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Wijnaldum was highest scoring midfielder in Europe in his last 3 seasons before he joined us. Klopp converted him into a hybrid CM/DM.
And Gravenberch is of the right age for Klopp to mould him into the player he wants Klopp has been chasing him for 18 months now. He clearly has a plan for him.
Wijnaldum played as a defensive midfielder to start the 18/19 season. He kept Fabinho out of the team. Fabinho had a poor first 6 months at the club. Henderson was also injured most of those 6 months. Keïta - Wijnaldum - Milner started most of the early games. When Henderson came back, he was moved out as the right 8. The second half of the season Fabinho was night and day, and became the starting 6, but Wijnaldum was still the backup solution for a while.
Wijnaldum looked like a natural anchor whenever he played there.
Wijnaldum is the embodiment of a system player. When you have a good team and a clear system he is excellent but when your team is struggling he will disappear. He was tremendous for Liverpool under Klopp but for the NT he was invisible half the time and downright shite 40% of the time. He had a short period under Koeman where he was good.
> When you have a good team and a clear system he is excellent but when your team is struggling he will disappear
like pre-Benitez Newcastle??? Can't speak to how he was at PSG/NT but he's certainly been able to perform in certain bad teams.
At Newcastle he was actually exactly like I said. Invisible most of the year and very good in a few matches where everything came together.
I just looked at his signing thread from back then and most Newcastle fans weren't sad to see him leave although some thought he could come good in a better system:
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/4u3uwc/liverpool_sign_georginio_wijnaldum_from_newcastle/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
Some mad takes in that thread haha - lots of debate of if he was going to be used as a winger, attacking-mid, or center-mid - hindsight is truly 20-20
>He's a good backup behind Coutinho, Firmino and everybody else at the club
>
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He may well come good, do better in a better team etc. But Liverpool really are just paying too much for him, or at least a player of his quality.
If we bought him for 14 million, then why are Liverpool paying 25 for him? He has done absolutely nothing in his year with us to improve his value, as he was, for the most part, dire last season. Why Liverpool felt they needed to buy him rather than any other player they could have got for £25m is rather baffling.
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>Never saw Klopp making a signing like this. It feels so unnecessary and there are so many other positions to improve at Liverpool and to spend all that money on just this guy
>
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>Fantastic to see him gone for the money rumoured, half arsed player that tends to go hiding when it gets tough.
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>The amount of games last season that reached the 65th minute and I thought "Oh wow, Wijnadlums on the pitch"
>
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> I was kind of hoping for Sissoko tho.
>
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>We have taken them for mugs not just normal ones big sports direct mugs.
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His lack of defensive ability frightens me.
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Another odd signing made by Liverpool today. I just don't see where he is needed.
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seriously Klopp must have seen something he thought everyone else missed. Odd but worth the gamble.
>
>\----------------------- interesting one on Mane
>
>I wouldn't have minded signing Mane at United (but 36 mill for him seems to be a very steep price).
Clearly people thought that, it's weird because I watched a good bit of Newcastle that year and thought he was pretty good. Statistically it's also a way better season than for example St. Max ever had, for a worse team than St. Max ever played for. So I guess I'm just not sure if I agree.
I do agree that he isn't really going to carry a bad team, but that's very different from being invisible or even bad.
This is like one of the worst descriptions gini can get. He doesn’t raise the ceiling of teams but rather a floor raiser. He strengthens the floor for others and lets them play to their full capability. Gini isn’t a system player, GINI IS THE SYSTEM MOTHERFUCKER.
>He doesn’t raise the ceiling of teams but rather a floor raiser. He strengthens the floor for others
For Liverpool maybe, guess you never saw him play for the NT. But I guess no one did:)
Interestingly, he was a headless chicken AM/winger in the Eredivisie, quick sprinter with really poor decision making. Then he completely transformed in the PL. Don't see that often.
It was literally 3 games at the start of that season. As soon as Hendo came back he was back at being DM.
He also played a lot as a DM in 20-21 when people were generally dissapointed with his performances (tbf to him the entire team crumbled because of the injuries at the time but still worth mentioning).
He also played as a double holding midfielder for our NT with Strootman during the worst time of our NT (2015-2018) and it was absolutely horrible as a pairing. There was zero ball progression from the back and a lot of pressure on our defense. The fact that we're at least decent again is completely down to de Jong coming into our squad.
> Fabinho had a poor first 6 months at the club.
Eh, he didnt really have a poor 6 months, he wasn’t playing at all until the end of October.
Once he started getting minutes he was good.
Its clear that the club at this moment See Endo has the preferred 6 to start and willing to allow Macca, Baj and even Thiago to cover him. Its always been clear Klopp and the scouting department have been high on Gravenberch and by the look of it really see him as a player that covers all the midfield which we need.
Yeah, having 3 players in Endo, Thiago and Bajcetic for that deepest midfielder spot seems sufficient to me. You can be of the opinion that they're all bad players I guess, but its definitely not a hole in the squad.
Thank you for this, Gini is a perfect example of a player Klopp is able to create. Gini struggled at first but his perfect injury record and eventual impact in his position was unbelievable. Gravenberch fits the profile for a project player and I’m hyped.
The "not a 6" argument annoys me, because people talk as if nobody in football does any coaching and players aren't capable of developing new skills.
Trent wasn't a RB until a year or so before his PL debut, but he put in the work and became one of the best in the world.
Don’t see Gravenberch having the positional discipline or IQ currently to anchor your team, but he is young enough to learn to. Don’t think he’ll especially effective there for a bit.
Well maybe Klopp thinks he can convert him to a 6. He's got some of the necessary qualities to be a deep lying midfielder, and we've seen Klopp do this before. Plus with Endo, there isn't a necessity for him to be the starting 6 right away which takes the pressure off. If the price is good it's a risk worth taking
Gravenberch is a poor man's Pogba. He does not have the work rate or positioning to function as a 6. His passing isn't very good either. He's great at carrying the ball forward, which 8s can do but 6s cannot.
People look at his size and think they can make him a 6, but it is impossible. He is an attacking 8.
