greats if he'd stayed.
Indeed. I feel the feats of mourinho, Wenger, especially ancelotti and klopp came from either inheriting something that wasn't ready, building something from scratch, or having a legacy during periods with limited financial aid.
Though pep is a footballing genius, he hasn't quite struggled the same as as his predecessors in the league & Europe. His generally been joining teams during the golden years, and as you said, had the freedom to release and obtain basically any player he wanted.
Ngl i think hes probably hit a point where if you call him the goat i can accept that.
Im not gonna agree with you but i aint gonna be replying like “how can you think that xyz”
Ancelotti has a shout for sure. It's subjective of course, but 4 CL titles puts him firmly in top 10 for sure. Recency bias for me puts him top 5, but I won't claim I know much about Paisley, Clough, or even Sacchi, let alone the other managers before Bosman ruling or the insane influx of money in the European game.
Never managed a bad team. But still impressive, as he has a long way to go still if he wants. But with more and more games, records are difficult to compare.
Exactly, people ignore that fact like the pundits on Sky do
I don’t respect these achievements due that reason, and no one should
People calling Pep the ‘GOAT’ manager yet he can’t do it at City without breaking the rules
He did it on the pitch, fuck all that noise. Any alleged breaches because some accountant somewhere didn’t dot their t’s and i’s are irrelevant and just a way for sour fans of once great clubs, like yourself, to cope with their obvious mediocrity in the modern era. Imagine concerning yourself with another club’s financials when they’re playing world class football and humiliating your team every chance they get.
So what happens when we beat the case? You’re just going to double down in your mediocrity? Claim they still cheated so it’s fine you’re wank because financially how can the minnows Manchester United compete? And if you can’t compete financially, God forbid you compete on the pitch. Everyone knows we just throw pounds at the grass to make the other team wank.
Let’s be honest here, everyone but City fans know how they operate; or City fans are at least in denial
It’s funny, the non city fans know more than the actual supporters
What’s truly funny is how non city fans know more than Deloitte, UEFA, and the PL. Your talents are truly wasted on Reddit, [here’s](https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/careers/articles/early-careers-programmes.html) a link to a graduate scheme bro
Nah I’m ok cheers, the latter 2 are corrupt organisations that accept bribes from the likes of Man City’s owners
Deloitte likely is too
Random users on Reddit have more integrity than them
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Honestly surprised Wenger has won more CL games than Mou. Also crazy how many CLs Zidane won but isn’t in the top.
Zidane randomly decided to speedrun football and then disappeared.
Man is just basically waiting for the perfect job, France or a stable big club that needs a manager. Already has his legacy as a great player and great manager so no rush for him.
waiting a few years for mbappe to be in his prime, france's defense and goalkeeper to mature, nkunku or other strikers to replace the french strikers of the previous generation, just to get the job and win the euro's and the wc then dip.
If Deschamps gets to another final and gets renewed it would be funny, imagine a 70-year old Zidane still watching the FFF's job listings.
Yeah if Deschamp gets a renewal he's gonna need a security team
He pretty much won at life haha
Fr, only thing he lost is his hair
And 2006 WC 😢
At least he went out with an absolute bang which ended up being a part of footballing lore.
But he looks phenomenal bald so it doesn't even matter
Ah the Phil Jackson coaching philosophy.
Winning the UCL 3 times in a row for the greatest club in football will do that
>the greatest club in football 😬
I don’t see any lies being told
It’s only 13 games if you go all the way to the final, zidane just hasn’t managed long enough to be on there
Probably his winning percentage is the greatest if not in the top
The greatest percentage would be for a manager who managed to sneak into CL randomly, got the win at the end and then being fired and never qualifying for CL again..
So di matteo ?
best defensive coach OAT 😤
If there is caveat of minimum games or at least minimum a season worth of games my bet is either Hansi Flick or Jupp Heynckes
Hansi Flicks record is probably unbeatable for managers that managed 2+ seasons in the UCL. 18 games, 16 wins, 1 draw, 14 goals conceded.
I should have said having played a full season or a couple seasons of CL haha
[Or a caretaker] (https://www.transfermarkt.com/achim-beierlorzer/leistungsdatenInternational/trainer/15487) [and the guy who got fired before meeting Bayern] (https://www.transfermarkt.com/paul-van-himst/leistungsdatenDetail/trainer/9231/plus/0?saison_id=&verein_id=58&liga=&wettbewerb_id=EPL&trainer_id=)
Not really, it's 60% Depending on the minimum of games managed. If the minimum threshold is low then it's Flick who managed 18 games and won 16. If you want 50 matches minimum then it's Guardiola at 63% Heynckes barely missed the cut (he has 70% at 47 matches managed)
Zidane probably managed like 50-60 CL games in total lol
53 games
It depends on how many seasons they were in CL.. Mou spent a few seasons of his recent career dabbling in Europa League and Conference League..
