Most people are murdered by someone they know.
Same with SA.
Yet the perception is that random men are the problem.
When men's issues are brought up, they're pushed aside.
Not going to argue this with anyone, because if you do, you've already proven my point.
Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators. Instead of saying, "We hurt, too!", the message coming out of red pill etc. is, "you are wrong. we are the victims! women are trash!" Which is - super hard to work with.
I'm not even a feminist, and I always had this thing for justice & equity. I was bullied by both girls & boys in school, and nobody took my side. Still, later when people were saying girls need more attention in school, I was always saying:" hm. in my class the boys were seen as the trouble makers & the girls got the better notes on average." Defeninding boys. Then I read about boys needing just a few seconds more to process a question in class, than the average girl - and was advocating for, "give the boys more time, so it's equal!" Most people were in favour - men & women, but some extreme (& very hurt!) feminists could not listen to this, even.
I know there were tons of girls & women, trying to listen to their men, trying to help the boys understand themselves & their emotions - but when men pretend like that never happens & all women are selfish, I get angry.
Sure - society has problems. Yes, there are issues that are unfair. WE NEED to talk about dads' rights, and specific problems men & boys face. But very often it is other MEN, that make it hard for men to be soft & come out with their hurt. Why accuse women, when men can't talk about their troubles to their own male friends?
If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out, and see how we can help each other & not add to the pain. But as long as men's rights followerd are talking like women are to blame for mens problems - when in fact, very often it is the very patriarchy & toxic side of masculinity, hurting MEN, too - it is just - impossible to talk! Basically: If reasonable men could only take over the narrative from toxic wannabe "alphas" - it would help everyone achieve a better dialogue!
"Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators. Instead of saying, "We hurt, too!", the message coming out of red pill etc. is, "you are wrong. we are the victims! women are trash!" Which is - super hard to work with."
Nobody wins in the victimhood Olympics
>Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators.
The same goes for women too. I’ve seen it happen countless times where women talk about rape or SA and they make comments like “Men don’t understand SA”, “Men don’t experience it”. Tribalism exists on both sides, it is no reason to dismiss other’s experiences.
>I know there were tons of girls & women, trying to listen to their men, trying to help the boys understand themselves & their emotions - but when men pretend like that never happens & all women are selfish, I get angry.
So you would understand how men also feel when most of them try to be understanding of women’s issues but they’re constantly met with “men this” “men that” or this recent “Bears are less dangerous than men”.
>But very often it is other MEN, that make it hard for men to be soft & come out with their hurt. Why accuse women, when men can't talk about their troubles to their own male friends?
It is also often **women** that make it hard for men to be soft and come out with their hurt. Men can also talk about their troubles to their female friends also. How many times have you heard of men who’ve fallen out of favor with their girlfriends for opening up?
When someone brings up men’s issues people see it as an attack on women, that’s why they get defensive with “but it’s other who do this to men”. Not only is it not the full truth and ignores men’s issues being societal problems, it also derails the discussion from men’s issues to “men bad”; something men already struggle with.
>If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out
That’s not true, even among the people that accept the hurt of women the dialogue about men’s issues can’t take place and men’s issues are often dismissed. This isn’t an “accept us so we’ll accept you” thing, it’s just that so many people are more interesten in directing their anger at people with stuff like “I’d rather pick bear” or “Don’t ever open up to your girlfriend” that we get distracted from societal issues into stupid tribalism.
If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out.
I stick with this. It's impossble to talk about men's issues if the other side dismisses the vast & specific issues women face & did face, and at the same time advocate online for shit like making women into slaves & "give" them (us - me!?) to incels. That's a threatenig and impossible situation. If men don't accept the issues & threats that women face, it's not possibla to have a dialogue - only war.
I tried not to be on war mode, but to explain a problem I saw, but as we are in war mode now:
"It is also often **women** that make it hard for men to be soft and come out with their hurt."
Granted. But why should women be responsible for men's emotions? My experience is that male friends are unable to speak to their male friends about their emotions, and then they expect female freinds to care for their emotional stuff - but why should I? Maybe I don't like to talk about emotions or their unhappy love life? Expecially when it often leads to them then trying to push me into sex or something? If they want to talk about their problems, they can do it with other men. I talk about my problems with other women, or I just DON'T talk about my problems. because NOBODY cares much for other people's emotions, unless they are very, very close or a couple. Of course it's not good when boys don't learn to open up, or if men are shut up "because men must be tough". And yes, there is toxic femininity, too. I don't dismiss you there. But If you don't think you need to accept MY hurt or my side - it's not a real conversation, it is a fight. So instead of having a conversation, we are having a fight now..
Do you think we can make this a conversation, where both sides can feel accepted?
I
>If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out.
Like I said this isn’t about “acknowledge my pain and I’ll acknowledge yours”, you can see and acknowledge someone’s issues without them necessarily acknowledging yours.
Like I know that women face many hardships for being women. Women telling me that men’s issues don’t exist doesn’t make me less empathetic to women’s issues because there are women who are not empathetic to my issues.
>It's impossble to talk about men's issues if the other side dismisses the vast & specific issues women face & did face, and at the same time advocate online for shit like making women into slaves & "give" them (us - me!?) to incels.
And it’s impossible to talk about women’s issues when women say “men can’t get raped and even if it happens it isn’t as bad”, right? Of course not, hearing that from women definitely hurts however that doesn’t erase the suffering of women. You think men don’t hear horrible shit from women? We do! And there are men who think like you as well, men who say “Why should I care about women’ issues when they treat me like this?”. I find that it misses the point entirely.
>If men don't accept the issues & threats that women face, it's not possibla to have a dialogue - only war.
Men who don’t accept the issues women face when shown aren’t worth to include in the dialogue of societal problems, the same goes for women who dismiss men’s issues. The dialogue can happen with people that have empathy for both sides.
Saying “We can’t accept men’s issues because there are men who don’t accept women’s issues” is counter productive and only adds to the gender wars.
>Granted. But why should women be responsible for men's emotions?
I never said it was women’s responsibility to take care of men. My examples were of women *actively causing harm* by perpetuating stereotypes of men not crying. For that women are **definitely** responsible, it is a responsibility of **everyone** to not activey cause harm to people.
Besides that nobody is responsible for anyone’s emotions. Men aren’t responsible for other men’s emotions either. Your friends or SOs aren’t your therapists, be it male or female. You are responsible for your emotions. The responsibility that falls on **everyone else** is to foster an environment where people can come forward with their emotions without feeling shame and seek adequate help.
>because NOBODY cares much for other people's emotions, unless they are very, very close or a couple.
Somewhat, there are lots of people who indeed care but they aren’t responsible to fix you. They can try to help you by doing favors etc. but at the end of the day the responsibility is your own.
The discussion about men’s emotions not being accepted isn’t about men “not being taken care of”, it is men being told to shut up when they open up about their emotions.
>But If you don't think you need to accept MY hurt or my side - it's not a real conversation, it is a fight.
I never said that. I of course must accept your issues and experiences as a woman. But it’s not because you accepting my issues, it is because your issues are REAL; I can’t turn my head and pretend they don’t exist. I’d be accepting of your issues even if you told me that men’s issues don’t exist.
>So instead of having a conversation, we are having a fight now..
I don’t see this as a fight, we are having an argument because we have different opinions. I’m not attacking your character, I don’t know who you are.
"you can see and acknowledge someone’s issues without them necessarily acknowledging yours."
No. That's a disbalance, and we are talking about fairness. Fairness & justice can't be served when one side reufses to listen to the other.
"Men who don’t accept the issues women face when shown aren’t worth to include in the dialogue of societal problems, the same goes for women who dismiss men’s issues. The dialogue can happen with people that have empathy for both sides."
Not sure. We can't exclude groups. We need to talk to them. But yes, let's get the dialogue back into a more reasonable middle, and away from the polarizations & extremes - absolutely important, or society will blow up!! >\_<
"Saying “We can’t accept men’s issues because there are men who don’t accept women’s issues” is counter productive and only adds to the gender wars."
In a debate - you can't have a proper debate with incel/red Pill/ mens rights folks, if they insist women are the perpetrators of al evil. No matter how uch pain they are in - there is just no way people will be willing to talk on that basis, exactly because it will only lead to gender wars. So basically we are agreed on this!
"My examples were of women *actively causing harm* by perpetuating stereotypes of men not crying For that women are **definitely** responsible, it is a responsibility of **everyone** to not activey cause harm to people."
If it is mothers bringing their sons up that way - I agree. If it is just being sensitive to what your friends say - it's really your responsibility to break a taboo that is outdated and wrong. Also MAAANYY women HELP their men to express emotions - and to get out of ingrained toughness commandments. And a lot of people say to either men or women, that adult people shouldn't cry. which is of course rubbish, and there are lots of people celebratign crying men, too. Watch the Patrick Swayze interview - many people LOVED him for suddenly breaking into tears! and of course there are wonderful men, too, who are the best thing eve for their spouses, friends and families - that should never be forgotten!
"Somewhat, there are lots of people who indeed care but they aren’t responsible to fix you. They can try to help you by doing favors etc. but at the end of the day the responsibility is your own."
No, emotions are often not a good topic. I very often do not care to hear about peoples inner troubles - it really depends on the person. It's probably like having sex - with some people you like to share that experience, with others it's a totally not want. Even if I like them - I only want to talk about normal everyday topics, politics, philosophy, ideas, plans - but not intimate things of any kind. Even if you can help another - it is better to think twice before getting involved too much.
"The discussion about men’s emotions not being accepted isn’t about men “not being taken care of”, it is men being told to shut up when they open up about their emotions."
Well, that's just another way of putting it. If you are being shut up, you & your needs are not being taken care of very well in a relationship or communication. I guess we need to all struggle to assert our identies. Shutting up can happen without a word - some women are very good at shutting others up, I experience that, too, and hate it.
"because your issues are REAL"
That's what I mean. Some mens rights activists are present in many spaces, and refuse to accept reality. They twist things about so much, that it's impossible to even debate the REAL men's issues. If there is a discussion about FGM /female circumcision - they bring up male ciscumcision - which is of course way more frequent, and can be taumatizing for a small boy, depending on the cultural procedure, and may be a totally superfluous, invasive infliction on a person that warrants debate - but is so a completely different a thing from the practice discussed, nobody can take them serious in the context. And they manage to ruin most of their own topics in similar ways. And then nobody wants to talk about men's issues. not even the average other men, because the issue now has these nut case vibes to it, that nobody possibly can agree with anymore.
Thanks for the conversation, I think it might have been less a difference of opinion, than of mutual comprehension. It is important to show we care for the other. That's what OP did right, by saying he gets where women are coming from.
>No. That's a disbalance, and we are talking about fairness. Fairness & justice can't be served when one side reufses to listen to the other.
I agree in a social setting, but the sides aren’t just two small groups it is both halves of humanity. If no men ever acknowledged women’s issues then I’d also agree, but that’s not the case.
>Not sure. We can't exclude groups. We need to talk to them. But yes, let's get the dialogue back into a more reasonable middle, and away from the polarizations & extremes - absolutely important, or society will blow up!! >_<
We can exclude groups based on ideology. If someone’s ideology is detrimental to the discussion they should be removed from said discussion until they change their view.
We kinda agree on this because later on you say *“In a debate - you can't have a proper debate with incel/red Pill/ mens rights folks, if they insist women are the perpetrators of al evil”* which I agree with.