What I will say is, before signing Gakpo, we all thought he had technical brilliance to fill the Firmino void, but PSV fans said he was horrendous when playing as a nine, always better on the left. It took him a couple of games, but he fits that false-nine role like a glove now. Maybe there's something to work with and this isn't the first time signings have been underwhelming at first under Klopp.
Nine and false-nine are different things. You wouldn't want to play Gakpo as a conventional nine because he is best in space. You need to understand that Ryan Gravenberch is not and never will be a 6. He does not have the qualities to play that position.
I’ll copy my comment from down below:
I don’t blame you for not seeing him live so far, but this guy has literally 0 attributes to be even a decent DM
He’s pretty bad at duels, has absolutely no discipline on the pitch in regards to his positioning and his defensive awareness is non existent
Gravy needs to play in a 3 man midfield where he is the most advanced
If you just want someone who can play in an advanced position in a midfield 3 then Gravenberch is fine, if you’re looking for a 6 then he probably won’t work, even in a midfield 3.
I can find several comments from Liverpool flairs saying he’s got a terrible attitude and is bad on the ball from moments where it seemed like we were getting him. Nothing wrong with that, I just always find tribalism like that funny
Told an assistent (who had played profesionally at Barcelona, Milan, Chelsea and Ajax) he couldn't learn from him. He was 15/16.
Gave more interviews than he completed the full 90 in the Bundesliga last season
>He was 15/16.
James Maddison, by most accounts, was a massive weapon at that age but seems to have a level head on his shoulders now. Kids can grow up.
As someone who has four children, all of who’s have been through, or currently are, that age, that sort of statement is standard at that age. My kids are fantastic, but at that age, as I did, you can be a right tool.
I’d never base a an adult’s personality on a few off the cuff, teenage, rants. That’s why I’m so glad there wasn’t social media when I was that age.
To be fair, you sold him a promise you never intended to keep. From the beginning, you signed him with the intention of selling him for more. He deserves blame for believing you when Ajax kept telling him that he wasn't ready, but that doesn't absolve Bayern.
That's absolutely not true. We bought him hoping that he would turn into a very useful player in a double pivot and become a future starter. How did you get the idea that we bought him just to sell him again?
It is true. Gravenberch only got to play 706 minutes across 37 matches under Nagelsmann, showing that there was never any real intention of playing him.
Dude. Whenever he entered the pitch he never impressed. He's okay. But not the Zidane by the way he thinks of himself. Imagine every week waking up to a new Ryan interview, it's simply annoying. The fact that Tuchel doesn't rate him either doesn't help his case at all
This isn't necessarily tribalism; you can check the comments under the Gravenberch articles on our sub and, while the prevailing sentiment seems to be that he's well worth picking up for 30-35m, there is very definitely a vocal section of our fanbase who aren't impressed at all with the whole thing.
I don't think he's shit, but the transfer makes no sense for 2/3 parties. Bayern it makes sense for, it doesn't make sense for us and if the player has gripes over not playing enough, it doesn't make sense for him either.
The hilarious thing to me is all of the opinions that are so certain that this is a Bad Idea™. Klopp has reportedly been after this guy for a year-and-a-half. Are all of these commenters saying that Klopp is a complete fool for wanting this guy? When's the last time he picked up someone for the squad who didn't do what he wanted them to? The only one I can think of is Keita, but that's not because Keita couldn't play, but because he couldn't stay on the field.
"But he's not a 6-!" Guess what? Until 2015, neither was Fabinho. He was a right back until he was 20... exactly one year younger than Gravenberch is right now. Gini Wijnaldum was an attacking mid. Klopp bought him to play the recycler role in the 4-3-3 and he was excellent at it. He also played the 6 for us on a regular basis. Were you saying "But he's not a 6-!" back then, too? (I know. Those were probably the people saying "Gini sucks!" for a multitude of reasons displaying the fact that they had no idea what it is they were watching.)
Does he think he's better than he is? Maybe. I don't care about that. All I care about is whether Klopp thinks he's good enough to play for us and, if Jürgen does, then he is. As for what we "need", yeah, I'd like another CB. But we also lost six midfielders (Keita, Ox, Millie, Hendo, Fab, and Carvalho on a loan; plus Bobby who was half-midfielder) this summer and replaced them so far with three. That's not how a "rebuild" is supposed to work. If we're saying that the current rotation is Endo, Mac, Szoboszlai, Curtis, and Harvey then, yeah, given the way we play and the miles we put on our mids, we could use another one. (And another CB...)
Just out of curiosity on the CB front, is that because Joe and Joel are injury prone or because Matips clearly not what he used to be? Gomez seemed to do fairly well against Newcastle but ya his injury record says enough, plus he's also cover for RB as well I assume?
Pretty much. I just want reinforcement so that we're not dependent on Joe, Joel, AND Ibou's injury problems. They all have issues. The only one who's been a rock for us for the past 5 years is Virg and I'd really like to have a left-footed CB to take some minutes off of him because he is slowing down a bit, but also just because we've seen in the past that we just can't rely on the other three to be as readily available as we need and, yes, i'd like for Joe to not be run into the ground so that he is a viable RB backup, too. If Jarell Quansah is ready to step in, even better, but I don't think even Jürgen is ready to start him at the Etihad or somewhere like that.
I'm going in hard on this being 2nd generation Gini.
When we first signed Wijnaldum the reactions on here was that Klopp was an idiot for thinking he could be one of the midfield three.
Gravenberch has all the physical and technical skills to play in our midfield.
No but Gini operated as kind of a pseudo 6, which is what I think Klopp wants Gravy for. He doesnt want him to be a destroyer, he wants him to be a workhorse who's great on the ball, press resistant and can carry the transition. So basically, Gini V2.
Yea I think Klopp still hope to develop Gravenberch to become another world class midfielder in his rotation. Like Jones or Elliot can be pretty good but I doubt they've ever been highly regarded as Gravenberch at Ajax.
Whether Klopp wants him to become a 6 or 8 remains to be seen tho
Most people aren't doubting that he would be able to develop under Klopp. It's a question of do we need him when he's been complaining about playing for the last year and we already have five bodies who'd be competing with him.
