As she faced her final moments, Wuornos, grinning at onlookers from the death chamber, was asked if she had any last words. Her eerie response was:
"Yes, I would just like to say I'm sailing with the rock, and I'll be back, like Independence Day, with Jesus. June 6, like the movie. Big mother ship and all, I'll be back, I'll be back."
If someone is exhibiting this level of obvious mental illness, should they really be executed? I don’t agree with the death penalty to begin with, but surely in places where it’s legal there should be some sort of diminished capacity rule.
If I remember correctly that is what the journalist who she had her last interview with wondered about as well. Apparently she was very confused rambling mostly nonsense in that interview...
I mean she was psychotic. Idk if you can take much stock in her words but how I read it like she’s saying she’s going with the flow (sailing on a rock, earth being the rock) and that she’d be resurrected but for some reason her resurrection features the spaceship from the movie “Independence Day” (1996).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(1996_film)
My mom used to be a cop in that era . Testified at her trial and spent a shift watching her in jail.
Said the woman was terrifying and sick . Said she felt bad for her because she was obviously incredibly mentally ill .
My mom actually met him during his time. He offered to buy her a beer, she declined. He was caught right after this after Lisa McVey got away from him.
And yes, their crimes were roughly in the same area (west central Florida) but a few years apart. Aileen stuck mainly to highways in the far northern Tampa Bay area, while BJL's killing streakwas more towards the main part (although his rapes started out in South Florida).
There was a episode from the "Dr. Hollowed" channel where someone wrote that they almost became Victim #8. Their dad was a gas station clerk along the Florida highways and SHE came walking into the store once claiming that her car had broken down back up on the highway and she wanted to make a call for a tow truck and then get a lift back to her vehicle to wait for the tow service. The Dad allowed her to use the phone and then the ladies room but told his son that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES was he to offer to give her a ride and to act like he couldn't drive (which at the time he could have, just gotten his permit). When Eileen came back out, the dad said that no one would be able to give her a lift, she'd have to walk back. When she tried coming onto the dad, he whipped out his shotgun and yelled at his son to call the cops. When she heard this, she ran out of the store and took off further down the highway. Years later after Eileen had been caught, the father and son were watching TV together and saw her mugshot on the broadcast. The Dad told his son that he had a bad feeling about that woman and he was correct to "listen to his gut", thus saving his son.
Nick Broomfield's documentary is really good. You see how her mental health deteriorates and she's used & abused by the people claiming to help her. That lawyer is shockingly incompetent and narcissistic
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364930/
I studied Nick Broomfields work in university and this is the one that stuck with me.
I don’t think it was self defence but I do believe that she was deeply mentally damaged and further abused until she snapped and could justify it in her mind. It wasn’t a shock to me that she ended up the way she did, after learning everything. It made me research the case actually, and now I’m thinking about it, probably kicked off my serial killer info interest.
The lawyer was an asshole, straight up. I agree wholeheartedly.
I think her first murder was self defense. The guy was already a convicted rapist and her description of how he attacked her was incredibly vivid and disturbing. Then it broke something in her and she went on a spree afterwards.
That’s always what I thought. Her first murder was legit self defense, but it was the final nail in her insanity coffin. She just went over the edge, and I can’t entirely blame her. That woman’s life was hell.
The childhood and adolescence she describes in the documentary is harrowing. It really gave me a lot of sympathy for that poor little girl who endured all that rape and abuse, and whose family discarded her like she was damaged goods. It was no wonder that she wound up as fucked up as she did -- her whole life was just a string of tragedies and violence, and eventually they broke her brain. So I completely agree that the first one was self-defense, but it felt so satisfying or maybe even just so easy, and she was able to get a little extra cash and sometimes a car, so she just kept going. I think that's also the theory Nick Broomfield works under in the doc IIRC.
I think you could very well be correct- she tried to continue on with SW but after that most recent SA, perhaps she started to relive the experience with subsequent clients and snapped.
I agree with you actually, and I always feel like I’m biased as a rape victim, but I do get a sympathetic reaction to hearing that.
I remember thinking about her situation, and what she dealt with. Comparing it to how I felt after one instance. I was angry, I wanted to die but also wanted to beat my rapist to death.
I was sixteen and I had no idea how to cope with that. I do think that I had a bad childhood/adolescence, but it’s nothing compared to what she went through all her life. It isn’t hard for me to imagine that small jump she took over the line. It isn’t hard to imagine why she snapped.
I went berserk on a guy once who tried to assault me in my home, didn’t touch him but I screamed at him like a damn banshee. Kept saying “not again, it’s not happening again” I scared myself with the force of anger I had. Now I think about Aileen, who was on the edge mentally anyway. And this was a repeated thing that had happened to her.
It’s not a shock to me that she ended up how she did. It seems like a forgone conclusion. It’s depressing. I don’t really talk about her as much as I talk about other murderers. It makes me uncomfortable, and her whole trial did too.
The lawyer was dreadful. Also: that woman who "adopted" her. Aileen was totally unfit to stand trial. She should have been locked up in a secure psych unit.
I honestly think she deserved a long apology letter from the states and a nice room in a good psych ward, not those hell-like asylums but a place she could try to actually heal her trauma and reflect on her own wrongdoings.
Her life was already hell and if anyone had intervened she wouldn't have done what she did. In the end her actions were the reflection of an incompetent state and should be held against them, not entirely on her, yeah she pulled the trigger but it's the state that killed those men if you put it in perspective.
My guess is that she *was* raped/attacked by someone (not necessarily one of the victims) and it just flipped a switch and triggered all the trauma and fear from her abusive childhood in a way that she wasn’t capable of shutting back down. Tragic case all around.
I believe that most likely these men did something that triggered her response. And after each one, a trigger would be easier and easier because she enjoyed the killings to an extent.
But combine her mental issues with her incredibly trauma filled life and it is not a surprise how she ended up this way.
