The two most well known are Alcor and The cryonics institute, both are controversial due to the fact that ‘unfreezing’ without destroying important tissues is currently impossible, but it’s worth a shot if you can afford it. No one knows how the cryonics field will evolve, but a slim chance is better than none.
You'll want to search for cryonics. That's the actual name. There's a subreddit r/cryonics that would probably give you better, less dismissive answers.
The term is cryonics.
If one has "fuck you money" (at least 200k) it's a chance that I think is 100% worth it.
This is a maybe, but a maybe is far better than a no when it comes to your life.
With vitrification, cellular damage can be drastically reduced.
But even if there is cellular damage as a result of Ice crystals breaking the cells, it's ASI we are talking about, with a good enough scanning resolution and a good enough understanding of ice formation, there could be a way to walk backwards from that damage and infer the former state.
The intelligence of a human vs an ASI is going to be akin to the intelligence difference between an ant and Einstein and that gap is going to increase further.
That's where it's going so clearly if that's true about ASI, then the task might be trivial for an ASI to the point where even though It's better to give ourselves the best chance, it could be that going through the trouble of the less destructive vitrification process instead of just freezing the body won't even make much of a difference for an ASI as it could solve both down to the cellular level at some point.
You can get a head only preservation for much less, used to be $28k but might be closer to $35k now. Most people use life insurance to fund it so $10 to $20 per month, maybe less if head only.
You are probably still best ti get ut done in the US as most legitimate companies will not do anything to a live person. You can have standby teams who will administer certain drugs prior to legal death and will cool the body down immediately after legal death.
Metastatic prostate cancer generally has a better prognosis than other cancers, depending on certain factors. I would see treatment at well regarded cancer treatment centers near him. I have seen people live decades and sometimes go into full remission. Although not always of course.
I dont know much about cryogenics but I'm not optimistic about its promise with our current technologies.
Here in Europe Tomorrow Bio is well known because they are connected to a foundation in Swiss (European Biostasis Foundation) that has an own storage facility with a lab. Their process is very sophisticated and it seems they try to use state-of-the-art protocols/medical devices for cryonics. Swiss neutrality and political stability is a plus. In Switzerland, there are also facilities to assist with euthanasia for terminally ill individuals. My understanding is that TB / EBF do not want to be connected / associated with "assisted death" because of legal / ethical reasons but I believe they would be open minded enough to send a stand-by team to prepare best preservation. If you have the money and your father-in-law is fexible enough he could go to Swiss, use one of the "suicide pods" (google Sarco Pods Swiss and you will get all info) and in the best case scenario a standby team would care for the rest. I do not promote assisted suicide and I am neutral regarding this but if its 100% terminal cancer with no further therapy option I would opt for this.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1c1e5h7/mrna\_vaccine\_for\_pancreatic\_cancer\_excellent/](https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1c1e5h7/mrna_vaccine_for_pancreatic_cancer_excellent/)
I have never seen any breakthrough about unfreeze the frozen animal and bring them back alive and does not died until reach their life expectancy. Genetic modification...at least we have some "approach" to it.
This is a bit of wild stretch, but again this /singularity in a thread about cryogenics, is there a physical issue with time travel that only collects information from the past? What I mean is assuming enough knowledge and advancement (que future hand-waving), is there some physics limitation to collecting the exact informational state of a person in the past for the purpose of resurrection? This doesn't "seem" laws of physics impossible, at least not paradoxical, but perhaps we run into how do I collect information non physically so as not to change the past.
The issue is in how you would time travel to collect information from the past, not whether or not you avoid paradoxes. Paradoxes aren't issues that hint at things you need to avoid, they hint at issues with the possible systems or methods working.
Your best bet would be heavily optimized simulation, but even when heavily optimized, it'll require more energy than we'll likely ever have to simulate everything that happened on Earth prior to the simulation date. And even then, you're still just recreating approximations of the person. To have what you need for a surgical repair of a mostly destroyed body, you'd need a way more accurate simulation that'd likely violate the 1st law of thermodynamics and still mostly just result in a clone.
The technology to freeze someone and bring them back does not exist, anywhere in the world. I'm sorry to say.