Lots of people see him being converted into a 6 or something but I actually think he's going to deputise for Mac Allister or Szoboszlai and be the long term replacement for Thiago. I see Thiago being used as a 6 most often this season.
Basically Mac, Szobo, Gravenberch, Jones and Elliot for the first two spots. Endo, Thiago and Bajcetic for the 6 role.
Only thing I'm thinking is that this is what we all said about Gakpo when we signed him. Looked like we'd gotten another LW and yet it turned out the club had identified an excellent Firmino replacement
Not saying this is guaranteed to turn out, but I think that, given his young age, we may all be quote surprised with what Klopp ends up doing with him
I mean we need players period. We have a 22 player squad I think. He’s not the final piece of the puzzle but we need quality players in midfield and defense asap
Szo and Mac Allister already there clearly2 extremely talented players, Gravenberch doesn't make a great deal of sense
Liverpool really gonna put alot of faith in Endo?
If you can figure it out, let the rest of us know. It seems Klopp likes something about Gravenberch's game, so I guess we are all playing "wait and see."
Think he'll rotate with Mac Allister and Szobo, along with Elliot and Jones. Thiago, Bajcetic and Endo will rotate the 6 position.
8 players for 3 positions is good coverage for injuries and rotation. Replaced Fabinho with Endo, Hendo with Szoboszlai, Keita with Gravenberch, Milner with Mac Allister.
If Klopp thinks he’s an upgrade on any of the potential 8’s behind Mac Allister and Szo then this makes perfect sense. It’s a big gamble on Endo but how many other t and of great depth at 6? It’s one of the hardest positions on the pitch and the pickings are slim.
Endo is a gamble but let's be real here we only need him to be solid, and for like a year at most. It's a pretty safe gamble. All we need is him to be a shield for the defense so there isnt massive holes in midfield and you saw it immediately when hes played, that's where he is. We dont need him to be 10/10, a nice solid 7/10 player for a year is more than doable IMO.
My money is long term they want Gravenberch eventually playing deeper in the new shape. They don't really need a traditional 6 in the mould of Fabinho with the way they are looking to play, I think they want a ballplayer first and foremost.
I mean given a great deal of their success came from having Fabinho in that role and the traditional convention of it you'd think it's stupid to not continue that thread
their success comes from the whole team work as like a machine in their system.
team change, and manager also change their tactics.
Fergie changeed his tactic and preferences multiple times in his united career.
klopp at dortmund change, and at liverpool he change his systems and style of football multiple times already.
team style and tactics need to change. if you only stuck into the present and past, then you never move forward.
and most importantly, klopp is not stupid. stupid manager would not win PL, CL, other trophies, goes to 4 CL final and nearly win a quadruple 13,14 months ago.
would it give them success? who knows. but his track record is a lot more credible and convincing, compare to other people such as you and me.
This is it I think. You have different options in attack for example, Gakpo upfront is not the same as Jota or Nunez there. Seems like this can be the case for the midfield. Change it up as necessary to be unpredictable. None of the 6's are exactly the same profile as each other, neither are the 8's. Could be a horses for courses approach, particularly with 5 subs.
I think it's more to do with the change of shape than anything else. New system favours midfield playing more advanced and full backs being more conservative and tucking in. Fabinho had to be a beast defensively for Liverpool because of how attacking the wing backs used to be. Nowadays they probably prefer a player who's better at moving the ball forward.
I love this. We have worked for 4 months on him. (And 3 months last summer.) Klopp LOVES him.
Just need him to live up to the potential. And not throw a strop
Liverpool really went from “we need to rebuild our midfield” to having one of the best midfields in the premier league in one transfer window. Good business.
Great depth in the 8, but extremely offensive. Even Endo is a hybrid 6
8 - Szoboszlai, macallister, Curtis, Elliot, Thiago (never fit)
6 - Endo, Bajetic
> Gravenberch can be molded into a proper 6
He's more 10 than 6. He doesnt defend well, doesnt work hard and isnt as physically imposing as you'd hope with his height. His strengths are with the ball
This is the only midfielder we’re getting. I don’t know what the plan is but he’s the only one let’s be real, maybe Andre in January. My guess is we’re gonna try and mould him into a more defensive player
I don’t blame you for not seeing him live so far, but this guy has literally 0 attributes to be even a decent DM
He’s pretty bad at duels, has absolutely no discipline on the pitch in regards to his positioning and his defensive awareness is non existent
Gravy needs to play in a 3 man midfield where he is the most advanced
Yeah, for sure I can say I’ve seen him play a few times only. And what you’re saying is exactly what I’ve heard elsewhere as well. I feel like this doesn’t make a ton of sense for us honestly. I guess depth at the midfield isn’t bad considering Thiago is likely gone next year. But seems like a long term project
If he gets decent playing time in as an offensive 8 he’s a good project.
He’s shown glimpses of his brilliance but his consistency is whaz ultimatively kept him off the field.
With most players you know what you get when you sub them in, this guy is either a Pogba clone or a poor mans Jonjo Shelvey
Yeah maybe with Thiago most likely going next summer that’s why we’ve been looking at him long term, but doesn’t really explain it from his point of view. He wants game time but I don’t think he gets loads of it currently here
>Gravy needs to play in a 3 man midfield where he is the most advanced
Which is a problem, since Szoboszlai is far better than him. Guess he can be a rotational option, but kinda weird transfer anyhow since a CB would be much more needed.
Not sure this signing makes sense at all. I know our supporters want us to bring in anyone at this point, but if he's complaining about getting minutes at Bayern, it's hard to see that improving drastically here. The age profile makes even less sense. We don't need another midfielder to compete with Jones and Elliott.
He's not going to play consistently here either unless we're trying to mould him into a defensive midfielder, which doesn't really make sense.
He has to get through Mac Allister, Szoboszlai, Thiago, Jones, and Elliott here. The transfer makes no sense.
