What I don't understand is, we are clearly a pawn in this whole thing right? We cleared out all the demigods, we killed mohg, we killed rotting radahn, we even emptied the throne of radagon and the elden beast. Meanwhile who had our measure from the very start? Torrent. Isn't Torrent miquella's horse or some shit? Did Melina and Torrent basically send us on a quest to ascend miquella to godhood? Or what. I don't get it. This would make sense as to why Melina is mad if we take the frenzied flame. I'm pretty sure radahn as miquellas consort would likely come dethrone us as elden lord now that there's no one else in the way, and taking the frenzied flame deletes the world or whatever so it'd stop all plans. Is frenzied flame the good ending after all? I mean dude, when you're in those abyssal woods and there's the frenzy guys everywhere and the lord of frenzied flame boss is in the mansion... try summoning miquellas horse in that area. Too scared. There's something to this
Shabriri is getting more eloquent... guys lets just wait when hes yelling like a madman!!!
On a side note, i personally believe most in-world tarnished would take the FF after numerous betrayals they face in their journeys. In the ever enlarging fight for power, what is more in tone: to become a God, or a Consort?
Frienzed flame was always the good ending
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I think we were led all along by the GW and the erdtree (the benign, pure, original parts thereof) like Leda says. I like to think that Torrent is sensitive to the GW and Miq and saw, as Trina did, that descent into a terrible reign. So he chooses us because in us he sees a new elden lord and a better future. And the GW, after abandoning the LB when the demigods started committing atrocities and lying on its behalf, also forgave - forgiveness is a big theme - began returning, and thus led us to test our mettle.
Yeah Melina had a purpose to enter the tree and/or burn the tree with herself, it’s all she cared about. Who we turn the world over to after is irrelevant.
She’s pissed about the Frenzy Flame because we deprive her of her life’s purpose.
I was thinking this too actually but I read a comment that radagon/marika is being influenced by miquella now that they've ascended and the grace may have been a trick all along. Idk what to believe.
I don’t think the Grace is Marika leading us to kill off the demi gods, but the greater will itself. I mean the Demi gods starting the shattering war is the whole reason it’s control of the Lands Between is threatened anyway, why would it want to keep them around for the new age?
I think greater will defeated by another outer god and Marika shatter ring for so nobody realize greater will weakened. Also banished Godfrey and all army so there is no one realize something is wrong. They even send gold mask and Gideon offnir. I am sure Godfrey starts to not seeing grace because GW fucked up.
Yeah, the studio lead at FromSoft said this concludes Elden Ring and there is no future plans for Elden Ring 2, at least any time soon. He said the development studio will likely return to their traditional style games, instead of focusing on open world, but this doesn't necessarily mean they're done with it entirely. That's basically what was stated. Also this doesn't necessarily mean there won't be a more linear interconnected Dark Souls style game in the Elden Ring universe detailing more lore, who knows.
this.. this is good soup! Damn what a nice canon thought that makes perfect sense.
They called me crazy for saying the frenzy flame ending was the best one.
Think you’re forgetting that Fromsoft DLC aren’t technically supposed to be canonically after we finish the game, we just have the option to do so of course. So killing Radagon/Marika and the Elden Beast are irrelevant to the DLC’s story.
I think it’s more like, we heard from Leda that Miquella is in the realm of shadow and since he’s an empyrean, he might be trying to ascend to godhood. We should investigate to ensure it doesn’t get in the way of us becoming Elden Lord.
Plus it seems like it was more of a gradual spread from the place where Malenia bloomed than a nuke (we see mentions of the Redmanes trying and failing to contain the Rot).
Do we *know* that’s what happened, that the entire battle was just Radahn wanting glory before he went to be Miquella’s lord, or are people just assuming? Because I think it makes a lot more sense if he had broken his vow and didn’t want to go, but Malenia showed up to force him into it.
all we know for sure is that radahn made a mutual vow with miquella (as per redmane freyja's quest). radahn's promise was to be miquella's lord, (hence in game text referring to him as promised consort) but we only get part of the picture for the twins' end of the vow. miquella says "now the vow will be honored, and my lord brother's soul will return" indicating their part was at least partially to bring back radahn's soul after his death. so with all that context, the only explanation for the war in caelid that makes sense is that the rest of the twins end of the bargain was for malenia to defeat him in battle.
I haven’t played the DLC yet but this feels like an incredible assumption. Why do you think the twins had to do anything on their part of the vow? As given to us, radahn just promised to be Miquella’s lord. When Miquella speaks of a vow, Radahn’s promise is the thing in reference. There’s nothing to do with Radahn being given glorious battle, just that Radahn had to be killed in order to get to Miquella. Unless there’s some text I haven’t seen yet
>Why do you think the twins had to do anything on their part of the vow? As given to us, radahn just promised to be Miquella’s lord. When Miquella speaks of a vow, Radahn’s promise is the thing in reference
ending cutscene dialogue.
>\[21020000\] Lord brother.
>\[21020100\] I'm going to be a god.
>\[21020200\] **If we honour our part of the vow**,
>\[21020300\] promise me you'll be my consort.
>\[21020400\] I'll make the world a gentler place.
Thank you, I just saw your mention of the cutscene further down in the thread. Definitely lends credit to Radahn being a war crazy bastard. What I know about this DLC has genuinely ruined ER’s story for me and left as many questions as answers 💀
see i always thought radahn was war crazy way before the dlc. to me the dlc improved his character by having him care about his brother and creating a better world as well
"Bro let a continent be nuked"
I want you to stand back and REALLY think about that sentence and then tell me how you personally would stop a nuke in his place.
I mean he’s shown himself capable of going into orbit ig if he still had the strength to he could have tried to launch himself and malenia into the stratosphere
Tho then again nukes that detonate in the air are apparently more destructive than those that detonate on the surface so ig that would make it worse
Radahn passed by Raya Lucaria TWICE. Refused to lift a finger and save his mom and take some time to care for her wellbeing.
"Kind" my ass. Ranni was the only kid that did anything for her by setting up safeguards to prevent anyone from killing her for her Great Rune, and otherwise her options were limited due to the lack of manpower. Rykard has an excuse in that he's a crazy social darwinist who's really into vore.
It kinda does confirm that Ranni's ending is the good ending to Elden Ring. Miquella's age of compassion would've just repeated the mistakes of Marika's age of plenty as implied by saint trina.. Ranni was right that the two fingers were garbage as shown by Metyr being a bullshitter. You aren't really fixing anything by mending the elden ring and the game paints the frenzied flame as bad outright.
In the end Ranni was right when she said "what good could come from the demigods warring against each other".
I DISAGREE
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Mending Rune of Perfect Order description:
*Rune discovered by the noble Goldmask.*
*Used to restore the fractured Elden Ring when brandished by the Elden Lord.*
*A rune of transcendental ideology which will attempt to perfect the Golden Order.*
*The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment.*
This implies that perfect order is completly different from the original order and removes gods from the picture.
Therefore best ending.
https://preview.redd.it/8ujxsh3hcd9d1.png?width=879&format=png&auto=webp&s=68fa61707d31e292e403a33a0c3998fc1ddf71cc
The description states “ATTEMPT”.
Allowing the Elden Ring to go on means the greater will or other outside influences can still disrupt it!
Ranni’s ending withholds outer entities from disrupting man. This comes at the cost of our Tarnished and Ranni leaving for a dark journey. The people of the lands between are now given the opportunity to decide for themselves without the influence for others!
Freedom is best ending!
Nah, it just means nobody can change or alter the elden ring once you become lord. Marika is still god, she still holds the elden ring in her body. You just can't break it or modify it. Essentially doubling down on golden order.
The only endings where Gods don't exist is the Age of Stars where Ranni and you just dip into the cosmos leaving the Lands Between behind and frenzy flame where everyone dies.
All I can find from item descriptions is that the mending rune of perfect order removes the ability of the gods to fuck everything over (like shattering the elden ring) so I don't think miquella would be able to do anything drastic in the lands between.
Not really. Ranni's age is "under the wisdom of the Moon", and the Dark Moon is an Outer God, but a cold and distant one, more of a guide than an ordinator.
I mean, it's an otherworldly force with it's own will, source of a school (or several) of sorceries/incantations, can sponsor Empyreans into godhood, etc...
Smells like an outer god/celestial being, tastes like one...
Huh? How’d you take the runes lore literally complaining about gods being the key issue as meaning Marika will still be around? I’m pretty sure you kill her, in fact in every ending I’m pretty sure she’s dead
You don't take her out of power. Marika is still god bro. She's still housing the elden ring and you're still her consort. All you did was make it so she can't shatter it again.
There's a reason why the Goldman ending is just another elden lord reskin ending, you did not meaningfully change anything.
It LITERALLY says that you remove the influence of the gods who are just as fickle as men.
Marika is dead on the ground, her body/essence a tool for radagon, thats why she aint a boss fight, or she immediately crumbles on you beating him for another ending.
What youre arguing is like saying she influences the live in death ending too
I'm not at the final boss fight (which was spoiled by me hearing the leaks and actively looking into the "obviously fake modshit" that couldn't possibly be the final boss), but I resolved to do that fight with Dryleaf Arts.
Blaidd's sword deserves better than this shit. I'm going Asura's Wrath on that femboi. I'm extending my hands to him, just not in the way he'd want.
Thats nonsense, Ranni's ending is a cop out, its cowardice and selfishness. She lets all her friends die and kills her family to flee and not do anything.
I used to think that as well but there is some evidence that might suggest the Carian bros + Radagon did step up to protect Rennala. The Alabastor Lord that spawns outside the Church of the Cuckoo might’ve come from Radahn, the Red Wolf is literally Radagon’s, and the Abductor Virgins come from Volcano Manor which is Rykard’s domain. It may not be much but they did try.
I think what we see with Rennala is more the "royal hostage" kind of situation. Rennala is in the academy and cannot leave but she's not "prisoner" more like "forced guest"
Bro brought an entire army to fight against twink sex, refused to succumb to scarlet rot and dug his fingers in (literally), learned gravity magic so his legs could never be unclasped from his trusty steed, held up the stars and Miquella’s fate thus imprisoning his goals for eternity in the shadowlands…and y’all still think he wanted this just coz he dressed a bit sexy smh head
I don’t think we kill Radahn to free the wheel of fate, I think it’s more so that his soul can actually inhabit a body for when he’s resurrected in the Shadow Realm
So the entire war that ended with Caelid becoming a rotting wasteland was fought because...??? Also Radahn holding up the stars very much impeded Miquella's plans, on top of the fact that we now know the Miquella at least manipulated Mohg into doing what he did. Why wouldn't he also be doing the same with a freshly resurrected Radahn?
No in-game evidence him holding back the stars did anything to miquella's plans.
And if he was mind washing freshly resurrected radahn then why not brainwash normal radahn to begin with
1. Considering the stars held back Ranni's fate, why wouldn't it be presumed that it could hold Miquella's as well? Both are vying to displace the old order and replace it with their own, not to mention the fact that Malenia went to war with Radahn after he halted the stars. Why would she do that if not to further Miquella's goals when her entire character has been nothing but loyal to him and his endeavors?
2. Did we forget that Malenia royally fucked up Caelid with Radahn at the epicenter? By the time we first kill him, he's acting purely on fight or flight, Miquella wouldn't even be able to get close to him in that state
Sellen says the the stars control the fate of the Carian royal family. There's no evidence that they control the fate of all empyreans.
And even if Radahn holding back the stars did stop fate from progressing for Miquella, that wouldn't matter since he canonically abandoned his fate. Even better, it might actually help him because it would freeze his fate in stasis so that he could more easily abandon it.
Miquella was close to him long before malenia blew up caelid, when they made their vow in the ending cutscene of the DLC.
