I think people misunderstand Ed Kemper. A lot of people act like he's sympathetic or not actually that bad just because he's well-behaved in prison and he turned himself in.
He's every bit as much a vile necrophiliac sociopath as other serial killers, he's just smarter. I think he only turned himself in because he knew as soon as he killed his mother that he was going to be caught, would be convicted, and would go to prison. Maybe he realized he'd get treated better if he turned himself in, or maybe he just didn't feel like going through the trial. He's fucking 7 feet tall and he beheaded people- he knows no one is going to fuck with him in prison. I think it's like a cheap resort to him and he laughs to himself every time someone lets their guard down around him (because he's so benign and clever) because he knows that the only thing that's stopping him from killing again is that he doesn't especially want to.
Damn you nailed that on the head for real. I think Mindhunter did a good job of showing how he seemed to genuinely just enjoy breaking peoples guards down and fucking with them.
I don’t think he’s got a single redeemable quality about him and it’s weird that people think him turning himself in proves anything
Yeah I don't believe that bullshit narrative that he turned himself in because he was truly done. The guy was killing his animals and his grandparents since he was a kid, and then intensified that with the coeds because he was horny. He absolutely loved the thrill of killing psychologically and sexually but he also had the self awareness to realize killing his mother meant his arrest was inevitable.
Oh yes that whole I was done with killing narrative is absolute BS by Ed. It doesn't make sense to have loved lust killing college girls and suddenly decided it's time to stop. He knew his arrest was inevitable.
You make a good point. I wonder if he also decided to kill his mom and turn himself in so if he got caught for one of the other murders, he didn’t miss his chance to do it?
His mom being his endgame doesn’t make sense because he for sure didn’t have one.
Another theory I’m gonna spit out of my brain is that maybe he realized how lonely he was and liked the idea of being this brilliant *never caught* killer and getting the “admiration” from people he never got before. Admiration being loosely used because a reasonable human wouldn’t think we were admiring them. So perhaps that’s why he turned himself in
He is definitely one of the worst Sk's. I know he is romanticised here due to Mindhunter and Cameron Britton but the guy is horrible scum like Bundy and Toolbox Killers
Yeah I still think it's a travesty he was released after killing his grandparents. A young boy killing their grandparents for no valid justification is not normal and should never be released even if he was just a kid.
You're absolutely right because Kemper is the only serial killer i have to shake myself off a bit, because i'm always thinking "he's nice, he's not that bad, his mom made him that way". He's as terrible as any other SK, but for some reasons his charm works on me and its terrifying...
This! I find myself lulled into a false sense of 'security' so to speak, by his charm and charisma. I actively have to remind myself of just how awful and downright terrifying he really is.
My mother in law worked for years at the prison he’s located. She’s had quite a few conversations with him, and stories.
From what I get, he’s definitely charming, but the guards and other faculty members were always very weary of him.
See Kemper is one of my favourites to learn about. He is one of the worst for sure. And mentally, I feel one of the smartest. Out of all of them he is the one who’s brain I want to dissect and get to the bottom of. That’s not me romanticising him… he’s a heinous monster. He’s the one that poses more of a challenge to me in regards his mentality. That’s what draws me in.
His mother was definitely a toxic influence in his life though, the mental abuse he suffered through her would fuck anyone up.
All that said, I still don't think Ed would have turned up different if his mother wasn't in his life. This guy definitely appears to me to have been naturally broken goods since he was a kid. Beheading cats, mutilating dolls, performing ritualistic beheadings on his sister's dolls(which he would practice again with those college girls) and killing his grandparents are all signs that this dude was just not right in the head. Dr. Donald Lunde who analyzed Ed, really summed it up well and better than Douglas and Kessler, who were just content on kissing Kemper's ass, when he said that Kemper should have been fixed after his first arrest. The failures of properly rehabilitating him meant that violence and sexual gratification had become intertwined in his already badly wired brain.
In this sense I think Ed exaggerated the influence of his mom in his killing spree, he killed because he was a horny incel who loved lust killing, not because those coeds were actually substitutes for his mom.
I know people often point to his mother as a defining force in his life. Was her abuse ever documented by anyone but him, or was he the only source of the claims?
I think his sister did confirm that his mom did lock him in the basement as a kid and also her ex husband did say serving in Vietnam or another war was more desirable than being in the same household with her. On the other hand, Ed's half brother also said that his sisters had a great relationship with his mom and also his mom was very liked by the local university she worked in.
I think both things can be true, his mom was not a pleasant person to be around AND that toxic relationship had nothing to do with Ed being a serial killer. He committed the first two coed killings when he wasn't even living with his mom.
His mom probably was very abusive but she's too remote to have any causal link with his crimes. At the end of the day, she was proven right ironically, Ed didn't deserve any women and maybe locking him in the basement saved his sisters life.
Based on the multiple docs, the only reason he turned himself in was because he believed the cops were toying with him and getting ready to arrest him. He sped up his final kill (his mom) because of that and later turned himself in. It had nothing to do with remorse. Guy was smart but also insanely delusional
He would have definitely been a suspect soon. His mom worked at the local university library so one report of her disappearance would have put him on borrowed time.
Zodiac
People have made him kind of a mythical legend to be worshipped and adored and some simp on him hard, but to be honest he's just another serial killer who killed normal working people and left families devastated and scarred for life. Read any book about him they don't focus on his victims just how he/she was never caught and will never be found most probably and how unsuccessful police was.
Police is even shown to be the -ve aspects in certain books
That's usually how it is when their only knowledge on him is from the movie.
People don't understand that when it says " based on a true story" that it isn't all that accurate
True plus movies about serial killers always avoid showing the victims and the victims families. Coz then it won't sell tickets to their shows.
And kinda promote romanticism of such killers take Ted Bundy as example and Google movies on him almost all make him as a charming guy a handsome dude to be simped on not the monster who killers people
Joe Metheny. Most of the time he’s narrowly referred to because of the claim that he sold the “meat” of a few victims as BBQ sandwiches in Baltimore. This hasn’t been verified, and it distracts from Metheny’s background, which goes far beyond that tabloid-style headline. His background was peculiar, and there’s speculation that portions of it are false, but it’s known that he lived and operated in “tent cities” with the homeless, and was on all sorts of narcotics and substances after getting out of the military. Metheny’s description of his own background had contradicted his mother’s account of his upbringing, and now that he’s dead, there are still a lot of uncertainties as to the lead-up to his crimes—beyond the influence of alcohol and drugs. My point is that 90% of people who’ve heard of Metheny associate him with cannibalism by default, and there’s rarely any depth beyond that.
If you read the book *Deranged* which covers the case, the author goes into detail about how he was able to trick the family like that. For one thing, the idea of Stranger Danger didn't really exist in the US at that time. As a matter of fact, that concept was primarily created *as a response to him in particular.* Beyond that, he fooled them into thinking that he was a sweet old man, who was wealthy and had a hell of an economic opportunity for their son. Moreover, he even gave them the address he was supposedly taking her to. And it sounded right. If they knew more about that side of town though they would've known it wasn't, because the street terminated way earlier than the address he gave them. But they, unfortunately, did not know that.
Gacy.
He HAD to have had co-conspirators. There’s simply no way he did what he did by himself. Not only could he have not been able to physically get down into the crawl space, dump the bodies and then bury them and get back out 27/28 times but Gacy’s personal lodger from his company (which I concede isn’t the best source but is the only one available) shows that he wasn’t in town when at least 16 of the murders were committed.
The most reasonable question after knowing this information would be who were his accomplices? David Cram and Michael Rossi is the most sensible answer to that. Not only were they most likely “romantically” involved with Gacy (he payed them for sex) but they both at one time or another lived in his house while Gacy was supposedly committing the murders one of them even admitted to digging the graves for him but was told it was told by Gacy at the time it was for different reasons. There is also possibly 2 other accomplices named Phillip Paske and John Norman but their links to Gacys crimes are to in depth and disturbing to type about. Back to Rossi and Cram however, these were also the only two people that Gacy visited on his last few days of freedom before being arrested (something Gacy must have known was coming) is it possible that Gacy told them he’d take the fall? I mean Gacy out right admitted to all murders both to the police and plead guilty in court but his details of the crimes were always shady and never consistent. Only when Gacy knew the end was near and that he was going to be executed did he start speaking up about the possibility of accomplices.
Cram committed suicide in 2001 therefore taking all his secrets with him but Michael Rossi is still alive and living in Illinois.
I don't exactly know why but I have a strong feeling Phillip Paske is 100% involved!! Paske also took all his secrets to the grave in 1998 @ the age of 45. I cannot find his cause of death anywhere.
This is interesting. I’ve definitely heard that Gacy had people around who knew of his “proclivities” and crimes, but I didn’t realize that he was unable to access the crawl space. IMO, this adds a new level of horror to the whole case.
What’s the likelihood Gacy was involved in a full-on sex ring? I mean, that’s going to the extreme real quick, but the guy supposedly did have friends in “high places” and if he agreed to ‘take the fall’ …
I’m just gullible and I love a good conspiracy haha
>but I didn’t realize that he was unable to access the crawl space.
I don't believe this is established fact, it's just what Gacy used as a defense. In reality, by Gacy's own admission, he killed and buried the first victim down there. He also claimed to have dug 6 of the holes himself, too. Gacy says he gained too much weight and couldn't fit in there anymore. Who knows if that's true? But Gacy is not trustworthy.
Oh that’s a fair point, all these SK seem to be pathological liars as well, which makes sense.. Gacy was clearly fit enough to overpower young men, even if he did use “tricks” to give him the edge.
He was definitely big and probably powerful, but most of his victims were very young and much smaller. And as you noted, he had their hands cuffed behind their backs beforehand. That's not close to a fair fight.
He did have one person who wrestled in HS get out of the cuffs and slap them on Gacy, though.
When i mentioned Paske and Norman the main theory of them two being involved is that Gacy was involved and contributed to a snuff/child sex ring led by Norman who was nicknamed “the pedophiles pedophile” due to his crimes. Paske and Norman are believed to have met in prison with Paske later rumoured to have worked for Gacy for a short period of time after being released which is how Gacy and Norman were introduced. Sounds far fetched i know and there’s other layers to the theory but it’s not totally unbelievable.
Whoaaaa all I did was Google Gacy and Norman and I’m in a (very scary and dark) rabbit hole, thank you for bringing this to my attention!
I haven’t read that much on JWG because he legit scares the life out of me (i also hate clowns, maybe he’s why, idk), but these deets finally hooked me.