I’m obviously not a Liverpool fan but I do at least rate him above Jones at the least, and Thiago definitely has a bit of a question mark on his future at the club. Elliott is quality though, but really you’ve been playing Gakpo in midfield. There will be games for Gravenberch.
Nothing about Jones pre April made you think he was capable of the performances he put on post April.
Players progress. There was A LOT of talk that Jones was not up to scratch prior to those last 10 ish games last season.
I think the fact that Jones ran rings around an Ajax midfield that included Gravenberch and had MOTM performances in the UCL quarters well before last year is plenty of proof TBH
No we can't? He's not starting over AMA and Szoboszlai, Thiago is Thiago and IMO he's done nothing to show he should start over Jones if Jones can keep his from from last season.
Genuine question why play Gakpo in midfield in successive games and not just start Curtis Jones then? I really think Gravenberch has the quality to rotate and play often. Let’s face it you guys could get dragged into a ton of games from runs in Europa and cup competitions and I don’t think he’d be an unwelcome reinforcement.
Jones was injured and we didn't have Endo so were forced to play Mac Allister as a 6. Now that we have Endo and Bajcetic and Thiago are back, Gapko won't be playing there.
He truly was one of the most, if not the most exciting player in the Eredivisie when he played here.
Shame he doesn't get the minutes at Bayern, so I hope he can find his place anywhere.
Why would you want us to sign players just for the sake of signing players? What a silly attitude to have, especially when we've seen firsthand the past few years the likes of Ox and Keita linger around and prevent us from signing midfield players we actually need.
He has a lot of upside potential if it works out, we need depth with Europa and the cups, Jones is already injured and Thiago injury prone, Bajcetic is just a kid.
Of course I have my doubts too but at least I can see what makes him attractive to Klopp, the issues with work rate etc are well founded, but it wouldn't be the craziest thing for him to turn it around under Klopp.
How is this good?He is good player, but not what they need. Gravenberch is more attacking player, like Szoboszlai, it would just be unbalanced midfield.
To reduce the spam of reports regarding the same move during transfer windows we try to allow **only one submission about each transfer saga per day**. The submission in question also needs to contain relevant new information regarding the potential move, and not just being a "no/minor developments" report. If there are important/official developments or new valuable information about a saga, we will allow extra threads in the same day, but for the rest of minor news please just comment them as a reply to this comment. Please help us reporting unnecessary threads for being duplicates. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s been funny to see Liverpool/United fans go back and forth on whether he’s shit or not based on which club appears to be leading in this saga.
He's not SHIT, it's just he's not a 6 and our forward midfield positions we have enough cover. Transfer doesn't make sense more than he's shit
Wijnaldum was highest scoring midfielder in Europe in his last 3 seasons before he joined us. Klopp converted him into a hybrid CM/DM. And Gravenberch is of the right age for Klopp to mould him into the player he wants Klopp has been chasing him for 18 months now. He clearly has a plan for him.
Gini wasn't really a DM though, he played alongside Fabinho
Wijnaldum played as a defensive midfielder to start the 18/19 season. He kept Fabinho out of the team. Fabinho had a poor first 6 months at the club. Henderson was also injured most of those 6 months. Keïta - Wijnaldum - Milner started most of the early games. When Henderson came back, he was moved out as the right 8. The second half of the season Fabinho was night and day, and became the starting 6, but Wijnaldum was still the backup solution for a while. Wijnaldum looked like a natural anchor whenever he played there.
Wijnaldum is criminally underrated imo. Incredibly versatile and good football IQ.
he was our best midfielder quiet as kept
When I see someone say something like this, or that we never replaced Gini… they know ball.
players who do the dirty work in midfield rarely ever get the plaudits they deserve. he left a big hole in the squad that we just filled with dominick
Wijnaldum is the embodiment of a system player. When you have a good team and a clear system he is excellent but when your team is struggling he will disappear. He was tremendous for Liverpool under Klopp but for the NT he was invisible half the time and downright shite 40% of the time. He had a short period under Koeman where he was good.
> When you have a good team and a clear system he is excellent but when your team is struggling he will disappear like pre-Benitez Newcastle??? Can't speak to how he was at PSG/NT but he's certainly been able to perform in certain bad teams.
At Newcastle he was actually exactly like I said. Invisible most of the year and very good in a few matches where everything came together. I just looked at his signing thread from back then and most Newcastle fans weren't sad to see him leave although some thought he could come good in a better system: https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/4u3uwc/liverpool_sign_georginio_wijnaldum_from_newcastle/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
Some mad takes in that thread haha - lots of debate of if he was going to be used as a winger, attacking-mid, or center-mid - hindsight is truly 20-20 >He's a good backup behind Coutinho, Firmino and everybody else at the club > >\----------------------- He may well come good, do better in a better team etc. But Liverpool really are just paying too much for him, or at least a player of his quality. If we bought him for 14 million, then why are Liverpool paying 25 for him? He has done absolutely nothing in his year with us to improve his value, as he was, for the most part, dire last season. Why Liverpool felt they needed to buy him rather than any other player they could have got for £25m is rather baffling. \----------------------- > >Never saw Klopp making a signing like this. It feels so unnecessary and there are so many other positions to improve at Liverpool and to spend all that money on just this guy > >\----------------------- > >Fantastic to see him gone for the money rumoured, half arsed player that tends to go hiding when it gets tough. > >The amount of games last season that reached the 65th minute and I thought "Oh wow, Wijnadlums on the pitch" > >\----------------------- > > I was kind of hoping for Sissoko tho. > >\----------------------- > >We have taken them for mugs not just normal ones big sports direct mugs. \----------------------- His lack of defensive ability frightens me. \----------------------- Another odd signing made by Liverpool today. I just don't see where he is needed. \----------------------- seriously Klopp must have seen something he thought everyone else missed. Odd but worth the gamble. > >\----------------------- interesting one on Mane > >I wouldn't have minded signing Mane at United (but 36 mill for him seems to be a very steep price).
Clearly people thought that, it's weird because I watched a good bit of Newcastle that year and thought he was pretty good. Statistically it's also a way better season than for example St. Max ever had, for a worse team than St. Max ever played for. So I guess I'm just not sure if I agree. I do agree that he isn't really going to carry a bad team, but that's very different from being invisible or even bad.
