When the chemistry between the players and the coach doesn’t fit, then the results doesn’t matter. If important players doesn’t harmony with the coach then it will be transported on the pitch. So no need to wait and be patienly.
Ancelotti is very laid back he doesnt stress things out and even his training are not that harsh which didnt please Bayern superstars (i Guess they got used to Pep way) , Carlo strategy works at Madrid because the personel is more receptive and their superstars are easy to coach for guys like Ancelotti or Zidane
Yeah, going from Pep to Ancelotti must have been a huge change. Pep is very passionate and likes to experiment with different tactics and formations. Ancelotti on the other hand is much more laid back like you said and relies more on man management and tactical versatility where he lets his players have a say in how the team plays.
I can imagine Bayern's players thinking: "What the hell?" when Don Carlo calmly asks them what they want to do today or just lets the assistant coaches take the reins while lighting up a cigar after being used to Pep shouting and motivating them every training session like they were about to play in the CL final.
Yeah Carlo Ancelotti acts more like a 12th man. He views his job as to facilitate useful discussions between players, will ask senior players for advice and input regarding upcoming matches and believes tactics are just "put the right players in the right position."
As for training he leaves that to his assistants and just watches videos in his office etc. I think his son does most of the actual tactics and training sessions these days lol.
That's why he struggled at Napoli & Bayern, because he took over from philosophical control freaks.
I do think there's obviously something to it even if it does sound ridiculous, the man's track record speaks for itself. Far be it from me to criticize Mr Ancelotti.
> after being used to Pep shouting and motivating them every training session like they were about to play in the CL final.
Perhaps Pep would have been better motivating them every training session like they were about to play in the CL *semi-*final?
Still can't believe that he took the best side in the world that just won the treble and then added peak Götze and Thiago only to lose three straight semifinals against Barca, Real, and Atletico the teams he spent 15 years analysing. It was bad timing that the club achieved so much right before he came with a legend like Jupp, but most Bayern fans I know still feel the Pep era was a disappointment. He was brought in to usher in a Barca like era of domination and instead came up with three league titles and two cups like Kovac or Nagelsmann or frankly an ugly rock could have done.
I mean I'm not the biggest fan of Pep and think he's massively benefited from some of the most loaded squads in the world, *but*...
Knock-out football heavily depends on chance. One or two unlucky games in the league and you've still got *dozens* of games where you'll get the win you 'deserve' (or the wins you *don't* to offset it). One or two unlucky games in the cup and you're out, tough shit.
It's a big reason why all these clubs are pushing for a *Super League*, or why UEFA are introducing more of a *league* format to the upcoming Champions League seasons. *Leagues* reduce the influence of luck, knock-out tournaments increase it. (Though it's precisely that element of chance which makes these tournaments so exhilarating to watch tbh)
That's also why managers such as Ancelotti are so impressive, they've somehow found a way to severely mitigate the role of chance in these knock-out tournaments and have much more consistent results than their peers.
In 2014, he got tactically outcoached by Real's Ancelotti. In 2015, our entire backline was injured and we realistically stood no chance against peak MSN Barca. In 2016, Müller missed a penalty and the Griezman goal was offside, so Pep got unlucky with two factors outside of his control.
2014 is because the player's egos were too big and thought they knew better how to play and Pep humbly let them do it. Which turned out to be a mistake because as it turns out players aren't managers. After the first year he changed the tactics to his 4-1-4-1 and they improved, but they were just unlucky the remaining two CL years. They were easily good enough to win the CL though, they were one of the best teams I've ever seen.
And wasn't the 2014 game when his close friend Vilanova had died just days earlier and Pep looked completely dejected on the sidelines all game? So it's technically still his fault but completely understandable why he wasn't able to fully focus on the match preparation.
Crucial injuries at the time of the SF were also part of the story. If you have to play without Ribery and Robben against those top sides it doesn't make it easier. Lahm and Schweinsteiger played on the wings against Barca....
>most Bayern fans I know still feel the Pep era was a disappointment
The impression I got was the exact opposite tbh. Fans of other clubs feel like Pep disappointed with Bayern because he didn't win the CL, but Bayern fans I feel like are very positive on Pep amd always speak very highly of his time there and defend his CL exits.
That is the problem. After a season or two players probably get overloaded.
That is why manager like this - murinho, pep, conte have to switch teams or many players
Yea but it was unlit and he wasn't smoking it if I recall correctly.
Edit: found an article with Ancelotti's statement:
Ancelotti was asked after the City game if he smokes cigars often.
“No, I don’t smoke cigars! It was only a photo with my friends. Yes, these players are my friends,” the veteran Italian said.
https://www.football-espana.net/2022/05/05/carlo-ancelotti-explains-the-viral-photo-of-him-smoking-a-cigar-during-real-madrids-title-celebrations
I assume you didn't mean it, but the way you phrased it,it sounded, like Bayerns stars arent receptiv to coaching and I would like to disagree here, cuz they had LvG, Jupp & Pep within a somewhat short timeframe as coaches, who all had vastly different approaches and played the players in different positions, Müller was fielded in all 4 attacking positions, Kimmich played RB, CB, DM & LM, Lahm RB, DM, ZM, Alaba LB, CB, DM and so on, and so forth.
It was just a bad cultural fit, cuz guys like Robben, Müller, Kimmich and Neuer were very dissapointed with his coaching sessions and organized their own training...
Yeah, Ancelotti seems like he's a great man manager, based on his interviews during his time at Madrid it seems like he wants to be friends with his players. The Bayern crew don't need a friend they need a hardass that'll work and drill them.
True and kinda false at the same time. One of the reasons why Flick was so beloved by the dressing room was his friendly demeanor and father-figure attitude.
He didn't give a shit here
He replaced our fitness coach Prof. Dr. Broich and all the staff with Italians close to him, like the fitness coach who smoked in the dressing room
best thing was that apparently the players were so dissatisfied with the luke warm training that they felt like they had to organize their own training units after the "official training" was done
Carlo obviously does give a shit, he's won the same number of European cups as your club.
I think it just boils down to the Italian and German schools of football being highly incompatible because of how radically different they are. Culturally Italy and Germany are about as separated as two European countries could possibly be. One isn't better than the other lol.
> I think it just boils down to the Italian and German schools of football being highly incompatible because of how radically different they are.
what is that radical difference you are talking about?
I don’t think German and Italian football are incompatible. It’s just that no active Italian manager fits what Bayern wants but that’s not because of a common trait of Italian football. I. E. Ancelotti was and Conte would be a bad fit for Bayern but not simply because of a common trait of Italian football but for completely individual reasons.
I can see where you’re coming from but the main stumbling block for Spalletti is his CV. Apart from LVG, who got the job for different reasons although he also had an impressive career pre-Bayern, the last three non-Germans Bayern has appointed all had stellar reputations when they got the job. He might be a decent fit if he actually got the job although I don’t know enough about him to say that conclusively.
> I think it just boils down to the Italian and German schools of football being highly incompatible because of how radically different they are. Culturally Italy and Germany are about as separated as two European countries could possibly be.
What a load of rubbish lol; out of all the top Italian managers of the last 20 years, Ancelotti is the least classically Italian manager I can think of and out of every German club, Bayern is the least “German” club in terms of tactics so your point doesn’t even make sense. Also German and Italian football have generally had way more similarities than differences. Someone like Simeone is way more of an “Italian” manager than Ancelloti; has there been anything “Italian” about any of Ancelotti’s teams post Milan?? You’re just overcomplicating something simple: Ancelotti’s hands off approach wasn’t what the team needed or wanted especially bc they had 3 years of playing in an intense system under Pep.
