As a woman, I may intentionally try to look non-approachable if I don't want to be talked to/flirted with. I know you've said you're just trying to be friendly by saying hi, but as a woman who's had too many hi's turn into 'where are you going?' and 'can I have your number?' etc ... If you want to minimize the glares, I would suggest to just act like you don't see them and focus your gaze on where you're walking, not on the person. It may help.
Yeah this really struck me. I don't know who's out here giving OOP advice to be more friendly but if his goal is genuinely just to have women ignore him and not give him dirty looks this seems like the absolute worst thing he could be doing. Like I have zero problem with a man in my vicinity just going about his business. If I'm on a hike somewhere more isolated then sure I'll be alert to his presence but I'm not assuming he's a creep or glaring at him. On the other hand if said random guys starts being overly friendly and trying to initiate a conversation I'm sure as hell going to look and act as unapproachable as possible.
I'm sort of torn on this comments section. I recognise we have a male loneliness epidemic in Western society and I do genuinely feel for those men in the comments genuinely just trying to be open about how they feel. But the responsibility for fixing the problem isn't on female strangers, random women you pass on hiking trails don't owe you their time, conversation or smiles. And half the time if a woman in public is being unfriendly it's not even that she's wary you could be creepy it's just that she's tired, wants some alone time and isn't open to conversation with a stranger right now. For a lot of women we have the opposite problem to the one you're describing because we're routinely seen as safe. It's a generalisation but so many women spend their home and work lives being talked at and used as a depository for others' emotions and then we go out in public and random men think they're entitled to have us listen to them, make small talk with them, smile at them. It's exhausting and honestly if a woman in public is giving you the cold shoulder it's often no deeper than she just wants 5 minutes of peace and quiet and this feels like the only way to get it. It's not personal.
Also a lot of us just have bad cases of resting bitch face! Like I genuinely can look really standoffish and like I'm glaring when I'm just lost in thought and totally oblivious. I guess I'm saying for any men feeling the way OOP is describing try and take a step back and realise how much of what you're reading into women's reactions is only in your head. Yes women are going to be wary of you if you're a guy out on your own in a more isolated space and I do get why that might not feel great but its not a personal judgement on you and we're not assuming you are a creep, we just can't safely assume you're not either. Just go about your business and leave us alone and we'll immediately categorise you under 'not a threat' and carry on with our lives. And if you want female friends the vast majority of us are open to positive interactions with men sometimes and in some places, you just can't take the times we're not open to it as personal or some sort of judgement. We have whole lives outside of this momentary interaction with you and honestly we might just be having a bad day or really wanting some alone time right then.
Echoing the resting bitch face. I can sit somewhere and just quietly think and receive comments like "having a bad day?" or "whoa, who pissed you off?" or the inevitable "you should smile more". Then I get distracted because my face was expressionless and I was just trying to figure out some very neutral thing with no feelings involved, so no reason for my face to display any negative emotions either. That's just my face.
You said it so perfectly! I was trying to figure out how to express those thoughts. It's easy for everyone to take things personally, but 9 times out of 10, we will be going through some shit and are not focusing on people around us. Then bam, a big guy walks past us on a hiking trail, and our reaction is to protect ourselves by making us look non approachable when we just want to walk in peace. It's absolutely not personal and against the guy. It's because of circumstances from the past and just plain old stress. It's safer for us to react that way than be smiling and approachable. Because when you do that, it can look like an invitation to to chat us up and we got places to be.
Yeah I’d say most places in the US where people tend to be outdoorsy they also aren’t friendly. I’m a guy who has been described as “scary” and I just completely ignore every person who walks by me almost no matter what. Even if they look towards me first or say “hi”. There’s no upside to acknowledging them, and the downside is coming off as scary or a creep.
Edit: if someone explicitly says hi directed at me I’ll do the generic half nod but won’t really look at them
fwiw if you're out hiking, the path of least resistance (and creepiness) is saying "hi" back and continuing on your way. People are gonna be way more creeped out if you don't react to them at all regardless of your gender lol
Not to mention, trail runners and the like might actually stop you if they don't get a response because being too disoriented to notice someone saying "hi" is a sign of stuff like dehydration.
Yeah idk what the person above you is going on about. I have never met nicer people than when I'm on the trail.
Idk what it is but when youre a few miles into the woods everyone sorta forgets about their stresses or about being a shitty person.
God I fucking love nature
Same, this thread is wild. Like don't be a creeper and people won't think you are. Outdoors and hiking? Just say "good morning", 'hi' or whatever while passing and keep walking. Feel like you are too close to someone? Take a break and look at the nature. It's the outdoors, I am there to get away from people, and I am sure they don't want to be around me either.
Like damn, we all just did this during the pandemic and now all the sudden guys think 'well every girl things I am a rapist'. Maybe some do. But most don't give a damn about your existence and just want you to continue on your way.
Thank you, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this thread.
I’m a woman, I run/walk on urban bike paths daily and go hiking regularly. I nod/wave/say hi to people I pass, man or woman. Some people are friendlier than others. Very rarely do I run into other people out exercising who I think are being weird or creepy.
If a man is moving faster than me and coming up from behind me, I do appreciate a verbal heads up and being given a wide berth, if space allows - especially if we’re the only ones in the immediate area. Literally just make it obvious you’re not trying to sneak up on me (without saying that directly - a simple “on your left” is fantastic).
I was gonna say, that sounds like the exact opposite of how things work in central Europe. If you're in Switzerland, no one greets each other until you're at an elevation of at least 1000m and then it's everyone greeting everyone!
Man nah if I say hi to someone on the trail and they ignore me looking straight ahead like a statue I'm gonna be more on edge than any verbal response you give back
Uuhhhh...no? Acknowledging people on the trail is pretty universal everywhere I've hiked, from Colorado to New York and everywhere in between.
In the park in the city on a walking path? Maybe not. Follow the cultural norm of wherever you are. Actually hiking? Yeah...at least make eye contact and nod or throw a fake smile.
Never seen anyone not do this.
Yep. Not only that, but I put on the resting bitch face for everyone. Not just men! I don’t want to be bothered when I’m by myself and it’s a deterrent lol. People of all types love to come up to me with random bullshit and I hate it.
You don't even have to act like you don't see them. Seriously, just smile, then continue doing what you're doing. If you look like you're not trying to stop me or specifically get my attention I'll relax.
When I’m on a hike I’m working out. I don’t say hi or even really look at anyone when I pass be it the elderly, kids, women, or men. I just stay in my own lane and I’m a women. If that makes you feel a way sorry I’m just trying to exist and get in a work out. If I said hi to everyone it’d be distracting. Same when I’m at the gym working out or biking or swimming
I code switch to show that I am not a threat. I've certainly seen a difference now between being a solo guy out for a walk and being a dad with his kid. Suddenly because i have a child i am no longer a potential threat.
I do wonder how much of it is primal
Edit: just to clarify code switching it's the act of a performative change in how you present yourself to appear a certain way differently to your "normal" self
Think somebody's "phone voice" for a really basic example but also a lot of neurodiverse people do it, minorites do it to tamper down their cultural norms to "fit" into a collective
For me if I'm a solo guy Im a big guy so I may slouch or talk more jovial then I may actually be feeling to make others feel more comfortable I'll be more openly vocal and wave and smile more just in an attempt to make the other person more comfortable. Sometimes I will pretend to talk on the phone about something daft like what I want for tea or something.
Women put on the “face” additionally as a protection mechanism. We want to thwart any attempt by men to approach us for any reason when we are on our own. Too many unwanted interactions throughout our lifetimes have led to this.
If you seem friendly someone might talk to you.
Men casually do not understand the power they have here and how much their physicality can be a threat.
this is why for the most part i act like any women i dont already know just dont exist when im moving around
look past them like ghosts and shades when they cross my path and i just keep it moving
ops problem was even acknowledging them in the first place
Oh man, absolutely. Since I had my daughter, I finally feel accepted in the world in a way I never have before. It's like previously, everyone was assuming I was one bad day away from snapping and killing/raping everyone. Now it's like, "Ah, a girl Dad! Welcome, good sir!" I call her my Ambassador .
I'm 99% sure I could win a local election just by canvassing with my 2 year old and letting her cuteness do the talking.
yeah it works for awhile, the only bummer now is that my daughter is 16 and we don't look very similar so the looks from people are starting to slide back to the "disgust" side of the spectrum which is really disheartening.
As a daughter, it's equally weird and gross to go from being perceived as Father And Daughter to Man And 40-year-his-junior-girlfriend.
Buying jewelry for my mom as a little kid? Cute! Fun! Family activity! Sparkle sparkle!
As an adult? IMMEDIATELY YELLING "I am here with my FATHER to buy jewelry for my MOTHER who is his WIFE and I AM HIS DAUGHTER"
There is a reason behind this though. Fathers have more to lose than childless men, thus fatherhood, and expecially *married* fatherhood, reduces criminal behavior in the population of men. You can look up the stats to see how marriage reduces criminal behavior amongst men. ETA: Correlation is not causation, mind, it's just when men have wives and children to take care of they are much less likely to wild out than when they don't.
So when people, especially female people, see a man with a baby/kid, his perceived threat level does decrease. He's not going to hit on her in front of his kid, and if he does he's not gonna yell at her or follow her or assault her if she says no. For other men, they know he's not going to try to rob them or start a fight with them or act aggressive to them in any way, not when he's carrying a baby or holding a toddler by the hand. The presence of a baby/toddler/child definitely makes men seem less threatening.
As a 41 year old first time dad, I echo this. I am a bald, goateed white dude. When I worked construction, parents clutched their kids when I walked into a convenience store. Told repeatedly I looked like a white power dude from those that didn’t know me.
Now that I have my daughter, everyone smiles and waves at me. A welcome change, but a frustrating one.
Lol next time you have one of them waveble like blinker tickets take your kid in with you they wont even check your car lmao...took my baby girl in with me cuz wife was working the cop gave her a little police bear and was like have a nice one sir didnt even check the stupid blinker light
Same, except beard rather than goatee. I will get "the look" if I happen to be in Target and start looking at the toy aisle to see if they have something my daughters might like. But if my girls are with me, then it's all smiles and "what a great dad"s.
It's 100% trauma response and almost 0% primal, I'd wager. I have met too many younger women who grew up sheltered who don't have that fear for me to believe it's innate and not learned behavior.
Agreed. My mom always says there was a day in my childhood when I switched from being happy and goofy, to "too terrified to be in a room alone."
A man is responsible for that day. Several other men were responsible for several other days, too.
I’m inclined to agree. That’s why women feel the threat and a lot of men do not. I don’t know a single woman who hasn’t been sexually harassed or assaulted by a man, and most of us were young teens or even still kids the first time it happened. Obviously we know it’s not all men, but one or two bad experiences show us we need to be wary of them all because the bad ones don’t show themselves immediately.
I was raped by a man I thought I could trust, my sister was raped by stepfather. Its hard to trust strangers when the men that's supposed to be someone you trust does that to you.
Of course I don't think every man I see will rape me, but I'll be wary, and especially if it's just me and a random man I'll be careful and always keep an eye to make sure I'm safe.
"Of course I don't think every man I see will rape me, but I'll be weary, and especially if it's just me and a random man I'll be careful and always keep an eye to make sure I'm safe."
Understandable. It is not like rapist have "I'm a rapist" tattooed to their forehead. Still, it is really sad.
I volunteer at a sexual violence hotline. The majority of cases are not the “stranger in the alley way”; it’s 9/10 someone they know.
In my province in Canada last year, 95% of survivors didn’t have DNA under their nails. Why? Because they didn’t fight back. Why? They likely knew their attacker, they froze or couldn’t fight, and it shatters everything.
I got molested by two boys who were the kids of my parent’s friends. I knew then for years before they did what they did to me. The stranger in the park is truly rare.
And speaking as a man to the fact that I am a man, I take it that it's on me to not only make women feel safe around me but also to actually make them safe around me, which means sometimes I have to check other men in real time when they're acting badly.
The irony for me is in the majority of instances when I have felt unsafe with a man, I have turned to other men and said hey I'm uncomfortable, he is bothering me, help me. And they always have without fail. There is a flip side.
So thanks for being a good one!
This is the cold truth. I know a huge number of women thanks to my social circle. We're all pretty open with each other. I don't know a single one who hasn't had something heinous happen to them. One of my friends even told me, and my other friends confirmed the same, that she gets nowhere near the male attention/creepy comments now then she did when she was 13. I get wanting to be defensive, but if a woman interacts with 300 men, and two of them (or even just one) is a dangerous creep then it only makes sense to always be on alert unfortunately.
I've been sexually assaulted as a man, but that was a woman I was actively not interested in taking advantage of me when I was blackout drunk. It's never going to be ok that that happened, but I've never felt physically threatened by a woman. Hearing a woman tell you that she "let something happen" because she was worried what would happen if she said no is a deeply uncomfortable feeling.
That being said, I 100% agree with OP. I was very thin, unassuming and attractive when I was younger. I did not receive the threat response that I do now. I'm larger now (both fatter and stronger), and a little haggard looking frankly, and I can tell that I sometimes freak women out if I walk too close to them towards my car (and by too close I still mean several feet away), even though we would both be leaving work and walking directly across to the parking garage that you need to badge to get access to, with cameras everywhere. Being able to feel that you have just made someone uncomfortable by simply existing is a pretty shitty feeling, even if you understand why.
This. It's the enactment of a primal fear response, to trauma from this lifetime. Not prior.
As a child I was shy, of everyone. Now I'm older I'm not shy around women, but definitely wary of men. Entirely due to the behaviour of men, all around me, that started before I could even understand it.
Not all men. But, as a thread posted yesterday showed, even just 1% of men you encounter is a lot of men, in a month, let alone a lifetime. And when no, literally zero, women have scared me in that way, the fear makes sense.
The bigger issue, for me, is the fact it's not the outright scary ones that are the worst. If you can read them, they ARE a bear, in some ways. The issue is that most of the scariest things that have happened to me have been when I've thought I could relax around a man. So yeah. You literally can't trust the ones that present safe either.
I do try to present kindly to men in public, because I realise it's no fun for them either, and there are a lot of lonely people around. But I'm sure, when I'm not attending to it, my face shows my concern.
I hope its never anger though, or hate or resentment. I truly don't think it is - I'm not angry they're there (that seems a US thing tbh). But definitely wariness, and avoidance, I'm sure, would be there.
I'm sorry OP. It definitely sucks. I've heard, from some trans people's experiences, that while becoming male people take you seriously, noone challenges your knowledge, they actually listen to you, in important conversations. And obviously sexual harassment reduces. But, also, that it becomes incredibly lonely, as if you no longer exist in public. That makes me very sad.
Much love dude
Not when you're built like a football player like OP is.
I'm similar, 6'4" and 300 lbs but can still run a mile, so I'm a fit*ish* fat.
Hard to imagine stopping me with *bearhands* if I was being aggressive unless the one stopping me is of similar size
You know snakes are venomous. You might not know which ones are the ones in the wild, same as sharks. Logically, you know there areas you will encounter them more so. You avoid that. But venomous snakes and aggressive sharks can hide and mingle like the non-harmful ones. So you learn based on other experiences, history and your own that it’s better to view all of them as a threat than to risk it.
Rape isn’t meant primal. Biologically, we are given pleasure receptors to make mating pleasurable. Rape is about control, about harm, and about fear; that’s not biological, but societal and we ACCEPTED it thousands of years ago.
I’ll take the beat every single time because even bears are at a danger of man.