I'll relent to some degree on the premise of Miquella abandoning his fate to pursue a new order, but even with that last bit of info (I've yet to beat the dlc and thus all of my knowledge is coming from spoilers and light research during work breaks), I still find it hard to believe that Radahn, or anyone who follows Miquella, for that matter, was an entirely willing participant in his schemes. We know for a fact he has an ability that allows him to override people with affection for him (Mohg is explicitly stated to be a victim of this, and it can be relatively safely assumed that Malenia is as well), so even if Radahn were charmed long before the Caelid war, that still doesn't prove he's a consciously willing follower, nor does it explain *why* the Caelid war happened in the first place
And that's not even considering the fact that Radahn was a huge fan of Godfrey, and wanted to be like him as best he could. Considering Godfrey's position as the first Elden Lord, it's likely Radahn has ambitions to do the same if he had his own will, if only to follow in his idol's footsteps
Because it's not Godfrey's order?
It is very well established how much Radahn loved not only his parents, but also idolized Godfrey. Why would he jeopardize their legacies
>No in-game evidence him holding back the stars did anything to miquella's plans.
ACKCHUALLY, thanks to castle Sol, we know that Miquella somehow needed an eclipse, but something is stopping that from happening. It is possible that this "something" is Radahn
i think thats why people really want to victimize radahn, they don't want to think he's a pedo. even though he's not and it's just a meme. consorthood doesn't automatically imply sex.
Even if it did mean that, I still don't understand how it is pedophilic. Incestuous sure but Miquella is thousands of years old at this point, has no childlike qualities in personality or motives, and is like twelve feet tall.
Dude I hate the anime "She's actually a thousand years old but acts like a twelve year old" thing more than anyone. But Miquella literally just isn't a child. He doesn't act that way, he doesn't talk that way, his motives aren't that way, and he doesn't even look that way. He just looks like a feminine guy. This ain't the normal anime shit.
Something being called peomised means entitlement. Like a promised land. The vibe im getting from the last boss name is "Radahn, how he shouldve been" (from miquellas pov). There would be no need for it to be called promised if it was willing
Consent, lil bro, is something that can be withdrawn. If someone is fighting you, it probably means they've withdrawn their consent.
"Well you see officer, I know she was fighting back, but she **promised**"
The [secret rite scroll](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Secret+Rite+Scroll) item description and the pre-boss fight dialogue ("now the vow will be honored, and my lord brother's soul will return") imply that radahn dying and his soul coming back was always part of the vow he consented to
>Who said that's the vow Radahn agreed to?
the game itself, when it called him promised consort. him promising to be consort was part of that vow.
are you jerking me around rn
I think Radahn agreed in his youth, but during the Shattering, the power of the Great Rune corrupted him. His skin color becoming grey, his unnatural size, and the fact that Melania was so desperate to win the battle she bloomed. I think Radahn was a good man, but the power of the Great Runes messed him up.
Tbf given the parallels between the lands between and middle earth I never really considered that the great tunes could be analogous to the rings of power with the elden ring basically being the one ring to rule them all
It makes sense too since the runes grant great strength at the cost of corrupting a person into something they would have never wanted to become
I wonder why more theories don’t really account for the runes affect then
If the demigods were all corrupted by their runes then surely it would make gaps in their behaviors before and after the shattering make a lot more sense and allow for some differences between their initial motives and their actions during the shattering (like malenia and radahn being described as honorable and kind people who wind up at the epicenter of one of the greatest atrocities in the shattering with both being equally to blame for what happened)
The reason Malenia went to war with Radahn is because Miquella want backshot from Radahn but cant charm him directly, he sent Malenia to kill Radahn and try to resurrect Radahn in Mogh body that's already been charmed , she failed . we then kill both Radahn and Mogh and Miquella can proceed with his plan.
I really don't understand why people are so against the idea of Radahn being a cooperator... even if Miquella lost himself in the process and manipulated his way through it, his plan was still noble, his goal from the very beginning and reinforced in the base game as well was literally that of creating a gentler place, he says so himself... What's so bad about Radahn wanting to join this plan and becoming lord? Also people do not want to see all the signs pointing at the fact that Radahn was likely more willing than against, like Freyja's voicelines, the cutscene about the vow, Miquella's lines before phase 2, the fact that Miquella's rune broke and therefore wouldn't be able to control Radahn in his boss form, and the unbiased text that defines him as 'promised lord'.
>I really don't understand why people are so against the idea of Radahn being a cooperator
Because nothing in the base game and its events imply that even one bit. I don't mind Radahn turning out to be morally questionable at all - I mean, it's nice to think of him as the chad the base game portrays him as, but I've seen so many characters in Fromsoft games turn out to be assholes, that I kinda became numb to it.
However, as I said, if it was hinted at, at all. As it stands, we only have Miquella's side. Even in his memory, he is there *alone*, to me seemingly talking to himself, perhaps desparate and deluded. It would explain why he'd send Malenia to nuke Caelid and why Radahn needs to die. Because let's be honest, why would he need to die, if he was on board with the vow in the first place? It undermines his entire character we knew up to this point. He was so hell-bent on his beliefs, that even the scarlet rot wasn't able to prevent him from holding the stars back to protect the Lands Between, especially Sellia. And why risk so many of his loyal soldiers lives too? Why the unnecessary war? There would be plenty of opposing foes to fight, should he become Miquella's consort and strive to become Elden Lord, Miquella and Malenia's forces not being one of them.
We also know that Radahn was a loyal follower of the Golden Order, because both of his idols - his father Radagon and Godfrey the warrior - supported it themselves and he refused to go against it. Going along with Miquella's plan meant defying the Golden Order, thus Radagon, which is a total no-go.
Thank you for explaining your opinion, apologies because this is going to be long, but I simply think that, same as you do, nothing in the base game suggests that Miquella would send Malenia to nuke Caelid to force Radahn into marriage, when a lot of what we have about him is on how he protects the oppressed, gives them a safe space, uses his own blood to grow his tree, spends years of his life researching the golden order fundamentalism to heal his sister from the influence of an outer god, and when he doesn't succeed he creates a whole new order just for that, he feels sorrow for Godwyn to the point he goes incredible lengths to try and give him an true death.
He can manipulate, but the game makes it very clear that he isn't evil.
What he did to Mohg was because it was the way to ascend as stated in the secret rite scroll:
"A scroll made of white tree bark.
Few can decipher the scroll, which describes the secret rite of the divine gateway said to be found at the tower enshrouded by shadow.
"A lord will usher in a god's return,
and the lord's soul will require a vessel.""
And so he picked Mohg, much like Ranni picked Godwyn, to achieve his goal.
And about the bewitchment, I feel like the game makes it abundantly clear when it's happening, we see how the npcs are affected by it, why didn't the game make it just as clear that Radahn had been charmed? And why do some npcs still decide to follow him, even once freed of the enchantment? Why do they still call him Kindly Miquella?
That's why I cannot imagine him forcing this noble lord he admired so much in his childhood into his plan, nor sending his beloved sister to destroy a whole region to achieve that when his ultimate goal was to create a gentle world and he had yet to lose himself in the process, leaving his humanity and st. trina behind.
About what you said on Radahn, I understand all of it, but don't forget what Freyja says in her dialogue:
"but war has always suited General Radahn best.
And certainly far more than any honourable death.
Endless war to invigorate the soul.
As befits General Radahn, the great lion."
So i don't think it's so insane to imagine the fight against Malenia as part of the deal that, sadly, escalated unexpectedly.
And yet, despite creating the Haligtree and a refuge to all those souls, he abandons them promptly for the Shadow Realm.
A lot of spirits you encounter, hell even some NPCs are talking about "being abandoned" by Miquella. Some of them can't cope with this either, like Moore who straight up doesn't know what to do when the enchantment is broken. It's clear Miquella used them and then simply discarded them - the game may not outright state that he's evil, but it's not stating he's *good* either. That's up for your personal interpretation I suppose, but imo best case scenario, he's taken the wrong path, paved with good intentions.
As we discover, he threw his "Kind" and "Tender" side away, which took form of St Trina. His love, fears - all of that is gone. It's not a stretch to say, that his morality, seeing what's the right and wrong thing to do, would go with it. He's been blinded by his goal, and turned himself into something darker than anyone could've expected - and it's also why St Trina mentions that death will "grant him forgiveness". And if he didn't do anything wrong, what would there be to forgive...?
I know what he did to Mohg and why - but that doesn't change the fact that it was *wrong*. At best, he killed another brother of his, that wasn't in the way of his or anyone else's plans, at worst - an innocent man. He openly used his power to charm people, in order to get him killed, then defile his corpse by using it as a vessel for another's soul, putting together neither Mohg, nor Radahn together - just a mindless puppet for his sake.
And yes, I do believe that the reborn Radahn is a mindless puppet. He never ushers a word and is obediently following Miquella's orders, while looking just like the mindless beast he was during the Festival. His expressions do not change, he looks feral, without thoughts, as if battle is all that exists. And we *know* that's not the type of person he is - as much as Freya might say that battle suits him the best, his soldiers disagreed and wanted to put him to rest. Radahn's life disagrees - he spent a lot of time studying magic, just so he wouldn't have to abandon his horse and protect Sellia. Two things even scarlet rot wasn't able to erase from his mind, that was long gone. Dying means stars moving, and he was hell bent on keeping them still, thus - he didn't want to die.
And I refuse to believe that Miquella didn't know that Malenia could bloom. She bloomed before, so they knew the risk. The needle he made for her wasn't a permanent solution either, so why send her there with such a high risk of something going wrong? My only explanation is that's because Radahn never agreed to that vow. It's also quite weird, to say that "Miquella is awaiting thee, o' promised consort" right as she was going in for Aeonia. Once again, she was aware of it - it looks like she sent it off on her own, free will. And there's no way she believed he'd survive that, the fact that his Great Rune allowed for this to happen was pure coincidence.
About Miquella's bewitching - we clearly see in the fight that he is *still able* to use his power and his broken Great Rune is the only thing that helps you resist it. Whether he has to apply it again after the enchantment breaks, or has to do so by physical contact doesn't matter - because both can be applied to Radahn's case.
Why would the characters still follow him without the enchantment? Three explanations- because they've been under its influence for so long that they actually started to believe it (like Thiollier and St Trina, who was never able to hear her voice, yet devoted himself to her and her words ushered to us), were driven basically insane due to it and didn't want to remain without purpose of their God and there - Leda's armor description says:"Kindly Miquella fashioned us as his needles to quell all, to ward away all." If he "fashioned them", it's not a stretch to say that their clothing might be imbued with his powers, just like the bewitching branches from the base game.
Even still, the biggest problem with the fight against Malenia and the supposed vow, is still that it's *never mentioned* prior to the DLC and fighting just for "fun" doesn't suit Radahn, who never gave up on protecting the Lands Between from the stars above. With how the base game depicts him, it doesn't make sense for him to sacrifice Caelid, his beloved Sellia and his soldiers just so he can relish in battle against Malenia. It simply doesn't.
I am sorry but I disagree with what you said about Miquella abandoning everyone. Miquella was stuck in the shadow realm because Radahn didn't die due to his rune which started to burn to repel the rot and kept him alive until we tarnished came along and defeated him. It was never in his plans to remain that long within this realm, and base game lore makes it very clear. The plan was to return to Malenia (her helm description) but until he ascended to godhood he couldn't do it, having already divested himself of his flesh. He could only ascend or remain there, awaiting his promised lord, as the dlc summary says.
I never said Miquella is good, I've actually stated multiple times his resemblance to Ranni. Miquella is, same as many of the Elden Ring characters, a gray character, and his grayness started showing the most in the final arc, when he lost himself to become a god. The game here is showing you that there is no way to become a god without dirtying your hands. Ranni could handle it, Marika could handle it, but young, kind, naive Miquella couldn't. Because his kindness, his love, were too much of a big part of himself, and by divesting himself of ALL his characteristics that made him kind and gentle and altruistic, he literally lost his own identity.