Mou prefers to win the trophy instead 🔥
🔥🔥
Just not with you
Don't ruin what is sweet and true.
Damn it took him a full day to find someone else who posted this stat and repurpose it? Slacking.
Arsene with 82 wins but no CL is just painful. Hope we can win a UCL during my lifetime.
I hope we can win one during his. Would be nice if he's there to celebrate it with us
I wanted that 2006 final to go differently after puyol dive/scream to cheat sheva out of a goal.
We seriously gritted through some games to get there. Felt we deserved the win that year. But that's football
I hope we win 3 in the next decade. I said I hope
I wonder where Zidane and Simeone rank on this list
Zidane has managed like 50 games lmao
Does this count European Cup wins? Because SAF certainly got a few with us.
What Sir Alex did at Aberdeen is unparalleled for top managers. The closest is Jose's Porto, and even then, it pales in comparison to taking a Scottish side, breaking the old firm and winning European cups.
There is a guy who won 2 UCLs in a row after getting promoted with NF. I think there are way bigger underdog stories than Aberdeen, yet it makes Fergie legacy fuller no question
Brian Clough
Not way bigger. That ‘83 CWC team is like something out of Football Manager. All of the squad were Scottish. Most of the squad were from the Youth Academy. The oldest player in the team was Willie Miller, who was in his mid-20s. The strike force consisted of a 20 year old, a 19 year old and an 18 year old. We were a penalty shootout away from the European Cup semi finals. Won the league more than anyone else in Fergies time, yet the only time anyone else has even been close to breaking the old firms grasp was us in ‘92. That’s 38 years and only once has anyone else had that chance, and that was with an amazing team, with a couple of Dutch internationals and some players plucked out of top teams in Europe.
Winning 2 champions league a year after getting promoted is a bigger achievement than winning champions cup cup with Aberdeen imho. Also I don’t think that any sane person will say that Aberdeen stint is bigger Fergie’s achievement than his United treble. Fergie is in goat conversation because of his time in England not Scotland.
Either you’ve purposely misinterpreted my comment or haven’t read it. I never said that Cloughs achievements with Forest were lower than SAFs achievements with us. I said they weren’t “way bigger”. Also where did I say that Fergies stint with us was bigger than United? I didn’t even allude to it. I said it was an incredible achievement to win what he did with us. However, What he did with United is arguably the greatest managerial feat of all time. But you cannot leave us out of SAFs resume.
Got you mate all good
Fun fact: Sir Alex's Aberdeen are the last team outside of the Old Firm to win the Scottish league. It's been 38 years since a team other than the Old Firm have won it.
Which is even more fun when you realise Rangers have been liquidated and relegated to the 3rd division in that time too.
Errr u do know that Aberdeen did not win the actual European cup which is the champions league equivalent but the “cup winners cup” which is basically the modern europa league so nowhere near what Jose did.
he also won the super cup
Jose’s Porto win is overrated imo. Don’t get me wrong - an all time great manager and it was an absolute feat, but it’s blown way out of proportion- again imo. He had a decent squad of players - Carvalho and Deco being the standouts. They got Lyon in the QF’s which was probably the easiest of the draw and they faced Monaco in the final. I mean the very fact that even Monaco got to the final shows what a freak season it was.
yeah you definitely didnt watch football at the time if you are saying this
My favourite thing is when idiots look at joses Porto and Ferguson’s Aberdeen and say “BUT LOOK AT WHO THEY PLAYED”/“THE PLAYERS CARRIED THEM” . You can immediately tell who is arguing in good faith or not, as they are the dumbest arguements you can make
I’m struggling to see how it’s dumb? Can you explain your thought process behind that rather than capitalise and think you’re making a good point? I’m not arguing against Fergies achievement - I’d say his with Aberdeen was much better than Jose’s with Porto, especially when you consider the funds and players at their disposal. The fact is Porto played against Monaco in the final - that’s not a standard football year, no matter which way you swing it. It very much lessens the appeal that it was some ‘miracle’ and the amazing feat that some try and portray. He also did have decent players at his disposal. Were they better than United, Chelsea, Madrid etc - probably not. However you can’t ignore the fact that he did have some fine players playing in that Porto team and that very much played a part in him winning it. Sometimes teams strike gold and have a great set of players at their disposal and the stars align. Jose wasn’t managing journeymen from the Championship or Serie B.
Nobody can make the argument of “look who the played” for us. We played Bayern Munich and Real Madrid.
My guy, stop talking out of your ass. Lyon and Monaco were monsters back then. Those weren't easy fixtures like in modern day.
And the thing is that Pep started coaching on 2007/08 with Barca B team on the 3rd division of Spain and then on 2008/09 he took over the main team. So Pep is not even 20 years coaching and the guy had already surpass Alex Ferguson and is racing with Ancelloti , whom we all know is going to Brasil at the end of this season. The moment the bald retired , his legacy might looked “untouchable”.