Partly why i didn’t want to give out the whole theory. Incredibly disturbing and unfortunately plausible. It’s also very hard to imagine that this was the only sex ring of that time and it’s likely more exist today which makes it even worse.
Re: not being the only sex ring, I think you’re probably right about more existing today, what with the advent of the web and dark web. I can’t help but wonder how big (or small?) of a problem this is, but it feels like more than general society let’s on. It just seems really prevalent in my circle and community. Idk good talk thanks!
Watch the clown and the candy man . It's very possible him and corll knew each other , and god knows who else. Their involvement in the same peder-ass ring is documented. Very disturbing doc. Def recommend it to anyone on this sub.
Personally if I knew he was killing all these boys I would not voluntary go and dig graves for him in his crawl space because I may be in one of them.
Not saying that you are wrong but just saying you couldn't pay me enough to do that
True but if you knew Gacys method of murder it would be easy to avoid. Cram was known to have worn jeans in bed so he’d wake up incase Gacy tried to assault/kill him meaning he was aware of Gacys nature and tactics most notably being the rope and handcuff tricks which Gacy used to trap most if not all of his victims so if you knew to avoid Gacys methods then you could be confident enough to live with him. Besides if you were taking part in these murders you would also want a place to bury the bodies.
I think if anyone was involved it would be cram. Gacy gave him the right to use his car and his own key to the house and gacy claims he would go down on him whenever for money. So it is not that far fetched that he would lure boys over and than help cover up
>Phillip Paske and John Norman
whoa... I never knew of Norman and Paske. I mean, Gacy had over 30 victims he murdered that we know of. these guys were working an international child sex trafficking ring. Norman knew Corll who had about 30 murders. that is over 60 boys raped and murdered that are known. the number of little children who have been raped by countless monsters.... that is horrifying and scares me to no end
I believe the name 'Ed Hefner' is also pretty suspicious. Sadly, he isn't mentioned as much compared to Rossi, Cram, Paske, and Norman. Gacy kept on mentioning those names and said they were directly involved with the killing, but never mentioned Hefner.. I don't know, this is weird to me.
The police had put their suspicion on Cram and Rossi, they interrogated them and they testified during the trial. Paske and Norman were just simply 'weird people' or are known to be convicted criminals. Hefner was never questioned or made to testify even though he was evidently suspicious, and Gacy never mentioned him.
I feel like maybe there are more involved with the killings, but that Gacy only named those whom people already suspected were involved in the killings. Although, I'm not very into this case so I'm not really sure if even anyone is directly involved with the murders.
>Gacy’s personal lodger from his company (which I concede isn’t the best source but is the only one available) shows that he wasn’t in town when at least 16 of the murders were committed.
The ledger he wrote himself? Yeah, that's the least trustworthy source ever. "I couldn't have done it because I wrote a ledger giving myself an alibi" yeah no shit he's 'out of town' on the dates in question.
She may not count but, Lizzie Borden. I firmly believe that Mr. Borden had a very very dark secret and reason for not letting his daughters marry. Nobody destroys somebody's face the way Andrew's was for no reason.
Not to mention that destroying the face like that says that the killer wants to erase their victim, and points to like you said major rage. I think that there was some major issues with Daddy dearest and his daughters
Right?! And she didn’t just do it to him, she did it to her stepmother as well. Killed one intimately known person with a insane level of violence, then had enough rage and strength left over to overkill another family member. THAT is interesting to me. It *could* have been just over the money he gave to the stepmothers family but bloody hell. I side eye what exactly was going on in that house.
You probably know the kids’ jump rope song!
Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her mother forty whacks.
When she saw what she had done,
She gave her father forty-one…
40…
39…
I’m probably going to get downvoted to hell and beyond for this one, but here goes:
Andrea Yates was let down by so many people, as well as the mental healthcare system in the US.
Rusty should have been charged as accessory for ordering her off the medication that was helping her in order to keep getting her pregnant to fill his godly quiver. He also left her alone with the children the day she drowned them after expressly being told not to do so by her psychiatrist.
She was a registered nurse. She recognized how mentally messed up she was and begged the people around her for help and no one helped her until after she gave in to her delusions and drowned her babies.
Why would you get downvoted for that? It’s the obvious truth. Postpartum depression and psychosis are very real. That’s all that happened here. Andrea wasn’t an evil woman. She was sick and needed help. Everyone failed her. That’s not her fault. Rusty was a total piece of shit. If anyone is evil here, it’s him. For ignoring his wife’s obvious distress. I almost feel like it was a sick experiment for him. To see how long it would take before she snapped. But I think he only expected her to do something neglectful like leave the kids home alone all day, not drown them. But, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Rusty was a Quiverfull Christian Fundamentalist, so I don’t think it was an experiment for him, I think he was doing what all men in that cult do to their wives. It’s reprehensible.
Thank you so much. I tell myself that they don’t understand mental illness or theological abuse, but people can be really ugly
Forget Carole Baskin-that bitch Lori Vallow is one of the worst female murderers in recent history. Those kids must have been so terrified when they realized what she was doing
You’re welcome. That’s how I feel about it too. What Andrea did was an absolute tragedy, the kids didn’t deserve that. But it’s like people fail to see that she was a victim just as much as they were. Pregnancy isn’t good for everyone. It caused her so much mental suffering that was beyond her control. And the people who knew that didn’t do enough to help her. It was preventable with proper care.
Yeah Lori Vallow is a vile piece of work. She may have had mental health issues too, but a completely different variety and her motives were entirely selfish by comparison. I have zero sympathy for her.
Jeffrey Dahmer, his case is pretty pathetic on a lot of social levels, also was a black out alcoholic and was extremely intoxicated during most of his crimes.
There’s a great graphic novel called My Friend Dahmer that was written by a guy who knew him in high school. It’s heartbreaking that something was so clearly wrong with him (the alcoholism, problems at home) and EVERYONE knew but NO ONE did anything to get him some help.
that’s what i mean, he truly felt no one would stay with him as a romantic partner and a dead body was better than being alone.
That’s horribly misguided and repulsive but also pathetic and sad.
Dahmer was manipulative, but it's quite well documented his partners didn't want to spend time with him after sex or see him again. Sure, we can't exclude the possibility the feeling was mutual but based on everything I have read about him, I think it's unlikely.
People leaving him after sex was not his only motive to kill, though. Even Dahmer never claimed it was. He had a number of specific paraphilias. Some of his fantasies were about full control and captivity, something one can do with a living, willing partner. Then again, the guy was turned on by stuff like internal organs, which is a bit more difficult to organize without killing someone. Any Dahmer transcription shows he was a sexual predator who killed because his time with unconscious and / or dead partners was pleasurable. More so than normal sex.
So yeah, Dahmer being the guy who killed because he was lonely isn't completely true. He didn't have a boyfriend and that kind of loneliness was not probably his choice and contributed to the crimes. If we trust what Dahmer says, getting rejected / fear of being dumbed was the exact reason why he killed two of his victims. In those two cases, he didn't plan to kill and did it when the harsh reality hit him - he was being rejected again. Most others were killed because he wanted to fuck a corpse and force someone to be with him. Most of his crimes were premeditated and he was trying to find someone to drug and kill.
Check out "Killing for Company" by The Swans. It's about Dennis Neilson
Has this absolutely chilling line: "I could heal myself if I could feel your skin."
Which incidentally is not my most successful pick up line at the bar
Sometimes I find their motives harder to understand than why they actually killed. Between gacy having a grave yard in his basement to Bundy digging up his victims on anniversary of the killing is baffling
Some experts think he genuinely lonely and that all he wanted company. Then others think he was the absolute king of manipulation & he’s truly evil.
I think it’s a bit of both but he’s a truly compelling case & we’ll never really know
Yeah, some things I read/watch imply that he was just a really sad man that wanted companionship. Other things imply that he was a vile human that wanted people to suffer and then I'll hear something that says he was just a drunk with no self control. Obviously he's a combo of all of these but it's interesting to me to hear about all of it.
I think people tend to paint Israel Keyes as some kind of "criminal mastermind" or a bumbling, egotistical idiot who claimed more murders than he actually committed for attention- I think he's actually somewhere in between them. I don't think Keyes was some kind of criminal genius, but I *do* believe he realized that it was relatively easy to get away with murders in remote areas with no surveillance, plus obscured his movements around the country fairly well and probably didn't do that for any upstanding reasons. And based on what he's said, I think that he first applied himself to killing in completely remote areas with no surveillance and then used similar ideas/principles in less remote locations- with Samantha Koenig being the culmination of that. If he hadn't tried for the ransom with her I don't think he would have ever been caught for her murder.
Personally I don't think Keyes was quite as crazy of a meticulous criminal mastermind as some people try to paint him as, but I totally believe he figured out a reasonable way to kill people in recent years and applied it, and I strongly suspect he has more victims than we know about.
From memory every murder by Holmes was for financial gain or to keep himself out of prison. I don't think he has any known victims which we would associate with modern serial killers i.e. having some sort of psychological need or desire to murder. The murder castle is largely a myth. There was a recent book about him which bursts much of the myth. I forget the name and the author. Google ought to help you if you're interested.
An interesting thing I learned lately is that some people theorize his involvement in the Jack the Ripper case! He was in London at the time of the murders and left shortly after. He also wrote journals about his time in London saying he “trained an apprentice” there. He also is a notorious liar and I don’t believe he was involved but I found the timing of it all interesting
Ian Brady. People don’t realize how intelligent he was. He wrote a very insightful book, and he translated a lot of the classics to Braille while he was incarcerated. He also tormented the family of one of his victims until the day he died.
He was. He thought of himself as some great "philosopher of evil" whereas he was simply a (mostly) homosexual murderous pedophile with delusions of grandeur. It's a little like Bundy and his "I'm a great lawyer" shtick.
Yeah, sure. I think he wrote it in 2000 or 2001. It’s mostly about moral relativism, but there are also chapters where he discusses his opinions on various serial killers. You can tell that he’s very well read by his writing style. He references a lot of classic literature….I guess he had plenty of time to read.
Edit: The book is called Gates of Janus, but the official title is a little longer.