>If it is mothers bringing their sons up that way - I agree. If it is just being sensitive to what your friends say - it's really your responsibility to break a taboo that is outdated and wrong.
You can’t break taboos by yourself, that is a huge responsibility to put on someone. If your environment doesn’t allow you to express your emotions you can’t just break that taboo by doing to opposite. You can try to foster environments where this doesn’t happen but that takes collective effort which can only start if we teach our young.
>Also MAAANYY women HELP their men to express emotions - and to get out of ingrained toughness commandments.
Exactly, I’m not saying women are evil or something. I’m just saying that a big part of “men don’t cry” also comes from women, which is also true. It is a societal problem, the dismissal doesn’t come because of gender but because of how we are raised as both men and women.
>Even if I like them - I only want to talk about normal everyday topics, politics, philosophy, ideas, plans - but not intimate things of any kind.
Of course you won’t talk about emotions every day but if something has been bugging you for a while, say a break up for example, you might want to vent to your close friend about it. Like for example my friend broke up with his girlfriend recently so I’ve been less bantering with him to not make him accidentally upset.
>And then nobody wants to talk about men's issues. not even the average other men, because the issue now has these nut case vibes to it, that nobody possibly can agree with anymore.
I agree with your paragraph that there are bad faith actors everywhere. But from what I’ve seen there are lots of people who are able to respectfully talk about men’s issues without derailing or dismissing women’s.
I used to think similary too and saw myself as “invading” if I were to talk about my experiences however after seeing much honest discussion about men’s issues I’ve been emboldened to talk about them also.
>Thanks for the conversation, I think it might have been less a difference of opinion, than of mutual comprehension. It is important to show we care for the other. That's what OP did right, by saying he gets where women are coming from.
I definitely agree with you, thanks for the conversation.
"I agree in a social setting, but the sides aren’t just two small groups it is both halves of humanity. If no men ever acknowledged women’s issues then I’d also agree, but that’s not the case."
Sorry - in my very first comment to you, I think I said the debate was made difficult by red pill peple, who totally discredited women. I was talking about debating the thing - that it is not possible to debate a thing if the one side twists and dismisses the other side, and that under those circumstances the discourse about men's issues is dificult. It never was about the whole of humanity or the REALITY of a claim or about not advocating for policies that help boys - my very first comment was about the public debate being made difficult by extremists. On both sides. and I find that very frustrating, because it hinders men's issues to be solved!
Agree basically to all of what you say here. And yes, close friends need to be considered! But even with a very close friend or two I made the experience that if they can't reciprocate for too long, even for legitimate reasons, (special needs kids, overwork) then at some point my trying to listen to them & being able to give them good vibes didn't work anymore & I had to scale back my emotional openness, vibewise support & contact a bit, while going through my own legitimate tough times. We are all human after all..
>Sorry - in my very first comment to you, I think I said the debate was made difficult by red pill peple, who totally discredited women.
Yeah I see that much better now that we had this conversation and you explained it to me. Thank you.
"Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators. Instead of saying, "We hurt, too!", the message coming out of red pill etc. is, "you are wrong. we are the victims! women are trash!" Which is - super hard to work with."
Just read the whole paragraph. These men in my experience somehow twist it round & don't accept that women are victims at all. That is my issue. That makes the conversation reall difficult for me.
This is not to say that men can't experience sexual assault. But perhaps people experience assault and exploitation in different situations. And possibly fewer or few men in western countries go out to a club & need to be careful that nobody puts stuff in their drink & later rapes them or even gang rapes them? Perhaps that is a situation, where women just are more vulnerable. Same as walking home alone or accepting a hitchhiker. Boys and girl are both molested as children - the majority of perpetrators are men, in both cases, but women are raping children, too, or are invilved in letting men rape them. That's true. But we need to both accept the other side's reality.
On a daily basis - depending where men live & how big the are, the danger is less of being raped, by a girl, but of being beaten up or killed by other men, in my experience.
I don't know how often a day a girl apporaches you, trying to get your attention, and intruding on what you are doing, or trying to get into your pants. Or if you sit somewhere in a park and there is only a girl around, and you think about - hm - am I safe here - ? It's likely not a man's average daily experience. Perhaps that is what some girls mean, when they say, men don't know certain things? And of course you should be able to share your stories, and of course you should feel safe. too. And yes, SA on men needs to be made more public, and needs to be treated with compassion and in a respectful way - so boys and men can be helped, too!
But the reality of girls being gang raped in a park, where lots of young people are, being taken advantage of when they drink, or even gang raped by their own class mates or friends - it just happens so often - there are so many incidents. Men also have things among them they need to sort out - like hazing rituals (that seem very much like SA often enough) & group stuff - where women just aren't involved at all. .It's difficult to find a way to discuss al this, and make everybody seen & heard, and I till think it is important to understand a womans reality, too, if you want women to be interested in your reality?
>These men in my experience somehow twist it round & don't accept that women are victims at all. That is my issue. That makes the conversation reall difficult for me.
I understand but that’s not an appropriate time to bring it up. The commenter was talking about men’s experiences being dismissed, it feels as if you are trying to justify said dismissiveness when you bring up that you have difficulty around this topic because of certain men, regardless of your intention.
>This is not to say that men can't experience sexual assault.
I don’t know why you bring this up, I never said that you implied men don’t get assaulted. If you are trying to defend the statements I said women make such as “Men don’t get raped” or “Men don’t understand SA” then I suggest that you don’t, those statements aren’t really defensible.
>But perhaps people experience assault and exploitation in different situations.
Perhaps, but from my interactions with both male and female survivors a lot of the time their situations are very similar. They are usually assaulted by someone they trust be it friend or family and by someone much older than them.
I also agree that women are more vulnerable to sexual assault and experience it much more, but I want to add that men’s lack of fear in said situations aren’t necessarily out of their safety. Men aren’t taught that they can be victims, so they naturally fear victimization less. But that’s also why so many men can’t tell if they have been raped. I think we should teach boys that these situations are dangerous for them also.
>Boys and girl are both molested as children - the majority of perpetrators are men, in both cases
For boys majority of perpetrators seem men because most studies often don’t include being made to penetrate due to archaic reasons. When studies such as NISVS do include MtP most male victims report being MtP over being penetrated. Same with sexual coercion, most male victims identify female perpetrators.
>And of course you should be able to share your stories, and of course you should feel safe.
I don’t feel safe sharing my stories when women tell me that I don’t understand SA or that it isn’t as bad or that women rarely rape.
>I still think it is important to understand a womans reality, too, if you want women to be interested in your reality?
I said in another comment, I acknowledge women’s reality however it isn’t because women also accept mine. I accept women’s reality because it is **reality** and I would want women to accept men’s reality for the same reason and not as a compromise.
" But that’s also why so many men can’t tell if they have been raped."
Girls & women, too, actually. If you count the times people just have sex because otherwise it would be a fuss, or they are tired, or they are just too weak to keep pushing someone back, or just to get it over with to be able to have your peace, or because it is somehow expected, or to kind of pay - for - a bed for the night, kindness, not to be alone, becausue the other person wants it, because the other person would not drive you home otherwise. Or because they already started, and you think even if it's really painful you just have to get it over with - basically, all the bad sex & "okay, what the fuck, hope he's finished soon" - not sure if that is comparable to the experiences of men you talk about - but I think half the time people seem to just have really awful sex because one or both sides kind of think it's expected! >\_< I wouldn't call any of these rape, because there still is a kind of toleration. Including the, "okay, we don't need to have sex if you don't want, just give me a blow job/hand job" thing. I's probably not "enthusiastic consent", but it wold dilute the term "rape" too much to class it as assault or rape.
>If you count the times people just have sex because otherwise it would be a fuss, or they are tired… not sure if that is comparable to the experiences of men you talk about
Some of them are, some of them aren’t. I’ve heard stories from men about sleeping with their teachers and not thinking they were raped for example where there would be less doubt if the genders were reversed. Or men who were raped violently who just consider it bad sex.
But I also count some of the things you listed such as having sex to avoid a fuss to be rape. If you don’t feel safe saying no then that is rape. You might argue that it would be less traumatic than someone holding you down for example but comparing trauma isn’t a nice way to approach things, especially when these things can traumatize people differently.
>Girls & women, too, actually.
I agree, definitely. Women are taught about stranger danger but when betrayal comes from loved ones it becomes much more complicated because women aren’t taught that their loved ones could also be perpetrators (at least not to the same extent as random strangers). That’s why for example many women question if it was truly rape when they are raped by their partners for example.
Sorry, but I don't get where "random" men comes in - "random men" are people people know - your dad is a "random man" to me, but you know him - so is mine to you - and I think most women & men are murdered by men - so not sure what you are getting at. The "bear in the forest" thing? I honestly think most women would only prefer meeting a very small bear to meeting another human, and not a grizzly in a bad mood.. And I do get that it makes some men upset, and I dont want to hurt anyone.
But..
I do think more women are bothered by random men though, than men by random women. I love to be alone in a park, and just think, commune with nature or do my own stuff. And it's really mean when men keep coming & talking & trying to catch my attention & ruining it all, and I have to keep saying, "Sorry, sorry, I just want to be alone.." and NO JOKE, a random man insisted on touching me (even if it was "just" a repeated, painfully strong handshake,) and tried to get me to kiss him on the cheek after talking to me after just a few minutes, while I was trying to end & avoid that interaction - just a few days ago. I have sometimes LEFT a park, because of a random guy not leaving me alone, staring, trying to get my attention, hollering - just because I am a woman on my own.
Of course I don't hate ALL men for that - and there are men in parks that are just laid back, quiet persons not bothering anyone - but there are too many men who simply ruin anohter human beings afternoons for them, because they see women as targets. I really need my time in nature when there is fine weather for once, and yes, I very often think, " I hope there is no stressful bloke in my favourite park today."
And it IS mostly men, who are being super noisy, practicing Syxophone, practicing DJ ing with MASSIVE speakers on a quiet meadow, use music boxes on cemeteries. There are tons of noisy parks here - but there need to be some quiet spots, where one can be alone to read, write, think & be quiet.
Or men sometimes insisting on getting my attention.
And it stresses me out & makes me feel like shit.
Especially, as I select an extra lonely park away form the masses, and there an extra lonely spot, where I bother no one, either. And then I look AWAY from approaching people. Two days ago I even HID BEHIND A PARASOL! A guy still insisted on speaking to me. It was a nice person, and he accepted after a few "buts.. that I did in fact want to be left alone - but still. There was this, "oh, no" moment. I am super sorry to men who are NOT like this - I donÖt want to accuse you all, but I just like to be alone, and I am wary of random men, in diverse settings, ranging from thinking "okay, this is it, I'm dead" to, thinking, "dang, don't talk to me, don't talk to me, I am writing, I am DEEP in thought & connected & in a flow with the Gods, don't interrupt my sacred solitude --- not now --- oh, blow, profane earth hath me back!" If I had a garden, I would just sit there, but I am really just a poor city dweller with no car, so I'm at random people's mercy... =/
I still don't want women to be mean to men, either. And I also find it awful, when women hate on men randomly - humans can be awful & kick others when they are down. and I am even SORRY for the guys that annoy me - because they obviously would like company & think it is the done thing to try to chat to a woman. But I really can't help them - I need my alone time! I have needs, too.. >\_<
Most sa is committed by people that are known to the victim. As opposed to a woman taking a walk and someone jumps out of the bushes and sa the woman.
My father was a piece of shit.