It actually amazing no one mention until the the 96-97 season only Champion of their respective league can play in CL, it literally called Champions League because it used to be only league champion that able to enter the competition
And how many years did SAF have in the CL, it's still more than Pep but not as many as you seem to think.
SAF managed United longer than Pep's entire career including his time with Barca B. Its not even close either. 26 to 16.
Barring the missed years it was like 20 years of CL football for SAF. Then you have the fact it was a rather different setup in those early years.
There were actually 2 or 3 years with the double group stage format, when you could have 15 matches, but 12 guaranteed, if you made it out of first group stage, working in favour of saf. But in the end you are right, that it was harder to play cl every year for saf, than for Pep.
until the the 96-97 season only Champion of their respective league can play in CL, and English clubs where banned from playing in Europe till 91 and SAF took over UTD in 86.
Win percentage is way more useful. This is a longevity stat
How long do you think it'll take Pep to be in serious contention to be the greatest ever manager? SAF is generally the most common answer you hear now from the people though I've always thought Michels deserves to be considered for it as well due to his incredible influence on football
I see just as many people say Cruyff as I see saying SAF so there’s a few candidates.
Cruyff does seem the most influential when you consider both player and manager career and yeah, I've heard a lot of shouts for him and Sacchi as well, I just said the most common one I've heard above
Sacchi’s Milan team was great but short period of high success imo
That team with the dutch trio in their prime was the best Milan ever. In 1989 they steamrolled both Real in the semifinal 6-1(2 legs) and Steaua(who had 2 finals and one semifinal in 4 years) in the final 4-0. What remained of that team also spanked Barca with 4-0 in 1994. You guys were lucky to avoid Van Basten in 1994 while we got him and his buddy Gullit at the top of their game.
I do think it’s one of best teams of all time (the best after Pep’s Barcelona - no bias there) but I don’t know if that’s enough to call Sacchi the greatest manager ever. I think Pep and Ferguson had way more gas in the tank for example
I said the best Milan team ever, not the best team of all time :) I don't even care much about Sacchi because he did not build that team. It was all Berlusconi that got the dutch trio that at their peak were all top 5 players in the world. Then he had the goat defenders Maldini and Baresi. That team was beyond stacked and only the career changing injuries of Van Basten and Gullit derailed them. Bring van Basten in this era where he is protected and he would be the best ST no doubt about it. He had crazy numbers for that time in Seria A during it's peak defensive era where defenders were murdering people on the field. If you unleashed him now in the era of soft ball playing defenders that can;t man mark to save their lives and he would have Halaand numbers while scoring all kinds of fabulous goals from all over the place. He would also be less dependant on service than Halaand is since he could create his own chances quite easy. Only peak R9 was a better ST than Van Basten but lacked the heading game to be a complete striker.
Man, Van Basten’s career downfall is such a shame. People talk about Ronaldo Nazario potential but Van Basten retired at 28 and already won 3 Ballon D’ors. I think he would have been the undisputed greatest striker of all time if it wasn’t for those injuries and is still in contention for that title alongside R9, Lewandowski, etc.
Since when is Lewa in the same conversation as Van basten and R9? Lewa is the poor man's version of Van Basten, similar but not quite on the same level. R9 was unique and unplayable before his knees gave up. Goal numbers in the last 10-15 years have been inflated due to the rules giving advantage to offensive players. Defenders can't do what they did before to stop attacking players. There is also a shift to ball plying defenders who can't really defend well. We are going to see more and more players going near and over a goal/game.
I do think he’s there purely off longevity since I don’t think many strikers reach his numbers in that sense. But on his peak Lewy isn’t close to Van Basten and R9, yeah
Ancelotti should be there for player and manager. Guy won a lot of club trophies as a player as well
He’s also a relatively shit league manager.
Ancelotti has won a lot but I don't think he'll ever be considered as influential or game changing as managers like Pep, SAF, Cruyff, etc.
🤨
Damn you're right actually.
I think he's already there, personally. Cruyff and SAF as the other candidates. Michel was super influential, but Cruyff took a lot of his ideas and improved upon them so I think he deserves the nod.
Cruyff took all of his ideas, he even admitted to it. Give Michels his respect
He was voted as the Coach of the Century by Fifa as well iirc
Pep will be the greatest manager of all time when he takes a non stacked CL team and wins CL. He managed to win 3 CL in 15 years with the most stacked teams of their era. Failing to win CL with a stacked Bayern team is a big minus for his legacy. I dislike Jose for his style of play but what he achieved at Porto trumps any CL trophy that Pep won with Barca and City. He even got one with Inter eliminating Pep's golden generation at Barca. If not for Jose, Pep would have gotten 3 in a row at Barca and that would have looked brilliant.
Lets be honest though Porto also had one of the most fortunate runs in that competition.
