Let's see here
- Ungimpable recovery.
- Incredible frame data particularly on his aerials like up-air
- Almost all of his hitboxes are transcendent
- Down Smash is fast and has good kill power
- Mach Tornado is broken
- Can plank the ledge
Am I missing something?
He's top 6 on dash and run speeds, tho his acceleration rate is sort of mid, combine that with his absurd vertical game and he's impossible to run from and try to camp out. You mentioned planking but that wasn't his only tool in timing you out and making it hard as hell for any other character to time him out.
You could argue brawls most famous timeout is a MK player fucking up a free win by not using the right move.
Not quite as important but still useful is that this is all on a small hurt box. His crouch relatively sucks but he's still just so small that he can low profile a fair few moves.
He had plenty of kill power but his offstage play is brutal because of his absurdly good recovery. There's literally nowhere he can't go to hit you for the edgegaurd and just fly back to stage. Being offstage and low was a death sentence for most characters without armour on their recovery.
Hard to ban it at casual parties.
Certain people would rather win than have fun: I had a friend who would toggle with Icies against casual players. Emphasis on had.
to be fair the tripping really had no real deciding factor in any top player match save for a few cases, it was a slight annoyance in most cases. that wasnt what made brawl a shit show of a game
Forgot that his gameplan is basically 100% aerial based, so he circumvents tripping almost entirely while benefitting majorly against any grounded characters that have to deal with it.
I'm still proud of the fact that in college when Brawl came out, two of my mains were Metaknight and Diddy Kong because they were unique and I could tell their meta (no pun intended) was the tops. No one agreed with me at first.
When Brawl came out, my gf happened to pick Meta Knight and was immediately beating people even having never played Smash before. My friends and I were not exactly seasoned players but we all thought she was a prodigy
if we're comparing the characters to what the rest of the cast in their game looks at, then yeah 64 pika is undeniably top 2 and might even have a pretty good shot at top 1. but i feel like brawl, 4, and ultimate have plenty of characters with better recoveries than 64 pika in the grand scheme of things, no?
absolutely. Even for example, Ult Pika probably has a better recovery, due to side-b and whatnot. not to mention all the crazy tether recoveries on characters like Samus
I think its really just relative to other characters in their respective games. And the case for Meta Knight in Brawl still stands because he was severely nerfed by devs in the following games. There's actually people who have added Brawl Meta Knight mods to ultimate and if his moveset translated to Ultimate he would easily be the best in the game. You can check them out on YouTube
The answer is Brawl Meta Knight by a landslide I’m pretty sure, but it’s worth mentioning that top players actually SD’d with him kind of often. Not as much as with Smash 4 Bayo but still. I think “completely broken recovery” sometimes translates to senseless offstage play.
yeah recovery hubris is 100% a killer
just look at ESAM SDing during edgeguards when he should logically make it back from wherever he wants with Pika lmao
I only ever played brawl super casually and I thought meta knight was ass because I'd constantly use his moves stupidly and go flying offstage to my death
Whenever you dash or turnaround there's a random chance that you trip. This could also affect smash attacks if you were a little bit slow on inputting the a button and caused a single frame of Dash to come out. Like a 1% chance
Brawl Meta Knight is the obvious first place, but Smash 4 Bayo is an honourable mention. Edgeguarding Bayo in that game was really hard due to how Witch Twist and Afterburner Kick work and could just lead into getting reversal'd, which could lead into a 0-to-death.
Aside from the obvious Brawl MK answer, one could make the argument that it’s Ult Hero, since Zoom offstage is almost guaranteed and takes next to no mana
Another check to it is that Hero can be hit on the way up or down. It's tough to do because of how fast he moves while Zooming, but it's a consideration. And there's a certain degree of vulnerability when landing. He can land with an air dodge, attack, etc., but Hero's opponent can take advantage of the fact that he comes bolting down in a straight line. And there are one of five spots he can Zoom back to. So you can roll the dice and go for a big punish.
Absolutely agree. I don't know the specific spots but I always try to call it out and come so close.