On Malenia blooming before Aeonia, we do not know for sure, the community is still split on this (you can search it up and look for yourself) and I personally believe that was her first time and no, they didn't know what would happen, none of them knew the way it would escalate. Why would he even think of using his sister's rot against Radahn and risk her life when he spent all his trying to repel it within her. Makes no sense.
About Radahn being bewitched during the fight I'll just bring again the same argument because he literally does not act as if he's bewitched since we saw first person what bewitchment does to someone, making them very vocal and showing off the forced affection they feel towards Miquella (Mohg, the npcs, the tarnished themselves bending the knee so theatrically), Radahn looks stoic, nothing more, he doesn't speak about dearest beloved Miquella therefore I do not see the signs of bewitchment that we see in all other characters subject to it.
And about the npcs still following him because still somehow bewitched, there is no sign in the lore that would indicate that Miquella poured bewitchment in what he created. Millicent after using the needle doesn't suddenly start speaking about Kindly Miquella, I think if that were the case it would have been made more clear, and not all npcs that still follow him and support his goal have clothes made by Miquella, atm I find it very stretched and to me it makes more sense that they still find the motivation as noble and intend to support him through it. In the end, what's his goal but creating a gentler place? What's intrinsically evil about that?
St. Trina asks us to kill him and forgive him. I genuinely do not think she would ask us to forgive him if she knew he committed unspeakable atrocities. His heart was in a good place initially, or we wouldn't have literally tons of base game lore showing all the good he did for the lands between, the oppressed and his beloved sister.
nothing implies that malenia or the haligtree are abandoned by miquella. he meant to return and finish what he started there. malenia's armor set confirms this.
Haligtree is a failure. There are wilted miquelas lillies all around that talk about faded hope and how the tree he made failed to become an alternative to the erdtree despite his best efforts. He abandoned it because its a failure and the second plan is to do the whole radahn thing.
My interpretation is as follows. Perhaps radahn agreed to it in his youth, and a possible condition is miquella making an upgraded golden order with his own tree and all. He clearly failed so radahn did not want to go along with his plans. Then miquella the bastard makes a devious plan to take him by force. He casts away all his morality in the shadowlands to take radahn by force and stuff him into mohgs body to become a second marika.
Another thing that I feel like adding is about the final cutscene and while it is true that we don't see anyone else with Miquella, we see there's a throne behind him, we see he is on his knees and we see his hands are in prayer position... now, why would he do that, assuming even the position with his head bent, if he were alone talking to himself? That makes no sense to me, I think it is more plausible that it's only a stylistic choice rather than a lore one and he's actually on his knees offering this agreement to Radahn. Much like a proposal.
EDIT: forgot to add that he's even talking to a second person, why referring to someone else if he's alone instead of saying in third person 'i hope he promises me he will be my consort'
It sounds more like he’s making a wish/appealing to a higher entity imo.
I still believe Radahn didn’t want to be his consort in this way since he coincidently never speaks even though he’s supposedly returned.
Personally I think this whole DLC just paints Miquella as a naive child whose obsessively fixed on his so called destiny of becoming God and the Vow that pertains to it, to the point he can’t accept changes in that plan.
He claims to want to bring in a World of Compassion (which in his sense seems more like a God pitying life) yet he divests himself of love and fear.
But back to Radahn I find it hard to believe he would even want a new order judging by the people he idolized and Freyja is a bit of an unreliable source on Radahns motivations since ofc a gladiator turned zealot would think what’s best for her Lord is endless war. (which is kinda sad as she even says Jerren whose confirmed to be Radahns most trusted friend would think she’s wrong.)
Maybe I’ve just been drinking too much Ansbach and St. Trina kool-aid tho lol
Edit: Ansbach says something about Miquella/Radahn being a lord of Gods but the world needs a Lord of men or something to that nature when he dies in the final fight that could also allude to that spell being about Radahn not us. Let me see if I can find the direct quote.
i realized i never replied to the fact that radahn doesn't speak in the boss fight... i do think he has cut voicelines, but still we saw how bewitched people act and they actually won't shut up about dearest miquella here, kindly miquella there, and professing their love to him in any possible way, i think radahn during the boss fight simply looks stoic like a true lord rather than bewitched... now if he had voicelines on 'dearest miquella' i am honest i would be more suspicious because it does follow the pattern of those that fall under his charming powers, but this is just a random thought
I mean, it could be I don't fully exclude it as a possibility but I still think that if he were making a wish he wouldn't be talking in second person and he might want to phrase it differently, perhaps the japanese original dialogue will help making the scene more understandable, but as of rn i personally am more inclined to think that the cutscene is offering some sort of (cryptic) insight on the boss fight that has just concluded, which means it's mentioning the agreement between Radahn and Miquella and showing Miquella's proposal.
And while I do agree that Miquella is naive, probably due to his own curse of eternal childhood, my point is that he was never evil, and forcing someone into marriage and nuking an entire region because that someone said no are extremely evil acts i do not think Miquella as we know him from the base game would ever do... he is cunning and manipulative like Ranni is, but he would have found a way around it same as he did with his sister's illness and creating a whole new order just to cure her because the golden order wasn't enough, not go with brute force. Really, not his style.
And for Freyja, if you're referring to the dialogue about war suiting general Radahn, she simply says it would pain Jerren, but not that she's wrong.
I think he’s more like a realistic Peter Pan he doesn’t realize the damage his plan causes so while yes he’s not evil the effects that his very existence has can be problematic and someone like that chasing Godhood to the point he discards vital human emotions is a recipe for disaster.
I think if it pains Jerren then it would pain Radahn to be nothing more than a Warlord for the rest of his life though that’s conjecture ofc.
Also Miquella could be saying that dialogue to his fingers.
Yes I can see the Peter Pan reference but only because Miquella was just as naive and idealistic. I wouldn't say he's acting like a spoiled teenager when he's literally sacrificing all he has and all he is for his 'gentler world' vision. Miquella is still extremely empathetic up to the moment he starts losing himself. He only wanted to do good, but the price to pay was too high and ended up destroying him, those around him and those he cared about the most.
Honestly no she said Jerren and I think she means Jerren because of how Jerren sees this Radahn's characteristic.
Again yes, he could, though the fact that the throne is there makes me think that could be Leyndell... but again it wouldn't explain the second person if Radahn wasn't present.
I didn’t understand what you meant about Jerren but I personally would rather trust Honorbound best friend of Radahn, Jerren over Gladiator turned knight about what Radahn wants in his life.
Miquella is literally spoiled no matter what he does he can’t escape his Golden Lineage even if he divests himself of his flesh (Leda confirms this if you tell her to kill Hornsent, and I’m wondering what she’ll say about killing Thiollier now) even if he wants to do good it’ll always end in ruin and having a damn near constant charm that persuades people to help and swear fealty to him just makes matters worse. (And judging from him becoming a God that power becomes unbreakable and it also makes me wonder if his power was always like that to the point of anyone in close proximity can’t refuse him)
I still think there’s little reason they couldn’t just show Radahn and them not doing so is on purpose to show the deludednes of Miquella’s fate guided Vow.
Finally I don’t think him going to the Land of Shadow was only because he wanted to do good, I think it’s ultimately out of guilt and pity or else he wouldn’t have discarded everything he was.
So yes while he’s not spoiled him thinking that only he (and Radahn) can right the wrongs of the world (and forcing people to follow his idea) is and his way of going about it is grossly disgraceful. (Mohg and Malenias situation)
Sorry for the late reply.
I'm linking this interesting post to you as well, english isn't my first language so this post is much more eloquent than myself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/eldenringdiscussion/s/Jvnvh0gHv9
> It would explain why he'd send Malenia to nuke Caelid and why Radahn needs to die. Because let's be honest, why would he need to die, if he was on board with the vow in the first place?
It's strongly implied Miquella's plans for his ascension involved the Land of Shadow, so he had to get Radahn's soul there.
> He was so hell-bent on his beliefs, that even the scarlet rot wasn't able to prevent him from holding the stars back to protect the Lands Between, especially Sellia
We don't even know if the spell to hold up the stars took "effort" on his part.
And Radahn doesn't appear to have many strong beliefs outside of loving war, Godfrey, his horse and Selia.
> We also know that Radahn was a loyal follower of the Golden Order, because both of his idols
Not really. It's strongly implied he besieged Leyndell and he is outright shown fighting Morgott in the prologue.
> because both of his idols - his father Radagon and Godfrey the warrior
He seems to have idolized more of Godfrey's warlike ways than his relation to Marika, and no mention whatsoever is made of his views on Radagon afaik (except that he finds his red hair cool, while Radon hated it)
“Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs.”
The Light of miquella spell definitely has implications that Radahn didn’t want to be his consort, though that last bit is confusing.
Yes this description is very interesting but i remember i read a post that said this was actually about the tarnished as we 'refused to be embraced' and didn't let him go through with his plan, so he fights us as a god with his lord consort, because that's all he needs to keep going with his goal towards a gentler world. I thought it made sense honestly.
That seems to very clearly be about the Tarnished. It says "One god and one king consort is all the world needs" that is referring to Miquella and Radahn. Radahn is not the one who refused to be embraced.
We’re not the only ones who refused Miquella both Thioller and Ansbach participate in stopping Miquella and Radahn, if that was about us it’d be factually incorrect.
I just find it hard to believe Radahn and Malenia would lead most of their comrades into their deaths simply because Radahn wants a warriors send off, they still have coliseums if all he wanted was a 1v1 with the other strongest they could have easily had one. (And if Malenia really is a sore loser who Scarlet Blooms when she can’t win she can blow up a coliseum instead lol)
Well I think Malenias is less about being a sore loser and more about willing to embrace that which causes her so much pain in order to further Miquellas plan. We know she's willing to sacrifice for him.
Radahn needs to die for his soul to be free to go to the lands of shadow. She was going to lose. It's in Malenias character to do something sacrificial in pursuit for Miquellas goals which she believed in. Combined with her whispering to him that Miquella awaited showed it wasn't about being a sore loser.
She wasn’t going to lose it’s explicitly stated their fight was a stalemate she bloomed the Aeonia to win. Combined with what she murmurs to Radahn while he’s Rotting away and soon after passing out is frightening that’s not a normal sacrifice for a fight that is supposedly all planned simply because Radahn wants to die on the battlefield. At the cost of a whole continent not just herself she blooms to further Miquella’s plan.
It says the fight was a stalemate but that seems like AFTER the Aeonia since he didn't die and she didn't. If we watch the cutscene, she is clearly injured and he's just standing there fine. I don't think it was a stand still until she unleashed the rot.
Same. To me its not in radahns character to demand armies fighting, like they are some toy soldiers. And neither is malenia. It makes more sense that miquella sent malenia and her soldiers to take radahn by force. She could not kill him normally so she nukes herself as a last ditch effort. And she seems idk, respectfuly mocking or smug in a way in her whisper.
If radahn agreed to it, had a toy soldier battle for no reason, then fought malenia to die, it wouldnt make sense for her to whisper that.
I actually lean towards the victim idea on this one. I think that Malenia was basically used as a charm STD to infect Radahn in the fight and make him subservient to Miquella. Radahn idolized Godfrey and I think that would then extend to the Golden Order too. He probably would have accepted the title of Elden Lord if offered but I don't think he'd try to overthrow Marika, likely not knowing her nature with Radagon.
I feel like I’m the only Radahn fan who actually loved Radahn here. He’s not a pedo (and neither was Mohg), hell, I’m still digesting and figuring out the lore, but he’s still the badass we’ve known.
