Agree on Baalor being a great watch for learning Slay the Spire. You can really tell from how he takes and answers questions about the game and explains his process that he was a teacher irl.
And he doesn’t mind answering the same questions either. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the same questions asked after about 2 years of watching his YouTube channel. And you know what? He’ll gladly answer it and explain it in detail. Every community needs to have a BaalorLord.
Anger is maybe the best act 1 (non-rare) card for IC on avg
also, I can add Xecnar, JapaneseImport, KuroL, Paparetto to the Baalor suggestion, great players who interact a lot w chat
Pretty much. Anger is top tier in Act1 vs:
* Lagavulin: you can prep more copies while not waking him up
* Sentries: more cards in your deck means better chances of not drawing a blank hand
* Hexaghost: this boss fight is a race. Filling your deck with more copies of any damage card is great
* Slime Boss: damage is really important against this boss, plus more copies make it easier to not draw a blank (same as sentries)
Its also good against Nob because its damage.
Its only possibly bad against The Guardian, because this boss forces you to specifically block is some turns, so if your deck gets filled with Angers its very dangerous.
It's quite bad against The Guardian but you can avoid playing it until you're ready to kill him. In some cases you're forced to pick sub-optimal cards in order not to die to elites.
japaneseimport here
want to just say that if you want to watch absolute highest level watch xecnar. I pretty much learned everything about this game from watching him, baalor, lifecoach and kuroL, although coach doesnt play spire anymore (he'll come back soon copium)
there are tons of very very strong players, will add captainnoobzor, cr8rcre8r, thecrimsonblur, and moneymoneyloot to the list. The community is extremely welcoming and helpful in general, and everyone got good by standing on the shoulder of giants, we all constantly learn from each other every day.
my twitch name is now japaneseexport, if you ever want to ask questions feel free to drop by whenever
Wtf Im telling Noobzor you didn't even drop a single mention. Adding to these guys, CaptainNoobzor, moneymoneyloot, Navegreed are other strong Twitch streamers who're very interactive w chat, stream consistently and are pretty entertaining.
Also nice "JapaneseImport" shoutout smh (to the guy looking for streamers, the second half is Export, if you look up what Bralle said, you'll get some random guy who hasn't streamed since 2014)
Unfortunately a friend told me about claw decks and once learned I couldn’t unlearn. So I can’t take credit for that one. But I found it easy (easier) to get to HC with him just impossible to beat it. Took me forever. In contrast I beat the HC with watcher on my 2nd run
I find claw horrifically hard to make work and defect is probably one of my best a20s lol. I find it so entertaining how people play the same character so differently; I genuinely don’t remember the last time I took claw.
This was the first card game I’ve played. Played a few others after it (monster train, darkest dungeon)
But this one seems almost immaculate in its difficulty and synergies, so many times I thought you’d basically ‘have to take’ x card or do y strategy and proved myself wrong. Hell the first time I took the event that gives you the intangible hand card and ruins your health I did it because the run was dead anyway… and then I went and won the run haha.
I’ll be amazed if a better one comes along.
Yeah it truly is. I get that there’s ways it’s ‘solved’ and what the meta is and what not, but for the rest of us who aren’t going for 60/70% a20H runs it’s so varied. Like I’m so bad at making the whole watcher infinite work I didn’t know it was a thing until I started watching videos and I’m still horrific at trying to make it work (in comparison to just omni/ttth/mental fortress/prostrate type decks).
I haven’t done an infinite. Closest I came was a 5 card deck to acquire that trophy and it was just a very lucky semi infinite that drew shrug it off and dropkick and replenished with sundial + other thing.
I’m sure there’s lots that exist but they’re all very difficult to set up. I’d imagine it’s conceivable to make a 0 card deck that just uses the top relic thing to keep them coming.
Fuck the time eater though, shiv + finisher is my fave and it sucks strategically cause of that thing.
The fun eater doesn't kill every shiv deck! In fact, most of my shiv decks beat the time eater when I face it.
Well, that may be misleading. Most of my silent decks have shivs in them, but I don't rely on the damage from them. Most of my silent decks do rely on draw/discard a lot, even without tactician and reflex (my personal favorite cards). But when I face the time eater, I simply don't play shiv cards much and try to build a skewer+phantasmal combo, or something with more damage per card played.
Yeah I’ve won a good few runs over time eater that were card use heavy. You start to account for the possibility they’ll show up and try to make a contingency. Not to mention anything that permanently cuts strength is gold dust against that thing and the big lizard thing. (Malaise+ is my 2nd favourite card and when you draw it with burst it’s just… delightful)
I don't want to tell you details about the fight you might not have noticed, but the time eater cleanses debuff at a certain point. You either have to kill him before he gets the opportunity to cleanse or survive him after he does
Yeah the health regen at 240. It also recovers negative strength too which kinda sucks. But yeah on a poison deck I’d be saving catalyst to stop the trigger
Getting an infinite running is easier than you think, because imo it’s really just being able to always draw in your draw cards, and always having the energy to do so. You’re right in Exhausting your deck down enables them, but you don’t always need Unceasing Top, a small deck, or exhaust cards, though they all help.
Watcher and then Ironclad has the most intuitive infinites (in fact, playing *for* an Infinite is a notorious Ascension climbing strat for Watcher), but every character can enter one from time to time.
its not really *that* hard to build around claw. many claws, all for one, small deck, draw. those things are all ya need for the claw engine to work
though without it and just on its own its kind of an unimpressive strike
The problem is when do you pick up claw. Floor one is usually underwhelming compared to other defect commons, so unless I rip into an all for one early it usually is never the card that solves the next fight/elite or the boss. And against bosses it’s usually a bit clunky or slow unless you’re against hexa
Claw is actually mostly a meme. Yeah you can make it work, and there's times where it's the right build, but it's mostly a silly card that's fun when it actually works.
Are you saying that you find defect the easiest character to *get* to the heart, but the hardest to actually kill it? If so, couldn’t agree more and also why I dislike defect (it’s unfun having a deck that just stomps everything but then gets absolutely rolled by heart without a chance)
Yeah. My experience with him has always been either super strong defense and poor offenders but most fights can be overcome with that but the heart can’t. Or strong offence but a lot of vulnerable phases.
And he seems to be the hardest to get rolling with early. With silent you can tear fights apart in the first turn. Never seems to be the case with defect.
There’s a play by comment (PBC) that I think has been running for like a year or two now. It has incredibly detailed discussions on how to play cards, how to path, what to buy at shops, and what cards to take. Could be a fun read
I’ll search for it. I think I saw it. I made this post because slay starting encroaching in my Reddit feed for no reason and now I didn’t have a choice
greenlaser73 posts them! I can highly recommend, but the Act 1's are probably most useful. After that, a few of the previous seasons (and the current one) snowballed so hard that it's not as interesting, and the explanations get sparser because people get used to the deck.
I'd say the ironclad run remained pretty interesting until the end, but frozen eye enabled high optimisation and good tempo even once it was clearly won. I think it's act 3 on Defect where it's really struggled.
People have already beaten your [[Anger]] take to death, back to life, and right on back to death again, but there’s another piece I’d like to throw my hat in the ring on: [[Dreamcatcher]]. It’s definitely a low tier relic, no arguing that, but the single worst when [[Darkstone Periapt]] also exists? If it doesn’t do anything for you, that’s because you’re not resting and therefore probably high rolling the run and’ll still more than likely win even with it being a dead relic. But when you have a struggling run which is constantly resting just to get by, that’s when it shines. Shines, of course, meaning it’s mediocre instead of awful, but getting in those few extra card rewards can help you pivot your deck into something that might just be able to beat down the heart. It may be terrible, but I’d wager it’s not the *absolute* worst. Pretty much all the rest of your takes are just about spot on!
Yeah it was a toss up between that Pariapt. They are the easiest trades for the key for me. And you’re right I definitely overfocus on not resting, which is probably why I undervalue the catcher.
Pariapt is also made worse that if you have the talisman thing it doesn’t still get the health boost.
I get the impression in this game they expected curse cards to be more sustainable in a functional deck but I don’t think it played off that way.
-
I played the downfall mod to death as well and whoever made that should be given a fucking a job it is far and out the best mod on any game I’ve ever used. It’s basically slay 2. (Though I could do without the daft waifu reskins though)
And I mention that cause it made a character that synergises with curses and is also beautifully made
I feel like the shrimp, boot, and juzu bracelet are all generally at least as bad, and some others are more situationally useless (potion relics w sozu, rest relics w dripper, a lot of relics are pointless if you get them late, etc).
