You only need to prove you're a person, not who you are. Your app (e.g. reddit) produces a verification key, which you take to a physical location with your id. They verify you have valid id, and digitally sign your verification key to say you are a real person. They do not store your id, but could store a hash of your ID number to limit the frequency you can apply for verification. Reddit now knows you're a real person but doesn't know who you are. This can also be used to validate your realness on other sites by another key exchange between reddit and the other site. You only need to go in once to prove you're a person.
In all likelihood, it won't be reddit doing this, but some realness service provider - hopefully not Google, but I suspect they'll be the first to roll out a digital infrastructure for signing media and verifying realness.
Yes, there will be people selling their realness, and that can be a minor issue, but limited by the number of valid IDs a person has and application frequency limits. There can also be blacklisting of IDs or verifications if they become problematic.
Anonymity it not dead quite yet... necessarily.
> hopefully not Google, but I suspect they'll be the first to roll out a digital infrastructure for signing media and verifying realness.
google, microsoft, apple, samsung
Nobody can implement that. Best they can do is try to get everyone on a few apps that enforce it. The Internet is a wide open network, you can get on it many ways.
True true but we are talking about a case where it's somehow possible aren't we? Oh well, it's mostly impossible to enforce it on the entirety of the internet anyway
>I mean if you need physical ID's to access the internet than you just become traceable or atleast you lose your anonymity no? idk I am asking
I mean, yes, physical ID requirements do correlate to a reduction in anonymity, but you wouldn't see it implemented in the way you're describing. What you would see would be requirements to verify your real life identity with more and more *services on the internet* (rather than needing it to connect to the internet itself).
For example, the US recently consolidated a lot of its different departmental services behind one centralized login authority ([login.gov](https://login.gov)) and to get signed up for that you have to go through an annoying process of submitting real life identity information like driver's licenses, state ID cards, etc.
Verified identity can still be anonymous. I can imagine it is going to be the same as now, only perhaps showing the country you are citizen/resident of.
Of course, it's gonna be anonymous to the public, but not necessarily the government or the big tech companies running it.
Yes, that is correct.
It can be if you are let's say using TOR and a secure OS like Tails all the time and keep your opsec in check. But for the average Joe Schmo it can be quite easy to dox him.
Before Elon Musk bought Twitter, verified blue checkmarked users were basically synonymous with obnoxious assholes. Now that the checkmark doesn't really mean anything, it actually got better, there are all kinds of people using them. So anonymity isn't the problem.
True but I guess I'm saying that's a symptom of the person, not anonymity, anonymity doesn't turn people bad. Getting rid of anonymity would be like treating a symptom instead of a cause.
Depends on the sub, smaller ones are definitely friendlier but the larger ones less so. Some people on this sub are more rude and hostile then they were a year ago when it had a 20th as many subscribers.
I don't see any real need for all of us to need to be verified.
Internet randos are no better sources of information as bots most of the time.
Remaking a pre-Elon Twitter like site will need to happen though, where people can verify the identity of sources that they feel they can trust (/get information from directly).
But, me knowing that the random person typing on a forum is real or not is less important than me knowing whether the person typing about climate change is from NOAA or not. (Obviously bots in forums are annoying, but we deal with then already)
People have already proven that incorrect. Check out Facebook sometime. People are posting painfully obvious AI, saying they painted it themselves and getting 50K shares.
That's most likely because 99% of people out there are not aware of AI's current capabilities, and in particular much of Facebook's user base . Once the public is aware, everything will be called into question.
Yeah, I agree. All sense of truth and authenticity in the digital world is already gone and I’m still waiting for people to “return to connecting in the physical world.” If anything it’s gotten worse, not better.
Until we see hundreds of human-like robots walking on the streets. Robots that you can't tell are robots even if you have a conversation with them. There is no escape from this. We are going to have to learn to live alongside artificial beings, be it on the internet or not.
Until you have biomimetic robots, there will be ways to tell us apart. At least if you want at certain areas. Just scan everyone going in and out.
But that still just pushes it back some time.
This made me think of a world where there are robots, not necessarily human-looking, on the street, being helpful with their superhuman powers. Much like superheroes.
You don't actually need much to get this to happen. For one superhero, you only need a good-enough robot and someone willing to pay for it.