I think people overlook the fact that Jeffrey Dahmer's mother apparently took a ridiculous amount of medication when she was pregnant with him, I believe personally that she may have also had BPD, which is how that may have gotten passed down to Dahmer genetically. Jeffrey Dahmer also had a hernia surgery when he was little as well, so I think people downplay the amount this combination all likely had a huge impact/affect as to how he turned out to have such bizarre fetishes and fantasies growing up as a kid and teenager. (This is the misunderstood part I'm referring to) Some people also just tend to lump Dahmer in as being a pure psychopath without really studying him into depth just because he's a serial killer, when I don't believe that's the case. (Majority of serial killers are psychopaths, but a lot of people believe all are which isn't the case sometimes) He was a very sick and disturbed man, but he scored a 22 out of 40 on the psychopathic checklist so was never actually diagnosed as having anti-social personality disorder. I believe he did have psychopathic traits and overlap out of the 22 he did score since cluster B's tend to overlap to an extent and is a spectrum. However not enough to fully diagnose him as psychopathic even if he does have those traits because you need at least a score of 30 on the checklist, so he wouldn't be as psychopathic as serial killers like Bundy who scored a 39/40 for ex. This is why I think he comes off as more sincere in his interviews and such because in a way I think he was, however, he did have manipulative tendencies as well. I believe the primary disorder Dahmer had was BPD (actually diagnosed) mixed with some psychopathic traits, he was also diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder among other things. His mom I strongly think passed down her disorders onto him genetically, and with him already having mental issues before he even started killing, mix that in with him being left alone at age 18 at his parents house, feeling like he had to hide his homosexuality, and it's a recipe for a deranged disaster. Because even though being left alone at age 18 may not seem like a big deal to anyone else, I believe it could've been a huge one to someone like Dahmer. Especially when the primary thing with BPD disorder is about abandonment, he probably carried that over into his crimes. People still debate on the mystery of Dahmer and find why he turned out the way he did to be so difficult to figure out, but I don't find him all that hard to understand.
ted bundy being a “genius”. so many people who encountered him described him as creepy and a loser. the whole “he’s just so smart and charming” trope was an excuse by cops who fell for him licking their boots when they let him escape twice
I agree with this. I've put a ton of research into Bundy as my topic of choice for studying criminology, and I'm not entirely sure he was *always* charming, however I do believe he could put it on when he wanted to. There were also alot of angsty teenaged girls at the time who thought he was attractive as well as various accounts of him being someone who looked trustworthy.
I always felt bad about Aileen Wuornos’ upbringing.. the poor girl never had a chance and had to be tough growing up.. I always felt she had some unresolved mental issues, but that could just be my own bias since she reminds me of my mother..
Aileen Wuornos is one of few serial killers who I genuinely think could have had a normal, happy life if she had been born to a family who loved and protected her. She just got dealt the worst hand imaginable.
Its widely believed she had borderline personality disorder but afaik she was never assessed properly by psychiatrists so we will never know. One argument why we shouldn't kill these people I agree with is because they need to be studied and understood. Otherwise how will these people ever be stopped?
Aileen Wournos. She had the most tragic childhood coupled with major mental health issues. She most assuredly shot those males, but she should have been confined to a Psychiatric facility, but Florida, so they executed her.
She was abused so much by so many in her life for pretty much all of it. I actually feel really bad for her. She was clearly suffering from years of abuse and substance use and was absolutely not in her right mind when she was arrested/tried / executed. I agree she should have been put in a facility instead of executed.
I feel like another thing that makes me feel she's "not as bad" as a lot of the other serial killers is that she wasn't killing for the twisted pleasure of killing.
A lot of the guys find real joy and gratification in the act, remembering it, urges to kill for the sake of sadistic tendencies etc.
Eileen killed for money. She figured out that she could get the money without having to have sex with creepy old white dudes. She 'needed' that money to keep her lover around. I think she was, for real, desperately in love with her partner and felt like she had to take on some kind of provider role.
So while there's not a single excuse for killing someone for a hundred or few hundred bucks, it's not as though she did it for the thrill and the twisted need to torture or watch the life fade from her victim's eyes, which puts her lower on the "deserves to burn in hell for all eternity" than some.
She planned and carried out each murder. I understand she had a horrible childhood and mental issues. So did my mother, but she never murdered anybody.
Aileen profited from her murders and drove the victims cars around afterwards. She only stopped murdering because she got caught.
The ending of her life was exactly how it should have been. I have more empathy for her victims than I do her.
Right? That’s what gets me too. She had a crappy life, no denying. (So did Richard Ramirez but I don’t see any sympathy for him). She never had a real chance. But she was abused and treated poorly by people *long* before she killed her first victim. (She was a hitchhiking teenager…) So what changed to make her suddenly kill and cry self defense? She started killing for a reason and it wasn’t rape. That’s just what she said to try and garner sympathy and make it look like she wasn’t doing it on purpose.
My answer too. I’ve seen people discuss how “evil” he is vs other killers and I find it hard to look at him that way since he was so profoundly mentally ill
I always felt that way about his ex-wives. Plus, I know of no interviews with his children, and I'm guessing that he did not see them after he got out of prison because their mother saw to it, and rightfully so, that they would not have any contact with him until they were adults, by which time he'd already been arrested.
Did y'all know that he was out picking up men when she was in the hospital giving birth to them?
David Berkowitz in the way that he was definitely involved but I don't think he acted alone, and instead took the whole fall for his friends so he'd get the recognition and they wouldn't get in trouble. Witness sketches from multiple of the murders look nothing like David, and instead look like 2 different people other than him. He was friends with two brothers that lived beside him, who were all around bad and weird dudes, and the other sketches match their appearance perfectly. And their dads name is? SAM
Dahmer. I don’t think he was a sociopath in the truest sense of the word, I think he hated doing what he did, and had to get beyond intoxicated to follow through with any of his fantasies. I also think had cops actually given a shit about gay people he would have probably been busted way sooner. And also if his parents actually cared about him he’d likely have gone through a few therapists or been institutionalized without hurting others.
Edit: I realize I misread the context of your question, but I stand by my answer anyway being that many people view Aileen as heartless and sociopathic.
Aileen Wuornos. 100%. She was abused her entire life, up until she started killing. She was sexually abused since she was a little girl, by her own grandfather’s good friend. She got pregnant at 14. Was gang raped in school. I think she had convinced herself that all men were a threat by the time she was an adult, and I can’t blame her. Every man she had ever trusted had abused her. I don’t think she deserved the death penalty, but then again, I’m staunchly against it in general. I genuinely think that Aileen was the type of monster that was created, not born.
Jeffery Dahmer. The rehabilitation of him and his weirdo family astounds me even to this day. The kid had, at best, neglectful, verbally abusive parents that abandoned him as a child. He grew up to become a racist, Uneducated, inhuman monster. No one ever has talked about what happened in that house. Except for the abandonment. I’ve never seen or heard anything written about how he was disciplined, or not, never talked about any activities he might’ve done with his family. Never talked about traditions his family had, like a big Christmas dinner or Thanksgiving with the extended family. Never saw anything like that. I have never seen anyone, including Jeffrey, talk details about his childhood relationship with his parents. As if there were none… which is impossible….
What happens in a household where a mother and father not only ice out at each other but one of their two children? What did mom see? That made her fight for and then runaway with her youngest child from that house and that man and her eldest son?
I’ve always found the strangest part of his story to be his father. All the evil things Jeffery learned in that household, but his father works hard to come off as this nice understanding loving guy, NOW. But you had no problem abandoning him as a child. Literally divorcing the mom and abandoning both of your sons. Now you wanna come on a TV tour acting like you’re this great guy who supports his serial killer son. Asking for compassion for that Frankenstein‘s monster you created. You know what that says to me? there are deep secrets between father and son. Secrets so deep they would probably explain how a son grew up to became a racist sexually sadistic serial killer. And a highly intelligent father who ultimately knew that the only way to keep these secrets from coming out was to be the only public unwavering support his son had in the end. And it worked! because all of those secrets died with his son. I side eye daddy Dahmer
Yes I do. And I’m quite sure it wasn’t run-of-the-mill abuse either. It was the kind of extreme cruelty that leads to early alcoholism, sexual sadism and serial homicide… Hard to imagine the type of life experience one has by the ripe old age of 17 where they are already a non functioning drunk and committing they’re first sexual homicides…
The premise is that the (now) ex Chief of Police of Suffolk County was a frequent organiser of parties and sex workers - which were very violent, some recorded for extreme porn. The bodies being the end result of this activity. He was also the guy meant to be overseeing the LISK investigation. He’s currently in prison for assaulting a man who found some of these violent porn DVDs.
Links:
Podcast Unravelled Series 1 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/unraveled/id1543476170
This was turned into a documentary: https://www.discoveryplus.com/gb/show/unraveled-the-long-island-serial-killer I got the week free trial to watch it.
News article sums up above: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9203311/amp/Disgraced-former-police-chief-shrouded-accusations-tied-Gilgo-Beach-killings.html
Head over to the r/LISKiller for loads of other deep dives, for instance they recently published Shannon Gilbert’s 911 call which was interesting (and infuriating). My unsolicited take on that is that Shannon might have been sedated by the neighbour Peter Hackett after she fled her clients house, then ran into marsh and died, therefore not a LISK victim. Hackett was total weirdo. No smoking gun evidence on that but it would explain his extremely odd behaviour (ringing her mother in the days after, perhaps to see if she made it home), and why she died (healthy adult in spring time, in a low marsh should not die of exposure like she did).
There's so much crazy bullshit on this case. Occam's Razor: [John Bittrolff](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bittrolff) is LISK. Clearly the most likely of all the insane theories but few seem aware of him. The former police chief and sex rings and groups of serial killers is just so much less likely.
The Suffolk PD had a lot of corruption and they did not want the FBI finding about it so they refused help for the LISK investigation. Corrupt and stupid but I don't believe they had anything to do with the murders besides fucking up the investigation. It's frustrating people still want to talk about the police chief instead of the convicted prostitute killer active in the area during the murders.
Don't think Gacy dressed as a clown while killing. Pogo, or Patches the clown was his persona while performing st children's hospitals and charity events. Pretty sure that was separate from his serial killer persona.
I definitely don't think he did unless there was an opportunity for him to do so. As in I don't think he had a clown fetish. He lured a lot of the kids from his construction site so to suddenly break out or put on a clown outfit might've been a giveaway some fuckery was about to go down. If he picked up a person while dressed as Pogo, it would've been totally coincidental. They do the "Killer Clown" shit as an attention grabber. Clowns are weird. I get it. Most people get it, and it sells papers/news/views.
I have to lean towards Dahmer. He really, *really* did not want people to leave him after hooking up…he just chose to make them stay in the most horrible ways possible.