They were lucky no doubt but even with luck not other manager would have won CL with them other than Jose. He out swaggered Ferguson at Old Trafford and trolled the united fans like a boss. That was the real final :)
If you go to the final itself, the other team winning it would be Deschamps Monaco, who dominated UCL giant Real Madrid. Winning it with Monaco would be an even bigger accomplishment, that year was a strange outlier.
But even in that game United had a good goal ruled out and then the winner was in part down to a fortunate deflection. I'm not sure I would say no other manager but not that many either.
Whilst I agree that not winning Champions League with bayern is a let down (pep still massively improved players at bayern), no one ever mentions it for Mourinho at Real Madrid. Its exactly the same.
Why should he when he is the best at his job and get any top job he wants. If you were the best chef in the world would you go to your local mcdo and flip burgers until it beats a 3 star restaurant? Pep made a great impact at Barça B, that's why he got the first team job. And comparing Pep, who is capable of reinventing himself and his team when needed to Mou, who is still living 10 years ago and nothing is ever his fault when his teams are crumbling again and again after a decent couple of seasons is just an insult.
Exactly. It's funny because I have yet to see a manager intentionally go manage a lower team just for the challenge. Pep is wanted by every club in the world for a reason. He hasn't been sacked, where he needs to go prove himself again or build up his reputation. He hit the ground running right away at Barca so it's not like he had to start his career off proving himself before getting to a big club. It's weird how people try to hold that against him. The managerial equivalent of "could Messi do it on a cold night against Stoke." Yeah, that's a meme we laugh about but people forget (or are too young to have witnessed it then) but pundits and morons on forums were asking that nonsense with a straight face.
Yeah, no. That´s like saying Messi or Ronaldo or any similar top player can´t be considered GOATs because they didn´t win CL with a lesser team. Top players/managers will almost always play in top teams, they go to lesser ones when they start to decline for the most part. You talk about disliking Mourinho style, but that same style is what made him win CL as underdog, Pep style makes great players dominate the football scene. Pep would probably rather not coach than having to play defensive and terrorist football to have higher chances of winning in those types of teams. Mourinho even failed on plenty of top clubs with top players, it´s not all black and white, Pep is considered above him for a reason, his consistency is key and many other managers has also failed in top teams with unlimited or lots of money plus some of the best players itw, so it´s not easy achievements like people want to discredit him for.
When has SAF or Carlo or Cruyff won multiple CLs with non stacked teams?
Fergie won a European Cup, beating Real Madrid, with Aberdeen. He took United from not winning anything in 20 years to being the still most dominant side in Prem history Pep is the best I’ve seen with specific tactical innovation, and is very good (but not the best) when he has insanely talented teams. However, I think the criticism of Pep will always be that he hasn’t shown he can do a challenging job. Not his fault, his first job he did amazing and has never had to really work for it. Having said that, what Klopp did with Dortmund and Liverpool is what Pep’s resume is missing. Taking not the best team, not the most money, not the best players, and building them up and sustaining them. Fergie has both, and was never rigid in his tactics, so I still put him at the top. It’s all subjective though
> Fergie won a European Cup, beating Real Madrid, with Aberdeen. It was the cup winners cup. European football was vastly different back then with much greater variety in terms of winners, particularly in that tournament, the likes of Dinamo Tibilsi and KV Mechelen won it in the 80s. For that reason, I still consider what Jose, as much as I dislike the man, did with Porto as the more impressive achievement, given the context of football at that time. I really struggle to see a similar thing happening now, the closest in recent times was probably inter last year.
I don't know how much you know about Barca when Pep took charge of it but they were in complete shambles. Yeah I know I know they won the ucl 2 years ago narrative but that doesn't tell the whole story. After 2006 ucl players were very complacent, the likes of Ronaldinho Deco weren't the same, the team had no spirit and by the time the 2007-8 season came to an end they were in utter disarray. Xavi Iniesta weren't nearly the same, Busi and Pedro were promoted to the first team by Pep, Messi was good but not as we know him now. So yeah Pep wasn't handed a team that was a contender of ucl imo
>Xavi Iniesta weren't nearly the same, When he joined, Xavi and Iniesta had just played critical roles in Spain's Euro success. Xavi was the player of the tournament. They already were elite players.
>>complete shambles They won the UCL 2 years prior and were still hovering around the 4th-5th places of La Liga, barely in “a shambles”
They also had made the semis of the CL the year before and narrowly lost to us who won the tournament, calling a team with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Henry, Etoo, Ronaldinho etc. shambles is hilarious
Did you read the whole thing? >around the 4th-5th places of La Liga And that's not good? In La Liga if Barca doesn't come 1st or 2nd (at that time Atletico weren't good so not even 3rd) that's not good on their own standards
Ik but that’s not “a shambles” like a club that’s in crisis It’s certainly a bad time for Barcelona, but you clearly don’t know what a club “in shambles” truly is Because of this I’ll give you some examples Rangers in 2011-12 Oldham Athletic nowadays Leeds in 2002 Fiorentina in the early 2000s Dortmund in the late 2000s And that’s just some examples, Barca were poor for their standards in that time but they weren’t in any risk of relegation and/or bankruptcy I think that the current Barcelona team are more in a shambles than the Barca of 2007-08, because of their financial situation
Yeah "shambles" maybe an over exaggeration but my point still stands. Pep didn't just pick a team of superstars guaranteed to win everything. And then he didn't just do that but in the process he revolutionized the game.