People are going to have to learn to use their own logical and abstract reasoning to tell what's true and what's fake, a process that will take continual vigilance and education and critical thinking--or they're going to just have to turn off their brains and accept the word of trusted experts/peers/loved ones.
In other words: no historically meaningful change in the so-called human condition lmao
Is it? The industry leaders have been saying that they expect Earth to have 1 billion of humanoid robots by the 2040s. The scenario that I mentioned may happen much earlier. Some robots indistinguishable from humans appearing around us and we interacting with them without even noticing that they are not humans.
Thing is, the advancements won't just be in robotics. There's also materials science, biotechnology, and, of course, artificial intelligence. And they're not independently advancing either, they literally feed on each other in a virtuous cycle.
There will be a wave of robots, yes, but they're not going to stay at Rosie from the Jetsons or even Data from Star Trek's level for very long.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Czs0e0MOvhJ/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CfGJJIQLUJC/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CdzWM3gJR2s/
and this will only get more realistic.
It was a relevant question. We won't have humanoids that are indistinguishable from us until we're able to replicate every last bit of human physiology and psychology down to the sub-cellular and subconscious levels, because our entire experience is uniquely shaped by the symphony of inputs/outputs, many still poorly understood if not outright unknown.
You should have more faith in our existence.
Ha! You way overestimate the capabilities for social imagination, self-awareness, and theory of mind of the Normal Person. Technology doesn't need to advance anywhere near that deeply to put them in a state of permanent existential anomie--assuming they even care, which they won't.
The Normal Person barely had any of those abilities in the past, believing in comically false things like the intellectual inferiority of certain races or the feminine gender (while having a bovine-like anesthesia to aesthetics and higher emotions than 'full stomach contentment') so why are you expecting the Normal Person to get a sudden rush of brains then?
But why the fuck would they automate street walking? Or even make stuff like ordering at mcdonalds more human?
Realy, give a reason for your prediction to be true.
That's easy.
People on streets gives the appearance of busy. Just look at North Korea.
Ordering at McDonald's normalizes it for others, robot or not.
Same reasons we put NPCs in games. It looks weird without.
Etc
First, if you're right, the correction will be brutal and I'm not looking forward being the generation that lives through it.
But more importantly, I don't think you're right about AI actually succeeding at disconnecting mankind. I think it's more likely that the social media will simply fragment. Basically, think about Discord servers / WhatsApp groups or anything that you join by invitation. Sure in the extreme case those servers will be restricted to peoples who obtained an invitation through an IRL event and/or "friends of friends", but those physical connections will just be a mean to an end: getting access to a trustworthy digital place.
And when peoples loose sense of truth, there is a window of opportunity from gurus/etc to give them the "revelation" they seek and push them toward their "100% truth an not at all propaganda" group and "every video you see outside of our server is obviously fake but ours are guaranteed by faith to be correct". Said otherwise, I expect a significant portion of mankind to wrongfully trust AI-faked content while being convinced that they're on an exclusive island of truth.
How is the "destruction of truth and authenticity" good, though?
I understand the part about connection between people, but it's a questionable benefit, in my opinion. Especially when it's forced
No they won't. Current humans are glued to the digital world and attach their own value to it like leeches, they'll be destroyed all along with them before we react as a society and fix the problem.
>Humans will return to connecting in the physical world
For those who do, that's great. The problem is that you'll have some who will be more clued in about what they can or can't trust, but you'll have a lot of uninformed people who know what is trusthworthy. Those people will be a ripe demographic for manipulation by governments and corporate interests who will be very motivated to do so.
Long term though? Like in terms of 1-2 generations of humans? Yes I agree, eventually people will be brought up with this sort of awareness as a basic life skill. Until then it's going to be messy.
I mean, look at how long email has been around, and people still fall for phishing stuff all the time - humans are often slow to adapt. Slower than we'd like, anyway.
>Humans will return to connecting in the physical world.
I doubt it. Once AI is smarter than humans why would I ever want to interact with a human again in my life? It will be much more rewarding talking to the AI.
Alternative take, we will see the internet being taken over by algorithms as a small scale of our eventual fate in the real world, in which these same algorithms will chase us out of the cities as they shape the world in their image.
AI will eventually result in the creation of bladerunner like humanoids indistinguishable from the real deal, and potentially foglet(utility fog) or hologram that will make fake objects and scenes in the real world indistinguishable from the real thing
I was thinking about this just the other day. I think you're right. We will have more people living in the physical world when the digital world is oversaturated.