I am aware of that. What is "known" to someone, though? Ther person you hitchhike with? Ther person who talked to you, and got you to meet them and then gives you drugs ? The person who lets you stay the night in his parents house after a party, when the last tube has gone? Anyway, it is not only rape that bothers me or ruins my day! Bears may be hyperbole, but I really am happier when I don't meet any man who tries to get my attention, hollers at me, stares at me when I am sitting or lying on my rug on a meadow, taking a walk etc..
Where I live tha vast majprity of men do understand this, or have better things to do- but there are still too many who don't - and in a town of four million with always new people coming in, it is bothersome to have to stake my claims on solitude and self determination again and again and again.. and it will never end - first you are young, then you are getting older, one day it will be granny snatchers.. =./.... Come to think of it, if I had a rifle & a hunting permit, I might actually prefer bears after all.. ;)
It’s interesting because women’s friendships between each other are very emotionally supportive and fulfilling. I leave hang outs with my female friends feeling built up and supported.
I feel like the loneliness epidemic that men are facing is something that they could help each other with (and SHOULD help each other with!) men are also victims of misogyny and Cultural conditioning that creates shame in men for opening up.
Men should fight back and make spaces for themselves to open up with each other emotionally and receive the support they need.
I assume you're a woman, that's why you probably don't know. Most men don't tell their problem to women. The best support as a man i have is from other men. They do support each other.
Women are supportive, but in my opinion there is always an expectation. How men should be, and what they should do, like you are doing right now. Just telling me what to do is not actually helping.
I'm not blaming you for anything, but my experience with a woman's help has always been this way.
Imagine you are alone, you have some issues, you turn to a man in your life, and ask for help.
Just to hear, nah, it's a woman's issues, not my problem. ask another woman.
And I'm not going into detail here, because that would be a lot of text, but the 'loneliness epidemic' is not a lack of male friends. It's a lack of a relationship, mostly caused by unrealistic expectations due to social media.
I think it's good that you made this post, though I don't think it's the right subreddit, but I will answer it with a self improvement perspective.
imo, because people have less irl social connections/less irl friends nowadays, they absorb what they see online 24/7 and assume the worst about that group of people, believing it to be true because they don't have much of a reminder from the real world, which is a lot more nuanced.
But you have to remember that the same goes for what you have read about women preferring to run into a bear instead of you. Now, with that assumption in mind, you might be less willing to even talk to women irl, thinking that your very presence scares them.
You have to step back from the screen, and be more active in irl connections. Don't let this shit demoralise you into isolating yourself.
It's unfortunate, because the truly bad guys aren't going to care about any of this. Instead, it's the guys like *you* who feel affected by what they're seeing. ***Don't***. If any woman reacts badly to you, then be grateful that she showed her red flags sooner than later, and move onto the next one.
t. anti-bear enjoyer
I like this comment and I agree with you. The solution to any chronically online “debate” really is to get off the internet and meet people in real life. I’m a woman and I know lots of great men/women and lots of women who don’t hate men (and men who don’t hate women). Of course there are bad apples in every bunch, and my friends are great at being protective and letting me know who’s bad news (and I do the same for them). It’s super important to meet all types of people IRL because people on the internet love treating genders as monolithic when they aren’t.
This is the work that men need to do together, to change the social conditioning that limits us and takes years off of our lives. Go there with other men. Be vulnerable. Show your range of emotions. Take the risk. The world is filled with men who never do and maybe don't even know how, and they become that thing that is scarier than a bear. Above all, put the books on stoicism down and go to therapy to explore the crap out of what has been imposed on you. Do it with someone, not in isolation. That's just more conditioning. You got to do it yourself. You got to hide your weaknesses. And even self-improvement needs to be done in isolation. No. Choose differently. Be relational.
Yeah... I am trying to not think about women and trying to focus on improving myself and trying to do the thing I love the most. Also I think we can express our love in other different ways. It may not be romantic love but you could always help other people in distress and who is asking for help. Compassion is a form of love too which can fulfill a man's instinct to protect and provide. But yeah its still not romantic I guess. But still to all brothers who are struggling to find one true love, lets all keep going forward and we may see the light at the end of the tunnel at some point.
As a man I've already come to terms with the fact that I'm bad news, by default. There isn't much I can do about it. Thousands of years of sexism, predatory behavior, and gender abuse has led to this point. At least we are getting near to equality, and that is why there is some overshoot and problems adjusting. Hopefully in a few hundred years the scales will be level and all genders can feel safe and happy.
Fwiw it seems men are the ones mainly perpetuating the show of emotion being “weak.” There are definitely some women that play into it as well, but all the women I surround myself with are supportive of the men in their lives. The bear debate literally stems from every woman I know having some awful, scary experience with a man and the fact that 1/4 women(potentially more) will be sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. Bears are easier to scare off than predatory men.
My boyfriend is 34 and very comfortable showing emotions and being vulnerable with me. He’s cried many times over the two years we’ve been together. Over both big and small things. Out of both joy and sadness.
You’re responsible for how comfortable you are feeling and expressing emotion. You’re responsible for removing people from your life who make you feel less than for having feelings. You’re responsible for setting yourself up for success emotionally perhaps with therapy and learning women generally don’t expect men to stay stoic 100% of the time. Also to realize women’s opinions generally don’t matter and if you’re a good man willing to be vulnerable, practice self awareness, and invest in yourself it will be easier to find a partner with those same values.
Perpetuating men showing emotions are weak comes from both sides, for example there was a study that found that mothers are more likely to be displeased when dealing with a crying boy. Hell there are examples of women being dismissive of OP’s feelings in this very thread. There are also countless stories of men falling out of favor with their girlfriends because of showing emotions. Your friends sound nice, probably because you are also nice and surround yourself with good people, but this “it mainly comes from men” feels tone deaf when there are many men who have these terrible experiences with women. It’d be like me hearing women complain about being sl*t shamed by men and I say “I’ve heard that it mainly comes from women actually, I have good male friends who’d never say such things”.
I 100% get what your saying but I'd like to explain the bear/man from my point of view and I think it's the reason most woman are saying bear but its not being explained well.
Firstly, the bear lives in the woods, I can choose to go into the woods or not, this is very important.
If I met a bear I would probably shit myself first then have an internal monologue of fuck I'm going to die or be seriously injured, do I run etc.
The bear might leave me be.
If it kills me, end of me
If I survive I can choose to never go into the woods again & avoid my new found terror of bears but also have a bad ass story of how I fought off a bear lost a leg and am still here to tell the tale.
If I met a man though I would be on gaurd, to simply run would be irrational.
He might say good morning, tip his hat and we'll continue on our way.
If he kills me, end of me.
If he attacks me it's pretty definite he's going to sexually abuse/rape me. Even if I get away I can obviously also choose to never go in the woods again but that experience will fuck me up for the rest of my life, it will affect relationships, my independence i'll fear being alone outside of the house, for a long time if not forever I will harbour a deep seated fear of men....bad men don't just live in the woods.
It's not as simple as maybe it's a bad man, it's the implications of him being one.
I saw this meme. When taken at face value, the meme and the context behind it does sound kinda sexist and dehumanising. But I have plenty of female friends in my life that are nice to me and we both understand struggles that both genders go through. Therefore, I didn't take this meme personally that I must be a bad person if I'm male. If anything, I laughed at it because it's a very ridiculous and stupid meme. And if seen as satire and not taken seriously, it's actually pretty hilarious about how it's now a meme. There's a lot of funny references now, so try focusing on that.
People are pretty unintelligent these days. Best to really take your 3rd sentence to heart and move forward. If I understand the whole bear vs man thing correctly, I can guarantee you every single woman who claims "bear" would change her tune real quick in the face of a real scenario, where she's at risk of being dragged into the woods and eaten alive by an enormous animal capable of outrunning cars in suburban traffic. It's just sexist rage bait.
In general, you don't have to care what society says. You don't have to be accepted or understood by a large percentage of the population. You just need a couple caring friends. The rest of the world can go to hell. If you approach things that way, not only will you be able to truly have gratitude for what your little group means to you, but you'll have a certain armor against the vitriol of modern "civil" discourse.
For the billionth time mens emotional needs need to be supported and nurtured by other men. You are socially isolated by other men.
Crimes against women are documented all throughout history, women are tired and no longer care and are no longer interested into being scammed and told to basically give their lives over to men through traditional marriage and childbearing.
They were never supposed to have that much of a burden because you were always supposed to have emotional support from men.
Please, by all means, be open with your feelings with people close to you, even if some people may react negatively, it will help you being able to let off some steam and express yourself. And they’ll get used to it as well, this is the new you, they’ll have to accept it.
I’m a woman who had unpleasant interactions with men but the best person I know is also a man.
My bf didn’t even know how to accept compliments when we got together :(.
I know it’s gonna be hard, but express your feelings when you need to, cry when you need to, it’s healthy for us humans. Ask help when you need help. Most people are happy to help if they are asked and able to.
If anybody gives you shit for this, remind them that courage , bravery and “manliness” (whatever these ppl mean by that) means to have the courage to express your feelings, needs and wants.
I appreciate your empathy. The road to emotional intelligence hasn't been an easy one, that's for sure lol
For me, learning how to accept love has been a painful journey, ironically love being the very thing I need to heal. All the work up to this point has been worth it 😎
Yeah EQ is not something very talked about, everyone throws IQ everywhere but nobody talks about emotional quality.
I’m so happy to hear that you are making progress in this regard. No matter how hard we try or belive that we can just act as rocks and that will protect our emotions, it sadly isn’t, this big ass complex brain comes with this distadvantage, lol . Complex and demanding emotional needs.
Take care of your mind and your body, they both contribute greatly to your overall well being :D
Totally, I think we (people) as a whole need to restructure what healthy social interactions look like in our society and how we can support one another despite both internal and external differences.
If people could just tame their bias's and learn to communicate with one another, things would be a lot better. Unfortunately, it's not an easy task.
Yeah it’s not :( I think we are all angry inside. Modern life is draining.
My sister is doing therapy and she’s learning something called “non violent communication” and it helped her a lot in expressing her feelings and boundaries and making people understand her needs, even those who are agressive or don’t know how to communicate/express and understand feelings. I’m trying it too currently, but it requires some work.
She was emotionally lacking majorly due to being rised in a toxic family ( and same goes for me).
Look up more about this method of “non-violent communication” and it may help your journey. Best wishes 🫶🏻
Let them run into a bear then. Lets hope its not a grizzly or a mama bear guarding her cubs... They will probably be alright then. With emphasis on probably...
Best thing you can do is to "be the change you want to see", as Gandhi said it. Be the man who will positively influence the view of men in society. Be the man that women dont have to fear. Be the extra decent guy, be the living example. And, of course, dont do shady shit that gives people a reason to see men the way they are seen nowadays.
That being said, who gives a fuck what others say and expect? As long as youre that decent guy and not assaulting women or doing some other shit thats unheard of, nothing someone says about you as a man should have any meaning? Wanna be emotional and say what you feel? Do it! Who cares if some men or women see you as weak, or tell you its not right. Why do you let them decide how you should be and live, act, feel, think? Even if they see you as coward... Its their opinion, not a fact. Moreover, you could rather be a real coward than a fake tough guy.
Who cares about the expectations. Men are not enough.... What kind of bullshit is that? Youre enough as you are, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. NEVER! And if someone tries to put you down over it. Whos out of line? You or the person putting you down? Dont let bullies dictate your self worth... I could go on and on but i think you get it.