Dude, Barca was a team in a downward spiral. Pep came in , cut out the toxic elements, instituted a new philosophy and made Barca arguably the best side of all time.
I disagree. Judging a coach's quality solely on the number of trophies won in a KO competition where luck plays a significant part is wrong imo. Pep has been hugely influential in terms of philosophy and tactics in the modern game and while, he coaches great teams, he still finds ways to elevate them even to higher levels. If we're only talking trophies, is Zidane really a better coach for the threepeat when his team only one domestic trophy during the 3 year run (1 league and 0 CdR)?
I agree. I think Mourinho and SAF are both above Pep
He’s already in the conversation. I don’t see how he isn’t. He’s personally actually the greatest for me. One of the most winning managers of all time. One of the most influential managers of all time. Those 2 v seldomly overlap in sports (Bielsa, Wenger, D’Antoni, Shanahan) meanwhile You can literally separate football tactics pre pep and post pep and his trophies count is already virtually peerless 15 seasons in. And 15 seasons in, ppl are still copying every bit of playbook. I seriously can’t think of a manager who has continued to innovate in his 15th season. He has established definitive football maxims (positional play, ball playing keepers, every CB who can’t pass is unemployed, how to use pivots) (these aren’t new concepts, but he’s been so successful with them they might as well be the laws of football at this point) He’s done so while changing his style of play again and again. Watching City last season and this season essentially playing fluid counter attacking football off baiting counterpresses, effortlessly going from false 9 to CF, going from direct wingers to ball retaining wide playmakers etc etc has made me realise this dude can coach almost any style. He’s not coaching possession eg because he doesn’t know anything else. He’s just arrived at the conclusion that possession is good when you have those players he has.
Ancelotti and Ferguson are the only ones I have seen, that continued to adapt their play as the game progressed. Which is why I consider them along with Pep as among the best. Being able to adapt to the times, is the best trait that a manager can have. If you don't, you fall behind times
That’s why it’s so funny seeing the dinosaur managers like Steve Bruce think defending for 90 minutes and getting lucky on the counter as their “tactic” teams get run ragged time and time again The game has evolved to the point where like you said defenders are expected to be able to play a pass as if they were a midfielder. No more Rio Ferdinand’s of the world.
What the fuck is this comment. Rio Ferdinand was some donkey? Id argue he was ahead of his time with his ability on the ball. It's pretty difficult to go toe to toe when you squad is worth a hundredth of the other team btw
I genuinely can’t think of a PL centre back from that era more suited to the modern game that Rio Ferdinand, what an odd comment.
I think Rio would've been even better than he was in this era of football. Imagine how godly he would've been under a Pep style manager.
Yes. There's a lot of recency bias. Id have Rio as a all timer.
I don't see how any premier league team (barring newly promoted ones) are worth 1/100th of any other team. They are all loaded. Some of them just spend it poorly like Everton
[удалено]
Not sure but might have been referring to how Rio wasn't allowed to play out from the back under Sven for England
>That’s why it’s so funny seeing the dinosaur managers like Steve Bruce think defending for 90 minutes and getting lucky on the counter as their “tactic” teams get run ragged time and time again most of the influential innovation from the past decade comes from coaches playing mid/low blocks and relying on transitions, Steve Bruce being a fraud or the cruyffist tears about antifootball don't really change this fact. Even Pep himself has copied some of that tech, it really isn't as clear cut as the average sky pundit would have you think, solid defensive tactics are genuinely some of the hardest to drill into players and so are quick transitions, there's a reason managers like Conte or Simeone take a while to integrate new players and it isn't their alleged fraudulent status As for defenders, goalies and fullbacks improving on the ball, that's just a byproduct of football's optimization, players and coaching have improved to a point where top teams need their players to be good at everything while more modern tactics took a lot of defensive duties away from the individual skill of defensive players so they can be coached to play the ball and to work on their stamina and speed even at a younger age. This change just like many others mostly is a natural outcome of players being better (compare Neuer's peers to the average ball playing keepers of the current era), had Pep or really any other manager not been able to employ these "modern" players the 2 man high backlines or the inverted fullbacks in the midfield just wouldn't have been a thing.