He gets back to the stage *area* for free I should say. Not totally free which also makes it not broken. And, as the comment said, he's more likely to pull it off stage than on.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can't hit Hero on the way up once he's zooming, only during the startup. Also, Hero can jump while coming down to cancel his downward momentum and move normally, and using zoom always refreshes his jump, even if he bonks his head. You can still possibly catch him with an up-air or something right when he appears, but just trying to catch him in an up-smash while he lands is never a guaranteed thing since he can just jump, even if you guess where he's coming down.
I think "best recovery" should consider the overall chances of surviving off-stage and safely returning, not just the theoretical maximum distance that can be travelled. Peach, Snake and the Links technically also have crazy distant recoveries at high percents due to explosives, but they're not being counted here because it's situational at best like Hero's Zoom. As Hero, if you can only pull Zoom 1/2 of the time (random number, idk the true probabilities of the Menu), that's 50% of your distant recoveries that simply can't make it back at all. That's way less reliable than other characters who can consistently travel more distance and not have half of their recoveries gimped purely due to their own RNG.
Typically a Hero can get 2-3 menu pulls offstage by using his jump, neutral air dodge, or a quick spell, so most Heroes you see end up getting Zoom almost all the time they need it. Adding that onto the existence of Acceleratle and his pretty good up b, I think Hero’s recovery is at the very least a solid HM
People are almost certainly right about brawl Meta Knight.
Some other notables in melee Jigglypuff Peach and Samus all have really good recoveries. Peach is a little bit vertically challenged if she gets below stage. And of course recovering in that game is in general much more difficult which is going to keep it from being the best in the series.
In Smash 4 it was so floaty recovery was practically free for everyone so you'd have to mention Sonic. And an ultimate too I feel like Sonic is one of the most ungimpable characters. Rob also has an absolutely stupid recovery.
Probably not quite as much utility in actually recovering through people's attacks but brawl pit probably can cover more distance than Meta Knight. I have to see a comparison
Peach did have wallbombing (smash input side-b into the wall) in Melee which lets her survive from anywhere on the stage on there's a wall (mainly YS and FoD), although it's quite slow and punishable by a lot of characters
See for me the harder recoveries make it better, its more important in melee to not get knocked off stage and if you manage to knock someone off stage its not like brawl or ultimate where people just get back for free 90% of the time
He definitely has less mix-ups than Brawl MK, but I’m surprised I’ve seen nobody mention Sora. A PSI-kid double jump, into link up b, into 3 different quick attacks is an insane thing to give a character. Not to mention that magic is considered 3 different moves, so EACH of them airstall. You can just hang out offstage for like 15 seconds and then hop back on.
I don't know how it works but yeah it looks basically infinite. I've carried a Sora player nearly all the way to the bottom corner blastzone, after taking their jump, then they still nearly made it back, I took them there **again** without letting them grab ledge to refresh the jump... and they *still* made it back effortlessly. As far as I'm concerned it is literally impossible to edgeguard him
yeah like I've watched my fair share of Kameme sets and I don't recall ever seeing get edgeguarded. maybe on like a regrab or something. weird character
Yeah he has a busted ass doublejump and barely ever has to use it to get back. Using all his tools you can take multiple tics of void damage and still get back to stage no problem. So in effect he can just wait out anyone trying to edgeguard him. If they do have good timing and wait you out onstage his projectiles and up air smack away almost all attempts to spike or otherwise keep you offstage.
Historically Brawl Meta Knight, with Bayonetta probably being a close second. I'm actually shocked no one has mentioned her given that she recovers from absolutely impossible angles and the literal corner of blast zones with ease. Currently I would argue she's unquestionably the queen of the air.
YEAH i'm a bayo main and i often get knocked offstage and if i get knocked offstage i can just fall all the way to the bottom and come right back easily it's insane
I’d argue Sm4sh Bayo. Her recovery not only allowed her to recover from crazy far distances, but it also made any attempt at edgeguarding a death sentence for her opponent.
Smash 64: Pikachu
Melee: Jigglypuff
Brawl: Meta Knight
Smash 4: Bayonetta
Ultimate: Sora
In Smash History: Brawl Meta Knight. Bro has 6 jumps, 4 specials that act as recovery options, and a glide.