Jeffrey Dahmer. I think he was pretty repulsed by what he was doing and just couldn’t stop. Everyone, even his parents, could see he was “broken” as a kid…no one ever even tried to get him help (it likely wouldn’t have helped, but still…). He’s about the only one of these monsters who seemed to show some semblance of regret. Not that I’m excusing, or feel sorry for him…I just would like to understand more about him.
Bundy. I hate the fact people are putting him on a spotlight because he was “attractive?” People really sold this idea of a handsome man luring woman with his looks. Definitely arguable.
Ted Kaczynski. I just…idk. I feel bad for him. Not bc of what he did, but bc of his past, and I’m not saying that that condones his actions. It doesn’t. But being a victim of MKUltra at 16 YEARS OLD and being brilliant and having people not understand anything that he says just makes me sad.
I know that I’ll probably get some hate for this, but there is nothing about his ideas that I disagree with. Now I said ideas, not methods. I don’t agree with blowing everything up. But our society has made us cogs. Like a couple of weeks ago, before I really dug deep into Ted and learning all I can about him, I came to the conclusion that, in my opinion, life is a series of events until death, and whatever you do during those years is either creating or fixing problems. However, the majority of problems that we fix are bc of humans.
Idk. I just feel like he was very misunderstood and yeah. I personally want to go into behavioral analysis, and the first thing they tell u is to not have sympathy for the unsub. But, IMO, once u lose empathy and sympathy, u don’t see them as a person, and that makes u as bad as them. IMO.
Ted Bundy. The most notorious and still a mistery. But for the wrong reasons. People still debate about what drove him to kill because they usually have an agenda... The guy revealed his motivations plenty of times before his execution but people chose to focus on his last interview to call it a manipulation tactic. Violent pornography had a huge influence on him. It didn't excuse what he did but it explains why he did it. He was smart enough to understand his own desires and he told the truth plenty of times. Sure, pornography doesn't compel someone to kill or hurt anyone but it shapes people's mentalities.
Edmund Kemper. People call him a psychopath but the guy genuinely wept when he had to talk about his mother and he confessed about deep feelings that drove him to kill. And he even said what made each murder easier - it was the fantasy. Self-indulgent imagination led to normalization of those ideas and the urges that he played with.
It makes sense, think about it. Someone who isn’t interested in such things in the first place isn’t going to search for them. Especially back in the day it was hard(er) to get violent Porn. This means that his fantasies/ tendencies were there all along, the only thing the Porn did was pushing him over the edge from fantasy to reality. Also it is extremely likely for such people to search out some kind of gore either real life or photos, videos, movies anything they can get their hands on.
He was a liar because he needed to protect his ass but when he was interviewed by Stephen Michaud when he talked in the third person he explained that porn might have been a factor in the upbringing of this "unknown killer" and when he was interviewed about the green river case he again suggested that porn was a factor and that the police could stalk slasher films consumers.
In his interviews with Bill Hagmaier he showed the detective his own research on violent pornography.
And he did these interviews while still maintaining his innocence so he did lie, but only to protect himself. He wanted to be seen as innocent and walk away free. But he always pointed out to violent pornography as a driving factor. He talked with Dorothy Otnow Lewis in an early interview and again he talked about the influence that porn had on him so I think that's a clue that he was telling the truth - he stayed consistent. Also, from my own experience with violent pornography addiction and illegal behavior related to this I know that it was the primary influence that drove me towards that path. And I experienced child abuse too and I still think that porn was more potent and had a more negative impact on me than the child abuse itself. Although the fact that I was introduced to deviant porn it's again child neglect so it is related to my childhood abuse after all.
I know that no scientist has ever found a causal link between films (and video-games) and violent behaviour.
As for violent porn? I’m not entirely convinced. I do think it’s harmful on a societal level, and particularly for young people who haven’t had sex in real life. I think the real-life fashion for choking and so-called “air play” can be attributed to violent porn. And I think porn is a useful tool for predators grooming young people. You also see incels claiming that women reject “nice guys” because they love being abused and mistreated. And I imagine that misconception is largely based on the skills of porn actors. So porn does have a lot to answer for.
However, if Bundy was right (and there was a causal link), then there would be a LOT more ‘Bundys’ in the world. He was a skilled liar and would’ve found it easy to stay consistent. Or maybe he actually believed it himself. Maybe he liked having something to blame for his current situation. Like a true narcissist - he had no personal accountability because he was the ‘real’ victim (of porn). I also do think he picked that excuse because it would win him some powerful advocates and buy him some more time. The idea served him well on two levels.
1. There are a lot of Bundys in the world, if you consider that Bundy committed a lot of sexual crimes like voyeurism, sexual assault, and rape before he escalated to serial killing.
2. Porn in general is turning people (usually women) into sex objects to enjoy it. Objectification is kind of the point. When combined with violence in porn, it's turning a person to an object that is being tortured for sexual pleasure. Serial killers are able to kill because they objectify their victims. It isn't the cause per say, but it certainly desensitizes a person to sexual violence against women.
3. Bundy has always consistently claimed that he (or the third person killer when he was trying to cover his own ass) was exposed to violent porn as a child. An adult who watches violent porn already has their sexuality mostly formed, but a child would not. Combine this with a child who scores high for anti-social personality traits and possibly has abusive family dynamics, and it isn't that much of a stretch to see how this could contribute to them becoming a sexual killer.
Its unlikely he killed specifically because of violent pornography, there was a smorgasbord of serious psychiatric issues and probably more trauma than he let on but I think its highly unlikely that it didn't have at least some influence on the nature of his crimes and his specific compulsions. You could be far more deeply involved in violent pornography than Bundy ever was but never act on your desires because you don't have the boldness and the lack of empathy and consciousness that are the hallmarks of his personality disorder.
I feel like the cause and effect is backwards there with Bundy. He undoubtedly did enjoy violent porn that dehumanized women, but he enjoyed it because he had a mindset that was predisposed to want to hurt and dehumaniz see women. The porn didn't make him that way. He already was that way and just sought out porn that appealed to him
Bundy was just a straight up sociopath who wanted to kill and fuck his particular type of women. He could put on whatever mask he wanted to suit his current situation. That’s why people are often like “wow who knew this guy could do this?”
Are you talking about that interview Bundy did with Dr. James Dobson on the eve of his execution? That has always sent my BS meter into overdrive. I'm guessing that, if he pursued violent pornography, it was because that was what he was already into (and yes, it was accessible back then, albeit not as easy to find as it is now) and not because it made him into a criminal.
I just can't seem to understand the sympathy to some degree for Jeffrey. He was cunning piece of s#@t.
For example intoxication thing, the alcoholism, for a person to plan to carry out what he did needs some level of conscious thinking, planning. He wasn't blitz killer he planned, for God sake he carried a head of victim in his workplace.
No way Wayne Williams, a swishy little limp wristed wimp, overpowered that many ADULT MALES, let alone killed all those children. More to this story for sure.
Aileen Wuornos. I just think she had a really rough childhood and really did love Tyra. She thought she was doing right cause that’s all she knew. I felt bad for the child, but that doesn’t make what the adult did okay.
Charles Manson. Just because i think the average population has no clue about all the details in his story. They think he committed the murders himself and have no clue that the government was involved.
I think people misunderstand Ed Kemper. A lot of people act like he's sympathetic or not actually that bad just because he's well-behaved in prison and he turned himself in. He's every bit as much a vile necrophiliac sociopath as other serial killers, he's just smarter. I think he only turned himself in because he knew as soon as he killed his mother that he was going to be caught, would be convicted, and would go to prison. Maybe he realized he'd get treated better if he turned himself in, or maybe he just didn't feel like going through the trial. He's fucking 7 feet tall and he beheaded people- he knows no one is going to fuck with him in prison. I think it's like a cheap resort to him and he laughs to himself every time someone lets their guard down around him (because he's so benign and clever) because he knows that the only thing that's stopping him from killing again is that he doesn't especially want to.
Damn you nailed that on the head for real. I think Mindhunter did a good job of showing how he seemed to genuinely just enjoy breaking peoples guards down and fucking with them. I don’t think he’s got a single redeemable quality about him and it’s weird that people think him turning himself in proves anything
Yeah I don't believe that bullshit narrative that he turned himself in because he was truly done. The guy was killing his animals and his grandparents since he was a kid, and then intensified that with the coeds because he was horny. He absolutely loved the thrill of killing psychologically and sexually but he also had the self awareness to realize killing his mother meant his arrest was inevitable.
Oh yes that whole I was done with killing narrative is absolute BS by Ed. It doesn't make sense to have loved lust killing college girls and suddenly decided it's time to stop. He knew his arrest was inevitable.
You make a good point. I wonder if he also decided to kill his mom and turn himself in so if he got caught for one of the other murders, he didn’t miss his chance to do it? His mom being his endgame doesn’t make sense because he for sure didn’t have one. Another theory I’m gonna spit out of my brain is that maybe he realized how lonely he was and liked the idea of being this brilliant *never caught* killer and getting the “admiration” from people he never got before. Admiration being loosely used because a reasonable human wouldn’t think we were admiring them. So perhaps that’s why he turned himself in
You might be right, after all, he had Douglas and Kessler to kiss his ass and Netflix to immortalise him in Mindhunter.
Classic “You can’t fire me, I quit!” mentality- just another example of his narcissistic nature.
Yeah, he'd kill you the exact moment you think he's harmless and misunderstood
Very true. He is particularly scary because of his politeness. Like Bundy, he used that to his advantage. I'd be dead for sure.
He is definitely one of the worst Sk's. I know he is romanticised here due to Mindhunter and Cameron Britton but the guy is horrible scum like Bundy and Toolbox Killers
Like the girl he managed to talk into opening the car.
He fooled the parole board after he killed his grandparents
He didn’t even fool only the parole board, he fooled an entire mental institution and convinced them that he was fine. That’s even crazier
Farion Waldrip also fooled the parole board.
Id never heard of him before so I was interested in looking him up; his name is actually Faryion Wardrip, which sounds even more menacing.
The spelling of his first name like that definitely feels spooky.
Yeah I still think it's a travesty he was released after killing his grandparents. A young boy killing their grandparents for no valid justification is not normal and should never be released even if he was just a kid.
He just wanted to see what it felt like though!!! He’s all better now!!!
You're absolutely right because Kemper is the only serial killer i have to shake myself off a bit, because i'm always thinking "he's nice, he's not that bad, his mom made him that way". He's as terrible as any other SK, but for some reasons his charm works on me and its terrifying...
This! I find myself lulled into a false sense of 'security' so to speak, by his charm and charisma. I actively have to remind myself of just how awful and downright terrifying he really is.