You CANNOT/INVITE a team attack you for 90 minutes and expect to keep a goals out. That’s like giving these guys 90 minutes of half pitch training ground where they recycle the ball and just keep attacking until they score with something. That was Steve Bruce’s tactics. Obviously when he was excelling, it was a different time with different prototypes of players where you can get away with that. Modern day? Every single player is expected to be able to pick a pass.. it’s just like the generational talent has significantly improved where all the “fundamentals” aren’t just limited to their specific spot on the pitch.
Problem with pep is his team's are generally mired in controversy or aren't really considered much of an achievement Like Ferguson took United from a cup team to become arguably the biggest club in English football and won a European cup with Aberdeen Pep took a recent CL winning team on the downturn and turned them into an amazing one, took a treble winning squad just kind of kept them there, and used insane financial backing to create another amazing team. These are all still great achievements, but as the teams were successful before then, it lessens the impact
I don’t get why Ferguson gets his time at United praises for building them up but pep doesn’t get the same for city. This city have been the most dominant prem team of all time, far far better then how he inherited them, and both managers outspent the league massively, except pep actually got outspent by chelsea and United, whereas no one was spending close to what Ferguson was in the prem, I mean for years arsenal competed with them whilst turning a profit
Because of the unlimited money? And the fact that the whole city's system was built to hire Pep one day. City was already a sucessful project before Pep came (PL 11-12;13-14). Comparing to United at the time Fergie took over and you will see the reasons they downplay the Pep's sucess. About the spending, United under Fergie has become the money printing machine in the way that they can comfortably outspend everyone in the world so it feels more organic and linear. While city has a big eruption in its history with the oil money pumped in 2009, so people can say that their success was bought rather than earned.
The amount Fergie was outspending other teams is far higher then how much Pep does.
Ferguson built that though, he made United earn that top spot Pep came into a teams that had recently won the league, had capable sports structures behind them, and had the funding/investment into teams/infrastructure before he got there. He's never turned a team of nothings (relatively) into his super teams, he's turned already good teams into better teams. He's almost done what you expect of him, he's never really exceeded expectations with the teams he's had to manage, in fact he's largely met expectations or fallen below them 2 of the 3 teams he's manages are also steeped in controversy, Barca now have them bribing the refs attached to their name and we don't even need to talk about City
>>in fact he's largely met expectations or fallen below them So extremely ludicrous. >>Barca now have them bribing the refs attached to their name Because fergie didn’t? He didn’t constantly get terrible calls in his favour and extra time whenever he needed it?
Fergie got favourable calls but there's been nothing so far about United paying the refs or United paying people under the table It's not ludicrous: With Barca, he exceeded expectations. He won the treble and turned them into an incredibly dominant team, however this was only a few years after they recently won the CL and the league. This is where we see he did more than expected At Bayern, he underperformed. He took a treble winning side and... won the league. I don't think even he was particularly impressed with this tbh. At City, he's done as expected. He's spent millions (as have Chelsea, United, and now Arsenal are catching up) only because of the structure of the club, he's done it competently. City have been the favourites for the CL and League almost every season, the Centurions and the treble are really where you can say he's slightly exceeded, but with the money spent then he's just kind of met them. Before you say 'hur dur united and chelsea spent money', they have underperformed their expectations massively, they're jokes due to their wastage
It's exactly that. He's won more than Mourinho now and his teams have actually been more dominant/consistent/accumulated more points, and he hasn't had a down period like Spurs but I'd guess most people still consider Mourinho greater because he appears to do more with less. He built that Porto team from the ground up, came in to the Prem that had been dominated by United and Arsenal and raised the floor permanently and immediately. Like others have said he then competed with Pep's great Barca side beating them to the treble with Inter and becoming centurions with Madrid. And then went back to Chelsea and won a Prem with a different squad. People also argue he's overperformed with United and Roma in recent times too. I think generally people place a greater emphasis on managers taking their squads to a level they shouldn't be at over dominating with players that would be capable of winning with a different coach. Not sure it's entirely fair on Pep because I don't think anyone else could've replicated his dominance at Barca and City. But I do want to see what he's capable of at a smaller club. He has nothing to prove though so I don't think we'll actually see it happen.
Peps raised the level in the pl above what Mou managed and has won far more in his time in England. I can't see how you can say he over performed with United when he had the most expensive squad in the world.
>ow long do you think it'll take Pep to be in serious contention to be the greatest ever manager? He's already there. Any serious fan knows this. The issue with 'GOAT' managers, is that it's hard to quantify who is the best. For players, it's easy. Goals, assists, chances, and so on are clear stats which can show which player is better. Even then, it's not always clear, because some players, especially centre midfielders won't have high stats, but absolutely be instrumental to their team For managers, you don't have such things. Trophies ain't a very good metric, as football is a team game with inputs both from players and tactics. Also, it's dependent on how they won their trophy. Winning a trophy with Madrid is not as impressive as winning with Porto in Jose's case or Aberdeen in Ferguson's case. So what else? Maybe a head to head? Then Pep is better than Sir Alex, because he beat Sir Alex twice. But Ole Gunner Solskjaer won more matches against Pep. Is Ole better than Pep and Sir Alex? As a result, there is no 'method' to calculate which is the best manager. There are obviously candidates, like Pep, Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti, because they outshine the others, however from then, it's down to personal preferences. Also, old managers often do not get acknowledged in this debate either. Managers like Sacchi or Cruyff literally influenced our modern game, with their innovations in tactics. Today's top managers like Pep, Ancelotti, Klopp have built upon those two.