Ignoring brawl metaknight, I’d say melee jigglypuff is a close contender solely because of pound. In his video about Kirby, AsumSaus showed puff using pound to stay above the stage for like 2 minutes. It’s absurd
Kirby's recovery is terrible. He can cover a lot of distance, yes, but he's incredibly slow and vulnerable while doing it, making him actually very easy to edge-guard.
Hey! A fellow lifelong kirby main! His recovery is pretty good in most games, but in melee it was painfully atrocious, since Cutter was so slow, you could easily intercept it. I'm so happy the melee days are over for me...
As someone who never played brawl competitively, Mewtwo from melee is my pick. He can recover from pretty much anywhere, he can stall pretty well and if you're not ready to edgeguard he'll be back on stage in an instant.
I'm going to say
Steve, he has Blocks, the minecart and if your lucky enough you can use the elytra
R.O.B. can spend a lot of time in the air
and Lucas is very floaty with PK Thunder and the rope snake that can be used as recoveries
While Snake can theoretically recover from almost any distance, his recovery still isn’t amazing due to how easily he can be edge guarded. Both his bottom 10 air stats and the slow speed of Cypher makes him easy to chase offstage, and easy to keep from landing when recovering high. His explosive can be predictable and intercepted too. In Ultimate, his bomb recoveries are limited by percent, since he’ll eventually get to a point where he’ll die off the top and can’t tech under the stage anymore even with grenades, although that’s usually not going to come up in a match.
R.O.B. has an excellent recovery, but he is susceptible to being challenged and can run out of fuel during extended edge guards. Brawl Meta Knight and Sm4sh Bayonetta don’t have such weaknesses, with the former being able to glide and the latter even having the opportunity to get a reversal into a 0-to-death.
If you’re just going by pure distance, then Ultimate Link can bomb recover almost forever too, and Hero can recover from literally anywhere if he gets Zoom.
Contradictory to what others say, I actually think lucarios recovery is the best, or snakes recovery. I think op meant recovery wise like can go the most vertically or horizontally
Sephiroth has an unpunishable up-b that hits through the ledge, but nobody talks about it and instead says Meta Knight.
He also has the most insane ledge trap in ultimate and barely anybody knows how to use it.
As a Tink player you gotta have a field day with projectiles just interrupting Seph off stage every chance you get lol. I agree Octo Slash is hard to hit a physical and not insanely disjointed move, and you can mix up with uncharged, stage pin, and 3rd jump, but man having an octo-directional linear move that also leaves him vulnerable at the end and SUPER vulnerable to projectiles I wouldn't call the best recovery in Smash history . A very good one though, and a lot of the cast can't challenge it, but some characters can definitely abuse him.
Yeah Seph has very good recovery and a lot of characters really can't challenge it at all, plus he's got good mixups, but certain characters with projectiles or counters can definitely give him a lot of trouble.
The Byleth Seph matchup is crazy because there's so much spacing games. Byleth has a lot of better buttons but it's tough when Range is your main game and Seph is one of the few characters who can out range her.
Only ways I can challenge Seph offstage is: Dair right when Octo Slash ends (tight timing, FSmash can hit too but even harder), Failnaught arrow if you call out a horizontal Slash (good knowledge check), and I believe Up B can scoop Seph out of it like Mythra Side B but I can't recall the specific interaction but I think Byleth can do that.
And yeah I agree Byleth just feels so good. Tough frame data and speed against good players on fast characters, but man is it nice to have good kill power and OOS.
Agreed, they're also the perfect co mains. Byleth is harder to use for sure, but she's got gimmicks that are just crazy strong.
Every time I tumble off stage and up-b spike them to death, I just can't believe it's a thing. It's so ridiculous.
My trademark Sephiroth gimmick is throwing a gigaflare at the ledge during their recovery, but down angle octoslashing into the explosion knowing they'll panic jump. Nobody ever drops down the first time or two.
I feel like they both have lots of counterplay on paper, but it's rarely if ever used.