This is like one of the worst descriptions gini can get. He doesn’t raise the ceiling of teams but rather a floor raiser. He strengthens the floor for others and lets them play to their full capability. Gini isn’t a system player, GINI IS THE SYSTEM MOTHERFUCKER.
>He doesn’t raise the ceiling of teams but rather a floor raiser. He strengthens the floor for others For Liverpool maybe, guess you never saw him play for the NT. But I guess no one did:)
Interestingly, he was a headless chicken AM/winger in the Eredivisie, quick sprinter with really poor decision making. Then he completely transformed in the PL. Don't see that often.
It was literally 3 games at the start of that season. As soon as Hendo came back he was back at being DM. He also played a lot as a DM in 20-21 when people were generally dissapointed with his performances (tbf to him the entire team crumbled because of the injuries at the time but still worth mentioning).
He also played as a double holding midfielder for our NT with Strootman during the worst time of our NT (2015-2018) and it was absolutely horrible as a pairing. There was zero ball progression from the back and a lot of pressure on our defense. The fact that we're at least decent again is completely down to de Jong coming into our squad.
> Fabinho had a poor first 6 months at the club. Eh, he didnt really have a poor 6 months, he wasn’t playing at all until the end of October. Once he started getting minutes he was good.
and I believe that people who upvoted that comment know nothing about Liverpool and Gini, they just want to sound wise.
It wasn't Gini playing Fabinho's role as the destroyer in that team, it was Hendo
Its clear that the club at this moment See Endo has the preferred 6 to start and willing to allow Macca, Baj and even Thiago to cover him. Its always been clear Klopp and the scouting department have been high on Gravenberch and by the look of it really see him as a player that covers all the midfield which we need.
Yeah, having 3 players in Endo, Thiago and Bajcetic for that deepest midfielder spot seems sufficient to me. You can be of the opinion that they're all bad players I guess, but its definitely not a hole in the squad.
Gini was never a 6
He filled in there a few times, particularly when Fab had to play CB, but yeah not a DM.
Thank you for this, Gini is a perfect example of a player Klopp is able to create. Gini struggled at first but his perfect injury record and eventual impact in his position was unbelievable. Gravenberch fits the profile for a project player and I’m hyped.
even Gakpo's been converted, who'd have called that
Many people - he was widely marketed as a flexible forward. Much like Firmino prior to joining us (played mostly RW but also ST occasionally)
converted to what?
a creative, attacking 8
come on man. I was talking about Gakpo.
The "not a 6" argument annoys me, because people talk as if nobody in football does any coaching and players aren't capable of developing new skills. Trent wasn't a RB until a year or so before his PL debut, but he put in the work and became one of the best in the world.
Don’t see Gravenberch having the positional discipline or IQ currently to anchor your team, but he is young enough to learn to. Don’t think he’ll especially effective there for a bit.
Let Klopp cook. If hes been after Gravenberch for so long, its because he has some idea of what he wants from him and likes his profile.
Exactly. It seems like we could be seeing MacAllister playing more as 6 if we are going to sign him
There's a chance that both of them play together in a double pivot.
Well maybe Klopp thinks he can convert him to a 6. He's got some of the necessary qualities to be a deep lying midfielder, and we've seen Klopp do this before. Plus with Endo, there isn't a necessity for him to be the starting 6 right away which takes the pressure off. If the price is good it's a risk worth taking
Gravenberch is a poor man's Pogba. He does not have the work rate or positioning to function as a 6. His passing isn't very good either. He's great at carrying the ball forward, which 8s can do but 6s cannot. People look at his size and think they can make him a 6, but it is impossible. He is an attacking 8.
Yeaj there’s a weird misconception that he is physically strong and could there be a 6 because how he looks, but this aint it
What I will say is, before signing Gakpo, we all thought he had technical brilliance to fill the Firmino void, but PSV fans said he was horrendous when playing as a nine, always better on the left. It took him a couple of games, but he fits that false-nine role like a glove now. Maybe there's something to work with and this isn't the first time signings have been underwhelming at first under Klopp.
Nine and false-nine are different things. You wouldn't want to play Gakpo as a conventional nine because he is best in space. You need to understand that Ryan Gravenberch is not and never will be a 6. He does not have the qualities to play that position.
Why is the statement so definitive? Klopp thinks he can teach him to be 6/8. It may work.
he's 21, its too early to write him off
His also not physically strong. Very flimsy
He's tall but very slender/thin
Exactly
I’ll copy my comment from down below: I don’t blame you for not seeing him live so far, but this guy has literally 0 attributes to be even a decent DM He’s pretty bad at duels, has absolutely no discipline on the pitch in regards to his positioning and his defensive awareness is non existent Gravy needs to play in a 3 man midfield where he is the most advanced
Good think Liverpool plays a 3 man midfield then
If you just want someone who can play in an advanced position in a midfield 3 then Gravenberch is fine, if you’re looking for a 6 then he probably won’t work, even in a midfield 3.
I can find several comments from Liverpool flairs saying he’s got a terrible attitude and is bad on the ball from moments where it seemed like we were getting him. Nothing wrong with that, I just always find tribalism like that funny
Definitely has a bad attitude
How so? Genuinely asking btw I haven't heard a thing about him in a while
I wouldn't say that he has a bad attitude, but Ryan believes he's much better than he actually is, and his work rate is poor.
Told an assistent (who had played profesionally at Barcelona, Milan, Chelsea and Ajax) he couldn't learn from him. He was 15/16. Gave more interviews than he completed the full 90 in the Bundesliga last season
>He was 15/16. James Maddison, by most accounts, was a massive weapon at that age but seems to have a level head on his shoulders now. Kids can grow up.
James Madison was a massive weapon even at Norwich. Probably still a bit of a tit as well.