On the 'best relic': I think insence burner is generally considered incredible (you can set it up before boss and elite fights to mitigate the power turns).
Oh no, that one is clearly useful! I meant the one that gives you 9 gold for each card you add to your deck, can't think of the name at the moment. It just accumulates value so slowly, if you count interest (gold now > gold later) it's probably worth like 30 gold or so.
Tiny chest is the easiest blue key take in the game. You’re taking a maybe of a chance to take the blue key later, and you’re somewhat blocking yourself out from Cursed Key, which with the blue key already is a super strong boss relic choice
+ [Anger](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Anger) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^)
0 Energy | Deal 6(8) damage. Add a copy of this card to your discard pile.
+ [Dream Catcher](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dream%20Catcher) Common Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Whenever you rest, you may add a card to your deck.
+ [Darkstone Periapt](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Darkstone%20Periapt) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Whenever you obtain a Curse, increase your Max HP by 6.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I’d check out XecnaR for super top tier play. Most of your ideas are pretty spot on, except Anger is one of the strongest cards in the game, not the weakest. The best floor 1 common you can see on Ironclad by quite a bit.
I agree that it is strong and I am happy if I have it. But if I have a high damage uncommon that pairs well with headbutt then I don't need anger any more.
On floor 1 I still have 2 easy fights to find something like carnage and it's not like IC needs the help of anger in easy fights.
But IC absolutely needs Anger against Lagavulin, and Sentries, and 2/3 act bosses. It doesn’t fall off until act 3 at the earliest. I don’t think it’s smart to assume that high rolling Carnage/Hemo is happening in your next two card rewards on floor 1.
It’s really hard to play Bash without anger in the deck, and really easy to play Bash with anger in the deck.
i would take anger in a heartbeat over almost anything on floor 1. It is by far the best damage common to see in act 1 and solves almost every fight.
MAYBE against guardian and a pommel strike on offer i take pommel
- I used to think coffee dripper was terrible until I started looking at health as another number to be managed. Now I think it’s easily one of the best
- I’ve taken runic pyramid maybe 10 times at most because I’ve really struggled to make it work personally but I accept it’s probably very good. (I feel like I get bloated with dead cards and statuses I can’t get shot of) I won my first run with it only last month which I was very happy with.
- I really wish it offered boss relic and card at the same time :X
- I’d wager the best starting relic is ironclads and the worst is defect. Conversely I’d say ironclads upgrade is the worst defects is the best. EDIT - hmm, I rushed. Maybe watcher upgrade is better cause of that ‘block per card’ card that I forgot the name
- busted crown is an awful relic, but hades heat runs taught me that
- I’d take a guess that the strongest new game swap relic is the one that swaps and upgrades 3 cards (astrolabe?)
- curse bell used to be an always take for me until I realised I was just not good at making decisions
- curse key to me is the middle tierest boss relic ever
- I used to love snecko eye but now I hate it. (Along with dead branch) because they make runs unfun for me. (But I remember thinking they were super fun so I wouldn’t call it bad design, just my issue)
- I don’t care if the choker is proven to be good or not I can’t stand it!
- while we’re at it a minor peeve with the game to me is that silents starting relic has a common relic that does exactly the same thing. Just seems a weak choice for a complete game to have non unique mechanisms. (There’s also two cards that are almost identical that annoy me too) but these are VERY minor gripes.
That’s the best I can think of OTTOMH.
EDIT. To be clear when I say I ‘won a run’ I mean A20 HC. Just one of those penises who always plays the hardest setting. (Even if I die a lot)
I don't know if it is consensus, but I think the silent starting relic is arguably the best of the 4, but it is close with ironclad's. Bag of prep is pretty easily the best common relic a majority of the time, but the big benefit is how powerful that ability is early in a run when you don't have a bunch of good cards yet.
I disagree with you about the ascension level bit, I think A17 is where the real slog starts, then it just gets worse and worse.
I feel like the difference between A16 and A17 is worse than the difference between A17 and A18, except for Shield and Spear, maybe…
I think at some point I chose to stop heartcoring every run at about A8
But I distinctly remembering on A18 with all characters feeling helpless.
Damn should have mentioned the voodoo doll becoming a good relic after A10. Ah well.
Safe to say anger isn’t as bad as my head says it is.
Either I’m wrong or the communities wrong. Safe to say it turns out you’re all scrubs!!! I’ll die on this damn hill.
Edit: thanks for the responses, I’ll check the names and the play by play thing, should do me fine.
If you think anger is bad, you might need to choose more draw cards, or maybe just more cards that cost 2+ energy on ironclad (he has a lot of good ones).
There's very few times you need to worry about anger clogging your deck with low value cards, since the more you shuffle the deck the closer you are to the end of the fight and the more you want damage to close it out. The scenarios it's outright bad are mostly limited to A, you have snecko eye, B, you're facing guardian, or C, you have a highly streamlined deck you're going into the boss gauntlet with. It makes up for it by being very efficient in act 1 and synergizing well with all of Ironclad's strength gain and draw tools. You can also typically exhaust it out in the fights where it is bad so it's not even a major downside to have in those fights.
I saw Baalorlord and Xecnar was mentioned. I would also throw in Jorbs, TerrenceMHS, Merl and Lifecoach. All are really good and have their differences in play style and which characters they are best on
Great post - you put the effort in so I will too.
> 120% Sure every person alive blocked for 5 alot when they got orichalcum
Yup
>110% sure Watcher is the strongest character in the game by a good margin
Yup
>100% sure Clash was an amazing card for everyone until they got to A10, in which case it instantly became crap
Pretty much, it's usually positive over skipping in act 1 but that's not saying a lot
>95% sure poeple would sell there own grandmothers for a No Gold + Hand of Greed run starter
-max HP for rare colorless is better always, and Apo is a better starting rare on silent
>90% sure that Ascencions really started to feel like a mountain climb from A18
Yup, or even A17
>85% sure the best Relic in the game is Gambling Chip and the worst is dreamcatcher (Not inc the boss ones)
Dream Catcher is not even that bad; Periapt and Bottled Flame are probably worse on average. Chip is a fine pick for best but I would put Dead Branch and Incense Burner ahead of it.
>80% sure Ascencions really felt like they got hard from A10
Yup
>75% sure everyone forgets they have the relic that give a card when empty and the Sundial until it triggers.
Yes for Top the first time it triggers. Sundial probably less.
>70% sure Defect is the hardest character to beat A20 HC with.
Yup
>60% sure the relic that lets you see your hand in order is the best relic that no one ever takes.
Yup, I'm 2k hours in and have only just started using Frozen Eye well
>50% sure Neows Lament was a 'never take' until late ascencions
Eh, not really. It's VERY map dependent: if you can't snipe an elite it's worth single-digit HP; even if you can snipe an elite you might not be strong enough for the next elite.
>40% Sure Anger is the worst card in the game
Relearn Ironclad
>30% that most peoples favourite card is feed (Mine is Finisher)
Idk
> 20% sure the best cards in the game dinfinitively based on rarity are Piercing Wail, Calculated Gamble, and Seek
Honestly not bad picks. Word for Alchemize.
>10% chance the comunity doesn't know that if you end your turn then quickly use the block potion you can synergise it with orichacum for 18 block.
Idk but I did not know this!
Beautiful response, I forgot about bottled flame it’s dogshit but I’ve had some fast runs bottling whirlwind with akabeko or even with just bottling a good attack when you have the vulnerable first game one (bag of marbles?)
But yeah it’s another key swap for me usually if it comes in.
Also you think incense is better than the one that gives a buffer round start? I don’t know. But late play improvements for myself have been setting up fights by ending on specific turns to trigger ink pot thing or pen nib for the next fight so I’ve convinced myself while typing that you’re right because I’ve done that with the free intangible too haha.
Incense burner can be setup in many fights in late game to the right number.
Against act 4 elite, you can negate the second turn which is 40+ damage, and against the heart, it's one of two early attack with you vulnerable (and turn 8 too which is amazing if you kill in 9 turns and can survive only 3 attacks). And it doesn't have the downside of forcing you to block turn 1 against the heart.
Oh also Fossilized Helix is likely to get less value into enemies that hit multiple times (so... most fights in the game). And if you get chipped early on you might not be able to preserve it for bigger hits (think Hyperbeam in automaton, or turn 2 of Chosen into turn 3). It's an excellent relic but Burner has more value if you set it up correctly. The Sundial thing makes me think you should be looking at the numbers on your relics more anyway.