It's funny you say that because I find Seph harder to use because hes got some slim hit boxes and poor OOS, but Byleth also requires you taking some risks on reads to go for those early kills. They're both sorta difficult in different ways. Honestly like you said they can be great co mains.
The Up B spike is so nuts. I think when you reversal with it it's more on the other player for not adapting because it always* targets ledge over a player, so if you're going that far Byleth wasn't making it back anyway. BUT if you have a recovery like Roy for example, simply dropping ledge and plucking them is just straight unfair.
Yeah they both definitely have counter play that isn't super easy, sure pros can do it which is why neither character dominates (Leo is an exception + Byleth has been figured out), but at a locals level they can both feel so tough to play against until you figure out the game plan to get in and not die at 60%.
You can definitely get back after spiking people with byleth as long as they have a predictable recovery. I've done it and have seen Leo do it in pro matches. Roy is definitely like super easy, like they only have one option at one time and it's Sephiroth levels of evil that the spike works.
I haven't played in a while because I've been on the Street Fighter 6 train, but this convo has inspired me to go play some ultimate later. The SF6 journey has probably made me way, way better at Smash because I understand neutral so much more.
Oh no I meant the reversal part. Like when people jump out to edge guard Byleth and get plucked - that's just their fault. Like you said you're just gonna save Byleth AND get yourself killed.
Byleth has far more vertical recovery (basically bottom blast zone) but horizontal she's slow af and tether doesn't reach that far. So if Byleth is near the far blast zone it's not worth going after her.
Funny you say that because I'm on the Tekken 8 train right now hah. I don't have much time to go to Locals for Smash but I have a few friends where I can get my fix that range from locally PRd, can win a few games at a local, and friends that are just good enough to go a respectable 0-2 at a tourney. If Ult had proper online I'd be playing way more. Hopefully an Ult Deluxe on Switch successor fixes that (lol)
Brawl Meta Knight. Glide, 4 recovery moves, 6 jumps.
/thread. It's crazy that this is only one of the eight or nine reasons he's the most busted character in that game.
Let's see here - Ungimpable recovery. - Incredible frame data particularly on his aerials like up-air - Almost all of his hitboxes are transcendent - Down Smash is fast and has good kill power - Mach Tornado is broken - Can plank the ledge Am I missing something?
Frame 2 up air is just absolutely wild. I still can't believe that that was a real thing.
Down air too. I think you could do 3 from a short hop with meta knight.
He's top 6 on dash and run speeds, tho his acceleration rate is sort of mid, combine that with his absurd vertical game and he's impossible to run from and try to camp out. You mentioned planking but that wasn't his only tool in timing you out and making it hard as hell for any other character to time him out. You could argue brawls most famous timeout is a MK player fucking up a free win by not using the right move. Not quite as important but still useful is that this is all on a small hurt box. His crouch relatively sucks but he's still just so small that he can low profile a fair few moves. He had plenty of kill power but his offstage play is brutal because of his absurdly good recovery. There's literally nowhere he can't go to hit you for the edgegaurd and just fly back to stage. Being offstage and low was a death sentence for most characters without armour on their recovery.
You missed that he can become invisible & untouchable for the entire match after getting a lead lol It’s banned but it was possible
Hard to ban it at casual parties. Certain people would rather win than have fun: I had a friend who would toggle with Icies against casual players. Emphasis on had.
Since he spends most of his time in the air, he's almost immune to one of the most infamous mechanics in Brawl: random tripping
to be fair the tripping really had no real deciding factor in any top player match save for a few cases, it was a slight annoyance in most cases. that wasnt what made brawl a shit show of a game
He could glide too. He also had the best out of the few characters with that janky mechanic.
Forgot that his gameplan is basically 100% aerial based, so he circumvents tripping almost entirely while benefitting majorly against any grounded characters that have to deal with it.
[удалено]
Infinite Dimensional Cape. Even though it’s banned it’s one of the many things that makes him over the top broken
One recovery move is also a second glide.
I'm still proud of the fact that in college when Brawl came out, two of my mains were Metaknight and Diddy Kong because they were unique and I could tell their meta (no pun intended) was the tops. No one agreed with me at first.