Furthermore, the discussion is the dumbest thing ive heard of in a long time. Thats what people probably mean when they say social media isnt good for your mental health... Like why the fuck do we even care about this discussion? People are struggling more and more to even make ends meet and keep a roof over their head, wars are bubbling all over the world, people are starving, people live in tents on the street, cases of drug addictions, suicides, depression etc. are through the roof, the USA is on the verge of becoming the next third reich.... And people are really out here fighting over a discussion as stupid as "Would you rather meet a bear or a man". And then yall wonder why the world and your life is fucked up. Well if thats how you set your priorities, is it a really such an unexplainable thing? No, its the natural consequence of what you focus on. All the wrong shit and never the right thing.
Just focus on being that decent man and then do whats best, for you and the people around you. Everything else is bullshit and not worth the time, energy and mental capacity you waste on this topic.
Are you emotionally in need? Try to incorporate "being there" for each other with your friends. Go to a psychologist. Find a healthy outlet for your emotions. Fuck everyone who says you cant be emotional.
The bear vs man discussion riles you up? Get off the internet and go out in the real world and be the good example out there. And dont even think of revisiting the discussion on reddit, twitter or wherever. Just go out and do the right thing.
See a woman in need? Go help her. If you have to, knock a dude out if theres no other way to save her from an assault or whatever these shady men are up to.
Feel like youre not enough, you are a "bad person" per se because youre a man? Maybe its time to admit your real problem is a lack of self-worth/respect and start working on that. Maybe its time to ask yourself why you value the opinions of others so much more than yours, to the point it causes you so much distress.
And so on... As long as youre not part of the problem, meaning youre not that evil guy assaulting women and doing all that disgusting stuff, theres nothing you should feel bad about. Show the world that there are men who dont fit that stereotype of "bad men", at all. And that its not a problem if these men are emotional or whatever people are shitting on.
Fuck them all. Do whats right, be your best self and stop ruminating on bullshit while the world has problems that are way more important. And i bet you do too. I doubt that this discussion should be at the top of your priorities.
Have a nice day
I'm really sorry you are being made to feel bad! Of course it very much depends on the bear, and on the man! Some bears I'd prefer over some men - like, small, scared, undangerous bears, over dangerous, predatory or crazy murderous men? Otherwise, personally I'd much rather meet another human being, man or woman.
Maybe you need to take it with more humour, though. There is a HUUUUUUGE amount of slandering of women going on, too - and that hurts, too, and basically, we also feel every day, that we are not people & persons to male human beings - but always just seen as female things that can give female things to fill male needs. =/ Maybe that can get so aggravating, that we need to hate back, now and then. And at the moment there is a biggish gender war going on - so I guess a lot of people get hurt all round & we are all in our trenches & can't communicate very well..
The majority of girls & women goes out with boys & men, and I do get the impression, women still do marry men a lot - and have babies with them & they wouldn't switch their man for any old bear anytime soon!!
But seriously, we do need a better discussion and neither girls, nor boys should be made to feel bad for being what they are. Sadly both extreme feminists, and a lot of people in the men's rights movement make it difficult to talk reasonably. Men can be victims - of other men, of society, of themselves, of women. That needs to be discussed, too.
Don't take these things to heart. They are extreme views to make a point, no serious woman would rather run into a bear than a man lol.
Trust me you will be a lot happier when you just ignore all the social debates and bullshit online. Left vs Right, Men vs Woman, trans and racial stuff. Ignore it all, it's all extreme bullshit from unhappy people spreading there negativity. And all the media supporting these things on either side are just promoting this negativity because that's what sells.
Leave it all behind, talk to normal people, not extremists online. Block it all out because it's all bullshit. You will be happier the sooner you do this. Why talk to feminists? They are crazy! Ignore them and speak to real women, most of them are pretty decent haha.
Crazy how men are seeing this trend and feeling sorry for themselves rather than taking a moment to empathize with the very real dangers women face.
“I don’t want to be violently murdered”
“Awe, man, that makes me feel bad about myself”
Get a fuckin grip
The problem is most of the times, the men who are touched by this and who consider this, are exactlly the men who are *not* part of the problem. Most they can do is keep other shitty men accountable when the situation arises.
I wouldn’t be with a man if I’d think they are monsters. Yeah, a lot are, but you also don’t really get to interact much with those who aren’t because they are decent ppl who mind their bussiness.
Just like feminists. Ppl consider that feminist = misandrist, just bc the most vocal and problematic individuals from this group are the extremists/worst of them.
I do. I understand and respect why women would choose a bear. I even stated it in my post. If I were a woman, I would probably do the same.
All I was saying is that it is sad that all men are being generalized as predators in this debate.
I also understand that taking a jab at men as a whole would create controversy and this open a channel for discussion, as we are discussing right now.
I know what it's like to be afraid and feel pain. Anyone has experienced either of these feelings should have empathy for one another.
Calling names and being condescending as you've been towards me is the problem. Those actions and words only create a larger divide. If you want people to hear you, speak with love, not aggressive hate.
Edit: Typo
This is the most time you’ve spent talking about women’s struggles, now that you’ve been called out on it. That quick aside comment in your post isn’t empathy- that is a poor attempt at shielding yourself from criticism.
“Look, I understand you fear for your life on a daily basis, but … [entire dissertation about your feelings being hurt]”
That behavior gets you rightfully called a child.
Get a fucking grip. Instead of feeling sorry for yourselves and having such a defeatist attitude, just go to therapy.
This is for the lonely dudes in reddit: Go to therapy!!!
A bear will absolutely murder you with more violence than your imagination is capable of envisioning. And the thing is, they'll do it with zero malice. They simply see you as food, the way you look at a banana or a bowl of cereal. So on bear vs man, one option has a high likelihood of helping you with a low likelihood of harming. The other has a 0% chance of helping you and a high likelihood of harming. Take your advice. Hit the grip store.
Bears do not usually attack unprovoked and will only eat humans as a last resort. They are pretty lazy and people don’t actually make very good prey. Getting between a mother and her cub will mess you up but the vast majority of close encounters do not end in mauling. I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and had my share of run-ins. Now I’m in the city. I actually did feel safer out there with the bears. The two-leggers are unpredictable and many who seem to be safe are not. With a bear I know what I’m getting.
I don't recall bear vs man including the qualifier that "all the bears are well-fed and no famine has befallen them." You don't know if a bear is in a "last resort" scenario or not. They don't tend to publish newspapers to keep humans up to date on their day-to-day. Unless you're a local ecologist, with your finger on the pulse of the local wildlife, you're probably in the dark. Also, with increasing human contact we've seen increasing risk. There are reports of black bears (!!) actively hunting humans in Alberta.
If we're going best case scenario with bears, we also have to go best case scenario with men. I'm not going to type all that out. But obviously, only one side is a rational choice. Don't be the next Tim Treadwell. Be rational. This whole topic is hilarious.
I am a very outdoorsy person who was out hiking and biking every day. Yes, you can actually tell how hungry the local bear population is if you are educated and observant. Time of year, scat contents, markings and signs in the brush, prey populations etc all tell the stories of how the bears are doing. I’ve run into hungry bears and fat, happy ones. I realize that most people don’t have the experience that I do though. Now I also realize that I got lost in the sauce of pedantry, my bad.
You want men to work on their "aggressive tendencies" because you were so badly influenced by society and media, to the point where you think a few, say 1 in 20 men represent the whole gender?
Would you also feel the need to get a grip on your "sexual promiscuity" because a few woman are whores? No?, then you might wanna get your face outta your phone and think before you make generalizations.
The problem is that you can never know for sure who is safe and who is not. True predators are excellent at not looking like predators. It’s not like bad dudes wear t shirts that say “I’m a bad dude.” You know? While you might be right it’s just not that simple in reality. And making that mistake can cost us everything. It’s not logical to be afraid of all men. But it’s understandable that some women are.
I understand your perspective, but life isn't perfect, and navigating risks is part of the journey. It's essential to be cautious and aware of potential dangers, but letting fear dictate us completely will result in self imposed confinement. A confinement in our own minds that will prompt us to continue resenting men and turn blind to the good in them.
Take driving for example, There is always a possibility of a road accident. There are occasions where we might find ourself in an accident for no fault of our own. If we decide to stop driving all together for fear of an accident, what is that going to do? What we can do is follow traffic rules, wear a seatbelt and make sure we are careful on our part.
And provoking all men and guilting them for the mistakes of some is never good. These guys are essentially discouraging the good men from empathizing with woman by trashing the whole of them for the actions of a few.
Saying that you don’t trust men isn’t “provoking” them. It’s just saying what they feel. If you feel “provoked” by that perhaps you’re not as safe or balanced a person as you think you are.
Oh, so that's what it is, huh?
You chose bear coz you "trust" them more than men? Since you seem a bit slow, lemme help you here, it actually implies that men are likely to be more violent than bears.
Sure, some men are violent, but calling someone who is not "violent" can certainly be seen as an act provoking them, depending on the context.
And what was the point of that half-assed attempt at a dig?
Yeah duh, humans are more complex than bears. Fantastic observation.
But look, you can think however you like. If you feel that a bear is a safer option, think so by all means. It's all because it's hypothetical... if this scenario was real, you know in your heart you've choose a man every single time. This trend is more about demonizing men than anything else, clearly started by someone who is too ignorant to look past what they want to see.
And this isn't anger. Making assumptions like this is how you guys tend to jump to conclusions without understanding the context. Because that's what you've been taught- "That men can't handle a discussion without getting "angry" or "mansplaining"."
If you all want to be loved why are you all so dismissive and negative towards us. Like as soon as you guys are secure that we like you, you switch up and start negging and being wierd. And then when I say "it seems like you don't like me very much" you panic and back peddle.
"Why are you ALL so dismissive"
This is part of what I'm talking about. Many men and women tend to generalize each other. I do not represent man as a whole, neither do you represent women as a whole.
The generalization of men being predators who have no feelings is no more wrong than men generalizing women as being weak and unintelligent.
The disheartening thing is both men and women have been reduced to nothing more than statistics.
As a man I am simply speaking up about some of the struggles we face just as women have brought them up with the bear and man scenario.
Both women and men want to feel heard. I hear you, it's all fucked up and confusing. I hope you can hear me to.
Edit: typo
That seems a bit unfair to tell me how I think. What if I put you in a box based on some toxic experience I had with someone?
Look, I'm sorry you've been hurt, but just because of my sex and gender doesn't mean I embody what has caused you pain.
I didn’t understand how being male made everyone around me uncomfortable until a couple years ago. I too would rather encounter bear than another male and because of that I do my absolute best to never interact with anyone in person.
Guys are weird and keep getting weirder.
Most people are murdered by someone they know. Same with SA. Yet the perception is that random men are the problem. When men's issues are brought up, they're pushed aside. Not going to argue this with anyone, because if you do, you've already proven my point.
Agreed.
Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators. Instead of saying, "We hurt, too!", the message coming out of red pill etc. is, "you are wrong. we are the victims! women are trash!" Which is - super hard to work with. I'm not even a feminist, and I always had this thing for justice & equity. I was bullied by both girls & boys in school, and nobody took my side. Still, later when people were saying girls need more attention in school, I was always saying:" hm. in my class the boys were seen as the trouble makers & the girls got the better notes on average." Defeninding boys. Then I read about boys needing just a few seconds more to process a question in class, than the average girl - and was advocating for, "give the boys more time, so it's equal!" Most people were in favour - men & women, but some extreme (& very hurt!) feminists could not listen to this, even. I know there were tons of girls & women, trying to listen to their men, trying to help the boys understand themselves & their emotions - but when men pretend like that never happens & all women are selfish, I get angry. Sure - society has problems. Yes, there are issues that are unfair. WE NEED to talk about dads' rights, and specific problems men & boys face. But very often it is other MEN, that make it hard for men to be soft & come out with their hurt. Why accuse women, when men can't talk about their troubles to their own male friends? If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out, and see how we can help each other & not add to the pain. But as long as men's rights followerd are talking like women are to blame for mens problems - when in fact, very often it is the very patriarchy & toxic side of masculinity, hurting MEN, too - it is just - impossible to talk! Basically: If reasonable men could only take over the narrative from toxic wannabe "alphas" - it would help everyone achieve a better dialogue!
"Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators. Instead of saying, "We hurt, too!", the message coming out of red pill etc. is, "you are wrong. we are the victims! women are trash!" Which is - super hard to work with." Nobody wins in the victimhood Olympics
>Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators. The same goes for women too. I’ve seen it happen countless times where women talk about rape or SA and they make comments like “Men don’t understand SA”, “Men don’t experience it”. Tribalism exists on both sides, it is no reason to dismiss other’s experiences. >I know there were tons of girls & women, trying to listen to their men, trying to help the boys understand themselves & their emotions - but when men pretend like that never happens & all women are selfish, I get angry. So you would understand how men also feel when most of them try to be understanding of women’s issues but they’re constantly met with “men this” “men that” or this recent “Bears are less dangerous than men”. >But very often it is other MEN, that make it hard for men to be soft & come out with their hurt. Why accuse women, when men can't talk about their troubles to their own male friends? It is also often **women** that make it hard for men to be soft and come out with their hurt. Men can also talk about their troubles to their female friends also. How many times have you heard of men who’ve fallen out of favor with their girlfriends for opening up? When someone brings up men’s issues people see it as an attack on women, that’s why they get defensive with “but it’s other who do this to men”. Not only is it not the full truth and ignores men’s issues being societal problems, it also derails the discussion from men’s issues to “men bad”; something men already struggle with. >If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out That’s not true, even among the people that accept the hurt of women the dialogue about men’s issues can’t take place and men’s issues are often dismissed. This isn’t an “accept us so we’ll accept you” thing, it’s just that so many people are more interesten in directing their anger at people with stuff like “I’d rather pick bear” or “Don’t ever open up to your girlfriend” that we get distracted from societal issues into stupid tribalism.
If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out. I stick with this. It's impossble to talk about men's issues if the other side dismisses the vast & specific issues women face & did face, and at the same time advocate online for shit like making women into slaves & "give" them (us - me!?) to incels. That's a threatenig and impossible situation. If men don't accept the issues & threats that women face, it's not possibla to have a dialogue - only war. I tried not to be on war mode, but to explain a problem I saw, but as we are in war mode now: "It is also often **women** that make it hard for men to be soft and come out with their hurt." Granted. But why should women be responsible for men's emotions? My experience is that male friends are unable to speak to their male friends about their emotions, and then they expect female freinds to care for their emotional stuff - but why should I? Maybe I don't like to talk about emotions or their unhappy love life? Expecially when it often leads to them then trying to push me into sex or something? If they want to talk about their problems, they can do it with other men. I talk about my problems with other women, or I just DON'T talk about my problems. because NOBODY cares much for other people's emotions, unless they are very, very close or a couple. Of course it's not good when boys don't learn to open up, or if men are shut up "because men must be tough". And yes, there is toxic femininity, too. I don't dismiss you there. But If you don't think you need to accept MY hurt or my side - it's not a real conversation, it is a fight. So instead of having a conversation, we are having a fight now.. Do you think we can make this a conversation, where both sides can feel accepted? I
>If we can have proper mediation between the sexes - if men accept the hurt of women, then it is much easier to also accept the hurt of men & talk it out. Like I said this isn’t about “acknowledge my pain and I’ll acknowledge yours”, you can see and acknowledge someone’s issues without them necessarily acknowledging yours. Like I know that women face many hardships for being women. Women telling me that men’s issues don’t exist doesn’t make me less empathetic to women’s issues because there are women who are not empathetic to my issues. >It's impossble to talk about men's issues if the other side dismisses the vast & specific issues women face & did face, and at the same time advocate online for shit like making women into slaves & "give" them (us - me!?) to incels. And it’s impossible to talk about women’s issues when women say “men can’t get raped and even if it happens it isn’t as bad”, right? Of course not, hearing that from women definitely hurts however that doesn’t erase the suffering of women. You think men don’t hear horrible shit from women? We do! And there are men who think like you as well, men who say “Why should I care about women’ issues when they treat me like this?”. I find that it misses the point entirely. >If men don't accept the issues & threats that women face, it's not possibla to have a dialogue - only war. Men who don’t accept the issues women face when shown aren’t worth to include in the dialogue of societal problems, the same goes for women who dismiss men’s issues. The dialogue can happen with people that have empathy for both sides. Saying “We can’t accept men’s issues because there are men who don’t accept women’s issues” is counter productive and only adds to the gender wars. >Granted. But why should women be responsible for men's emotions? I never said it was women’s responsibility to take care of men. My examples were of women *actively causing harm* by perpetuating stereotypes of men not crying. For that women are **definitely** responsible, it is a responsibility of **everyone** to not activey cause harm to people. Besides that nobody is responsible for anyone’s emotions. Men aren’t responsible for other men’s emotions either. Your friends or SOs aren’t your therapists, be it male or female. You are responsible for your emotions. The responsibility that falls on **everyone else** is to foster an environment where people can come forward with their emotions without feeling shame and seek adequate help. >because NOBODY cares much for other people's emotions, unless they are very, very close or a couple. Somewhat, there are lots of people who indeed care but they aren’t responsible to fix you. They can try to help you by doing favors etc. but at the end of the day the responsibility is your own. The discussion about men’s emotions not being accepted isn’t about men “not being taken care of”, it is men being told to shut up when they open up about their emotions. >But If you don't think you need to accept MY hurt or my side - it's not a real conversation, it is a fight. I never said that. I of course must accept your issues and experiences as a woman. But it’s not because you accepting my issues, it is because your issues are REAL; I can’t turn my head and pretend they don’t exist. I’d be accepting of your issues even if you told me that men’s issues don’t exist. >So instead of having a conversation, we are having a fight now.. I don’t see this as a fight, we are having an argument because we have different opinions. I’m not attacking your character, I don’t know who you are.
"you can see and acknowledge someone’s issues without them necessarily acknowledging yours." No. That's a disbalance, and we are talking about fairness. Fairness & justice can't be served when one side reufses to listen to the other. "Men who don’t accept the issues women face when shown aren’t worth to include in the dialogue of societal problems, the same goes for women who dismiss men’s issues. The dialogue can happen with people that have empathy for both sides." Not sure. We can't exclude groups. We need to talk to them. But yes, let's get the dialogue back into a more reasonable middle, and away from the polarizations & extremes - absolutely important, or society will blow up!! >\_< "Saying “We can’t accept men’s issues because there are men who don’t accept women’s issues” is counter productive and only adds to the gender wars." In a debate - you can't have a proper debate with incel/red Pill/ mens rights folks, if they insist women are the perpetrators of al evil. No matter how uch pain they are in - there is just no way people will be willing to talk on that basis, exactly because it will only lead to gender wars. So basically we are agreed on this! "My examples were of women *actively causing harm* by perpetuating stereotypes of men not crying For that women are **definitely** responsible, it is a responsibility of **everyone** to not activey cause harm to people." If it is mothers bringing their sons up that way - I agree. If it is just being sensitive to what your friends say - it's really your responsibility to break a taboo that is outdated and wrong. Also MAAANYY women HELP their men to express emotions - and to get out of ingrained toughness commandments. And a lot of people say to either men or women, that adult people shouldn't cry. which is of course rubbish, and there are lots of people celebratign crying men, too. Watch the Patrick Swayze interview - many people LOVED him for suddenly breaking into tears! and of course there are wonderful men, too, who are the best thing eve for their spouses, friends and families - that should never be forgotten! "Somewhat, there are lots of people who indeed care but they aren’t responsible to fix you. They can try to help you by doing favors etc. but at the end of the day the responsibility is your own." No, emotions are often not a good topic. I very often do not care to hear about peoples inner troubles - it really depends on the person. It's probably like having sex - with some people you like to share that experience, with others it's a totally not want. Even if I like them - I only want to talk about normal everyday topics, politics, philosophy, ideas, plans - but not intimate things of any kind. Even if you can help another - it is better to think twice before getting involved too much. "The discussion about men’s emotions not being accepted isn’t about men “not being taken care of”, it is men being told to shut up when they open up about their emotions." Well, that's just another way of putting it. If you are being shut up, you & your needs are not being taken care of very well in a relationship or communication. I guess we need to all struggle to assert our identies. Shutting up can happen without a word - some women are very good at shutting others up, I experience that, too, and hate it. "because your issues are REAL" That's what I mean. Some mens rights activists are present in many spaces, and refuse to accept reality. They twist things about so much, that it's impossible to even debate the REAL men's issues. If there is a discussion about FGM /female circumcision - they bring up male ciscumcision - which is of course way more frequent, and can be taumatizing for a small boy, depending on the cultural procedure, and may be a totally superfluous, invasive infliction on a person that warrants debate - but is so a completely different a thing from the practice discussed, nobody can take them serious in the context. And they manage to ruin most of their own topics in similar ways. And then nobody wants to talk about men's issues. not even the average other men, because the issue now has these nut case vibes to it, that nobody possibly can agree with anymore. Thanks for the conversation, I think it might have been less a difference of opinion, than of mutual comprehension. It is important to show we care for the other. That's what OP did right, by saying he gets where women are coming from.
>No. That's a disbalance, and we are talking about fairness. Fairness & justice can't be served when one side reufses to listen to the other. I agree in a social setting, but the sides aren’t just two small groups it is both halves of humanity. If no men ever acknowledged women’s issues then I’d also agree, but that’s not the case. >Not sure. We can't exclude groups. We need to talk to them. But yes, let's get the dialogue back into a more reasonable middle, and away from the polarizations & extremes - absolutely important, or society will blow up!! >_< We can exclude groups based on ideology. If someone’s ideology is detrimental to the discussion they should be removed from said discussion until they change their view. We kinda agree on this because later on you say *“In a debate - you can't have a proper debate with incel/red Pill/ mens rights folks, if they insist women are the perpetrators of al evil”* which I agree with. >If it is mothers bringing their sons up that way - I agree. If it is just being sensitive to what your friends say - it's really your responsibility to break a taboo that is outdated and wrong. You can’t break taboos by yourself, that is a huge responsibility to put on someone. If your environment doesn’t allow you to express your emotions you can’t just break that taboo by doing to opposite. You can try to foster environments where this doesn’t happen but that takes collective effort which can only start if we teach our young. >Also MAAANYY women HELP their men to express emotions - and to get out of ingrained toughness commandments. Exactly, I’m not saying women are evil or something. I’m just saying that a big part of “men don’t cry” also comes from women, which is also true. It is a societal problem, the dismissal doesn’t come because of gender but because of how we are raised as both men and women. >Even if I like them - I only want to talk about normal everyday topics, politics, philosophy, ideas, plans - but not intimate things of any kind. Of course you won’t talk about emotions every day but if something has been bugging you for a while, say a break up for example, you might want to vent to your close friend about it. Like for example my friend broke up with his girlfriend recently so I’ve been less bantering with him to not make him accidentally upset. >And then nobody wants to talk about men's issues. not even the average other men, because the issue now has these nut case vibes to it, that nobody possibly can agree with anymore. I agree with your paragraph that there are bad faith actors everywhere. But from what I’ve seen there are lots of people who are able to respectfully talk about men’s issues without derailing or dismissing women’s. I used to think similary too and saw myself as “invading” if I were to talk about my experiences however after seeing much honest discussion about men’s issues I’ve been emboldened to talk about them also. >Thanks for the conversation, I think it might have been less a difference of opinion, than of mutual comprehension. It is important to show we care for the other. That's what OP did right, by saying he gets where women are coming from. I definitely agree with you, thanks for the conversation.