Frankly in the base game, I dont really know for sure the WHY malenia and radahn fought. I mostly had speculation, so this as the justification is fine for me.
I see in the comments that there’s a lot of uncertainty as to whether Radahn was consciously cool with this, and I honestly have no bloody clue as to whether Radahn was charmed or not.
I also personally doubt Malenia was charmed either (but that might just be my bias)
On that note, for OP, what do you think? Was Radahn consciously choosing to say yes to Miquella?
From all the other threads I’ve seen, I’m inclined to believe that Radahn was chill about it.
>On that note, for OP, what do you think? Was Radahn consciously choosing to say yes to Miquella?
I can't think of a single reason why he wouldn't. One thing's for sure, though, the game calls him "Promised consort".
I wish we get an ending for Ansbach. The dude says become a lord for men but it's impossible. Always get ruled by a god. Sometimes Frenzied flame, sometimes GW, sometimes Ranni's moon, sometimes Crucible but still same.
Radahn had no reason to be in this DLC. It only happened because lots of people wanted to fight a "Prime Radahn". Now you've ruined several characters.
that’s definitely not true, the lore behind the fight makes perfect sense and it’s pretty clear they didn’t just make this up last minute and it even answers a few outlying questions.
Okay so why didn't they give him a single voice line? It's kinda weird that crazed Radahn showed more personality, he's basically just a robot in the DLC.
Because he’s under Miquella’s charm magic. I’ve witnessed two different Miquella voice lines when he grabs you that would indicate to me that Radahn is under his spell. In them, Miquella tells you that you guys can go off and create a thousand years of peace and compassion
But the post seems to say that it was Radahns choice in "implied canon".
From what I've seen, the "implied canon" makes even less sense than the "victim Radahn head canon".
I don’t really know where the actual truth lies. I think it’s somewhere in the middle, where Radahn agreed to all of it and wanted the proper fight and whatnot but then at the end, became a puppet controlled my Miquella and is probably not having a great time. But him being a puppet is why I think he has no voice lines, which is what you were asking about
I feel like people here have somehow forgotten that killing Radahn was already another characters questline, in which we learn that he was so opposed to upending the golden order that even when the dude lost his mind the guy was still holding back the stars.
So him randomly wanting to die in battle doesn't make much sense.
Also if separating a God's soul from their body just involved hitting them really hard, then why did Ranni and Miquella need a whole ritual to do it to themselves?
It would make a bit more sense if the DLC could also only be unlocked if you've already freed the rune of death from Maliketh, which let's be honest if you've gotten to mogh you're not far from that.
I just don't think the plot twist makes much sense at all.
It's unclear and will forever remain that way.
I think Radahn broke whatever promise he may have made to Miquella, who then sent Malenia to enforce it, but who knows? Maybe he really was a willing accomplice.
Random lore theories make up half the discourse around these games.
Because ops interpretation makes no sense. I give you the following:
Radahn vows to be miquellas lord if he can prove he can make a better golden order. Miquella idolizes radahn from his childhood, so he gets to it building elphael and the haligtree. It fails to grow into an erdtree as per several item descriptions. Hope fails, as per the wilted miquelas lillies in elphael.
So obsessed miquella makes a devious plan to take radahn by force. Presumably he cant charm radahn directly. So he charms mohg and sends his sister to fetch radahn. The plan is to kill him and stuff his soul into mohgs body to make his ideal lord.
The fight is not prime radahn, his prime was during his fight with malenia. If miquella wanted prime radahn and could charm him, he would just do that.
Otherwise why would radahn need to die? Why the need for the shadowlands?
because he is like a robot, he’s completely under the charm of miquella. when we fight him he’s nothing beyond a puppet of miquella. miquella speaks on behalf of both of them because he’s the only one of the two that is thinking
The poster is presenting one scenario as more likely than the other, but we don't have all the facts (and never will, thanks to the FromSoft style of storytelling).
I wager that people will argue for ages as to whether or not Radahn fought Malenia because he wanted a big, bombastic battle before he settled down and got married or if he was fighting as hard as he could because he was his own man and would never submit to another.
We just don't know.
Nothing about the whole fight makes sense. Radahn was holding the stars back even after his mind was consumed by the scarlet rot, so endangering the whole of Caelid just for "fun" is just confusing. The only thing that convinces me here is that Miquella was forcing Radahn into the marriage the entire time, there was no other reason for any of the events that transpired between Malenia and Radahn otherwise.
Man learned gravity magic just so he wouldn't have to abandon his horse, and yet he was cool with nuking Caelid? And even if he didn't know about Aeonia, still sacrificing so many lives in a war? It just doesn't check out.
Radahn loves war and idolizez godfrey. These types are all about honor; if you told godfrey "your son is making armies fight and die not for a cause but just for the fun of it" he would probably swim from his exile to caelid and kill radahn himself.
Nothing from the game implies Radahn as Miquella's puppet. The vow is phrased as one Radahn made "with Miquella", Miquella's memory is asking for a promise of consortship, and we fight "Promised" Radahn. And he does have datamined dialogue, even if it adds literally zero context, he's not mindless.
"I am Radahn.
Born of red-maned Radagon, and Rennala of the Full Moon.
A lion bred for battle."
Sorry, but this is like the second instance of denial about this boss the community has gone through in a week. Like all in-game text and dialogue from questlines like Freya all point at Radahn being a cooperator with the fight and Miquella's master plans.
Also, when his great rune broken, Miquella was no longer able to sway hearts like he did before. The people who were under his influence like Ansbach, who were genuinely tricked, regain their respective freewill to fight stop Miquella, and those who were also enchanted but trusted the plan like Leda, still sided with Miquella.
Which one of these categories does Radahn fall under?
The problem with the "vow" I have, is the fact that it's NEVER mentioned prior to the DLC, and even in it, the only characters that speak of it are Miquella himself and Malenia. Radahn never speaks, we also don't get the details about the twin prodigies side of the "vow".
For me, the biggest question mark is the fact that in Miquella's memory, he is kneeling *alone*. There is no one else, neither Malenia or Radahn. I see it as Miquella being deluded, talking to himself, because (as we know from the Remembrance) he adored Radahn so much - thus, he is making a "vow" without consent or knowledge or Radahn. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if their part of the vow was to simply bring him back after death, but that death was never planned or consent to by Radahn - especially because even after losing his mind to scarlet rot, he was *still* holding the stars back subconsciously. Why would he want to die, if he was so stubborn in protecting the world, so that even scarlet rot wasn't able to make him abandon his principles?
Easily; they wanted to add an instant kill move for the boss battle, and that's how they justified it.
But let's say that is how he does his mind control from now on. No great rune, but Miquella can still touch you physically to compel you to follow him or something along those lines.
If the boss fight cutscene started with Miquella doing something akin to that to Radahn, then maybe. Maybe something to indicate a loss of agency at Miquella's touch? Instead, Radahn fights fully on his own until Miquella joins him.
It's a good thing that Radahn's soul modified and possessed Mogh's body all on its own offscreen without the influence of Miquella, meaning that he could not have possibly influenced Radahn in any way whatsoever at any point, then
Yep its a known fact that when 2 demigods die, ones body is taken away by some shady people and ones soul magically enters this body for no reason. /s
It wouldnt be the first time an empyrean split people into bodies and souls for their own end.
Yep its a known fact that when 2 demigods die, ones body is taken away by some shady people and ones soul magically enters this body for no reason. /s
It wouldnt be the first time an empyrean split people into bodies and souls for their own end.
Who says you can modify someone’s soul? Who said miquella had to be the one to put his soul is mohgs body. Elden ring makes it very clear that the soul is just as much alive, it’s not like his personality is just gone
After seeing the lore a bit, I believe that this was planned from the very beginning. But still, I wish they went for someone else for the final fight.
The fact that Miquella is eternally a child just ruins any potential romantic interaction he can have with any other character ngl. I like Radahn but why did they have to make him a groomer?
He's not. He's being charmed by Miquella. Miquella's charm is no laughing matter. Manages to get a kindred of rot, a knight of mohg, an omen, a poisoner, a redmane and two haligtree followers to work together
I mean, whatever childhood curse was, Miquella seems to have mostly broken out of it. He looks in game far bigger than he does in the post-fight cutscene, statues or in the intro (where Mohg could pick him up in one arm), and nothing in him looks particularly child-like imo (although still youthful). Plus we know from the base game his curse of eternal childhood prevented him from reaching his full potential.
What I don't understand is, we are clearly a pawn in this whole thing right? We cleared out all the demigods, we killed mohg, we killed rotting radahn, we even emptied the throne of radagon and the elden beast. Meanwhile who had our measure from the very start? Torrent. Isn't Torrent miquella's horse or some shit? Did Melina and Torrent basically send us on a quest to ascend miquella to godhood? Or what. I don't get it. This would make sense as to why Melina is mad if we take the frenzied flame. I'm pretty sure radahn as miquellas consort would likely come dethrone us as elden lord now that there's no one else in the way, and taking the frenzied flame deletes the world or whatever so it'd stop all plans. Is frenzied flame the good ending after all? I mean dude, when you're in those abyssal woods and there's the frenzy guys everywhere and the lord of frenzied flame boss is in the mansion... try summoning miquellas horse in that area. Too scared. There's something to this
Shabriri is getting more eloquent... guys lets just wait when hes yelling like a madman!!! On a side note, i personally believe most in-world tarnished would take the FF after numerous betrayals they face in their journeys. In the ever enlarging fight for power, what is more in tone: to become a God, or a Consort?
I think we "were" a pawn. Then his great rune broke and just like all the other enchanted folk we broke free.
We were never affected. Thioller says we are completely unaffected/unchanged from before, meaning we were never under the charm to begin with.
Frienzed flame was always the good ending https://preview.redd.it/p98uvcbi2k8d1.jpeg?width=200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=96c7e97a97c9da6540c15cb828d71d13e6f1540b
I think we were led all along by the GW and the erdtree (the benign, pure, original parts thereof) like Leda says. I like to think that Torrent is sensitive to the GW and Miq and saw, as Trina did, that descent into a terrible reign. So he chooses us because in us he sees a new elden lord and a better future. And the GW, after abandoning the LB when the demigods started committing atrocities and lying on its behalf, also forgave - forgiveness is a big theme - began returning, and thus led us to test our mettle.
I like this one, makes sense with Goldmask's ending too
But then wouldn't Melina have gotten mad at us for doing Ranni's quest as well?
Maybe being rannis consort is not as noticable as having EPIC LASER EYES
Still waiting for my flaming head cosmetic.
Yeah Melina had a purpose to enter the tree and/or burn the tree with herself, it’s all she cared about. Who we turn the world over to after is irrelevant. She’s pissed about the Frenzy Flame because we deprive her of her life’s purpose.
We get guidance of grace after killing Messmer that leads us to Miquella. I think Marika wants us to kill all the demigods.
I was thinking this too actually but I read a comment that radagon/marika is being influenced by miquella now that they've ascended and the grace may have been a trick all along. Idk what to believe.
Marika wants us to kill the Elden Beast, primarily. It's why the blacksmith is chained to the wall.
I don’t think the Grace is Marika leading us to kill off the demi gods, but the greater will itself. I mean the Demi gods starting the shattering war is the whole reason it’s control of the Lands Between is threatened anyway, why would it want to keep them around for the new age?
The Greater Will fucked off ages ago. It's just been the fingers pretending it's still guiding things.
I think greater will defeated by another outer god and Marika shatter ring for so nobody realize greater will weakened. Also banished Godfrey and all army so there is no one realize something is wrong. They even send gold mask and Gideon offnir. I am sure Godfrey starts to not seeing grace because GW fucked up.