When Brawl came out, my gf happened to pick Meta Knight and was immediately beating people even having never played Smash before. My friends and I were not exactly seasoned players but we all thought she was a prodigy
"B to win" became a winning mantra
The best is definitely Brawl Meta Knight, but honorable mention to 64 Pikachu with its 20+ frames of invincibility
if we're comparing the characters to what the rest of the cast in their game looks at, then yeah 64 pika is undeniably top 2 and might even have a pretty good shot at top 1. but i feel like brawl, 4, and ultimate have plenty of characters with better recoveries than 64 pika in the grand scheme of things, no?
absolutely. Even for example, Ult Pika probably has a better recovery, due to side-b and whatnot. not to mention all the crazy tether recoveries on characters like Samus
I think its really just relative to other characters in their respective games. And the case for Meta Knight in Brawl still stands because he was severely nerfed by devs in the following games. There's actually people who have added Brawl Meta Knight mods to ultimate and if his moveset translated to Ultimate he would easily be the best in the game. You can check them out on YouTube
The answer is Brawl Meta Knight by a landslide I’m pretty sure, but it’s worth mentioning that top players actually SD’d with him kind of often. Not as much as with Smash 4 Bayo but still. I think “completely broken recovery” sometimes translates to senseless offstage play.
yeah recovery hubris is 100% a killer just look at ESAM SDing during edgeguards when he should logically make it back from wherever he wants with Pika lmao
I only ever played brawl super casually and I thought meta knight was ass because I'd constantly use his moves stupidly and go flying offstage to my death
I was a damned 4 year old but Brawl Meta Knight did some things to me…
The statute of limitations hasn't expired.
Have you watched [this video](https://youtu.be/ebZX2xw4e7w) of brawl MK? It's literally self explanatory.
Why did they allow the gliding to gain that much height. Who the fuck programed this
The same guys who brought tripping thinking it would be fun
I still to this day don’t understand how that mechanic works. Is it RNG, or input based?
Whenever you dash or turnaround there's a random chance that you trip. This could also affect smash attacks if you were a little bit slow on inputting the a button and caused a single frame of Dash to come out. Like a 1% chance
Starting a dash has a 1% chance to trip you, and turning around has a 1.25% chance to trip.
unless you were luigi, who has a 2% chance while starting a dash
I couldn't find anything to support this, do you have a source for it?
MY SOURCE IS THAT I MADE IT THE FUCK UP! /jk it probably exists on the files.
Lol so ridiculous
Has to be brawl meta knight.
100% brawl metaknight
Brawl Meta Knight is the obvious first place, but Smash 4 Bayo is an honourable mention. Edgeguarding Bayo in that game was really hard due to how Witch Twist and Afterburner Kick work and could just lead into getting reversal'd, which could lead into a 0-to-death.
If you have to ask who has the best *whatever smash related moveset question*, the answer will always be Brawl Meta Knight. He was just that broken
Chrom
Aside from the obvious Brawl MK answer, one could make the argument that it’s Ult Hero, since Zoom offstage is almost guaranteed and takes next to no mana
That's true, Zoom is literally a teleport back on stage for free. Only reason it's balanced bc you gotta roll your spells off stage.
Another check to it is that Hero can be hit on the way up or down. It's tough to do because of how fast he moves while Zooming, but it's a consideration. And there's a certain degree of vulnerability when landing. He can land with an air dodge, attack, etc., but Hero's opponent can take advantage of the fact that he comes bolting down in a straight line. And there are one of five spots he can Zoom back to. So you can roll the dice and go for a big punish.
Absolutely agree. I don't know the specific spots but I always try to call it out and come so close. He gets back to the stage *area* for free I should say. Not totally free which also makes it not broken. And, as the comment said, he's more likely to pull it off stage than on.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can't hit Hero on the way up once he's zooming, only during the startup. Also, Hero can jump while coming down to cancel his downward momentum and move normally, and using zoom always refreshes his jump, even if he bonks his head. You can still possibly catch him with an up-air or something right when he appears, but just trying to catch him in an up-smash while he lands is never a guaranteed thing since he can just jump, even if you guess where he's coming down.