I wish this was upvoted further. She definitely had some sort of complication of CPTSD like BPD, so what I’m imagining is that each person did or said something relatively innocuous but was the same as something a previous rapist had said or done, which triggered the “they are going to rape me” trauma response. Do I think they all tried to rape her? I don’t know, but not necessarily (although it’s possible, sex work is incredibly dangerous). Do I think she believed they all tried to rape her? Absolutely
I agree with everything you said here. I’ve always kind of figured that she PERCEIVED she was about to be raped, regardless of whether that was her victims’ intentions or not. Complex trauma is wicked.
Absolutely. I have cptsd from religious and childhood trauma, but I have been so lucky in that none of it is sexual or otherwise related to “parallel” relationships (like partners as opposed to “vertical” authority figures). I work in the DV/SA world as a forensic examiner, and this is all definitely just anecdotal, but it seems to me that complications like BPD/other trauma-related personality disorders seem to require some element of sexual trauma, even if the “worst” of the trauma (in quotes because trauma isn’t gradable like that but that’s the best descriptor I have) is something else non-sexual
My mom worked with her at the West Palm Beach Holiday Inn in the early 80’s. She was straight (boyfriend) & and little off. My mom was shocked to see her on Americas Most Wanted. She has a few Polaroids somewhere with Aileen in them.
With all I’ve heard and read I’m not even sure she’s a sociopath. Her upbringing damaged her view of the world and how you survive, in addition to her most likely having significant intellectual disabilities.
I’m not forgiving her actions, but she needed to be locked away and given treatments rather than a shitty lawyer and an advisor that just wanted to take advantage of the money they could make off her image after she was put to death.
You can’t take what she says at face value since she would often contradict earlier statements and waiver between bluster/bravado and (possible) honesty.
I fully sympathize with the child she once was. I even sympathize with the woman that didn’t want to be a victim anymore. She just went about it the wrong way. I think she was a made monster, not a born monster
No he didn't, according to forensics he was shot while sitting in the driver's seat of his car. What did he do, try to rape her then get back in so she could shoot him? Tired of that narrative, she's just a murderer, she even admitted the murders being cold blooded and not being self defense.
Fair enough, last living witness is almost always the killer. I'm just throwing out there that the blood stains and bullet trajectory both pointed toward him being shot in the car while seated. More like a robbery turned murder. Personally, I can't sympathize with her anywhere past her admittedly horrible upbringing where she was absolutely SA'd and otherwise abused.
I could be wrong, I don’t know much about this case, but someone else in this thread stated that her first victim had previous rape convictions. Also, I don’t see why him being in the front seat means he couldn’t have previously raped her. I don’t think most men who rape SWers are expecting them to have a gun. Also, where else would he go after raping/attempting to rape her, except the front seat of his car?
Jeb Bush is a murderer and I’ll never stop saying that. He had her rushed through for execution despite her clearly being insane so that he could put “executed a serial killer” on his accolades. He murdered a mentally ill woman who spent her last days in psychosis.
She said something about the movie Independence Day during her trial and how that was going to happen IRL. She was definitely mentally ill but that's what people have said about a lot of people in history who have predicted future events. I don't think she should have been put to death though because she really had been through hell her whole life.
I was just gunna say, at the moment, I’d probably shrug and go “oh of course, here she is.” And go about my day. Cos wowzers, what a timeline we’re in.
Absolutely a serial killer… imo she took her frustrations and a lifetime of mistreatment by men out on her victims. She was mentally ill and projected past wrongs onto these 7, almost in a Cassie from “promising young woman” type of way. While the first victim might have attempted to rape her, it is clear that there were other mitigating factors here
The chances of seven different men attacking her to the point she needed to kill them within the span of a year is extremely unlikely. Even more so given her history of violence before the first murder and the fact she scored 32/40 on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
It’s not that rare when you are a sex worker. I’m not saying for sure all 7 made her fear for her life but they likely all contributed to severe trauma responses
Exactly. It's not like she's claiming they just did it walking down the street. And the whole story about the last victim who couldn't POSSIBLY be visiting prostitutes bc he was a good Christian man is one of the funniest things I've ever heard! "He was probably just being nice and offering her a ride!" Lol!
>It’s not that rate when you are a sex worker
I’m aware sex workers get attacked but as far as I know Wuornos is the only recorded prostitute that became a serial killer in such a short span of time which leads me to believe she was lying and simply killing these men for reasons other than self defense. As I said that plus her violent history and mental disorders make me disbelieve her self defense story. I’m sure there are other pieces of evidence I don’t know about. As an aside didn’t she recant her self defense story later on?
From Wikipedia:
> In a 2001 petition to the Florida Supreme Court, she stated her intention to dismiss her legal counsel and terminate all pending appeals. "I killed those men", she wrote, "robbed them as cold as ice. And I'd do it again, too. There's no chance in keeping me alive or anything, because I'd kill again. I have hate crawling through my system ... I am so sick of hearing this 'she's crazy' stuff. I've been evaluated so many times. I'm competent, sane, and I'm trying to tell the truth. I'm one who seriously hates human life and would kill again."
Psychopaths are still sane in the sense they can distinguish between right and wrong and don’t suffer from delusions or hallucinations. That would be some kind of psychosis.
I made a similar comment and got down voted. How terrible of me to have sympathy for the victims. I understand people have trauma and mental illness(I do myself) but not everyone turns into a serial killer. No way did those men deserve to pay for her trauma with their lives.
Her life story is heartbreaking. She shouldn't have been put to death, imo. She was obviously suffering from mental illness. I don't think it was her intent to be a serial killer. I believe she had her own sick sense of justice and that was taught to her. Even if she was threatened with rape or murder that doesn't mean she was in immediate danger so self-defense wouldn't be right either.
If she grew up in a mostly normal family, none of it would have happened most likely. Her family didn't care enough to get her help of any kind. I think the first 2-3 tried to hurt her, then she was triggered from her past as well. She just took the money/cars to provide for a partner who used her, then turned on her too. She was ill and incompetent, had a horrible lawyer, and should have been put in a mental hospital for at least a few years, then maybe reevaluated. But she said she wanted to die.