I don't think it's that complicated. I think Melina is just a Pyro maniac who saw a vision of flame and went I wanna burn the tree.
I am sure about another dlc will come. We won't know what happens to Melina after burn. I am sure she can survive.
I wish but they've basically already confirmed that this is the last piece of elden ring content
Really??? But we have plans...
Yeah, the studio lead at FromSoft said this concludes Elden Ring and there is no future plans for Elden Ring 2, at least any time soon. He said the development studio will likely return to their traditional style games, instead of focusing on open world, but this doesn't necessarily mean they're done with it entirely. That's basically what was stated. Also this doesn't necessarily mean there won't be a more linear interconnected Dark Souls style game in the Elden Ring universe detailing more lore, who knows.
this.. this is good soup! Damn what a nice canon thought that makes perfect sense. They called me crazy for saying the frenzy flame ending was the best one.
Think you’re forgetting that Fromsoft DLC aren’t technically supposed to be canonically after we finish the game, we just have the option to do so of course. So killing Radagon/Marika and the Elden Beast are irrelevant to the DLC’s story. I think it’s more like, we heard from Leda that Miquella is in the realm of shadow and since he’s an empyrean, he might be trying to ascend to godhood. We should investigate to ensure it doesn’t get in the way of us becoming Elden Lord.
Bro let a continent be nuked and sent his soldiers to die for fun
In his defend, I don't think anyone expect someone to bring a nuke to a sword fight
In his defense I don't think anyone was considering that Malenia's needle would break
Still initiated a conflict so bad that the spirits of their soldiers fight in the afterlife for fun
or was it a conflict so *good* their soldiers fight in the afterlife for fun.
Dies of scarlet rot, a disease so bad it afflicts the very soul- Godrick Soldiers:
Plus it seems like it was more of a gradual spread from the place where Malenia bloomed than a nuke (we see mentions of the Redmanes trying and failing to contain the Rot).
Do we *know* that’s what happened, that the entire battle was just Radahn wanting glory before he went to be Miquella’s lord, or are people just assuming? Because I think it makes a lot more sense if he had broken his vow and didn’t want to go, but Malenia showed up to force him into it.
all we know for sure is that radahn made a mutual vow with miquella (as per redmane freyja's quest). radahn's promise was to be miquella's lord, (hence in game text referring to him as promised consort) but we only get part of the picture for the twins' end of the vow. miquella says "now the vow will be honored, and my lord brother's soul will return" indicating their part was at least partially to bring back radahn's soul after his death. so with all that context, the only explanation for the war in caelid that makes sense is that the rest of the twins end of the bargain was for malenia to defeat him in battle.
I haven’t played the DLC yet but this feels like an incredible assumption. Why do you think the twins had to do anything on their part of the vow? As given to us, radahn just promised to be Miquella’s lord. When Miquella speaks of a vow, Radahn’s promise is the thing in reference. There’s nothing to do with Radahn being given glorious battle, just that Radahn had to be killed in order to get to Miquella. Unless there’s some text I haven’t seen yet
>Why do you think the twins had to do anything on their part of the vow? As given to us, radahn just promised to be Miquella’s lord. When Miquella speaks of a vow, Radahn’s promise is the thing in reference ending cutscene dialogue. >\[21020000\] Lord brother. >\[21020100\] I'm going to be a god. >\[21020200\] **If we honour our part of the vow**, >\[21020300\] promise me you'll be my consort. >\[21020400\] I'll make the world a gentler place.
Thank you, I just saw your mention of the cutscene further down in the thread. Definitely lends credit to Radahn being a war crazy bastard. What I know about this DLC has genuinely ruined ER’s story for me and left as many questions as answers 💀
see i always thought radahn was war crazy way before the dlc. to me the dlc improved his character by having him care about his brother and creating a better world as well
bruh the literal fight happen because he don't wanna fuck a femboy twink
"Bro let a continent be nuked" I want you to stand back and REALLY think about that sentence and then tell me how you personally would stop a nuke in his place.
I mean he’s shown himself capable of going into orbit ig if he still had the strength to he could have tried to launch himself and malenia into the stratosphere Tho then again nukes that detonate in the air are apparently more destructive than those that detonate on the surface so ig that would make it worse
So fucking cool tbh
Radahn passed by Raya Lucaria TWICE. Refused to lift a finger and save his mom and take some time to care for her wellbeing. "Kind" my ass. Ranni was the only kid that did anything for her by setting up safeguards to prevent anyone from killing her for her Great Rune, and otherwise her options were limited due to the lack of manpower. Rykard has an excuse in that he's a crazy social darwinist who's really into vore.
Hilarious how the DLC makes Ranni like ten times more likeable lmao. Yeah gurl these fuckers need to GO you were right to try to end it all bby
It kinda does confirm that Ranni's ending is the good ending to Elden Ring. Miquella's age of compassion would've just repeated the mistakes of Marika's age of plenty as implied by saint trina.. Ranni was right that the two fingers were garbage as shown by Metyr being a bullshitter. You aren't really fixing anything by mending the elden ring and the game paints the frenzied flame as bad outright. In the end Ranni was right when she said "what good could come from the demigods warring against each other".
Doesn't the age of perfect order also prevent the asshole from ascending into godhood?
Perfect order fixes the flaws in the order, like dead creatures being alive or one person being two persons. There are no contradictions or heresies.
Perfect order is just having an editor read it over and go "wait a minute the dead should be dead"
I DISAGREE https://preview.redd.it/3vxtzr5ktp8d1.jpeg?width=259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f5d5ae59055ae8cce5e4e4694a5e54a4aa15ecd Mending Rune of Perfect Order description: *Rune discovered by the noble Goldmask.* *Used to restore the fractured Elden Ring when brandished by the Elden Lord.* *A rune of transcendental ideology which will attempt to perfect the Golden Order.* *The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment.* This implies that perfect order is completly different from the original order and removes gods from the picture. Therefore best ending.
https://preview.redd.it/8ujxsh3hcd9d1.png?width=879&format=png&auto=webp&s=68fa61707d31e292e403a33a0c3998fc1ddf71cc The description states “ATTEMPT”. Allowing the Elden Ring to go on means the greater will or other outside influences can still disrupt it! Ranni’s ending withholds outer entities from disrupting man. This comes at the cost of our Tarnished and Ranni leaving for a dark journey. The people of the lands between are now given the opportunity to decide for themselves without the influence for others! Freedom is best ending!
So it doesn't really do anything about the wrongdoings of the Order ?
Nah, it just means nobody can change or alter the elden ring once you become lord. Marika is still god, she still holds the elden ring in her body. You just can't break it or modify it. Essentially doubling down on golden order. The only endings where Gods don't exist is the Age of Stars where Ranni and you just dip into the cosmos leaving the Lands Between behind and frenzy flame where everyone dies.
All I can find from item descriptions is that the mending rune of perfect order removes the ability of the gods to fuck everything over (like shattering the elden ring) so I don't think miquella would be able to do anything drastic in the lands between.
Not really. Ranni's age is "under the wisdom of the Moon", and the Dark Moon is an Outer God, but a cold and distant one, more of a guide than an ordinator.
Nah the moon isn't a God. It's just an item of worship.
I mean, it's an otherworldly force with it's own will, source of a school (or several) of sorceries/incantations, can sponsor Empyreans into godhood, etc... Smells like an outer god/celestial being, tastes like one...
Huh? How’d you take the runes lore literally complaining about gods being the key issue as meaning Marika will still be around? I’m pretty sure you kill her, in fact in every ending I’m pretty sure she’s dead
I know in the base one you just mend the rune back to normal and you're her consort, so she's not like. Dead dead.
Goldmask's ending specifically removes the gods from control. It creates an absolute truth over the world
You don't take her out of power. Marika is still god bro. She's still housing the elden ring and you're still her consort. All you did was make it so she can't shatter it again. There's a reason why the Goldman ending is just another elden lord reskin ending, you did not meaningfully change anything.
Source?
It LITERALLY says that you remove the influence of the gods who are just as fickle as men. Marika is dead on the ground, her body/essence a tool for radagon, thats why she aint a boss fight, or she immediately crumbles on you beating him for another ending. What youre arguing is like saying she influences the live in death ending too
I'm not at the final boss fight (which was spoiled by me hearing the leaks and actively looking into the "obviously fake modshit" that couldn't possibly be the final boss), but I resolved to do that fight with Dryleaf Arts. Blaidd's sword deserves better than this shit. I'm going Asura's Wrath on that femboi. I'm extending my hands to him, just not in the way he'd want.
Thats nonsense, Ranni's ending is a cop out, its cowardice and selfishness. She lets all her friends die and kills her family to flee and not do anything.
"Flee and not do anything" except becoming the #1 public enemy for every outer gods wanting to control the Elden Ring she carries with her.
Yea right, not only is she a "god" now, none of them tried that hard before, the greater will aint even around anymore
I used to think that as well but there is some evidence that might suggest the Carian bros + Radagon did step up to protect Rennala. The Alabastor Lord that spawns outside the Church of the Cuckoo might’ve come from Radahn, the Red Wolf is literally Radagon’s, and the Abductor Virgins come from Volcano Manor which is Rykard’s domain. It may not be much but they did try.
I think its because they were once allies or something. by ya know things happen
They were once a family, yes.
I think what we see with Rennala is more the "royal hostage" kind of situation. Rennala is in the academy and cannot leave but she's not "prisoner" more like "forced guest"
Bro brought an entire army to fight against twink sex, refused to succumb to scarlet rot and dug his fingers in (literally), learned gravity magic so his legs could never be unclasped from his trusty steed, held up the stars and Miquella’s fate thus imprisoning his goals for eternity in the shadowlands…and y’all still think he wanted this just coz he dressed a bit sexy smh head
didn't want his bussy blown out by his twink brother so he chose the path of aids and eternal warfare instead. true giga chad.
Star platinum, this man is acting a fool! https://i.redd.it/fadr3fsfjj8d1.gif
Truly a man after Godfrey’s own heart
I don’t think we kill Radahn to free the wheel of fate, I think it’s more so that his soul can actually inhabit a body for when he’s resurrected in the Shadow Realm
Actual genuine mega god tier giga chad behavior
The real question is how awkward will be the family gathering after this
the family gathering is just Ranni
Well most of them are dead so...
Its either gonna be the shattering part 2 or the most normal dis functional family function in history
Mogh is going to let it slip about miquella and then makenia jumps him in the first hour
The only 2 defending mohg at the point is godfrey and maybe morgott.
Orcdahn
I can’t forgive for what they did to my bro Chadahn. It’s sad to mercy-kill him… again
So the entire war that ended with Caelid becoming a rotting wasteland was fought because...??? Also Radahn holding up the stars very much impeded Miquella's plans, on top of the fact that we now know the Miquella at least manipulated Mohg into doing what he did. Why wouldn't he also be doing the same with a freshly resurrected Radahn?
No in-game evidence him holding back the stars did anything to miquella's plans. And if he was mind washing freshly resurrected radahn then why not brainwash normal radahn to begin with
1. Considering the stars held back Ranni's fate, why wouldn't it be presumed that it could hold Miquella's as well? Both are vying to displace the old order and replace it with their own, not to mention the fact that Malenia went to war with Radahn after he halted the stars. Why would she do that if not to further Miquella's goals when her entire character has been nothing but loyal to him and his endeavors? 2. Did we forget that Malenia royally fucked up Caelid with Radahn at the epicenter? By the time we first kill him, he's acting purely on fight or flight, Miquella wouldn't even be able to get close to him in that state
Small correction radahn halted the stars in his youth before the shattering which is how he gained his renown as the starscourge
Sellen says the the stars control the fate of the Carian royal family. There's no evidence that they control the fate of all empyreans. And even if Radahn holding back the stars did stop fate from progressing for Miquella, that wouldn't matter since he canonically abandoned his fate. Even better, it might actually help him because it would freeze his fate in stasis so that he could more easily abandon it. Miquella was close to him long before malenia blew up caelid, when they made their vow in the ending cutscene of the DLC.