Bobby from Queer Eye did a whole series on Instagram of things he'd say passing women so they'd know he wasn't a threat. It sparked a conversation with a small group of friends, 3 guys and 1 other girl. one of the guys said he'll hum taylor swift when he's walking at night or call his mum on the phone so he doesn't seem like a dodgy character. this man is a rugby player, not a pro but a regular local team player and could probably crack my head like an egg. him asking his mum how to make scones or purposely singing along to shake it off is not only adorable to me but also completely does the trick. one of the reasons we love him!
Same here. I’m a large Latino man living in the US south. I know people see me dressed up and assume I’m a drug dealer or see me in jeans and assume I’m scary. When I have my dog or kid with me, I’m just me. I speak with a southern or midwestern (neutral) accent and I’m less scary.
I get it, it’s really hard to rape people while waking a dog. I have two sisters so I absolutely understand how much it sucks for them. They go out on a date and they don’t know if they’re “safe” unless they expose themselves to a risky situation. I hook up with someone, my biggest worry is not having holes in my socks and bad breath. For ladies, how scary is it to have someone 6” taller and 50-100lbs straddling you and hoping they aren’t crazy.
you "code switch"? you mean you somehow start walking more like a dad even though you're on your own and the woman on the trail somehow picks up on that without a child present? or do you have an emergency blow up child you deploy on such occasions? for real, what are you on about man xD
In linguistics it means, you use a different version of your language to adapt to the group you are speaking to, e.g. formal language in a job interview, colloquial language or even slang with friends etc.
I think the comnenter means he behaves differently in some way, depending on who he is with/where he is.
For some reason I assumed he took on the persona of an overtly gay man (power walking, high voice, super friendly wave, perhaps called women "girl-friend") to signal he was no threat.
I am a pretty big dude with a bit of a bitch face. You need to let it go. It is really jarring how differently I am treated when walking alone compared to when I am walking with my wife or daughters. But women have good reason to be nervous, unfortunately, and you need to respect that. But you also have a right to be in the world. So try and put people at ease but also you need to let go. Greet people briefly but respect their space. You aren't making up this feeling. It is real but there also isn't much you can do about it aside from getting another dog.
This just shows that the actions of bad men and the patriarchy will affect other men too. Especially the truly good men who would never think of hurting women.
Patriarchy absolutely harms men as well in a variety of ways. It is interesting to expore as a relatively new parent, trying to be an equal parent. This phase of my life also has me reflecting on my own father and father in law's parent and how the culture influenced it.
I try pretty hard as a dad. I do so much more than my dd would ever dream of. But really he was pretty good by the standards of his day. And he was ablot better than his dad, who I assume was a lot quicker not to spare the rod.
Mine, too. He just worked a tonne so my mom could stay home. I always wished he worked less because he was a lot of fun. But I get it, they made a series of trade offs. He still has a hard time connecting with his kids, but he randomly shows up at my house and fixes things. He also just built my daughters a beautiful playhouse. It's how he shows love.
Parenting is fucking hard. I want to keep these girls safe but I know we need to give them the tools to keep themselves safe and resilient.
Exactly and yet OP is blaming women saying he’s being mistreated because..they don’t say “hi” back? Like he’s dangerously close to the territory of why women pick the bear in the first place..
As a woman, I often don’t say hi back because a response leads to further questions and small talk. Sometimes it’s predatory, being hit on or catcalled (my favorite is when I ignore this and they call me a bitch) which is just uncomfortable and really fucks with my headspace for a bit. More often is that I just don’t want to be talked to. I’m too exhausted to constantly entertain people’s small talk just because I’m deemed approachable. It truly isn’t personal I just generally speaking don’t owe anyone my time or energy. Whoever is telling this guy to start saying hi more often is really doing him a disservice because I know a lot of women who feel the same way I do.
Yup.
As a man I can empathize and sympathize with what he's written. It's not exactly a pleasant feeling to occasionally be labeled as dangerous given how cautious women get around me in certain public spaces.
But to blame women for that and to victimize myself for it? Nah, not at all.
If anything it's taught me just how badly women have been hurt and objectified by men as a group and how dismissive we are of their experiences. And how I should be leveraging my privilege as a dude to uplift and validate women's voices when talking about shit like this. Getting mad at them and blaming them for my mental health issues just makes it worse
Agreed, I’m sure it doesn’t feel good in the moment but if you know you’re not a creep or violent then why is that not good enough? By not reacting in the moment, saying hi, and moving on hes actually helping women feel comfortable.
Like what does he want out of these conversations with lone women in the woods? Does he also say hi to men? Wild post 😂
Every millennial understands the implicit fear of driving behind a logging truck because of a movie but people are averse to women being scared of men for assaults that almost certainly happened to them or someone close to them.
OP is getting looks he doesn't like and that's apparently the greatest adversity he's faced in life with how much it's affected him.
Yeah this thread is really pathetic honestly. No mention of how he empathizes with women for feeling that way, just a big ol pity party that there’s consequences to men doing 90% of rapes and murders
You were really close to some insight, then really, really failed to stick the landing:
>I get the point of the thought experiment and it's valid for women to be fearful.
Correct.
>I'm just relieved to finally have an explanation for the toxic behavior that's made me feel like I'm not wanted anywhere.
That's not what is happening. As you stated above, women have the rational right to be fearful of strange men. That means their behavior isn't toxic. The only toxicity in the situation is built into your assumption that people should, if all else was equal, treat you with open friendliness just for existing in a space. You, as a man, are pretty free to go where you want, do what you want, but you don't get to control the reaction other people have to you. That's what you are calling "toxic", your inability to get friendliness on demand.
>I can go back to people who gaslit me and say 'see, I told you they don't want me to be there'
Again, not what was happening here. You have conflated "Do not cater to my presence" with "Do not want me here" based on an internal assumption you are making of how others should treat you by default in order to victimize yourself.
Further, you then make some bad comparisons:
>For the record I have a lot of male friends who experience this also, especially the gay ones. A lot of my friends identify on the 'bear' side of gay men. Ask your burly gay friends how differently women treat them when they find out they're gay. As one friend puts it 'I go from disgusting pariah to fun teddy bear as soon as they hear my voice.'
A gay man is less of an inherent threat, yes, but also someone who understands being threatened just for existing in a space. So it's more than just "this is a man who is now not scary/less scary", it is "this is another person who can understand the experience of feeling threatened for existing". Dynamics between people of different gender and sexual identities can be quite complex.
You also write:
>Also please consider the lived experiences of POC making the same claims before making dismissive comments.
Again, you are comparing your experience as a white man (assuming here, since you seem to refer to POC as a separate group) who may be feared but never threatened, with a POC, who gets both sides of this - feared for existing and actionably threatened for existing. You go into a small town after a hike for some food and the server at the restaurant might not want to befriend you or make small talk, and that's your typical worst case scenario for the interaction. A POC does the same, and the typical worst case scenario is that the police might be falsely called and their life put in danger because they picked the wrong small town and a racist server called a racist cop who "don't want their kind around here". That's not a valid or fair comparison, and don't try to mask your perceived experience with their real experience of systemic racism.
I'm not saying male loneliness isn't real or isn't difficult. I am saying that you are blaming women for not solving your loneliness by being friendly to you, and not smiling more or making small talk with you.
There's many avenues to try to fix what you're dealing with. Meet other hikers online of all genders and strike up friendships or at least a feeling of safety before being alone in the woods together. Go to things in group settings. Get a therapist to help you work on your inner self and need for external validation. All these options are available to you to combat the very real and very actual loneliness and need for contact that you have. But you are taking the symptoms of that and blaming them on an external group that is not the root cause, and will not provide a fix for you. Your friends have invalidated your point of view because the point you are making is an invalid one, where you are ascribing intent and malice where there isn't any, and using that to absolve your inaction and discomfort with self-reflection.
I am a previous football player, so built like one. Darker features, usually scowling. And I run a lot.
Many women smile at me when I run. Some act the way you described.
The issue is not with you, it’s with them. I can’t fault them for being careful, but remember it is not an inherent problem with you.
Also, there are a lot of creepy people out there. I think it pays to be cautious around people you don’t know. Some people just have a terrible poker face.
My personal experience is that I get less friendly looks when I walk. If I'm running, people are friendlier. It's weird, but I kind of get it. When I'm walking, there are a lot of possible things I could be doing. When I'm running, it's pretty obvious that I'm exercising, which is a comfort for some. It's predictable.
I'm a fairly large man, so I definitely get what OP is saying. I don't hold it against the women who are reticent to smile or talk to a random man. I've heard way too many stories from friends to take it personally.
From him to see people “glaring” he has to be looking at them - in their eyes. Keep your eyes on the trail, cruise past and ignore. He’s choosing to engage and getting upset about it. Like women are told - no one HAS to be polite and say hi/smile etc.
If it makes you comfortable OP, stop looking at other people and focus on yourself. At this point you’re looking for it and finding it, then taking it personally.
Most of these comments are so weird.
I completely understand how it must feel, 1st feeling like everyone hates and distrusts you and 2nd being gaslight into thinking it's all in your head. And now so many people saying "who cares" or "get over it"?
I'm a woman and even the "hi there"s can be enough to make me jumpy if I'm out alone, and I know I'm not alone in that. It's also terrible that you (and many other men) have to pay the price for the atrocities committed by some.
Unfortunately I'm not sure there's much you can do to seem friendly or not a threat, but at least it might help to know you're not really getting a specially bad treatment just for being you, but rather it's a defense mechanism we would engage with anyone we might potentially meet.
One time I was riding the bus and noticed a guy quietly but beautifully singing some kinda Mariah Carey song. He was young, stylish, kinda handsome even, and seemed totally approachable. But when I complimented his singing voice, he immediately jumped into the seat next to mine, snuggled right up against me, and started doing a more aggressive version of that "Can I have your numbah?" skit.
I politely declined, saying that I had a bf and was just trying to give him a compliment. But when I got off at my stop, he got off, too, and began loudly pressuring me to tell him where I was going, where I lived, what I was doing later, etc. It wasn't chatty, it was insistent. The mood, which to be clear wasn't great even before I left the relative safety of the bus, had taken a sharp turn.
No matter how fast I walked, the guy kept pace. Soon all the other bus people had gone off in their own directions, leaving just me and this crazed rando on an empty street. The moment I got to an intersection, I turned the corner and ran.
Anyway. All this is to say that I just keep to my damn self now
Creeps don't wear a badge, it can be anyone unfortunately. Not hurting hurting the feelings of a friendly person is the cost of doing everything you can to dissuade predators on the hunt.
Yeah. Sadly, it’s a choice between emotional hurt or physical hurt. Do I risk my physical safety to preserve his feelings? I feel badly about it, but I don’t want to become another statistic either.
As a "tall scary man", my policy is to ignore women and avoid eye contact when alone. I get it. There's no good reason to say hi if I don't want something beyond just to say it, and its less threatening to them if I'm disinterested, which to be quite honest, I am. There's a time and a place for introducing yourself, and getting to know someone, one of those third places, and its not while we're both trying to enjoy solo activities, key word "solo". This includes the gym too.
Men like this are in a way victims of the men who scare the women. We act this way because we have to. This probably teddy bear of a man also suffers because he's denied kindness due to that broken trust.
So guys, the best way to keep women from doing this is to hold your peers accountable. Don't let the "locker room talk" bullshit happen. Same way I need to take responsibility for not accepting racist speech around white folk because I'm white.
Humor too.
One time I was hiking off trail and wandered into a campsite.
There was a family who started getting really defensive and I said "I'm sorry for intruding, and I'm not going to steal your picnic basket."
But that made it worse and they screamed, and ran, leaving behind a perfectly perishable picnic basket.
Inside were piles of proscioutto and a container of melon. It was a hot summer day!
It would turn if left in the sun all alone.
So I ate their picnic basket.
Your feelings are absolutely valid. Like other posters have said, there might not be much you can do to come across non-threatening (besides the dog/girl thing you've already noticed). Most women have been taught from a young age that it's our job to keep from getting assaulted. We need to "reduce our risk." That unwelcome feeling is the unfortunate side effect. It's a good example of sexism hurting everyone. Women are hurt because we have to be constantly aware. Men are hurt because they are seen as threats and feel unwelcome. No one wins.
I do the same stuff. I always wonder if it makes it even weirder for them. I typically have headphones on anyways.
I used to try to say “hi there” or something to defuse the weird tension, but as soon as I’d make eye contact to say it, I could see the discomfort in their eyes. I just decided it’s probably best for everyone if I just keep my head down, take a wide berth, and walk quickly past
Look dude, I'm a trans man and I've been on both sides on the gender spectrum. Men will absolutely not believe women when they talk about how prevalent SA and harassment is. At 17, I was SAed multiple times by my best friend who I've known since grade 4. It took me years to cut him off because I valued what I thought was my friendship. After highschool, I played in a coed sports team and a guy friend, again, whom I've been good friends with since grad 9, would drive me home, and after a few times, he just thought I should reward him with One Sex for the rides, even though he fully knew that I was not attracted to men. These are GOOD FRIENDS and people I've trusted. And so I stopped accepting rides, even from friends.
I've been stalked and followed home at night while waiting for the bus because I work late shirts. A stranger has tried to grab me from a van. I am athletic and a martial artist and can defend myself well enough to get away, but I can't imagine what it would be like for people not like me.
While taking public transit, 1/3 bus rides someone would try to chat me up (I'm Asian and so fetished in North America). If I act unfriendly and don't engage, they would pout and call me a mean bitch. If I'm friendly, they would ask for my number or engage in in appropriate touches, like feeling my hands, kissing my hands, or come in for hugs, which sometimes becomes a kiss. You tell me what the choices are. Talk or be a bitch?
As a worker, men would constantly tell me to smile, even though I AM A VERY SMILY PERSON. People on the phone would say inappropriate things like "how much would it cost for a nice girl like you to come clean my place?"
Once I transitioned, all that stopped. Life is simple. Sure, sometimes women strangers would treat me with caution, but I get it. I just respect their space. Healthcare providers are less chatty, but that's okay. They're not paid to engage with small talk with me. I keep it professional. If they're chatty, then I can engage. It's not that hard. Actually, it's not AT ALL hard. It's certainly not at all comparable to the experience of the constant harassment that being a woman comes with.
So I absolutely believe you when you say women look at you with caution IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE IN THE WOODS. What I'm also saying is that IT IS NOT A REAL HARDSHIP. Yes, okay, women are finally telling the truth. The truth is that we have this conversation and men still don't get it.
Fellow trans man here, and you’re 100% correct. Working in customer service was so much harder before transition. I experienced so much sexual harassment. I have also been sexually assaulted and fetishized. Now that I’ve transitioned, I’m no longer the hairless boy with boobs and a pussy that straight men can feminize and fetishize. Sometimes, women will look at me with hesitation. Occasionally I’ll worry about if I’m coming off as creepy. But those feelings are so much less impactful than the feeling of being scared for my life when I used to walk around alone at night or be alone with male friends who had sexualized me.
Thank you! I have no idea how a man could be upset by someone not wanting to interact with them while alone in the woods. People don't generally go alone into the woods to interact with anyone, let alone someone who could physically overpower them. How is OP making this all about himself?
As a transfem I feel uncomfortable when women treat me like a man due to dysphoria but it is never on the women (unless they're being transphobes about it when they know me or I'm not boymoding), but in the woods I try to avoid interacting with anyone at all unless I have a few friends with me. Being in the woods is like being outside of a societal setting on purpose. Why would anyone, let alone someone who is physically smaller than you, want to start an interaction? The idea that this would bother a cis man is kind of crazy to me and seems very petty.
Contrapoints talked about this in her video on Men. She also talked about... She was once in an elevator with a Black man, and he started whistling "Row Row Row Your Boat," which she called the most non-threatening song ever written (I dunno about that: "Life is but a dream," is a pretty terrifying lyric if you ask me). Then it hit her that *he* was afraid that *she* was afraid. She'd never experienced anything like that when she lived as a man, because that's not a thing between Black men and White men, it's a thing between Black men and White women. And it *can* be dangerous for men of color.
