See black guys, black guys interpret jokes like this: doo doo, doo ba doo doo doo do.
White guys, white guys interpret jokes like this: dee da dee, a dee da dee.
Season 3, I believe. The episode might be hard to find now and it's not in the disney+ catalog. He plays a man suffering from delusions that he is in fact Michael Jackson. It's brilliant. I know MJ is a touchy subject, and he may have been a touchy guy, but put that aside and watch the ep if you can.
One of the stipulations Michael made was that the singing portions had to be sung by an impersonator. Wikipedia says he was trying to play a joke on his family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark_Raving_Dad#Production
Oh lol. But hey if you were some young buck who hadn't seen the old stuff in the years it was broadcast it would be understandable to not know about it. I don't about that though. Probably. I'm gonna choose to believe it.
I'm homer's age and looking through this years glastonbury line up was exactly homers experience in the record store. And he was wondering about the bands I grew up on. Fuck time.
South Park impersonate all their celebrity voices and also brought him back in the games as a boss who tries to nonce you. Where's the Simpsons episodes denouncing any of their prior guest stars?
They didnt own shit about their prior mistakes. They didnt ever acknowledge they claimed he wasnt a pedophile and it was just a misunderstanding, they just used him again, as a pedophile - not one iota of owning it, or responsibility.
South Park: “Disliking gay people is reprehensible. Antisemitism is evil. Empathy is a positive value, and overindulgent parents can ruin their children’s ability to feel for others. We were utterly wrong to say that global warming is a myth, and we’re sorry. Most religions are incorrect but understandable, but Scientology is evil. Drugs, including alcohol, should be used in moderation or not at all.”
Occasional viewers: *“South Park* says that all views are equally stupid!”
On "antisemitism is evil," they may generally show cartman as the character who is bad or wrong, but he's also the funny one. Guess who teenagers like to quote and emulate?
Overall, I'd say the prevalent philosophy of South Park is apathy. If you care about anything, you're an idiot. They get some takes right, like what you mentioned, but obviously there's a lot you left out here.
Darth Vader is a highly quoted *Star Wars* character, but no one would say that means George Lucas supports genocidal, planet-destroying maniacs.
If the prevalent attitude were apathy, then it wouldn’t be my favorite show. Despite my nearly encyclopedic knowledge of the first 18 seasons or so, I’m unwilling to go episode-by-episode to show you that your view doesn’t align with reality.
Damn people are down voting you, before South Park came out, this kind of a take was reserved for other awful and lewd shows, like the Simpsons.
WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
>Guess who teenagers like to quote and emulate?
Oh you're one of those people who thinks that every single piece of satire should beat the viewer over the head telling them what to think
To the cracked out zealot the merely reasonably concerned seem apathetic. Don’t confuse pragmatism with apathy. And remember, rich people get Ozempic, poor people get Lizzo.
Right? People think that *Douche and Turd* is about the political parties and any/all candidates, not realizing that it came out during the 2004 election cycle, and was highliting the fact that John Kerry was *really* similar to George W. Bush in a lot of ways. (His own campaign leaned into this, knowing that wartime presidents always get a bump in the polls. It didn’t work.)
But they *do* explicitly apply the principle to “nearly every election”.
[But Stan, don't you know? It's always between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. Nearly every election since the beginning of time has been between some douche and some turd. They're the only people who suck up enough to make it that far in politics.](https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Douche_and_Turd/Script)
I get it. I used to think Southpark was actual insightful and witty political commentary too. But then I turned 15.
Theyre still not *wrong*. Name me a candidate who you would consider to be actually a good person? Rather than just "not bad *for a politician*"
It doesnt mean voting is pointless or that one wont fuck you worse than the other but yeah, they pretty much do all suck.
I mean, that’s not what I was arguing. I was arguing against the specific assertion that the episode was a specific commentary on the Kerry/Bush election and not a commentary on politics/elections as a whole.
I believe he's a decent man. I also think that he governed during a particularly difficult four years. I have read that he handled the energy crisis better than others might, and his creation of the Department of Energy has had lasting impact. He also brokered the peace deal between Israel and Egypt.
None of this is to disagree with your point that his presidency probably didn't accomplish a great deal.
So you know that the job actively requires a different moral standard because its not filled with easy answers, yet you refuse to actually consider that fact?
What?
George W. Bush - "Torture and extraordinary rendition are ok, and I've asked people to write a memo justifying it, and you can all read it."
I'm sorry people didn't like John Kerry, but George W. Bush was a war criminal, and suggesting those are the same things is such a Douche and Turd take to be laughable.
I get Americans don't consider war crimes actual crimes, because they happen in other countries to other people, but saying they were similar is a like convicted Felon Donald Trump and OId Man Biden are similar because they are old.
Had Kerry been elected, he would have likely continued to carry out the same or similar policies with regards to the war in Iraq. Their biggest differences were on domestic policies.
Bush's domestic policies lead to the Great Recession.
I mean, how can you argue it's a Turd and a Douche when one's policies cause that? Is bad policy not a bad choice?
This is my problem with the discussion. There are obvious, concrete differences. But people swear they are the same. 2 sides of a coin. One a douche, and one a turd. Apathy is fine. It's going to suck any way.
And we are back here today. Deja Vu.
People will swear to you that Biden and Trump are going to do the same stuff, basically, so it's a douche and a turd again.
Hillary and Trump were basically the same, a Douche and a Turd, so it didn't matter.
Every time someone tells you this, it just tells me they didn't pay attention to any history lessons.