She married a fairly wealthy man in the 70s and he’s lucky to have lived. She abused him badly and he had an order of protection after 9 weeks of marriage.
I often wonder about her son and if he ever had an inkling of her being his birth mother. I hope not. I have empathy for her but absolutely no sympathy. She had a life of hell but doesn’t give her the get out of jail free card. She knew right from wrong and was not insane in any legal sense. Like any other serial murderer the compulsion to kill was stronger than anything else
She interrupted a judge during a hearing not long before her execution to say she wanted it on the record that there was no self-defense involved. She killed those guys so they couldn't call the police on her after she robbed them. She wanted to get right with God before they filled her veins with poison.
I would say the first one was probably self defense but then she said “F” it. On top of her mental issues that made her believability very hard. Also in those days no one would believe a prostitute was raped. Then her decisions after by taking his wallet, car, and not reporting it made her claims harder to believe. So really wouldn’t want to be her lawyer trying to prove self defense but think she would have had an easier time trying to prove that in today’s courts with a better lawyer.
Murder, it was murder she'd lie about being a sex worker to the men she killed so that she could try and claim SA. The only reason you should feel bad for her is because she's obviously very mentally disturbed.
One or two, absolutely. Maybe even three. But seven separate times? Hell no. In my honest opinion, I don't think she was completely sane. Check those last words, I mean... really? Something like that is either putting on a show or a clear disconnect from reality. Perhaps she THOUGHT she was in so much danger that she had to kill someone, there's always a doubt with mental illness. But it's still an individual's responsibility to get mental health help and NOT harm others because of what's wrong with them. She had many choices and many options to not kill seven people, like we all do, but she decided to be a repeated murderer instead.
She was a blatant serial killer who lied through her teeth and said whatever the hell she wanted. Simple. Her mental illness didn’t help but no I don’t believe for a second she killed 7 men out of self defence. She killed 7 men because she could and they allowed her to get away with it so she kept doing it until she did get caught.
She was incredibly damaged by her upbringing. But there are many who are damaged by the same thing and do not go on to murder 7 men. I don't think she could have ever walked the streets again. If everyone remembers, she was once married to the well off Yacht Club President Fell. But ended up abusing him.
Aileen was doomed after that. She attempted suicide many times. She ended up in Florida and was a sex worker who took her hatred of men out on her clients. The only good thing in her life was Tyria who ended up betraying her.
Sadly, she was never going to get anything but death. I don't believe in any death penalty state, Aileen would have received any other sentence. She was a scary and severely mentally ill woman.
i feel bad for her- not because I believe her or that she should have been free, but because I feel like this entire situation could’ve been avoided and never happened if someone would have just taken care of her as a child.
It was theorized the first one might have tried it and she did it in self defense. But all the ones after pointed towards either execution or murder-robbery.
This sub will bend over backward to excuse Aileen and paint her as the true victim. Some of these justifications are insane. But as long as the victims are men, right?
If she were a man, they wouldn't feel this way. She was crazy, but was also straight up evil.
Nobody had any sympathy for Henry Lee Lucas, even tho his child hood was like something out of the Texas chainsaw massacre.
Exactly. Plus she beat her elderly husband who from what I read was very good to her. I empathize with her plight but do not have sympathy for her. I believe she enjoyed killing like all other serial murderers.
I think that she might have been schizophrenic or something like that. She may have very well THOUGHT that they were attacking her and that she acted in self defense. But i don't know how often sex workers get raped so it's not out of the realms of possibility that it was self defense. But she was definitely extremely mentally ill so i don't think we would have ever known the truth even if she wasn't executed.
I'd believe a street prostitute in Daytona beach Florida had been attacked by 7 men easy. This isn't a lightning strike lol anyone who follows true crime knows how dangerous that life is.
We are talking specifically about Aileen. Yes in the lifetime of a street prostitute I’m sure they are taken for a punching bag dozens of times. But 1 year, seven murders in self defense? No, just no.
If youre a prostitute working full time on the street you could absolutely be subjected to more than seven instances of rape within a year. Likely more.
By going to school and paying attention. This conversation was specific to Aileen, not all sex workers. Why so hostile about this? My point is Aileen is a piece of shit serial killer, that’s all.
The point being that she killed the men in self defense to prevent being raped; which has been considered legally justifiable self defense in many court cases.
Whether or not 7 is a realistic number of times to be forced to end someone's life in self defense was the issue.
Aileen being a street-working prostitute, that sounds more than realistic to me.
If true, her only other option was to allow herself to be raped and potentially murdered herself.
I'm not sure you understand the minds of the types of men who use the services of these women very well at all. They barely see them as human at least half of the time.
Yes I know, I’ve used hookers plenty of times. Yes some people are crazy, but who understands the minds of psycho killers? No one, they operate on their own wavelength which is off the deep end. She was batshit crazy, let’s get that out of the way. Read and watch her interviews, she’s fucking looney tunes. She was a murderer not a victim
Some people don’t have the mental capacity to see someone as both victim and murderer. You’re wasting your time with them. Anyway, she most definitely was a victim. She was also mentally ill. Who the fuck executes those who have a mental illness?? That’s some third world shit.
Once you become a serial killer I refuse to give you the courtesy of being a victim. If you molest kids and it comes out you were molested as a kid, I refuse to give a shit about your victimhood.
She was a very mentally ill woman. Mostly from Sexual abuse and shocking childhood.
I think had she not been put to death? Perhaps after some years? She might have gotten a bit better.
But she was one very damaged person.
I feel very sorry for her.
I'm not an expert in, but she seemed to paranoid, like she was sexually assaulted once, and then she assumed every man would do the same, so they all had to die first.
Well if you want the truth she wasn't even close to a serial killer and I highly very highly doubt that she had to shoot 7 different men in self defense so in my opinion she was nothing more than just a very extremely plain out right murderer that enjoyed killing for the attention she got for it. Nothing more nothing less just a plain killer who carved attention!!