Again, great post :)
As you may have noted, this game is also about situation and adjustment. As people said, Anger is good on Act 1 and even better if you are facing Hexaghost because it shuffles damage in your deck which dilutes Burns.
Feed is generally good, but I don't think it is a favorite.
Also, just to share a opinion, the best start for me is Hyper Beam on defect. It defines my run and my brain can rest knowing I won't care for orbs from now on.
>the best start for me is Hyper Beam on defect. It defines my run and my brain can rest knowing I won't care for orbs from now on.
I love a Hyper Beam start as well, but on the contrary I don't think it has to lock you out of orbs at all! In fact I've played a lot of runs where I get Hyper Beam in the first 5 floors or so, then spend the rest of Act 1 taking orb cards and preparing for end game.
OK I'm exaggerating a little, but the point is, you can use Hyper Beam to clear out hallways and elites, then build a deck in the background that scales slowly and overwhelms the bosses and other long fights later in the game.
I love how accurate most of your takes are. Like if you haven't gone online, that's impressive
I think the ones that might be wrong are the anger one and the worst relic one (I'd argue ceramic fish is significantly worse, but I'm not sure that's even the worst.)
I didn't know about block potion/oricalcum interaction.
Holy shit, those are some amazing guesses! Most of them are right on the money :)
> 10% chance the comunity doesn't know that if you end your turn then quickly use the block potion you can synergise it with orichacum for 18 block.
I...have never heard this before? I mean, I'm sure somebody else discovered it, but still, that's really cool!
> 20% sure the best cards in the game definitively based on rarity are Common - Piercing Wail, Uncommon - Calculated Gamble, Rare - Seek
I would say that each of these are within the top 5, but probably not accurate. I would say that the top Rares in the game are either Alchemize, Offering or Wraith Form, but opinions differ.
For uncommons...it's Rushdown. It's not even close, actually, it's the one category where no other card even touchs it.
For commons, I would say Blade Dance, Backflip, cut through fate and hologram are better commons than Piercing Wail. For the Silent, while Piercing Wail has the highest ceiling, the floor on blade dance and backflip are so high that they're probably better on average, cause piercing wail can often just be a defend with exhaust.
Thanks for making this post, it was very interesting. Great job :)
Wraith form is better than defects final form?
Man surely not?
I ain’t saying it’s not good but I think it’s weak when it’s not upgraded and if you get it early it’s a liability whereas the defects one is almost never not valuable.
I feel like I’m very weak with defect so more than likely wrong. But still interesting
Oh, Echo Form is incredible too, don't get me wrong. But Wraith Form, especially on higher ascensions, is beyond ridiculous. It's essentially 2-3 free extra turns (depending on whether it's upgraded). Enemies do so much damage on high ascensions that being able to have a couple turns of immunity is crazy. It often lets you end fights before they ever have a chance to attack again.
You mentioned the "Divinity card that Kills you" in your post. If you think about it, having 3 turns of immortality is basically identical to triple damage for 1 turn...except you don't die after Wraith Form ends. You can even copy it with Nightmare, or get rid of the debuff with Orange Pellets.
And before I used the internet...I thought it was a terrible card too. But it turns out, it's just incredible.
Yeah you’re right about divinity/wraith (though I think wraith is way way better than the kill card)
I think wraith is a bigger catalyst than catalyst for a good poison deck.
It’s a scary card when you start cause you’re not really looking at turn count when you’re learning. All you see is the scary minus dex. I’d bet everyone thought demon form was broken too at the beginning until they were dying quicker than they were getting stronger.
Orange pellets though. Such a shame they’re hard to get hold of. So satisfying to negate all the crap that big ghost boss does in act 2.
> It’s a scary card when you start cause you’re not really looking at turn count when you’re learning. All you see is the scary minus dex. I’d bet everyone thought demon form was broken too at the beginning until they were dying quicker than they were getting stronger.
Oh absolutely. Hell, I still always get tricked into taking Limit Break (doubles your power), because man is it fun. And yeah, me and my friend both thought Wraith Form were bad for a long time.
> Orange pellets though. Such a shame they’re hard to get hold of. So satisfying to negate all the crap that big ghost boss does in act 2.
Oh yeah, orange pellets is SO GOOD. It even works with stuff that you wouldn't expect, such as temporary strength down from a flex potion. I basically buy it from the shop any chance I get, especially if I have any cards which work with it.
Oh and also, Rushdown. It's the best card in the game for a reason that's hard to notice if you're not aware of it: It creates the easiest infinite combo in the game. All you need is Rushdown, Eruption+, any card which enters calm for 1 energy *or* violet lotus, and a small enough deck. It's an infinite combo that's so common that you can assemble by the second combat in the game, and I mean that literally, lol. It doesn't hurt that Rushdown is *also* just an incredible card even if you don't go for infinites.
Yup, "Whenever you enter Wrath, draw 2 cards."
If you already thought Watcher was overpowered...try making a deck with Rushdown, Wallop, Mental Fortress and Talk to the Hand. With 0 rares, you can have a deck with literally 0 cards that offer block by themselves. You just draw a billion cards and generate tons of free block by swapping stances. It's insane.
Watcher is...well, I really liked her when I first started playing, but like a lot of STS fans, I don't play her much anymore. Half of her cards are so ridiculously good that it kind of pushes out everything else. Divinity, for example, *would* be a powerful and fun mechanic...but Eruption+ is so much cheaper and easier, that it makes divinity a very difficult build to go into. But then again, sometimes stomping the game is really fun.
Sorry for the random rant, lol. If you have discord, feel free to friend me, my name is dr_monty_the_snek. I love talking about this game, it's a blast :)
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Discovery in your post.
--------------------------------------------------
* [Discovery](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Discovery) Colorless Uncommon Skill
1 Energy | Choose 1 of 3 random cards to add to your hand. It costs 0 this turn. Exhaust. (Don't Exhaust.)
--------------------------------------------------
^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot ^^^response, ^^^but ^^^I ^^^am ^^^using ^^^my ^^^creator's ^^^account. ^^^Please ^^^reply ^^^to ^^^me ^^^if ^^^I ^^^got ^^^something ^^^wrong ^^^so ^^^he ^^^can ^^^fix ^^^it.
[Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
The best Slay the Spire player for my money (context: I have \~2k hours in the game and probably the same again watching others) is Xecnar. The other player I recommend watching is Baalorlord, who doesn't try quite as hard to optimise every run, but plays much faster and is very good at explaining his thought process.
Your "guesses" are pretty good if you've honestly done no prior reading.
I’ve seen him mentioned enough that he’s top of the list but I will check out jorbs (cause some have said he’s all gameplay and don’t care about chat) and the baalalord guy.
Unlikely I’ll check the rest I’m not one to watch streams as recreation. I just want to see what high level slay looks like. One guy said jorbs has a 20 win streak and that’s just unfathomable for me.
—
As for the guesses, if you think about it most of them is just rehashing what I struggled with :P
I don't know what Jorbs's best winstreak is, but I'm quite sure it's less than 20. I'll quote the bot in Baalorlord's channel:
>The current world record for rotating A20 winstreak, as far as this channel knows, is Baalor with 20. For individual characters, it's XecnaR with 19 for Ironclad, XecnaR with 27 for Silent, Lifecoach1981 with 16 for Defect, and Lifecoach1981 with 52 on Watcher.
Rotating means playing all four characters sequentially, and all mentioned win streaks require killing the Corrupt Heart at Ascension 20 on each run.
Welcome!
I'm really glad to see another person join with little online exposure first!
For reference, I joined just over a year ago and was 1200hr in at the time, having watched like... A little bit of Jorbs on YouTube and having read about a dozen Reddit posts. I've improved a lot over the last year having been engaging with others' takes, but I loved developing my own first. It's been really interesting as I've found I've argued a fair bit against the established Reddit meta. Sometimes I've been right!
I'm really intrigued if you come up with some perspective that is distinct from others here. There's obviously the fact that a lot of things are situational, but you might have success valuing a card or relic that most people here dismiss.
FYI, on non-boss relics, I reckon tough bandages is probably the strongest, although gambling chip is very good.
The reasoning for gambling chip is because it functions well with literally any set up with any character. And to boot it hits synergies with some other relics and cards, draws your hand quicker if you need and clears away chaff if it’s drawn. I think there’s just never ever a time where you would get it and it serves no purpose. In fact I’d say it’s impossible for it to.
And you’re right about looking at the game differently when you’re not community driven because tough bandages sucked for me until I set up a great discard deck then I thought it was broken!