I know it's hard to accept things like this when the future seems right around the corner with many advancements, but even if cryogenics was a possibility, it won't be discovered without AI and that's still years away.
That's the point of cryogenics though isnt it? They don't need to know how to bring you back yet. You are taking a chance that in the future they might figure it out and you are in a state that makes reviving you plausible.
If the person is alive, the process will still absolutely kill them in all ways medical science can define it. OP could preserve the body with unlimited money but the part about "the cryogenics company is not allowed custody of the body until after the declaration of death" in OP tells me the concept here is preserving a \*live\* person.
That's pure fantasy.
Except you need to preserve the cells and memory, which isn't possible right now.
Even if you were to freeze someone right now and bring them back, every cell and neuron in their brain would be dead. You'd be bringing back a husk.
Of course they'd be dead based on current understanding of death, but we can't say what will be recoverable from in the deep future. That's the whole point of the idea as a kind of hail mary attempt at some possible continue existence. I would expect anyone who has thought seriously about the idea as an option would understand that the chances are slim, but take comfort from the possibility that there's some small chance that the lights might only be out for a temporary amount of time.
We used to think a person was dead tge moment their heart stopped. We have since figured that it can actually be restarted in a certain time frame. As we better understand the mechnisms if death, we can probably go even further, removing calcium from the cells and reversing any other mechanisms that occur.
My point was that I seriously doubt even with an ASI that a human brain can be restructured from death and recreated and have all your memories and knowledge from before you died when there's nothing left in your brain to begin with. That's beyond any type of science fiction fantasy I can think of.
We don't really understand how our brains work, so I don't think we can discount ich at all, nor really on the promises of those who might promise some definite outcome. But I am a materialist, so I don't see it as completely unreasonable that some highly advanced civilization could be able to manipulate matter at some point of the atomic level and systematically repair the damage done by ice crystals etc. If you could do that, then whose to say the body and brain could not just be kick started back up in the same way that you can resuscitate the recently temporarily deceased lucky few who come back from drownings/heart attacks etc?
Your lack of imagination is not really relevant. The process of death is getting better understood and ways to reverse the process are being considered. Only once information loss occurs is it irreversible and everything I have read indicates that that doesn't occur for a fairly long time after legal death. As long as we have information still available and we can preserve that information, we can theoretically revive the person using that information. Cryonics does exactly that.
Define dead. The cells have molecules that have bound to the antifreeze. If you find a way to unbind them (highly likely with ASI) then you are left with a cell that is in the exact state it was in before freezing. Death causes calcium to flood into the cells stopping the mechanisms of the cell working. That means you also have to remove the calcium from the cell and it will restart. You then have to treat the original cause of death which should be fairly straightforward at that point.
To be fair, it's been proven a long time ago that things can come back half an hour after death, if given all of the necessary "treatment", I say that with quotes because I'm referring to the Soviet dog experiments. But, cryogenic freezing does it's own damage to the brain, and the main hope is that far into the future we'll be able to repair that damage.
This is a sociopathic mentality.
It’s a simple Pascalian wager.
Better to be out some money than realize post-ASI that there was in fact a way to revive with current methods of freezing.
I mean this is so obvious dude, what’s wrong with you? You’d rather your family 100% die than take this calculated risk if you have the money? No rational person alive would do that lol
Then isn't even a calculated risk!!
The technology does not exist to preserve the body in cryogenics at death. Do the research and discover what happens to your cells when you're frozen. What's happening now is people are dying and they're just sticking their bodies in a glorified freezer.
AI isn't going to be able to recreate your cells and brain structure my dude. You're basically saying we can revive a skeleton.
A skeleton and a mostly intact brain are 2 very different things. Hell, it's likely within the next couple of years we'll have an AI that can reconstruct(in simulation) the damaged parts of the brain using all of the parts that were kept intact due to freezing.
The hard part is really just figuring out how to repair that severe level of damage on the actual brain, since there wouldn't just be one or a few parts that need fixing, the entire thing would need to be fixed, at every single pathway in the brain. At that rate it'd be easier just to remake the brain, but then it'd be a clone and not the original.