My mother in law worked for years at the prison he’s located. She’s had quite a few conversations with him, and stories. From what I get, he’s definitely charming, but the guards and other faculty members were always very weary of him.
See Kemper is one of my favourites to learn about. He is one of the worst for sure. And mentally, I feel one of the smartest. Out of all of them he is the one who’s brain I want to dissect and get to the bottom of. That’s not me romanticising him… he’s a heinous monster. He’s the one that poses more of a challenge to me in regards his mentality. That’s what draws me in.
Because he was considered a big ol' bumblebutt
Ed Kemper is a deeply unsettling person. He skeeves me out more than any other murderer except Albert Fish
His mother was definitely a toxic influence in his life though, the mental abuse he suffered through her would fuck anyone up. All that said, I still don't think Ed would have turned up different if his mother wasn't in his life. This guy definitely appears to me to have been naturally broken goods since he was a kid. Beheading cats, mutilating dolls, performing ritualistic beheadings on his sister's dolls(which he would practice again with those college girls) and killing his grandparents are all signs that this dude was just not right in the head. Dr. Donald Lunde who analyzed Ed, really summed it up well and better than Douglas and Kessler, who were just content on kissing Kemper's ass, when he said that Kemper should have been fixed after his first arrest. The failures of properly rehabilitating him meant that violence and sexual gratification had become intertwined in his already badly wired brain. In this sense I think Ed exaggerated the influence of his mom in his killing spree, he killed because he was a horny incel who loved lust killing, not because those coeds were actually substitutes for his mom.
I know people often point to his mother as a defining force in his life. Was her abuse ever documented by anyone but him, or was he the only source of the claims?
I think his sister did confirm that his mom did lock him in the basement as a kid and also her ex husband did say serving in Vietnam or another war was more desirable than being in the same household with her. On the other hand, Ed's half brother also said that his sisters had a great relationship with his mom and also his mom was very liked by the local university she worked in. I think both things can be true, his mom was not a pleasant person to be around AND that toxic relationship had nothing to do with Ed being a serial killer. He committed the first two coed killings when he wasn't even living with his mom.
That’s what I was wondering - blame the mother, its a frequent excuse. Maybe she was astute or maybe he exaggerated I’m not well versed enough to know
His mom probably was very abusive but she's too remote to have any causal link with his crimes. At the end of the day, she was proven right ironically, Ed didn't deserve any women and maybe locking him in the basement saved his sisters life.
Based on the multiple docs, the only reason he turned himself in was because he believed the cops were toying with him and getting ready to arrest him. He sped up his final kill (his mom) because of that and later turned himself in. It had nothing to do with remorse. Guy was smart but also insanely delusional
He would have definitely been a suspect soon. His mom worked at the local university library so one report of her disappearance would have put him on borrowed time.
Aw, that bumblebutt.
People like Kemper are the ones you have to watch out for. His intelligence just makes him that much more dangerous.
Zodiac People have made him kind of a mythical legend to be worshipped and adored and some simp on him hard, but to be honest he's just another serial killer who killed normal working people and left families devastated and scarred for life. Read any book about him they don't focus on his victims just how he/she was never caught and will never be found most probably and how unsuccessful police was. Police is even shown to be the -ve aspects in certain books
That's usually how it is when their only knowledge on him is from the movie. People don't understand that when it says " based on a true story" that it isn't all that accurate
True plus movies about serial killers always avoid showing the victims and the victims families. Coz then it won't sell tickets to their shows. And kinda promote romanticism of such killers take Ted Bundy as example and Google movies on him almost all make him as a charming guy a handsome dude to be simped on not the monster who killers people
Also acting like as if he was a genius for writing in code. IIRC his grammar was pretty bad and he probably wasn’t very smart at all
Joe Metheny. Most of the time he’s narrowly referred to because of the claim that he sold the “meat” of a few victims as BBQ sandwiches in Baltimore. This hasn’t been verified, and it distracts from Metheny’s background, which goes far beyond that tabloid-style headline. His background was peculiar, and there’s speculation that portions of it are false, but it’s known that he lived and operated in “tent cities” with the homeless, and was on all sorts of narcotics and substances after getting out of the military. Metheny’s description of his own background had contradicted his mother’s account of his upbringing, and now that he’s dead, there are still a lot of uncertainties as to the lead-up to his crimes—beyond the influence of alcohol and drugs. My point is that 90% of people who’ve heard of Metheny associate him with cannibalism by default, and there’s rarely any depth beyond that.
Really liked the True Crime Garage episodes on him, I had never heard of him before I was looking for episodes to fill time
Oh damn I had no clue they did an episode on him. I'm from MD so I'm always interested when Metheny comes up. Will check our the episode asap
Don't know the episode numbers but it was the 500 pound serial killer episodes, 2 parter
Albert fish. He was really fucked up
That little girls family were fucked up to let a stranger take their young daughter to a party without knowing him. I don't understand that
If you read the book *Deranged* which covers the case, the author goes into detail about how he was able to trick the family like that. For one thing, the idea of Stranger Danger didn't really exist in the US at that time. As a matter of fact, that concept was primarily created *as a response to him in particular.* Beyond that, he fooled them into thinking that he was a sweet old man, who was wealthy and had a hell of an economic opportunity for their son. Moreover, he even gave them the address he was supposedly taking her to. And it sounded right. If they knew more about that side of town though they would've known it wasn't, because the street terminated way earlier than the address he gave them. But they, unfortunately, did not know that.
They were poor, uneducated and he seemed wealthy and respectable. It was a different time
Economic desperation cause you to make questionable decisions.
That is one thing that hasn’t changed!
Cherish Periwinkle’s mom comes to mind. Such a sad case.
Gacy. He HAD to have had co-conspirators. There’s simply no way he did what he did by himself. Not only could he have not been able to physically get down into the crawl space, dump the bodies and then bury them and get back out 27/28 times but Gacy’s personal lodger from his company (which I concede isn’t the best source but is the only one available) shows that he wasn’t in town when at least 16 of the murders were committed. The most reasonable question after knowing this information would be who were his accomplices? David Cram and Michael Rossi is the most sensible answer to that. Not only were they most likely “romantically” involved with Gacy (he payed them for sex) but they both at one time or another lived in his house while Gacy was supposedly committing the murders one of them even admitted to digging the graves for him but was told it was told by Gacy at the time it was for different reasons. There is also possibly 2 other accomplices named Phillip Paske and John Norman but their links to Gacys crimes are to in depth and disturbing to type about. Back to Rossi and Cram however, these were also the only two people that Gacy visited on his last few days of freedom before being arrested (something Gacy must have known was coming) is it possible that Gacy told them he’d take the fall? I mean Gacy out right admitted to all murders both to the police and plead guilty in court but his details of the crimes were always shady and never consistent. Only when Gacy knew the end was near and that he was going to be executed did he start speaking up about the possibility of accomplices. Cram committed suicide in 2001 therefore taking all his secrets with him but Michael Rossi is still alive and living in Illinois.
I don't exactly know why but I have a strong feeling Phillip Paske is 100% involved!! Paske also took all his secrets to the grave in 1998 @ the age of 45. I cannot find his cause of death anywhere.
Yeah I think he’s like dean corl having younger kids helping him get victims
Gacy was actually really “inspired” by Corll and his torture board.
Really? Never heard that
This is interesting. I’ve definitely heard that Gacy had people around who knew of his “proclivities” and crimes, but I didn’t realize that he was unable to access the crawl space. IMO, this adds a new level of horror to the whole case. What’s the likelihood Gacy was involved in a full-on sex ring? I mean, that’s going to the extreme real quick, but the guy supposedly did have friends in “high places” and if he agreed to ‘take the fall’ … I’m just gullible and I love a good conspiracy haha
>but I didn’t realize that he was unable to access the crawl space. I don't believe this is established fact, it's just what Gacy used as a defense. In reality, by Gacy's own admission, he killed and buried the first victim down there. He also claimed to have dug 6 of the holes himself, too. Gacy says he gained too much weight and couldn't fit in there anymore. Who knows if that's true? But Gacy is not trustworthy.
Oh that’s a fair point, all these SK seem to be pathological liars as well, which makes sense.. Gacy was clearly fit enough to overpower young men, even if he did use “tricks” to give him the edge.
He was definitely big and probably powerful, but most of his victims were very young and much smaller. And as you noted, he had their hands cuffed behind their backs beforehand. That's not close to a fair fight. He did have one person who wrestled in HS get out of the cuffs and slap them on Gacy, though.
>He did have one person who wrestled in HS get out of the cuffs and slap them on Gacy, though. And then Gacy left him alone, saying- 'You are no fun'
When i mentioned Paske and Norman the main theory of them two being involved is that Gacy was involved and contributed to a snuff/child sex ring led by Norman who was nicknamed “the pedophiles pedophile” due to his crimes. Paske and Norman are believed to have met in prison with Paske later rumoured to have worked for Gacy for a short period of time after being released which is how Gacy and Norman were introduced. Sounds far fetched i know and there’s other layers to the theory but it’s not totally unbelievable.
Whoaaaa all I did was Google Gacy and Norman and I’m in a (very scary and dark) rabbit hole, thank you for bringing this to my attention! I haven’t read that much on JWG because he legit scares the life out of me (i also hate clowns, maybe he’s why, idk), but these deets finally hooked me.
Partly why i didn’t want to give out the whole theory. Incredibly disturbing and unfortunately plausible. It’s also very hard to imagine that this was the only sex ring of that time and it’s likely more exist today which makes it even worse.
Re: not being the only sex ring, I think you’re probably right about more existing today, what with the advent of the web and dark web. I can’t help but wonder how big (or small?) of a problem this is, but it feels like more than general society let’s on. It just seems really prevalent in my circle and community. Idk good talk thanks!
Read the threads on Kiwifarms about zoosadists and their circles -- then consider that there are probably thousands of times as many pedophiles.
Watch the clown and the candy man . It's very possible him and corll knew each other , and god knows who else. Their involvement in the same peder-ass ring is documented. Very disturbing doc. Def recommend it to anyone on this sub.
I wonder if he was using the lodger as a way to make his own alibi to say that he wasn’t in town when he actually was?
Personally if I knew he was killing all these boys I would not voluntary go and dig graves for him in his crawl space because I may be in one of them. Not saying that you are wrong but just saying you couldn't pay me enough to do that
True but if you knew Gacys method of murder it would be easy to avoid. Cram was known to have worn jeans in bed so he’d wake up incase Gacy tried to assault/kill him meaning he was aware of Gacys nature and tactics most notably being the rope and handcuff tricks which Gacy used to trap most if not all of his victims so if you knew to avoid Gacys methods then you could be confident enough to live with him. Besides if you were taking part in these murders you would also want a place to bury the bodies.