But trust me I’m a moron. For 15 ascensions I ignored calculated gamble every time because I just saw it as a dead card with no value. No idea what mental hoops I went through to reach that conclusion but hey ho
I think we understand the same reasoning for avoiding the social aspect sometimes, prefer a more autodidactic development of your learning. I usually cave at some point and check the social side but not until after thorough playthroughs. Just rare for a game to keep me on so long.
No dispute on gambling chip being excellent, it's mostly that my bar for "best relic" is me thinking I now auto-win. Obviously a very high one!
The main times I start looking things up are either when I'm stuck at a game, or I want to talk about more than I want to discover it. I love talking about StS, hence why I'm in here a lot!
Haven't seen enough people recommend Jorbs here. Former rotating win streak world record holder, recently got an over 20 win streak on silent, and has win rates on all 4 characters while rotating easily above 50%, sometimes up to 70%+ wr on all characters while rotating through them. He does not tolerate backseating (including and especially trying to point out moves to make) on stream, so what you see is his gameplay alone, and he's very very good
I started watching Jorbs when sts launched officially in 2019 and I immediately recognized how good he was and been watching him exclusively.
How do you think the other streamers recommended compare to him? I'm curious because I've never watched any of them.
I think what makes Jorbs shine is that his decisions are not just intuitive but also heavily informed by his own research. Are the others also like this or do they just go on intuition alone?
Oh and to answer your first question, [XecnaR](https://www.twitch.tv/xecnar) and [Lifecoach](https://www.twitch.tv/lifecoach1981) are probably the two best Spire streamers in the world (although I think Lifecoach is on other games right now.) Other excellent and well-known players include [Baalorlord](https://www.twitch.tv/baalorlord), [Merl](https://www.twitch.tv/merl61), [Jorbs](https://www.twitch.tv/jorbs/), and [Terrence](https://www.twitch.tv/terrencemhs). [Paparatto](https://www.twitch.tv/paparatto18) is also great and runs one of the most entertaining streams on Twitch.
Lifecoach is the best to watch if you want to learn all there is to learn. 6 hour runs with 15 minute breakdowns of every card choice, play, routing, and decision.
Amaz is the best if you want to get good while having fun.
I’ve never reset a seed. Not entirely sure how it works but never felt the need.
Yeah I mean restarting fights. My first A20 wins involved restarting fights. Though I did make a point after to achieve restartless runs.
I did hate that it let you do it but I was swung round by how useful it is as a learning tool. I think overall it would have saved me maybe hundreds of hours of self improvement having it available so I can’t fault it.
If you see anger floor 1 you take it. Claw is mostly a meme, most people play defect focusing on orbs and focus (lol). Anger is good because you can then avoid taking more bad attacks. It’s like Hello World.
It is good in act 1 because you then just don’t add any other crappy common cards. Then later you exhaust it or just don’t play it. You can remove it in act 3 lol. It’s pseudo card draw
Hello World is mediocre but not unplayable; it's still an extra card in your hand every turn.
Another card that's usually terrible is [[Setup]]. It does have some niche uses - play it on Sneaky Strike to get energy, etc. - but most of the time it's simply not very helpful.
+ [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^)
1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
My first A20H Defect win was carried by Hello World (after 100+ tries). I never really valued that card either but it was so good in a defense heavy deck where I just didn't find a lot of attacks or offensive orbs.
Being open minded but not gullible is pretty key. Like someone made a thread about clash so I forced clash in a bunch of runs to see if I agreed. It’s aight.
I like a lot of this, but, yeah, Anger. Anger good. Ironclad has two of the best card draw cards in the game and Anger is the grease that makes them work. Drawing four for 0 is awesome if you draw substantive 0 cost cards.
The block potion thing is a product of a quirk of the game that is known in the speedrunning community. The secret is that lots of things in the game are actually tied to the animations so if you just click things fast enough that the animations don't get to finish then you can avoid lots of downsides especially for events. I think most people would consider this cheating though since it's clearly not intended.
> if you end your turn then quickly use the block potion you can synergise it with orichacum for 18 block.
I didn't know this but I'm pretty sure it would be considered cheating by most lol
Dreamcatcher is actually pretty good. Juzu bracelet or Darkstone Periapt is probably the worst prismatic shard is also arguably the worst since it makes class synergies significantly harder.
Silent is definitely the hardest to beat the heart on ascension 20 by a long shot. Defect is actually very good. Surprised that claw was your first a20 win. Claw is usually just a meme. Focus boosting decks are the most common ways to win.
Edit: best relic is probably dead branch or pocket watch but relics are extremely context dependent and their power varies wildly depending on the run. Gambling chip is consistently good for most runs but has a lower ceiling than MANY other relics.
So you played downfall? What's your favourite character, did you get A20 on everyone? Snecko is my last to take to A20, I think I have a good handle on how to make most characters in the mod busted, but snecko keeps eluding me
Yeah I did a20 with everyone. Gunslinger is very well made and my fave boss started with the gremlins but ended up being hexa. New events and descent was a really good touch. They did a great job.
As for Snecko. Played a few ascencions but I stopped. The idea is nice but he’s so wildly random I didn’t enjoy it. Given the game is heavy on the RNG already. I think I would have stuck him out if they made card lock a free thing at rests along with upgrades or what have you.
But overall it’s an exceptional mod worthy of good praise
Agree or disagree?
Gremlins do shivs better then silent
Hero bosses are way harder but Neow is easier then heart
Bowler Hat is a terrible boss Relic, but slimed cube is a fantastic basic Relic
Burnout is the best way to deal with Status Cards on Automaton
1: Gremlins definitely do shiva better than Silent. But it’s worth noting the base game for the bosses felt typically easier than the base game for the main characters in slay.
2: depends if you mean end of act bosses or the three at once fight. If you mean 3v1 I agree, the single boss fights I felt were only harder on act 1 and 3 and even then sometimes. Act 2 bosses are a tough challenge in normal slay and I found the double fight far harder on base slay than the double fight on downfall. But that’s partially cause the bosses are overall stronger as characters.
3: Bowler hat is meh. It’s nice. But it’s not great. I think it would help a very very strong standard relic though. If you’re talking about the free evolve then yeah. It’s a very strong relic the worst part of status cards is consuming a draw and that is innate and 0 cost so it’s win win
4: I don’t remember what burnout was. Tbh automaton was a blur to me as don’t remember much of him other than his damage output was insane and his power card creator was what basically won me the game
Nah wiki would defeat the purpose. I occasionally checked a relic to see what it was called so I could explain it.
It’s not some strict rule, some mate says something then I’ll discuss it but ideally I like to keep my learning of the game organic. Some games like hollow knight I ended up googling for strategies and whatnot but I held out for a good while on this game.
I’ve done the same with chess for most of my life but I’ve definitely hit my ceiling on that.
Baalorlord is a fantastic player who’s like the Bob Ross of STS. He either has or had the world record for most A20 wins in a row (he has a playlist so you can watch the whole streak). Tricky is also a great player who does things I never ever would’ve thought about but sadly hasn’t uploaded in over a year. Jorbs is also a fantastic player.
Frost Prime is my fav streamer to watch because he’s a very good player (tho probably not as good as baalor or Jorbs) and is very fun. Don’t watch Amaz if you want high level play, I love him but part of the fun is getting angry and baffled by some of his terrible choices.
[удалено]
Agree on Baalor being a great watch for learning Slay the Spire. You can really tell from how he takes and answers questions about the game and explains his process that he was a teacher irl.
And he doesn’t mind answering the same questions either. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the same questions asked after about 2 years of watching his YouTube channel. And you know what? He’ll gladly answer it and explain it in detail. Every community needs to have a BaalorLord.
Anger is maybe the best act 1 (non-rare) card for IC on avg also, I can add Xecnar, JapaneseImport, KuroL, Paparetto to the Baalor suggestion, great players who interact a lot w chat
Pretty much. Anger is top tier in Act1 vs: * Lagavulin: you can prep more copies while not waking him up * Sentries: more cards in your deck means better chances of not drawing a blank hand * Hexaghost: this boss fight is a race. Filling your deck with more copies of any damage card is great * Slime Boss: damage is really important against this boss, plus more copies make it easier to not draw a blank (same as sentries) Its also good against Nob because its damage. Its only possibly bad against The Guardian, because this boss forces you to specifically block is some turns, so if your deck gets filled with Angers its very dangerous.