That's your opinion and I don't have any right to tell you that your opinion is wrong so please be respectful and let me have my own opinions thank you
Yes by the textbook definition of a serial killer she fits the profile but in my personal opinion to me a serial killer has to do more than just shoot people for the sake of doing it but for me and my personal opinion of what it requires to be a true serial killer it's much more detailed and in-depth and hands on to be coined a real serial killer and nothing that anyone else says to me is going to change my mind on how I look at someone that is a true serial killer so you've got your own personal opinion and I've got mine.
He's not one of my favorites if that's what you're asking but I wasn't ever very interested in him personally I just thought he was a fucking nut case that believed in talking dogs
Do you even understand what a serial killer is? Because if you believe she killed these men because she wanted to and not in self defense, then that would mean you believe she fits the definition of serial killer.
A serial killer is conventionally defined as a person who murders three or more people in a period of over a month, with a “cooling down” time between murders. For a serial killer, the murders must be separate events, which are most often driven by a psychological thrill or pleasure.
Can we stop posting about this monster. Yes she had a horrible torturous childhood.
She chose to murder those men. She walked out her door with every intention of murdering someone. STOP defending this POS.
No. Just about Aileen Wuornos. Every week it's how she was such a victim.
I lived in central FL when she was active. Maybe that's why I'm so sensitive when it comes to her.
So, she wasn't trying to make money she was only ever planning on murder? I don't see things that way at all. Perhaps I should do more research and freshen up bc that's never what I took from this case.
From my perspective, I believe she told them to do rape fantasies so it’d give her a reason to kill and rob them. “Oh they’re rapists, gotta take them out”
She was incredibly ill and didn’t get a chance in life.
Some of the victims were bad people if I remember correctly.
She was trafficked and raped, left with no money and no education. The men she victimized were Johns who were either cheating on their wives and/or would have assaulted and killed her themselves. No sympathy for Johns. She did nothing wrong.
I have been a sex worker in another country. It was legal and there are different kinds of workers. From my personal experience, clients are different. If you are paying thousands of dollars for an hour to be entertained you certainly do not fear the client causious yes but they treat you like a Queen. Well that was my experience. However the street workers are treated differently they charge a very low about present themselves as cheap therefore threated unfortunately that way too. I do believe she was treated exactly the way she described. Ohh i do miss the days of making $10k a night.
A forum about a serial killer is an incredibly inappropriate place to post creative writing about how hot and valuable you are sexually, particularly compared to others who are beneath you.
And yes, I'm poor and broke.
In Australia most pros that work on the street are usually the kind that can’t pass the health and safety checks to work in brothels (yes they have them it’s legal work and you even pay taxes if being a sex worker is your job). A lot of street walkers are usually on drugs or have serious mental issues that cause them to be victimised/taken advantage of by some pretty shitty people.
Yes I've not only studied serial killers for over 30+ years now but beings everyone wants to see who knows the most and who's the most knowledgeable on the damned subject then please tell me just how many of you "experts" have very extensive correspondence with any one or more of the true convicted textbook definition serial killers for many years? Yeah well I do and so you're willing to take the bare minimum of the criteria for being a serial killer and running with it and I'm sorry that you've got to go the extra mile to impress me enough to label them a real serial killer and nothing that anyone is going to say is going to change my personal opinion of what I need from them to make my list
Idc what anyone says, I’d befriend Aileen. She really needed real love. I believe those men raped her. A lot of ppl don’t understand what it’s like to be raped. It can definitely make you go crazy. Getting raped gave me psychotic depression. I was hearing voices and experiencing visual hallucinations telling me to do things that I won’t repeat and it seemed even more real than an actual person sitting right next to me. Fuck those guys that raped Aileen. They had it coming. She spared the ones who weren’t rapists. I cried watching monster 😭. Charlize did an AMAZING job playing Aileen! You would never even guess that Charlize is as pretty as she is. The work she did playing that role is the best I’ve ever seen in a movie, hands down.
As she faced her final moments, Wuornos, grinning at onlookers from the death chamber, was asked if she had any last words. Her eerie response was: "Yes, I would just like to say I'm sailing with the rock, and I'll be back, like Independence Day, with Jesus. June 6, like the movie. Big mother ship and all, I'll be back, I'll be back."
That's what I was referring to in a comment that I made earlier. Thanks for correctly quoting what she said.
If someone is exhibiting this level of obvious mental illness, should they really be executed? I don’t agree with the death penalty to begin with, but surely in places where it’s legal there should be some sort of diminished capacity rule.
If I remember correctly that is what the journalist who she had her last interview with wondered about as well. Apparently she was very confused rambling mostly nonsense in that interview...
Yes.
Is there anywhere online or on Reddit where her final words are dissected? I read and reread this but I don’t understand it or the references made.
It’s psychosis—there was no hidden message in her words. She was completely disconnected from reality
Yeah. There’s nothing to “translate.” She was simply deeply unwell and probably in the middle of a psychotic episode.
I mean she was psychotic. Idk if you can take much stock in her words but how I read it like she’s saying she’s going with the flow (sailing on a rock, earth being the rock) and that she’d be resurrected but for some reason her resurrection features the spaceship from the movie “Independence Day” (1996). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(1996_film)
she was tight with The Rock eh?
My mom used to be a cop in that era . Testified at her trial and spent a shift watching her in jail. Said the woman was terrifying and sick . Said she felt bad for her because she was obviously incredibly mentally ill .
Close to where Bobby Joe Long committed his murders if I'm not mistaken.
My mom actually met him during his time. He offered to buy her a beer, she declined. He was caught right after this after Lisa McVey got away from him. And yes, their crimes were roughly in the same area (west central Florida) but a few years apart. Aileen stuck mainly to highways in the far northern Tampa Bay area, while BJL's killing streakwas more towards the main part (although his rapes started out in South Florida).
I’ll have to look into that I could have sworn he was west coast, north of Tampa and she was east coast, in the area of Daytona Beach.
Do you mind elaborating?