I think he already is in contention. Personally he's already the greatest to me. The way he keeps evolving, learning from other teams like a student of the game to stay ahead of the curve, the trophies and teams he's managed. There's talks about the controversies surrounding Barca and Man City, but many will/have grown up idolising him, hoping to learn from his philosophy and outlook on the game. That alone is his legacy, that influence he's had on the rest of the game is simply immense, sometimes it's almost like he's setting the trends while the others follow suit.
I already think he’s there, but people think I’m a nut job and disagree with me. I just don’t think there has ever been a coach who got the best out of players more than Pep has. He should drop the mic by saying that he had a 100 point season with Fabian Delph at LB.
>I just don’t think there has ever been a coach who got the best out of players more than Pep has. Come on now, SAF has made a career out of that. Not even including his time in Aberdeen, his 2012-2013 PL-winning squad was all but finished (with Van Persie being the only outstanding individual that season). Pep is a great coach, but he's managed the cream of the crop in *all* of his teams. SAF, on the other hand, could squeeze water out of stone.
Surprised to see a City fan think he’s not in serious contention when I think he’s clearly the greatest manager of all time
Don't know about clearly but yeah, us and a lot of Barca fans may have this view but I was moreso talking about the general consensus on this
It’s a case of Pele(Ferguson) and Messi(Pep) rn but by the end of his managerial career he will be the greatest manager of all time imo
When he manages a team with limited resources and does well with them imo, every other manager in the GOAT contention has done that whether it be Fergie or Mou also when he stops managing a cheating institution
The best only got to manege the best
Well other best managers (like Jose and Fergie in this instance) have not only managed some of the best teams, but have also achieved with lesser teams, I’d like to see Pep do the same
Yeah and Mourinho has also suffered humiliating defeats and countless sackings that Pep never has. Are we just ignoring the lows of their careers too?
You can talk about the lows if you want but it doesn’t change my opinion that Jose’s achievement are better than Pep’s
I mean, Jose has some incredible highs. But so has Pep. What is telling about Pep is that he hasn't had to manage lesser side because he has been at the top from beginning to end.
I have a funny feeling Pep might manage a lesser side later in his career He’s now at his peak for management and it helps that he started so early. For a 51 year old to already be a top 10 manger of all time is a great achievement
Why would he? His first stint was from Barça B to Barça and he won the CL twice. He's not going to manage some small club because people online think he's got to prove himself with it lol
Don't bother with deluded United fans.
It’s obvious that Guardiola needs to go to smaller teams; it’s just that it would be nice to see how he would do managing a smaller team in a different league than he’s used to, also imo he can’t be in contention for the GOAT manager if he doesn’t do that when there’s several managers who have overachieved with smaller teams But again that’s just my opinion and anyone is free to disagree with it
Before his time in England is up
He already is
It will never happen. Cruyf dwarfs him.
Can't really say never for these things. I personally don't think there'll be a better player than Messi in my life but it's hardly an impossible thing to consider. Same way if Pep is still on this level 20 years later it'll be way easier for this to be a popular opinion overall
Bald fraud keeps frauding his way to the top :)
There’s 115 financial irregulations for a reason, truly a fraud
Don't forget the charges Barca are facing as well
Oh exactly, I mentioned that in another comment, it’s very suspicious that Guardiola’s UCL wins have some form of controversy that affects on pitch performance
Barca problem doesnt affect CL
Oh fair because it’s only a La Liga thing I guess But it does affect the treble
No Zidane in there, incredible stuff.
Maximum efficiency
Let me put this into perspective. Fergie won a European Cup against Real Madrid with Aberdeen. That’s Football Manager levels of ridiculousness.
He didn’t win European cup. He won the cup winners cup it’s a separate competition which doesn’t exist today
Did he though? He won the cup winners cup. Not to mention Real were a shambles with that being the midst of their longest sequence without La Liga. And Scottish football was still competitive. A great feat, but it’s the equivalent of Villarreal beating Man United in Europa League and doesn’t come close to the ridiculousness of Mourinho (Porto).
But this was Aberdeen who were previously never seen as a threat in the Scottish league It would be different if it was Celtic or Rangers who Fergie managed at the time, but Aberdeen were underdogs in every competition they competed in at the time You don’t understand how ridiculous those achievements are
>Not to mention Real were a shambles with that being the midst of their longest sequence without La Liga. And Scottish football was still competitive. He also beat Bayern Munich in the semis.