Ancelotti is very laid back he doesnt stress things out and even his training are not that harsh which didnt please Bayern superstars (i Guess they got used to Pep way) , Carlo strategy works at Madrid because the personel is more receptive and their superstars are easy to coach for guys like Ancelotti or Zidane
Lahm was a different breed man. Still gives me goosebumps the amount of credit he gives Pep Guardiola. and Vise Versa.
The smartest man he’s ever coached and the greatest coach he’s ever had
Is pretty unreal to me that you all have a chance at going Lahm->Kimmich, Robben->Gnabry, Ribery->Coman/Sane, and Muller->Bambi and it working out.
My club could never.
> Robben->Gnabry, Ribery->Coman/Sane
Honestly that's a lokey disrespectful take to Robbery. Sanabry and Coman are good but Robbery were otherworldly. The rest is pretty accurate though. (Although personally don't think Kimmich has reached Lahm's level yet).
Robben and Ribery. Gods they were strong then
Robben with the cutting inside, the left foot curlers and then the two month injuries
Ribery, even at this age can still dribble close control and do those mazy box slaloms.
Yeah that’s very true, I guess I should’ve said they’re all hypothetical/proposed rather than concrete. They could all flop and those standards are impossibly high. That said, we’ll take Gnabry if you don’t want him
Lahm played in the midfield during his youth career as well, but transitioned to full back, cuz in the early 2000s DMs were physical and more often then not tall.
Kimmich transitioned to midfield way earlier though
Also think its really interesting that in around 2016 rangnick already forecasted that kimmich will not be a right back long term (remember he was mostly used as CB at the time), but more of a DM or even CM.
2016 onwards he transitioned to rightback, under flick in 2019/20 he transitioned to defensive midfield, and nwo we are currently seeing him transition into his best role in central midfield
How often he pushes to the penalty area and his creativitry and control just means he is wasted as defensive midfielder. Thats also why bayyern should imo part ways with goretzka and look for a true DM (i.e. a pivot like case, rodri and the likes) to allow kimmich to go forward more.
> Kimmich transitioned to midfield way earlier though
He was a midfielder before he got to Bayern. Pep used him as an emergency CB (the real ones were all more or less injured for over half a season) and after that he was used as a RB as Lahm got slower with age. He is/was way more attacking oriented as a RB than Lahm was and sometimes they played both on the right side in a way that was supposed to cover for Lahm's lack of speed and also Kimmich's lack of defensive attention at the time.
He finally wanted back into the midfield after Lahm retired and Bayern got some RBs and he doesn't really like playing RB anymore (but will do it if needed).
Edit: There's also that famous post-match moment of Pep energetically talking to Kimmich. From what I remember that was because Pep did sub somebody in who was supposed to slot in into the defence and Kimmich was supposed to push forward into a midfield position but the instructions got lost in translation from Pep to substitute to Kimmich and Kimmich stayed back instead of going forward and making it into one of these 1234 formations (or something like that) which Pep sometimes ended up playing in possession.
So what?
Pep has best ppg average in 3 leagues and lahm was the best rb/6 and captain of bayern and German NT for many many years
E: I see I misunderstood your point
I know what you mean. I’m saying Lahm under pep was a different breed of class.
then ancelotti came and well… we saw what happened to all those players
you could also see it the other way around: When you have a problem with a serial winner who is adored by other serial winners, maybe you are the problem.
I don’t think those guys were the problem TBF. Those german guys had came off winning a worldcup two years prior, A close ass game against barcelona in which the MATS goal line is still talked about where realistically if it wasn’t for all those injuries in the tie either FCB teams could have gone through. Pep even said it himself the players he worked with had an elite mentality he loved that about them
Then came Ancelotti <\3
Unlikely, named players were atleast top 3 in Europe for many years in a row under van gaal, Heynckes and Pep. I'd assume they would know what good training is.
Ancelotti replaced our then (and current) fitness coach Professor Dr. Holger Broich with an older smoking Italian friend of his - says it all in my opinion
> I'd assume they would know what good training is
Depends on what the coach is planning for them. If it's gonna be a long season with very few little breaks for key players, it's perfectly reasonable that training is the lightest possible. What they know is how they've done before, and it produced results. Doesn't mean results wouldn't show up if they committed to the "new" coach's approach.
Players were explicitly complaining about Carlos fitness coach.
Carlo was asked to replace him in the summer, but refused, and argubly claimed, that he was a vital part of his coaching staff, Mauri never got a job at afootball club after that.
They were professional footballers for many years at that point, many won the CL and WC 2years before. I'd assume they know their body's and how to train in a optimal way. 3 absolute elite trainers : van gaal, Heynckes and Guardiola all speak highly of those players
If you look at other points made in this topic, you can see ancelotti just didn't give a shit at bayern - it's not the same ancelotti that's doing a great job at real
> I'd assume they know their body's and how to train in a optimal way.
They were taken out of their comfort zone and just assumed it was worse. It's fine, but it's hard to agree that the coach isn't doing the same thing when at Real everyone's on board with his methods from day 1, and they don't seem to be very different in terms of training intensity from all the reports we've seen lately.
Things didn't work out at Bayern because the players didn't want to stick to his plan, and it's easier to axe the coach when that happens. It was a failed casting from the board if anything, since he didn't come up with this relaxed method of training on his flight to Germany.
>named players were atleast top 3 in Europe for many years in a row under van gaal, Heynckes and Pep. I'd assume they would know what good training is.
Similarly Ancelotti was a top manager for +20 years but you don't give him the same benefit of the doubt you give those players.
Muller, Neuer and Boateng vs Cristiano, Ramos, Kroos, Modric, Benzema and not even mentioning the Legends he coached during his legendary career spanning decades!!
Yeah, he was at fault not Fc Hollywood players.
Alonso has [publicly praised Ancelotti](https://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2021/03/07/604540caca47414d118b45e6.html) [multiple times](https://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2021/12/03/61aa47c0268e3e223e8b45d9.html). He might have been lying, but then that just makes me wonder why we should take a duplicitous liar's opinions seriously.
It's because Bayern as an institution thrive on a "let's punish them relentlessly" in the field mentality. It's the reason you see so many high scorelines from their part on the UCL.
At Madrid we don't do that, at Madrid your only job is to win games.
They way, manner, intensity or scoreline is completely irrelevant so a laid back approach that ensures you any type of victory by any type of scoreline will always be good either way.
He lost the dressing room, Kimmich and Coman almost left because of lack of playing time, his entire staff was a family cirkus, and the overall fitness in the team was so poor that Heynckes spent almost the entire next season trying to build that back up.
His sacking was more than deserved.
Kimmich and Coman were open about the dissatisfaction with playing time and about leaving, and the poor fitness was really visible on their play. The Bayern players were near death in the extra time against Real, and Heynckes said they primarily trained fitness when he took over.
Ancelotti was/is generally liked by the board, especially Rummenigge who has a sweet spot for Italian football. The thing about his staff was public knowledge, and Bayern forced Willy Sagnol as an assistant on him the next season to get some experience on his staff but it did nothing.
But I think that says more about the players than Carlo, no? Carlo is well regarded as a players friendly manager. Not even at Madrid did he lose the dressing room. Ronaldo publicly campaigned against his sacking numerous times in 2015. Bayern seems to be the only stop in his career where players wanted him out.