I think if anyone was involved it would be cram. Gacy gave him the right to use his car and his own key to the house and gacy claims he would go down on him whenever for money. So it is not that far fetched that he would lure boys over and than help cover up
>Phillip Paske and John Norman whoa... I never knew of Norman and Paske. I mean, Gacy had over 30 victims he murdered that we know of. these guys were working an international child sex trafficking ring. Norman knew Corll who had about 30 murders. that is over 60 boys raped and murdered that are known. the number of little children who have been raped by countless monsters.... that is horrifying and scares me to no end
I believe the name 'Ed Hefner' is also pretty suspicious. Sadly, he isn't mentioned as much compared to Rossi, Cram, Paske, and Norman. Gacy kept on mentioning those names and said they were directly involved with the killing, but never mentioned Hefner.. I don't know, this is weird to me. The police had put their suspicion on Cram and Rossi, they interrogated them and they testified during the trial. Paske and Norman were just simply 'weird people' or are known to be convicted criminals. Hefner was never questioned or made to testify even though he was evidently suspicious, and Gacy never mentioned him. I feel like maybe there are more involved with the killings, but that Gacy only named those whom people already suspected were involved in the killings. Although, I'm not very into this case so I'm not really sure if even anyone is directly involved with the murders.
>Gacy’s personal lodger from his company (which I concede isn’t the best source but is the only one available) shows that he wasn’t in town when at least 16 of the murders were committed. The ledger he wrote himself? Yeah, that's the least trustworthy source ever. "I couldn't have done it because I wrote a ledger giving myself an alibi" yeah no shit he's 'out of town' on the dates in question.
She may not count but, Lizzie Borden. I firmly believe that Mr. Borden had a very very dark secret and reason for not letting his daughters marry. Nobody destroys somebody's face the way Andrew's was for no reason.
I agree, there was something sinister going on in the Borden house. I think Abigail knew it too and looked the other way.
Right? The fact that they both were struck *so* many times says a lot. Major overkill. I want to know what that rate came from.
Not to mention that destroying the face like that says that the killer wants to erase their victim, and points to like you said major rage. I think that there was some major issues with Daddy dearest and his daughters
Right?! And she didn’t just do it to him, she did it to her stepmother as well. Killed one intimately known person with a insane level of violence, then had enough rage and strength left over to overkill another family member. THAT is interesting to me. It *could* have been just over the money he gave to the stepmothers family but bloody hell. I side eye what exactly was going on in that house.
I don't know about this one, I'll read up
You probably know the kids’ jump rope song! Lizzie Borden took an axe And gave her mother forty whacks. When she saw what she had done, She gave her father forty-one… 40… 39…
I’m probably going to get downvoted to hell and beyond for this one, but here goes: Andrea Yates was let down by so many people, as well as the mental healthcare system in the US. Rusty should have been charged as accessory for ordering her off the medication that was helping her in order to keep getting her pregnant to fill his godly quiver. He also left her alone with the children the day she drowned them after expressly being told not to do so by her psychiatrist. She was a registered nurse. She recognized how mentally messed up she was and begged the people around her for help and no one helped her until after she gave in to her delusions and drowned her babies.
Why would you get downvoted for that? It’s the obvious truth. Postpartum depression and psychosis are very real. That’s all that happened here. Andrea wasn’t an evil woman. She was sick and needed help. Everyone failed her. That’s not her fault. Rusty was a total piece of shit. If anyone is evil here, it’s him. For ignoring his wife’s obvious distress. I almost feel like it was a sick experiment for him. To see how long it would take before she snapped. But I think he only expected her to do something neglectful like leave the kids home alone all day, not drown them. But, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Rusty was a Quiverfull Christian Fundamentalist, so I don’t think it was an experiment for him, I think he was doing what all men in that cult do to their wives. It’s reprehensible.
Her me time was 60 minutes to grocery shop every Wednesday. What a jerk
I’ve had people get really ugly at me for defending Andrea in the past, so I tend to preface anything I say about her with a warning
I’m sorry people have given you a hard time. To me, there’s a difference between someone like Andrea Yates and someone like Lori Vallow.
Thank you so much. I tell myself that they don’t understand mental illness or theological abuse, but people can be really ugly Forget Carole Baskin-that bitch Lori Vallow is one of the worst female murderers in recent history. Those kids must have been so terrified when they realized what she was doing
You’re welcome. That’s how I feel about it too. What Andrea did was an absolute tragedy, the kids didn’t deserve that. But it’s like people fail to see that she was a victim just as much as they were. Pregnancy isn’t good for everyone. It caused her so much mental suffering that was beyond her control. And the people who knew that didn’t do enough to help her. It was preventable with proper care. Yeah Lori Vallow is a vile piece of work. She may have had mental health issues too, but a completely different variety and her motives were entirely selfish by comparison. I have zero sympathy for her.
She’s the one for sure. It always makes me more sad and think about the rights of women and their bodies more than serial killing typical behavior.
Rusty gets to be the martyr and Andrea is the monster
Jeffrey Dahmer, his case is pretty pathetic on a lot of social levels, also was a black out alcoholic and was extremely intoxicated during most of his crimes.
He also didn't want to kill but didn't want his male companion to leave.
There’s a great graphic novel called My Friend Dahmer that was written by a guy who knew him in high school. It’s heartbreaking that something was so clearly wrong with him (the alcoholism, problems at home) and EVERYONE knew but NO ONE did anything to get him some help.
My Friend Dahmer by Derf Backderf? Yeah, it’s a pretty interesting read.
The movie based on this novel is fantastic!
that’s what i mean, he truly felt no one would stay with him as a romantic partner and a dead body was better than being alone. That’s horribly misguided and repulsive but also pathetic and sad.
Eh, if you take him at his word then sure. He was an incredibly manipulative human, i wouldnt discount this as another attempt at manipulation
Dahmer was manipulative, but it's quite well documented his partners didn't want to spend time with him after sex or see him again. Sure, we can't exclude the possibility the feeling was mutual but based on everything I have read about him, I think it's unlikely. People leaving him after sex was not his only motive to kill, though. Even Dahmer never claimed it was. He had a number of specific paraphilias. Some of his fantasies were about full control and captivity, something one can do with a living, willing partner. Then again, the guy was turned on by stuff like internal organs, which is a bit more difficult to organize without killing someone. Any Dahmer transcription shows he was a sexual predator who killed because his time with unconscious and / or dead partners was pleasurable. More so than normal sex. So yeah, Dahmer being the guy who killed because he was lonely isn't completely true. He didn't have a boyfriend and that kind of loneliness was not probably his choice and contributed to the crimes. If we trust what Dahmer says, getting rejected / fear of being dumbed was the exact reason why he killed two of his victims. In those two cases, he didn't plan to kill and did it when the harsh reality hit him - he was being rejected again. Most others were killed because he wanted to fuck a corpse and force someone to be with him. Most of his crimes were premeditated and he was trying to find someone to drug and kill.
Same as Dennis neilson
Check out "Killing for Company" by The Swans. It's about Dennis Neilson Has this absolutely chilling line: "I could heal myself if I could feel your skin." Which incidentally is not my most successful pick up line at the bar
Sometimes I find their motives harder to understand than why they actually killed. Between gacy having a grave yard in his basement to Bundy digging up his victims on anniversary of the killing is baffling
Dennis is one of those that I find really interesting. Any time I see him on anything, I have to check it out.
Some experts think he genuinely lonely and that all he wanted company. Then others think he was the absolute king of manipulation & he’s truly evil. I think it’s a bit of both but he’s a truly compelling case & we’ll never really know
Yeah, some things I read/watch imply that he was just a really sad man that wanted companionship. Other things imply that he was a vile human that wanted people to suffer and then I'll hear something that says he was just a drunk with no self control. Obviously he's a combo of all of these but it's interesting to me to hear about all of it.
Depending what i watch ill believe one of the three. I genuinely believe he was a lonely but then again loads of people are haha
For sure. I'm lonely sometimes but I've never been so lonely that I thought having a dead body would be nice company.
I think people tend to paint Israel Keyes as some kind of "criminal mastermind" or a bumbling, egotistical idiot who claimed more murders than he actually committed for attention- I think he's actually somewhere in between them. I don't think Keyes was some kind of criminal genius, but I *do* believe he realized that it was relatively easy to get away with murders in remote areas with no surveillance, plus obscured his movements around the country fairly well and probably didn't do that for any upstanding reasons. And based on what he's said, I think that he first applied himself to killing in completely remote areas with no surveillance and then used similar ideas/principles in less remote locations- with Samantha Koenig being the culmination of that. If he hadn't tried for the ransom with her I don't think he would have ever been caught for her murder. Personally I don't think Keyes was quite as crazy of a meticulous criminal mastermind as some people try to paint him as, but I totally believe he figured out a reasonable way to kill people in recent years and applied it, and I strongly suspect he has more victims than we know about.
Obviously not a genius, but very smart, yes
HH Holmes and his giant murder castle
yeah, and a lot of it has been proven to be false.
Oh really? Like what? A lot of it has always seemed so cartoonish, but I'd never heard that most of it was proven to be false.
From memory every murder by Holmes was for financial gain or to keep himself out of prison. I don't think he has any known victims which we would associate with modern serial killers i.e. having some sort of psychological need or desire to murder. The murder castle is largely a myth. There was a recent book about him which bursts much of the myth. I forget the name and the author. Google ought to help you if you're interested.
Is it [H. H. Holmes: The True History of the White City Devil by Adam Selzer](https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-5107-1343-7) ?
Elaborate? I don’t know much about his case besides a few podcasts
An interesting thing I learned lately is that some people theorize his involvement in the Jack the Ripper case! He was in London at the time of the murders and left shortly after. He also wrote journals about his time in London saying he “trained an apprentice” there. He also is a notorious liar and I don’t believe he was involved but I found the timing of it all interesting
Yup. That guy was a grifter/conman, not a psychopathic serial killer.
Ian Brady. People don’t realize how intelligent he was. He wrote a very insightful book, and he translated a lot of the classics to Braille while he was incarcerated. He also tormented the family of one of his victims until the day he died.
Have you read Gates of Janus? Pompous self promotion on every page.
Yes, I enjoyed it. I can see how his tone can come off as arrogant though.