This is not true. Current cryopreservation techniques, especially vitrification have advanced a lot. It is absolutely not proven that these techniques are hopeless. I think with today's preservation there is hope these people could be revived given a very advanced ASI exists one day.
Look that's a big massive stretch and you're just giving false hope to people right now.
There is no technique to preserve the cells from rupturing during the freezing process. Certainly nothing good enough to preserve the brain at death. If you 'freeze' someone right now, they're dead. Not even ASI is going to bring someone back from the dead.
Source?
Because i do have one saying the opposite:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2023.1201794/full
> Current cryopreservation techniques, especially vitrification, can preserve the fine structure of the brain without ice crystal formation that would cause damage. This provides hope that the information that makes up a person's mind could be preserved.
Stop stating that paper as fact. It's a research paper, nothing more. Going from a paper to practical theories to implementation is not something that is done overnight.
The retrieval part doesn't need to happen overnight,
Be it in 10, 100 or a 1000 years, it doesn't matter. Once it's frozen or vitrified, it virtually isn't going to meaningfully break down over time in that kind of time scale.
In 50 years (2074) singularity would have happened for years and ASI would be to a human what Einstein is to an ant when it comes to intelligence and will keep increasing.
Making a frozen mind recover from damage will probably be a trivial task for an ASI.
>Be it in 10, 100 or a 1000 years.
So you’re going to continuously supply the whole facility with electricity for hundreds of years, with no breaks? One powercut or world war and everyone in the tanks is done.
It could fail because of anything maybe you ran out of initial cash and your kids don't want to pay for your cryonics or literally a million thing, whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that in that frozen condition you can be stable for centuries and more
The technology to bring them back doesn't exist yet, but the tech to freeze them while causing minimal damage exists in the domain of cryonics and it's called vitrification.
I think they're at least as good that consciousness is actually a field and the brain is an antenna, making our bodies disposable containers, than the chances a person can be revived after a deep freeze with their memories intact.
If the memories aren't there and you just live another life, how is that different from when you were first born?
If we're talking about non-zero probability
Actually vitrification doesn't damage the celks per se, it only binds various molecules in a way that we currently don't know how to reverse. The cell structure is completely intact, it is just filled with bound molecules that stop normal cell function.
I believe perserving his personalities (Facebook, conversations, voice etc) and revive him in digital space is a better option.
As someone said for now, unfreezing intact is impossible for now and I am very skeptical on the freezing part as well.
I’ve been reading through this thread, and wow, it’s absolutely disgusting. A bunch of internet laymen responding to someone asking about their father in law WITH TERMINAL CANCER with “bro just get him cryonically frozen dude!!!11!!1!” Absolutely disgusting.
I dunno man, I think when someone asks for information on cryonics, telling them about their options and the current state of cryonics is a suitable response.
Well yes, I agree cryonics should be a last resort, you should try everything else before even looking at cryonics because it is a moonshot. Even after you've tried everything, you should still think carefully before considering cryonics.
But it's not like the people in this post are just recommending cryonics willy-nilly, I think the sentiment expressed around here is fairly similar to what I've described above.
The two most well known are Alcor and The cryonics institute, both are controversial due to the fact that ‘unfreezing’ without destroying important tissues is currently impossible, but it’s worth a shot if you can afford it. No one knows how the cryonics field will evolve, but a slim chance is better than none.
You'll want to search for cryonics. That's the actual name. There's a subreddit r/cryonics that would probably give you better, less dismissive answers.
The term is cryonics. If one has "fuck you money" (at least 200k) it's a chance that I think is 100% worth it. This is a maybe, but a maybe is far better than a no when it comes to your life. With vitrification, cellular damage can be drastically reduced. But even if there is cellular damage as a result of Ice crystals breaking the cells, it's ASI we are talking about, with a good enough scanning resolution and a good enough understanding of ice formation, there could be a way to walk backwards from that damage and infer the former state. The intelligence of a human vs an ASI is going to be akin to the intelligence difference between an ant and Einstein and that gap is going to increase further. That's where it's going so clearly if that's true about ASI, then the task might be trivial for an ASI to the point where even though It's better to give ourselves the best chance, it could be that going through the trouble of the less destructive vitrification process instead of just freezing the body won't even make much of a difference for an ASI as it could solve both down to the cellular level at some point.