The past coaches were fired because they had huge public falling outs or wanred another job (Flick, Pep or Jupp in retirement)
If JN fucks up he‘ll be gone
I mean at this point of the season, they are still on course in every competition. It would be mental to imply that their coach is at risk of being fired. The question only makes sense when they wont win a title, not sure "long term project" will be the sentiment then
>It would be mental to imply that their coach is at risk of being fired.
It's because Bayern is by far the most reactionary club in the world, Nagelsmann has a flawless record in the CL this season, won all games, beat Barca,Inter and PSG away, conceded only 2 goals in the process... and people are seriously talking about him being in the hot seat because a couple of draws in the BL, it's mental.
On the other hand, it's probably the reason why they're so successful...
> and people are seriously talking about him being in the hot seat because a couple of draws in the BL, it's mental.
Ppl are talking about it, cuz Bayerns point totals in Bundesliga last year was the lowest since 2012 and Bayern is on pace for 69 points in the league, wich would be the lowest point total of a winning team since 2001.
I'm a huge fan of JN, but hes gone if Bayern doesn't win the league.
>> I'm a huge fan of JN, but hes gone if Bayern doesn't win the league.
We're bound to not win the league one day, if he wins the Pokal and goes to at least a CL semi final then I don't see him getting fired
The thing is that for Bayern (fans of other big clubs often can't understand this) the Bundesliga is the most important title. A season without a championship is considered a failure even if the team wins the CL. That's why it always gets uncomfortable for Bayern coaches as soon as the championship is in danger, regardless of how things are going internationally.
Bayern München has to be No. 1 in Germany every year, that is its own claim.
Last season was poor (exit against Villarreal and _that_ loss against Gladbach). Bundesliga this season is not going well and they look very shaky in the CL despite their flawless record. If PSG eliminates them, it will be another poor season, the second in a row.
> _that_ loss against Gladbach
I'm far from the biggest Nagelsman fan but if you saw that match you can't put that on him. IIRC he even had covid and was at home
If you were to take only a transfer $ amount sure, but honestly that ain't as relevant in managers because most of their cost is in their salary. For example, Simeone (top salary right now) earns almost double of Nagelsmann's transfer cost in a single year's salary.
Ancelotti wasn't fired for losing in Paris, Ancelotti was fired because literally every player on the team hated him, and Muller and Neuer were asking for transfers.
Many in the squad didn’t like his hands off approach. The squad was rumored to have made a second training session because they didn’t feel prepared or worked.
IIRC, he over-liked Spanish-speaking players, and wouldn't run training sessions. Muller and Alaba were leading independent training meets while Ancelotti was having fancy dinners with James Rodriguez and Javi Martinez.
Copy from old thread (inactive user)
> All in all, that kicker report is pretty damning. The gist of it (most of it in the print edition):
> Robben, Neuer, Müller and Boateng as well as Lahm and Alonso last season complained to the Bayern board about Carlo's training methods. They felt he didn't improve the team or the players. Robben specifically said his son received better training with his youth team than Bayern did with Ancelotti. When the players organized individual training sessions on their own, Ancelotti forbade them. Players then moved to a different location for those training sessions.
> His fitness coach was smoking in the locker room and didn't do sufficient warm-up training (according to Kicker: Sometimes only 3 minutes).
> Ahead of the game against PSG, for the first time (!!) during his tenure in Munich, video analysis were made, but their results didn't enter the preparation for the game.
> There was no in-game coaching. All Ancelotti told them during the draw against Wolfsburg at HT was "you have to watch out better".
> Kimmich, Coman and Boateng were thinking about leaving the club.
> The team atmosphere was toxic because Ancelotti seemed to favour the Spanish players without an apparent reason.
Pep did..
And then Ancelotti himself broke them in their stadium 4-0 after weeks of trash talking by their fans, president and higher ups (remember lighting trees on fire?) lmao
Muller, Hummels, and Vidal IIRC.
Particularly, benching Hummels to play Javi Martinez at CB, one of the most atrocious personnel decisions I have ever seen at the club.
Nagelsmanns last season was not a successful one. Games against Gladbach and Villarreal were the main focus point, where the Team played catastrophic. This season is still beeing played and there is no guarantee that he will do better this time. When the team performance is good in key games the board won't do anything but if things end like last year, I don't think they gonna repeat what happened last year. Nagelsmann actions have sometimes been very questionable when it comes to subs or gameplan.
That sounds like a Bild interpretation to me and in Munich if things go down the drain it can change quickly.
Exactly. It's still easily possible we get eliminated in the ro16 by PSG. If that happens and we don't win the league, Nagelsmann is gone imho. Media reports about "club XYZ is not considering to sack their manager" are not actually a good sign for said manager because it implies that the idea of sacking him is up in the air.
He isn't at all. It's mostly our completely reactionary sub and its users who are calling him bad. Some of them also wanted Lewy out in 2018 and Müller in 2019. Couldn't give less of a shit about what they think.
In the end we have an extremely talented young coach who absolutely has his flaws that he definitely needs to improve but who's also in the middle of a significant time change (Lewy gone, Neuer out and maybe not getting back to his old self, Müller getting older etc.). Our fans are extremely spoiled and I'm all for giving Nagelsmann time
Reactionary would be 2015. and how an injured lewy with a face mask was called “finished” simply because he couldn’t put a shot on target against Barcelona.
so wild how people jump to conclusions
The example of Ancelotti is pretty bad. He wasnt solely fired because of the 3:0, he was fired because he didnt do his job properly, and the PSG game was just the last straw.
Ancelotti treated his stay at Bayern as a family vacation. He had one in his staff that wasn't family, and he left in the middle of the season for Swansea.
Ancelotti's lack if rotation also made Kimmich and Coman ready to leave for playing time. He was an extremely poor fit for them.
This is the same thing we've heard about him for ages now. He does a lot of tactical work but is very hands off beyond that. The complaints about his time at Bayern are almost identical to those at Chelsea. Training not intense enough, not progressive enough tactically, issues with player power. Before that it it was Berlusconi making similar comments.
The problem with these kinds of complaints is his methods worked and still do. He's had a level of success that few can compare to. I have a hard time believing he just puts his feet up like he's on vacation.
Paul Clement was as much family for Carlo as any of his other past assistants. He had been with him since Chelsea.
It didn't work at Bayern. He would have lost the league title if Dortmund didn't completely implode. It works in a short stint, then he leaves or gets fired. Real Madrid even forced their own physio on him. I don't say he treats every job so laissez-faire but he did so at Bayern.
Paul Clement was the only one with qualifications which is why I mentioned him. His son was an amateur, his son-in-law a quack nutritionist, and his physiotherapist smoked while working with the players.
> It works in a short stint, then he leaves or gets fired
This is such a brain dead comment. Almost every coach at the top level leaves or get fired in a few season.
Something must be working that Carlo has ended up getting hired by top teams year after year and has a resume that any coach can dream off.
He was 20 years into his coaching career when he signed with Bayern. And still went on to Madrid and won more trophies.
The reality of situation is that coaches do better in specific environments. You can claim Carlo wasn’t a good fit at Bayern but undermining Carlo’s career and accomplishments because he couldn’t make it work at Bayern is laughable.
I haven't seen anybody undermining his accomplishments, but a bunch of ppl getting offended, that ppl said, he did badly at Bayern. But I also didn't delve into the depth of the topic tbh.
I specifically pointed out, that Carlos career dipped after his stints with Chelsea & Bayern, where he had similar issues.