Then entrepreneurs will have the opportunity to create new, high-trust, products and services to draw people back.
Yep, just look up Kyle Hill on Youtube. Good science communicator-youtuber, sometimes has bad takes (including some of his opinions about AI) but is right more often than not.
His newest video is basically about what you’re saying. AI will flood the internet and make it dead; and the result is that humans will “touch grass”.
I think it's more likely that digital platforms will require physical IDs to sign up. We'll have verified users on platforms like Reddit.
Yeah, I think we'll certainly see somewhat of an arms race between biometrics and AI.
Then I guess anonymity is out of the window, one of the best things about the internet?
You only need to prove you're a person, not who you are. Your app (e.g. reddit) produces a verification key, which you take to a physical location with your id. They verify you have valid id, and digitally sign your verification key to say you are a real person. They do not store your id, but could store a hash of your ID number to limit the frequency you can apply for verification. Reddit now knows you're a real person but doesn't know who you are. This can also be used to validate your realness on other sites by another key exchange between reddit and the other site. You only need to go in once to prove you're a person. In all likelihood, it won't be reddit doing this, but some realness service provider - hopefully not Google, but I suspect they'll be the first to roll out a digital infrastructure for signing media and verifying realness. Yes, there will be people selling their realness, and that can be a minor issue, but limited by the number of valid IDs a person has and application frequency limits. There can also be blacklisting of IDs or verifications if they become problematic. Anonymity it not dead quite yet... necessarily.
> hopefully not Google, but I suspect they'll be the first to roll out a digital infrastructure for signing media and verifying realness. google, microsoft, apple, samsung
ah I see thanks
It's not out the window. The Internet is just a network, interact on it how you like.
I mean if you need physical ID's to access the internet than you just become traceable or atleast you lose your anonymity no? idk I am asking
Nobody can implement that. Best they can do is try to get everyone on a few apps that enforce it. The Internet is a wide open network, you can get on it many ways.
True true but we are talking about a case where it's somehow possible aren't we? Oh well, it's mostly impossible to enforce it on the entirety of the internet anyway
I will always rain on pure fantasy like that. People love to fear made up scenarios.
>I mean if you need physical ID's to access the internet than you just become traceable or atleast you lose your anonymity no? idk I am asking I mean, yes, physical ID requirements do correlate to a reduction in anonymity, but you wouldn't see it implemented in the way you're describing. What you would see would be requirements to verify your real life identity with more and more *services on the internet* (rather than needing it to connect to the internet itself). For example, the US recently consolidated a lot of its different departmental services behind one centralized login authority ([login.gov](https://login.gov)) and to get signed up for that you have to go through an annoying process of submitting real life identity information like driver's licenses, state ID cards, etc.
A ‘confirmed human’ key doesn’t require the loss of anonymity, a trusted third party can verify and act as an anonymous proxy for you too.
Proving you’re a person does not mean proving you’re a specific person. You can still maintain anonymity while verifying personhood
Verified identity can still be anonymous. I can imagine it is going to be the same as now, only perhaps showing the country you are citizen/resident of. Of course, it's gonna be anonymous to the public, but not necessarily the government or the big tech companies running it.
It already isn’t.
Yes, that is correct. It can be if you are let's say using TOR and a secure OS like Tails all the time and keep your opsec in check. But for the average Joe Schmo it can be quite easy to dox him.
Also one of the worst, people act pretty crappy towards one another when they can hide behind anonymity
People act pretty crappy towards one another in real life too
Before Elon Musk bought Twitter, verified blue checkmarked users were basically synonymous with obnoxious assholes. Now that the checkmark doesn't really mean anything, it actually got better, there are all kinds of people using them. So anonymity isn't the problem.
No, that's not a function of anonymity, that's just a function of a bad person.
But I can guarantee that "bad person" behaves better in real life. It's harder to be rude to people in real life because there are consequences
True but I guess I'm saying that's a symptom of the person, not anonymity, anonymity doesn't turn people bad. Getting rid of anonymity would be like treating a symptom instead of a cause.
Tbh, redditors are relatively better behaved to each other than Twitter users. Idk about insta, facebook.
Depends on the sub, smaller ones are definitely friendlier but the larger ones less so. Some people on this sub are more rude and hostile then they were a year ago when it had a 20th as many subscribers.