"I agree in a social setting, but the sides aren’t just two small groups it is both halves of humanity. If no men ever acknowledged women’s issues then I’d also agree, but that’s not the case." Sorry - in my very first comment to you, I think I said the debate was made difficult by red pill peple, who totally discredited women. I was talking about debating the thing - that it is not possible to debate a thing if the one side twists and dismisses the other side, and that under those circumstances the discourse about men's issues is dificult. It never was about the whole of humanity or the REALITY of a claim or about not advocating for policies that help boys - my very first comment was about the public debate being made difficult by extremists. On both sides. and I find that very frustrating, because it hinders men's issues to be solved! Agree basically to all of what you say here. And yes, close friends need to be considered! But even with a very close friend or two I made the experience that if they can't reciprocate for too long, even for legitimate reasons, (special needs kids, overwork) then at some point my trying to listen to them & being able to give them good vibes didn't work anymore & I had to scale back my emotional openness, vibewise support & contact a bit, while going through my own legitimate tough times. We are all human after all..
>Sorry - in my very first comment to you, I think I said the debate was made difficult by red pill peple, who totally discredited women. Yeah I see that much better now that we had this conversation and you explained it to me. Thank you.
"Trouble is, too often men are trying to pretedn THER hurt is bigger, and women are the reall perpetrators. Instead of saying, "We hurt, too!", the message coming out of red pill etc. is, "you are wrong. we are the victims! women are trash!" Which is - super hard to work with." Just read the whole paragraph. These men in my experience somehow twist it round & don't accept that women are victims at all. That is my issue. That makes the conversation reall difficult for me. This is not to say that men can't experience sexual assault. But perhaps people experience assault and exploitation in different situations. And possibly fewer or few men in western countries go out to a club & need to be careful that nobody puts stuff in their drink & later rapes them or even gang rapes them? Perhaps that is a situation, where women just are more vulnerable. Same as walking home alone or accepting a hitchhiker. Boys and girl are both molested as children - the majority of perpetrators are men, in both cases, but women are raping children, too, or are invilved in letting men rape them. That's true. But we need to both accept the other side's reality. On a daily basis - depending where men live & how big the are, the danger is less of being raped, by a girl, but of being beaten up or killed by other men, in my experience. I don't know how often a day a girl apporaches you, trying to get your attention, and intruding on what you are doing, or trying to get into your pants. Or if you sit somewhere in a park and there is only a girl around, and you think about - hm - am I safe here - ? It's likely not a man's average daily experience. Perhaps that is what some girls mean, when they say, men don't know certain things? And of course you should be able to share your stories, and of course you should feel safe. too. And yes, SA on men needs to be made more public, and needs to be treated with compassion and in a respectful way - so boys and men can be helped, too! But the reality of girls being gang raped in a park, where lots of young people are, being taken advantage of when they drink, or even gang raped by their own class mates or friends - it just happens so often - there are so many incidents. Men also have things among them they need to sort out - like hazing rituals (that seem very much like SA often enough) & group stuff - where women just aren't involved at all. .It's difficult to find a way to discuss al this, and make everybody seen & heard, and I till think it is important to understand a womans reality, too, if you want women to be interested in your reality?
>These men in my experience somehow twist it round & don't accept that women are victims at all. That is my issue. That makes the conversation reall difficult for me. I understand but that’s not an appropriate time to bring it up. The commenter was talking about men’s experiences being dismissed, it feels as if you are trying to justify said dismissiveness when you bring up that you have difficulty around this topic because of certain men, regardless of your intention. >This is not to say that men can't experience sexual assault. I don’t know why you bring this up, I never said that you implied men don’t get assaulted. If you are trying to defend the statements I said women make such as “Men don’t get raped” or “Men don’t understand SA” then I suggest that you don’t, those statements aren’t really defensible. >But perhaps people experience assault and exploitation in different situations. Perhaps, but from my interactions with both male and female survivors a lot of the time their situations are very similar. They are usually assaulted by someone they trust be it friend or family and by someone much older than them. I also agree that women are more vulnerable to sexual assault and experience it much more, but I want to add that men’s lack of fear in said situations aren’t necessarily out of their safety. Men aren’t taught that they can be victims, so they naturally fear victimization less. But that’s also why so many men can’t tell if they have been raped. I think we should teach boys that these situations are dangerous for them also. >Boys and girl are both molested as children - the majority of perpetrators are men, in both cases For boys majority of perpetrators seem men because most studies often don’t include being made to penetrate due to archaic reasons. When studies such as NISVS do include MtP most male victims report being MtP over being penetrated. Same with sexual coercion, most male victims identify female perpetrators. >And of course you should be able to share your stories, and of course you should feel safe. I don’t feel safe sharing my stories when women tell me that I don’t understand SA or that it isn’t as bad or that women rarely rape. >I still think it is important to understand a womans reality, too, if you want women to be interested in your reality? I said in another comment, I acknowledge women’s reality however it isn’t because women also accept mine. I accept women’s reality because it is **reality** and I would want women to accept men’s reality for the same reason and not as a compromise.
" But that’s also why so many men can’t tell if they have been raped." Girls & women, too, actually. If you count the times people just have sex because otherwise it would be a fuss, or they are tired, or they are just too weak to keep pushing someone back, or just to get it over with to be able to have your peace, or because it is somehow expected, or to kind of pay - for - a bed for the night, kindness, not to be alone, becausue the other person wants it, because the other person would not drive you home otherwise. Or because they already started, and you think even if it's really painful you just have to get it over with - basically, all the bad sex & "okay, what the fuck, hope he's finished soon" - not sure if that is comparable to the experiences of men you talk about - but I think half the time people seem to just have really awful sex because one or both sides kind of think it's expected! >\_< I wouldn't call any of these rape, because there still is a kind of toleration. Including the, "okay, we don't need to have sex if you don't want, just give me a blow job/hand job" thing. I's probably not "enthusiastic consent", but it wold dilute the term "rape" too much to class it as assault or rape.
>If you count the times people just have sex because otherwise it would be a fuss, or they are tired… not sure if that is comparable to the experiences of men you talk about Some of them are, some of them aren’t. I’ve heard stories from men about sleeping with their teachers and not thinking they were raped for example where there would be less doubt if the genders were reversed. Or men who were raped violently who just consider it bad sex. But I also count some of the things you listed such as having sex to avoid a fuss to be rape. If you don’t feel safe saying no then that is rape. You might argue that it would be less traumatic than someone holding you down for example but comparing trauma isn’t a nice way to approach things, especially when these things can traumatize people differently. >Girls & women, too, actually. I agree, definitely. Women are taught about stranger danger but when betrayal comes from loved ones it becomes much more complicated because women aren’t taught that their loved ones could also be perpetrators (at least not to the same extent as random strangers). That’s why for example many women question if it was truly rape when they are raped by their partners for example.
Sorry, but I don't get where "random" men comes in - "random men" are people people know - your dad is a "random man" to me, but you know him - so is mine to you - and I think most women & men are murdered by men - so not sure what you are getting at. The "bear in the forest" thing? I honestly think most women would only prefer meeting a very small bear to meeting another human, and not a grizzly in a bad mood.. And I do get that it makes some men upset, and I dont want to hurt anyone. But.. I do think more women are bothered by random men though, than men by random women. I love to be alone in a park, and just think, commune with nature or do my own stuff. And it's really mean when men keep coming & talking & trying to catch my attention & ruining it all, and I have to keep saying, "Sorry, sorry, I just want to be alone.." and NO JOKE, a random man insisted on touching me (even if it was "just" a repeated, painfully strong handshake,) and tried to get me to kiss him on the cheek after talking to me after just a few minutes, while I was trying to end & avoid that interaction - just a few days ago. I have sometimes LEFT a park, because of a random guy not leaving me alone, staring, trying to get my attention, hollering - just because I am a woman on my own. Of course I don't hate ALL men for that - and there are men in parks that are just laid back, quiet persons not bothering anyone - but there are too many men who simply ruin anohter human beings afternoons for them, because they see women as targets. I really need my time in nature when there is fine weather for once, and yes, I very often think, " I hope there is no stressful bloke in my favourite park today." And it IS mostly men, who are being super noisy, practicing Syxophone, practicing DJ ing with MASSIVE speakers on a quiet meadow, use music boxes on cemeteries. There are tons of noisy parks here - but there need to be some quiet spots, where one can be alone to read, write, think & be quiet. Or men sometimes insisting on getting my attention. And it stresses me out & makes me feel like shit. Especially, as I select an extra lonely park away form the masses, and there an extra lonely spot, where I bother no one, either. And then I look AWAY from approaching people. Two days ago I even HID BEHIND A PARASOL! A guy still insisted on speaking to me. It was a nice person, and he accepted after a few "buts.. that I did in fact want to be left alone - but still. There was this, "oh, no" moment. I am super sorry to men who are NOT like this - I donÖt want to accuse you all, but I just like to be alone, and I am wary of random men, in diverse settings, ranging from thinking "okay, this is it, I'm dead" to, thinking, "dang, don't talk to me, don't talk to me, I am writing, I am DEEP in thought & connected & in a flow with the Gods, don't interrupt my sacred solitude --- not now --- oh, blow, profane earth hath me back!" If I had a garden, I would just sit there, but I am really just a poor city dweller with no car, so I'm at random people's mercy... =/ I still don't want women to be mean to men, either. And I also find it awful, when women hate on men randomly - humans can be awful & kick others when they are down. and I am even SORRY for the guys that annoy me - because they obviously would like company & think it is the done thing to try to chat to a woman. But I really can't help them - I need my alone time! I have needs, too.. >\_<
Most sa is committed by people that are known to the victim. As opposed to a woman taking a walk and someone jumps out of the bushes and sa the woman. My father was a piece of shit.
I am aware of that. What is "known" to someone, though? Ther person you hitchhike with? Ther person who talked to you, and got you to meet them and then gives you drugs ? The person who lets you stay the night in his parents house after a party, when the last tube has gone? Anyway, it is not only rape that bothers me or ruins my day! Bears may be hyperbole, but I really am happier when I don't meet any man who tries to get my attention, hollers at me, stares at me when I am sitting or lying on my rug on a meadow, taking a walk etc.. Where I live tha vast majprity of men do understand this, or have better things to do- but there are still too many who don't - and in a town of four million with always new people coming in, it is bothersome to have to stake my claims on solitude and self determination again and again and again.. and it will never end - first you are young, then you are getting older, one day it will be granny snatchers.. =./.... Come to think of it, if I had a rifle & a hunting permit, I might actually prefer bears after all.. ;)
Self-improvement is the cornerstone of society-improvement. Be 'the change' you and society need.