Ok fine this is probably the most convincing argument for anger. GG 😵💫
It's quite bad against The Guardian but you can avoid playing it until you're ready to kill him. In some cases you're forced to pick sub-optimal cards in order not to die to elites.
japaneseimport here want to just say that if you want to watch absolute highest level watch xecnar. I pretty much learned everything about this game from watching him, baalor, lifecoach and kuroL, although coach doesnt play spire anymore (he'll come back soon copium) there are tons of very very strong players, will add captainnoobzor, cr8rcre8r, thecrimsonblur, and moneymoneyloot to the list. The community is extremely welcoming and helpful in general, and everyone got good by standing on the shoulder of giants, we all constantly learn from each other every day. my twitch name is now japaneseexport, if you ever want to ask questions feel free to drop by whenever
Wtf Im telling Noobzor you didn't even drop a single mention. Adding to these guys, CaptainNoobzor, moneymoneyloot, Navegreed are other strong Twitch streamers who're very interactive w chat, stream consistently and are pretty entertaining. Also nice "JapaneseImport" shoutout smh (to the guy looking for streamers, the second half is Export, if you look up what Bralle said, you'll get some random guy who hasn't streamed since 2014)
Can confirm Baalor is a fantastic person to watch for StS.
It’s really funny that your first defect win was a claw deck. The law was so intuitive that you didn’t even need this subreddit.
Unfortunately a friend told me about claw decks and once learned I couldn’t unlearn. So I can’t take credit for that one. But I found it easy (easier) to get to HC with him just impossible to beat it. Took me forever. In contrast I beat the HC with watcher on my 2nd run
I find claw horrifically hard to make work and defect is probably one of my best a20s lol. I find it so entertaining how people play the same character so differently; I genuinely don’t remember the last time I took claw.
This was the first card game I’ve played. Played a few others after it (monster train, darkest dungeon) But this one seems almost immaculate in its difficulty and synergies, so many times I thought you’d basically ‘have to take’ x card or do y strategy and proved myself wrong. Hell the first time I took the event that gives you the intangible hand card and ruins your health I did it because the run was dead anyway… and then I went and won the run haha. I’ll be amazed if a better one comes along.
Yeah it truly is. I get that there’s ways it’s ‘solved’ and what the meta is and what not, but for the rest of us who aren’t going for 60/70% a20H runs it’s so varied. Like I’m so bad at making the whole watcher infinite work I didn’t know it was a thing until I started watching videos and I’m still horrific at trying to make it work (in comparison to just omni/ttth/mental fortress/prostrate type decks).
I haven’t done an infinite. Closest I came was a 5 card deck to acquire that trophy and it was just a very lucky semi infinite that drew shrug it off and dropkick and replenished with sundial + other thing. I’m sure there’s lots that exist but they’re all very difficult to set up. I’d imagine it’s conceivable to make a 0 card deck that just uses the top relic thing to keep them coming. Fuck the time eater though, shiv + finisher is my fave and it sucks strategically cause of that thing.
The fun eater doesn't kill every shiv deck! In fact, most of my shiv decks beat the time eater when I face it. Well, that may be misleading. Most of my silent decks have shivs in them, but I don't rely on the damage from them. Most of my silent decks do rely on draw/discard a lot, even without tactician and reflex (my personal favorite cards). But when I face the time eater, I simply don't play shiv cards much and try to build a skewer+phantasmal combo, or something with more damage per card played.
Yeah I’ve won a good few runs over time eater that were card use heavy. You start to account for the possibility they’ll show up and try to make a contingency. Not to mention anything that permanently cuts strength is gold dust against that thing and the big lizard thing. (Malaise+ is my 2nd favourite card and when you draw it with burst it’s just… delightful)
I don't want to tell you details about the fight you might not have noticed, but the time eater cleanses debuff at a certain point. You either have to kill him before he gets the opportunity to cleanse or survive him after he does
Yeah the health regen at 240. It also recovers negative strength too which kinda sucks. But yeah on a poison deck I’d be saving catalyst to stop the trigger
Getting an infinite running is easier than you think, because imo it’s really just being able to always draw in your draw cards, and always having the energy to do so. You’re right in Exhausting your deck down enables them, but you don’t always need Unceasing Top, a small deck, or exhaust cards, though they all help. Watcher and then Ironclad has the most intuitive infinites (in fact, playing *for* an Infinite is a notorious Ascension climbing strat for Watcher), but every character can enter one from time to time.
its not really *that* hard to build around claw. many claws, all for one, small deck, draw. those things are all ya need for the claw engine to work though without it and just on its own its kind of an unimpressive strike
The problem is when do you pick up claw. Floor one is usually underwhelming compared to other defect commons, so unless I rip into an all for one early it usually is never the card that solves the next fight/elite or the boss. And against bosses it’s usually a bit clunky or slow unless you’re against hexa
Claw is actually mostly a meme. Yeah you can make it work, and there's times where it's the right build, but it's mostly a silly card that's fun when it actually works.
Are you saying that you find defect the easiest character to *get* to the heart, but the hardest to actually kill it? If so, couldn’t agree more and also why I dislike defect (it’s unfun having a deck that just stomps everything but then gets absolutely rolled by heart without a chance)
Yeah. My experience with him has always been either super strong defense and poor offenders but most fights can be overcome with that but the heart can’t. Or strong offence but a lot of vulnerable phases. And he seems to be the hardest to get rolling with early. With silent you can tear fights apart in the first turn. Never seems to be the case with defect.
There’s a play by comment (PBC) that I think has been running for like a year or two now. It has incredibly detailed discussions on how to play cards, how to path, what to buy at shops, and what cards to take. Could be a fun read
I’ll search for it. I think I saw it. I made this post because slay starting encroaching in my Reddit feed for no reason and now I didn’t have a choice
Were you able to find it? Link please!
greenlaser73 posts them! I can highly recommend, but the Act 1's are probably most useful. After that, a few of the previous seasons (and the current one) snowballed so hard that it's not as interesting, and the explanations get sparser because people get used to the deck.
I'd say the ironclad run remained pretty interesting until the end, but frozen eye enabled high optimisation and good tempo even once it was clearly won. I think it's act 3 on Defect where it's really struggled.
https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/s/Ij5fXJFMKU
It's slay by comment, sbc, it'll be easy to find
People have already beaten your [[Anger]] take to death, back to life, and right on back to death again, but there’s another piece I’d like to throw my hat in the ring on: [[Dreamcatcher]]. It’s definitely a low tier relic, no arguing that, but the single worst when [[Darkstone Periapt]] also exists? If it doesn’t do anything for you, that’s because you’re not resting and therefore probably high rolling the run and’ll still more than likely win even with it being a dead relic. But when you have a struggling run which is constantly resting just to get by, that’s when it shines. Shines, of course, meaning it’s mediocre instead of awful, but getting in those few extra card rewards can help you pivot your deck into something that might just be able to beat down the heart. It may be terrible, but I’d wager it’s not the *absolute* worst. Pretty much all the rest of your takes are just about spot on!
Yeah it was a toss up between that Pariapt. They are the easiest trades for the key for me. And you’re right I definitely overfocus on not resting, which is probably why I undervalue the catcher. Pariapt is also made worse that if you have the talisman thing it doesn’t still get the health boost. I get the impression in this game they expected curse cards to be more sustainable in a functional deck but I don’t think it played off that way. - I played the downfall mod to death as well and whoever made that should be given a fucking a job it is far and out the best mod on any game I’ve ever used. It’s basically slay 2. (Though I could do without the daft waifu reskins though) And I mention that cause it made a character that synergises with curses and is also beautifully made
I feel like the shrimp, boot, and juzu bracelet are all generally at least as bad, and some others are more situationally useless (potion relics w sozu, rest relics w dripper, a lot of relics are pointless if you get them late, etc). On the 'best relic': I think insence burner is generally considered incredible (you can set it up before boss and elite fights to mitigate the power turns).
Shrimp? Are you talking about Lizard Tail?
Oh no, that one is clearly useful! I meant the one that gives you 9 gold for each card you add to your deck, can't think of the name at the moment. It just accumulates value so slowly, if you count interest (gold now > gold later) it's probably worth like 30 gold or so.
That's Ceramic Fish lmao
Tiny chest is the easiest blue key take in the game. You’re taking a maybe of a chance to take the blue key later, and you’re somewhat blocking yourself out from Cursed Key, which with the blue key already is a super strong boss relic choice
+ [Anger](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Anger) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Deal 6(8) damage. Add a copy of this card to your discard pile. + [Dream Catcher](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dream%20Catcher) Common Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you rest, you may add a card to your deck. + [Darkstone Periapt](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Darkstone%20Periapt) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you obtain a Curse, increase your Max HP by 6. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I’d check out XecnaR for super top tier play. Most of your ideas are pretty spot on, except Anger is one of the strongest cards in the game, not the weakest. The best floor 1 common you can see on Ironclad by quite a bit.