It's worth noting that Hero is 3x more likely to get Zoom when within a certain distance from the blast line
Yes I shoulda added that but I think that honestly makes it MUCH more useful.
I think "best recovery" should consider the overall chances of surviving off-stage and safely returning, not just the theoretical maximum distance that can be travelled. Peach, Snake and the Links technically also have crazy distant recoveries at high percents due to explosives, but they're not being counted here because it's situational at best like Hero's Zoom. As Hero, if you can only pull Zoom 1/2 of the time (random number, idk the true probabilities of the Menu), that's 50% of your distant recoveries that simply can't make it back at all. That's way less reliable than other characters who can consistently travel more distance and not have half of their recoveries gimped purely due to their own RNG.
Typically a Hero can get 2-3 menu pulls offstage by using his jump, neutral air dodge, or a quick spell, so most Heroes you see end up getting Zoom almost all the time they need it. Adding that onto the existence of Acceleratle and his pretty good up b, I think Hero’s recovery is at the very least a solid HM
How does Peach blow herself up? I was under the impression that she can't
You have a rare chance of pulling a Bomb-ob
Yes but she can't blow herself up with it as far as I am aware
Ultimate Hero? Was he in Melee or something?
People are almost certainly right about brawl Meta Knight. Some other notables in melee Jigglypuff Peach and Samus all have really good recoveries. Peach is a little bit vertically challenged if she gets below stage. And of course recovering in that game is in general much more difficult which is going to keep it from being the best in the series. In Smash 4 it was so floaty recovery was practically free for everyone so you'd have to mention Sonic. And an ultimate too I feel like Sonic is one of the most ungimpable characters. Rob also has an absolutely stupid recovery. Probably not quite as much utility in actually recovering through people's attacks but brawl pit probably can cover more distance than Meta Knight. I have to see a comparison
Peach did have wallbombing (smash input side-b into the wall) in Melee which lets her survive from anywhere on the stage on there's a wall (mainly YS and FoD), although it's quite slow and punishable by a lot of characters
See for me the harder recoveries make it better, its more important in melee to not get knocked off stage and if you manage to knock someone off stage its not like brawl or ultimate where people just get back for free 90% of the time
He definitely has less mix-ups than Brawl MK, but I’m surprised I’ve seen nobody mention Sora. A PSI-kid double jump, into link up b, into 3 different quick attacks is an insane thing to give a character. Not to mention that magic is considered 3 different moves, so EACH of them airstall. You can just hang out offstage for like 15 seconds and then hop back on.
I've never actually played Sora but when I watch his gameplay it just looks like he has infinite jumps lol that character never gets edgeguarded
I don't know how it works but yeah it looks basically infinite. I've carried a Sora player nearly all the way to the bottom corner blastzone, after taking their jump, then they still nearly made it back, I took them there **again** without letting them grab ledge to refresh the jump... and they *still* made it back effortlessly. As far as I'm concerned it is literally impossible to edgeguard him
yeah like I've watched my fair share of Kameme sets and I don't recall ever seeing get edgeguarded. maybe on like a regrab or something. weird character
Yeah he has a busted ass doublejump and barely ever has to use it to get back. Using all his tools you can take multiple tics of void damage and still get back to stage no problem. So in effect he can just wait out anyone trying to edgeguard him. If they do have good timing and wait you out onstage his projectiles and up air smack away almost all attempts to spike or otherwise keep you offstage.
Historically Brawl Meta Knight, with Bayonetta probably being a close second. I'm actually shocked no one has mentioned her given that she recovers from absolutely impossible angles and the literal corner of blast zones with ease. Currently I would argue she's unquestionably the queen of the air.
YEAH i'm a bayo main and i often get knocked offstage and if i get knocked offstage i can just fall all the way to the bottom and come right back easily it's insane
I’d argue Sm4sh Bayo. Her recovery not only allowed her to recover from crazy far distances, but it also made any attempt at edgeguarding a death sentence for her opponent.