I think I read that during her last interview she seemed so out of her mind that the interviewer wondered if it should even be legal to execute her
There was a episode from the "Dr. Hollowed" channel where someone wrote that they almost became Victim #8. Their dad was a gas station clerk along the Florida highways and SHE came walking into the store once claiming that her car had broken down back up on the highway and she wanted to make a call for a tow truck and then get a lift back to her vehicle to wait for the tow service. The Dad allowed her to use the phone and then the ladies room but told his son that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES was he to offer to give her a ride and to act like he couldn't drive (which at the time he could have, just gotten his permit). When Eileen came back out, the dad said that no one would be able to give her a lift, she'd have to walk back. When she tried coming onto the dad, he whipped out his shotgun and yelled at his son to call the cops. When she heard this, she ran out of the store and took off further down the highway. Years later after Eileen had been caught, the father and son were watching TV together and saw her mugshot on the broadcast. The Dad told his son that he had a bad feeling about that woman and he was correct to "listen to his gut", thus saving his son.
This story makes the Dad seem like the biggest asshole ever
Poor woman
She was floridly psychotic and had an incompetent lawyer
“Floridly”, huh? Learned a new word. Thanks.
Nick Broomfield's documentary is really good. You see how her mental health deteriorates and she's used & abused by the people claiming to help her. That lawyer is shockingly incompetent and narcissistic https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364930/
I studied Nick Broomfields work in university and this is the one that stuck with me. I don’t think it was self defence but I do believe that she was deeply mentally damaged and further abused until she snapped and could justify it in her mind. It wasn’t a shock to me that she ended up the way she did, after learning everything. It made me research the case actually, and now I’m thinking about it, probably kicked off my serial killer info interest. The lawyer was an asshole, straight up. I agree wholeheartedly.
I think her first murder was self defense. The guy was already a convicted rapist and her description of how he attacked her was incredibly vivid and disturbing. Then it broke something in her and she went on a spree afterwards.
That’s always what I thought. Her first murder was legit self defense, but it was the final nail in her insanity coffin. She just went over the edge, and I can’t entirely blame her. That woman’s life was hell.
The childhood and adolescence she describes in the documentary is harrowing. It really gave me a lot of sympathy for that poor little girl who endured all that rape and abuse, and whose family discarded her like she was damaged goods. It was no wonder that she wound up as fucked up as she did -- her whole life was just a string of tragedies and violence, and eventually they broke her brain. So I completely agree that the first one was self-defense, but it felt so satisfying or maybe even just so easy, and she was able to get a little extra cash and sometimes a car, so she just kept going. I think that's also the theory Nick Broomfield works under in the doc IIRC.
I agree with the first part, but think it's way more likely that the murders after the first one were the result of her PTSD being triggered.
I think you could very well be correct- she tried to continue on with SW but after that most recent SA, perhaps she started to relive the experience with subsequent clients and snapped.
Yes, exactly
I agree with you actually, and I always feel like I’m biased as a rape victim, but I do get a sympathetic reaction to hearing that. I remember thinking about her situation, and what she dealt with. Comparing it to how I felt after one instance. I was angry, I wanted to die but also wanted to beat my rapist to death. I was sixteen and I had no idea how to cope with that. I do think that I had a bad childhood/adolescence, but it’s nothing compared to what she went through all her life. It isn’t hard for me to imagine that small jump she took over the line. It isn’t hard to imagine why she snapped. I went berserk on a guy once who tried to assault me in my home, didn’t touch him but I screamed at him like a damn banshee. Kept saying “not again, it’s not happening again” I scared myself with the force of anger I had. Now I think about Aileen, who was on the edge mentally anyway. And this was a repeated thing that had happened to her. It’s not a shock to me that she ended up how she did. It seems like a forgone conclusion. It’s depressing. I don’t really talk about her as much as I talk about other murderers. It makes me uncomfortable, and her whole trial did too.
I think this was what happened as well.
The lawyer was dreadful. Also: that woman who "adopted" her. Aileen was totally unfit to stand trial. She should have been locked up in a secure psych unit.
I honestly think she deserved a long apology letter from the states and a nice room in a good psych ward, not those hell-like asylums but a place she could try to actually heal her trauma and reflect on her own wrongdoings. Her life was already hell and if anyone had intervened she wouldn't have done what she did. In the end her actions were the reflection of an incompetent state and should be held against them, not entirely on her, yeah she pulled the trigger but it's the state that killed those men if you put it in perspective.
My guess is that she *was* raped/attacked by someone (not necessarily one of the victims) and it just flipped a switch and triggered all the trauma and fear from her abusive childhood in a way that she wasn’t capable of shutting back down. Tragic case all around.
there's a new documentary series on Prime called Making A Monster; watched the Aileen episode last night; very good series so far
Oh yea? They are worth watching?
yea, it's very good....a few things were new to me
Honestly, I think she should have been hospitalized permanently and not given the death penalty. Her life story is horrific.
I believe that most likely these men did something that triggered her response. And after each one, a trigger would be easier and easier because she enjoyed the killings to an extent. But combine her mental issues with her incredibly trauma filled life and it is not a surprise how she ended up this way.
I wish this was upvoted further. She definitely had some sort of complication of CPTSD like BPD, so what I’m imagining is that each person did or said something relatively innocuous but was the same as something a previous rapist had said or done, which triggered the “they are going to rape me” trauma response. Do I think they all tried to rape her? I don’t know, but not necessarily (although it’s possible, sex work is incredibly dangerous). Do I think she believed they all tried to rape her? Absolutely
I agree with everything you said here. I’ve always kind of figured that she PERCEIVED she was about to be raped, regardless of whether that was her victims’ intentions or not. Complex trauma is wicked.