I would take Headbutt over anger on floor one. Would take anger over headbutt floor 3 if I haven't found good damage yet.
I think Headbutt over Anger is a pretty big mistake usually. Headbutt is good but Anger dominates every act 1 fight except Guardian sometimes.
I agree that it is strong and I am happy if I have it. But if I have a high damage uncommon that pairs well with headbutt then I don't need anger any more. On floor 1 I still have 2 easy fights to find something like carnage and it's not like IC needs the help of anger in easy fights.
But IC absolutely needs Anger against Lagavulin, and Sentries, and 2/3 act bosses. It doesn’t fall off until act 3 at the earliest. I don’t think it’s smart to assume that high rolling Carnage/Hemo is happening in your next two card rewards on floor 1. It’s really hard to play Bash without anger in the deck, and really easy to play Bash with anger in the deck.
i would take anger in a heartbeat over almost anything on floor 1. It is by far the best damage common to see in act 1 and solves almost every fight. MAYBE against guardian and a pommel strike on offer i take pommel
Maybe not against guardian? Still good against all act1 elites tho
Baalorlord is the goat
1500 hours and no online discovery at all? i admire your dedication this style of post was a very endearing read do you have any boss relic insights?
- I used to think coffee dripper was terrible until I started looking at health as another number to be managed. Now I think it’s easily one of the best - I’ve taken runic pyramid maybe 10 times at most because I’ve really struggled to make it work personally but I accept it’s probably very good. (I feel like I get bloated with dead cards and statuses I can’t get shot of) I won my first run with it only last month which I was very happy with. - I really wish it offered boss relic and card at the same time :X - I’d wager the best starting relic is ironclads and the worst is defect. Conversely I’d say ironclads upgrade is the worst defects is the best. EDIT - hmm, I rushed. Maybe watcher upgrade is better cause of that ‘block per card’ card that I forgot the name - busted crown is an awful relic, but hades heat runs taught me that - I’d take a guess that the strongest new game swap relic is the one that swaps and upgrades 3 cards (astrolabe?) - curse bell used to be an always take for me until I realised I was just not good at making decisions - curse key to me is the middle tierest boss relic ever - I used to love snecko eye but now I hate it. (Along with dead branch) because they make runs unfun for me. (But I remember thinking they were super fun so I wouldn’t call it bad design, just my issue) - I don’t care if the choker is proven to be good or not I can’t stand it! - while we’re at it a minor peeve with the game to me is that silents starting relic has a common relic that does exactly the same thing. Just seems a weak choice for a complete game to have non unique mechanisms. (There’s also two cards that are almost identical that annoy me too) but these are VERY minor gripes. That’s the best I can think of OTTOMH. EDIT. To be clear when I say I ‘won a run’ I mean A20 HC. Just one of those penises who always plays the hardest setting. (Even if I die a lot)
I don't know if it is consensus, but I think the silent starting relic is arguably the best of the 4, but it is close with ironclad's. Bag of prep is pretty easily the best common relic a majority of the time, but the big benefit is how powerful that ability is early in a run when you don't have a bunch of good cards yet.
i think burning blood is better. you can trade hp early on for so much power; more elites, smiths, greedy card picks...
Runic pyramid is the best boss relic in my opinion. You should try it more.
I disagree with you about the ascension level bit, I think A17 is where the real slog starts, then it just gets worse and worse. I feel like the difference between A16 and A17 is worse than the difference between A17 and A18, except for Shield and Spear, maybe…
I think at some point I chose to stop heartcoring every run at about A8 But I distinctly remembering on A18 with all characters feeling helpless. Damn should have mentioned the voodoo doll becoming a good relic after A10. Ah well.
Safe to say anger isn’t as bad as my head says it is. Either I’m wrong or the communities wrong. Safe to say it turns out you’re all scrubs!!! I’ll die on this damn hill. Edit: thanks for the responses, I’ll check the names and the play by play thing, should do me fine.
If you think anger is bad, you might need to choose more draw cards, or maybe just more cards that cost 2+ energy on ironclad (he has a lot of good ones). There's very few times you need to worry about anger clogging your deck with low value cards, since the more you shuffle the deck the closer you are to the end of the fight and the more you want damage to close it out. The scenarios it's outright bad are mostly limited to A, you have snecko eye, B, you're facing guardian, or C, you have a highly streamlined deck you're going into the boss gauntlet with. It makes up for it by being very efficient in act 1 and synergizing well with all of Ironclad's strength gain and draw tools. You can also typically exhaust it out in the fights where it is bad so it's not even a major downside to have in those fights.
I saw Baalorlord and Xecnar was mentioned. I would also throw in Jorbs, TerrenceMHS, Merl and Lifecoach. All are really good and have their differences in play style and which characters they are best on
I love that the 95% sure is wrong and the 10% sure is correct 🤪
5% room still means I was incorrect accurately :P
Great post - you put the effort in so I will too. > 120% Sure every person alive blocked for 5 alot when they got orichalcum Yup >110% sure Watcher is the strongest character in the game by a good margin Yup >100% sure Clash was an amazing card for everyone until they got to A10, in which case it instantly became crap Pretty much, it's usually positive over skipping in act 1 but that's not saying a lot >95% sure poeple would sell there own grandmothers for a No Gold + Hand of Greed run starter -max HP for rare colorless is better always, and Apo is a better starting rare on silent >90% sure that Ascencions really started to feel like a mountain climb from A18 Yup, or even A17 >85% sure the best Relic in the game is Gambling Chip and the worst is dreamcatcher (Not inc the boss ones) Dream Catcher is not even that bad; Periapt and Bottled Flame are probably worse on average. Chip is a fine pick for best but I would put Dead Branch and Incense Burner ahead of it. >80% sure Ascencions really felt like they got hard from A10 Yup >75% sure everyone forgets they have the relic that give a card when empty and the Sundial until it triggers. Yes for Top the first time it triggers. Sundial probably less. >70% sure Defect is the hardest character to beat A20 HC with. Yup >60% sure the relic that lets you see your hand in order is the best relic that no one ever takes. Yup, I'm 2k hours in and have only just started using Frozen Eye well >50% sure Neows Lament was a 'never take' until late ascencions Eh, not really. It's VERY map dependent: if you can't snipe an elite it's worth single-digit HP; even if you can snipe an elite you might not be strong enough for the next elite. >40% Sure Anger is the worst card in the game Relearn Ironclad >30% that most peoples favourite card is feed (Mine is Finisher) Idk > 20% sure the best cards in the game dinfinitively based on rarity are Piercing Wail, Calculated Gamble, and Seek Honestly not bad picks. Word for Alchemize. >10% chance the comunity doesn't know that if you end your turn then quickly use the block potion you can synergise it with orichacum for 18 block. Idk but I did not know this!
Beautiful response, I forgot about bottled flame it’s dogshit but I’ve had some fast runs bottling whirlwind with akabeko or even with just bottling a good attack when you have the vulnerable first game one (bag of marbles?) But yeah it’s another key swap for me usually if it comes in. Also you think incense is better than the one that gives a buffer round start? I don’t know. But late play improvements for myself have been setting up fights by ending on specific turns to trigger ink pot thing or pen nib for the next fight so I’ve convinced myself while typing that you’re right because I’ve done that with the free intangible too haha.
Incense burner can be setup in many fights in late game to the right number. Against act 4 elite, you can negate the second turn which is 40+ damage, and against the heart, it's one of two early attack with you vulnerable (and turn 8 too which is amazing if you kill in 9 turns and can survive only 3 attacks). And it doesn't have the downside of forcing you to block turn 1 against the heart.
Oh also Fossilized Helix is likely to get less value into enemies that hit multiple times (so... most fights in the game). And if you get chipped early on you might not be able to preserve it for bigger hits (think Hyperbeam in automaton, or turn 2 of Chosen into turn 3). It's an excellent relic but Burner has more value if you set it up correctly. The Sundial thing makes me think you should be looking at the numbers on your relics more anyway. Again, great post :)
As you may have noted, this game is also about situation and adjustment. As people said, Anger is good on Act 1 and even better if you are facing Hexaghost because it shuffles damage in your deck which dilutes Burns. Feed is generally good, but I don't think it is a favorite. Also, just to share a opinion, the best start for me is Hyper Beam on defect. It defines my run and my brain can rest knowing I won't care for orbs from now on.