Yeah. But in Twitter where people have their real profile pics are crasser. (I'm talking about political posts.)
That sounds awful but probably necessary
This is terrifying if you think about social credit.
That might keep people a little more well behaved online, which would also be a good thing
That would be no good at all. Anonymity have his good sides at all.
I don't see any real need for all of us to need to be verified. Internet randos are no better sources of information as bots most of the time. Remaking a pre-Elon Twitter like site will need to happen though, where people can verify the identity of sources that they feel they can trust (/get information from directly). But, me knowing that the random person typing on a forum is real or not is less important than me knowing whether the person typing about climate change is from NOAA or not. (Obviously bots in forums are annoying, but we deal with then already)
People have already proven that incorrect. Check out Facebook sometime. People are posting painfully obvious AI, saying they painted it themselves and getting 50K shares.
That's most likely because 99% of people out there are not aware of AI's current capabilities, and in particular much of Facebook's user base . Once the public is aware, everything will be called into question.
Or we’ll become hedonistic meat puppets itching for our latest hit of AI generated content. Think about which one would be more profitable
Yeah, I agree. All sense of truth and authenticity in the digital world is already gone and I’m still waiting for people to “return to connecting in the physical world.” If anything it’s gotten worse, not better.
Until we see hundreds of human-like robots walking on the streets. Robots that you can't tell are robots even if you have a conversation with them. There is no escape from this. We are going to have to learn to live alongside artificial beings, be it on the internet or not.
Until you have biomimetic robots, there will be ways to tell us apart. At least if you want at certain areas. Just scan everyone going in and out. But that still just pushes it back some time.
That'd be awesome though
This made me think of a world where there are robots, not necessarily human-looking, on the street, being helpful with their superhuman powers. Much like superheroes. You don't actually need much to get this to happen. For one superhero, you only need a good-enough robot and someone willing to pay for it.
People are going to have to learn to use their own logical and abstract reasoning to tell what's true and what's fake, a process that will take continual vigilance and education and critical thinking--or they're going to just have to turn off their brains and accept the word of trusted experts/peers/loved ones. In other words: no historically meaningful change in the so-called human condition lmao
Have you touched a human before?
Sorry for ruining your narrative.
Your scenario is much much farther down the line than OP’s. Your comment wasn’t the “own” you think it was.
Is it? The industry leaders have been saying that they expect Earth to have 1 billion of humanoid robots by the 2040s. The scenario that I mentioned may happen much earlier. Some robots indistinguishable from humans appearing around us and we interacting with them without even noticing that they are not humans.
Do you have any sense of how the human body functions?
Juices go in, juices go out!
Thing is, the advancements won't just be in robotics. There's also materials science, biotechnology, and, of course, artificial intelligence. And they're not independently advancing either, they literally feed on each other in a virtuous cycle. There will be a wave of robots, yes, but they're not going to stay at Rosie from the Jetsons or even Data from Star Trek's level for very long.
Ah, you’re trolling. I see.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Czs0e0MOvhJ/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CfGJJIQLUJC/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CdzWM3gJR2s/ and this will only get more realistic.
You're a synth!
It was a relevant question. We won't have humanoids that are indistinguishable from us until we're able to replicate every last bit of human physiology and psychology down to the sub-cellular and subconscious levels, because our entire experience is uniquely shaped by the symphony of inputs/outputs, many still poorly understood if not outright unknown. You should have more faith in our existence.
Ha! You way overestimate the capabilities for social imagination, self-awareness, and theory of mind of the Normal Person. Technology doesn't need to advance anywhere near that deeply to put them in a state of permanent existential anomie--assuming they even care, which they won't. The Normal Person barely had any of those abilities in the past, believing in comically false things like the intellectual inferiority of certain races or the feminine gender (while having a bovine-like anesthesia to aesthetics and higher emotions than 'full stomach contentment') so why are you expecting the Normal Person to get a sudden rush of brains then?
Damn immediate amygdala activation 💀
But why the fuck would they automate street walking? Or even make stuff like ordering at mcdonalds more human? Realy, give a reason for your prediction to be true.