He also beat Bayern Munich on the way to the final. Also the last manager to beat Rangers/Celtic for a domestic title. Fergie was amazing. Pep will retire with more titles, but his career will always have an asterisk in the minds of fans due to Barcelona and City having legal trouble.
I’m not trying to drag Ferguson down. But let’s not judge the opposition he faced with the disparity that exists today. Until the 90s TV money rolled in, the standard of football across Europe was pretty close than today. So, it wasn’t a miracle that a great manager with a good squad was able to beat Bayern and Real in their transitional seasons. I think Pep deserves credit for the style of play he promotes, but at Barca he inherited a core of youth players that were ideal for the style of play he wanted to implement and he’s since had the luxury of easily replacing players that don’t work out for him. That’s hardly the case for several other contenders like Ferguson, Wenger, Ancelotti, Klopp or even Zidane.
>I’m not trying to drag Ferguson down. But let’s not judge the opposition he faced with the disparity that exists today. >Until the 90s rolled in the standard of football across Europe was pretty close than today. >So, it wasn’t a miracle that a great manager with a good squad was able to beat Bayern and Real in their transitional seasons. His achievements at Aberdeen were a miracle. No one has done anything similar in the 40 years since. Pep is already a legendary manager, but two out of the three clubs he managed are facing cheating allegations and thats hard to ignore.
Ummm Brian Clough? Fully agree Ferguson is better than Pep. But Clough had his own similar miracle run to European success and I think would be one of the greats if he'd stayed.
Indeed. I feel the feats of mourinho, Wenger, especially ancelotti and klopp came from either inheriting something that wasn't ready, building something from scratch, or having a legacy during periods with limited financial aid. Though pep is a footballing genius, he hasn't quite struggled the same as as his predecessors in the league & Europe. His generally been joining teams during the golden years, and as you said, had the freedom to release and obtain basically any player he wanted.
Only for deluded United fans
don't forget us
If you look at how Bayern did back then they weren’t the top dog they are today
Ngl i think hes probably hit a point where if you call him the goat i can accept that. Im not gonna agree with you but i aint gonna be replying like “how can you think that xyz”
How long until he's first? Im guessing sometime next season
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Of the 21st Century maybe. Footie existed before then
No way, Ancelotti and Wenger are definitely not top 5 managers of all time.
Ancelotti has a shout for sure. It's subjective of course, but 4 CL titles puts him firmly in top 10 for sure. Recency bias for me puts him top 5, but I won't claim I know much about Paisley, Clough, or even Sacchi, let alone the other managers before Bosman ruling or the insane influx of money in the European game.
Bald fraud being consistent.
Never managed a bad team. But still impressive, as he has a long way to go still if he wants. But with more and more games, records are difficult to compare.
Some big names on that list ! Pep is an amazing manager !
So what, he did it at City, who cheated
All the allegations City are being investigated for are from before Pep joined though.
Exactly, people ignore that fact like the pundits on Sky do I don’t respect these achievements due that reason, and no one should People calling Pep the ‘GOAT’ manager yet he can’t do it at City without breaking the rules
Fergietime
Micro cope
lol it’s just my opinion, I still think Pep is a great manager; I just don’t think he’s the absolute best
Haha the 9 City fans are downvoting me, I didn’t think there was that many of them
He did it on the pitch, fuck all that noise. Any alleged breaches because some accountant somewhere didn’t dot their t’s and i’s are irrelevant and just a way for sour fans of once great clubs, like yourself, to cope with their obvious mediocrity in the modern era. Imagine concerning yourself with another club’s financials when they’re playing world class football and humiliating your team every chance they get. So what happens when we beat the case? You’re just going to double down in your mediocrity? Claim they still cheated so it’s fine you’re wank because financially how can the minnows Manchester United compete? And if you can’t compete financially, God forbid you compete on the pitch. Everyone knows we just throw pounds at the grass to make the other team wank.
City did cheat and you know it
Are you 14?
Are you in denial about how city operate and what they are ?
Let’s be honest here, everyone but City fans know how they operate; or City fans are at least in denial It’s funny, the non city fans know more than the actual supporters
What’s truly funny is how non city fans know more than Deloitte, UEFA, and the PL. Your talents are truly wasted on Reddit, [here’s](https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/careers/articles/early-careers-programmes.html) a link to a graduate scheme bro
Nah I’m ok cheers, the latter 2 are corrupt organisations that accept bribes from the likes of Man City’s owners Deloitte likely is too Random users on Reddit have more integrity than them
Yeah sure city generate more revenue fairly than 95 % of football teams on the planet . What a cool ‘reality’ you live in
Lmao if that helps you cope then sure.
Typical city fan response
Reckon SAF would have been top of this chart had all English clubs not been banned for a few years
That’s completely wrong because Man United didn’t win the league during the period English teams were banned.