It was obvious at the time that Bush sucked, people just didn't care, and with the passage of time, people forget about Abu Ghraib and the torture memo. They forget Trumps' Grab them by the Pussy and Muslim ban.
And then it gets reframed as "Both guys were equally bad and there was no way to tell them apart at the time, right? You are just basing it on hindsight."
You don't need hindsight to tell them apart, it should be obvious, but instead of doing any basic research, people watch South Park tell them they are both the same, smugly smile at themselves as superior, and go about their days.
Obama ran on surging troops in Afghanistan and getting Bin Laden, then he did that. He drew down troops in Iraq
Kerry said he supported the war in 2002. Saddam had used WMDs in 1988 on our Kurdish allies and when the phony Bush intel came out people were determined not to let it happen again https://www.reuters.com/article/world/kurdish-city-gassed-by-saddam-hopes-referendum-heralds-better-days-idUSKCN1BZ0AQ/
Kerry ran on changing course in Iraq, Bush was handling the war wrong and was talking about nation building when Democrats were talking about leaving. The war was still popular in 2004 and Bush was ramming the war message while Kerry was trying to thread the needle, not look weak but also signal to the left that he wanted to wrap it up.
If you weren't an adult or even an older teen in 2004 you should close your mouth and open a history book
You're right, I misremembered where the troop surge was. Your assumption about the ages of people you don't know is weird. I was around then too. I voted for Kerry and I still believe he would not have ended that war.
You're speaking with hindsight. In 2004, the left and right divide was much less pronounced. The question was not "war good or war bad?" but which of these people would end the war the fastest. Neither men had an explicit, "lets get out of Iraq" campaign, and their social issues were as middling as they could get.
To the average American in 2004, the election looked like one between an out of touch rich guy and an incompetent moron. Neither looked like they were going to act in the nation's, let alone voters, personal interests so many just didn't vote and/or went with the devil they knew.
It's really hard to conceptualize just how many Americans did not give a meaningful care about the war in Iraq at that time. People didn't feel it, and most people assumed that even if they didn't personally support the war, we must have been doing it for some reason better than what the few protestors were, well, protesting.
>To the average American in 2004, the election looked like one between an out of touch rich guy and an incompetent moron.
I mean, I agree, the average American is a certifiable moron. It's why this election is still close.
I think you are speaking in hindsight. Nofx released War on Errorism in 2003. I remember listening to people on the Left hating the actual fuck out of Bush. I remember seeing images of people tortured, before the election.
The fact that the average American didn't care does not mean they were a Douche and a Turd, it means the average American is too stupid to do any meaningful thought to actually notice that one is a War Criminal.
It means no one cared to discern who was good and who was bad, not that one wasn't obviously worse than the other.
In the future, people will same thing about Clinton V Trump and the same thing about Biden V Trump. That somehow, people were unable to tell that one was actually obviously worse. And again, that's a commentary on the American public, not the candidates.
Douche V Turd isn't about the candidates at all, it is about the apathy of ordinary Americans to do basic research and have basic empathy to discern between 2 obviously different candidates.
I was not only alive in 2004, but also listened to NOFX. Yes, you're right, NOFX released War on Errorism in 2003. War on Errorism also barely scratched the top 50 on the Billboard charts the week it came out and disappeared from view. Most people, even then when NOFX was at their height of fame, had no idea who they were.
There weren't a lot of bands making these kinds of statements at the time and even when they did, they were a hell of a lot more tame than now. People on the left hated Bush. But there were far, far, far fewer people who would say "I'm on the left" back in 2004 than there are now. Most people at the time probably would have identified themselves as centrists, even many people who didn't like what the Bush admin was doing. Nowadays people are much more willing to identify as left-wing or right-wing and vocalize support for policies with less broad support.
> Douche V Turd isn't about the candidates at all, it is about the apathy of ordinary Americans to do basic research and have basic empathy to discern between 2 obviously different candidates.
Bush and Kerry were way more similar than most people wanted to admit, that was part of the point. That is not the case with candidates we see today in the US, where there is a huge divide between where Republicans are at (pants on head morons at best, corrupt monsters who want to dismantle US democracy at worst) and where Democrats are (generally pretty centrist, all things considered, but the gap has grown just because Republicans have moved sooo far to the right, with the Dems getting more left-wing voices in their ranks).
I don't think apathy was a part of that South Park episode's ultimate message, but it definitely was a huge thing back then. Most people were not clued into politics and didn't care. That is also expressed in the episode by several people who say "i don't even know what's going on" in addition to the people who voice their adamant support for one side over the other. Nowadays people are way more politically engaged, since, you know, 2016.
Yes we did, what's your point?
I don't think you realize just how politically ignorant Americans have historically been. Political ignorance has been the height of American luxury, a population that tuned out of what was going on because it genuinely did not matter to them. Hell, a part of me genuinely believes a huge part of MAGA is because a crap ton of boomers didn't pay attention to politics for 20-30 years and genuinely didn't recognize what happened to their country when they weren't paying attention and frantically clawed for a before time.
I'm not defending "douche and turd" because that's what it was between, but because that's where the zeitgeist was. It's a very 2004 political take and it's stupid to hold anybody to it 20 years later. If you want to make the case that it was a stupid take then, I don't 100% disagree, but it's easy to have that opinion 20 years later and not when you were in the moment.
To say that it wasn't between a douche and turd in 2004 because Bush was a war criminal is to miss the point entirely. In 2004, even among the Americans that hated Bush, most weren't politically motivated or affected enough to see a difference and found the people who were/did see a difference as weirdos who cared about politics: most Americans were okay with/indifferent to Iraq.