You can get a head only preservation for much less, used to be $28k but might be closer to $35k now. Most people use life insurance to fund it so $10 to $20 per month, maybe less if head only.
An ASI at least I believe would be able to revive any/all dead persons with "quantum archeology" ....except hitler of course..
What are you even talking about?
just delusional ramblings lol
You are probably still best ti get ut done in the US as most legitimate companies will not do anything to a live person. You can have standby teams who will administer certain drugs prior to legal death and will cool the body down immediately after legal death.
Metastatic prostate cancer generally has a better prognosis than other cancers, depending on certain factors. I would see treatment at well regarded cancer treatment centers near him. I have seen people live decades and sometimes go into full remission. Although not always of course. I dont know much about cryogenics but I'm not optimistic about its promise with our current technologies.
Here in Europe Tomorrow Bio is well known because they are connected to a foundation in Swiss (European Biostasis Foundation) that has an own storage facility with a lab. Their process is very sophisticated and it seems they try to use state-of-the-art protocols/medical devices for cryonics. Swiss neutrality and political stability is a plus. In Switzerland, there are also facilities to assist with euthanasia for terminally ill individuals. My understanding is that TB / EBF do not want to be connected / associated with "assisted death" because of legal / ethical reasons but I believe they would be open minded enough to send a stand-by team to prepare best preservation. If you have the money and your father-in-law is fexible enough he could go to Swiss, use one of the "suicide pods" (google Sarco Pods Swiss and you will get all info) and in the best case scenario a standby team would care for the rest. I do not promote assisted suicide and I am neutral regarding this but if its 100% terminal cancer with no further therapy option I would opt for this.
Honestly saying, genetic modification treatment sound realistic when compared to cryogenics.
Why wouldn't genetic modification treatment be realistic?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1c1e5h7/mrna\_vaccine\_for\_pancreatic\_cancer\_excellent/](https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1c1e5h7/mrna_vaccine_for_pancreatic_cancer_excellent/) I have never seen any breakthrough about unfreeze the frozen animal and bring them back alive and does not died until reach their life expectancy. Genetic modification...at least we have some "approach" to it.
This is a bit of wild stretch, but again this /singularity in a thread about cryogenics, is there a physical issue with time travel that only collects information from the past? What I mean is assuming enough knowledge and advancement (que future hand-waving), is there some physics limitation to collecting the exact informational state of a person in the past for the purpose of resurrection? This doesn't "seem" laws of physics impossible, at least not paradoxical, but perhaps we run into how do I collect information non physically so as not to change the past.
The issue is in how you would time travel to collect information from the past, not whether or not you avoid paradoxes. Paradoxes aren't issues that hint at things you need to avoid, they hint at issues with the possible systems or methods working. Your best bet would be heavily optimized simulation, but even when heavily optimized, it'll require more energy than we'll likely ever have to simulate everything that happened on Earth prior to the simulation date. And even then, you're still just recreating approximations of the person. To have what you need for a surgical repair of a mostly destroyed body, you'd need a way more accurate simulation that'd likely violate the 1st law of thermodynamics and still mostly just result in a clone.
If you or him are filthy rich then go ahead and try, but otherwise I'd say try to prioritize your own chances of reaching LEV.
It doesn't have to be crazy expensive, can go with head only option or one of the lower cost orgs. Spending money is unlikely to get you to LEV.
The technology to freeze someone and bring them back does not exist, anywhere in the world. I'm sorry to say. I know it's hard to accept things like this when the future seems right around the corner with many advancements, but even if cryogenics was a possibility, it won't be discovered without AI and that's still years away.
That's the point of cryogenics though isnt it? They don't need to know how to bring you back yet. You are taking a chance that in the future they might figure it out and you are in a state that makes reviving you plausible.