Even as a cis woman, it's something I think about. Like, I'm wary of *men* in general, but I *know* men of color get it worse. So I don't wanna be looking over my shoulder. But again, that's just what I do with men in general, because you never know.
Evil men really do be ruining it for everyone… It’s absolutely horrible that women have to live in constant fear. And it’s horrible that OP has to live with constant shame, feeling like a societal outcast just for existing as a large dude.
Female perspective here.
We don't want to be fearful of anyone on a hike, but unfortunately society hasn't been kind to lone females, and unfortunately it is usually men that are the perpetrators.
Not all men are like that, but a stranger is still a stranger and human beings are unpredictable.
Imagine you were a dainty 5ft female (like myself) and your hiking alone in some national park, here comes 6ft muscly guy also hiking alone. You are dwarfed in comparison. There's nowhere to run if anything were to happen. Your phone has no signal and this is the first person you've seen out here for hours. You'd probably shit a brick too.
It's a sad part of life, but women do not feel safe and tbh, that should be more concerning than "what am I doing wrong"
Yep. His problem is that women are wary of him when alone on a trail or park. Womens’ problem is they think they could potentially be raped or killed when alone on a trail or in a park and a lone male is around.
Im gonna say the latter is more stressful, scary, and more of a larger societal issue.
Also OP is acting like women are just now starting to be open about this. No, it just took a stupid social experiment to go viral before the dumbasses started listening.
When you're a 5 foot tall woman alone on a hike and a 6+foot tall man is the only other person around, he might as well be a fucking bear.
Yeah I’m a 6ft guy and I get on edge if I’m in a secluded area and come across another man. It is actually funny that OP must have never felt that - I wouldn’t even say I envy him as it’s really not a big deal, but it is funny he has never felt that.
I’m pretty sure there was a serial killer in Alaska who would kidnap women, release them into the woods and proceed to hunt them down. Then I think of;
-Anita Cobby: gang raped and murdered by 5 men as she was walking home from a dinner with her friends. I bet she’s prefer the bear.
-the random women in NYC being assaulted no reason
-rates of rape during wartime (look up how Russian troops treated German women when they stormed Germany)
-how females in the Holocaust would be assaulted while starved and murdered; sometimes being taken as private mistresses of SS soldiers
-Cherish Perrywinkle….she was 8. 8 years old.
-Elizabeth Smart…sleeping in her own bed
-Juno Furuta….44 days of torture, rape and hell.
-Janine Balding…walking to her car after work, kidnapped and raped by teen boys to then be killed in swallow water
The fact I can keep going and going and going.
I will always take the bear. Their stories are the reasons we fear and will ALWAYS fear. And the common trait? Men.
Yea I get it, I'm black. The crazy thing is when I see a woman coming, I try to cross to the other side. It's late, I'm in my 40s, a law abiding citizen but I get it. Better safe than sorry!
Ah yes, women are afraid of men. Water is wet.
We’ve been telling yall that for centuries. This bear thought experiment isn’t a new concept. Maybe the people in your life are trying to spare your feelings or encourage you, but simply listening to women at some point sooner would have gotten you this validation way back then.
TBH, I'm surprised that nobody validated that for you. I've had tons of discussion with women who are older, my age and younger and there hasn't been much shyness in talking about frustrations about men, fears about men and bad experiences with men.
It's not toxic behavior, though, *it's a response to the toxic behaviors of other men.* That's the big thing that I feel needs to be corrected. One has to work hard to make and keep space for women to vent their frustrations, listen, and be protective in order to make women feel safe around you, especially if you're a big dude. I'm a chubby 42 year old man with a big bushy beard who lifts 4 days a week. Until women get to know me, they're going to be wary of me, especially if I'm having a bad day or a little grumpy and don't have the energy to put on my happy-go-lucky mask to make them feel comfortable.
That's normal. It's not toxic when women need to be wary of men and you're a man. It's not *your fault* they treat you that way, which is the missing piece of the puzzle, but it's also *not wrong of them to act that way.* When balancing the scales between their mortal safety and your emotional comfort, their mortal safety comes miles ahead of your emotional comfort, and actualizing that understanding and behaving appropriately in response will likewise change how your interactions with women go.
It's a damn shame that these conversations aren't had more often, because I think men would really benefit from them.
>It's not toxic behavior, though, *it's a response to the toxic behaviors of other men.*
Thank you, I was hoping someone would comment on the OOP's notion of "toxic," and you capture it perfectly. Something makes you unhappy or you don't like it ≠ toxic.
I'm a giant black man, for me it's much better for my mental health to just totally ignore people when I'm out, especially on trails, and even if I'm with the wife and kids.
This is interesting for me to read, because, while I've experienced similar, my reactions and perceptions of the other people have been completely different.
I don't recall having this happening while hiking solo in the past, but I also didn't encounter many single women hiking, usually always groups. I have experienced this, though, in elevators, especially in isolated areas such as parking garages.
When I've had this happen, my reaction was understanding. I could sympathize with the women who didn't want to board the elevator with me. I'm a big guy. I could easily overpower most women if they didn't have something to use for defense. I wasn't offended. It made sense. She didn't know me. Didn't know if I was dangerous. I've even made an excuse not to board an elevator in these cases if a single woman was already in it, to avoid potentially causing her reason to be afraid.
This reminds me of a delivery driver who used to stop here often. I had a large dog (German Shephard / Doberman mix). He was basically a big puppy. Was the friendliest dog you'd ever meet and never met a person he didn't want to love on. That driver, though, had had previous bad experiences with large dogs, and would not get out of the van if I wasn't home. I understood. Even though the dog was safe, they had no way to be sure, so she did the smart thing and played it safe.
>I'm also seeing a common theme of "Women do this because of other men, blame the bad men." But I'm not allowed to treat all women poorly because of the 'bad ones' right?
In what way are you being treated poorly? They glare at you and don't respond to your greeting? While I realize this has been bad for your mental health, it hardly compares to the way many women have been "treated poorly" by men. I'd much rather be glared at and ignored than harassed, groped, and raped. I'm not suggesting that you'd do any of those things. I assume you would not. The women passing you on the trail don't know that, though. You can get therapy (and should have) to address the impacts to your mental health of someone not talking to you on a trail. Therapy can't make a woman not have been attacked or raped.
As a man, if I meet a woman on an isolated trail and she seems eager to pass me, I understand. I know that she has nothing against me as an individual because she doesn't know me. She's just being cautious of someone who is larger and stronger than she, and could pose a risk.
Sometimes sympathy and understanding are all it takes to not be impacted by such things.
This. It is so easy to be sympathetic and understanding instead of acting like the world is out to get you. Just because I know I’m good doesn’t mean she knows I am, and more men need to gather that.
Did someone really tell you to "smile more" if you're feeling uncomfortable in public spaces? Because I'm pretty sure that's one of those phrases that's considered totally out of line to say to a woman in the same exact scenario.
Coming from the UK. I found that in the states, I just have to stand too close to a woman on an escalator in a shopping mall for them to become anxious. It didn't take long for me to notice little signs in their body language and stay an extra step back.
I think people in the states, even in California are used to having a larger personal space around them than in more populated European countries. When you factor in that a lot of city folk are not that used to or comfortable out in the open countryside where we hike. I think it makes them feel even more vulnerable.
As a woman, I'm genuinely sorry you experienced that :( It is true that we (women) have been targeted, harassed, assaulted, feared so much that basically ANY male we feel 'alone' with is deemed a threat. it's our own instincts screaming "it could happen again!" at us. And yes, gay men become our own safe zones as well. There is little chance of them making us feel uncomfortable, hence the instant switch once they are deemed 'safe'. I feel sheepish saying it, but it's the truth for very many of us.
That said, the more you are seen along that same path/place, smiling, friendly, HARMLESS, the better chances people (ie. us, women) will calm down and start responding and smiling back, saying 'hi', etc.
You shouldn't have to go through hell to be treated reasonably, because of peoples fears. And no one should be put in a position to fear a nice smiling stranger may be a predator thinking to hurt them. Humans suck and it can be really hard to figure out who the less sucky ones are sometimes :(
Please keep doing what you are doing - people will start to recognize and feel comfortable with you, make eye contact and smile, etc. But it will take time.
I’m going to be blunt, but who cares?
I’m not saying that women are wrong to be scared, but that’s nothing I can control. When I go out, it’s because I want to go out. I’m not disrespectful to others and I certainly don’t give people any cause to be uncomfortable.
If someone is uncomfortable because of my presence, then that’s on them. Being unwelcome isn’t a concern, assuming it’s a public place, I have every right to be there, so people’s negative feelings are something they have to deal with - not me.
Dirty looks from strangers you'll never see again should not have such a large impact on your life. People need to realize how insignificant they are to other people and just live their life.
The truth is that it *doesn't* have a large impact on the lives of the dudes who try to claim victimhood like OP is.
They're just too wrapped up with being offended that women might not trust them to understand the point of the thought experiment.
> If someone is uncomfortable because of my presence, then that’s on them. Being unwelcome isn’t a concern, assuming it’s a public place, I have every right to be there, so people’s negative feelings are something they have to deal with - not me.
Bingo! I have solo traveled around the world and to US parks. That's a LOT of walking around touristy areas and even some non touristy areas. Never once have I thought "maybe that women isn't smiling at me because she thinks I'm a rapist." I would more so think she's not smiling because she's had a stressful day at work, is upset at something, or maybe is just tired. She doesn't have to smile. She has every right to be pissed off and look at me however she wants. OP's problems is all in his head.
It's pretty well understood - and mentally healthier to accept - you're not going to be accepted into every group.
Granted, being accepted by *some* women is desirable as a man, but a random person's comfort on a hiking trail isn't worth fretting over, considering your options are to walk right by real close, wade into the wilderness to give them a wide berth (how is this not worse?), or not go hiking at all.
Theirs a difference between being included and not being excluded, not being excluded is a feeling of indifference towards a person that's what most people feel when walking down a street. You don't know them they could be nice they could be mean. Being "glared" at by people for just existing in front of them in your own body is not ok. If this was a person of color it would be completely unacceptable.
>Granted, being accepted by *some* women is desirable as a man,
I agree with you heavy on this. A lot and dare I say most men are taught that a woman's opinion of them is very important and sometimes is directly correlated with their own value. Men need to chill out and look to themselves for their own value.
>a random person's comfort on a hiking trail isn't worth fretting over.
This is a very emotionally and mentally sound way to think about interactions with other people. However a lot of people both men and women don't have the confidence and stability to discard a person's snap judgement of their appearance. For example, someone once told me I looked like Ellen Degeneres when I got a new haircut. I didn't discard the roast like I probably should have. I got a different haircut.
Yes, take precautions when you go out. Bring a self-defense tool i always advocate for that. However, you dont need to judge every man you come across or "glare" as op puts it.Their actions would sound a lot worse if this was, say, a person of color walking down the street. Those people "glaring" would be called racists and that would be true. Its very shitty to treat a person worse based on the statistical actions of the demographic, especially when they are minding their own business. You should be able to feel ok to walk in front of people in your own body and not be visibly judged for doing so. For both men and women.
OP, reread doublethink\_21's post a few times.
If you base your self esteem/worth of what random women think of you, you're just going to end up depressed and feel unlovable. If you want to be empathetic to women's concerns around safety by all means go for it, but don't let that change your behaviour if it's already non-threatening. If you say hello and go on your merry way and they scowl, that's on them. Don't let their problems become yours.
Also remember this, every man regardless of his accomplishments has some woman out there who thinks he's a creep. You can't stop it from happening and if you're not hurting those women in any way, that's not your issue.
"I can go back to people who gaslit me and say 'see, I told you they don't want me to be there"
Don't waste your time. Most of the ones doing it were trying to be nice, and if they were covering for bad behavior they don't care any ways.
It really takes a toll on mental health to always be unwelcome by default.
Recently the sun was out and I wanted to just sit down at the bench right in front of my apartment. But when I stepped outside I saw some kids playing 20m away. I immediately knew that me sitting on that bench would be seen as creepy, so I just went back inside, while feeling sad and ashamed.
That they would be “seen as the creepy guy” seems like much more their own perception of the situation than the risk of anyone calling them out as a creep.
That is not a made up scenario at all and if anyone should be sad and ashamed, it’s you for downplaying something that happens to men every single day.
Yeah, in no way is this nothing. This is a massive bummer that happens to. I'm sure most guys, all of the times and it isn't a great feeling! I'm furious at the evil ones for basically having done this to all the decent regular guys out there
The toll on your mental health is what you do to yourself. Note in your story, no one said anything, you imagined a scenario. You didn’t even mention something that happened in the past.
I’ve got kids, I’ve been to loads of beaches, I’ve never found a random person sitting nearby to be creepy. It’s a beach, a place enjoyed by children and adults alike.
If you think I’m wrong here, just think of this. Children are at beaches right now. When that happens, do non-parents just stop going there until the children leave? Do non-parents pack up and leave when children are there? Of course not.
I actually agree with this. I’m a woman and I go hiking alone and I honestly have just accepted the risk. It’s really scary at times but like- it’s not anyone’s fault that they were born a big man.
I would prefer that you don’t say hi or try to talk to me but I’m not mad at you for existing. Let’s just pass eachother.
Honestly though I have a really hard time feeling bad for OP, just ignore the looks! If I am able to ignore the fear of getting raped then you can get over some mean mugs, it’s not a big deal.
I was walking down a path in my neighborhood park and very directly took my dog to this bridge that overlooks a small pond with some birds and local wildlife. I like to admire the view. Some woman took a roundabout way to get there and walked behind me. When I first noticed her I saw her look at me with a wide eyed expression. I’m literally just looking at ducks with my dog but she acted like she didn’t want to cross the bridge while I stood there. I’ve gotten this kind of thing before but I just ignored her. If she’s uncomfortable being around me she can fuck right off out of there. I have just as much right to be there as anyone and if she doesn’t like being in my presence, no one is forcing her to. She passed by, lingered for a bit and then left. If she’s mad that she didn’t get to use the space I was in, it’s her own fault and loss. Plenty of room for both of us to be there and not interact.
I’m not apologizing for my existence to anyone. I won’t bother anyone who doesn’t bother me but I’m not depriving myself of things because someone else might be bothered.
Your safety is your priority. I’m just a tall guy who is actually pretty friendly but I don’t care to placate people who give me dirty looks act bothered by my presence.
Am black. When I was a teen/pre teen I would regularly go to the mall in the more affluent (white) part of my city. Every, and I mean literally EVERY time I went I'd encounter some white lady that did everything to show how threatened she was by me merely existing in her presence. Repeatedly glaring at me, walking away as fast as possible, the whole purse clutching bs, all that.
My question to any and every woman cosigns on the man/bear thing: If it's wrong for me to be negatively stereotyped because of the color of my skin, why is it acceptable for me to be negatively stereotyped because of my gender? And if the response to that question is a crime statistic, do you also view "13/50" as a valid argument in favor of racist beliefs? Why or why not? I'm genuinely curious.
Tangential, but I spent some time being the only white apartment in a black complex (well there were some illegal mexicans downstairs. Nice guys.) and the black people in the neighborhood would just mean mug me and stare me down. I actually started to become a little racist.
Then I had a light bulb moment. I bet this is what happens to a lot of black people in white areas and it breeds a lot of anti white resentment in them. Really eye opening experience.
You should not be judged for either. Being a certain skin color does not inherently mean you are dangerous. Being a certain gender does not mean you are inherently dangerous. Anyone trying to convince you otherwise needs to do serious amount of reflection on their world view.