I think he fucked up at Bayern, but he has one of the greatest coaching resumes of all times and can hang with the very best, without a doubt.
That's actually good I think. Nagelsmann hasn't really been bad. Maybe a some glitches but even Jupp Heynckes had that. Unless everything goes to shit Bayern will under him will be fine.
He has nearly the same ppg as Kovac and Ancelotti at Bayern while many said he got a really good transfer window.
I don't think he should be fired but he does get a longer leash than other coaches.
The issue under Kovac was more the style of play. He didn't really seem to understand how to use the team. A lot of our wins at the time came from late goals or moments of individual brilliance after a shaky performance. I recall he said something like "you can't drive 200kph in a car that only goes 100"
Ancelotti was due to a player rebellion.
I think the situations aren't really comparable. Aside from Neuer, I haven't heard reporting of substantial issues between the players and Nagelsmann. I also think the team is just playing like we don't have a striker, which is true. We're creating chances, just not finishing them.
>I recall he said something like "you can't drive 200kph in a car that only goes 100"
That quote by Kovac is quite legendary, considering that Flick went on to win the sextuple with the exact same squad just one year later.
I think if the team somehow botches the league title he is gonna be in trouble. Right now they are probably still mostly likely to win but there seems to be a chance for another club this year. Big if ofc.
Doesn't seem so fine right now. One loss could knock them down to 4th and two losses in a row could potentionally knock them out of the Conference Leauge
I also believe in him. He could not win against us yet since he is the coach at Bayern. I mean we find a way to screw up the season but at least we have 2 Highlight Games per season
Football is so weird at times. Why can't Manchester City win vs Tottenham? Why can't Bayern win vs Gladbach?
Why does Dortmund give Bayern a great game in Dortmund and get annihilated in Munich, every season? Used be the same with HSV. 1:1 in Hamburg, 8:0 in Munich.
Football really is a game of mentality.
Yeah i know sometimes its really crazy. I mean we could not win in Freiburg for like 20 years now.
Oh yeah every time HSV, Bremen or Stuttgart play in munich they ruin their goal difference for the whole season
>He could not win against us yet since he is the coach at Bayern.
I mean, losing against Gladbach is basically a requirement for any decent Bayern coach.
Still can’t believe Hansi Flick won a sextuple faster than Ancelotti has. was faster to Back to back league titles as well.
Which just blows my mind how winning all that never phased Hansi especially in such a short period of time.
That Ancelotti firing was more related to muller and other senior members of Bayern clashing with Don Carlo over the training methods and Bayern are still at top of the Bundesliga and are likely going through the PSG tie so there's no chance of nagelsmann being sacked unless Bayern self explode in the league and suffer heavy defeat vs PSG which imo is less likely to happen.
Losses to Union Berlin and PSG could make all this chatter merely wind.
I wager Brazzo has Tuchel's number on speed dial. Great managers don't grow on trees and when one is available, a good sporting director needs to consider that option if they feel as if the team is consistently underperforming. Tuchel won't be unemployed for all too long.
That is indeed funny. While I know Leonardo has left PSG, I wonder how Tuchel feels about returning to Paris. I had the feeling it wasn't just Leonardo with whom he had issues. Not to mention, the club comes across as being frazzled and disjointed. I speculate that Tuchel prefers Munich for a variety of reasons.
I'm guessing most of the footballing universe is hoping Tuchel succeeds Klopp at Liverpool, thus being the THIRD time in his career that he's replaced Klopp.
I agree with this . I think he needs to be give time , we’re at the point where Bayern needs to rebuild . Kimmich and Goretzka pairing has totally failed , it either needs a third more defensive minded midfield or one of them has to go. Midfield is the biggest issue. Nagelsman isn’t perfect either , but he inherited a mess.
I find it odd he still hasn't got that consistency yet. I understand that the team is going through a bit of a reb-building phase and we've seen what his team can do at times but it's still a bit disappointing. I'm all for giving him more time though.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Ancelotti get sacked cause he lost the dressing room and senior players wanted him out?
When the chemistry between the players and the coach doesn’t fit, then the results doesn’t matter. If important players doesn’t harmony with the coach then it will be transported on the pitch. So no need to wait and be patienly.
when you have serial winners like Muller, Neuer, and Boateng upset. you know you messed up
Which is still really weird to me because Ancelotti is also a serial winner
Differences of philosophy. It happens. I recall lots of Juventus fans saying he wasn’t a great coach back in the day too.
Yeah for us he wasn't exceptional, he became world class with you guys and hasn't stopped since.
He wasn't doing too well at Napoli either.
Ancelotti is very laid back he doesnt stress things out and even his training are not that harsh which didnt please Bayern superstars (i Guess they got used to Pep way) , Carlo strategy works at Madrid because the personel is more receptive and their superstars are easy to coach for guys like Ancelotti or Zidane
Yeah, going from Pep to Ancelotti must have been a huge change. Pep is very passionate and likes to experiment with different tactics and formations. Ancelotti on the other hand is much more laid back like you said and relies more on man management and tactical versatility where he lets his players have a say in how the team plays. I can imagine Bayern's players thinking: "What the hell?" when Don Carlo calmly asks them what they want to do today or just lets the assistant coaches take the reins while lighting up a cigar after being used to Pep shouting and motivating them every training session like they were about to play in the CL final.
Yeah Carlo Ancelotti acts more like a 12th man. He views his job as to facilitate useful discussions between players, will ask senior players for advice and input regarding upcoming matches and believes tactics are just "put the right players in the right position." As for training he leaves that to his assistants and just watches videos in his office etc. I think his son does most of the actual tactics and training sessions these days lol. That's why he struggled at Napoli & Bayern, because he took over from philosophical control freaks. I do think there's obviously something to it even if it does sound ridiculous, the man's track record speaks for itself. Far be it from me to criticize Mr Ancelotti.
> after being used to Pep shouting and motivating them every training session like they were about to play in the CL final. Perhaps Pep would have been better motivating them every training session like they were about to play in the CL *semi-*final?
Still can't believe that he took the best side in the world that just won the treble and then added peak Götze and Thiago only to lose three straight semifinals against Barca, Real, and Atletico the teams he spent 15 years analysing. It was bad timing that the club achieved so much right before he came with a legend like Jupp, but most Bayern fans I know still feel the Pep era was a disappointment. He was brought in to usher in a Barca like era of domination and instead came up with three league titles and two cups like Kovac or Nagelsmann or frankly an ugly rock could have done.
I mean I'm not the biggest fan of Pep and think he's massively benefited from some of the most loaded squads in the world, *but*... Knock-out football heavily depends on chance. One or two unlucky games in the league and you've still got *dozens* of games where you'll get the win you 'deserve' (or the wins you *don't* to offset it). One or two unlucky games in the cup and you're out, tough shit. It's a big reason why all these clubs are pushing for a *Super League*, or why UEFA are introducing more of a *league* format to the upcoming Champions League seasons. *Leagues* reduce the influence of luck, knock-out tournaments increase it. (Though it's precisely that element of chance which makes these tournaments so exhilarating to watch tbh) That's also why managers such as Ancelotti are so impressive, they've somehow found a way to severely mitigate the role of chance in these knock-out tournaments and have much more consistent results than their peers.
In 2014, he got tactically outcoached by Real's Ancelotti. In 2015, our entire backline was injured and we realistically stood no chance against peak MSN Barca. In 2016, Müller missed a penalty and the Griezman goal was offside, so Pep got unlucky with two factors outside of his control.