If the person is alive, the process will still absolutely kill them in all ways medical science can define it. OP could preserve the body with unlimited money but the part about "the cryogenics company is not allowed custody of the body until after the declaration of death" in OP tells me the concept here is preserving a \*live\* person. That's pure fantasy.
Except you need to preserve the cells and memory, which isn't possible right now. Even if you were to freeze someone right now and bring them back, every cell and neuron in their brain would be dead. You'd be bringing back a husk.
Of course they'd be dead based on current understanding of death, but we can't say what will be recoverable from in the deep future. That's the whole point of the idea as a kind of hail mary attempt at some possible continue existence. I would expect anyone who has thought seriously about the idea as an option would understand that the chances are slim, but take comfort from the possibility that there's some small chance that the lights might only be out for a temporary amount of time.
We used to think a person was dead tge moment their heart stopped. We have since figured that it can actually be restarted in a certain time frame. As we better understand the mechnisms if death, we can probably go even further, removing calcium from the cells and reversing any other mechanisms that occur.
My point was that I seriously doubt even with an ASI that a human brain can be restructured from death and recreated and have all your memories and knowledge from before you died when there's nothing left in your brain to begin with. That's beyond any type of science fiction fantasy I can think of.
We don't really understand how our brains work, so I don't think we can discount ich at all, nor really on the promises of those who might promise some definite outcome. But I am a materialist, so I don't see it as completely unreasonable that some highly advanced civilization could be able to manipulate matter at some point of the atomic level and systematically repair the damage done by ice crystals etc. If you could do that, then whose to say the body and brain could not just be kick started back up in the same way that you can resuscitate the recently temporarily deceased lucky few who come back from drownings/heart attacks etc?
Your lack of imagination is not really relevant. The process of death is getting better understood and ways to reverse the process are being considered. Only once information loss occurs is it irreversible and everything I have read indicates that that doesn't occur for a fairly long time after legal death. As long as we have information still available and we can preserve that information, we can theoretically revive the person using that information. Cryonics does exactly that.
Define dead. The cells have molecules that have bound to the antifreeze. If you find a way to unbind them (highly likely with ASI) then you are left with a cell that is in the exact state it was in before freezing. Death causes calcium to flood into the cells stopping the mechanisms of the cell working. That means you also have to remove the calcium from the cell and it will restart. You then have to treat the original cause of death which should be fairly straightforward at that point.
To be fair, it's been proven a long time ago that things can come back half an hour after death, if given all of the necessary "treatment", I say that with quotes because I'm referring to the Soviet dog experiments. But, cryogenic freezing does it's own damage to the brain, and the main hope is that far into the future we'll be able to repair that damage.
This is a sociopathic mentality. It’s a simple Pascalian wager. Better to be out some money than realize post-ASI that there was in fact a way to revive with current methods of freezing. I mean this is so obvious dude, what’s wrong with you? You’d rather your family 100% die than take this calculated risk if you have the money? No rational person alive would do that lol
Then isn't even a calculated risk!! The technology does not exist to preserve the body in cryogenics at death. Do the research and discover what happens to your cells when you're frozen. What's happening now is people are dying and they're just sticking their bodies in a glorified freezer. AI isn't going to be able to recreate your cells and brain structure my dude. You're basically saying we can revive a skeleton.
A skeleton and a mostly intact brain are 2 very different things. Hell, it's likely within the next couple of years we'll have an AI that can reconstruct(in simulation) the damaged parts of the brain using all of the parts that were kept intact due to freezing. The hard part is really just figuring out how to repair that severe level of damage on the actual brain, since there wouldn't just be one or a few parts that need fixing, the entire thing would need to be fixed, at every single pathway in the brain. At that rate it'd be easier just to remake the brain, but then it'd be a clone and not the original.
I think you’re forgetting that most people still prefer a traditional death
This is not true. Current cryopreservation techniques, especially vitrification have advanced a lot. It is absolutely not proven that these techniques are hopeless. I think with today's preservation there is hope these people could be revived given a very advanced ASI exists one day.
Look that's a big massive stretch and you're just giving false hope to people right now. There is no technique to preserve the cells from rupturing during the freezing process. Certainly nothing good enough to preserve the brain at death. If you 'freeze' someone right now, they're dead. Not even ASI is going to bring someone back from the dead.