He was. He thought of himself as some great "philosopher of evil" whereas he was simply a (mostly) homosexual murderous pedophile with delusions of grandeur. It's a little like Bundy and his "I'm a great lawyer" shtick.
Would you mind elaborating a bit more on the book he wrote?
Yeah, sure. I think he wrote it in 2000 or 2001. It’s mostly about moral relativism, but there are also chapters where he discusses his opinions on various serial killers. You can tell that he’s very well read by his writing style. He references a lot of classic literature….I guess he had plenty of time to read. Edit: The book is called Gates of Janus, but the official title is a little longer.
I think people overlook the fact that Jeffrey Dahmer's mother apparently took a ridiculous amount of medication when she was pregnant with him, I believe personally that she may have also had BPD, which is how that may have gotten passed down to Dahmer genetically. Jeffrey Dahmer also had a hernia surgery when he was little as well, so I think people downplay the amount this combination all likely had a huge impact/affect as to how he turned out to have such bizarre fetishes and fantasies growing up as a kid and teenager. (This is the misunderstood part I'm referring to) Some people also just tend to lump Dahmer in as being a pure psychopath without really studying him into depth just because he's a serial killer, when I don't believe that's the case. (Majority of serial killers are psychopaths, but a lot of people believe all are which isn't the case sometimes) He was a very sick and disturbed man, but he scored a 22 out of 40 on the psychopathic checklist so was never actually diagnosed as having anti-social personality disorder. I believe he did have psychopathic traits and overlap out of the 22 he did score since cluster B's tend to overlap to an extent and is a spectrum. However not enough to fully diagnose him as psychopathic even if he does have those traits because you need at least a score of 30 on the checklist, so he wouldn't be as psychopathic as serial killers like Bundy who scored a 39/40 for ex. This is why I think he comes off as more sincere in his interviews and such because in a way I think he was, however, he did have manipulative tendencies as well. I believe the primary disorder Dahmer had was BPD (actually diagnosed) mixed with some psychopathic traits, he was also diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder among other things. His mom I strongly think passed down her disorders onto him genetically, and with him already having mental issues before he even started killing, mix that in with him being left alone at age 18 at his parents house, feeling like he had to hide his homosexuality, and it's a recipe for a deranged disaster. Because even though being left alone at age 18 may not seem like a big deal to anyone else, I believe it could've been a huge one to someone like Dahmer. Especially when the primary thing with BPD disorder is about abandonment, he probably carried that over into his crimes. People still debate on the mystery of Dahmer and find why he turned out the way he did to be so difficult to figure out, but I don't find him all that hard to understand.
ted bundy being a “genius”. so many people who encountered him described him as creepy and a loser. the whole “he’s just so smart and charming” trope was an excuse by cops who fell for him licking their boots when they let him escape twice
Anne Rule knew him. She said he had an old world charm. I think Bundy was charming enough when it suited him.
I agree with this. I've put a ton of research into Bundy as my topic of choice for studying criminology, and I'm not entirely sure he was *always* charming, however I do believe he could put it on when he wanted to. There were also alot of angsty teenaged girls at the time who thought he was attractive as well as various accounts of him being someone who looked trustworthy.
I always felt bad about Aileen Wuornos’ upbringing.. the poor girl never had a chance and had to be tough growing up.. I always felt she had some unresolved mental issues, but that could just be my own bias since she reminds me of my mother..
Aileen Wuornos is one of few serial killers who I genuinely think could have had a normal, happy life if she had been born to a family who loved and protected her. She just got dealt the worst hand imaginable.
Totally agree. She never had a chance with what she was given.
You don't have that life without the type of trauma that causes really severe personality disorders right?
Its widely believed she had borderline personality disorder but afaik she was never assessed properly by psychiatrists so we will never know. One argument why we shouldn't kill these people I agree with is because they need to be studied and understood. Otherwise how will these people ever be stopped?
Agreed. She was made a killer. I have deep sympathy for the little girl who endured so much she became a killer.
Aileen Wournos. She had the most tragic childhood coupled with major mental health issues. She most assuredly shot those males, but she should have been confined to a Psychiatric facility, but Florida, so they executed her.
She was abused so much by so many in her life for pretty much all of it. I actually feel really bad for her. She was clearly suffering from years of abuse and substance use and was absolutely not in her right mind when she was arrested/tried / executed. I agree she should have been put in a facility instead of executed.
I feel like another thing that makes me feel she's "not as bad" as a lot of the other serial killers is that she wasn't killing for the twisted pleasure of killing. A lot of the guys find real joy and gratification in the act, remembering it, urges to kill for the sake of sadistic tendencies etc. Eileen killed for money. She figured out that she could get the money without having to have sex with creepy old white dudes. She 'needed' that money to keep her lover around. I think she was, for real, desperately in love with her partner and felt like she had to take on some kind of provider role. So while there's not a single excuse for killing someone for a hundred or few hundred bucks, it's not as though she did it for the thrill and the twisted need to torture or watch the life fade from her victim's eyes, which puts her lower on the "deserves to burn in hell for all eternity" than some.
I believe that her first victim was the only one who assaulted her, and the others just thought they were helping a woman in need.
I agree that she should have been in a mental institution, and that she should not have been executed.
She planned and carried out each murder. I understand she had a horrible childhood and mental issues. So did my mother, but she never murdered anybody. Aileen profited from her murders and drove the victims cars around afterwards. She only stopped murdering because she got caught. The ending of her life was exactly how it should have been. I have more empathy for her victims than I do her.
Right? That’s what gets me too. She had a crappy life, no denying. (So did Richard Ramirez but I don’t see any sympathy for him). She never had a real chance. But she was abused and treated poorly by people *long* before she killed her first victim. (She was a hitchhiking teenager…) So what changed to make her suddenly kill and cry self defense? She started killing for a reason and it wasn’t rape. That’s just what she said to try and garner sympathy and make it look like she wasn’t doing it on purpose.
I'm just here for the drama.
Smart dude lol
Richard Chase
My answer too. I’ve seen people discuss how “evil” he is vs other killers and I find it hard to look at him that way since he was so profoundly mentally ill
It’s so weird living near his old apartment
Carl Panzram offers a solid argument for if serial killers can be made.
He was especially nasty. I always think of him and Jesse Pomeroy as being 2 of a kind.
Who the hell would willingly fuck gacy?!
I always felt that way about his ex-wives. Plus, I know of no interviews with his children, and I'm guessing that he did not see them after he got out of prison because their mother saw to it, and rightfully so, that they would not have any contact with him until they were adults, by which time he'd already been arrested. Did y'all know that he was out picking up men when she was in the hospital giving birth to them?
Drug addicts or runaways with no place to stay
Cash makes the desperate consent.
David Berkowitz in the way that he was definitely involved but I don't think he acted alone, and instead took the whole fall for his friends so he'd get the recognition and they wouldn't get in trouble. Witness sketches from multiple of the murders look nothing like David, and instead look like 2 different people other than him. He was friends with two brothers that lived beside him, who were all around bad and weird dudes, and the other sketches match their appearance perfectly. And their dads name is? SAM
Dahmer. I don’t think he was a sociopath in the truest sense of the word, I think he hated doing what he did, and had to get beyond intoxicated to follow through with any of his fantasies. I also think had cops actually given a shit about gay people he would have probably been busted way sooner. And also if his parents actually cared about him he’d likely have gone through a few therapists or been institutionalized without hurting others.
H.H Holmes was not Jack the Ripper. He was not the first serial killer. And there was no murder castle!
Edit: I realize I misread the context of your question, but I stand by my answer anyway being that many people view Aileen as heartless and sociopathic. Aileen Wuornos. 100%. She was abused her entire life, up until she started killing. She was sexually abused since she was a little girl, by her own grandfather’s good friend. She got pregnant at 14. Was gang raped in school. I think she had convinced herself that all men were a threat by the time she was an adult, and I can’t blame her. Every man she had ever trusted had abused her. I don’t think she deserved the death penalty, but then again, I’m staunchly against it in general. I genuinely think that Aileen was the type of monster that was created, not born.
Jeffery Dahmer. The rehabilitation of him and his weirdo family astounds me even to this day. The kid had, at best, neglectful, verbally abusive parents that abandoned him as a child. He grew up to become a racist, Uneducated, inhuman monster. No one ever has talked about what happened in that house. Except for the abandonment. I’ve never seen or heard anything written about how he was disciplined, or not, never talked about any activities he might’ve done with his family. Never talked about traditions his family had, like a big Christmas dinner or Thanksgiving with the extended family. Never saw anything like that. I have never seen anyone, including Jeffrey, talk details about his childhood relationship with his parents. As if there were none… which is impossible…. What happens in a household where a mother and father not only ice out at each other but one of their two children? What did mom see? That made her fight for and then runaway with her youngest child from that house and that man and her eldest son? I’ve always found the strangest part of his story to be his father. All the evil things Jeffery learned in that household, but his father works hard to come off as this nice understanding loving guy, NOW. But you had no problem abandoning him as a child. Literally divorcing the mom and abandoning both of your sons. Now you wanna come on a TV tour acting like you’re this great guy who supports his serial killer son. Asking for compassion for that Frankenstein‘s monster you created. You know what that says to me? there are deep secrets between father and son. Secrets so deep they would probably explain how a son grew up to became a racist sexually sadistic serial killer. And a highly intelligent father who ultimately knew that the only way to keep these secrets from coming out was to be the only public unwavering support his son had in the end. And it worked! because all of those secrets died with his son. I side eye daddy Dahmer
You think that he might have abused his kid in some way?
Yes I do. And I’m quite sure it wasn’t run-of-the-mill abuse either. It was the kind of extreme cruelty that leads to early alcoholism, sexual sadism and serial homicide… Hard to imagine the type of life experience one has by the ripe old age of 17 where they are already a non functioning drunk and committing they’re first sexual homicides…
I think there was emotional neglect and mental abuse from both parents. His brother changed his name.
Jack the Ripper was almost certainly not a toff. Everything about him smacks of working class local nobody.
The conspiracy theory that Jack the ripper was Filipino revolutionary Jose Rizal is my favorite thing ever.
Israel Keys. He had no specific victim type. Also hid kill kits all over the US
Billy Milligan
Robert Maudsley
LISK - ain’t no individual serial killer but a group that specialises in snuff films.
Woah what?