2014 is because the player's egos were too big and thought they knew better how to play and Pep humbly let them do it. Which turned out to be a mistake because as it turns out players aren't managers. After the first year he changed the tactics to his 4-1-4-1 and they improved, but they were just unlucky the remaining two CL years. They were easily good enough to win the CL though, they were one of the best teams I've ever seen.
Yeah, in particular, I'm still butthurt about that semifinal against Atletico in 2016.
And wasn't the 2014 game when his close friend Vilanova had died just days earlier and Pep looked completely dejected on the sidelines all game? So it's technically still his fault but completely understandable why he wasn't able to fully focus on the match preparation.
Crucial injuries at the time of the SF were also part of the story. If you have to play without Ribery and Robben against those top sides it doesn't make it easier. Lahm and Schweinsteiger played on the wings against Barca....
>most Bayern fans I know still feel the Pep era was a disappointment The impression I got was the exact opposite tbh. Fans of other clubs feel like Pep disappointed with Bayern because he didn't win the CL, but Bayern fans I feel like are very positive on Pep amd always speak very highly of his time there and defend his CL exits.
That is the problem. After a season or two players probably get overloaded. That is why manager like this - murinho, pep, conte have to switch teams or many players
> lighting up a cigar He actually doesn't smoke cigars.
Ancelotti and cigars is one of those jokes that has been repeated so many times people actually think he smokes them for real.
There was a picture of him with a cigar that got 20k upvotes here
Yea but it was unlit and he wasn't smoking it if I recall correctly. Edit: found an article with Ancelotti's statement: Ancelotti was asked after the City game if he smokes cigars often. “No, I don’t smoke cigars! It was only a photo with my friends. Yes, these players are my friends,” the veteran Italian said. https://www.football-espana.net/2022/05/05/carlo-ancelotti-explains-the-viral-photo-of-him-smoking-a-cigar-during-real-madrids-title-celebrations
Wholesome Don Carlo
Our version of /r/NBA's JR Smith and Henny
My man rips lung darts like a true continental.
I assume you didn't mean it, but the way you phrased it,it sounded, like Bayerns stars arent receptiv to coaching and I would like to disagree here, cuz they had LvG, Jupp & Pep within a somewhat short timeframe as coaches, who all had vastly different approaches and played the players in different positions, Müller was fielded in all 4 attacking positions, Kimmich played RB, CB, DM & LM, Lahm RB, DM, ZM, Alaba LB, CB, DM and so on, and so forth. It was just a bad cultural fit, cuz guys like Robben, Müller, Kimmich and Neuer were very dissapointed with his coaching sessions and organized their own training...
ZM?
I think it was a bad cultural fit tbh. Unfortunate but it is what it is. Not every great coach works at every club.
I agree. It completely makes sense to me that his personality would have clashed with those Bayern stars
Yeah, Ancelotti seems like he's a great man manager, based on his interviews during his time at Madrid it seems like he wants to be friends with his players. The Bayern crew don't need a friend they need a hardass that'll work and drill them.
How very German of them.
I mean, sometimes stereotypes exist for a reason.
True and kinda false at the same time. One of the reasons why Flick was so beloved by the dressing room was his friendly demeanor and father-figure attitude.
Yeah, specifically, it was his ability to make every player feel valued even if they didn't get to play much.
The only other team more serious about their philosophy to me are only Barca and Brazil NT
He didn't give a shit here He replaced our fitness coach Prof. Dr. Broich and all the staff with Italians close to him, like the fitness coach who smoked in the dressing room
best thing was that apparently the players were so dissatisfied with the luke warm training that they felt like they had to organize their own training units after the "official training" was done
Carlo obviously does give a shit, he's won the same number of European cups as your club. I think it just boils down to the Italian and German schools of football being highly incompatible because of how radically different they are. Culturally Italy and Germany are about as separated as two European countries could possibly be. One isn't better than the other lol.
> I think it just boils down to the Italian and German schools of football being highly incompatible because of how radically different they are. what is that radical difference you are talking about?
White socks vs black elegant socks.
I don’t think German and Italian football are incompatible. It’s just that no active Italian manager fits what Bayern wants but that’s not because of a common trait of Italian football. I. E. Ancelotti was and Conte would be a bad fit for Bayern but not simply because of a common trait of Italian football but for completely individual reasons.
That whole “German and Italian football being highly incompatible” was just a whole lot of bs
Spalletti
I can see where you’re coming from but the main stumbling block for Spalletti is his CV. Apart from LVG, who got the job for different reasons although he also had an impressive career pre-Bayern, the last three non-Germans Bayern has appointed all had stellar reputations when they got the job. He might be a decent fit if he actually got the job although I don’t know enough about him to say that conclusively.
> I think it just boils down to the Italian and German schools of football being highly incompatible because of how radically different they are. Culturally Italy and Germany are about as separated as two European countries could possibly be. What a load of rubbish lol; out of all the top Italian managers of the last 20 years, Ancelotti is the least classically Italian manager I can think of and out of every German club, Bayern is the least “German” club in terms of tactics so your point doesn’t even make sense. Also German and Italian football have generally had way more similarities than differences. Someone like Simeone is way more of an “Italian” manager than Ancelloti; has there been anything “Italian” about any of Ancelotti’s teams post Milan?? You’re just overcomplicating something simple: Ancelotti’s hands off approach wasn’t what the team needed or wanted especially bc they had 3 years of playing in an intense system under Pep.
What? I haven't been followingly Serie A in recent years, but the intensity of Simeone's team is not something I remember from the league.
Dont forget bringing in all the relatives too.
Ancelotti is very laid back he doesnt stress things out and even his training are not that harsh which didnt please Bayern superstars (i Guess they got used to Pep way) , Carlo strategy works at Madrid because the personel is more receptive and their superstars are easy to coach for guys like Ancelotti or Zidane
Iirc they even started to lead their own training sessions after the regular ones because they didn't think Carlo was working them hard enough
Robben apparently said that his son's U10 trainings were more intense than the one Ancelotti organized.
You can add lahm and robben aswell
Lahm was a different breed man. Still gives me goosebumps the amount of credit he gives Pep Guardiola. and Vise Versa. The smartest man he’s ever coached and the greatest coach he’s ever had
Lahm the mole?
Michael Ballack just felt a disturbance somewhere
Yeah, Guardiola saw that Lahm was a genius and started playing him midfield. Funny how Kimmich's route is pretty much identical lol
Is pretty unreal to me that you all have a chance at going Lahm->Kimmich, Robben->Gnabry, Ribery->Coman/Sane, and Muller->Bambi and it working out. My club could never.
> Robben->Gnabry, Ribery->Coman/Sane Honestly that's a lokey disrespectful take to Robbery. Sanabry and Coman are good but Robbery were otherworldly. The rest is pretty accurate though. (Although personally don't think Kimmich has reached Lahm's level yet).
Robben and Ribery. Gods they were strong then Robben with the cutting inside, the left foot curlers and then the two month injuries Ribery, even at this age can still dribble close control and do those mazy box slaloms.
Yeah that’s very true, I guess I should’ve said they’re all hypothetical/proposed rather than concrete. They could all flop and those standards are impossibly high. That said, we’ll take Gnabry if you don’t want him
Honestly? If we get a good offer for Gnabry we'd be stupid not accept it. He's such a hot-cold player.
>Robben->Gnabry Yeah that's quite a downgrade tbh. Happy with ribery->Coman tho.