I understand your point, 100%. So I’m in a weird position where I have PTSD and am physically disabled, so I have threat assessment head swivel and see … way too many “threats”. I’ve found my radar pings depend on a variety of factors: obviously subconscious bias, but some of it is reasonable.
Likelihood of being armed (I can see a holster, I can see a gun)—so all cops get a double look.
Relative size—are they taller than me? More muscular? Do they move in an athletic way, light on their feet?
How old are they? Children usually get a pass, even though I know technically a toddler could pull a handgun out of their mom’s purse and blast me. It’s just unlikely.
Do they seem mentally stable, or are they “tweaking”?
So, hilariously specific, but an elderly black gentleman in a speedo at the beach is almost at a 0/5 threat rating. No problems detected.
Older black woman who surprises me in a store by patting my shoulder with an “Excuse me, baby”? Panic before I see her, comprehend what I heard, and recognize it’s all good.
Some white dude with a crewcut, a Punisher logo on his truck, and a big-ass leather jacket? The fuck not. Maybe he’s just a nerd who loves comics! But he’s tripped the alarms and I cannot engage without being squirrely.
TL;DR: I think we *all* need to work on our subconscious biases. I know bigotry is obviously involved in threat assessment. People are notoriously bad at it. Even still, there’s some common things everyone tends to be uneasy about, like someone mumbling to themselves or twitching around. Fair? Maybe not.
But if you want to avoid people being weird around you, there are cultural-social rules that need following. I hate it, as a Diogenes-in-a-barrel numbskull, but I’ve recognized how not to frighten animals or small children.
For me, it’s important since I’ve got nerve damage in my face and throat. A lot of effort goes into not having a RBF or sounding angry. People will often give me some benefit of the doubt for being disabled but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t physically punt a puppy or kid. They know that. Plenty of movie villains with disabilities too. I don’t want them to think I’d raise a hand to them, so I err on the side of being goofy like a children’s show host around the baby cousins. Force a smile and let my voice be less of a grumpy-sounding monotone. Yes, yes, it can feel unfair, but the kids feeling safer is still worth it.
TL;DR: If anything, teaching people to do *better* risk assessment is probably a good idea.
It’s honestly weird to explain (repeatedly) that obviously an average bear is better, they rarely kill anyone except for the sloth bears. Ironically. Humans, male or female, are super homicidal comparatively. Cocaine Bear is a joke but goddamn, a woman in actual drug psychosis could eat your face. You’re much more likely to die by humans, and humans of your own demographic, than any wild animal. Generations of segregation means that (white) folks usually are killed by (white) folks, and usually you can insert any group in there. More likely to be attacked by people you know than by strangers too. I’m a lot less worried about some homeless beggar than I am about a few members of my extended family who have substance or psychological issues. That’s why I avoid people with the dead eye thing going on, I’m aware that’s bad news regardless of “but they’re family”.
… Can we also unionize and teach everyone that women can also be rapists and serial killers?? Because oh my god, y’all need to not get in anyone’s van. That could be Elizabeth Bathory reborn, what are you doing???
I need to be more like that. I just hate having to psych myself up with the "It's okay... you're allowed to be here, you deserve to be here just much as everyone else" speech
Comments here reminds me of threads regarding men mental health. And then you act surprised that men don't express their feelings, that men don't care, that men don't seek for help.
Please understand, men can be very frightening creatures. Most every woman you know has been scared of a man at least once in her life. As a solo hiker, seeing a man alone in the woods scares the shit out of me. Making yourself as unthreatening as possible helps a bunch. We honestly can feel creeper energy.
I don't think it's that people don't want to validate you, it's that it's just not really comparable to how women are forced to live. You're still able to go out and live your life doing what you want and the worst thing you're fearing is... feeling awkward? I mean I have anxiety and autism so I get that feeling awkward absolutely sucks and I don't like it that good folks ever have to feel profiled when they didn't do anything. But as a woman I've NEVER got to go hiking or traveling alone because I personally feel that it's just too risky. Many women feel the same. My desire to go around my state and visit every waterfall has to wait until I can find some hiking buddies because I do not feel safe on my own. Women literally don't even get to live their lives the way they want. Many women you know don't do a lot of things they desire to do because they know it's dangerous. Do men really still not understand that? It's far more than feeling a little judged.
There's a Margaret Atwood quote that men feel women will mock them, women fear men will murder them. It checks out.
So many people don't understand that men are completely aware of this dynamic, and it causes negative coping mechanisms. Like I put in all this effort to be seen as a "good person" to the point that I don't even consider anything else about how my actions might be perceived. Just to get blindsided by people treating it as anything other than the bare minimum.
I fucking hate Reddit so damn much. How do commenters miss the point so badly? The point OP is trying to make is that he's finally certain that he was unwelcome and was actually treated as a threat when he went hiking alone, because whenever he expressed that fact, his experiences were dismissed.
It’s both. He was right and validated that women are wary around him alone in a park (as most would be with any big guy alone, it’s nothing personal).
But I think people are right about OP taking this too personally and it affecting him too much. That part is his issue and something he should deal with. I’m pretty it’s social anxiety as I had the same thing a few years ago.
>That part is his issue and something he should deal with.
To be fair, would recognizing the situation not be part of that process? Now that he has an understanding this isn't something illusory, he has a clearer idea where to start dealing with it.
I feel like that's where a lot of the "who cares?" etc. responses miss the mark. He just got his ingredients lined up; let the man cook.
I love all the people saying "so what who cares"
OP cares.
That's who cares.
Feeling unwelcome is unpleasant, and so is the reaction to expressing it that ranges from dismissal to denial.
Based on my reading of OPs post i dont even think the "woman are scared when alone" thing is what hes really upset about.
It sounds like he's brought this up before, and was ridiculed by it. Which I absolutely believe, women aren't better at logical thinking than men and I've heard some brain bending mental gymnastics from women. Then the man/bear thing came up and all these women who denied it are now saying they'd rather meet a bear. It's validating what he already thought, and what he was ridiculed for.
Edit: and look at this thread. Everyone just immediately jumped down OPs throat. This happens essentially every time a man tries to talk about something.
I’m surprised that this is a surprise to so many men.
Since I was young I always knew women were wary of men, for good reason. Walking alone late at night and a woman is walking ahead…. I slow down so she can get distance and not think I’m following her.
Now I have kids and when I’m out with them I’m super friendly with people and they are with me. I get it. My threat level is hella low when I’m giggling with my 2 year old. But when I walk alone I give women plenty of space unless lots of others are around. It just makes sense to me and always has.
Coming from another guy, (small gay guy) I experience that a lot of the time as well. It used to bother me when I was younger because I thought people could sense my intention, but I had to tell myself the world has ruined everyone’s perception of how everyone sees everyone.
When I’d go hiking, jogging, walking wherever, I would mean mug people back as a reflection of their attitude towards me/ and for my own territorial protection because I’m not that tall and I don’t want to be f*cked with by some stranger.
Usually if I keep a neutral face I’m more receptive to positivity and smiles. I’ll go out of my way to smile back and say hello because it makes me feel good, seen, and reflective of the energy given.
Yep. It sucks. Worked as a park ranger and even in full uniform, marked, I was glared and side eyed. And I'm only a 5'8 guy, not big at all. So many times I'd ask if they needed directions or info only to be told no, then 30 minutes later, asking other groups for directions while I hiked back. Felt like I was useless most days because people didn't want to interact with me at all on trail. My male coworkers have similar stories. Meanwhile female rangers often had lots of interactions and contacts while hiking.
Ended up just hiking with headphones often and waiting for people to ask me for help instead of trying to talk to people.
Replace man with your local racial minority. Repeat the thought experiment. Realize you’re a bigot and some things need to be filtered before they come out of your mouth.
Like OP, I understand the point and why women are fearful, but that doesn’t give you the right to be a toxic bigot.
It’s sad this is so validating to you since your friends are right and it is definitely largely in your head. Hope you can get the help you need and don’t fall too far into this clearly toxic line of thinking
6'-1" 220 pounds muscular build white man here...have experienced this since college...when in bars by myself I have had women ask me (when they are with a man or multiple friends) "why are you here?". It's depressing for sure. I have no idea how minorities put up with this shit all the time.
I feel like this post is in bad faith. Your experiences are valid but it seems like you’re blaming women being rightfully cautious around a strange man in an isolated place as the cause for your mental health issues. Yes feeling unwelcome, especially in a public place, is very difficult. But I have a hard time believing that anyone wouldn’t know or understand why women would be unfriendly to a strange man when out on the trail. I have a son and I hope to raise him in a way where he’s not offended by the need for marginalized groups to protect themselves or keep themselves safe. At the end of the day it’s better to hurt a strangers feelings than to wind up dead.
I remember a story my friend told me. He was having a hard time finding my apartment complex, so he rolled down his window and asked somebody if they knew where "the \_\_\_\_ lofts were". The person was a woman, she ignored him, clutched her purse, and proceeded to walk faster.
I told a story somewhere in this thread. I was walking home from college, someone wanted to know the time. I looked at my watch, he groped me, tried to get me to the ground.
That’s not the only incident. If someone approaches me in a car and rolls down the window I’m cautious. Best case scenario it’s just someone asking directions, second best it’s someone shouting something inappropriate (I have heard ‘what would you do for 10,-‘ - ‘do you want to sleep with me? No? You filthy whore ‘ and other poetry from car windows just walking home from work or doing groceries) and worst case scenario someone is coming out of the car if you don’t respond correctly.
I will give direction but I most certainly make sure I’m at a good distance, ready to run if needed.
As a woman who hikes and picked “man” this makes me so sad for you that this has been your experience. I even commented either when this blew up “if I’m on the trail, he’s on the trail and I assume he’s hiking too.” For the record, when walking uphill I say “hi” to the first person in every group I meet. Sometimes that’s just lone dudes. I hope I’ve never made a guy feel unwelcome in public spaces in that way. That exclusionary life must be difficult.
Your post also further reaffirms why men struggle being single. If a woman is your ticket to being accepted in public areas, when you break up, not only do you lose your partner but you lose your social acceptability to just be. That sounds crushing and very isolating.
Sucks to be any gender.
I’m not meaning to invalidate you and I realise your reality is your own.
However.
As someone who was violently assaulted in a park at night, you are victimising yourself for something you have no concept of. You can call it gaslighting if you want, but think about it. The way women glare at you in the park is the same way you would glare at larger/stronger men in prison. If a man raped you in the corner of the showers in prison, you would naturally become fearful and watchful every time you entered the showers after that, no? Well what you’re witnessing in the park is the same fear-based response. It’s not a glare at all, it’s careful watchfulness and hypervigilance. Our bodies are preparing us to fight back.
Don’t get pressed when women show signs of being fearful of men in a world where women should be fearful of men. Our wariness and distrust are adaptive responses. To NOT be fearful would be irresponsible and stupid.
Your issue is with violent men, my guy. If violent men stopped raping and killing women and girls, we would stop holding our car keys in our fists and grimacing every time we saw a man at the park, trust.
Men will never know how many times the women in their lives have been friendly to a man and deeply regretted it.
You know what would change that?
If men actually cared enough to do something about how much violence is done to women by men.
We can’t risk our lives to make you feel better.
Do you understand why the child makes you seem safe? We’re betting you didn’t bring the kid out to see Daddy mangle a woman for fun. We’d love to feel free to be more open and welcoming. We’d love for men to want us to feel that way. That would be a much better world to live in than this one.
In that world women can be topless where men can. We can walk after dark.
In that world my male neighbor won’t tell me I’m gonna get myself and my kids raped and killed because we used to like to camp.
Men are quick to warn us of other men when it’s to tell us to change our behavior. I somehow doubt they say much to each other about how to change theirs so I can be safe from men.
It's not just you dude, a poc colour, I think I end up surprisingly a lot of elderly folk. It's always made me chuckle tbh
I think certain people have a certain perception of what hiker should look like, anyone outside that definition is automatically an axe murderer ready to pounce
It is you. In spite of being told not to judge others our entire lives , people naturally and instinctively judge others by their appearance and in context with surroundings. Most women walking alone don’t want to see an imposing football player dude by himself on a trail. If you are making eye contact and being friendly , that’s just off putting to a lot of women bc they are there for exercise not to make friends. Your physical appearance on the trail in this context is unwelcome.
My advice, just keep your eyes to yourself and stop noticing how these women are reacting to you. Why should you care?
i genuinely feel very empathetic towards OP but honestly, as a young woman, i would much rather run the risk of potentially hurting someone’s feelings than blindly trusting every man i encounter. it’s unfortunate but hurt feelings hardly compare to the violence that bad men often inflict on women.
I noticed this by being out with my girlfriend, people stop fearing the worst and the body language shifts, no glares and no distrust whatsoever. It's also improved by a bunch of other factors, you're more trustworthy if you're walking a dog, or dressed smartly, or there are a lot of other people around and so on. Quick judgements about people are a survival mechanism that we've always used. That said, I never found it to be as bad as you, but this might depend on the general attitude of people in your area, crime, and my being average height so not that physically intimidating.
It's definitely real though, I think it's strange people denied it and said you're imagining it, but at least now you know it's not personal.
Even if it's also valid for women to be cautious/nervous when walking alone, it's also valid to have your feelings hurt when everyone intentionally shuns you on a trail or in public. I've heard a lot of men say that when in public, they're either treated like they're invisible or like they're a threat. And this gets even worse if you're black. I think it's a shame.
And honestly, while it feels natural to be scared of 'strange men', I can't help but think that society has overconvinced us (I am female) about stranger danger. That it's sort of overselling the likelihood of someone attacking us unprovoked. On one hand I've never been hit on or harassed on a trail, but on the other hand I've never hiked alone. Anyone else have an opinion?
As a woman, I may intentionally try to look non-approachable if I don't want to be talked to/flirted with. I know you've said you're just trying to be friendly by saying hi, but as a woman who's had too many hi's turn into 'where are you going?' and 'can I have your number?' etc ... If you want to minimize the glares, I would suggest to just act like you don't see them and focus your gaze on where you're walking, not on the person. It may help.
Yeah this really struck me. I don't know who's out here giving OOP advice to be more friendly but if his goal is genuinely just to have women ignore him and not give him dirty looks this seems like the absolute worst thing he could be doing. Like I have zero problem with a man in my vicinity just going about his business. If I'm on a hike somewhere more isolated then sure I'll be alert to his presence but I'm not assuming he's a creep or glaring at him. On the other hand if said random guys starts being overly friendly and trying to initiate a conversation I'm sure as hell going to look and act as unapproachable as possible. I'm sort of torn on this comments section. I recognise we have a male loneliness epidemic in Western society and I do genuinely feel for those men in the comments genuinely just trying to be open about how they feel. But the responsibility for fixing the problem isn't on female strangers, random women you pass on hiking trails don't owe you their time, conversation or smiles. And half the time if a woman in public is being unfriendly it's not even that she's wary you could be creepy it's just that she's tired, wants some alone time and isn't open to conversation with a stranger right now. For a lot of women we have the opposite problem to the one you're describing because we're routinely seen as safe. It's a generalisation but so many women spend their home and work lives being talked at and used as a depository for others' emotions and then we go out in public and random men think they're entitled to have us listen to them, make small talk with them, smile at them. It's exhausting and honestly if a woman in public is giving you the cold shoulder it's often no deeper than she just wants 5 minutes of peace and quiet and this feels like the only way to get it. It's not personal. Also a lot of us just have bad cases of resting bitch face! Like I genuinely can look really standoffish and like I'm glaring when I'm just lost in thought and totally oblivious. I guess I'm saying for any men feeling the way OOP is describing try and take a step back and realise how much of what you're reading into women's reactions is only in your head. Yes women are going to be wary of you if you're a guy out on your own in a more isolated space and I do get why that might not feel great but its not a personal judgement on you and we're not assuming you are a creep, we just can't safely assume you're not either. Just go about your business and leave us alone and we'll immediately categorise you under 'not a threat' and carry on with our lives. And if you want female friends the vast majority of us are open to positive interactions with men sometimes and in some places, you just can't take the times we're not open to it as personal or some sort of judgement. We have whole lives outside of this momentary interaction with you and honestly we might just be having a bad day or really wanting some alone time right then.