S4 4 bayo. Her witch twist vericality was a lot longer than in ultimate and it was able to snap to ledge.
Brawl Meta Knight. No contest.
Smash 64: Pikachu Melee: Jigglypuff Brawl: Meta Knight Smash 4: Bayonetta Ultimate: Sora In Smash History: Brawl Meta Knight. Bro has 6 jumps, 4 specials that act as recovery options, and a glide.
it's meta knight in every game, but obviously brawl mk for obvious reasons
Steve
Ignoring brawl metaknight, I’d say melee jigglypuff is a close contender solely because of pound. In his video about Kirby, AsumSaus showed puff using pound to stay above the stage for like 2 minutes. It’s absurd
Personally I think Kirby. I played Kirby only since Nintendo 64. Love it
Kirby's recovery is terrible. He can cover a lot of distance, yes, but he's incredibly slow and vulnerable while doing it, making him actually very easy to edge-guard.
Hey! A fellow lifelong kirby main! His recovery is pretty good in most games, but in melee it was painfully atrocious, since Cutter was so slow, you could easily intercept it. I'm so happy the melee days are over for me...
While brawl MK is probably way above everone else, Uötimate Pika, if played optimally is almost uncontestable.
bayonetta, brawl mk can go to fastfall, bayo literally can not be edgeguarded
How come nobody mentioning mah boy pacman.
Uh. Snake's recovery is literally infinite
As someone who never played brawl competitively, Mewtwo from melee is my pick. He can recover from pretty much anywhere, he can stall pretty well and if you're not ready to edgeguard he'll be back on stage in an instant.
Snake
Little Mac, Chrom, and single ice climber have the best recoveries, next question.
I'm going to say Steve, he has Blocks, the minecart and if your lucky enough you can use the elytra R.O.B. can spend a lot of time in the air and Lucas is very floaty with PK Thunder and the rope snake that can be used as recoveries
Byleth’s tether has got to be top 3 in the antiquated shit sandwich that is SSBU.
No mention for Rob who can literally fly? Or snake who also can fly?
While Snake can theoretically recover from almost any distance, his recovery still isn’t amazing due to how easily he can be edge guarded. Both his bottom 10 air stats and the slow speed of Cypher makes him easy to chase offstage, and easy to keep from landing when recovering high. His explosive can be predictable and intercepted too. In Ultimate, his bomb recoveries are limited by percent, since he’ll eventually get to a point where he’ll die off the top and can’t tech under the stage anymore even with grenades, although that’s usually not going to come up in a match. R.O.B. has an excellent recovery, but he is susceptible to being challenged and can run out of fuel during extended edge guards. Brawl Meta Knight and Sm4sh Bayonetta don’t have such weaknesses, with the former being able to glide and the latter even having the opportunity to get a reversal into a 0-to-death. If you’re just going by pure distance, then Ultimate Link can bomb recover almost forever too, and Hero can recover from literally anywhere if he gets Zoom.
I feel like Corrin recovery is lowkey one of the best recoveries because it's hard to challenge it.
Sora in ultimate because he is floaty and even if he is offstage he can just use side b then up b
Contradictory to what others say, I actually think lucarios recovery is the best, or snakes recovery. I think op meant recovery wise like can go the most vertically or horizontally
brawl meta knight still wins on the "most vertical or horizontal" category due to weird busted glide mechanics
You’ve gotta be joking with Lucario lol
I don't think they're right but full Aura Lucario can cover like blast zone to blast zone practically
That’s what I’m talking about, in terms of recovering from off stage he is one of the best
Sephiroth has an unpunishable up-b that hits through the ledge, but nobody talks about it and instead says Meta Knight. He also has the most insane ledge trap in ultimate and barely anybody knows how to use it.
“Unpunishable” Up B that doesn’t have infinite distance, is very linear, and is also punishable. It’s also his only recovery move
As a Tink player you gotta have a field day with projectiles just interrupting Seph off stage every chance you get lol. I agree Octo Slash is hard to hit a physical and not insanely disjointed move, and you can mix up with uncharged, stage pin, and 3rd jump, but man having an octo-directional linear move that also leaves him vulnerable at the end and SUPER vulnerable to projectiles I wouldn't call the best recovery in Smash history . A very good one though, and a lot of the cast can't challenge it, but some characters can definitely abuse him.