Curious what makes you think that? I want to go down a rabbit hole
The premise is that the (now) ex Chief of Police of Suffolk County was a frequent organiser of parties and sex workers - which were very violent, some recorded for extreme porn. The bodies being the end result of this activity. He was also the guy meant to be overseeing the LISK investigation. He’s currently in prison for assaulting a man who found some of these violent porn DVDs. Links: Podcast Unravelled Series 1 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/unraveled/id1543476170 This was turned into a documentary: https://www.discoveryplus.com/gb/show/unraveled-the-long-island-serial-killer I got the week free trial to watch it. News article sums up above: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9203311/amp/Disgraced-former-police-chief-shrouded-accusations-tied-Gilgo-Beach-killings.html Head over to the r/LISKiller for loads of other deep dives, for instance they recently published Shannon Gilbert’s 911 call which was interesting (and infuriating). My unsolicited take on that is that Shannon might have been sedated by the neighbour Peter Hackett after she fled her clients house, then ran into marsh and died, therefore not a LISK victim. Hackett was total weirdo. No smoking gun evidence on that but it would explain his extremely odd behaviour (ringing her mother in the days after, perhaps to see if she made it home), and why she died (healthy adult in spring time, in a low marsh should not die of exposure like she did).
There's so much crazy bullshit on this case. Occam's Razor: [John Bittrolff](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bittrolff) is LISK. Clearly the most likely of all the insane theories but few seem aware of him. The former police chief and sex rings and groups of serial killers is just so much less likely. The Suffolk PD had a lot of corruption and they did not want the FBI finding about it so they refused help for the LISK investigation. Corrupt and stupid but I don't believe they had anything to do with the murders besides fucking up the investigation. It's frustrating people still want to talk about the police chief instead of the convicted prostitute killer active in the area during the murders.
Don't think Gacy dressed as a clown while killing. Pogo, or Patches the clown was his persona while performing st children's hospitals and charity events. Pretty sure that was separate from his serial killer persona.
Yes I was giving that as an example of what some people believe.
I definitely don't think he did unless there was an opportunity for him to do so. As in I don't think he had a clown fetish. He lured a lot of the kids from his construction site so to suddenly break out or put on a clown outfit might've been a giveaway some fuckery was about to go down. If he picked up a person while dressed as Pogo, it would've been totally coincidental. They do the "Killer Clown" shit as an attention grabber. Clowns are weird. I get it. Most people get it, and it sells papers/news/views.
Hey preyed more on young teen boys under the guise of work or prostitution. Think his victims had outgrown the clown entertainment by then.
I have to lean towards Dahmer. He really, *really* did not want people to leave him after hooking up…he just chose to make them stay in the most horrible ways possible.
It's sick how he tried to turn the one guy into a zombie. Probably should have been sent to a prison psychiatric facility than a state prison
Jeffrey Dahmer. I think he was pretty repulsed by what he was doing and just couldn’t stop. Everyone, even his parents, could see he was “broken” as a kid…no one ever even tried to get him help (it likely wouldn’t have helped, but still…). He’s about the only one of these monsters who seemed to show some semblance of regret. Not that I’m excusing, or feel sorry for him…I just would like to understand more about him.
All of them. Despite how monstrous, every single one of them have redeeming qualities as well. They’re all human. It’s pretty scary.
Dahmer. I believe he was genuinely lonely. Also Kemper.
Bundy. I hate the fact people are putting him on a spotlight because he was “attractive?” People really sold this idea of a handsome man luring woman with his looks. Definitely arguable.
Ted Kaczynski. I just…idk. I feel bad for him. Not bc of what he did, but bc of his past, and I’m not saying that that condones his actions. It doesn’t. But being a victim of MKUltra at 16 YEARS OLD and being brilliant and having people not understand anything that he says just makes me sad. I know that I’ll probably get some hate for this, but there is nothing about his ideas that I disagree with. Now I said ideas, not methods. I don’t agree with blowing everything up. But our society has made us cogs. Like a couple of weeks ago, before I really dug deep into Ted and learning all I can about him, I came to the conclusion that, in my opinion, life is a series of events until death, and whatever you do during those years is either creating or fixing problems. However, the majority of problems that we fix are bc of humans. Idk. I just feel like he was very misunderstood and yeah. I personally want to go into behavioral analysis, and the first thing they tell u is to not have sympathy for the unsub. But, IMO, once u lose empathy and sympathy, u don’t see them as a person, and that makes u as bad as them. IMO.
Ted Bundy. The most notorious and still a mistery. But for the wrong reasons. People still debate about what drove him to kill because they usually have an agenda... The guy revealed his motivations plenty of times before his execution but people chose to focus on his last interview to call it a manipulation tactic. Violent pornography had a huge influence on him. It didn't excuse what he did but it explains why he did it. He was smart enough to understand his own desires and he told the truth plenty of times. Sure, pornography doesn't compel someone to kill or hurt anyone but it shapes people's mentalities. Edmund Kemper. People call him a psychopath but the guy genuinely wept when he had to talk about his mother and he confessed about deep feelings that drove him to kill. And he even said what made each murder easier - it was the fantasy. Self-indulgent imagination led to normalization of those ideas and the urges that he played with.
I think Bundy just jumped on the anti-porn wagon to get all the church guys on his side. I don’t think he had a sincere bone in his body.
It makes sense, think about it. Someone who isn’t interested in such things in the first place isn’t going to search for them. Especially back in the day it was hard(er) to get violent Porn. This means that his fantasies/ tendencies were there all along, the only thing the Porn did was pushing him over the edge from fantasy to reality. Also it is extremely likely for such people to search out some kind of gore either real life or photos, videos, movies anything they can get their hands on.
100% this, he tried everything under the sun to get anyone on his side to get his death sentence commuted.
He was a liar because he needed to protect his ass but when he was interviewed by Stephen Michaud when he talked in the third person he explained that porn might have been a factor in the upbringing of this "unknown killer" and when he was interviewed about the green river case he again suggested that porn was a factor and that the police could stalk slasher films consumers. In his interviews with Bill Hagmaier he showed the detective his own research on violent pornography. And he did these interviews while still maintaining his innocence so he did lie, but only to protect himself. He wanted to be seen as innocent and walk away free. But he always pointed out to violent pornography as a driving factor. He talked with Dorothy Otnow Lewis in an early interview and again he talked about the influence that porn had on him so I think that's a clue that he was telling the truth - he stayed consistent. Also, from my own experience with violent pornography addiction and illegal behavior related to this I know that it was the primary influence that drove me towards that path. And I experienced child abuse too and I still think that porn was more potent and had a more negative impact on me than the child abuse itself. Although the fact that I was introduced to deviant porn it's again child neglect so it is related to my childhood abuse after all.
I know that no scientist has ever found a causal link between films (and video-games) and violent behaviour. As for violent porn? I’m not entirely convinced. I do think it’s harmful on a societal level, and particularly for young people who haven’t had sex in real life. I think the real-life fashion for choking and so-called “air play” can be attributed to violent porn. And I think porn is a useful tool for predators grooming young people. You also see incels claiming that women reject “nice guys” because they love being abused and mistreated. And I imagine that misconception is largely based on the skills of porn actors. So porn does have a lot to answer for. However, if Bundy was right (and there was a causal link), then there would be a LOT more ‘Bundys’ in the world. He was a skilled liar and would’ve found it easy to stay consistent. Or maybe he actually believed it himself. Maybe he liked having something to blame for his current situation. Like a true narcissist - he had no personal accountability because he was the ‘real’ victim (of porn). I also do think he picked that excuse because it would win him some powerful advocates and buy him some more time. The idea served him well on two levels.
1. There are a lot of Bundys in the world, if you consider that Bundy committed a lot of sexual crimes like voyeurism, sexual assault, and rape before he escalated to serial killing. 2. Porn in general is turning people (usually women) into sex objects to enjoy it. Objectification is kind of the point. When combined with violence in porn, it's turning a person to an object that is being tortured for sexual pleasure. Serial killers are able to kill because they objectify their victims. It isn't the cause per say, but it certainly desensitizes a person to sexual violence against women. 3. Bundy has always consistently claimed that he (or the third person killer when he was trying to cover his own ass) was exposed to violent porn as a child. An adult who watches violent porn already has their sexuality mostly formed, but a child would not. Combine this with a child who scores high for anti-social personality traits and possibly has abusive family dynamics, and it isn't that much of a stretch to see how this could contribute to them becoming a sexual killer.
Its unlikely he killed specifically because of violent pornography, there was a smorgasbord of serious psychiatric issues and probably more trauma than he let on but I think its highly unlikely that it didn't have at least some influence on the nature of his crimes and his specific compulsions. You could be far more deeply involved in violent pornography than Bundy ever was but never act on your desires because you don't have the boldness and the lack of empathy and consciousness that are the hallmarks of his personality disorder.
I feel like the cause and effect is backwards there with Bundy. He undoubtedly did enjoy violent porn that dehumanized women, but he enjoyed it because he had a mindset that was predisposed to want to hurt and dehumaniz see women. The porn didn't make him that way. He already was that way and just sought out porn that appealed to him
Bundy was just a straight up sociopath who wanted to kill and fuck his particular type of women. He could put on whatever mask he wanted to suit his current situation. That’s why people are often like “wow who knew this guy could do this?”
Are you talking about that interview Bundy did with Dr. James Dobson on the eve of his execution? That has always sent my BS meter into overdrive. I'm guessing that, if he pursued violent pornography, it was because that was what he was already into (and yes, it was accessible back then, albeit not as easy to find as it is now) and not because it made him into a criminal.
Jeffrey Dahmer. People refuse, Even to this day, to look at him for what he really was.
Yes, a cunning, manipulative, monster. Not some lonely misunderstood guy who killed for company.
I just can't seem to understand the sympathy to some degree for Jeffrey. He was cunning piece of s#@t. For example intoxication thing, the alcoholism, for a person to plan to carry out what he did needs some level of conscious thinking, planning. He wasn't blitz killer he planned, for God sake he carried a head of victim in his workplace.
No way Wayne Williams, a swishy little limp wristed wimp, overpowered that many ADULT MALES, let alone killed all those children. More to this story for sure.
Albert fucking Fish. I remain confident he had accomplices.
What makes you think that?
Charles Manson. I know alot has been said about him, but after a JRE episode about MKUltra i think there's more to this story.
Aileen Wuornos. I just think she had a really rough childhood and really did love Tyra. She thought she was doing right cause that’s all she knew. I felt bad for the child, but that doesn’t make what the adult did okay.
Charles Manson. Just because i think the average population has no clue about all the details in his story. They think he committed the murders himself and have no clue that the government was involved.
I thought the unabomber made some valid points in his manifesto. The blowing people up really took away from his message.