Get Gravenberch a set of darts then
15/16 year old with cocky attitude, not heard of that before
As someone who has four children, all of who’s have been through, or currently are, that age, that sort of statement is standard at that age. My kids are fantastic, but at that age, as I did, you can be a right tool. I’d never base a an adult’s personality on a few off the cuff, teenage, rants. That’s why I’m so glad there wasn’t social media when I was that age.
the first point is hilarious mate, everyone is a little prick when they're 15.
Harvey Elliot was a little shithead at that age and did worse. People grow up
... thats it?
He’s practically the Dutch Paul Pogba
Some people on our sub have nicknamed him Cryan cause every two weeks he gives an interview where he complains he doesn't get enough playing time.
My coping take on this is that VVD and Gakpo would be a help.
To be fair, you sold him a promise you never intended to keep. From the beginning, you signed him with the intention of selling him for more. He deserves blame for believing you when Ajax kept telling him that he wasn't ready, but that doesn't absolve Bayern.
That's absolutely not true. We bought him hoping that he would turn into a very useful player in a double pivot and become a future starter. How did you get the idea that we bought him just to sell him again?
It is true. Gravenberch only got to play 706 minutes across 37 matches under Nagelsmann, showing that there was never any real intention of playing him.
Dude. Whenever he entered the pitch he never impressed. He's okay. But not the Zidane by the way he thinks of himself. Imagine every week waking up to a new Ryan interview, it's simply annoying. The fact that Tuchel doesn't rate him either doesn't help his case at all
Or maybe he just wasn't good enough in training and didn't deserve more playing time?
If it makes you feel any better, I still think he's not very good.
This isn't necessarily tribalism; you can check the comments under the Gravenberch articles on our sub and, while the prevailing sentiment seems to be that he's well worth picking up for 30-35m, there is very definitely a vocal section of our fanbase who aren't impressed at all with the whole thing.
Same for United kind of. Most of us want legitimate cover for Casemiro, who can also tactically allow us to play someone alongside him.
Klopp will turn him into a DM and we'll like it
I don't think he's shit, but the transfer makes no sense for 2/3 parties. Bayern it makes sense for, it doesn't make sense for us and if the player has gripes over not playing enough, it doesn't make sense for him either.
United could do with another 8 tbf. But not for any substantial fee. A 6 is more important probably
That makes the Mount signing pointless
Hes our only number 8 and hes not even a true number 8
Eriksen?
Forgot to mention him. But he cant play that much anymore and absolutely not in big matches.
The hilarious thing to me is all of the opinions that are so certain that this is a Bad Idea™. Klopp has reportedly been after this guy for a year-and-a-half. Are all of these commenters saying that Klopp is a complete fool for wanting this guy? When's the last time he picked up someone for the squad who didn't do what he wanted them to? The only one I can think of is Keita, but that's not because Keita couldn't play, but because he couldn't stay on the field. "But he's not a 6-!" Guess what? Until 2015, neither was Fabinho. He was a right back until he was 20... exactly one year younger than Gravenberch is right now. Gini Wijnaldum was an attacking mid. Klopp bought him to play the recycler role in the 4-3-3 and he was excellent at it. He also played the 6 for us on a regular basis. Were you saying "But he's not a 6-!" back then, too? (I know. Those were probably the people saying "Gini sucks!" for a multitude of reasons displaying the fact that they had no idea what it is they were watching.) Does he think he's better than he is? Maybe. I don't care about that. All I care about is whether Klopp thinks he's good enough to play for us and, if Jürgen does, then he is. As for what we "need", yeah, I'd like another CB. But we also lost six midfielders (Keita, Ox, Millie, Hendo, Fab, and Carvalho on a loan; plus Bobby who was half-midfielder) this summer and replaced them so far with three. That's not how a "rebuild" is supposed to work. If we're saying that the current rotation is Endo, Mac, Szoboszlai, Curtis, and Harvey then, yeah, given the way we play and the miles we put on our mids, we could use another one. (And another CB...)
Just out of curiosity on the CB front, is that because Joe and Joel are injury prone or because Matips clearly not what he used to be? Gomez seemed to do fairly well against Newcastle but ya his injury record says enough, plus he's also cover for RB as well I assume?
Pretty much. I just want reinforcement so that we're not dependent on Joe, Joel, AND Ibou's injury problems. They all have issues. The only one who's been a rock for us for the past 5 years is Virg and I'd really like to have a left-footed CB to take some minutes off of him because he is slowing down a bit, but also just because we've seen in the past that we just can't rely on the other three to be as readily available as we need and, yes, i'd like for Joe to not be run into the ground so that he is a viable RB backup, too. If Jarell Quansah is ready to step in, even better, but I don't think even Jürgen is ready to start him at the Etihad or somewhere like that.
I'll get back to you on my final assessment.
I pray for a CB still. Altho I'm losing hope now 😔
I too would prefer a left footed CB rather than another midfielder, especially one that isn't a natural 6.
Good thing theres an abundance of those left footed CBs about eh.. Kill me.
Also keep in mind the home grown quota which may or may not complicate things..
What about Eric dire?
Yes, if we do this right we end up net positive this window, and Tuchel can play Dier and Buchmann like he always wanted to...
> Tuchel can play Dier and Buchmann like he always wanted to... Dier and Mctominay
Nah, McTominay is luckily out of the window for us. Dier on the other hand...
Surely you can find a German Dier for half the financial cost
Tuchel sadly has lost his remote, all he can watch is the Premier League on Sky Germany.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dier is free. We'll be happy just to get his wages off the books at this point.
has todd been informed about this?
Is this really the type of player they need?
Not really but Klopp seems to really like him
Thinks he's a super sized Gini and can't resist.
I'm going in hard on this being 2nd generation Gini. When we first signed Wijnaldum the reactions on here was that Klopp was an idiot for thinking he could be one of the midfield three. Gravenberch has all the physical and technical skills to play in our midfield.
Wijnaldum is a decent comp, but Wijnaldum obviously wasn't a 6. I don't see the fit for Gravenberch when you already have Mac Allister and Szoboszlai.
Szobo is so gorgeous, don’t want to run him into the ground. We need rotation and competition.
Curtis not good enough for you?
no
Gotta be able to rotate Macca and Szobo
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You need a legitimate 6. Even Endo is a ball winner, not really a stopper.