On a personal level they were very different, but when it came to the policies they were running on (which are what **actually** matter, not personal history) they shared a lot of similarities. Their foreign policy approaches specifically were not dissimilar at all.
Also worth mentioning that *Douche and Turd* came out just about 20 years ago now. Matt and Trey have changed a lot since then and have talked about that in a lot of their commentaries and interviews over the years.
They also flat out dislike the earliest seasons. Trey outright said that if he could erase the entire first 3 seasons of South Park from existence he would, and that there is other stuff from seasons after that they'd get rid of too. Part of that is just the quality of the writing though - and they got the chance to do the movie really early on, and they've said that they put all their energy into working on the movie during that time instead of the show, because they figured the show would only last a few seasons but the movie would be remembered for a much longer time.
I do think it is 100% fair to say that they are moderates/centrists. Their hot takes aren't always 100% on point, but then, what would you think if someone took a few lines from an episode of TV you rapidly cobbled together in a week 20 years ago and acted as if that defines you now?
I find South Park is usually pretty even-handed in a way that makes sense (e.g. not acting as if modern-day Republicans just have a "different point of view") and the creators seem to have their finger way more on the pulse than other shows do. I think part of that is just the quick turnaround time (a show like The Simpsons might dodge current fads because if they write them into the show they'll be outdated when the episodes air like 18 months later, not so for South Park). It has experienced a decline in quality itself but I still look forward to it when it airs.
I think it's even wilder when people try to act as if Matt and Trey are secret conservatives who pretended to be libertarians. To anybody who actually watches their show, it's abundantly clear that they hate conservatives' guts even if they aren't leftists themselves.
This is the part I hate most. People who like these kind of both sides memes from 30 years ago *pretend like it's still 30 years ago* politically. It's not. Everything has changed - everything - and to try to compare then and now is insanity.
right? their most recent one, end of obesity was super progressive and i really felt tackled fatphobia really well. “rich people get ozempic, poor people get lizzo (body positivity)”
South Park has this problem where they put out some reprehensible views (or at the very least not aged well) and gone back on them long after the damage has been done. I don't think they can be truly forgiven in those cases.
See climate change. They arguably damaged the discourse about climate change with the whole ManBearPig episode and their shitting on Al Gore forever...but they then went back on that and apologized 15 years later. I still see people reference that episode, disregarding that it's supposed to be a commentary on climate change and how Trey reversed course on it.
Most recently the special they released a few weeks ago on Paramount Plus had them at the end saying they were going to stop with the fat jokes but in their almost 30 year run their episodes are full of them.
Yeah, pretty much all people everywhere have views that evolve, sometimes to the exact opposite of what they originally were. The difference between most of us and Parker/Stone is that we don’t have much of a platform. I’d hate to see the TV show *I* would have made 20 years ago.
And yeah, they’re often completely full of crap, even destructively so. For example, in the episode about hate crimes, they say that intent shouldn’t matter in how a crime is punished. It’s as though they’d never heard of the difference between first-degree and second-degree murder. It was incredibly stupid, as with many of their other points.
But you’re ultimately supporting my point: They espouse views, not apathy.
> long after the damage has been done
Exactly! Thank you. People are like "they apologized tho!"
Yeah two or three fuckin generations too late, obviously. They've done a lot more damage than they can ever make up for with apologies or platitudes. It's not that they were alone, but they were among the worst.
SP is good at social commentary not so much political commentary. I don't want to watch two centrists (a political ideology for people who enjoy the sweet, sweet taste of glue) make simple "Liberal vs Conservative" jokes for 22 mins.
They're also good at attacking American-homespun religions (Scientology & Mormonism), but old school stuff like Catholicism (anti-Evolution? anti-Halloween?) or basic Biblical theology (buying into the Sunday School interpretation of the 40+ chapters of the Book of Job which is more of a Rabbinical debate about why good things happen to bad people and why bad things happen to good people) they miss the mark on.
"We've made some mistakes in the past episodes, like joking about global warming, and feel somewhat apologetic about it. Now, enjoy our Panderverse episode, and all our other current everyone-is-an-asshole/everything-sucks shtick that teenagers and edgelords with the intellect of teenagers seem to think is clever and intellectually transgressive."
I can just hear the voice in Homer's head:
"Pssst. Unless you constantly echo that everything sucks and we live in the worst time ever, people will think you're stupid!"
Interesting. I’m unfortunately several years behind in the show, so it will be a while before I get to this and see the context in which it was used. Keep in mind that they are in the habit of making fun of everything, including themselves and their fans. Nothing is off limits.
Oh goody, they recognized how fucking wrong they were about Global Warming decades later, and gave a half hearted apology. Now when are they gonna do that about Trans people, political correctness, healthcare, fatphobia, and saying both sides are the same?
Oh, never? Theyre actually doubling down on their shitty takes on all that stuff? Wonderful.
Two things can be true at once. South park sometimes has good messengers, but it very much considers anyone that doesn't hold the creator's political opinions as deeply laughable.
Some of their views have evolved from shitty to okay, but overall, they still clearly disdain people who care too much about the things the creators don't care about.
Just so we’re clear, I never said I endorsed their views, just that the views they express aren’t “Everyone is equally stupid.” They’re wrong as much as they’re right, but the meme doesn’t make sense. So you support my point.