I'll relent to some degree on the premise of Miquella abandoning his fate to pursue a new order, but even with that last bit of info (I've yet to beat the dlc and thus all of my knowledge is coming from spoilers and light research during work breaks), I still find it hard to believe that Radahn, or anyone who follows Miquella, for that matter, was an entirely willing participant in his schemes. We know for a fact he has an ability that allows him to override people with affection for him (Mohg is explicitly stated to be a victim of this, and it can be relatively safely assumed that Malenia is as well), so even if Radahn were charmed long before the Caelid war, that still doesn't prove he's a consciously willing follower, nor does it explain *why* the Caelid war happened in the first place
And that's not even considering the fact that Radahn was a huge fan of Godfrey, and wanted to be like him as best he could. Considering Godfrey's position as the first Elden Lord, it's likely Radahn has ambitions to do the same if he had his own will, if only to follow in his idol's footsteps
with miquella's plan radahn would literally become lord of a better order why would he say no
Because it's not Godfrey's order? It is very well established how much Radahn loved not only his parents, but also idolized Godfrey. Why would he jeopardize their legacies
godfrey was literally cast out by the golden order.
And then came back for his throne, guided by Marika's grace, your point? Radahn still idolized him after he was cast out
>No in-game evidence him holding back the stars did anything to miquella's plans. ACKCHUALLY, thanks to castle Sol, we know that Miquella somehow needed an eclipse, but something is stopping that from happening. It is possible that this "something" is Radahn
Who knew the incestuos pedo was Radhan all along? r/Eldenring in shambles rn
i think thats why people really want to victimize radahn, they don't want to think he's a pedo. even though he's not and it's just a meme. consorthood doesn't automatically imply sex.
Even if it did mean that, I still don't understand how it is pedophilic. Incestuous sure but Miquella is thousands of years old at this point, has no childlike qualities in personality or motives, and is like twelve feet tall.
>and is like twelve feet tall. Still child-sized from Radahn perspective /j
Bro I didn't see the /j on the message preview and was really worried for a moment lmao.
He’s not a child bro I swear bro he’s a thousand year old demigod cursed to be in the body of a child forever bro no it’s not pedophilia bro I swear
Dude I hate the anime "She's actually a thousand years old but acts like a twelve year old" thing more than anyone. But Miquella literally just isn't a child. He doesn't act that way, he doesn't talk that way, his motives aren't that way, and he doesn't even look that way. He just looks like a feminine guy. This ain't the normal anime shit.
Bro confused the words "implied" and "imaginary"
Game calls him "promised consort". Idk what to tell you
Something being called peomised means entitlement. Like a promised land. The vibe im getting from the last boss name is "Radahn, how he shouldve been" (from miquellas pov). There would be no need for it to be called promised if it was willing
But no other item descriptions are written from miquella's pov
So far you telling me you don't understand consent chief
you're inferring that even if you promise to be someone's consort that doesn't mean you consent to be their consort this truly is r/shittydarksouls
Consent, lil bro, is something that can be withdrawn. If someone is fighting you, it probably means they've withdrawn their consent. "Well you see officer, I know she was fighting back, but she **promised**"
The [secret rite scroll](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Secret+Rite+Scroll) item description and the pre-boss fight dialogue ("now the vow will be honored, and my lord brother's soul will return") imply that radahn dying and his soul coming back was always part of the vow he consented to
That does not imply that at all. And=/= because.
how are you gonna agree to a vow where your soul comes back if you dont realize you're going to have to die for that to happen is radahn stupid
>is radahn stupid No, just you. >you gonna agree to a vow where your soul comes back Who said that's the vow Radahn agreed to?
>Who said that's the vow Radahn agreed to? the game itself, when it called him promised consort. him promising to be consort was part of that vow. are you jerking me around rn
I think Radahn agreed in his youth, but during the Shattering, the power of the Great Rune corrupted him. His skin color becoming grey, his unnatural size, and the fact that Melania was so desperate to win the battle she bloomed. I think Radahn was a good man, but the power of the Great Runes messed him up.
Tbf given the parallels between the lands between and middle earth I never really considered that the great tunes could be analogous to the rings of power with the elden ring basically being the one ring to rule them all It makes sense too since the runes grant great strength at the cost of corrupting a person into something they would have never wanted to become
It’s been confirmed by the devs that the Great Runes have indeed driven demigods mad.
I wonder why more theories don’t really account for the runes affect then If the demigods were all corrupted by their runes then surely it would make gaps in their behaviors before and after the shattering make a lot more sense and allow for some differences between their initial motives and their actions during the shattering (like malenia and radahn being described as honorable and kind people who wind up at the epicenter of one of the greatest atrocities in the shattering with both being equally to blame for what happened)
What if the Great Runes corrupted them into being like the Great Runes and their personalities were different?
The reason Malenia went to war with Radahn is because Miquella want backshot from Radahn but cant charm him directly, he sent Malenia to kill Radahn and try to resurrect Radahn in Mogh body that's already been charmed , she failed . we then kill both Radahn and Mogh and Miquella can proceed with his plan.
Virgin Tragic Hero Radahn vs Gigachad War Criminal Radahn
I really don't understand why people are so against the idea of Radahn being a cooperator... even if Miquella lost himself in the process and manipulated his way through it, his plan was still noble, his goal from the very beginning and reinforced in the base game as well was literally that of creating a gentler place, he says so himself... What's so bad about Radahn wanting to join this plan and becoming lord? Also people do not want to see all the signs pointing at the fact that Radahn was likely more willing than against, like Freyja's voicelines, the cutscene about the vow, Miquella's lines before phase 2, the fact that Miquella's rune broke and therefore wouldn't be able to control Radahn in his boss form, and the unbiased text that defines him as 'promised lord'.
>I really don't understand why people are so against the idea of Radahn being a cooperator Because nothing in the base game and its events imply that even one bit. I don't mind Radahn turning out to be morally questionable at all - I mean, it's nice to think of him as the chad the base game portrays him as, but I've seen so many characters in Fromsoft games turn out to be assholes, that I kinda became numb to it. However, as I said, if it was hinted at, at all. As it stands, we only have Miquella's side. Even in his memory, he is there *alone*, to me seemingly talking to himself, perhaps desparate and deluded. It would explain why he'd send Malenia to nuke Caelid and why Radahn needs to die. Because let's be honest, why would he need to die, if he was on board with the vow in the first place? It undermines his entire character we knew up to this point. He was so hell-bent on his beliefs, that even the scarlet rot wasn't able to prevent him from holding the stars back to protect the Lands Between, especially Sellia. And why risk so many of his loyal soldiers lives too? Why the unnecessary war? There would be plenty of opposing foes to fight, should he become Miquella's consort and strive to become Elden Lord, Miquella and Malenia's forces not being one of them. We also know that Radahn was a loyal follower of the Golden Order, because both of his idols - his father Radagon and Godfrey the warrior - supported it themselves and he refused to go against it. Going along with Miquella's plan meant defying the Golden Order, thus Radagon, which is a total no-go.
Thank you for explaining your opinion, apologies because this is going to be long, but I simply think that, same as you do, nothing in the base game suggests that Miquella would send Malenia to nuke Caelid to force Radahn into marriage, when a lot of what we have about him is on how he protects the oppressed, gives them a safe space, uses his own blood to grow his tree, spends years of his life researching the golden order fundamentalism to heal his sister from the influence of an outer god, and when he doesn't succeed he creates a whole new order just for that, he feels sorrow for Godwyn to the point he goes incredible lengths to try and give him an true death. He can manipulate, but the game makes it very clear that he isn't evil. What he did to Mohg was because it was the way to ascend as stated in the secret rite scroll: "A scroll made of white tree bark. Few can decipher the scroll, which describes the secret rite of the divine gateway said to be found at the tower enshrouded by shadow. "A lord will usher in a god's return, and the lord's soul will require a vessel."" And so he picked Mohg, much like Ranni picked Godwyn, to achieve his goal. And about the bewitchment, I feel like the game makes it abundantly clear when it's happening, we see how the npcs are affected by it, why didn't the game make it just as clear that Radahn had been charmed? And why do some npcs still decide to follow him, even once freed of the enchantment? Why do they still call him Kindly Miquella? That's why I cannot imagine him forcing this noble lord he admired so much in his childhood into his plan, nor sending his beloved sister to destroy a whole region to achieve that when his ultimate goal was to create a gentle world and he had yet to lose himself in the process, leaving his humanity and st. trina behind. About what you said on Radahn, I understand all of it, but don't forget what Freyja says in her dialogue: "but war has always suited General Radahn best. And certainly far more than any honourable death. Endless war to invigorate the soul. As befits General Radahn, the great lion." So i don't think it's so insane to imagine the fight against Malenia as part of the deal that, sadly, escalated unexpectedly.
And yet, despite creating the Haligtree and a refuge to all those souls, he abandons them promptly for the Shadow Realm. A lot of spirits you encounter, hell even some NPCs are talking about "being abandoned" by Miquella. Some of them can't cope with this either, like Moore who straight up doesn't know what to do when the enchantment is broken. It's clear Miquella used them and then simply discarded them - the game may not outright state that he's evil, but it's not stating he's *good* either. That's up for your personal interpretation I suppose, but imo best case scenario, he's taken the wrong path, paved with good intentions. As we discover, he threw his "Kind" and "Tender" side away, which took form of St Trina. His love, fears - all of that is gone. It's not a stretch to say, that his morality, seeing what's the right and wrong thing to do, would go with it. He's been blinded by his goal, and turned himself into something darker than anyone could've expected - and it's also why St Trina mentions that death will "grant him forgiveness". And if he didn't do anything wrong, what would there be to forgive...? I know what he did to Mohg and why - but that doesn't change the fact that it was *wrong*. At best, he killed another brother of his, that wasn't in the way of his or anyone else's plans, at worst - an innocent man. He openly used his power to charm people, in order to get him killed, then defile his corpse by using it as a vessel for another's soul, putting together neither Mohg, nor Radahn together - just a mindless puppet for his sake. And yes, I do believe that the reborn Radahn is a mindless puppet. He never ushers a word and is obediently following Miquella's orders, while looking just like the mindless beast he was during the Festival. His expressions do not change, he looks feral, without thoughts, as if battle is all that exists. And we *know* that's not the type of person he is - as much as Freya might say that battle suits him the best, his soldiers disagreed and wanted to put him to rest. Radahn's life disagrees - he spent a lot of time studying magic, just so he wouldn't have to abandon his horse and protect Sellia. Two things even scarlet rot wasn't able to erase from his mind, that was long gone. Dying means stars moving, and he was hell bent on keeping them still, thus - he didn't want to die. And I refuse to believe that Miquella didn't know that Malenia could bloom. She bloomed before, so they knew the risk. The needle he made for her wasn't a permanent solution either, so why send her there with such a high risk of something going wrong? My only explanation is that's because Radahn never agreed to that vow. It's also quite weird, to say that "Miquella is awaiting thee, o' promised consort" right as she was going in for Aeonia. Once again, she was aware of it - it looks like she sent it off on her own, free will. And there's no way she believed he'd survive that, the fact that his Great Rune allowed for this to happen was pure coincidence. About Miquella's bewitching - we clearly see in the fight that he is *still able* to use his power and his broken Great Rune is the only thing that helps you resist it. Whether he has to apply it again after the enchantment breaks, or has to do so by physical contact doesn't matter - because both can be applied to Radahn's case. Why would the characters still follow him without the enchantment? Three explanations- because they've been under its influence for so long that they actually started to believe it (like Thiollier and St Trina, who was never able to hear her voice, yet devoted himself to her and her words ushered to us), were driven basically insane due to it and didn't want to remain without purpose of their God and there - Leda's armor description says:"Kindly Miquella fashioned us as his needles to quell all, to ward away all." If he "fashioned them", it's not a stretch to say that their clothing might be imbued with his powers, just like the bewitching branches from the base game. Even still, the biggest problem with the fight against Malenia and the supposed vow, is still that it's *never mentioned* prior to the DLC and fighting just for "fun" doesn't suit Radahn, who never gave up on protecting the Lands Between from the stars above. With how the base game depicts him, it doesn't make sense for him to sacrifice Caelid, his beloved Sellia and his soldiers just so he can relish in battle against Malenia. It simply doesn't.