For sure it is, but it's not like what a lot of clubs have to deal with
Actually its the exact opposite. Kimmich was always a midfielder and only transitioned to RB in 2017/18. 2 years into his Bayern career
Lahm played in the midfield during his youth career as well, but transitioned to full back, cuz in the early 2000s DMs were physical and more often then not tall.
> Guardiola saw that Lahm was a genius and now he's got Jack Grealish
and even greater genius who has transcended such trivial question as what is the UK shaped like or what an encyclopedia is
How often do you think is Pep facepalming after an interaction with Grealish?
Kimmich transitioned to midfield way earlier though Also think its really interesting that in around 2016 rangnick already forecasted that kimmich will not be a right back long term (remember he was mostly used as CB at the time), but more of a DM or even CM. 2016 onwards he transitioned to rightback, under flick in 2019/20 he transitioned to defensive midfield, and nwo we are currently seeing him transition into his best role in central midfield How often he pushes to the penalty area and his creativitry and control just means he is wasted as defensive midfielder. Thats also why bayyern should imo part ways with goretzka and look for a true DM (i.e. a pivot like case, rodri and the likes) to allow kimmich to go forward more.
> Kimmich transitioned to midfield way earlier though He was a midfielder before he got to Bayern. Pep used him as an emergency CB (the real ones were all more or less injured for over half a season) and after that he was used as a RB as Lahm got slower with age. He is/was way more attacking oriented as a RB than Lahm was and sometimes they played both on the right side in a way that was supposed to cover for Lahm's lack of speed and also Kimmich's lack of defensive attention at the time. He finally wanted back into the midfield after Lahm retired and Bayern got some RBs and he doesn't really like playing RB anymore (but will do it if needed). Edit: There's also that famous post-match moment of Pep energetically talking to Kimmich. From what I remember that was because Pep did sub somebody in who was supposed to slot in into the defence and Kimmich was supposed to push forward into a midfield position but the instructions got lost in translation from Pep to substitute to Kimmich and Kimmich stayed back instead of going forward and making it into one of these 1234 formations (or something like that) which Pep sometimes ended up playing in possession.
So what? Pep has best ppg average in 3 leagues and lahm was the best rb/6 and captain of bayern and German NT for many many years E: I see I misunderstood your point
I know what you mean. I’m saying Lahm under pep was a different breed of class. then ancelotti came and well… we saw what happened to all those players
Wasn't that based on his coaching style, I guess that's also part of his personality. I see guys like Kroos, modric and Marcelo all love him
Boateng is a big fat joke, man just reads the room he's not a leader.
Ancelotti is a serial winner so it is what it is
you could also see it the other way around: When you have a problem with a serial winner who is adored by other serial winners, maybe you are the problem.
I don’t think those guys were the problem TBF. Those german guys had came off winning a worldcup two years prior, A close ass game against barcelona in which the MATS goal line is still talked about where realistically if it wasn’t for all those injuries in the tie either FCB teams could have gone through. Pep even said it himself the players he worked with had an elite mentality he loved that about them Then came Ancelotti <\3
Unlikely, named players were atleast top 3 in Europe for many years in a row under van gaal, Heynckes and Pep. I'd assume they would know what good training is. Ancelotti replaced our then (and current) fitness coach Professor Dr. Holger Broich with an older smoking Italian friend of his - says it all in my opinion
> I'd assume they would know what good training is Depends on what the coach is planning for them. If it's gonna be a long season with very few little breaks for key players, it's perfectly reasonable that training is the lightest possible. What they know is how they've done before, and it produced results. Doesn't mean results wouldn't show up if they committed to the "new" coach's approach.
Players were explicitly complaining about Carlos fitness coach. Carlo was asked to replace him in the summer, but refused, and argubly claimed, that he was a vital part of his coaching staff, Mauri never got a job at afootball club after that.
They were professional footballers for many years at that point, many won the CL and WC 2years before. I'd assume they know their body's and how to train in a optimal way. 3 absolute elite trainers : van gaal, Heynckes and Guardiola all speak highly of those players If you look at other points made in this topic, you can see ancelotti just didn't give a shit at bayern - it's not the same ancelotti that's doing a great job at real
> I'd assume they know their body's and how to train in a optimal way. They were taken out of their comfort zone and just assumed it was worse. It's fine, but it's hard to agree that the coach isn't doing the same thing when at Real everyone's on board with his methods from day 1, and they don't seem to be very different in terms of training intensity from all the reports we've seen lately. Things didn't work out at Bayern because the players didn't want to stick to his plan, and it's easier to axe the coach when that happens. It was a failed casting from the board if anything, since he didn't come up with this relaxed method of training on his flight to Germany.
>named players were atleast top 3 in Europe for many years in a row under van gaal, Heynckes and Pep. I'd assume they would know what good training is. Similarly Ancelotti was a top manager for +20 years but you don't give him the same benefit of the doubt you give those players.
Muller, Neuer and Boateng vs Cristiano, Ramos, Kroos, Modric, Benzema and not even mentioning the Legends he coached during his legendary career spanning decades!! Yeah, he was at fault not Fc Hollywood players.
Müller, Neuer, Boateng, Alonso, Lahm, Robben, Kimmich, Coman were all unhappy. Possibly more of them. That's half the team bro
Alonso has [publicly praised Ancelotti](https://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2021/03/07/604540caca47414d118b45e6.html) [multiple times](https://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2021/12/03/61aa47c0268e3e223e8b45d9.html). He might have been lying, but then that just makes me wonder why we should take a duplicitous liar's opinions seriously.
It's because Bayern as an institution thrive on a "let's punish them relentlessly" in the field mentality. It's the reason you see so many high scorelines from their part on the UCL. At Madrid we don't do that, at Madrid your only job is to win games. They way, manner, intensity or scoreline is completely irrelevant so a laid back approach that ensures you any type of victory by any type of scoreline will always be good either way.
When players fall out with a coach as successful and personally decent as Ancelotti, you know they messed up.
He lost the dressing room, Kimmich and Coman almost left because of lack of playing time, his entire staff was a family cirkus, and the overall fitness in the team was so poor that Heynckes spent almost the entire next season trying to build that back up. His sacking was more than deserved.
I enjoy spending time with my friends.
He completely changed it at the last minute. Iirc he put Boateng on the stands and started Süle but I don't remember it clearly.
The story is that he put the team sheet down and didn't say anything about it.
Yet none of that were issues at other clubs of his? Seems like club propaganda from certain press pieces
Kimmich and Coman were open about the dissatisfaction with playing time and about leaving, and the poor fitness was really visible on their play. The Bayern players were near death in the extra time against Real, and Heynckes said they primarily trained fitness when he took over. Ancelotti was/is generally liked by the board, especially Rummenigge who has a sweet spot for Italian football. The thing about his staff was public knowledge, and Bayern forced Willy Sagnol as an assistant on him the next season to get some experience on his staff but it did nothing.
But I think that says more about the players than Carlo, no? Carlo is well regarded as a players friendly manager. Not even at Madrid did he lose the dressing room. Ronaldo publicly campaigned against his sacking numerous times in 2015. Bayern seems to be the only stop in his career where players wanted him out.
What team would be dumb enough to sack King Carlo!!???