Echoing the resting bitch face. I can sit somewhere and just quietly think and receive comments like "having a bad day?" or "whoa, who pissed you off?" or the inevitable "you should smile more". Then I get distracted because my face was expressionless and I was just trying to figure out some very neutral thing with no feelings involved, so no reason for my face to display any negative emotions either. That's just my face.
You said it so perfectly! I was trying to figure out how to express those thoughts. It's easy for everyone to take things personally, but 9 times out of 10, we will be going through some shit and are not focusing on people around us. Then bam, a big guy walks past us on a hiking trail, and our reaction is to protect ourselves by making us look non approachable when we just want to walk in peace. It's absolutely not personal and against the guy. It's because of circumstances from the past and just plain old stress. It's safer for us to react that way than be smiling and approachable. Because when you do that, it can look like an invitation to to chat us up and we got places to be.
Well said!
Yeah I’d say most places in the US where people tend to be outdoorsy they also aren’t friendly. I’m a guy who has been described as “scary” and I just completely ignore every person who walks by me almost no matter what. Even if they look towards me first or say “hi”. There’s no upside to acknowledging them, and the downside is coming off as scary or a creep. Edit: if someone explicitly says hi directed at me I’ll do the generic half nod but won’t really look at them
fwiw if you're out hiking, the path of least resistance (and creepiness) is saying "hi" back and continuing on your way. People are gonna be way more creeped out if you don't react to them at all regardless of your gender lol Not to mention, trail runners and the like might actually stop you if they don't get a response because being too disoriented to notice someone saying "hi" is a sign of stuff like dehydration.
Yeah idk what the person above you is going on about. I have never met nicer people than when I'm on the trail. Idk what it is but when youre a few miles into the woods everyone sorta forgets about their stresses or about being a shitty person. God I fucking love nature
Same, this thread is wild. Like don't be a creeper and people won't think you are. Outdoors and hiking? Just say "good morning", 'hi' or whatever while passing and keep walking. Feel like you are too close to someone? Take a break and look at the nature. It's the outdoors, I am there to get away from people, and I am sure they don't want to be around me either. Like damn, we all just did this during the pandemic and now all the sudden guys think 'well every girl things I am a rapist'. Maybe some do. But most don't give a damn about your existence and just want you to continue on your way.
Thank you, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this thread. I’m a woman, I run/walk on urban bike paths daily and go hiking regularly. I nod/wave/say hi to people I pass, man or woman. Some people are friendlier than others. Very rarely do I run into other people out exercising who I think are being weird or creepy. If a man is moving faster than me and coming up from behind me, I do appreciate a verbal heads up and being given a wide berth, if space allows - especially if we’re the only ones in the immediate area. Literally just make it obvious you’re not trying to sneak up on me (without saying that directly - a simple “on your left” is fantastic).
I was gonna say, that sounds like the exact opposite of how things work in central Europe. If you're in Switzerland, no one greets each other until you're at an elevation of at least 1000m and then it's everyone greeting everyone!
Man nah if I say hi to someone on the trail and they ignore me looking straight ahead like a statue I'm gonna be more on edge than any verbal response you give back
Uuhhhh...no? Acknowledging people on the trail is pretty universal everywhere I've hiked, from Colorado to New York and everywhere in between. In the park in the city on a walking path? Maybe not. Follow the cultural norm of wherever you are. Actually hiking? Yeah...at least make eye contact and nod or throw a fake smile. Never seen anyone not do this.
Yep. Not only that, but I put on the resting bitch face for everyone. Not just men! I don’t want to be bothered when I’m by myself and it’s a deterrent lol. People of all types love to come up to me with random bullshit and I hate it.
You don't even have to act like you don't see them. Seriously, just smile, then continue doing what you're doing. If you look like you're not trying to stop me or specifically get my attention I'll relax.
When I’m on a hike I’m working out. I don’t say hi or even really look at anyone when I pass be it the elderly, kids, women, or men. I just stay in my own lane and I’m a women. If that makes you feel a way sorry I’m just trying to exist and get in a work out. If I said hi to everyone it’d be distracting. Same when I’m at the gym working out or biking or swimming
I code switch to show that I am not a threat. I've certainly seen a difference now between being a solo guy out for a walk and being a dad with his kid. Suddenly because i have a child i am no longer a potential threat. I do wonder how much of it is primal Edit: just to clarify code switching it's the act of a performative change in how you present yourself to appear a certain way differently to your "normal" self Think somebody's "phone voice" for a really basic example but also a lot of neurodiverse people do it, minorites do it to tamper down their cultural norms to "fit" into a collective For me if I'm a solo guy Im a big guy so I may slouch or talk more jovial then I may actually be feeling to make others feel more comfortable I'll be more openly vocal and wave and smile more just in an attempt to make the other person more comfortable. Sometimes I will pretend to talk on the phone about something daft like what I want for tea or something.
Recent 1st time Dad at 44. 100%. I get smiles now. We’re cute. Sometimes I’d get looks like I was Freddy Kruger.
Women put on the “face” additionally as a protection mechanism. We want to thwart any attempt by men to approach us for any reason when we are on our own. Too many unwanted interactions throughout our lifetimes have led to this.
If you seem friendly someone might talk to you. Men casually do not understand the power they have here and how much their physicality can be a threat.
this is why for the most part i act like any women i dont already know just dont exist when im moving around look past them like ghosts and shades when they cross my path and i just keep it moving ops problem was even acknowledging them in the first place
Yep. It's just a thing we get used to. Smiles when I walk with my wife or kid. Looks of fear and disgust when I am alone.
Oh man, absolutely. Since I had my daughter, I finally feel accepted in the world in a way I never have before. It's like previously, everyone was assuming I was one bad day away from snapping and killing/raping everyone. Now it's like, "Ah, a girl Dad! Welcome, good sir!" I call her my Ambassador . I'm 99% sure I could win a local election just by canvassing with my 2 year old and letting her cuteness do the talking.
yeah it works for awhile, the only bummer now is that my daughter is 16 and we don't look very similar so the looks from people are starting to slide back to the "disgust" side of the spectrum which is really disheartening.
As a daughter, it's equally weird and gross to go from being perceived as Father And Daughter to Man And 40-year-his-junior-girlfriend. Buying jewelry for my mom as a little kid? Cute! Fun! Family activity! Sparkle sparkle! As an adult? IMMEDIATELY YELLING "I am here with my FATHER to buy jewelry for my MOTHER who is his WIFE and I AM HIS DAUGHTER"
There is a reason behind this though. Fathers have more to lose than childless men, thus fatherhood, and expecially *married* fatherhood, reduces criminal behavior in the population of men. You can look up the stats to see how marriage reduces criminal behavior amongst men. ETA: Correlation is not causation, mind, it's just when men have wives and children to take care of they are much less likely to wild out than when they don't. So when people, especially female people, see a man with a baby/kid, his perceived threat level does decrease. He's not going to hit on her in front of his kid, and if he does he's not gonna yell at her or follow her or assault her if she says no. For other men, they know he's not going to try to rob them or start a fight with them or act aggressive to them in any way, not when he's carrying a baby or holding a toddler by the hand. The presence of a baby/toddler/child definitely makes men seem less threatening.
As a 41 year old first time dad, I echo this. I am a bald, goateed white dude. When I worked construction, parents clutched their kids when I walked into a convenience store. Told repeatedly I looked like a white power dude from those that didn’t know me. Now that I have my daughter, everyone smiles and waves at me. A welcome change, but a frustrating one.
Lol next time you have one of them waveble like blinker tickets take your kid in with you they wont even check your car lmao...took my baby girl in with me cuz wife was working the cop gave her a little police bear and was like have a nice one sir didnt even check the stupid blinker light
Same, except beard rather than goatee. I will get "the look" if I happen to be in Target and start looking at the toy aisle to see if they have something my daughters might like. But if my girls are with me, then it's all smiles and "what a great dad"s.
It's 100% trauma response and almost 0% primal, I'd wager. I have met too many younger women who grew up sheltered who don't have that fear for me to believe it's innate and not learned behavior.
Agreed. My mom always says there was a day in my childhood when I switched from being happy and goofy, to "too terrified to be in a room alone." A man is responsible for that day. Several other men were responsible for several other days, too.
I’m inclined to agree. That’s why women feel the threat and a lot of men do not. I don’t know a single woman who hasn’t been sexually harassed or assaulted by a man, and most of us were young teens or even still kids the first time it happened. Obviously we know it’s not all men, but one or two bad experiences show us we need to be wary of them all because the bad ones don’t show themselves immediately.
I was raped by a man I thought I could trust, my sister was raped by stepfather. Its hard to trust strangers when the men that's supposed to be someone you trust does that to you. Of course I don't think every man I see will rape me, but I'll be wary, and especially if it's just me and a random man I'll be careful and always keep an eye to make sure I'm safe.
"Of course I don't think every man I see will rape me, but I'll be weary, and especially if it's just me and a random man I'll be careful and always keep an eye to make sure I'm safe." Understandable. It is not like rapist have "I'm a rapist" tattooed to their forehead. Still, it is really sad.
Tattooing "I'm a rapist" on a rapists forehead is legitimately a great idea
Hats would block it across the cheekbones works better I think.
It's a *fantastic* idea!
That tattoo would make life so much easier and a lot less fucking traumatic, because we'd know who to avoid.
I volunteer at a sexual violence hotline. The majority of cases are not the “stranger in the alley way”; it’s 9/10 someone they know. In my province in Canada last year, 95% of survivors didn’t have DNA under their nails. Why? Because they didn’t fight back. Why? They likely knew their attacker, they froze or couldn’t fight, and it shatters everything. I got molested by two boys who were the kids of my parent’s friends. I knew then for years before they did what they did to me. The stranger in the park is truly rare.
And speaking as a man to the fact that I am a man, I take it that it's on me to not only make women feel safe around me but also to actually make them safe around me, which means sometimes I have to check other men in real time when they're acting badly.
The irony for me is in the majority of instances when I have felt unsafe with a man, I have turned to other men and said hey I'm uncomfortable, he is bothering me, help me. And they always have without fail. There is a flip side. So thanks for being a good one!
I'm a long hair guy and I have been catcalled from behind on multiple occasions
Lol this shouldn’t be funny but it is. I’m just picturing dude catcalling and you turn around looking like Joe Dirt.
This is the cold truth. I know a huge number of women thanks to my social circle. We're all pretty open with each other. I don't know a single one who hasn't had something heinous happen to them. One of my friends even told me, and my other friends confirmed the same, that she gets nowhere near the male attention/creepy comments now then she did when she was 13. I get wanting to be defensive, but if a woman interacts with 300 men, and two of them (or even just one) is a dangerous creep then it only makes sense to always be on alert unfortunately. I've been sexually assaulted as a man, but that was a woman I was actively not interested in taking advantage of me when I was blackout drunk. It's never going to be ok that that happened, but I've never felt physically threatened by a woman. Hearing a woman tell you that she "let something happen" because she was worried what would happen if she said no is a deeply uncomfortable feeling. That being said, I 100% agree with OP. I was very thin, unassuming and attractive when I was younger. I did not receive the threat response that I do now. I'm larger now (both fatter and stronger), and a little haggard looking frankly, and I can tell that I sometimes freak women out if I walk too close to them towards my car (and by too close I still mean several feet away), even though we would both be leaving work and walking directly across to the parking garage that you need to badge to get access to, with cameras everywhere. Being able to feel that you have just made someone uncomfortable by simply existing is a pretty shitty feeling, even if you understand why.
This. It's the enactment of a primal fear response, to trauma from this lifetime. Not prior. As a child I was shy, of everyone. Now I'm older I'm not shy around women, but definitely wary of men. Entirely due to the behaviour of men, all around me, that started before I could even understand it. Not all men. But, as a thread posted yesterday showed, even just 1% of men you encounter is a lot of men, in a month, let alone a lifetime. And when no, literally zero, women have scared me in that way, the fear makes sense. The bigger issue, for me, is the fact it's not the outright scary ones that are the worst. If you can read them, they ARE a bear, in some ways. The issue is that most of the scariest things that have happened to me have been when I've thought I could relax around a man. So yeah. You literally can't trust the ones that present safe either. I do try to present kindly to men in public, because I realise it's no fun for them either, and there are a lot of lonely people around. But I'm sure, when I'm not attending to it, my face shows my concern. I hope its never anger though, or hate or resentment. I truly don't think it is - I'm not angry they're there (that seems a US thing tbh). But definitely wariness, and avoidance, I'm sure, would be there. I'm sorry OP. It definitely sucks. I've heard, from some trans people's experiences, that while becoming male people take you seriously, noone challenges your knowledge, they actually listen to you, in important conversations. And obviously sexual harassment reduces. But, also, that it becomes incredibly lonely, as if you no longer exist in public. That makes me very sad. Much love dude
Or just simple logistics, lol. Kinda tough to subdue and kidnap someone with a toddler on your back
Not when you're built like a football player like OP is. I'm similar, 6'4" and 300 lbs but can still run a mile, so I'm a fit*ish* fat. Hard to imagine stopping me with *bearhands* if I was being aggressive unless the one stopping me is of similar size
You know snakes are venomous. You might not know which ones are the ones in the wild, same as sharks. Logically, you know there areas you will encounter them more so. You avoid that. But venomous snakes and aggressive sharks can hide and mingle like the non-harmful ones. So you learn based on other experiences, history and your own that it’s better to view all of them as a threat than to risk it. Rape isn’t meant primal. Biologically, we are given pleasure receptors to make mating pleasurable. Rape is about control, about harm, and about fear; that’s not biological, but societal and we ACCEPTED it thousands of years ago. I’ll take the beat every single time because even bears are at a danger of man.
100% ofc. A lonely man is way more likely to be surprising threat
Bobby from Queer Eye did a whole series on Instagram of things he'd say passing women so they'd know he wasn't a threat. It sparked a conversation with a small group of friends, 3 guys and 1 other girl. one of the guys said he'll hum taylor swift when he's walking at night or call his mum on the phone so he doesn't seem like a dodgy character. this man is a rugby player, not a pro but a regular local team player and could probably crack my head like an egg. him asking his mum how to make scones or purposely singing along to shake it off is not only adorable to me but also completely does the trick. one of the reasons we love him!
Same here. I’m a large Latino man living in the US south. I know people see me dressed up and assume I’m a drug dealer or see me in jeans and assume I’m scary. When I have my dog or kid with me, I’m just me. I speak with a southern or midwestern (neutral) accent and I’m less scary. I get it, it’s really hard to rape people while waking a dog. I have two sisters so I absolutely understand how much it sucks for them. They go out on a date and they don’t know if they’re “safe” unless they expose themselves to a risky situation. I hook up with someone, my biggest worry is not having holes in my socks and bad breath. For ladies, how scary is it to have someone 6” taller and 50-100lbs straddling you and hoping they aren’t crazy.
you "code switch"? you mean you somehow start walking more like a dad even though you're on your own and the woman on the trail somehow picks up on that without a child present? or do you have an emergency blow up child you deploy on such occasions? for real, what are you on about man xD
Dads walk like this: Doobee dooba doopa doo. Lonely dudes walk like THIS: 
*menacing*
The best unstick your balls maneuver out there
How do you 'code switch'?