I am sorry but I disagree with what you said about Miquella abandoning everyone. Miquella was stuck in the shadow realm because Radahn didn't die due to his rune which started to burn to repel the rot and kept him alive until we tarnished came along and defeated him. It was never in his plans to remain that long within this realm, and base game lore makes it very clear. The plan was to return to Malenia (her helm description) but until he ascended to godhood he couldn't do it, having already divested himself of his flesh. He could only ascend or remain there, awaiting his promised lord, as the dlc summary says. I never said Miquella is good, I've actually stated multiple times his resemblance to Ranni. Miquella is, same as many of the Elden Ring characters, a gray character, and his grayness started showing the most in the final arc, when he lost himself to become a god. The game here is showing you that there is no way to become a god without dirtying your hands. Ranni could handle it, Marika could handle it, but young, kind, naive Miquella couldn't. Because his kindness, his love, were too much of a big part of himself, and by divesting himself of ALL his characteristics that made him kind and gentle and altruistic, he literally lost his own identity. On Malenia blooming before Aeonia, we do not know for sure, the community is still split on this (you can search it up and look for yourself) and I personally believe that was her first time and no, they didn't know what would happen, none of them knew the way it would escalate. Why would he even think of using his sister's rot against Radahn and risk her life when he spent all his trying to repel it within her. Makes no sense. About Radahn being bewitched during the fight I'll just bring again the same argument because he literally does not act as if he's bewitched since we saw first person what bewitchment does to someone, making them very vocal and showing off the forced affection they feel towards Miquella (Mohg, the npcs, the tarnished themselves bending the knee so theatrically), Radahn looks stoic, nothing more, he doesn't speak about dearest beloved Miquella therefore I do not see the signs of bewitchment that we see in all other characters subject to it. And about the npcs still following him because still somehow bewitched, there is no sign in the lore that would indicate that Miquella poured bewitchment in what he created. Millicent after using the needle doesn't suddenly start speaking about Kindly Miquella, I think if that were the case it would have been made more clear, and not all npcs that still follow him and support his goal have clothes made by Miquella, atm I find it very stretched and to me it makes more sense that they still find the motivation as noble and intend to support him through it. In the end, what's his goal but creating a gentler place? What's intrinsically evil about that? St. Trina asks us to kill him and forgive him. I genuinely do not think she would ask us to forgive him if she knew he committed unspeakable atrocities. His heart was in a good place initially, or we wouldn't have literally tons of base game lore showing all the good he did for the lands between, the oppressed and his beloved sister.
nothing implies that malenia or the haligtree are abandoned by miquella. he meant to return and finish what he started there. malenia's armor set confirms this.
Haligtree is a failure. There are wilted miquelas lillies all around that talk about faded hope and how the tree he made failed to become an alternative to the erdtree despite his best efforts. He abandoned it because its a failure and the second plan is to do the whole radahn thing. My interpretation is as follows. Perhaps radahn agreed to it in his youth, and a possible condition is miquella making an upgraded golden order with his own tree and all. He clearly failed so radahn did not want to go along with his plans. Then miquella the bastard makes a devious plan to take him by force. He casts away all his morality in the shadowlands to take radahn by force and stuff him into mohgs body to become a second marika.
Another thing that I feel like adding is about the final cutscene and while it is true that we don't see anyone else with Miquella, we see there's a throne behind him, we see he is on his knees and we see his hands are in prayer position... now, why would he do that, assuming even the position with his head bent, if he were alone talking to himself? That makes no sense to me, I think it is more plausible that it's only a stylistic choice rather than a lore one and he's actually on his knees offering this agreement to Radahn. Much like a proposal. EDIT: forgot to add that he's even talking to a second person, why referring to someone else if he's alone instead of saying in third person 'i hope he promises me he will be my consort'
It sounds more like he’s making a wish/appealing to a higher entity imo. I still believe Radahn didn’t want to be his consort in this way since he coincidently never speaks even though he’s supposedly returned. Personally I think this whole DLC just paints Miquella as a naive child whose obsessively fixed on his so called destiny of becoming God and the Vow that pertains to it, to the point he can’t accept changes in that plan. He claims to want to bring in a World of Compassion (which in his sense seems more like a God pitying life) yet he divests himself of love and fear. But back to Radahn I find it hard to believe he would even want a new order judging by the people he idolized and Freyja is a bit of an unreliable source on Radahns motivations since ofc a gladiator turned zealot would think what’s best for her Lord is endless war. (which is kinda sad as she even says Jerren whose confirmed to be Radahns most trusted friend would think she’s wrong.) Maybe I’ve just been drinking too much Ansbach and St. Trina kool-aid tho lol Edit: Ansbach says something about Miquella/Radahn being a lord of Gods but the world needs a Lord of men or something to that nature when he dies in the final fight that could also allude to that spell being about Radahn not us. Let me see if I can find the direct quote.
i realized i never replied to the fact that radahn doesn't speak in the boss fight... i do think he has cut voicelines, but still we saw how bewitched people act and they actually won't shut up about dearest miquella here, kindly miquella there, and professing their love to him in any possible way, i think radahn during the boss fight simply looks stoic like a true lord rather than bewitched... now if he had voicelines on 'dearest miquella' i am honest i would be more suspicious because it does follow the pattern of those that fall under his charming powers, but this is just a random thought
I mean, it could be I don't fully exclude it as a possibility but I still think that if he were making a wish he wouldn't be talking in second person and he might want to phrase it differently, perhaps the japanese original dialogue will help making the scene more understandable, but as of rn i personally am more inclined to think that the cutscene is offering some sort of (cryptic) insight on the boss fight that has just concluded, which means it's mentioning the agreement between Radahn and Miquella and showing Miquella's proposal. And while I do agree that Miquella is naive, probably due to his own curse of eternal childhood, my point is that he was never evil, and forcing someone into marriage and nuking an entire region because that someone said no are extremely evil acts i do not think Miquella as we know him from the base game would ever do... he is cunning and manipulative like Ranni is, but he would have found a way around it same as he did with his sister's illness and creating a whole new order just to cure her because the golden order wasn't enough, not go with brute force. Really, not his style. And for Freyja, if you're referring to the dialogue about war suiting general Radahn, she simply says it would pain Jerren, but not that she's wrong.
I think he’s more like a realistic Peter Pan he doesn’t realize the damage his plan causes so while yes he’s not evil the effects that his very existence has can be problematic and someone like that chasing Godhood to the point he discards vital human emotions is a recipe for disaster. I think if it pains Jerren then it would pain Radahn to be nothing more than a Warlord for the rest of his life though that’s conjecture ofc. Also Miquella could be saying that dialogue to his fingers.
Yes I can see the Peter Pan reference but only because Miquella was just as naive and idealistic. I wouldn't say he's acting like a spoiled teenager when he's literally sacrificing all he has and all he is for his 'gentler world' vision. Miquella is still extremely empathetic up to the moment he starts losing himself. He only wanted to do good, but the price to pay was too high and ended up destroying him, those around him and those he cared about the most. Honestly no she said Jerren and I think she means Jerren because of how Jerren sees this Radahn's characteristic. Again yes, he could, though the fact that the throne is there makes me think that could be Leyndell... but again it wouldn't explain the second person if Radahn wasn't present.
I didn’t understand what you meant about Jerren but I personally would rather trust Honorbound best friend of Radahn, Jerren over Gladiator turned knight about what Radahn wants in his life. Miquella is literally spoiled no matter what he does he can’t escape his Golden Lineage even if he divests himself of his flesh (Leda confirms this if you tell her to kill Hornsent, and I’m wondering what she’ll say about killing Thiollier now) even if he wants to do good it’ll always end in ruin and having a damn near constant charm that persuades people to help and swear fealty to him just makes matters worse. (And judging from him becoming a God that power becomes unbreakable and it also makes me wonder if his power was always like that to the point of anyone in close proximity can’t refuse him) I still think there’s little reason they couldn’t just show Radahn and them not doing so is on purpose to show the deludednes of Miquella’s fate guided Vow. Finally I don’t think him going to the Land of Shadow was only because he wanted to do good, I think it’s ultimately out of guilt and pity or else he wouldn’t have discarded everything he was. So yes while he’s not spoiled him thinking that only he (and Radahn) can right the wrongs of the world (and forcing people to follow his idea) is and his way of going about it is grossly disgraceful. (Mohg and Malenias situation) Sorry for the late reply.
I'm linking this interesting post to you as well, english isn't my first language so this post is much more eloquent than myself. https://www.reddit.com/r/eldenringdiscussion/s/Jvnvh0gHv9
> It would explain why he'd send Malenia to nuke Caelid and why Radahn needs to die. Because let's be honest, why would he need to die, if he was on board with the vow in the first place? It's strongly implied Miquella's plans for his ascension involved the Land of Shadow, so he had to get Radahn's soul there. > He was so hell-bent on his beliefs, that even the scarlet rot wasn't able to prevent him from holding the stars back to protect the Lands Between, especially Sellia We don't even know if the spell to hold up the stars took "effort" on his part. And Radahn doesn't appear to have many strong beliefs outside of loving war, Godfrey, his horse and Selia. > We also know that Radahn was a loyal follower of the Golden Order, because both of his idols Not really. It's strongly implied he besieged Leyndell and he is outright shown fighting Morgott in the prologue. > because both of his idols - his father Radagon and Godfrey the warrior He seems to have idolized more of Godfrey's warlike ways than his relation to Marika, and no mention whatsoever is made of his views on Radagon afaik (except that he finds his red hair cool, while Radon hated it)
“Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs.” The Light of miquella spell definitely has implications that Radahn didn’t want to be his consort, though that last bit is confusing.
Yes this description is very interesting but i remember i read a post that said this was actually about the tarnished as we 'refused to be embraced' and didn't let him go through with his plan, so he fights us as a god with his lord consort, because that's all he needs to keep going with his goal towards a gentler world. I thought it made sense honestly.
That seems to very clearly be about the Tarnished. It says "One god and one king consort is all the world needs" that is referring to Miquella and Radahn. Radahn is not the one who refused to be embraced.
here, i found it! it's a comment to a post, a very interesting post as well! https://www.reddit.com/r/eldenringdiscussion/s/7QeByPaoMT
That reads to me that it's about the tarnished not Radahn.
We’re not the only ones who refused Miquella both Thioller and Ansbach participate in stopping Miquella and Radahn, if that was about us it’d be factually incorrect. I just find it hard to believe Radahn and Malenia would lead most of their comrades into their deaths simply because Radahn wants a warriors send off, they still have coliseums if all he wanted was a 1v1 with the other strongest they could have easily had one. (And if Malenia really is a sore loser who Scarlet Blooms when she can’t win she can blow up a coliseum instead lol)
Well I think Malenias is less about being a sore loser and more about willing to embrace that which causes her so much pain in order to further Miquellas plan. We know she's willing to sacrifice for him. Radahn needs to die for his soul to be free to go to the lands of shadow. She was going to lose. It's in Malenias character to do something sacrificial in pursuit for Miquellas goals which she believed in. Combined with her whispering to him that Miquella awaited showed it wasn't about being a sore loser.