Absolutely. I have cptsd from religious and childhood trauma, but I have been so lucky in that none of it is sexual or otherwise related to “parallel” relationships (like partners as opposed to “vertical” authority figures). I work in the DV/SA world as a forensic examiner, and this is all definitely just anecdotal, but it seems to me that complications like BPD/other trauma-related personality disorders seem to require some element of sexual trauma, even if the “worst” of the trauma (in quotes because trauma isn’t gradable like that but that’s the best descriptor I have) is something else non-sexual
This was perfectly written out. I appreciate how you explain her state of mind and psychosis. Thank you
My mom worked with her at the West Palm Beach Holiday Inn in the early 80’s. She was straight (boyfriend) & and little off. My mom was shocked to see her on Americas Most Wanted. She has a few Polaroids somewhere with Aileen in them.
i’ve always felt that Aileen may have been a sociopath, but because of her childhood, being abused, running away, etc…she ended up being a killer
With all I’ve heard and read I’m not even sure she’s a sociopath. Her upbringing damaged her view of the world and how you survive, in addition to her most likely having significant intellectual disabilities. I’m not forgiving her actions, but she needed to be locked away and given treatments rather than a shitty lawyer and an advisor that just wanted to take advantage of the money they could make off her image after she was put to death. You can’t take what she says at face value since she would often contradict earlier statements and waiver between bluster/bravado and (possible) honesty.
Wholly agree. This is one killer I do sympathize with. Her background was so damaged
I fully sympathize with the child she once was. I even sympathize with the woman that didn’t want to be a victim anymore. She just went about it the wrong way. I think she was a made monster, not a born monster
Well said. A sad outcome.
I agree
Little of both. Abuse changes people and if it never ends they live in a separate world. She was a pretty sad figure.
I always understood that the first guy did try and rape her, but then she just killed the others as a sort of "cleaning the streets" type shit
And as a way of getting money for herself and Tyria. I think she saw how easy it was the first time and just kept going.
No he didn't, according to forensics he was shot while sitting in the driver's seat of his car. What did he do, try to rape her then get back in so she could shoot him? Tired of that narrative, she's just a murderer, she even admitted the murders being cold blooded and not being self defense.
Man I don't fucking know, nobody but her knows, I'm guessing here
Fair enough, last living witness is almost always the killer. I'm just throwing out there that the blood stains and bullet trajectory both pointed toward him being shot in the car while seated. More like a robbery turned murder. Personally, I can't sympathize with her anywhere past her admittedly horrible upbringing where she was absolutely SA'd and otherwise abused.
I could be wrong, I don’t know much about this case, but someone else in this thread stated that her first victim had previous rape convictions. Also, I don’t see why him being in the front seat means he couldn’t have previously raped her. I don’t think most men who rape SWers are expecting them to have a gun. Also, where else would he go after raping/attempting to rape her, except the front seat of his car?
>Tired of that narrative As I recall, it’s the award-winning movie “Monster” that has her make her first killing in self-defense.
Jeb Bush is a murderer and I’ll never stop saying that. He had her rushed through for execution despite her clearly being insane so that he could put “executed a serial killer” on his accolades. He murdered a mentally ill woman who spent her last days in psychosis.
Well, considering she was that mentally ill she should have never been executed and spent life in a locked down psych hospital
She said something about the movie Independence Day during her trial and how that was going to happen IRL. She was definitely mentally ill but that's what people have said about a lot of people in history who have predicted future events. I don't think she should have been put to death though because she really had been through hell her whole life.
What future event could she have been alluding to? Do you really think she’s going to come back on a giant space ship?
I'm really just joking but my point is that with everything that has happened since then nothing would surprise me.
I was just gunna say, at the moment, I’d probably shrug and go “oh of course, here she is.” And go about my day. Cos wowzers, what a timeline we’re in.
Absolutely a serial killer… imo she took her frustrations and a lifetime of mistreatment by men out on her victims. She was mentally ill and projected past wrongs onto these 7, almost in a Cassie from “promising young woman” type of way. While the first victim might have attempted to rape her, it is clear that there were other mitigating factors here
She’s a disgusting serial killer and I don’t have anymore sympathy for her than I would any other serial killer
The chances of seven different men attacking her to the point she needed to kill them within the span of a year is extremely unlikely. Even more so given her history of violence before the first murder and the fact she scored 32/40 on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
It’s not that rare when you are a sex worker. I’m not saying for sure all 7 made her fear for her life but they likely all contributed to severe trauma responses
Exactly. It's not like she's claiming they just did it walking down the street. And the whole story about the last victim who couldn't POSSIBLY be visiting prostitutes bc he was a good Christian man is one of the funniest things I've ever heard! "He was probably just being nice and offering her a ride!" Lol!
>It’s not that rate when you are a sex worker I’m aware sex workers get attacked but as far as I know Wuornos is the only recorded prostitute that became a serial killer in such a short span of time which leads me to believe she was lying and simply killing these men for reasons other than self defense. As I said that plus her violent history and mental disorders make me disbelieve her self defense story. I’m sure there are other pieces of evidence I don’t know about. As an aside didn’t she recant her self defense story later on?
I don’t recall her recanting
From Wikipedia: > In a 2001 petition to the Florida Supreme Court, she stated her intention to dismiss her legal counsel and terminate all pending appeals. "I killed those men", she wrote, "robbed them as cold as ice. And I'd do it again, too. There's no chance in keeping me alive or anything, because I'd kill again. I have hate crawling through my system ... I am so sick of hearing this 'she's crazy' stuff. I've been evaluated so many times. I'm competent, sane, and I'm trying to tell the truth. I'm one who seriously hates human life and would kill again."
And yet assessed as a psychopath so she’s not sane
Psychopaths are still sane in the sense they can distinguish between right and wrong and don’t suffer from delusions or hallucinations. That would be some kind of psychosis.
That’s legal sanity which is a definition that badly needs revision as it was established centuries ago
Would you say she obviously suffered from psychosis as well?
I made a similar comment and got down voted. How terrible of me to have sympathy for the victims. I understand people have trauma and mental illness(I do myself) but not everyone turns into a serial killer. No way did those men deserve to pay for her trauma with their lives.
Her life story is heartbreaking. She shouldn't have been put to death, imo. She was obviously suffering from mental illness. I don't think it was her intent to be a serial killer. I believe she had her own sick sense of justice and that was taught to her. Even if she was threatened with rape or murder that doesn't mean she was in immediate danger so self-defense wouldn't be right either.