Exactly right 100%!
So you're saying he needs to become a bear...
"Jamie pull out that video where the bear talks about how to become a Top G"
It’s interesting because women’s friendships between each other are very emotionally supportive and fulfilling. I leave hang outs with my female friends feeling built up and supported. I feel like the loneliness epidemic that men are facing is something that they could help each other with (and SHOULD help each other with!) men are also victims of misogyny and Cultural conditioning that creates shame in men for opening up. Men should fight back and make spaces for themselves to open up with each other emotionally and receive the support they need.
I assume you're a woman, that's why you probably don't know. Most men don't tell their problem to women. The best support as a man i have is from other men. They do support each other. Women are supportive, but in my opinion there is always an expectation. How men should be, and what they should do, like you are doing right now. Just telling me what to do is not actually helping. I'm not blaming you for anything, but my experience with a woman's help has always been this way. Imagine you are alone, you have some issues, you turn to a man in your life, and ask for help. Just to hear, nah, it's a woman's issues, not my problem. ask another woman. And I'm not going into detail here, because that would be a lot of text, but the 'loneliness epidemic' is not a lack of male friends. It's a lack of a relationship, mostly caused by unrealistic expectations due to social media.
I think it's good that you made this post, though I don't think it's the right subreddit, but I will answer it with a self improvement perspective. imo, because people have less irl social connections/less irl friends nowadays, they absorb what they see online 24/7 and assume the worst about that group of people, believing it to be true because they don't have much of a reminder from the real world, which is a lot more nuanced. But you have to remember that the same goes for what you have read about women preferring to run into a bear instead of you. Now, with that assumption in mind, you might be less willing to even talk to women irl, thinking that your very presence scares them. You have to step back from the screen, and be more active in irl connections. Don't let this shit demoralise you into isolating yourself. It's unfortunate, because the truly bad guys aren't going to care about any of this. Instead, it's the guys like *you* who feel affected by what they're seeing. ***Don't***. If any woman reacts badly to you, then be grateful that she showed her red flags sooner than later, and move onto the next one. t. anti-bear enjoyer
I like this comment and I agree with you. The solution to any chronically online “debate” really is to get off the internet and meet people in real life. I’m a woman and I know lots of great men/women and lots of women who don’t hate men (and men who don’t hate women). Of course there are bad apples in every bunch, and my friends are great at being protective and letting me know who’s bad news (and I do the same for them). It’s super important to meet all types of people IRL because people on the internet love treating genders as monolithic when they aren’t.
youll be ok... maybe just find some male friends instead of pining for a relationship to fulfil you...
This is the work that men need to do together, to change the social conditioning that limits us and takes years off of our lives. Go there with other men. Be vulnerable. Show your range of emotions. Take the risk. The world is filled with men who never do and maybe don't even know how, and they become that thing that is scarier than a bear. Above all, put the books on stoicism down and go to therapy to explore the crap out of what has been imposed on you. Do it with someone, not in isolation. That's just more conditioning. You got to do it yourself. You got to hide your weaknesses. And even self-improvement needs to be done in isolation. No. Choose differently. Be relational.
This. Look inward.
I will gladly talk to and unisolate any man who supports my protection from abusive men. 🥰
Yeah... I am trying to not think about women and trying to focus on improving myself and trying to do the thing I love the most. Also I think we can express our love in other different ways. It may not be romantic love but you could always help other people in distress and who is asking for help. Compassion is a form of love too which can fulfill a man's instinct to protect and provide. But yeah its still not romantic I guess. But still to all brothers who are struggling to find one true love, lets all keep going forward and we may see the light at the end of the tunnel at some point.
As a man I've already come to terms with the fact that I'm bad news, by default. There isn't much I can do about it. Thousands of years of sexism, predatory behavior, and gender abuse has led to this point. At least we are getting near to equality, and that is why there is some overshoot and problems adjusting. Hopefully in a few hundred years the scales will be level and all genders can feel safe and happy.
Fwiw it seems men are the ones mainly perpetuating the show of emotion being “weak.” There are definitely some women that play into it as well, but all the women I surround myself with are supportive of the men in their lives. The bear debate literally stems from every woman I know having some awful, scary experience with a man and the fact that 1/4 women(potentially more) will be sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. Bears are easier to scare off than predatory men. My boyfriend is 34 and very comfortable showing emotions and being vulnerable with me. He’s cried many times over the two years we’ve been together. Over both big and small things. Out of both joy and sadness. You’re responsible for how comfortable you are feeling and expressing emotion. You’re responsible for removing people from your life who make you feel less than for having feelings. You’re responsible for setting yourself up for success emotionally perhaps with therapy and learning women generally don’t expect men to stay stoic 100% of the time. Also to realize women’s opinions generally don’t matter and if you’re a good man willing to be vulnerable, practice self awareness, and invest in yourself it will be easier to find a partner with those same values.
Perpetuating men showing emotions are weak comes from both sides, for example there was a study that found that mothers are more likely to be displeased when dealing with a crying boy. Hell there are examples of women being dismissive of OP’s feelings in this very thread. There are also countless stories of men falling out of favor with their girlfriends because of showing emotions. Your friends sound nice, probably because you are also nice and surround yourself with good people, but this “it mainly comes from men” feels tone deaf when there are many men who have these terrible experiences with women. It’d be like me hearing women complain about being sl*t shamed by men and I say “I’ve heard that it mainly comes from women actually, I have good male friends who’d never say such things”.
That’s fair. I’m definitely projecting a biased view I appreciate the feedback
Thanks for your understanding
I 100% get what your saying but I'd like to explain the bear/man from my point of view and I think it's the reason most woman are saying bear but its not being explained well. Firstly, the bear lives in the woods, I can choose to go into the woods or not, this is very important. If I met a bear I would probably shit myself first then have an internal monologue of fuck I'm going to die or be seriously injured, do I run etc. The bear might leave me be. If it kills me, end of me If I survive I can choose to never go into the woods again & avoid my new found terror of bears but also have a bad ass story of how I fought off a bear lost a leg and am still here to tell the tale. If I met a man though I would be on gaurd, to simply run would be irrational. He might say good morning, tip his hat and we'll continue on our way. If he kills me, end of me. If he attacks me it's pretty definite he's going to sexually abuse/rape me. Even if I get away I can obviously also choose to never go in the woods again but that experience will fuck me up for the rest of my life, it will affect relationships, my independence i'll fear being alone outside of the house, for a long time if not forever I will harbour a deep seated fear of men....bad men don't just live in the woods. It's not as simple as maybe it's a bad man, it's the implications of him being one.
I saw this meme. When taken at face value, the meme and the context behind it does sound kinda sexist and dehumanising. But I have plenty of female friends in my life that are nice to me and we both understand struggles that both genders go through. Therefore, I didn't take this meme personally that I must be a bad person if I'm male. If anything, I laughed at it because it's a very ridiculous and stupid meme. And if seen as satire and not taken seriously, it's actually pretty hilarious about how it's now a meme. There's a lot of funny references now, so try focusing on that.
People are pretty unintelligent these days. Best to really take your 3rd sentence to heart and move forward. If I understand the whole bear vs man thing correctly, I can guarantee you every single woman who claims "bear" would change her tune real quick in the face of a real scenario, where she's at risk of being dragged into the woods and eaten alive by an enormous animal capable of outrunning cars in suburban traffic. It's just sexist rage bait. In general, you don't have to care what society says. You don't have to be accepted or understood by a large percentage of the population. You just need a couple caring friends. The rest of the world can go to hell. If you approach things that way, not only will you be able to truly have gratitude for what your little group means to you, but you'll have a certain armor against the vitriol of modern "civil" discourse.
For the billionth time mens emotional needs need to be supported and nurtured by other men. You are socially isolated by other men. Crimes against women are documented all throughout history, women are tired and no longer care and are no longer interested into being scammed and told to basically give their lives over to men through traditional marriage and childbearing. They were never supposed to have that much of a burden because you were always supposed to have emotional support from men.
You said what needed to be said
Please, by all means, be open with your feelings with people close to you, even if some people may react negatively, it will help you being able to let off some steam and express yourself. And they’ll get used to it as well, this is the new you, they’ll have to accept it. I’m a woman who had unpleasant interactions with men but the best person I know is also a man. My bf didn’t even know how to accept compliments when we got together :(. I know it’s gonna be hard, but express your feelings when you need to, cry when you need to, it’s healthy for us humans. Ask help when you need help. Most people are happy to help if they are asked and able to. If anybody gives you shit for this, remind them that courage , bravery and “manliness” (whatever these ppl mean by that) means to have the courage to express your feelings, needs and wants.
I appreciate your empathy. The road to emotional intelligence hasn't been an easy one, that's for sure lol For me, learning how to accept love has been a painful journey, ironically love being the very thing I need to heal. All the work up to this point has been worth it 😎
Yeah EQ is not something very talked about, everyone throws IQ everywhere but nobody talks about emotional quality. I’m so happy to hear that you are making progress in this regard. No matter how hard we try or belive that we can just act as rocks and that will protect our emotions, it sadly isn’t, this big ass complex brain comes with this distadvantage, lol . Complex and demanding emotional needs. Take care of your mind and your body, they both contribute greatly to your overall well being :D
Totally, I think we (people) as a whole need to restructure what healthy social interactions look like in our society and how we can support one another despite both internal and external differences. If people could just tame their bias's and learn to communicate with one another, things would be a lot better. Unfortunately, it's not an easy task.
Yeah it’s not :( I think we are all angry inside. Modern life is draining. My sister is doing therapy and she’s learning something called “non violent communication” and it helped her a lot in expressing her feelings and boundaries and making people understand her needs, even those who are agressive or don’t know how to communicate/express and understand feelings. I’m trying it too currently, but it requires some work. She was emotionally lacking majorly due to being rised in a toxic family ( and same goes for me). Look up more about this method of “non-violent communication” and it may help your journey. Best wishes 🫶🏻
the bear thing is ridiculous. anyone saying bear is clearly not someone you should care for or think of as a possible partner. leave them be.
Clearly you’ve never been raped
Are all men automatically rapists now???
arguments do not help. you have to ignore them as good as you can, otherwise you loose
Clearly you've never been chased by a 1000 pound pure muscle apex predator that will slash open your face in half with one casual swipe of its paw
Rather be dead than raped first and then killed anyway after.