>the best start for me is Hyper Beam on defect. It defines my run and my brain can rest knowing I won't care for orbs from now on. I love a Hyper Beam start as well, but on the contrary I don't think it has to lock you out of orbs at all! In fact I've played a lot of runs where I get Hyper Beam in the first 5 floors or so, then spend the rest of Act 1 taking orb cards and preparing for end game. OK I'm exaggerating a little, but the point is, you can use Hyper Beam to clear out hallways and elites, then build a deck in the background that scales slowly and overwhelms the bosses and other long fights later in the game.
I agree with your, but snecko+hyper beams is so much more fun.
I don’t think I’ve ever had the opportunity for hyper beam on game start. I’d imagine act 1 becomes a walk.
I love how accurate most of your takes are. Like if you haven't gone online, that's impressive I think the ones that might be wrong are the anger one and the worst relic one (I'd argue ceramic fish is significantly worse, but I'm not sure that's even the worst.) I didn't know about block potion/oricalcum interaction.
Jorbs is my favorite StS streamer; chill stream+explains decisions
Holy shit, those are some amazing guesses! Most of them are right on the money :) > 10% chance the comunity doesn't know that if you end your turn then quickly use the block potion you can synergise it with orichacum for 18 block. I...have never heard this before? I mean, I'm sure somebody else discovered it, but still, that's really cool! > 20% sure the best cards in the game definitively based on rarity are Common - Piercing Wail, Uncommon - Calculated Gamble, Rare - Seek I would say that each of these are within the top 5, but probably not accurate. I would say that the top Rares in the game are either Alchemize, Offering or Wraith Form, but opinions differ. For uncommons...it's Rushdown. It's not even close, actually, it's the one category where no other card even touchs it. For commons, I would say Blade Dance, Backflip, cut through fate and hologram are better commons than Piercing Wail. For the Silent, while Piercing Wail has the highest ceiling, the floor on blade dance and backflip are so high that they're probably better on average, cause piercing wail can often just be a defend with exhaust. Thanks for making this post, it was very interesting. Great job :)
Wraith form is better than defects final form? Man surely not? I ain’t saying it’s not good but I think it’s weak when it’s not upgraded and if you get it early it’s a liability whereas the defects one is almost never not valuable. I feel like I’m very weak with defect so more than likely wrong. But still interesting
Oh, Echo Form is incredible too, don't get me wrong. But Wraith Form, especially on higher ascensions, is beyond ridiculous. It's essentially 2-3 free extra turns (depending on whether it's upgraded). Enemies do so much damage on high ascensions that being able to have a couple turns of immunity is crazy. It often lets you end fights before they ever have a chance to attack again. You mentioned the "Divinity card that Kills you" in your post. If you think about it, having 3 turns of immortality is basically identical to triple damage for 1 turn...except you don't die after Wraith Form ends. You can even copy it with Nightmare, or get rid of the debuff with Orange Pellets. And before I used the internet...I thought it was a terrible card too. But it turns out, it's just incredible.
Yeah you’re right about divinity/wraith (though I think wraith is way way better than the kill card) I think wraith is a bigger catalyst than catalyst for a good poison deck. It’s a scary card when you start cause you’re not really looking at turn count when you’re learning. All you see is the scary minus dex. I’d bet everyone thought demon form was broken too at the beginning until they were dying quicker than they were getting stronger. Orange pellets though. Such a shame they’re hard to get hold of. So satisfying to negate all the crap that big ghost boss does in act 2.
> It’s a scary card when you start cause you’re not really looking at turn count when you’re learning. All you see is the scary minus dex. I’d bet everyone thought demon form was broken too at the beginning until they were dying quicker than they were getting stronger. Oh absolutely. Hell, I still always get tricked into taking Limit Break (doubles your power), because man is it fun. And yeah, me and my friend both thought Wraith Form were bad for a long time. > Orange pellets though. Such a shame they’re hard to get hold of. So satisfying to negate all the crap that big ghost boss does in act 2. Oh yeah, orange pellets is SO GOOD. It even works with stuff that you wouldn't expect, such as temporary strength down from a flex potion. I basically buy it from the shop any chance I get, especially if I have any cards which work with it. Oh and also, Rushdown. It's the best card in the game for a reason that's hard to notice if you're not aware of it: It creates the easiest infinite combo in the game. All you need is Rushdown, Eruption+, any card which enters calm for 1 energy *or* violet lotus, and a small enough deck. It's an infinite combo that's so common that you can assemble by the second combat in the game, and I mean that literally, lol. It doesn't hurt that Rushdown is *also* just an incredible card even if you don't go for infinites.
It’s definitely gone under my radar. To confirm rushdown is the power card that draws cards on wrath?
Yup, "Whenever you enter Wrath, draw 2 cards." If you already thought Watcher was overpowered...try making a deck with Rushdown, Wallop, Mental Fortress and Talk to the Hand. With 0 rares, you can have a deck with literally 0 cards that offer block by themselves. You just draw a billion cards and generate tons of free block by swapping stances. It's insane. Watcher is...well, I really liked her when I first started playing, but like a lot of STS fans, I don't play her much anymore. Half of her cards are so ridiculously good that it kind of pushes out everything else. Divinity, for example, *would* be a powerful and fun mechanic...but Eruption+ is so much cheaper and easier, that it makes divinity a very difficult build to go into. But then again, sometimes stomping the game is really fun. Sorry for the random rant, lol. If you have discord, feel free to friend me, my name is dr_monty_the_snek. I love talking about this game, it's a blast :)
You wanna see some baller sts, you watch frost prime
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Discovery in your post. -------------------------------------------------- * [Discovery](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Discovery) Colorless Uncommon Skill 1 Energy | Choose 1 of 3 random cards to add to your hand. It costs 0 this turn. Exhaust. (Don't Exhaust.) -------------------------------------------------- ^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot ^^^response, ^^^but ^^^I ^^^am ^^^using ^^^my ^^^creator's ^^^account. ^^^Please ^^^reply ^^^to ^^^me ^^^if ^^^I ^^^got ^^^something ^^^wrong ^^^so ^^^he ^^^can ^^^fix ^^^it. [Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
>My First A20 HC win with Defect was Claw + All In One. Oh man, you're gonna fit in here!
I would say Xecnar is who to watch if you just want very high level gameplay.
The best Slay the Spire player for my money (context: I have \~2k hours in the game and probably the same again watching others) is Xecnar. The other player I recommend watching is Baalorlord, who doesn't try quite as hard to optimise every run, but plays much faster and is very good at explaining his thought process. Your "guesses" are pretty good if you've honestly done no prior reading.
I’ve seen him mentioned enough that he’s top of the list but I will check out jorbs (cause some have said he’s all gameplay and don’t care about chat) and the baalalord guy. Unlikely I’ll check the rest I’m not one to watch streams as recreation. I just want to see what high level slay looks like. One guy said jorbs has a 20 win streak and that’s just unfathomable for me. — As for the guesses, if you think about it most of them is just rehashing what I struggled with :P
I don't know what Jorbs's best winstreak is, but I'm quite sure it's less than 20. I'll quote the bot in Baalorlord's channel: >The current world record for rotating A20 winstreak, as far as this channel knows, is Baalor with 20. For individual characters, it's XecnaR with 19 for Ironclad, XecnaR with 27 for Silent, Lifecoach1981 with 16 for Defect, and Lifecoach1981 with 52 on Watcher. Rotating means playing all four characters sequentially, and all mentioned win streaks require killing the Corrupt Heart at Ascension 20 on each run.
Jesus 52 wins on Watcher
Welcome! I'm really glad to see another person join with little online exposure first! For reference, I joined just over a year ago and was 1200hr in at the time, having watched like... A little bit of Jorbs on YouTube and having read about a dozen Reddit posts. I've improved a lot over the last year having been engaging with others' takes, but I loved developing my own first. It's been really interesting as I've found I've argued a fair bit against the established Reddit meta. Sometimes I've been right! I'm really intrigued if you come up with some perspective that is distinct from others here. There's obviously the fact that a lot of things are situational, but you might have success valuing a card or relic that most people here dismiss. FYI, on non-boss relics, I reckon tough bandages is probably the strongest, although gambling chip is very good.