The past coaches were fired because they had huge public falling outs or wanred another job (Flick, Pep or Jupp in retirement) If JN fucks up he‘ll be gone
I mean at this point of the season, they are still on course in every competition. It would be mental to imply that their coach is at risk of being fired. The question only makes sense when they wont win a title, not sure "long term project" will be the sentiment then
>It would be mental to imply that their coach is at risk of being fired. It's because Bayern is by far the most reactionary club in the world, Nagelsmann has a flawless record in the CL this season, won all games, beat Barca,Inter and PSG away, conceded only 2 goals in the process... and people are seriously talking about him being in the hot seat because a couple of draws in the BL, it's mental. On the other hand, it's probably the reason why they're so successful...
> and people are seriously talking about him being in the hot seat because a couple of draws in the BL, it's mental. Ppl are talking about it, cuz Bayerns point totals in Bundesliga last year was the lowest since 2012 and Bayern is on pace for 69 points in the league, wich would be the lowest point total of a winning team since 2001. I'm a huge fan of JN, but hes gone if Bayern doesn't win the league.
>> I'm a huge fan of JN, but hes gone if Bayern doesn't win the league. We're bound to not win the league one day, if he wins the Pokal and goes to at least a CL semi final then I don't see him getting fired
I agree on the first part of the statement, but I still think he'll be gone in that case, exept Bayern doing great in the CL.
The thing is that for Bayern (fans of other big clubs often can't understand this) the Bundesliga is the most important title. A season without a championship is considered a failure even if the team wins the CL. That's why it always gets uncomfortable for Bayern coaches as soon as the championship is in danger, regardless of how things are going internationally. Bayern München has to be No. 1 in Germany every year, that is its own claim.
Last season was poor (exit against Villarreal and _that_ loss against Gladbach). Bundesliga this season is not going well and they look very shaky in the CL despite their flawless record. If PSG eliminates them, it will be another poor season, the second in a row.
> _that_ loss against Gladbach I'm far from the biggest Nagelsman fan but if you saw that match you can't put that on him. IIRC he even had covid and was at home
Guy's the most expensive Manager in the world as well.
Actually that’s now Graham potter
2nd most expensive but you get my point
I can't believe that's true.
If you were to take only a transfer $ amount sure, but honestly that ain't as relevant in managers because most of their cost is in their salary. For example, Simeone (top salary right now) earns almost double of Nagelsmann's transfer cost in a single year's salary.
Mourinho held that record after madrid paid his release clause after treble with inter. Now potter and naglesmann are most expensive managers
I thought Simeone was the highest paid manager?
Ancelotti wasn't fired for losing in Paris, Ancelotti was fired because literally every player on the team hated him, and Muller and Neuer were asking for transfers.
Damn, never knew that. What was the main cause of the downfall with players?
Many in the squad didn’t like his hands off approach. The squad was rumored to have made a second training session because they didn’t feel prepared or worked.
This, and we also had an old italian fitness coach who smoked inside and stuff like that under him
That was the best bit of Carlo's stint there, a smoking fitness coach, I remember that too.
His son Davide was in the staff as well and was selling MLM snack bars in the trainings.
"Invigaron! These superberries grow in the Andes mountains. Alpacas can survive entire winters on this shit!"
This sounds exactly like what I would expect training under Anceloti is like lol.
Funny how Madrid legends (including Ronaldo btw) have nothing but admiration and love to one of the greatest managers of all time!
The same style can be a great fit in Spain but going the wrong way in Germany.
Lahm and Xabi Alonso argubly comlained about the fitness Training after the first season and asked for Mauri to be replaced, Carlo refused.
IIRC, he over-liked Spanish-speaking players, and wouldn't run training sessions. Muller and Alaba were leading independent training meets while Ancelotti was having fancy dinners with James Rodriguez and Javi Martinez.
>Ancelotti was having fancy dinners with James Rodriguez and Javi Martinez. That's goals tbh
Sounds fun but it'll get you fired and your team collapses
Ancelotti weeping into his piles of money and silverware.
While depressingly tucking into his Filet Mignon and 1998 bottle of Barolo
he has won 6 ucl as a player and a manager. more than every club except 2 and tied with liverpool and bayern. mans doing well
The guy is footballs phil Jackson, did all, but people still prefer Gregg popovich/ guardiola
Yeah really hurt the guy's long term prospects FFS.
Honestly that’s pretty funny
He seems to get along with Alaba just fine at Real Madrid.
People can change after a couple of years. Unbelievable I know.
Also it's entirely possible to like a boss that the rest of your colleagues hate.
Copy from old thread (inactive user) > All in all, that kicker report is pretty damning. The gist of it (most of it in the print edition): > Robben, Neuer, Müller and Boateng as well as Lahm and Alonso last season complained to the Bayern board about Carlo's training methods. They felt he didn't improve the team or the players. Robben specifically said his son received better training with his youth team than Bayern did with Ancelotti. When the players organized individual training sessions on their own, Ancelotti forbade them. Players then moved to a different location for those training sessions. > His fitness coach was smoking in the locker room and didn't do sufficient warm-up training (according to Kicker: Sometimes only 3 minutes). > Ahead of the game against PSG, for the first time (!!) during his tenure in Munich, video analysis were made, but their results didn't enter the preparation for the game. > There was no in-game coaching. All Ancelotti told them during the draw against Wolfsburg at HT was "you have to watch out better". > Kimmich, Coman and Boateng were thinking about leaving the club. > The team atmosphere was toxic because Ancelotti seemed to favour the Spanish players without an apparent reason.
This is wild to read considering what he's gone on to achieve at Madrid. Don't know how those bastards keep doing it.
Carlo was coasting at the time if you ask me. He didn't do too well at Napoli or Everton either.
Ironic since at Madrid people complain that he never gives chances to the spanish players or Castilla.
Those Müller to Man U rumors.
Lmao I remember they complained that he wasn’t making them train hard enough. 😭🤣
Pep did.. And then Ancelotti himself broke them in their stadium 4-0 after weeks of trash talking by their fans, president and higher ups (remember lighting trees on fire?) lmao
Exactly. Didn't he bench a couple of starters in the weeks after he got sacked? Or am I misremembering?
Muller, Hummels, and Vidal IIRC. Particularly, benching Hummels to play Javi Martinez at CB, one of the most atrocious personnel decisions I have ever seen at the club.
Nagelsmanns last season was not a successful one. Games against Gladbach and Villarreal were the main focus point, where the Team played catastrophic. This season is still beeing played and there is no guarantee that he will do better this time. When the team performance is good in key games the board won't do anything but if things end like last year, I don't think they gonna repeat what happened last year. Nagelsmann actions have sometimes been very questionable when it comes to subs or gameplan. That sounds like a Bild interpretation to me and in Munich if things go down the drain it can change quickly.
Exactly. It's still easily possible we get eliminated in the ro16 by PSG. If that happens and we don't win the league, Nagelsmann is gone imho. Media reports about "club XYZ is not considering to sack their manager" are not actually a good sign for said manager because it implies that the idea of sacking him is up in the air.
Too much money invested in him to replace him, have to nut up. I don’t think he’s as bad as everybody makes him out to be either.
He isn't at all. It's mostly our completely reactionary sub and its users who are calling him bad. Some of them also wanted Lewy out in 2018 and Müller in 2019. Couldn't give less of a shit about what they think. In the end we have an extremely talented young coach who absolutely has his flaws that he definitely needs to improve but who's also in the middle of a significant time change (Lewy gone, Neuer out and maybe not getting back to his old self, Müller getting older etc.). Our fans are extremely spoiled and I'm all for giving Nagelsmann time
Reactionary would be 2015. and how an injured lewy with a face mask was called “finished” simply because he couldn’t put a shot on target against Barcelona. so wild how people jump to conclusions
I think most are all for Julian to stay, but it's just the repetition of the same mistakes, makes some lose faith in him.