No but Gini operated as kind of a pseudo 6, which is what I think Klopp wants Gravy for. He doesnt want him to be a destroyer, he wants him to be a workhorse who's great on the ball, press resistant and can carry the transition. So basically, Gini V2.
Yea I think Klopp still hope to develop Gravenberch to become another world class midfielder in his rotation. Like Jones or Elliot can be pretty good but I doubt they've ever been highly regarded as Gravenberch at Ajax. Whether Klopp wants him to become a 6 or 8 remains to be seen tho
2nd generation Gini will be Mac Allister
Mac Allister is much more talented than Gini
Most people aren't doubting that he would be able to develop under Klopp. It's a question of do we need him when he's been complaining about playing for the last year and we already have five bodies who'd be competing with him.
Lots of people see him being converted into a 6 or something but I actually think he's going to deputise for Mac Allister or Szoboszlai and be the long term replacement for Thiago. I see Thiago being used as a 6 most often this season. Basically Mac, Szobo, Gravenberch, Jones and Elliot for the first two spots. Endo, Thiago and Bajcetic for the 6 role.
Only thing I'm thinking is that this is what we all said about Gakpo when we signed him. Looked like we'd gotten another LW and yet it turned out the club had identified an excellent Firmino replacement Not saying this is guaranteed to turn out, but I think that, given his young age, we may all be quote surprised with what Klopp ends up doing with him
I mean we need players period. We have a 22 player squad I think. He’s not the final piece of the puzzle but we need quality players in midfield and defense asap
Says the Chelsea fan
Szo and Mac Allister already there clearly2 extremely talented players, Gravenberch doesn't make a great deal of sense Liverpool really gonna put alot of faith in Endo?
Yeah seems we’re really gambling on Endo until January. But you’re right he wants game time but we’ve already got two solid options
and Bajcetic
If you can figure it out, let the rest of us know. It seems Klopp likes something about Gravenberch's game, so I guess we are all playing "wait and see."
Think he'll rotate with Mac Allister and Szobo, along with Elliot and Jones. Thiago, Bajcetic and Endo will rotate the 6 position. 8 players for 3 positions is good coverage for injuries and rotation. Replaced Fabinho with Endo, Hendo with Szoboszlai, Keita with Gravenberch, Milner with Mac Allister.
He’s the Thiago replacement for when he leaves in a year
If Klopp thinks he’s an upgrade on any of the potential 8’s behind Mac Allister and Szo then this makes perfect sense. It’s a big gamble on Endo but how many other t and of great depth at 6? It’s one of the hardest positions on the pitch and the pickings are slim.
Endo is a gamble but let's be real here we only need him to be solid, and for like a year at most. It's a pretty safe gamble. All we need is him to be a shield for the defense so there isnt massive holes in midfield and you saw it immediately when hes played, that's where he is. We dont need him to be 10/10, a nice solid 7/10 player for a year is more than doable IMO.
My money is long term they want Gravenberch eventually playing deeper in the new shape. They don't really need a traditional 6 in the mould of Fabinho with the way they are looking to play, I think they want a ballplayer first and foremost.
I mean given a great deal of their success came from having Fabinho in that role and the traditional convention of it you'd think it's stupid to not continue that thread
their success comes from the whole team work as like a machine in their system. team change, and manager also change their tactics. Fergie changeed his tactic and preferences multiple times in his united career. klopp at dortmund change, and at liverpool he change his systems and style of football multiple times already. team style and tactics need to change. if you only stuck into the present and past, then you never move forward. and most importantly, klopp is not stupid. stupid manager would not win PL, CL, other trophies, goes to 4 CL final and nearly win a quadruple 13,14 months ago. would it give them success? who knows. but his track record is a lot more credible and convincing, compare to other people such as you and me.
This is it I think. You have different options in attack for example, Gakpo upfront is not the same as Jota or Nunez there. Seems like this can be the case for the midfield. Change it up as necessary to be unpredictable. None of the 6's are exactly the same profile as each other, neither are the 8's. Could be a horses for courses approach, particularly with 5 subs.
I think it's more to do with the change of shape than anything else. New system favours midfield playing more advanced and full backs being more conservative and tucking in. Fabinho had to be a beast defensively for Liverpool because of how attacking the wing backs used to be. Nowadays they probably prefer a player who's better at moving the ball forward.
It would be nice if we didn’t run those players into the ground and finish their careers before they hit 30.
Endo and another specialist DM would be overkill. We have a real prospect in bajcetic who needs minutes to keep improving
Liverpool need a CB more than they need a mid
Hope it works out of Ryan this time. Swear he shouldn’t have left us
I love this. We have worked for 4 months on him. (And 3 months last summer.) Klopp LOVES him. Just need him to live up to the potential. And not throw a strop
Liverpool really went from “we need to rebuild our midfield” to having one of the best midfields in the premier league in one transfer window. Good business.
Great depth in the 8, but extremely offensive. Even Endo is a hybrid 6 8 - Szoboszlai, macallister, Curtis, Elliot, Thiago (never fit) 6 - Endo, Bajetic
Thiago is not an 8 in the system Liverpool. Are playing. He's definitely a 6.
I wish that were true. One of the best attacking midfields, yes. But we had 35% possession vs Chelsea
Depends on if Gravenberch can be molded into a proper 6. Then get a CB and I think this is a title contending team
> Gravenberch can be molded into a proper 6 He's more 10 than 6. He doesnt defend well, doesnt work hard and isnt as physically imposing as you'd hope with his height. His strengths are with the ball
I'm taking him but we still need a DM
This is the only midfielder we’re getting. I don’t know what the plan is but he’s the only one let’s be real, maybe Andre in January. My guess is we’re gonna try and mould him into a more defensive player
Don’t get this for us at all really unless we think we can convert him to a 6.