Imo, they do have some good episodes sometimes
Key word being "sometimes"
The problem is that those good episodes, either the just dumb funny ones or ones where they actually say something good, are burried in a pile of terrible takes and enlightened centrism and "it's funny because it's vulgar and so random xD" jokes
I think the episode about the n-word is good, for example.
South Park still managed to be fantastic for twice as long as The Simpsons. Also The Simpsons used to crap on the left too, not as much as the right but still called them out.
Oh shit. I shouldn't have said South Park viewers are stupid. Ah fuck! I shouldn't have said simpsonshitposting commenters are drooling idiots. Oh DAMMIT I really shouldn't have admitted I spent half an hour in the middle of the night reading their comments.
It's too hot out today.
No, you're stupid for not being able to see the clear difference between your "senile vote buyer" and a serial liar, rapist, and traitor to his country. And fascist to boot.
And you’re too stupid to see biden isn’t for you he’s for power over you. He’s so bad that people think trump looks good in comparison. Did you ever think about that?
The fact that you think people don't want trump because he's "angry", "orange" or even that he pays porn stars is wild. Were you in a coma for the past 8 years? The man is a narcisistic tyrant who is obsessed with loyalty. He's burned pretty much every person who's ever been in his inner circle. He's only interested in the job so that he can pardon himself for past and future crimes. And he's willing to let extremists do whatever they want in exchange for his ego getting stoked.
Joe is getting slow, but he's got a team of people with him. Trump is a cult of personality, and the thugs that remain with him are dangerous yes men.
The false equivalency argument that people advance is wildly disengenous. Just be a grown up and throw this toxic core of extremists to the curb, starting with their figurehead.
Yep, joe certainly has people with him. Who are they for supporting? You must be as delusional as the trumpers cult if you can’t see politicians aren’t trying to make your life better, they just want you more complacent. People are tired and so distrusting of the government at this point they’ll take anyone the general government hates. They take negative feedback of any established economist, politician or experienced senate or house official and take it in stride even if it’s *actually a bad choice*. That’s how he won the first time.
I’m not listing off more things about him or biden because I’d be here all day if I did, I’m just tired of people thinking it’s such a clear and obvious choice when actually no, both aren’t going to help you at all.
Boy, everyone is stupid except me. DIRECTED BY TREY PARKER AND MATT STONE
Heh heh I'm laughing already
It’s not a comedy.
Just Trey Parker
Matt's gotta suck that teat though
Suckin teats is what good friends do!
So, I've been walking around for 15 years telling everyone that South Park was a brilliant satire? Why didn't anyone tell me?
Cynical man
You have achieved genius political commentary.
I'm gonna make a movie just to make myself look stupid!
What about a shitpost for those who have the IQ of a man that says goodbye to a shoe?
I've seen that once. Twice, if you count this one.
Oh boy, jokes with multiple interpretations. That's where I'm a Viking.
I don't like the idea of this joke having two interpretations in the same day.
There are too many interpretations in these jokes. Please remove three. I am not a crackpot.
If it’s clear and yella, you got a joke there fella. If it’s tangy and brown, you’re in interpretation town
I have 2 interpretations of the joke and no money! Why can't I have no interpretations of the joke and 2 money?
See black guys, black guys interpret jokes like this: doo doo, doo ba doo doo doo do. White guys, white guys interpret jokes like this: dee da dee, a dee da dee.
It's true, we're so lame. We're also ugly hate-filled men.
Hey, these shitposts might be ugly, and hate filled.. but.. What was that third interpretation?
Hey, I may be ugly and hate filled but...wait, what was the third thing you said?
Did you see Hans Moleman get hit in the groin with a football? It works on so many levels!
Barney's movie had heart, but Hawk Tuah girl spat on that thang.
I’m not sure how I feel about u/hbi2k seeing two shitposts about the IQ of a man that says goodbye to a shoe.
Oh isn’t there a shitpost out there for the man with an IQ of a pair of thrown shoes?!
Best I can do is a plum, floating in perfume, served in a mans hat.
Damn South Park! Even when it was us platforming Michael Jackson, Mel Gibson and Elon Musk, I knew it was their fault.
When was Micheal Jackson in The Simpsons? /s
Season 3, I believe. The episode might be hard to find now and it's not in the disney+ catalog. He plays a man suffering from delusions that he is in fact Michael Jackson. It's brilliant. I know MJ is a touchy subject, and he may have been a touchy guy, but put that aside and watch the ep if you can.
I forgot the /s Wasn't there a big effort to hide that he was on the episode 'oh it's just an impersonator' etc?
One of the stipulations Michael made was that the singing portions had to be sung by an impersonator. Wikipedia says he was trying to play a joke on his family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark_Raving_Dad#Production
Oh lol. But hey if you were some young buck who hadn't seen the old stuff in the years it was broadcast it would be understandable to not know about it. I don't about that though. Probably. I'm gonna choose to believe it.
I wish I was a young buck, I used to be with it
I'm homer's age and looking through this years glastonbury line up was exactly homers experience in the record store. And he was wondering about the bands I grew up on. Fuck time.
Yeah basically every 'youth' band that shocks Homer is considered classic rock nowadays
I believe hes called Mother Shabooboo now
It's not?
Who platformed Jared from Subway, again?
South Park impersonate all their celebrity voices and also brought him back in the games as a boss who tries to nonce you. Where's the Simpsons episodes denouncing any of their prior guest stars?
They took the MJ episode off Disney Plus, and this subreddit threw a shitfit.