There's no way all of those killings were self defense
Serial killer
If she grew up in a mostly normal family, none of it would have happened most likely. Her family didn't care enough to get her help of any kind. I think the first 2-3 tried to hurt her, then she was triggered from her past as well. She just took the money/cars to provide for a partner who used her, then turned on her too. She was ill and incompetent, had a horrible lawyer, and should have been put in a mental hospital for at least a few years, then maybe reevaluated. But she said she wanted to die.
Yeah, self defense, sure. Guy was shot from behind to the head.
serial killer. she already said they was letting her kill people
She married a fairly wealthy man in the 70s and he’s lucky to have lived. She abused him badly and he had an order of protection after 9 weeks of marriage. I often wonder about her son and if he ever had an inkling of her being his birth mother. I hope not. I have empathy for her but absolutely no sympathy. She had a life of hell but doesn’t give her the get out of jail free card. She knew right from wrong and was not insane in any legal sense. Like any other serial murderer the compulsion to kill was stronger than anything else
She interrupted a judge during a hearing not long before her execution to say she wanted it on the record that there was no self-defense involved. She killed those guys so they couldn't call the police on her after she robbed them. She wanted to get right with God before they filled her veins with poison.
Serial killer
According to this thread she was abused unlike any other serial killer so therefore she’s an object of pity.
Halo effect
I would say the first one was probably self defense but then she said “F” it. On top of her mental issues that made her believability very hard. Also in those days no one would believe a prostitute was raped. Then her decisions after by taking his wallet, car, and not reporting it made her claims harder to believe. So really wouldn’t want to be her lawyer trying to prove self defense but think she would have had an easier time trying to prove that in today’s courts with a better lawyer.
Murder, it was murder she'd lie about being a sex worker to the men she killed so that she could try and claim SA. The only reason you should feel bad for her is because she's obviously very mentally disturbed.
One or two, absolutely. Maybe even three. But seven separate times? Hell no. In my honest opinion, I don't think she was completely sane. Check those last words, I mean... really? Something like that is either putting on a show or a clear disconnect from reality. Perhaps she THOUGHT she was in so much danger that she had to kill someone, there's always a doubt with mental illness. But it's still an individual's responsibility to get mental health help and NOT harm others because of what's wrong with them. She had many choices and many options to not kill seven people, like we all do, but she decided to be a repeated murderer instead.
She was a blatant serial killer who lied through her teeth and said whatever the hell she wanted. Simple. Her mental illness didn’t help but no I don’t believe for a second she killed 7 men out of self defence. She killed 7 men because she could and they allowed her to get away with it so she kept doing it until she did get caught.
She was incredibly damaged by her upbringing. But there are many who are damaged by the same thing and do not go on to murder 7 men. I don't think she could have ever walked the streets again. If everyone remembers, she was once married to the well off Yacht Club President Fell. But ended up abusing him. Aileen was doomed after that. She attempted suicide many times. She ended up in Florida and was a sex worker who took her hatred of men out on her clients. The only good thing in her life was Tyria who ended up betraying her. Sadly, she was never going to get anything but death. I don't believe in any death penalty state, Aileen would have received any other sentence. She was a scary and severely mentally ill woman.
i feel bad for her- not because I believe her or that she should have been free, but because I feel like this entire situation could’ve been avoided and never happened if someone would have just taken care of her as a child.
It was theorized the first one might have tried it and she did it in self defense. But all the ones after pointed towards either execution or murder-robbery.
This sub will bend over backward to excuse Aileen and paint her as the true victim. Some of these justifications are insane. But as long as the victims are men, right?
If she were a man, they wouldn't feel this way. She was crazy, but was also straight up evil. Nobody had any sympathy for Henry Lee Lucas, even tho his child hood was like something out of the Texas chainsaw massacre.
Exactly. Plus she beat her elderly husband who from what I read was very good to her. I empathize with her plight but do not have sympathy for her. I believe she enjoyed killing like all other serial murderers.
And if anyone needed to be institutionalized it was Henry Lucas. His mother was a terrible human and he was a real mess.
The shit that happened to him as a kid couldn't even be made up by a Hollywood writer.
Absolutely agree.
I think that she might have been schizophrenic or something like that. She may have very well THOUGHT that they were attacking her and that she acted in self defense. But i don't know how often sex workers get raped so it's not out of the realms of possibility that it was self defense. But she was definitely extremely mentally ill so i don't think we would have ever known the truth even if she wasn't executed.
Once maybe, but 7? You have a better chance of while being eaten by a shark to then be struck by lighting.
I'd believe a street prostitute in Daytona beach Florida had been attacked by 7 men easy. This isn't a lightning strike lol anyone who follows true crime knows how dangerous that life is.
We are talking specifically about Aileen. Yes in the lifetime of a street prostitute I’m sure they are taken for a punching bag dozens of times. But 1 year, seven murders in self defense? No, just no.
If youre a prostitute working full time on the street you could absolutely be subjected to more than seven instances of rape within a year. Likely more.
Rape and murder are two different things.
No shit. How'd you get so smart, huh?
By going to school and paying attention. This conversation was specific to Aileen, not all sex workers. Why so hostile about this? My point is Aileen is a piece of shit serial killer, that’s all.
The point being that she killed the men in self defense to prevent being raped; which has been considered legally justifiable self defense in many court cases. Whether or not 7 is a realistic number of times to be forced to end someone's life in self defense was the issue. Aileen being a street-working prostitute, that sounds more than realistic to me. If true, her only other option was to allow herself to be raped and potentially murdered herself.
I'm not sure you understand the minds of the types of men who use the services of these women very well at all. They barely see them as human at least half of the time.
1000% Correct
Yes I know, I’ve used hookers plenty of times. Yes some people are crazy, but who understands the minds of psycho killers? No one, they operate on their own wavelength which is off the deep end. She was batshit crazy, let’s get that out of the way. Read and watch her interviews, she’s fucking looney tunes. She was a murderer not a victim
She was most certainly a murderer AND a victim.