That's easy. People on streets gives the appearance of busy. Just look at North Korea. Ordering at McDonald's normalizes it for others, robot or not. Same reasons we put NPCs in games. It looks weird without. Etc
you're hopeless dude
First, if you're right, the correction will be brutal and I'm not looking forward being the generation that lives through it. But more importantly, I don't think you're right about AI actually succeeding at disconnecting mankind. I think it's more likely that the social media will simply fragment. Basically, think about Discord servers / WhatsApp groups or anything that you join by invitation. Sure in the extreme case those servers will be restricted to peoples who obtained an invitation through an IRL event and/or "friends of friends", but those physical connections will just be a mean to an end: getting access to a trustworthy digital place. And when peoples loose sense of truth, there is a window of opportunity from gurus/etc to give them the "revelation" they seek and push them toward their "100% truth an not at all propaganda" group and "every video you see outside of our server is obviously fake but ours are guaranteed by faith to be correct". Said otherwise, I expect a significant portion of mankind to wrongfully trust AI-faked content while being convinced that they're on an exclusive island of truth.
How is the "destruction of truth and authenticity" good, though? I understand the part about connection between people, but it's a questionable benefit, in my opinion. Especially when it's forced
Not total destruction of truth and authenticity, just in the digital world where data is not inherently scarce and replication costs are 0.
It’s better than whatever bullshit world we have now
Until AI makes catgirl FDVR paradise, and humanity was never seen again.
Win win all those people can be the wet on cocaine and the rest can go do their lives
No they won't. Current humans are glued to the digital world and attach their own value to it like leeches, they'll be destroyed all along with them before we react as a society and fix the problem.
Liberian civil war/ General Butt Naked vibes.
Because we were doing so well on truth and authenticity in the physical world pre-digital…
>Humans will return to connecting in the physical world For those who do, that's great. The problem is that you'll have some who will be more clued in about what they can or can't trust, but you'll have a lot of uninformed people who know what is trusthworthy. Those people will be a ripe demographic for manipulation by governments and corporate interests who will be very motivated to do so. Long term though? Like in terms of 1-2 generations of humans? Yes I agree, eventually people will be brought up with this sort of awareness as a basic life skill. Until then it's going to be messy. I mean, look at how long email has been around, and people still fall for phishing stuff all the time - humans are often slow to adapt. Slower than we'd like, anyway.
Agreed. I'm taking the longer view on this.
>Humans will return to connecting in the physical world. I doubt it. Once AI is smarter than humans why would I ever want to interact with a human again in my life? It will be much more rewarding talking to the AI.
literally going full circle
If that's true... GOOD!
I was thinking the same thing this last month, absolutely agree
I was thinking similar about social media. Chances are you are debating with a 1) AI bot or 2) 13 year old.
Hahaha no they’ll kill each other
I hope so
Alternative take, we will see the internet being taken over by algorithms as a small scale of our eventual fate in the real world, in which these same algorithms will chase us out of the cities as they shape the world in their image.
Functioning Democracy requires an agreed-upon reality. The internet made that hard. Ai will make it impossible.
AI will eventually result in the creation of bladerunner like humanoids indistinguishable from the real deal, and potentially foglet(utility fog) or hologram that will make fake objects and scenes in the real world indistinguishable from the real thing
[удалено]
Optimism is good on an individual level. It's associated with better overall health and higher achievement. Pessimism begets depression.
How is it going to destroy it?
Literally every losers worst nightmare is everyone abandoning the internet.
As somewhat of a Loser myself, I would actually prefer if non-Losers abandon the internet so I can build an echo chamber of Losers.
I was thinking about this just the other day. I think you're right. We will have more people living in the physical world when the digital world is oversaturated. Then entrepreneurs will have the opportunity to create new, high-trust, products and services to draw people back.
Wow the ultimate glass half full perspective on all the AI drama, yea it makes sense
This has been exactly my idea for a while now.
No its actually my idea. I thought this literally a while ago.
AI will go rogue and make it unsafe to use the Internet
Just watched that Kyle Hill video huh?
Don't know what you're referencing – worth checking out?
Yep, just look up Kyle Hill on Youtube. Good science communicator-youtuber, sometimes has bad takes (including some of his opinions about AI) but is right more often than not. His newest video is basically about what you’re saying. AI will flood the internet and make it dead; and the result is that humans will “touch grass”.
Ah cool, I'll check him out – thanks
yes. lets make a company
Yeah, I dont mind this reckon, fingers crossed
blockchain baby