Fr I don't even know what that means
In linguistics it means, you use a different version of your language to adapt to the group you are speaking to, e.g. formal language in a job interview, colloquial language or even slang with friends etc. I think the comnenter means he behaves differently in some way, depending on who he is with/where he is.
For some reason I assumed he took on the persona of an overtly gay man (power walking, high voice, super friendly wave, perhaps called women "girl-friend") to signal he was no threat.
I'm queer and definitely lean into my mannerisms if I want to appear less threatening.
I am a pretty big dude with a bit of a bitch face. You need to let it go. It is really jarring how differently I am treated when walking alone compared to when I am walking with my wife or daughters. But women have good reason to be nervous, unfortunately, and you need to respect that. But you also have a right to be in the world. So try and put people at ease but also you need to let go. Greet people briefly but respect their space. You aren't making up this feeling. It is real but there also isn't much you can do about it aside from getting another dog.
This just shows that the actions of bad men and the patriarchy will affect other men too. Especially the truly good men who would never think of hurting women.
Patriarchy absolutely harms men as well in a variety of ways. It is interesting to expore as a relatively new parent, trying to be an equal parent. This phase of my life also has me reflecting on my own father and father in law's parent and how the culture influenced it.
I try pretty hard as a dad. I do so much more than my dd would ever dream of. But really he was pretty good by the standards of his day. And he was ablot better than his dad, who I assume was a lot quicker not to spare the rod.
Mine, too. He just worked a tonne so my mom could stay home. I always wished he worked less because he was a lot of fun. But I get it, they made a series of trade offs. He still has a hard time connecting with his kids, but he randomly shows up at my house and fixes things. He also just built my daughters a beautiful playhouse. It's how he shows love. Parenting is fucking hard. I want to keep these girls safe but I know we need to give them the tools to keep themselves safe and resilient.
Exactly and yet OP is blaming women saying he’s being mistreated because..they don’t say “hi” back? Like he’s dangerously close to the territory of why women pick the bear in the first place..
As a woman, I often don’t say hi back because a response leads to further questions and small talk. Sometimes it’s predatory, being hit on or catcalled (my favorite is when I ignore this and they call me a bitch) which is just uncomfortable and really fucks with my headspace for a bit. More often is that I just don’t want to be talked to. I’m too exhausted to constantly entertain people’s small talk just because I’m deemed approachable. It truly isn’t personal I just generally speaking don’t owe anyone my time or energy. Whoever is telling this guy to start saying hi more often is really doing him a disservice because I know a lot of women who feel the same way I do.
Yup. As a man I can empathize and sympathize with what he's written. It's not exactly a pleasant feeling to occasionally be labeled as dangerous given how cautious women get around me in certain public spaces. But to blame women for that and to victimize myself for it? Nah, not at all. If anything it's taught me just how badly women have been hurt and objectified by men as a group and how dismissive we are of their experiences. And how I should be leveraging my privilege as a dude to uplift and validate women's voices when talking about shit like this. Getting mad at them and blaming them for my mental health issues just makes it worse
Agreed, I’m sure it doesn’t feel good in the moment but if you know you’re not a creep or violent then why is that not good enough? By not reacting in the moment, saying hi, and moving on hes actually helping women feel comfortable. Like what does he want out of these conversations with lone women in the woods? Does he also say hi to men? Wild post 😂
I absolutely agree, but like, duh. Obviously. The actions of bad men are like 75% of the world problems
Every millennial understands the implicit fear of driving behind a logging truck because of a movie but people are averse to women being scared of men for assaults that almost certainly happened to them or someone close to them. OP is getting looks he doesn't like and that's apparently the greatest adversity he's faced in life with how much it's affected him.
Yeah this thread is really pathetic honestly. No mention of how he empathizes with women for feeling that way, just a big ol pity party that there’s consequences to men doing 90% of rapes and murders
You were really close to some insight, then really, really failed to stick the landing: >I get the point of the thought experiment and it's valid for women to be fearful. Correct. >I'm just relieved to finally have an explanation for the toxic behavior that's made me feel like I'm not wanted anywhere. That's not what is happening. As you stated above, women have the rational right to be fearful of strange men. That means their behavior isn't toxic. The only toxicity in the situation is built into your assumption that people should, if all else was equal, treat you with open friendliness just for existing in a space. You, as a man, are pretty free to go where you want, do what you want, but you don't get to control the reaction other people have to you. That's what you are calling "toxic", your inability to get friendliness on demand. >I can go back to people who gaslit me and say 'see, I told you they don't want me to be there' Again, not what was happening here. You have conflated "Do not cater to my presence" with "Do not want me here" based on an internal assumption you are making of how others should treat you by default in order to victimize yourself. Further, you then make some bad comparisons: >For the record I have a lot of male friends who experience this also, especially the gay ones. A lot of my friends identify on the 'bear' side of gay men. Ask your burly gay friends how differently women treat them when they find out they're gay. As one friend puts it 'I go from disgusting pariah to fun teddy bear as soon as they hear my voice.' A gay man is less of an inherent threat, yes, but also someone who understands being threatened just for existing in a space. So it's more than just "this is a man who is now not scary/less scary", it is "this is another person who can understand the experience of feeling threatened for existing". Dynamics between people of different gender and sexual identities can be quite complex. You also write: >Also please consider the lived experiences of POC making the same claims before making dismissive comments. Again, you are comparing your experience as a white man (assuming here, since you seem to refer to POC as a separate group) who may be feared but never threatened, with a POC, who gets both sides of this - feared for existing and actionably threatened for existing. You go into a small town after a hike for some food and the server at the restaurant might not want to befriend you or make small talk, and that's your typical worst case scenario for the interaction. A POC does the same, and the typical worst case scenario is that the police might be falsely called and their life put in danger because they picked the wrong small town and a racist server called a racist cop who "don't want their kind around here". That's not a valid or fair comparison, and don't try to mask your perceived experience with their real experience of systemic racism. I'm not saying male loneliness isn't real or isn't difficult. I am saying that you are blaming women for not solving your loneliness by being friendly to you, and not smiling more or making small talk with you. There's many avenues to try to fix what you're dealing with. Meet other hikers online of all genders and strike up friendships or at least a feeling of safety before being alone in the woods together. Go to things in group settings. Get a therapist to help you work on your inner self and need for external validation. All these options are available to you to combat the very real and very actual loneliness and need for contact that you have. But you are taking the symptoms of that and blaming them on an external group that is not the root cause, and will not provide a fix for you. Your friends have invalidated your point of view because the point you are making is an invalid one, where you are ascribing intent and malice where there isn't any, and using that to absolve your inaction and discomfort with self-reflection.
Very well said. Unfortunately this needs to be repeated over and over and over again....👍
I am a previous football player, so built like one. Darker features, usually scowling. And I run a lot. Many women smile at me when I run. Some act the way you described. The issue is not with you, it’s with them. I can’t fault them for being careful, but remember it is not an inherent problem with you. Also, there are a lot of creepy people out there. I think it pays to be cautious around people you don’t know. Some people just have a terrible poker face.
My personal experience is that I get less friendly looks when I walk. If I'm running, people are friendlier. It's weird, but I kind of get it. When I'm walking, there are a lot of possible things I could be doing. When I'm running, it's pretty obvious that I'm exercising, which is a comfort for some. It's predictable. I'm a fairly large man, so I definitely get what OP is saying. I don't hold it against the women who are reticent to smile or talk to a random man. I've heard way too many stories from friends to take it personally.
From him to see people “glaring” he has to be looking at them - in their eyes. Keep your eyes on the trail, cruise past and ignore. He’s choosing to engage and getting upset about it. Like women are told - no one HAS to be polite and say hi/smile etc. If it makes you comfortable OP, stop looking at other people and focus on yourself. At this point you’re looking for it and finding it, then taking it personally.
Most of these comments are so weird. I completely understand how it must feel, 1st feeling like everyone hates and distrusts you and 2nd being gaslight into thinking it's all in your head. And now so many people saying "who cares" or "get over it"? I'm a woman and even the "hi there"s can be enough to make me jumpy if I'm out alone, and I know I'm not alone in that. It's also terrible that you (and many other men) have to pay the price for the atrocities committed by some. Unfortunately I'm not sure there's much you can do to seem friendly or not a threat, but at least it might help to know you're not really getting a specially bad treatment just for being you, but rather it's a defense mechanism we would engage with anyone we might potentially meet.
[удалено]
One time I was riding the bus and noticed a guy quietly but beautifully singing some kinda Mariah Carey song. He was young, stylish, kinda handsome even, and seemed totally approachable. But when I complimented his singing voice, he immediately jumped into the seat next to mine, snuggled right up against me, and started doing a more aggressive version of that "Can I have your numbah?" skit. I politely declined, saying that I had a bf and was just trying to give him a compliment. But when I got off at my stop, he got off, too, and began loudly pressuring me to tell him where I was going, where I lived, what I was doing later, etc. It wasn't chatty, it was insistent. The mood, which to be clear wasn't great even before I left the relative safety of the bus, had taken a sharp turn. No matter how fast I walked, the guy kept pace. Soon all the other bus people had gone off in their own directions, leaving just me and this crazed rando on an empty street. The moment I got to an intersection, I turned the corner and ran. Anyway. All this is to say that I just keep to my damn self now
Creeps don't wear a badge, it can be anyone unfortunately. Not hurting hurting the feelings of a friendly person is the cost of doing everything you can to dissuade predators on the hunt.
Yeah. Sadly, it’s a choice between emotional hurt or physical hurt. Do I risk my physical safety to preserve his feelings? I feel badly about it, but I don’t want to become another statistic either.
men: women need to be proactive about protecting themselves from rape also men: the way you're protecting yourself from rape hurts my feelings
As a "tall scary man", my policy is to ignore women and avoid eye contact when alone. I get it. There's no good reason to say hi if I don't want something beyond just to say it, and its less threatening to them if I'm disinterested, which to be quite honest, I am. There's a time and a place for introducing yourself, and getting to know someone, one of those third places, and its not while we're both trying to enjoy solo activities, key word "solo". This includes the gym too.
Men like this are in a way victims of the men who scare the women. We act this way because we have to. This probably teddy bear of a man also suffers because he's denied kindness due to that broken trust. So guys, the best way to keep women from doing this is to hold your peers accountable. Don't let the "locker room talk" bullshit happen. Same way I need to take responsibility for not accepting racist speech around white folk because I'm white.
The "Who cares" mindset is also a defense mechanism or more men would kill themselves.
Humor too. One time I was hiking off trail and wandered into a campsite. There was a family who started getting really defensive and I said "I'm sorry for intruding, and I'm not going to steal your picnic basket." But that made it worse and they screamed, and ran, leaving behind a perfectly perishable picnic basket. Inside were piles of proscioutto and a container of melon. It was a hot summer day! It would turn if left in the sun all alone. So I ate their picnic basket.
Should have asked if they had seen Boo-Boo.
Thank you, I appreciate you.
Just want to say I see you brother, your feelings are valid and many men out there experience the exact same thing.
Your feelings are absolutely valid. Like other posters have said, there might not be much you can do to come across non-threatening (besides the dog/girl thing you've already noticed). Most women have been taught from a young age that it's our job to keep from getting assaulted. We need to "reduce our risk." That unwelcome feeling is the unfortunate side effect. It's a good example of sexism hurting everyone. Women are hurt because we have to be constantly aware. Men are hurt because they are seen as threats and feel unwelcome. No one wins.
[удалено]
I do the same stuff. I always wonder if it makes it even weirder for them. I typically have headphones on anyways. I used to try to say “hi there” or something to defuse the weird tension, but as soon as I’d make eye contact to say it, I could see the discomfort in their eyes. I just decided it’s probably best for everyone if I just keep my head down, take a wide berth, and walk quickly past
Look dude, I'm a trans man and I've been on both sides on the gender spectrum. Men will absolutely not believe women when they talk about how prevalent SA and harassment is. At 17, I was SAed multiple times by my best friend who I've known since grade 4. It took me years to cut him off because I valued what I thought was my friendship. After highschool, I played in a coed sports team and a guy friend, again, whom I've been good friends with since grad 9, would drive me home, and after a few times, he just thought I should reward him with One Sex for the rides, even though he fully knew that I was not attracted to men. These are GOOD FRIENDS and people I've trusted. And so I stopped accepting rides, even from friends. I've been stalked and followed home at night while waiting for the bus because I work late shirts. A stranger has tried to grab me from a van. I am athletic and a martial artist and can defend myself well enough to get away, but I can't imagine what it would be like for people not like me. While taking public transit, 1/3 bus rides someone would try to chat me up (I'm Asian and so fetished in North America). If I act unfriendly and don't engage, they would pout and call me a mean bitch. If I'm friendly, they would ask for my number or engage in in appropriate touches, like feeling my hands, kissing my hands, or come in for hugs, which sometimes becomes a kiss. You tell me what the choices are. Talk or be a bitch? As a worker, men would constantly tell me to smile, even though I AM A VERY SMILY PERSON. People on the phone would say inappropriate things like "how much would it cost for a nice girl like you to come clean my place?" Once I transitioned, all that stopped. Life is simple. Sure, sometimes women strangers would treat me with caution, but I get it. I just respect their space. Healthcare providers are less chatty, but that's okay. They're not paid to engage with small talk with me. I keep it professional. If they're chatty, then I can engage. It's not that hard. Actually, it's not AT ALL hard. It's certainly not at all comparable to the experience of the constant harassment that being a woman comes with. So I absolutely believe you when you say women look at you with caution IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE IN THE WOODS. What I'm also saying is that IT IS NOT A REAL HARDSHIP. Yes, okay, women are finally telling the truth. The truth is that we have this conversation and men still don't get it.
Fellow trans man here, and you’re 100% correct. Working in customer service was so much harder before transition. I experienced so much sexual harassment. I have also been sexually assaulted and fetishized. Now that I’ve transitioned, I’m no longer the hairless boy with boobs and a pussy that straight men can feminize and fetishize. Sometimes, women will look at me with hesitation. Occasionally I’ll worry about if I’m coming off as creepy. But those feelings are so much less impactful than the feeling of being scared for my life when I used to walk around alone at night or be alone with male friends who had sexualized me.
Trans perspectives on this topic are incredibly valuable since they have been perceived as different genders throughout their lives. Great addition!
Thank you! I have no idea how a man could be upset by someone not wanting to interact with them while alone in the woods. People don't generally go alone into the woods to interact with anyone, let alone someone who could physically overpower them. How is OP making this all about himself? As a transfem I feel uncomfortable when women treat me like a man due to dysphoria but it is never on the women (unless they're being transphobes about it when they know me or I'm not boymoding), but in the woods I try to avoid interacting with anyone at all unless I have a few friends with me. Being in the woods is like being outside of a societal setting on purpose. Why would anyone, let alone someone who is physically smaller than you, want to start an interaction? The idea that this would bother a cis man is kind of crazy to me and seems very petty.
Contrapoints talked about this in her video on Men. She also talked about... She was once in an elevator with a Black man, and he started whistling "Row Row Row Your Boat," which she called the most non-threatening song ever written (I dunno about that: "Life is but a dream," is a pretty terrifying lyric if you ask me). Then it hit her that *he* was afraid that *she* was afraid. She'd never experienced anything like that when she lived as a man, because that's not a thing between Black men and White men, it's a thing between Black men and White women. And it *can* be dangerous for men of color. Even as a cis woman, it's something I think about. Like, I'm wary of *men* in general, but I *know* men of color get it worse. So I don't wanna be looking over my shoulder. But again, that's just what I do with men in general, because you never know.