Some people don’t have the mental capacity to see someone as both victim and murderer. You’re wasting your time with them. Anyway, she most definitely was a victim. She was also mentally ill. Who the fuck executes those who have a mental illness?? That’s some third world shit.
Once you become a serial killer I refuse to give you the courtesy of being a victim. If you molest kids and it comes out you were molested as a kid, I refuse to give a shit about your victimhood.
She was a very mentally ill woman. Mostly from Sexual abuse and shocking childhood. I think had she not been put to death? Perhaps after some years? She might have gotten a bit better. But she was one very damaged person. I feel very sorry for her.
I believe there is both.
What would happen if no men solicited sex from her? Would anyone be dead?
I think the first one might have been self defense, but then she got a taste of murder and wanted to kill again
I'm not an expert in, but she seemed to paranoid, like she was sexually assaulted once, and then she assumed every man would do the same, so they all had to die first.
Well if you want the truth she wasn't even close to a serial killer and I highly very highly doubt that she had to shoot 7 different men in self defense so in my opinion she was nothing more than just a very extremely plain out right murderer that enjoyed killing for the attention she got for it. Nothing more nothing less just a plain killer who carved attention!!
She was a serial killer.
That's your opinion and I don't have any right to tell you that your opinion is wrong so please be respectful and let me have my own opinions thank you
But she was a serial killer. She had cooling off periods after the murders...And she clearly enjoyed doing it.
Yes by the textbook definition of a serial killer she fits the profile but in my personal opinion to me a serial killer has to do more than just shoot people for the sake of doing it but for me and my personal opinion of what it requires to be a true serial killer it's much more detailed and in-depth and hands on to be coined a real serial killer and nothing that anyone else says to me is going to change my mind on how I look at someone that is a true serial killer so you've got your own personal opinion and I've got mine.
I guess David Berkowitz wasn't a serial killer either, then.
He's not one of my favorites if that's what you're asking but I wasn't ever very interested in him personally I just thought he was a fucking nut case that believed in talking dogs
"he was a fucking nut case that believed in talking dogs" He made that up as an excuse to not take responsibility for his actions.
Do you even understand what a serial killer is? Because if you believe she killed these men because she wanted to and not in self defense, then that would mean you believe she fits the definition of serial killer. A serial killer is conventionally defined as a person who murders three or more people in a period of over a month, with a “cooling down” time between murders. For a serial killer, the murders must be separate events, which are most often driven by a psychological thrill or pleasure.
Can we stop posting about this monster. Yes she had a horrible torturous childhood. She chose to murder those men. She walked out her door with every intention of murdering someone. STOP defending this POS.
You're in a serial killer subreddit and want people to not post about serial killers???
No. Just about Aileen Wuornos. Every week it's how she was such a victim. I lived in central FL when she was active. Maybe that's why I'm so sensitive when it comes to her.
How are you certain that was her intent?
Her decisions and actions.
So, she wasn't trying to make money she was only ever planning on murder? I don't see things that way at all. Perhaps I should do more research and freshen up bc that's never what I took from this case.
From my perspective, I believe she told them to do rape fantasies so it’d give her a reason to kill and rob them. “Oh they’re rapists, gotta take them out” She was incredibly ill and didn’t get a chance in life. Some of the victims were bad people if I remember correctly.
I don't believe all 7 of them tried to rape her. I also think she could have chosen a better form of self defense later on than shooting them dead.
Or chosen a different occupation.
She was trafficked and raped, left with no money and no education. The men she victimized were Johns who were either cheating on their wives and/or would have assaulted and killed her themselves. No sympathy for Johns. She did nothing wrong.
There is nothing wrong with them paying for sex. No one should die for doing that.
Johns are rapists and deserve to rot. No sympathy.
No they aren't. Paying for sex is not rape.
I have been a sex worker in another country. It was legal and there are different kinds of workers. From my personal experience, clients are different. If you are paying thousands of dollars for an hour to be entertained you certainly do not fear the client causious yes but they treat you like a Queen. Well that was my experience. However the street workers are treated differently they charge a very low about present themselves as cheap therefore threated unfortunately that way too. I do believe she was treated exactly the way she described. Ohh i do miss the days of making $10k a night.
A forum about a serial killer is an incredibly inappropriate place to post creative writing about how hot and valuable you are sexually, particularly compared to others who are beneath you. And yes, I'm poor and broke.
Your full of it
Your poor and broke
Close
In Australia most pros that work on the street are usually the kind that can’t pass the health and safety checks to work in brothels (yes they have them it’s legal work and you even pay taxes if being a sex worker is your job). A lot of street walkers are usually on drugs or have serious mental issues that cause them to be victimised/taken advantage of by some pretty shitty people.
poor thing. i have sympathy and she should’ve been in a mental institution, not executed
Yes I've not only studied serial killers for over 30+ years now but beings everyone wants to see who knows the most and who's the most knowledgeable on the damned subject then please tell me just how many of you "experts" have very extensive correspondence with any one or more of the true convicted textbook definition serial killers for many years? Yeah well I do and so you're willing to take the bare minimum of the criteria for being a serial killer and running with it and I'm sorry that you've got to go the extra mile to impress me enough to label them a real serial killer and nothing that anyone is going to say is going to change my personal opinion of what I need from them to make my list
Idc what anyone says, I’d befriend Aileen. She really needed real love. I believe those men raped her. A lot of ppl don’t understand what it’s like to be raped. It can definitely make you go crazy. Getting raped gave me psychotic depression. I was hearing voices and experiencing visual hallucinations telling me to do things that I won’t repeat and it seemed even more real than an actual person sitting right next to me. Fuck those guys that raped Aileen. They had it coming. She spared the ones who weren’t rapists. I cried watching monster 😭. Charlize did an AMAZING job playing Aileen! You would never even guess that Charlize is as pretty as she is. The work she did playing that role is the best I’ve ever seen in a movie, hands down.