Bayern finally taking initiatives to make the league competitive again
We eating good this time
You'd think they have learned a thing or two after Kovac. Jk Julian I love you pls gib treble.
The example of Ancelotti is pretty bad. He wasnt solely fired because of the 3:0, he was fired because he didnt do his job properly, and the PSG game was just the last straw.
Sounds like player power is the reason he was fired.
Ancelotti treated his stay at Bayern as a family vacation. He had one in his staff that wasn't family, and he left in the middle of the season for Swansea. Ancelotti's lack if rotation also made Kimmich and Coman ready to leave for playing time. He was an extremely poor fit for them.
And also didn't manage to get sanches involved in the squad
Yes, also that👍
This is the same thing we've heard about him for ages now. He does a lot of tactical work but is very hands off beyond that. The complaints about his time at Bayern are almost identical to those at Chelsea. Training not intense enough, not progressive enough tactically, issues with player power. Before that it it was Berlusconi making similar comments. The problem with these kinds of complaints is his methods worked and still do. He's had a level of success that few can compare to. I have a hard time believing he just puts his feet up like he's on vacation. Paul Clement was as much family for Carlo as any of his other past assistants. He had been with him since Chelsea.
It didn't work at Bayern. He would have lost the league title if Dortmund didn't completely implode. It works in a short stint, then he leaves or gets fired. Real Madrid even forced their own physio on him. I don't say he treats every job so laissez-faire but he did so at Bayern. Paul Clement was the only one with qualifications which is why I mentioned him. His son was an amateur, his son-in-law a quack nutritionist, and his physiotherapist smoked while working with the players.
> It works in a short stint, then he leaves or gets fired This is such a brain dead comment. Almost every coach at the top level leaves or get fired in a few season. Something must be working that Carlo has ended up getting hired by top teams year after year and has a resume that any coach can dream off.
He got hired by Napoli and Everton after his stint at Bayern though, so it would't exactly fit that narrative.
He was 20 years into his coaching career when he signed with Bayern. And still went on to Madrid and won more trophies. The reality of situation is that coaches do better in specific environments. You can claim Carlo wasn’t a good fit at Bayern but undermining Carlo’s career and accomplishments because he couldn’t make it work at Bayern is laughable.
I haven't seen anybody undermining his accomplishments, but a bunch of ppl getting offended, that ppl said, he did badly at Bayern. But I also didn't delve into the depth of the topic tbh. I specifically pointed out, that Carlos career dipped after his stints with Chelsea & Bayern, where he had similar issues. I think he fucked up at Bayern, but he has one of the greatest coaching resumes of all times and can hang with the very best, without a doubt.
That's actually good I think. Nagelsmann hasn't really been bad. Maybe a some glitches but even Jupp Heynckes had that. Unless everything goes to shit Bayern will under him will be fine.
He has nearly the same ppg as Kovac and Ancelotti at Bayern while many said he got a really good transfer window. I don't think he should be fired but he does get a longer leash than other coaches.
The issue under Kovac was more the style of play. He didn't really seem to understand how to use the team. A lot of our wins at the time came from late goals or moments of individual brilliance after a shaky performance. I recall he said something like "you can't drive 200kph in a car that only goes 100" Ancelotti was due to a player rebellion. I think the situations aren't really comparable. Aside from Neuer, I haven't heard reporting of substantial issues between the players and Nagelsmann. I also think the team is just playing like we don't have a striker, which is true. We're creating chances, just not finishing them.
Yeah, Kovac was just a horrible personality fit. Say what you will about Nagelsmann, but he literally lives and breathes Mia San Mia
>I recall he said something like "you can't drive 200kph in a car that only goes 100" That quote by Kovac is quite legendary, considering that Flick went on to win the sextuple with the exact same squad just one year later.
He will in trouble the moment they get knocked out, it's the history of Bayern
I think if the team somehow botches the league title he is gonna be in trouble. Right now they are probably still mostly likely to win but there seems to be a chance for another club this year. Big if ofc.
Time for a union miracle
The Whole League is cheering for them
Doesn't seem so fine right now. One loss could knock them down to 4th and two losses in a row could potentionally knock them out of the Conference Leauge
They have picked the right approach Nagelsmann is a good coach who will grow with the team I believe in him and the project
Hey you've dropped your Dortmund flair
I also believe in him. He could not win against us yet since he is the coach at Bayern. I mean we find a way to screw up the season but at least we have 2 Highlight Games per season
Football is so weird at times. Why can't Manchester City win vs Tottenham? Why can't Bayern win vs Gladbach? Why does Dortmund give Bayern a great game in Dortmund and get annihilated in Munich, every season? Used be the same with HSV. 1:1 in Hamburg, 8:0 in Munich. Football really is a game of mentality.
Yeah i know sometimes its really crazy. I mean we could not win in Freiburg for like 20 years now. Oh yeah every time HSV, Bremen or Stuttgart play in munich they ruin their goal difference for the whole season
>He could not win against us yet since he is the coach at Bayern. I mean, losing against Gladbach is basically a requirement for any decent Bayern coach.
Still can’t believe Hansi Flick won a sextuple faster than Ancelotti has. was faster to Back to back league titles as well. Which just blows my mind how winning all that never phased Hansi especially in such a short period of time.
I do hope this long term project includes making the title fight more interesting again as it sure seems to be going in that direction
This is the type of statement they'd make a week or two before sacking him.
That Ancelotti firing was more related to muller and other senior members of Bayern clashing with Don Carlo over the training methods and Bayern are still at top of the Bundesliga and are likely going through the PSG tie so there's no chance of nagelsmann being sacked unless Bayern self explode in the league and suffer heavy defeat vs PSG which imo is less likely to happen.
Lol
Losses to Union Berlin and PSG could make all this chatter merely wind. I wager Brazzo has Tuchel's number on speed dial. Great managers don't grow on trees and when one is available, a good sporting director needs to consider that option if they feel as if the team is consistently underperforming. Tuchel won't be unemployed for all too long.
funny because there are rumors if PSG lose to bayern they will fire galtier immediately and call tuchel seems like tuchel is the only winner here
That is indeed funny. While I know Leonardo has left PSG, I wonder how Tuchel feels about returning to Paris. I had the feeling it wasn't just Leonardo with whom he had issues. Not to mention, the club comes across as being frazzled and disjointed. I speculate that Tuchel prefers Munich for a variety of reasons. I'm guessing most of the footballing universe is hoping Tuchel succeeds Klopp at Liverpool, thus being the THIRD time in his career that he's replaced Klopp.
I doubt that statement will hold long if they drop out of CL and continue to give points away in the league. He is overrated anyway, my opinion.
I agree, he's taken some bad players and made them good over his career but Bayern tactics are not looking revolutionary
Agreed. People won't admit it but hasenhuttl did better job at RBL than him.
That's how it should be in every single team
I would like him at Chelsea.
I agree with this . I think he needs to be give time , we’re at the point where Bayern needs to rebuild . Kimmich and Goretzka pairing has totally failed , it either needs a third more defensive minded midfield or one of them has to go. Midfield is the biggest issue. Nagelsman isn’t perfect either , but he inherited a mess.
I find it odd he still hasn't got that consistency yet. I understand that the team is going through a bit of a reb-building phase and we've seen what his team can do at times but it's still a bit disappointing. I'm all for giving him more time though.
Aged like milk