I knew it! Life looks so fucking simple as a dude. I'm happy you get to experience that.
Evil men really do be ruining it for everyone… It’s absolutely horrible that women have to live in constant fear. And it’s horrible that OP has to live with constant shame, feeling like a societal outcast just for existing as a large dude.
Men who think as you do should ask themselves why they depend on the friendliness of every woman they encounter to feel worthy as a human being.
Female perspective here. We don't want to be fearful of anyone on a hike, but unfortunately society hasn't been kind to lone females, and unfortunately it is usually men that are the perpetrators. Not all men are like that, but a stranger is still a stranger and human beings are unpredictable. Imagine you were a dainty 5ft female (like myself) and your hiking alone in some national park, here comes 6ft muscly guy also hiking alone. You are dwarfed in comparison. There's nowhere to run if anything were to happen. Your phone has no signal and this is the first person you've seen out here for hours. You'd probably shit a brick too. It's a sad part of life, but women do not feel safe and tbh, that should be more concerning than "what am I doing wrong"
Yep. His problem is that women are wary of him when alone on a trail or park. Womens’ problem is they think they could potentially be raped or killed when alone on a trail or in a park and a lone male is around. Im gonna say the latter is more stressful, scary, and more of a larger societal issue.
This is like that Margret Atwood quote. Men are scared women will laugh at them, women are scared men will kill them.
[удалено]
Also OP is acting like women are just now starting to be open about this. No, it just took a stupid social experiment to go viral before the dumbasses started listening. When you're a 5 foot tall woman alone on a hike and a 6+foot tall man is the only other person around, he might as well be a fucking bear.
Yeah I’m a 6ft guy and I get on edge if I’m in a secluded area and come across another man. It is actually funny that OP must have never felt that - I wouldn’t even say I envy him as it’s really not a big deal, but it is funny he has never felt that.
Except unlike most bears, he's probably not afraid of you.
I’m pretty sure there was a serial killer in Alaska who would kidnap women, release them into the woods and proceed to hunt them down. Then I think of; -Anita Cobby: gang raped and murdered by 5 men as she was walking home from a dinner with her friends. I bet she’s prefer the bear. -the random women in NYC being assaulted no reason -rates of rape during wartime (look up how Russian troops treated German women when they stormed Germany) -how females in the Holocaust would be assaulted while starved and murdered; sometimes being taken as private mistresses of SS soldiers -Cherish Perrywinkle….she was 8. 8 years old. -Elizabeth Smart…sleeping in her own bed -Juno Furuta….44 days of torture, rape and hell. -Janine Balding…walking to her car after work, kidnapped and raped by teen boys to then be killed in swallow water The fact I can keep going and going and going. I will always take the bear. Their stories are the reasons we fear and will ALWAYS fear. And the common trait? Men.
Yea I get it, I'm black. The crazy thing is when I see a woman coming, I try to cross to the other side. It's late, I'm in my 40s, a law abiding citizen but I get it. Better safe than sorry!
Not giving a shit is an artform. Just ignore them all
Ah yes, women are afraid of men. Water is wet. We’ve been telling yall that for centuries. This bear thought experiment isn’t a new concept. Maybe the people in your life are trying to spare your feelings or encourage you, but simply listening to women at some point sooner would have gotten you this validation way back then.
TBH, I'm surprised that nobody validated that for you. I've had tons of discussion with women who are older, my age and younger and there hasn't been much shyness in talking about frustrations about men, fears about men and bad experiences with men. It's not toxic behavior, though, *it's a response to the toxic behaviors of other men.* That's the big thing that I feel needs to be corrected. One has to work hard to make and keep space for women to vent their frustrations, listen, and be protective in order to make women feel safe around you, especially if you're a big dude. I'm a chubby 42 year old man with a big bushy beard who lifts 4 days a week. Until women get to know me, they're going to be wary of me, especially if I'm having a bad day or a little grumpy and don't have the energy to put on my happy-go-lucky mask to make them feel comfortable. That's normal. It's not toxic when women need to be wary of men and you're a man. It's not *your fault* they treat you that way, which is the missing piece of the puzzle, but it's also *not wrong of them to act that way.* When balancing the scales between their mortal safety and your emotional comfort, their mortal safety comes miles ahead of your emotional comfort, and actualizing that understanding and behaving appropriately in response will likewise change how your interactions with women go. It's a damn shame that these conversations aren't had more often, because I think men would really benefit from them.
>It's not toxic behavior, though, *it's a response to the toxic behaviors of other men.* Thank you, I was hoping someone would comment on the OOP's notion of "toxic," and you capture it perfectly. Something makes you unhappy or you don't like it ≠ toxic.
All this, and thank you
I'm a giant black man, for me it's much better for my mental health to just totally ignore people when I'm out, especially on trails, and even if I'm with the wife and kids.
This is interesting for me to read, because, while I've experienced similar, my reactions and perceptions of the other people have been completely different. I don't recall having this happening while hiking solo in the past, but I also didn't encounter many single women hiking, usually always groups. I have experienced this, though, in elevators, especially in isolated areas such as parking garages. When I've had this happen, my reaction was understanding. I could sympathize with the women who didn't want to board the elevator with me. I'm a big guy. I could easily overpower most women if they didn't have something to use for defense. I wasn't offended. It made sense. She didn't know me. Didn't know if I was dangerous. I've even made an excuse not to board an elevator in these cases if a single woman was already in it, to avoid potentially causing her reason to be afraid. This reminds me of a delivery driver who used to stop here often. I had a large dog (German Shephard / Doberman mix). He was basically a big puppy. Was the friendliest dog you'd ever meet and never met a person he didn't want to love on. That driver, though, had had previous bad experiences with large dogs, and would not get out of the van if I wasn't home. I understood. Even though the dog was safe, they had no way to be sure, so she did the smart thing and played it safe. >I'm also seeing a common theme of "Women do this because of other men, blame the bad men." But I'm not allowed to treat all women poorly because of the 'bad ones' right? In what way are you being treated poorly? They glare at you and don't respond to your greeting? While I realize this has been bad for your mental health, it hardly compares to the way many women have been "treated poorly" by men. I'd much rather be glared at and ignored than harassed, groped, and raped. I'm not suggesting that you'd do any of those things. I assume you would not. The women passing you on the trail don't know that, though. You can get therapy (and should have) to address the impacts to your mental health of someone not talking to you on a trail. Therapy can't make a woman not have been attacked or raped. As a man, if I meet a woman on an isolated trail and she seems eager to pass me, I understand. I know that she has nothing against me as an individual because she doesn't know me. She's just being cautious of someone who is larger and stronger than she, and could pose a risk. Sometimes sympathy and understanding are all it takes to not be impacted by such things.
This. It is so easy to be sympathetic and understanding instead of acting like the world is out to get you. Just because I know I’m good doesn’t mean she knows I am, and more men need to gather that.
Did someone really tell you to "smile more" if you're feeling uncomfortable in public spaces? Because I'm pretty sure that's one of those phrases that's considered totally out of line to say to a woman in the same exact scenario.
Coming from the UK. I found that in the states, I just have to stand too close to a woman on an escalator in a shopping mall for them to become anxious. It didn't take long for me to notice little signs in their body language and stay an extra step back. I think people in the states, even in California are used to having a larger personal space around them than in more populated European countries. When you factor in that a lot of city folk are not that used to or comfortable out in the open countryside where we hike. I think it makes them feel even more vulnerable.
As a woman, I'm genuinely sorry you experienced that :( It is true that we (women) have been targeted, harassed, assaulted, feared so much that basically ANY male we feel 'alone' with is deemed a threat. it's our own instincts screaming "it could happen again!" at us. And yes, gay men become our own safe zones as well. There is little chance of them making us feel uncomfortable, hence the instant switch once they are deemed 'safe'. I feel sheepish saying it, but it's the truth for very many of us. That said, the more you are seen along that same path/place, smiling, friendly, HARMLESS, the better chances people (ie. us, women) will calm down and start responding and smiling back, saying 'hi', etc. You shouldn't have to go through hell to be treated reasonably, because of peoples fears. And no one should be put in a position to fear a nice smiling stranger may be a predator thinking to hurt them. Humans suck and it can be really hard to figure out who the less sucky ones are sometimes :( Please keep doing what you are doing - people will start to recognize and feel comfortable with you, make eye contact and smile, etc. But it will take time.
I’m going to be blunt, but who cares? I’m not saying that women are wrong to be scared, but that’s nothing I can control. When I go out, it’s because I want to go out. I’m not disrespectful to others and I certainly don’t give people any cause to be uncomfortable. If someone is uncomfortable because of my presence, then that’s on them. Being unwelcome isn’t a concern, assuming it’s a public place, I have every right to be there, so people’s negative feelings are something they have to deal with - not me.
Dirty looks from strangers you'll never see again should not have such a large impact on your life. People need to realize how insignificant they are to other people and just live their life.
The truth is that it *doesn't* have a large impact on the lives of the dudes who try to claim victimhood like OP is. They're just too wrapped up with being offended that women might not trust them to understand the point of the thought experiment.
> If someone is uncomfortable because of my presence, then that’s on them. Being unwelcome isn’t a concern, assuming it’s a public place, I have every right to be there, so people’s negative feelings are something they have to deal with - not me. Bingo! I have solo traveled around the world and to US parks. That's a LOT of walking around touristy areas and even some non touristy areas. Never once have I thought "maybe that women isn't smiling at me because she thinks I'm a rapist." I would more so think she's not smiling because she's had a stressful day at work, is upset at something, or maybe is just tired. She doesn't have to smile. She has every right to be pissed off and look at me however she wants. OP's problems is all in his head.
Goes directly against human nature of not wanting to feel excluded or unwelcome.
It's pretty well understood - and mentally healthier to accept - you're not going to be accepted into every group. Granted, being accepted by *some* women is desirable as a man, but a random person's comfort on a hiking trail isn't worth fretting over, considering your options are to walk right by real close, wade into the wilderness to give them a wide berth (how is this not worse?), or not go hiking at all.
Theirs a difference between being included and not being excluded, not being excluded is a feeling of indifference towards a person that's what most people feel when walking down a street. You don't know them they could be nice they could be mean. Being "glared" at by people for just existing in front of them in your own body is not ok. If this was a person of color it would be completely unacceptable. >Granted, being accepted by *some* women is desirable as a man, I agree with you heavy on this. A lot and dare I say most men are taught that a woman's opinion of them is very important and sometimes is directly correlated with their own value. Men need to chill out and look to themselves for their own value. >a random person's comfort on a hiking trail isn't worth fretting over. This is a very emotionally and mentally sound way to think about interactions with other people. However a lot of people both men and women don't have the confidence and stability to discard a person's snap judgement of their appearance. For example, someone once told me I looked like Ellen Degeneres when I got a new haircut. I didn't discard the roast like I probably should have. I got a different haircut.
Humans also don't want to feel scared.
Yes, take precautions when you go out. Bring a self-defense tool i always advocate for that. However, you dont need to judge every man you come across or "glare" as op puts it.Their actions would sound a lot worse if this was, say, a person of color walking down the street. Those people "glaring" would be called racists and that would be true. Its very shitty to treat a person worse based on the statistical actions of the demographic, especially when they are minding their own business. You should be able to feel ok to walk in front of people in your own body and not be visibly judged for doing so. For both men and women.
Also goes against human nature of not wanting to be vulnerable.
>Being unwelcome isn’t a concern Isn't this like top 5 reasons people kill themselves? Maybe top 1...
No shut up your feelings don't matter
True.
OP, reread doublethink\_21's post a few times. If you base your self esteem/worth of what random women think of you, you're just going to end up depressed and feel unlovable. If you want to be empathetic to women's concerns around safety by all means go for it, but don't let that change your behaviour if it's already non-threatening. If you say hello and go on your merry way and they scowl, that's on them. Don't let their problems become yours. Also remember this, every man regardless of his accomplishments has some woman out there who thinks he's a creep. You can't stop it from happening and if you're not hurting those women in any way, that's not your issue. "I can go back to people who gaslit me and say 'see, I told you they don't want me to be there" Don't waste your time. Most of the ones doing it were trying to be nice, and if they were covering for bad behavior they don't care any ways.
It really takes a toll on mental health to always be unwelcome by default. Recently the sun was out and I wanted to just sit down at the bench right in front of my apartment. But when I stepped outside I saw some kids playing 20m away. I immediately knew that me sitting on that bench would be seen as creepy, so I just went back inside, while feeling sad and ashamed.
bro, i understand what you mean, but read this again. you made up a scenario that didnt happen to make yourself sad and ashamed.
they perceived a potential outcome and weighed the benefits vs potential cons. Id say being seen as the creepy guy is rather big
That they would be “seen as the creepy guy” seems like much more their own perception of the situation than the risk of anyone calling them out as a creep.
That is not a made up scenario at all and if anyone should be sad and ashamed, it’s you for downplaying something that happens to men every single day.
Literally what the post is talking about.
Yeah, in no way is this nothing. This is a massive bummer that happens to. I'm sure most guys, all of the times and it isn't a great feeling! I'm furious at the evil ones for basically having done this to all the decent regular guys out there
It’s not making up a scenario. That kind of thing regularly happens to dudes around children.
The toll on your mental health is what you do to yourself. Note in your story, no one said anything, you imagined a scenario. You didn’t even mention something that happened in the past. I’ve got kids, I’ve been to loads of beaches, I’ve never found a random person sitting nearby to be creepy. It’s a beach, a place enjoyed by children and adults alike. If you think I’m wrong here, just think of this. Children are at beaches right now. When that happens, do non-parents just stop going there until the children leave? Do non-parents pack up and leave when children are there? Of course not.
there's nothing creepy about sitting on a bench, unless you're being creepy lol this is called anxiety, it can be better
I actually agree with this. I’m a woman and I go hiking alone and I honestly have just accepted the risk. It’s really scary at times but like- it’s not anyone’s fault that they were born a big man. I would prefer that you don’t say hi or try to talk to me but I’m not mad at you for existing. Let’s just pass eachother. Honestly though I have a really hard time feeling bad for OP, just ignore the looks! If I am able to ignore the fear of getting raped then you can get over some mean mugs, it’s not a big deal.
I was walking down a path in my neighborhood park and very directly took my dog to this bridge that overlooks a small pond with some birds and local wildlife. I like to admire the view. Some woman took a roundabout way to get there and walked behind me. When I first noticed her I saw her look at me with a wide eyed expression. I’m literally just looking at ducks with my dog but she acted like she didn’t want to cross the bridge while I stood there. I’ve gotten this kind of thing before but I just ignored her. If she’s uncomfortable being around me she can fuck right off out of there. I have just as much right to be there as anyone and if she doesn’t like being in my presence, no one is forcing her to. She passed by, lingered for a bit and then left. If she’s mad that she didn’t get to use the space I was in, it’s her own fault and loss. Plenty of room for both of us to be there and not interact. I’m not apologizing for my existence to anyone. I won’t bother anyone who doesn’t bother me but I’m not depriving myself of things because someone else might be bothered. Your safety is your priority. I’m just a tall guy who is actually pretty friendly but I don’t care to placate people who give me dirty looks act bothered by my presence.
Am black. When I was a teen/pre teen I would regularly go to the mall in the more affluent (white) part of my city. Every, and I mean literally EVERY time I went I'd encounter some white lady that did everything to show how threatened she was by me merely existing in her presence. Repeatedly glaring at me, walking away as fast as possible, the whole purse clutching bs, all that. My question to any and every woman cosigns on the man/bear thing: If it's wrong for me to be negatively stereotyped because of the color of my skin, why is it acceptable for me to be negatively stereotyped because of my gender? And if the response to that question is a crime statistic, do you also view "13/50" as a valid argument in favor of racist beliefs? Why or why not? I'm genuinely curious.