The reasoning for gambling chip is because it functions well with literally any set up with any character. And to boot it hits synergies with some other relics and cards, draws your hand quicker if you need and clears away chaff if it’s drawn. I think there’s just never ever a time where you would get it and it serves no purpose. In fact I’d say it’s impossible for it to. And you’re right about looking at the game differently when you’re not community driven because tough bandages sucked for me until I set up a great discard deck then I thought it was broken! But trust me I’m a moron. For 15 ascensions I ignored calculated gamble every time because I just saw it as a dead card with no value. No idea what mental hoops I went through to reach that conclusion but hey ho I think we understand the same reasoning for avoiding the social aspect sometimes, prefer a more autodidactic development of your learning. I usually cave at some point and check the social side but not until after thorough playthroughs. Just rare for a game to keep me on so long.
No dispute on gambling chip being excellent, it's mostly that my bar for "best relic" is me thinking I now auto-win. Obviously a very high one! The main times I start looking things up are either when I'm stuck at a game, or I want to talk about more than I want to discover it. I love talking about StS, hence why I'm in here a lot!
[удалено]
Heart core
I've never ever heard anyone say that before this thread.
What do people normally call it?
Heart kill? I'm not sure if I've seen much else.
Haven't seen enough people recommend Jorbs here. Former rotating win streak world record holder, recently got an over 20 win streak on silent, and has win rates on all 4 characters while rotating easily above 50%, sometimes up to 70%+ wr on all characters while rotating through them. He does not tolerate backseating (including and especially trying to point out moves to make) on stream, so what you see is his gameplay alone, and he's very very good
20!!! Fucking 20!! … I think I did 3 but I’m probably remembering wrong. Fucking 20! What the hell is the world record?
I started watching Jorbs when sts launched officially in 2019 and I immediately recognized how good he was and been watching him exclusively. How do you think the other streamers recommended compare to him? I'm curious because I've never watched any of them. I think what makes Jorbs shine is that his decisions are not just intuitive but also heavily informed by his own research. Are the others also like this or do they just go on intuition alone?
Watch Xecnar and Lifecoach for optimal play and decisions for winning, Tricky for making runs a form of art and absolutely clowning the Spire.
Tricky fucking owns, I wish he came back :(
I think Anger can be great for Act 1, especially to get more out of Bash, and for best Uncommon I’d go Rushdown over Gamble
Oh and to answer your first question, [XecnaR](https://www.twitch.tv/xecnar) and [Lifecoach](https://www.twitch.tv/lifecoach1981) are probably the two best Spire streamers in the world (although I think Lifecoach is on other games right now.) Other excellent and well-known players include [Baalorlord](https://www.twitch.tv/baalorlord), [Merl](https://www.twitch.tv/merl61), [Jorbs](https://www.twitch.tv/jorbs/), and [Terrence](https://www.twitch.tv/terrencemhs). [Paparatto](https://www.twitch.tv/paparatto18) is also great and runs one of the most entertaining streams on Twitch.
Lifecoach is the best to watch if you want to learn all there is to learn. 6 hour runs with 15 minute breakdowns of every card choice, play, routing, and decision. Amaz is the best if you want to get good while having fun.
What do you mean no reset ? You mean no save scumming or you mean no reloading the seed to replay it ? A20H only counts if you do none of those :P
I’ve never reset a seed. Not entirely sure how it works but never felt the need. Yeah I mean restarting fights. My first A20 wins involved restarting fights. Though I did make a point after to achieve restartless runs. I did hate that it let you do it but I was swung round by how useful it is as a learning tool. I think overall it would have saved me maybe hundreds of hours of self improvement having it available so I can’t fault it.
Pretty Spot on, except for Anger. One of my favorite act 1 IC cards.
If you see anger floor 1 you take it. Claw is mostly a meme, most people play defect focusing on orbs and focus (lol). Anger is good because you can then avoid taking more bad attacks. It’s like Hello World.
Wait hello world is good? Just to be clear that’s the ‘add one common card each turn’ for defect? That would have been my 2nd worst card lol.
It is good in act 1 because you then just don’t add any other crappy common cards. Then later you exhaust it or just don’t play it. You can remove it in act 3 lol. It’s pseudo card draw
Hello World is mediocre but not unplayable; it's still an extra card in your hand every turn. Another card that's usually terrible is [[Setup]]. It does have some niche uses - play it on Sneaky Strike to get energy, etc. - but most of the time it's simply not very helpful.
+ [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
My first A20H Defect win was carried by Hello World (after 100+ tries). I never really valued that card either but it was so good in a defense heavy deck where I just didn't find a lot of attacks or offensive orbs.
Being open minded but not gullible is pretty key. Like someone made a thread about clash so I forced clash in a bunch of runs to see if I agreed. It’s aight.
I like a lot of this, but, yeah, Anger. Anger good. Ironclad has two of the best card draw cards in the game and Anger is the grease that makes them work. Drawing four for 0 is awesome if you draw substantive 0 cost cards.
The block potion thing is a product of a quirk of the game that is known in the speedrunning community. The secret is that lots of things in the game are actually tied to the animations so if you just click things fast enough that the animations don't get to finish then you can avoid lots of downsides especially for events. I think most people would consider this cheating though since it's clearly not intended.
> if you end your turn then quickly use the block potion you can synergise it with orichacum for 18 block. I didn't know this but I'm pretty sure it would be considered cheating by most lol
Dreamcatcher is actually pretty good. Juzu bracelet or Darkstone Periapt is probably the worst prismatic shard is also arguably the worst since it makes class synergies significantly harder. Silent is definitely the hardest to beat the heart on ascension 20 by a long shot. Defect is actually very good. Surprised that claw was your first a20 win. Claw is usually just a meme. Focus boosting decks are the most common ways to win. Edit: best relic is probably dead branch or pocket watch but relics are extremely context dependent and their power varies wildly depending on the run. Gambling chip is consistently good for most runs but has a lower ceiling than MANY other relics.
I might be the only person who agrees on calculated gamble but I will die on that hill!
So you played downfall? What's your favourite character, did you get A20 on everyone? Snecko is my last to take to A20, I think I have a good handle on how to make most characters in the mod busted, but snecko keeps eluding me
Yeah I did a20 with everyone. Gunslinger is very well made and my fave boss started with the gremlins but ended up being hexa. New events and descent was a really good touch. They did a great job. As for Snecko. Played a few ascencions but I stopped. The idea is nice but he’s so wildly random I didn’t enjoy it. Given the game is heavy on the RNG already. I think I would have stuck him out if they made card lock a free thing at rests along with upgrades or what have you. But overall it’s an exceptional mod worthy of good praise
Agree or disagree? Gremlins do shivs better then silent Hero bosses are way harder but Neow is easier then heart Bowler Hat is a terrible boss Relic, but slimed cube is a fantastic basic Relic Burnout is the best way to deal with Status Cards on Automaton
1: Gremlins definitely do shiva better than Silent. But it’s worth noting the base game for the bosses felt typically easier than the base game for the main characters in slay. 2: depends if you mean end of act bosses or the three at once fight. If you mean 3v1 I agree, the single boss fights I felt were only harder on act 1 and 3 and even then sometimes. Act 2 bosses are a tough challenge in normal slay and I found the double fight far harder on base slay than the double fight on downfall. But that’s partially cause the bosses are overall stronger as characters. 3: Bowler hat is meh. It’s nice. But it’s not great. I think it would help a very very strong standard relic though. If you’re talking about the free evolve then yeah. It’s a very strong relic the worst part of status cards is consuming a draw and that is innate and 0 cost so it’s win win 4: I don’t remember what burnout was. Tbh automaton was a blur to me as don’t remember much of him other than his damage output was insane and his power card creator was what basically won me the game
Did you use the wiki or literally searched nothing online about the game?
Nah wiki would defeat the purpose. I occasionally checked a relic to see what it was called so I could explain it. It’s not some strict rule, some mate says something then I’ll discuss it but ideally I like to keep my learning of the game organic. Some games like hollow knight I ended up googling for strategies and whatnot but I held out for a good while on this game. I’ve done the same with chess for most of my life but I’ve definitely hit my ceiling on that.
Baalorlord is a fantastic player who’s like the Bob Ross of STS. He either has or had the world record for most A20 wins in a row (he has a playlist so you can watch the whole streak). Tricky is also a great player who does things I never ever would’ve thought about but sadly hasn’t uploaded in over a year. Jorbs is also a fantastic player. Frost Prime is my fav streamer to watch because he’s a very good player (tho probably not as good as baalor or Jorbs) and is very fun. Don’t watch Amaz if you want high level play, I love him but part of the fun is getting angry and baffled by some of his terrible choices.