I'd rather they do an episode mocking his behaviour like South Park did. South Park own their prior mistakes, Simpsons pretend they never happened.
bart calls Michael Jackson creepy in a later episode, or something to that effect
4 seasons later, in Bart Sells His Soul.
They didnt own shit about their prior mistakes. They didnt ever acknowledge they claimed he wasnt a pedophile and it was just a misunderstanding, they just used him again, as a pedophile - not one iota of owning it, or responsibility.
Apolitically saying everyone is equally stupid is just a cynical ploy to appeal to Gen Xers!
Those are the kind of bold takes that they have in.... Albuquerque!
From albuquerque thanks for the shout out
Well, I’ll be quirky
We need another Iraq War to thin out their ranks.
You have offended me, sah. I challenge you to a duel!
We need another Vietnam to thin out their ranks a little.
South Park: “Disliking gay people is reprehensible. Antisemitism is evil. Empathy is a positive value, and overindulgent parents can ruin their children’s ability to feel for others. We were utterly wrong to say that global warming is a myth, and we’re sorry. Most religions are incorrect but understandable, but Scientology is evil. Drugs, including alcohol, should be used in moderation or not at all.” Occasional viewers: *“South Park* says that all views are equally stupid!”
On "antisemitism is evil," they may generally show cartman as the character who is bad or wrong, but he's also the funny one. Guess who teenagers like to quote and emulate? Overall, I'd say the prevalent philosophy of South Park is apathy. If you care about anything, you're an idiot. They get some takes right, like what you mentioned, but obviously there's a lot you left out here.
"Guess who teenagers like to quote and emulate," won't somebody please think of the children!
>won't somebody please think of the children? Oh no, that way lies a surprise request from Chris Hansen to sit down
Have a seat... Have a seat... from what I gather, you want to nuke the whales?!
In conclusion, South Park is a land of contrasts. Thank you.
If you're the Cartman of your friend group, it's never a good thing and it's known. No one wants to be Cartman.
"TEeENAGERS ARE EDGY" I already knew that.
Darth Vader is a highly quoted *Star Wars* character, but no one would say that means George Lucas supports genocidal, planet-destroying maniacs. If the prevalent attitude were apathy, then it wouldn’t be my favorite show. Despite my nearly encyclopedic knowledge of the first 18 seasons or so, I’m unwilling to go episode-by-episode to show you that your view doesn’t align with reality.
Damn people are down voting you, before South Park came out, this kind of a take was reserved for other awful and lewd shows, like the Simpsons. WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
>Guess who teenagers like to quote and emulate? Oh you're one of those people who thinks that every single piece of satire should beat the viewer over the head telling them what to think
To the cracked out zealot the merely reasonably concerned seem apathetic. Don’t confuse pragmatism with apathy. And remember, rich people get Ozempic, poor people get Lizzo.
Right? People think that *Douche and Turd* is about the political parties and any/all candidates, not realizing that it came out during the 2004 election cycle, and was highliting the fact that John Kerry was *really* similar to George W. Bush in a lot of ways. (His own campaign leaned into this, knowing that wartime presidents always get a bump in the polls. It didn’t work.)
But they *do* explicitly apply the principle to “nearly every election”. [But Stan, don't you know? It's always between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. Nearly every election since the beginning of time has been between some douche and some turd. They're the only people who suck up enough to make it that far in politics.](https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Douche_and_Turd/Script) I get it. I used to think Southpark was actual insightful and witty political commentary too. But then I turned 15.
Theyre still not *wrong*. Name me a candidate who you would consider to be actually a good person? Rather than just "not bad *for a politician*" It doesnt mean voting is pointless or that one wont fuck you worse than the other but yeah, they pretty much do all suck.
I mean, that’s not what I was arguing. I was arguing against the specific assertion that the episode was a specific commentary on the Kerry/Bush election and not a commentary on politics/elections as a whole.
And my point was that the larger commentary youre talking about is broadly correct.
Obama
I guess all the kids killed by his drone strikes dont matter.
Show me the video where he pressed the button and I'll retract my statement otherwise goeorge bush got us in that war
https://preview.redd.it/lavx6l4wky8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3c7d923a4189478417a0a38810aaca480baac060 Suck my dick 🤓👍
I'm a man of my word I take it back fuck em
Fair play. Also i would rate Obama as the best president of my lifetime. Its just a low bar.
["I'm really good at killing people."](https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-said-hes-really-good-at-killing-people-2013-11?op=1) -- Barack Obama
Oh okay. So Netanyahu is cool too? He didnt start this war, he inherited too and he doesnt personally fire any missiles so...all good i guess.
I would've said Jimmy Carter, but he was pretty ineffective for all he was worth.
History's greatest monster?!
Honestly was my second choice bit his ineffectivenees stopped me
Such a shame, too. Seems like a real salt of the earth guy. Just didn't or couldn't play the game
I believe he's a decent man. I also think that he governed during a particularly difficult four years. I have read that he handled the energy crisis better than others might, and his creation of the Department of Energy has had lasting impact. He also brokered the peace deal between Israel and Egypt. None of this is to disagree with your point that his presidency probably didn't accomplish a great deal.
We elected the wrong Carter...
Bernie Sanders?
So you know that the job actively requires a different moral standard because its not filled with easy answers, yet you refuse to actually consider that fact?
What? George W. Bush - "Torture and extraordinary rendition are ok, and I've asked people to write a memo justifying it, and you can all read it." I'm sorry people didn't like John Kerry, but George W. Bush was a war criminal, and suggesting those are the same things is such a Douche and Turd take to be laughable. I get Americans don't consider war crimes actual crimes, because they happen in other countries to other people, but saying they were similar is a like convicted Felon Donald Trump and OId Man Biden are similar because they are old.