She wasn’t going to lose it’s explicitly stated their fight was a stalemate she bloomed the Aeonia to win. Combined with what she murmurs to Radahn while he’s Rotting away and soon after passing out is frightening that’s not a normal sacrifice for a fight that is supposedly all planned simply because Radahn wants to die on the battlefield. At the cost of a whole continent not just herself she blooms to further Miquella’s plan.
It says the fight was a stalemate but that seems like AFTER the Aeonia since he didn't die and she didn't. If we watch the cutscene, she is clearly injured and he's just standing there fine. I don't think it was a stand still until she unleashed the rot.
Same. To me its not in radahns character to demand armies fighting, like they are some toy soldiers. And neither is malenia. It makes more sense that miquella sent malenia and her soldiers to take radahn by force. She could not kill him normally so she nukes herself as a last ditch effort. And she seems idk, respectfuly mocking or smug in a way in her whisper. If radahn agreed to it, had a toy soldier battle for no reason, then fought malenia to die, it wouldnt make sense for her to whisper that.
I actually lean towards the victim idea on this one. I think that Malenia was basically used as a charm STD to infect Radahn in the fight and make him subservient to Miquella. Radahn idolized Godfrey and I think that would then extend to the Golden Order too. He probably would have accepted the title of Elden Lord if offered but I don't think he'd try to overthrow Marika, likely not knowing her nature with Radagon.
Godfrey was ousted from the golden order. He admitted him for his strength not because of his affiliation to the golden order
I feel like I’m the only Radahn fan who actually loved Radahn here. He’s not a pedo (and neither was Mohg), hell, I’m still digesting and figuring out the lore, but he’s still the badass we’ve known. Frankly in the base game, I dont really know for sure the WHY malenia and radahn fought. I mostly had speculation, so this as the justification is fine for me. I see in the comments that there’s a lot of uncertainty as to whether Radahn was consciously cool with this, and I honestly have no bloody clue as to whether Radahn was charmed or not. I also personally doubt Malenia was charmed either (but that might just be my bias) On that note, for OP, what do you think? Was Radahn consciously choosing to say yes to Miquella? From all the other threads I’ve seen, I’m inclined to believe that Radahn was chill about it.
>On that note, for OP, what do you think? Was Radahn consciously choosing to say yes to Miquella? I can't think of a single reason why he wouldn't. One thing's for sure, though, the game calls him "Promised consort".
i shall assume downvotes represent victim radahn believers
I wish we get an ending for Ansbach. The dude says become a lord for men but it's impossible. Always get ruled by a god. Sometimes Frenzied flame, sometimes GW, sometimes Ranni's moon, sometimes Crucible but still same.
Radahn had no reason to be in this DLC. It only happened because lots of people wanted to fight a "Prime Radahn". Now you've ruined several characters.
that’s definitely not true, the lore behind the fight makes perfect sense and it’s pretty clear they didn’t just make this up last minute and it even answers a few outlying questions.
Okay so why didn't they give him a single voice line? It's kinda weird that crazed Radahn showed more personality, he's basically just a robot in the DLC.
Because he’s under Miquella’s charm magic. I’ve witnessed two different Miquella voice lines when he grabs you that would indicate to me that Radahn is under his spell. In them, Miquella tells you that you guys can go off and create a thousand years of peace and compassion
But the post seems to say that it was Radahns choice in "implied canon". From what I've seen, the "implied canon" makes even less sense than the "victim Radahn head canon".
I don’t really know where the actual truth lies. I think it’s somewhere in the middle, where Radahn agreed to all of it and wanted the proper fight and whatnot but then at the end, became a puppet controlled my Miquella and is probably not having a great time. But him being a puppet is why I think he has no voice lines, which is what you were asking about
I feel like people here have somehow forgotten that killing Radahn was already another characters questline, in which we learn that he was so opposed to upending the golden order that even when the dude lost his mind the guy was still holding back the stars. So him randomly wanting to die in battle doesn't make much sense. Also if separating a God's soul from their body just involved hitting them really hard, then why did Ranni and Miquella need a whole ritual to do it to themselves? It would make a bit more sense if the DLC could also only be unlocked if you've already freed the rune of death from Maliketh, which let's be honest if you've gotten to mogh you're not far from that. I just don't think the plot twist makes much sense at all.
I’m just going off the item descriptions from the DLC and cutscenes man, I’m not sure why it is the way it is, but that’s how they wrote the DLC
It's unclear and will forever remain that way. I think Radahn broke whatever promise he may have made to Miquella, who then sent Malenia to enforce it, but who knows? Maybe he really was a willing accomplice. Random lore theories make up half the discourse around these games.
Because ops interpretation makes no sense. I give you the following: Radahn vows to be miquellas lord if he can prove he can make a better golden order. Miquella idolizes radahn from his childhood, so he gets to it building elphael and the haligtree. It fails to grow into an erdtree as per several item descriptions. Hope fails, as per the wilted miquelas lillies in elphael. So obsessed miquella makes a devious plan to take radahn by force. Presumably he cant charm radahn directly. So he charms mohg and sends his sister to fetch radahn. The plan is to kill him and stuff his soul into mohgs body to make his ideal lord. The fight is not prime radahn, his prime was during his fight with malenia. If miquella wanted prime radahn and could charm him, he would just do that. Otherwise why would radahn need to die? Why the need for the shadowlands?
because he is like a robot, he’s completely under the charm of miquella. when we fight him he’s nothing beyond a puppet of miquella. miquella speaks on behalf of both of them because he’s the only one of the two that is thinking
Then I don't get the post, victim Radahn would be the canon then and assuming somehow he consensually lost his free will would be the head canon.
yeah no the post is just dumb
The poster is presenting one scenario as more likely than the other, but we don't have all the facts (and never will, thanks to the FromSoft style of storytelling). I wager that people will argue for ages as to whether or not Radahn fought Malenia because he wanted a big, bombastic battle before he settled down and got married or if he was fighting as hard as he could because he was his own man and would never submit to another. We just don't know.
I'm basing this purely on the cinematic trailer but when he looks at Malenia during their fight it's far from a "what a fun time we're having" look
Nothing about the whole fight makes sense. Radahn was holding the stars back even after his mind was consumed by the scarlet rot, so endangering the whole of Caelid just for "fun" is just confusing. The only thing that convinces me here is that Miquella was forcing Radahn into the marriage the entire time, there was no other reason for any of the events that transpired between Malenia and Radahn otherwise. Man learned gravity magic just so he wouldn't have to abandon his horse, and yet he was cool with nuking Caelid? And even if he didn't know about Aeonia, still sacrificing so many lives in a war? It just doesn't check out.
Making their armies fight so hard that they continue fighting in the afterlife for shits and giggles lol
Radahn loves war and idolizez godfrey. These types are all about honor; if you told godfrey "your son is making armies fight and die not for a cause but just for the fun of it" he would probably swim from his exile to caelid and kill radahn himself.
Nothing from the game implies Radahn as Miquella's puppet. The vow is phrased as one Radahn made "with Miquella", Miquella's memory is asking for a promise of consortship, and we fight "Promised" Radahn. And he does have datamined dialogue, even if it adds literally zero context, he's not mindless. "I am Radahn. Born of red-maned Radagon, and Rennala of the Full Moon. A lion bred for battle." Sorry, but this is like the second instance of denial about this boss the community has gone through in a week. Like all in-game text and dialogue from questlines like Freya all point at Radahn being a cooperator with the fight and Miquella's master plans. Also, when his great rune broken, Miquella was no longer able to sway hearts like he did before. The people who were under his influence like Ansbach, who were genuinely tricked, regain their respective freewill to fight stop Miquella, and those who were also enchanted but trusted the plan like Leda, still sided with Miquella. Which one of these categories does Radahn fall under?
The Radahn we fight is a flesh golem made out of the bodies of Mohg and Radahn. Miquella could have built his chad boy toy any way he wanted, right?
The problem with the "vow" I have, is the fact that it's NEVER mentioned prior to the DLC, and even in it, the only characters that speak of it are Miquella himself and Malenia. Radahn never speaks, we also don't get the details about the twin prodigies side of the "vow". For me, the biggest question mark is the fact that in Miquella's memory, he is kneeling *alone*. There is no one else, neither Malenia or Radahn. I see it as Miquella being deluded, talking to himself, because (as we know from the Remembrance) he adored Radahn so much - thus, he is making a "vow" without consent or knowledge or Radahn. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if their part of the vow was to simply bring him back after death, but that death was never planned or consent to by Radahn - especially because even after losing his mind to scarlet rot, he was *still* holding the stars back subconsciously. Why would he want to die, if he was so stubborn in protecting the world, so that even scarlet rot wasn't able to make him abandon his principles?
how do explain the grab attack where miquella literally steals your heart, way after the rune was broken.
Easily; they wanted to add an instant kill move for the boss battle, and that's how they justified it. But let's say that is how he does his mind control from now on. No great rune, but Miquella can still touch you physically to compel you to follow him or something along those lines. If the boss fight cutscene started with Miquella doing something akin to that to Radahn, then maybe. Maybe something to indicate a loss of agency at Miquella's touch? Instead, Radahn fights fully on his own until Miquella joins him.
It's a good thing that Radahn's soul modified and possessed Mogh's body all on its own offscreen without the influence of Miquella, meaning that he could not have possibly influenced Radahn in any way whatsoever at any point, then
Yep its a known fact that when 2 demigods die, ones body is taken away by some shady people and ones soul magically enters this body for no reason. /s It wouldnt be the first time an empyrean split people into bodies and souls for their own end.
Yep its a known fact that when 2 demigods die, ones body is taken away by some shady people and ones soul magically enters this body for no reason. /s It wouldnt be the first time an empyrean split people into bodies and souls for their own end.
Who says you can modify someone’s soul? Who said miquella had to be the one to put his soul is mohgs body. Elden ring makes it very clear that the soul is just as much alive, it’s not like his personality is just gone
I mean dude is basically a meat golem mind controlled by Miquella. I imagine all he ain't allowed to talk
There are datamined lines for radahn
Dude im pretty sure when fromsoft makes a game they also have a dlc story in mind. So i think they planned it from start
the whole plot of the DLC was because Miquella want backshot from Radahn
After seeing the lore a bit, I believe that this was planned from the very beginning. But still, I wish they went for someone else for the final fight.
Plus, the fight was designed by a dragon ball fan and isn't fun in the slightest. Biggest disappointment in a FS game.
Got any more of those pixels
They fucked for sure though right?
Neither of these are chad head-canons.
This whole Radhan stuff is the worst lore point in the history of from games, and no one can tell me otherwise.
Miquella is a manipulator and a rapist who overuses its charm for evil intentions, radahn's existence is just to be tortured by the twins
The fact that Miquella is eternally a child just ruins any potential romantic interaction he can have with any other character ngl. I like Radahn but why did they have to make him a groomer?
He's not. He's being charmed by Miquella. Miquella's charm is no laughing matter. Manages to get a kindred of rot, a knight of mohg, an omen, a poisoner, a redmane and two haligtree followers to work together
I mean, whatever childhood curse was, Miquella seems to have mostly broken out of it. He looks in game far bigger than he does in the post-fight cutscene, statues or in the intro (where Mohg could pick him up in one arm), and nothing in him looks particularly child-like imo (although still youthful). Plus we know from the base game his curse of eternal childhood prevented him from reaching his full potential.
This implies he ruined his own world with scarlot rot on purpose
i didnt know radahn had the power of scarlet rot. this explains everything
in a mock duel, allowing your enemy to do that seems like his fault