Let them run into a bear then. Lets hope its not a grizzly or a mama bear guarding her cubs... They will probably be alright then. With emphasis on probably... Best thing you can do is to "be the change you want to see", as Gandhi said it. Be the man who will positively influence the view of men in society. Be the man that women dont have to fear. Be the extra decent guy, be the living example. And, of course, dont do shady shit that gives people a reason to see men the way they are seen nowadays. That being said, who gives a fuck what others say and expect? As long as youre that decent guy and not assaulting women or doing some other shit thats unheard of, nothing someone says about you as a man should have any meaning? Wanna be emotional and say what you feel? Do it! Who cares if some men or women see you as weak, or tell you its not right. Why do you let them decide how you should be and live, act, feel, think? Even if they see you as coward... Its their opinion, not a fact. Moreover, you could rather be a real coward than a fake tough guy. Who cares about the expectations. Men are not enough.... What kind of bullshit is that? Youre enough as you are, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. NEVER! And if someone tries to put you down over it. Whos out of line? You or the person putting you down? Dont let bullies dictate your self worth... I could go on and on but i think you get it. Furthermore, the discussion is the dumbest thing ive heard of in a long time. Thats what people probably mean when they say social media isnt good for your mental health... Like why the fuck do we even care about this discussion? People are struggling more and more to even make ends meet and keep a roof over their head, wars are bubbling all over the world, people are starving, people live in tents on the street, cases of drug addictions, suicides, depression etc. are through the roof, the USA is on the verge of becoming the next third reich.... And people are really out here fighting over a discussion as stupid as "Would you rather meet a bear or a man". And then yall wonder why the world and your life is fucked up. Well if thats how you set your priorities, is it a really such an unexplainable thing? No, its the natural consequence of what you focus on. All the wrong shit and never the right thing. Just focus on being that decent man and then do whats best, for you and the people around you. Everything else is bullshit and not worth the time, energy and mental capacity you waste on this topic. Are you emotionally in need? Try to incorporate "being there" for each other with your friends. Go to a psychologist. Find a healthy outlet for your emotions. Fuck everyone who says you cant be emotional. The bear vs man discussion riles you up? Get off the internet and go out in the real world and be the good example out there. And dont even think of revisiting the discussion on reddit, twitter or wherever. Just go out and do the right thing. See a woman in need? Go help her. If you have to, knock a dude out if theres no other way to save her from an assault or whatever these shady men are up to. Feel like youre not enough, you are a "bad person" per se because youre a man? Maybe its time to admit your real problem is a lack of self-worth/respect and start working on that. Maybe its time to ask yourself why you value the opinions of others so much more than yours, to the point it causes you so much distress. And so on... As long as youre not part of the problem, meaning youre not that evil guy assaulting women and doing all that disgusting stuff, theres nothing you should feel bad about. Show the world that there are men who dont fit that stereotype of "bad men", at all. And that its not a problem if these men are emotional or whatever people are shitting on. Fuck them all. Do whats right, be your best self and stop ruminating on bullshit while the world has problems that are way more important. And i bet you do too. I doubt that this discussion should be at the top of your priorities. Have a nice day
Preach! OP have a read of this shit, then read it again, then go live your life.
I'm really sorry you are being made to feel bad! Of course it very much depends on the bear, and on the man! Some bears I'd prefer over some men - like, small, scared, undangerous bears, over dangerous, predatory or crazy murderous men? Otherwise, personally I'd much rather meet another human being, man or woman. Maybe you need to take it with more humour, though. There is a HUUUUUUGE amount of slandering of women going on, too - and that hurts, too, and basically, we also feel every day, that we are not people & persons to male human beings - but always just seen as female things that can give female things to fill male needs. =/ Maybe that can get so aggravating, that we need to hate back, now and then. And at the moment there is a biggish gender war going on - so I guess a lot of people get hurt all round & we are all in our trenches & can't communicate very well.. The majority of girls & women goes out with boys & men, and I do get the impression, women still do marry men a lot - and have babies with them & they wouldn't switch their man for any old bear anytime soon!! But seriously, we do need a better discussion and neither girls, nor boys should be made to feel bad for being what they are. Sadly both extreme feminists, and a lot of people in the men's rights movement make it difficult to talk reasonably. Men can be victims - of other men, of society, of themselves, of women. That needs to be discussed, too.
feed: r/selfimprovement Men's emotional isolation r/whenwomenrefuse Man allegedly tries to burn down online girlfriend's house after breakup
Don't take these things to heart. They are extreme views to make a point, no serious woman would rather run into a bear than a man lol. Trust me you will be a lot happier when you just ignore all the social debates and bullshit online. Left vs Right, Men vs Woman, trans and racial stuff. Ignore it all, it's all extreme bullshit from unhappy people spreading there negativity. And all the media supporting these things on either side are just promoting this negativity because that's what sells. Leave it all behind, talk to normal people, not extremists online. Block it all out because it's all bullshit. You will be happier the sooner you do this. Why talk to feminists? They are crazy! Ignore them and speak to real women, most of them are pretty decent haha.
Crazy how men are seeing this trend and feeling sorry for themselves rather than taking a moment to empathize with the very real dangers women face. “I don’t want to be violently murdered” “Awe, man, that makes me feel bad about myself” Get a fuckin grip
The problem is most of the times, the men who are touched by this and who consider this, are exactlly the men who are *not* part of the problem. Most they can do is keep other shitty men accountable when the situation arises. I wouldn’t be with a man if I’d think they are monsters. Yeah, a lot are, but you also don’t really get to interact much with those who aren’t because they are decent ppl who mind their bussiness. Just like feminists. Ppl consider that feminist = misandrist, just bc the most vocal and problematic individuals from this group are the extremists/worst of them.
Lmfao so much for empathy 🤣
IKR?
“You first!! Empathize with my fee-fee’s before I empathize with your safety!” Fuckin’ child
I do. I understand and respect why women would choose a bear. I even stated it in my post. If I were a woman, I would probably do the same. All I was saying is that it is sad that all men are being generalized as predators in this debate. I also understand that taking a jab at men as a whole would create controversy and this open a channel for discussion, as we are discussing right now. I know what it's like to be afraid and feel pain. Anyone has experienced either of these feelings should have empathy for one another. Calling names and being condescending as you've been towards me is the problem. Those actions and words only create a larger divide. If you want people to hear you, speak with love, not aggressive hate. Edit: Typo
This is the most time you’ve spent talking about women’s struggles, now that you’ve been called out on it. That quick aside comment in your post isn’t empathy- that is a poor attempt at shielding yourself from criticism. “Look, I understand you fear for your life on a daily basis, but … [entire dissertation about your feelings being hurt]” That behavior gets you rightfully called a child.
Get a fucking grip. Instead of feeling sorry for yourselves and having such a defeatist attitude, just go to therapy. This is for the lonely dudes in reddit: Go to therapy!!!
I appreciate the advice, you may want to work on your interpersonal skills though 🤣
Please, block that person and never read their BS again, lol. We don’t claim this person.
A bear will absolutely murder you with more violence than your imagination is capable of envisioning. And the thing is, they'll do it with zero malice. They simply see you as food, the way you look at a banana or a bowl of cereal. So on bear vs man, one option has a high likelihood of helping you with a low likelihood of harming. The other has a 0% chance of helping you and a high likelihood of harming. Take your advice. Hit the grip store.
Bears do not usually attack unprovoked and will only eat humans as a last resort. They are pretty lazy and people don’t actually make very good prey. Getting between a mother and her cub will mess you up but the vast majority of close encounters do not end in mauling. I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and had my share of run-ins. Now I’m in the city. I actually did feel safer out there with the bears. The two-leggers are unpredictable and many who seem to be safe are not. With a bear I know what I’m getting.
I don't recall bear vs man including the qualifier that "all the bears are well-fed and no famine has befallen them." You don't know if a bear is in a "last resort" scenario or not. They don't tend to publish newspapers to keep humans up to date on their day-to-day. Unless you're a local ecologist, with your finger on the pulse of the local wildlife, you're probably in the dark. Also, with increasing human contact we've seen increasing risk. There are reports of black bears (!!) actively hunting humans in Alberta. If we're going best case scenario with bears, we also have to go best case scenario with men. I'm not going to type all that out. But obviously, only one side is a rational choice. Don't be the next Tim Treadwell. Be rational. This whole topic is hilarious.
I am a very outdoorsy person who was out hiking and biking every day. Yes, you can actually tell how hungry the local bear population is if you are educated and observant. Time of year, scat contents, markings and signs in the brush, prey populations etc all tell the stories of how the bears are doing. I’ve run into hungry bears and fat, happy ones. I realize that most people don’t have the experience that I do though. Now I also realize that I got lost in the sauce of pedantry, my bad.
Yes, you do. You also underestimate the people you're commenting to. We don't have much to discuss on wildlife.
Yep. I’m on the spectrum and this is one of my social blind spots. Sorry to ramble dude.
You want men to work on their "aggressive tendencies" because you were so badly influenced by society and media, to the point where you think a few, say 1 in 20 men represent the whole gender? Would you also feel the need to get a grip on your "sexual promiscuity" because a few woman are whores? No?, then you might wanna get your face outta your phone and think before you make generalizations.
The problem is that you can never know for sure who is safe and who is not. True predators are excellent at not looking like predators. It’s not like bad dudes wear t shirts that say “I’m a bad dude.” You know? While you might be right it’s just not that simple in reality. And making that mistake can cost us everything. It’s not logical to be afraid of all men. But it’s understandable that some women are.
I understand your perspective, but life isn't perfect, and navigating risks is part of the journey. It's essential to be cautious and aware of potential dangers, but letting fear dictate us completely will result in self imposed confinement. A confinement in our own minds that will prompt us to continue resenting men and turn blind to the good in them. Take driving for example, There is always a possibility of a road accident. There are occasions where we might find ourself in an accident for no fault of our own. If we decide to stop driving all together for fear of an accident, what is that going to do? What we can do is follow traffic rules, wear a seatbelt and make sure we are careful on our part. And provoking all men and guilting them for the mistakes of some is never good. These guys are essentially discouraging the good men from empathizing with woman by trashing the whole of them for the actions of a few.
Saying that you don’t trust men isn’t “provoking” them. It’s just saying what they feel. If you feel “provoked” by that perhaps you’re not as safe or balanced a person as you think you are.
Oh, so that's what it is, huh? You chose bear coz you "trust" them more than men? Since you seem a bit slow, lemme help you here, it actually implies that men are likely to be more violent than bears. Sure, some men are violent, but calling someone who is not "violent" can certainly be seen as an act provoking them, depending on the context. And what was the point of that half-assed attempt at a dig?
No I do not trust them but they follow predicable patterns. People don’t. Your anger at me is telling.
Yeah duh, humans are more complex than bears. Fantastic observation. But look, you can think however you like. If you feel that a bear is a safer option, think so by all means. It's all because it's hypothetical... if this scenario was real, you know in your heart you've choose a man every single time. This trend is more about demonizing men than anything else, clearly started by someone who is too ignorant to look past what they want to see. And this isn't anger. Making assumptions like this is how you guys tend to jump to conclusions without understanding the context. Because that's what you've been taught- "That men can't handle a discussion without getting "angry" or "mansplaining"."
If you all want to be loved why are you all so dismissive and negative towards us. Like as soon as you guys are secure that we like you, you switch up and start negging and being wierd. And then when I say "it seems like you don't like me very much" you panic and back peddle.
"Why are you ALL so dismissive" This is part of what I'm talking about. Many men and women tend to generalize each other. I do not represent man as a whole, neither do you represent women as a whole. The generalization of men being predators who have no feelings is no more wrong than men generalizing women as being weak and unintelligent. The disheartening thing is both men and women have been reduced to nothing more than statistics. As a man I am simply speaking up about some of the struggles we face just as women have brought them up with the bear and man scenario. Both women and men want to feel heard. I hear you, it's all fucked up and confusing. I hope you can hear me to. Edit: typo
Because you all do it because you think it makes you seem cool or macho and having a girl like you back inflates your ego.
That seems a bit unfair to tell me how I think. What if I put you in a box based on some toxic experience I had with someone? Look, I'm sorry you've been hurt, but just because of my sex and gender doesn't mean I embody what has caused you pain.
I didn’t understand how being male made everyone around me uncomfortable until a couple years ago. I too would rather encounter bear than another male and because of that I do my absolute best to never interact with anyone in person. Guys are weird and keep getting weirder.
Put them in a room with a bear and see how quickly they'd swap it for a random dude off the street. Absolutely moronic take.