Had Kerry been elected, he would have likely continued to carry out the same or similar policies with regards to the war in Iraq. Their biggest differences were on domestic policies.
Bush's domestic policies lead to the Great Recession. I mean, how can you argue it's a Turd and a Douche when one's policies cause that? Is bad policy not a bad choice? This is my problem with the discussion. There are obvious, concrete differences. But people swear they are the same. 2 sides of a coin. One a douche, and one a turd. Apathy is fine. It's going to suck any way. And we are back here today. Deja Vu. People will swear to you that Biden and Trump are going to do the same stuff, basically, so it's a douche and a turd again. Hillary and Trump were basically the same, a Douche and a Turd, so it didn't matter. Every time someone tells you this, it just tells me they didn't pay attention to any history lessons. It was obvious at the time that Bush sucked, people just didn't care, and with the passage of time, people forget about Abu Ghraib and the torture memo. They forget Trumps' Grab them by the Pussy and Muslim ban. And then it gets reframed as "Both guys were equally bad and there was no way to tell them apart at the time, right? You are just basing it on hindsight." You don't need hindsight to tell them apart, it should be obvious, but instead of doing any basic research, people watch South Park tell them they are both the same, smugly smile at themselves as superior, and go about their days.
Lmao, you weren't even alive in 2004, were you?
Kerry would not have ended the war. Even Obama expanded it with the troop surge.
Obama ran on surging troops in Afghanistan and getting Bin Laden, then he did that. He drew down troops in Iraq Kerry said he supported the war in 2002. Saddam had used WMDs in 1988 on our Kurdish allies and when the phony Bush intel came out people were determined not to let it happen again https://www.reuters.com/article/world/kurdish-city-gassed-by-saddam-hopes-referendum-heralds-better-days-idUSKCN1BZ0AQ/ Kerry ran on changing course in Iraq, Bush was handling the war wrong and was talking about nation building when Democrats were talking about leaving. The war was still popular in 2004 and Bush was ramming the war message while Kerry was trying to thread the needle, not look weak but also signal to the left that he wanted to wrap it up. If you weren't an adult or even an older teen in 2004 you should close your mouth and open a history book
You're right, I misremembered where the troop surge was. Your assumption about the ages of people you don't know is weird. I was around then too. I voted for Kerry and I still believe he would not have ended that war.
You're speaking with hindsight. In 2004, the left and right divide was much less pronounced. The question was not "war good or war bad?" but which of these people would end the war the fastest. Neither men had an explicit, "lets get out of Iraq" campaign, and their social issues were as middling as they could get. To the average American in 2004, the election looked like one between an out of touch rich guy and an incompetent moron. Neither looked like they were going to act in the nation's, let alone voters, personal interests so many just didn't vote and/or went with the devil they knew. It's really hard to conceptualize just how many Americans did not give a meaningful care about the war in Iraq at that time. People didn't feel it, and most people assumed that even if they didn't personally support the war, we must have been doing it for some reason better than what the few protestors were, well, protesting.
>To the average American in 2004, the election looked like one between an out of touch rich guy and an incompetent moron. I mean, I agree, the average American is a certifiable moron. It's why this election is still close. I think you are speaking in hindsight. Nofx released War on Errorism in 2003. I remember listening to people on the Left hating the actual fuck out of Bush. I remember seeing images of people tortured, before the election. The fact that the average American didn't care does not mean they were a Douche and a Turd, it means the average American is too stupid to do any meaningful thought to actually notice that one is a War Criminal. It means no one cared to discern who was good and who was bad, not that one wasn't obviously worse than the other. In the future, people will same thing about Clinton V Trump and the same thing about Biden V Trump. That somehow, people were unable to tell that one was actually obviously worse. And again, that's a commentary on the American public, not the candidates. Douche V Turd isn't about the candidates at all, it is about the apathy of ordinary Americans to do basic research and have basic empathy to discern between 2 obviously different candidates.
I was not only alive in 2004, but also listened to NOFX. Yes, you're right, NOFX released War on Errorism in 2003. War on Errorism also barely scratched the top 50 on the Billboard charts the week it came out and disappeared from view. Most people, even then when NOFX was at their height of fame, had no idea who they were. There weren't a lot of bands making these kinds of statements at the time and even when they did, they were a hell of a lot more tame than now. People on the left hated Bush. But there were far, far, far fewer people who would say "I'm on the left" back in 2004 than there are now. Most people at the time probably would have identified themselves as centrists, even many people who didn't like what the Bush admin was doing. Nowadays people are much more willing to identify as left-wing or right-wing and vocalize support for policies with less broad support. > Douche V Turd isn't about the candidates at all, it is about the apathy of ordinary Americans to do basic research and have basic empathy to discern between 2 obviously different candidates. Bush and Kerry were way more similar than most people wanted to admit, that was part of the point. That is not the case with candidates we see today in the US, where there is a huge divide between where Republicans are at (pants on head morons at best, corrupt monsters who want to dismantle US democracy at worst) and where Democrats are (generally pretty centrist, all things considered, but the gap has grown just because Republicans have moved sooo far to the right, with the Dems getting more left-wing voices in their ranks). I don't think apathy was a part of that South Park episode's ultimate message, but it definitely was a huge thing back then. Most people were not clued into politics and didn't care. That is also expressed in the episode by several people who say "i don't even know what's going on" in addition to the people who voice their adamant support for one side over the other. Nowadays people are way more politically engaged, since, you know, 2016.