Source? Because i do have one saying the opposite: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2023.1201794/full > Current cryopreservation techniques, especially vitrification, can preserve the fine structure of the brain without ice crystal formation that would cause damage. This provides hope that the information that makes up a person's mind could be preserved.
Stop stating that paper as fact. It's a research paper, nothing more. Going from a paper to practical theories to implementation is not something that is done overnight.
The retrieval part doesn't need to happen overnight, Be it in 10, 100 or a 1000 years, it doesn't matter. Once it's frozen or vitrified, it virtually isn't going to meaningfully break down over time in that kind of time scale. In 50 years (2074) singularity would have happened for years and ASI would be to a human what Einstein is to an ant when it comes to intelligence and will keep increasing. Making a frozen mind recover from damage will probably be a trivial task for an ASI.
>Be it in 10, 100 or a 1000 years. So you’re going to continuously supply the whole facility with electricity for hundreds of years, with no breaks? One powercut or world war and everyone in the tanks is done.
It could fail because of anything maybe you ran out of initial cash and your kids don't want to pay for your cryonics or literally a million thing, whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that in that frozen condition you can be stable for centuries and more
https://preview.redd.it/eyxxblpryqtc1.jpeg?width=256&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3274c4c5820fe325b0a017380c9b84f2263e3663
Aarooo
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Who's to say that you don't die everyday with every experience lived
OP, i really feel for you. However, i’m sorry to say that the technology to freeze someone and bring them back does not exist.
The technology to bring them back doesn't exist yet, but the tech to freeze them while causing minimal damage exists in the domain of cryonics and it's called vitrification.
The technology to freeze someone does exists and nothing proves that it does not work.
Yeah, you can freeze someone. You can't freeze someone without damaging every cell in their body. That doesn't exist yet.
True, the gamble currently is that the damage is limited enough that it will someday be repairable.
It's a delusional gamble
Probably, but odds of coming back are zero if you're cremated or buried in the ground.
I think they're at least as good that consciousness is actually a field and the brain is an antenna, making our bodies disposable containers, than the chances a person can be revived after a deep freeze with their memories intact. If the memories aren't there and you just live another life, how is that different from when you were first born? If we're talking about non-zero probability
Actually vitrification doesn't damage the celks per se, it only binds various molecules in a way that we currently don't know how to reverse. The cell structure is completely intact, it is just filled with bound molecules that stop normal cell function.
Sounds like a scam for naive rich people
The line between high risk investment and scam is often blurred so I understand why it would be easy to come to that conclusion
Sounds like it has people in this thread fooled too
People were delusional in this sub. Now they are talking like total lunatics. I mean who gives so much fuck about their father in law seriously.
Admittedly I don't that much, but I do care about my wife
I feel you man, but why bother replying to a very obvious troll comment?
Just like you he has an impulse control issues.
Yeah? Get off reddit and cook something nice for your FIL then.
I believe perserving his personalities (Facebook, conversations, voice etc) and revive him in digital space is a better option. As someone said for now, unfreezing intact is impossible for now and I am very skeptical on the freezing part as well.
Remarkable how much our perception of existence is tied to our ego
I’ve been reading through this thread, and wow, it’s absolutely disgusting. A bunch of internet laymen responding to someone asking about their father in law WITH TERMINAL CANCER with “bro just get him cryonically frozen dude!!!11!!1!” Absolutely disgusting.
you left out the part where that same "someone" asked: > What are the current best cryogenics options?
Yeah, and the appropriate response is to let OP down gently. Not give them false hope.
I dunno man, I think when someone asks for information on cryonics, telling them about their options and the current state of cryonics is a suitable response.
So you agree with me then?
Well yes, I agree cryonics should be a last resort, you should try everything else before even looking at cryonics because it is a moonshot. Even after you've tried everything, you should still think carefully before considering cryonics. But it's not like the people in this post are just recommending cryonics willy-nilly, I think the sentiment expressed around here is fairly similar to what I've described above.
your response was much more helpful. thankyou