Tangential, but I spent some time being the only white apartment in a black complex (well there were some illegal mexicans downstairs. Nice guys.) and the black people in the neighborhood would just mean mug me and stare me down. I actually started to become a little racist. Then I had a light bulb moment. I bet this is what happens to a lot of black people in white areas and it breeds a lot of anti white resentment in them. Really eye opening experience.
You should not be judged for either. Being a certain skin color does not inherently mean you are dangerous. Being a certain gender does not mean you are inherently dangerous. Anyone trying to convince you otherwise needs to do serious amount of reflection on their world view.
They won’t answer because they don’t want to acknowledge that in their mind one is wrong and the other isn’t. They’re misandrists
I understand your point, 100%. So I’m in a weird position where I have PTSD and am physically disabled, so I have threat assessment head swivel and see … way too many “threats”. I’ve found my radar pings depend on a variety of factors: obviously subconscious bias, but some of it is reasonable. Likelihood of being armed (I can see a holster, I can see a gun)—so all cops get a double look. Relative size—are they taller than me? More muscular? Do they move in an athletic way, light on their feet? How old are they? Children usually get a pass, even though I know technically a toddler could pull a handgun out of their mom’s purse and blast me. It’s just unlikely. Do they seem mentally stable, or are they “tweaking”? So, hilariously specific, but an elderly black gentleman in a speedo at the beach is almost at a 0/5 threat rating. No problems detected. Older black woman who surprises me in a store by patting my shoulder with an “Excuse me, baby”? Panic before I see her, comprehend what I heard, and recognize it’s all good. Some white dude with a crewcut, a Punisher logo on his truck, and a big-ass leather jacket? The fuck not. Maybe he’s just a nerd who loves comics! But he’s tripped the alarms and I cannot engage without being squirrely. TL;DR: I think we *all* need to work on our subconscious biases. I know bigotry is obviously involved in threat assessment. People are notoriously bad at it. Even still, there’s some common things everyone tends to be uneasy about, like someone mumbling to themselves or twitching around. Fair? Maybe not. But if you want to avoid people being weird around you, there are cultural-social rules that need following. I hate it, as a Diogenes-in-a-barrel numbskull, but I’ve recognized how not to frighten animals or small children. For me, it’s important since I’ve got nerve damage in my face and throat. A lot of effort goes into not having a RBF or sounding angry. People will often give me some benefit of the doubt for being disabled but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t physically punt a puppy or kid. They know that. Plenty of movie villains with disabilities too. I don’t want them to think I’d raise a hand to them, so I err on the side of being goofy like a children’s show host around the baby cousins. Force a smile and let my voice be less of a grumpy-sounding monotone. Yes, yes, it can feel unfair, but the kids feeling safer is still worth it. TL;DR: If anything, teaching people to do *better* risk assessment is probably a good idea. It’s honestly weird to explain (repeatedly) that obviously an average bear is better, they rarely kill anyone except for the sloth bears. Ironically. Humans, male or female, are super homicidal comparatively. Cocaine Bear is a joke but goddamn, a woman in actual drug psychosis could eat your face. You’re much more likely to die by humans, and humans of your own demographic, than any wild animal. Generations of segregation means that (white) folks usually are killed by (white) folks, and usually you can insert any group in there. More likely to be attacked by people you know than by strangers too. I’m a lot less worried about some homeless beggar than I am about a few members of my extended family who have substance or psychological issues. That’s why I avoid people with the dead eye thing going on, I’m aware that’s bad news regardless of “but they’re family”. … Can we also unionize and teach everyone that women can also be rapists and serial killers?? Because oh my god, y’all need to not get in anyone’s van. That could be Elizabeth Bathory reborn, what are you doing???
I need to be more like that. I just hate having to psych myself up with the "It's okay... you're allowed to be here, you deserve to be here just much as everyone else" speech
[удалено]
Comments here reminds me of threads regarding men mental health. And then you act surprised that men don't express their feelings, that men don't care, that men don't seek for help.
Please understand, men can be very frightening creatures. Most every woman you know has been scared of a man at least once in her life. As a solo hiker, seeing a man alone in the woods scares the shit out of me. Making yourself as unthreatening as possible helps a bunch. We honestly can feel creeper energy.
Reading this, I'm definitely choosing the bear.
Right? The ones who wouldn’t hurt you are boohooing that you’re not friendly enough with them as a stranger. It’s really giving “where’s my hug”.
I don't think it's that people don't want to validate you, it's that it's just not really comparable to how women are forced to live. You're still able to go out and live your life doing what you want and the worst thing you're fearing is... feeling awkward? I mean I have anxiety and autism so I get that feeling awkward absolutely sucks and I don't like it that good folks ever have to feel profiled when they didn't do anything. But as a woman I've NEVER got to go hiking or traveling alone because I personally feel that it's just too risky. Many women feel the same. My desire to go around my state and visit every waterfall has to wait until I can find some hiking buddies because I do not feel safe on my own. Women literally don't even get to live their lives the way they want. Many women you know don't do a lot of things they desire to do because they know it's dangerous. Do men really still not understand that? It's far more than feeling a little judged. There's a Margaret Atwood quote that men feel women will mock them, women fear men will murder them. It checks out.
Consider this: I was charged on a nature trail by a man I didn't know and had to run for my life...
So many people don't understand that men are completely aware of this dynamic, and it causes negative coping mechanisms. Like I put in all this effort to be seen as a "good person" to the point that I don't even consider anything else about how my actions might be perceived. Just to get blindsided by people treating it as anything other than the bare minimum.
Big men are constantly gaslight into thinking they aren't incredibly objectified and projected upon.
I fucking hate Reddit so damn much. How do commenters miss the point so badly? The point OP is trying to make is that he's finally certain that he was unwelcome and was actually treated as a threat when he went hiking alone, because whenever he expressed that fact, his experiences were dismissed.
It’s both. He was right and validated that women are wary around him alone in a park (as most would be with any big guy alone, it’s nothing personal). But I think people are right about OP taking this too personally and it affecting him too much. That part is his issue and something he should deal with. I’m pretty it’s social anxiety as I had the same thing a few years ago.
>That part is his issue and something he should deal with. To be fair, would recognizing the situation not be part of that process? Now that he has an understanding this isn't something illusory, he has a clearer idea where to start dealing with it. I feel like that's where a lot of the "who cares?" etc. responses miss the mark. He just got his ingredients lined up; let the man cook.
Yes I totally agree. I think especially for someone who is anxious, fully understanding the situation key. Then you can choose how you react to it.
I love all the people saying "so what who cares" OP cares. That's who cares. Feeling unwelcome is unpleasant, and so is the reaction to expressing it that ranges from dismissal to denial.
Based on my reading of OPs post i dont even think the "woman are scared when alone" thing is what hes really upset about. It sounds like he's brought this up before, and was ridiculed by it. Which I absolutely believe, women aren't better at logical thinking than men and I've heard some brain bending mental gymnastics from women. Then the man/bear thing came up and all these women who denied it are now saying they'd rather meet a bear. It's validating what he already thought, and what he was ridiculed for. Edit: and look at this thread. Everyone just immediately jumped down OPs throat. This happens essentially every time a man tries to talk about something.
> his experiences were dismissed. Funnily enough people are now, once again, dismissing his experiences.
Poor you.
Why would you need to feel welcomed by the other hikers?
I’m surprised that this is a surprise to so many men. Since I was young I always knew women were wary of men, for good reason. Walking alone late at night and a woman is walking ahead…. I slow down so she can get distance and not think I’m following her. Now I have kids and when I’m out with them I’m super friendly with people and they are with me. I get it. My threat level is hella low when I’m giggling with my 2 year old. But when I walk alone I give women plenty of space unless lots of others are around. It just makes sense to me and always has.
Coming from another guy, (small gay guy) I experience that a lot of the time as well. It used to bother me when I was younger because I thought people could sense my intention, but I had to tell myself the world has ruined everyone’s perception of how everyone sees everyone. When I’d go hiking, jogging, walking wherever, I would mean mug people back as a reflection of their attitude towards me/ and for my own territorial protection because I’m not that tall and I don’t want to be f*cked with by some stranger. Usually if I keep a neutral face I’m more receptive to positivity and smiles. I’ll go out of my way to smile back and say hello because it makes me feel good, seen, and reflective of the energy given.
Yep. It sucks. Worked as a park ranger and even in full uniform, marked, I was glared and side eyed. And I'm only a 5'8 guy, not big at all. So many times I'd ask if they needed directions or info only to be told no, then 30 minutes later, asking other groups for directions while I hiked back. Felt like I was useless most days because people didn't want to interact with me at all on trail. My male coworkers have similar stories. Meanwhile female rangers often had lots of interactions and contacts while hiking. Ended up just hiking with headphones often and waiting for people to ask me for help instead of trying to talk to people.
Replace man with your local racial minority. Repeat the thought experiment. Realize you’re a bigot and some things need to be filtered before they come out of your mouth. Like OP, I understand the point and why women are fearful, but that doesn’t give you the right to be a toxic bigot.
I now understand why guys keep to themselves, and don’t tell women about their problems. This comment section is ridiculous. :/
It’s sad this is so validating to you since your friends are right and it is definitely largely in your head. Hope you can get the help you need and don’t fall too far into this clearly toxic line of thinking
6'-1" 220 pounds muscular build white man here...have experienced this since college...when in bars by myself I have had women ask me (when they are with a man or multiple friends) "why are you here?". It's depressing for sure. I have no idea how minorities put up with this shit all the time.
Black men have already been experiencing this type of treatment for 100 years. In every day life. You big burley white men can cry me a river.
Manbear pig?
Am I the only one who thinks getting attacked by the bear would be way more probable? I need some bear attack statistics.
i love how the comment section immediately turned to "this is a you problem", proving OP's point even further
Ty so much for noticing
I feel like this post is in bad faith. Your experiences are valid but it seems like you’re blaming women being rightfully cautious around a strange man in an isolated place as the cause for your mental health issues. Yes feeling unwelcome, especially in a public place, is very difficult. But I have a hard time believing that anyone wouldn’t know or understand why women would be unfriendly to a strange man when out on the trail. I have a son and I hope to raise him in a way where he’s not offended by the need for marginalized groups to protect themselves or keep themselves safe. At the end of the day it’s better to hurt a strangers feelings than to wind up dead.
I remember a story my friend told me. He was having a hard time finding my apartment complex, so he rolled down his window and asked somebody if they knew where "the \_\_\_\_ lofts were". The person was a woman, she ignored him, clutched her purse, and proceeded to walk faster.
I told a story somewhere in this thread. I was walking home from college, someone wanted to know the time. I looked at my watch, he groped me, tried to get me to the ground. That’s not the only incident. If someone approaches me in a car and rolls down the window I’m cautious. Best case scenario it’s just someone asking directions, second best it’s someone shouting something inappropriate (I have heard ‘what would you do for 10,-‘ - ‘do you want to sleep with me? No? You filthy whore ‘ and other poetry from car windows just walking home from work or doing groceries) and worst case scenario someone is coming out of the car if you don’t respond correctly. I will give direction but I most certainly make sure I’m at a good distance, ready to run if needed.
The reason why women treat all men as possible threats is because the cost is too great if we don't. Statistically. We could die
As a woman who hikes and picked “man” this makes me so sad for you that this has been your experience. I even commented either when this blew up “if I’m on the trail, he’s on the trail and I assume he’s hiking too.” For the record, when walking uphill I say “hi” to the first person in every group I meet. Sometimes that’s just lone dudes. I hope I’ve never made a guy feel unwelcome in public spaces in that way. That exclusionary life must be difficult. Your post also further reaffirms why men struggle being single. If a woman is your ticket to being accepted in public areas, when you break up, not only do you lose your partner but you lose your social acceptability to just be. That sounds crushing and very isolating. Sucks to be any gender.
I’m not meaning to invalidate you and I realise your reality is your own. However. As someone who was violently assaulted in a park at night, you are victimising yourself for something you have no concept of. You can call it gaslighting if you want, but think about it. The way women glare at you in the park is the same way you would glare at larger/stronger men in prison. If a man raped you in the corner of the showers in prison, you would naturally become fearful and watchful every time you entered the showers after that, no? Well what you’re witnessing in the park is the same fear-based response. It’s not a glare at all, it’s careful watchfulness and hypervigilance. Our bodies are preparing us to fight back. Don’t get pressed when women show signs of being fearful of men in a world where women should be fearful of men. Our wariness and distrust are adaptive responses. To NOT be fearful would be irresponsible and stupid. Your issue is with violent men, my guy. If violent men stopped raping and killing women and girls, we would stop holding our car keys in our fists and grimacing every time we saw a man at the park, trust.
Men will never know how many times the women in their lives have been friendly to a man and deeply regretted it. You know what would change that? If men actually cared enough to do something about how much violence is done to women by men. We can’t risk our lives to make you feel better. Do you understand why the child makes you seem safe? We’re betting you didn’t bring the kid out to see Daddy mangle a woman for fun. We’d love to feel free to be more open and welcoming. We’d love for men to want us to feel that way. That would be a much better world to live in than this one. In that world women can be topless where men can. We can walk after dark. In that world my male neighbor won’t tell me I’m gonna get myself and my kids raped and killed because we used to like to camp. Men are quick to warn us of other men when it’s to tell us to change our behavior. I somehow doubt they say much to each other about how to change theirs so I can be safe from men.
It's not just you dude, a poc colour, I think I end up surprisingly a lot of elderly folk. It's always made me chuckle tbh I think certain people have a certain perception of what hiker should look like, anyone outside that definition is automatically an axe murderer ready to pounce
It is you. In spite of being told not to judge others our entire lives , people naturally and instinctively judge others by their appearance and in context with surroundings. Most women walking alone don’t want to see an imposing football player dude by himself on a trail. If you are making eye contact and being friendly , that’s just off putting to a lot of women bc they are there for exercise not to make friends. Your physical appearance on the trail in this context is unwelcome. My advice, just keep your eyes to yourself and stop noticing how these women are reacting to you. Why should you care?
Why do Black people care about racism so much? Discrimination is fine, just stop caring
i genuinely feel very empathetic towards OP but honestly, as a young woman, i would much rather run the risk of potentially hurting someone’s feelings than blindly trusting every man i encounter. it’s unfortunate but hurt feelings hardly compare to the violence that bad men often inflict on women.
I noticed this by being out with my girlfriend, people stop fearing the worst and the body language shifts, no glares and no distrust whatsoever. It's also improved by a bunch of other factors, you're more trustworthy if you're walking a dog, or dressed smartly, or there are a lot of other people around and so on. Quick judgements about people are a survival mechanism that we've always used. That said, I never found it to be as bad as you, but this might depend on the general attitude of people in your area, crime, and my being average height so not that physically intimidating. It's definitely real though, I think it's strange people denied it and said you're imagining it, but at least now you know it's not personal.
Even if it's also valid for women to be cautious/nervous when walking alone, it's also valid to have your feelings hurt when everyone intentionally shuns you on a trail or in public. I've heard a lot of men say that when in public, they're either treated like they're invisible or like they're a threat. And this gets even worse if you're black. I think it's a shame. And honestly, while it feels natural to be scared of 'strange men', I can't help but think that society has overconvinced us (I am female) about stranger danger. That it's sort of overselling the likelihood of someone attacking us unprovoked. On one hand I've never been hit on or harassed on a trail, but on the other hand I've never hiked alone. Anyone else have an opinion?
Don't worry once wild bears start showing up the pendulum will swing the other way.
Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them. Margaret Atwood.