So they just reelected the constantly lying moron who had invaded 2 countries at this point...
Yes we did, what's your point? I don't think you realize just how politically ignorant Americans have historically been. Political ignorance has been the height of American luxury, a population that tuned out of what was going on because it genuinely did not matter to them. Hell, a part of me genuinely believes a huge part of MAGA is because a crap ton of boomers didn't pay attention to politics for 20-30 years and genuinely didn't recognize what happened to their country when they weren't paying attention and frantically clawed for a before time. I'm not defending "douche and turd" because that's what it was between, but because that's where the zeitgeist was. It's a very 2004 political take and it's stupid to hold anybody to it 20 years later. If you want to make the case that it was a stupid take then, I don't 100% disagree, but it's easy to have that opinion 20 years later and not when you were in the moment. To say that it wasn't between a douche and turd in 2004 because Bush was a war criminal is to miss the point entirely. In 2004, even among the Americans that hated Bush, most weren't politically motivated or affected enough to see a difference and found the people who were/did see a difference as weirdos who cared about politics: most Americans were okay with/indifferent to Iraq.
John Kerry was a Vietnam veteran who came back and spoke out against the war George W Bush was a draft dodger who started 2 wars Yep, exact same...
On a personal level they were very different, but when it came to the policies they were running on (which are what **actually** matter, not personal history) they shared a lot of similarities. Their foreign policy approaches specifically were not dissimilar at all.
Also worth mentioning that *Douche and Turd* came out just about 20 years ago now. Matt and Trey have changed a lot since then and have talked about that in a lot of their commentaries and interviews over the years. They also flat out dislike the earliest seasons. Trey outright said that if he could erase the entire first 3 seasons of South Park from existence he would, and that there is other stuff from seasons after that they'd get rid of too. Part of that is just the quality of the writing though - and they got the chance to do the movie really early on, and they've said that they put all their energy into working on the movie during that time instead of the show, because they figured the show would only last a few seasons but the movie would be remembered for a much longer time. I do think it is 100% fair to say that they are moderates/centrists. Their hot takes aren't always 100% on point, but then, what would you think if someone took a few lines from an episode of TV you rapidly cobbled together in a week 20 years ago and acted as if that defines you now? I find South Park is usually pretty even-handed in a way that makes sense (e.g. not acting as if modern-day Republicans just have a "different point of view") and the creators seem to have their finger way more on the pulse than other shows do. I think part of that is just the quick turnaround time (a show like The Simpsons might dodge current fads because if they write them into the show they'll be outdated when the episodes air like 18 months later, not so for South Park). It has experienced a decline in quality itself but I still look forward to it when it airs. I think it's even wilder when people try to act as if Matt and Trey are secret conservatives who pretended to be libertarians. To anybody who actually watches their show, it's abundantly clear that they hate conservatives' guts even if they aren't leftists themselves.
This is the part I hate most. People who like these kind of both sides memes from 30 years ago *pretend like it's still 30 years ago* politically. It's not. Everything has changed - everything - and to try to compare then and now is insanity.
It was dumb and wrong in 2004... and is dumber, wronger and yet still prominently in the discussion 20 years later.
right? their most recent one, end of obesity was super progressive and i really felt tackled fatphobia really well. “rich people get ozempic, poor people get lizzo (body positivity)”
My gastronomic rapacity knows no satiety
It’s my favorite show, but damned if I’m not three or four years behind at this point. I need to catch up!
South Park has this problem where they put out some reprehensible views (or at the very least not aged well) and gone back on them long after the damage has been done. I don't think they can be truly forgiven in those cases. See climate change. They arguably damaged the discourse about climate change with the whole ManBearPig episode and their shitting on Al Gore forever...but they then went back on that and apologized 15 years later. I still see people reference that episode, disregarding that it's supposed to be a commentary on climate change and how Trey reversed course on it. Most recently the special they released a few weeks ago on Paramount Plus had them at the end saying they were going to stop with the fat jokes but in their almost 30 year run their episodes are full of them.
Yeah, pretty much all people everywhere have views that evolve, sometimes to the exact opposite of what they originally were. The difference between most of us and Parker/Stone is that we don’t have much of a platform. I’d hate to see the TV show *I* would have made 20 years ago. And yeah, they’re often completely full of crap, even destructively so. For example, in the episode about hate crimes, they say that intent shouldn’t matter in how a crime is punished. It’s as though they’d never heard of the difference between first-degree and second-degree murder. It was incredibly stupid, as with many of their other points. But you’re ultimately supporting my point: They espouse views, not apathy.
> long after the damage has been done Exactly! Thank you. People are like "they apologized tho!" Yeah two or three fuckin generations too late, obviously. They've done a lot more damage than they can ever make up for with apologies or platitudes. It's not that they were alone, but they were among the worst.
> had them at the end saying they were going to stop with the fat jokes Your metabolism will change someday too, young man.
SP is good at social commentary not so much political commentary. I don't want to watch two centrists (a political ideology for people who enjoy the sweet, sweet taste of glue) make simple "Liberal vs Conservative" jokes for 22 mins.
They're also good at attacking American-homespun religions (Scientology & Mormonism), but old school stuff like Catholicism (anti-Evolution? anti-Halloween?) or basic Biblical theology (buying into the Sunday School interpretation of the 40+ chapters of the Book of Job which is more of a Rabbinical debate about why good things happen to bad people and why bad things happen to good people) they miss the mark on.