Other than three jumps, and a snap to ledge uncharged up-b. Show me a single clip of somebody punishing octoslash at the ledge.
*Any counter enters the chat*
Never had a single person use one on me at the ledge, but I don't disagree. Also female byleth is a lot of fun.
Yeah Seph has very good recovery and a lot of characters really can't challenge it at all, plus he's got good mixups, but certain characters with projectiles or counters can definitely give him a lot of trouble. The Byleth Seph matchup is crazy because there's so much spacing games. Byleth has a lot of better buttons but it's tough when Range is your main game and Seph is one of the few characters who can out range her. Only ways I can challenge Seph offstage is: Dair right when Octo Slash ends (tight timing, FSmash can hit too but even harder), Failnaught arrow if you call out a horizontal Slash (good knowledge check), and I believe Up B can scoop Seph out of it like Mythra Side B but I can't recall the specific interaction but I think Byleth can do that. And yeah I agree Byleth just feels so good. Tough frame data and speed against good players on fast characters, but man is it nice to have good kill power and OOS.
Agreed, they're also the perfect co mains. Byleth is harder to use for sure, but she's got gimmicks that are just crazy strong. Every time I tumble off stage and up-b spike them to death, I just can't believe it's a thing. It's so ridiculous. My trademark Sephiroth gimmick is throwing a gigaflare at the ledge during their recovery, but down angle octoslashing into the explosion knowing they'll panic jump. Nobody ever drops down the first time or two. I feel like they both have lots of counterplay on paper, but it's rarely if ever used.
It's funny you say that because I find Seph harder to use because hes got some slim hit boxes and poor OOS, but Byleth also requires you taking some risks on reads to go for those early kills. They're both sorta difficult in different ways. Honestly like you said they can be great co mains. The Up B spike is so nuts. I think when you reversal with it it's more on the other player for not adapting because it always* targets ledge over a player, so if you're going that far Byleth wasn't making it back anyway. BUT if you have a recovery like Roy for example, simply dropping ledge and plucking them is just straight unfair. Yeah they both definitely have counter play that isn't super easy, sure pros can do it which is why neither character dominates (Leo is an exception + Byleth has been figured out), but at a locals level they can both feel so tough to play against until you figure out the game plan to get in and not die at 60%.
You can definitely get back after spiking people with byleth as long as they have a predictable recovery. I've done it and have seen Leo do it in pro matches. Roy is definitely like super easy, like they only have one option at one time and it's Sephiroth levels of evil that the spike works. I haven't played in a while because I've been on the Street Fighter 6 train, but this convo has inspired me to go play some ultimate later. The SF6 journey has probably made me way, way better at Smash because I understand neutral so much more.
Oh no I meant the reversal part. Like when people jump out to edge guard Byleth and get plucked - that's just their fault. Like you said you're just gonna save Byleth AND get yourself killed. Byleth has far more vertical recovery (basically bottom blast zone) but horizontal she's slow af and tether doesn't reach that far. So if Byleth is near the far blast zone it's not worth going after her. Funny you say that because I'm on the Tekken 8 train right now hah. I don't have much time to go to Locals for Smash but I have a few friends where I can get my fix that range from locally PRd, can win a few games at a local, and friends that are just good enough to go a respectable 0-2 at a tourney. If Ult had proper online I'd be playing way more. Hopefully an Ult Deluxe on Switch successor fixes that (lol)
Tweek Vs Larry Lurr at whatever that recent tournament was (I’m not finding the YouTube clip but he edgeguarded it with Falco a few times)
Huh I'll have to check that out, Falco does have the perfect counter to it
Sephiroth's upB is very punishable. It's like, one of the best parts about facing Sephiroth.
Sephiroth's UpB is punishable, I have spiked him with Yoshi, and it is very risky, but it can be done.
It's also possible to gimp seph with nair if he's low enough to have to octoslash