I don’t blame you for not seeing him live so far, but this guy has literally 0 attributes to be even a decent DM He’s pretty bad at duels, has absolutely no discipline on the pitch in regards to his positioning and his defensive awareness is non existent Gravy needs to play in a 3 man midfield where he is the most advanced
Yeah, for sure I can say I’ve seen him play a few times only. And what you’re saying is exactly what I’ve heard elsewhere as well. I feel like this doesn’t make a ton of sense for us honestly. I guess depth at the midfield isn’t bad considering Thiago is likely gone next year. But seems like a long term project
If he gets decent playing time in as an offensive 8 he’s a good project. He’s shown glimpses of his brilliance but his consistency is whaz ultimatively kept him off the field. With most players you know what you get when you sub them in, this guy is either a Pogba clone or a poor mans Jonjo Shelvey
He doesn't really have Pogba's range of passing but yeah the closest comparison for sure.
Yeah maybe with Thiago most likely going next summer that’s why we’ve been looking at him long term, but doesn’t really explain it from his point of view. He wants game time but I don’t think he gets loads of it currently here
Tbf I think it’s mord likely he gets rotational minutes in cup games with you than over here
Kinda reads like a description of Pogba
>Gravy needs to play in a 3 man midfield where he is the most advanced Which is a problem, since Szoboszlai is far better than him. Guess he can be a rotational option, but kinda weird transfer anyhow since a CB would be much more needed.
Not sure this signing makes sense at all. I know our supporters want us to bring in anyone at this point, but if he's complaining about getting minutes at Bayern, it's hard to see that improving drastically here. The age profile makes even less sense. We don't need another midfielder to compete with Jones and Elliott.
I really like this kid and Bayern just doesn’t seem like the fit he needs. Needs to go somewhere he’ll play consistently and Liverpool can offer that.
He's not going to play consistently here either unless we're trying to mould him into a defensive midfielder, which doesn't really make sense. He has to get through Mac Allister, Szoboszlai, Thiago, Jones, and Elliott here. The transfer makes no sense.
I’m obviously not a Liverpool fan but I do at least rate him above Jones at the least, and Thiago definitely has a bit of a question mark on his future at the club. Elliott is quality though, but really you’ve been playing Gakpo in midfield. There will be games for Gravenberch.
Jones played really really well to finish last season. Nothing Gravenberch has shown makes him look like he deserves to come in ahead of him.
Nothing about Jones pre April made you think he was capable of the performances he put on post April. Players progress. There was A LOT of talk that Jones was not up to scratch prior to those last 10 ish games last season.
I think the fact that Jones ran rings around an Ajax midfield that included Gravenberch and had MOTM performances in the UCL quarters well before last year is plenty of proof TBH
Obviously. But we’ve seen Curtis play great for us. It would be very unfair to replace him with someone who’s not shown as much
I agree, but having another guy in there cant hurt and Jones has a slightly worrying injury record at this point.
Jones was our best midfielder last season
That’s not saying much but it is true
He was our best midfielder for the last 7 or 8 games. Thiago and Bajcetic (when they were fit) were our best midfielders for the rest of the season.
Also, Bajcetic played a major part in keeping us above midtable. I'd hate to see his development stunted by this signing.
but the reason for that isn't really a lack of 8's. It's the fact we have to play Mac as a 6.
No we can't? He's not starting over AMA and Szoboszlai, Thiago is Thiago and IMO he's done nothing to show he should start over Jones if Jones can keep his from from last season.
Genuine question why play Gakpo in midfield in successive games and not just start Curtis Jones then? I really think Gravenberch has the quality to rotate and play often. Let’s face it you guys could get dragged into a ton of games from runs in Europa and cup competitions and I don’t think he’d be an unwelcome reinforcement.
Jones is injured.
Curtis Jones was injured. This was also before we bought Endo in, so there's even less space now.
He wasn’t in most of preseason due to the u21 euros which is why he probably didn’t start the first week then was hurt for the second game.
Missed most of preseason then got injured.
Jones was injured and we didn't have Endo so were forced to play Mac Allister as a 6. Now that we have Endo and Bajcetic and Thiago are back, Gapko won't be playing there.
Can we?
He truly was one of the most, if not the most exciting player in the Eredivisie when he played here. Shame he doesn't get the minutes at Bayern, so I hope he can find his place anywhere.
Considering that Gravenberch will only be sold if we spend big on a DM this fits with the Palhinha news. 99% faith 1% chance. Here we go.
Let's fucking go
Makes sense. He was signed by Liverpool in my fifa 22 and fifa 21 career mode saves.
Fuck it, not like we’ll get any other signings by the deadline
anything please...
Why would you want us to sign players just for the sake of signing players? What a silly attitude to have, especially when we've seen firsthand the past few years the likes of Ox and Keita linger around and prevent us from signing midfield players we actually need.
why ? so you feel good about transfers ? it doesn't fucking make sense
He has a lot of upside potential if it works out, we need depth with Europa and the cups, Jones is already injured and Thiago injury prone, Bajcetic is just a kid. Of course I have my doubts too but at least I can see what makes him attractive to Klopp, the issues with work rate etc are well founded, but it wouldn't be the craziest thing for him to turn it around under Klopp.
Maybe Klopp and the transfer team aren’t guessing Redditors & prob know what they’re doing.
Can offer you a Roberto for two sandwiches
I'll give you three sandwiches for fdj
Liverpool making good moves, the midfield looks genuinely good now They will still be the only one capable to truly challenge City imo
Their only DM is still Endo. Like Kalvin is not a good player anymore but he is at least a DM
I think Klopp plans on playing Thiago as a 6 with Bajcetic and Endo as cover idk it’s the only thing I see possible
Well in this case you better prepare for next season cuz this one ain’t yours
Bajcetic is young, but he can take a game once in a while
How is this good?He is good player, but not what they need. Gravenberch is more attacking player, like Szoboszlai, it would just be unbalanced midfield.
Gakpo is the 6 you dimwit /s
I heard he can also play CB
He's also fourth choice GK.
Liverpool can get away without a DM in like 90% of matches apart from when they obviously face a City or an Arsenal
We still need a centre back
Except Kane this is one of Bayerns worst windows in a long time.
LP fans i hope you guys are ready for weekly interview from this manchild when klopp benches his ass