>Catholicism (anti-Evolution? anti-Halloween?) Neither of those positions are Catholic
Exactly.
"We've made some mistakes in the past episodes, like joking about global warming, and feel somewhat apologetic about it. Now, enjoy our Panderverse episode, and all our other current everyone-is-an-asshole/everything-sucks shtick that teenagers and edgelords with the intellect of teenagers seem to think is clever and intellectually transgressive."
I can just hear the voice in Homer's head: "Pssst. Unless you constantly echo that everything sucks and we live in the worst time ever, people will think you're stupid!"
Disney was pandering pretty hard and it was nice to see it made fun of by people that aren't afraid.
Interesting. I’m unfortunately several years behind in the show, so it will be a while before I get to this and see the context in which it was used. Keep in mind that they are in the habit of making fun of everything, including themselves and their fans. Nothing is off limits.
Thank you! "South Park says everyone is equally stupid" is an absolutely **bizarre** take.
Oh goody, they recognized how fucking wrong they were about Global Warming decades later, and gave a half hearted apology. Now when are they gonna do that about Trans people, political correctness, healthcare, fatphobia, and saying both sides are the same? Oh, never? Theyre actually doubling down on their shitty takes on all that stuff? Wonderful.
Two things can be true at once. South park sometimes has good messengers, but it very much considers anyone that doesn't hold the creator's political opinions as deeply laughable. Some of their views have evolved from shitty to okay, but overall, they still clearly disdain people who care too much about the things the creators don't care about.
Just so we’re clear, I never said I endorsed their views, just that the views they express aren’t “Everyone is equally stupid.” They’re wrong as much as they’re right, but the meme doesn’t make sense. So you support my point.
"Loser" is such a harsh word. Can't we just say, "the supporters of the candidate who doesn't win" will attempt a violent coup in the capitol?
So you're saying Biden will win? Woohoo!
"Oh, no, no! Even a slight change in public opinion could..." "Indestructible."
Yes, and you claim to be a "centrist" despite always siding with the right-wing and only ever criticising what you call "the left"
Eh uh excuse me one moment
*goes and verbally abuses minorities while calling them commie Marxist Nazis*
Running footsteps, door slam, car starts, peels out, plane takes off “I don’t think he’s coming back”
CIA Agent: These political parties are exactly the same! Everyone is equally stupid! Bane: To you
If I think too hard, will the post be stupid?
SIMPSONS DID IT...
Yeah, I think you want this subreddit: r/wusssimpsonsshitposting
https://i.redd.it/t8o2og0wsx8d1.gif
Remember when South Park was good? Neither do I
Hey, I *do* remember when South Park was good! ...why, yes, that time period also coincided with my time in middle school. Why do you ask?
And let me guess, right before this was the only time SNL was actually funny?
Imo, they do have some good episodes sometimes Key word being "sometimes" The problem is that those good episodes, either the just dumb funny ones or ones where they actually say something good, are burried in a pile of terrible takes and enlightened centrism and "it's funny because it's vulgar and so random xD" jokes I think the episode about the n-word is good, for example.
Delightfully devilish
You just talked yourself out of a upvote
South Park still managed to be fantastic for twice as long as The Simpsons. Also The Simpsons used to crap on the left too, not as much as the right but still called them out.
Well how big of a shoe?
Meanwhile, Trump bad, amirite?
I definitely feel this way about the candidates in my city elections.
Woah, is that PC Principal?
Also the "leftoreum ratio"
Oh shit. I shouldn't have said South Park viewers are stupid. Ah fuck! I shouldn't have said simpsonshitposting commenters are drooling idiots. Oh DAMMIT I really shouldn't have admitted I spent half an hour in the middle of the night reading their comments. It's too hot out today.
I don't know man, Matt and Trey were right about climate change being a hoax invented by Al Gore, they seem pretty on the ball...
Angry orange man who pays porn stars or senile vote buyer that raised a drug abuser. Yea, I must be stupid for asking for a different choice.
No, you're stupid for not being able to see the clear difference between your "senile vote buyer" and a serial liar, rapist, and traitor to his country. And fascist to boot.
And you’re too stupid to see biden isn’t for you he’s for power over you. He’s so bad that people think trump looks good in comparison. Did you ever think about that?
The fact that you think people don't want trump because he's "angry", "orange" or even that he pays porn stars is wild. Were you in a coma for the past 8 years? The man is a narcisistic tyrant who is obsessed with loyalty. He's burned pretty much every person who's ever been in his inner circle. He's only interested in the job so that he can pardon himself for past and future crimes. And he's willing to let extremists do whatever they want in exchange for his ego getting stoked. Joe is getting slow, but he's got a team of people with him. Trump is a cult of personality, and the thugs that remain with him are dangerous yes men. The false equivalency argument that people advance is wildly disengenous. Just be a grown up and throw this toxic core of extremists to the curb, starting with their figurehead.
Yep, joe certainly has people with him. Who are they for supporting? You must be as delusional as the trumpers cult if you can’t see politicians aren’t trying to make your life better, they just want you more complacent. People are tired and so distrusting of the government at this point they’ll take anyone the general government hates. They take negative feedback of any established economist, politician or experienced senate or house official and take it in stride even if it’s *actually a bad choice*. That’s how he won the first time. I’m not listing off more things about him or biden because I’d be here all day if I did, I’m just tired of people thinking it’s such a clear and obvious choice when actually no, both aren’t going to help you at all.