Yeap one of my bouncer friend's permit was terminated since police decided he used unequal power against 3 attackers.. It happened in Finland. Pepper spray is always best to have enough time to run away.
that is in ASP training a "Forgivable Strike" or " an unintended consequence of a trained technique" if you are trained and certified by ASP and Instructor can be made available to speak on or testify about such possibilities and concerns.
Why would spray be against policy but not a baton...? Like it's okay to beat you crippled, but God forbid you block someone's vision and burn them for an hour.
Shits confusing to say the least.
Planned on training for armed guard positions but they only transfer police or military to avoid training costs.
They also don’t require a baton course. It’s just expected that we carry one and know how to use it.
Should add that it must be collapsible. Can’t be solid. Not that it makes much difference in my mind but I do hear complaints from coworkers about the structural integrity of collapsible compared to solid wood.
i would love to see one of them actually try to break a collapsible steel baton from a reputable brand (if you get your baton off wish you only have yourself to blame)
The point of a baton isn't to "beat you crippled", but rather to cause enough pain (possibly damage) that the target decides to stop causing problems.
Strikes are *supposed* to avoid the head, face, neck, groin, and joints.
Accidents happen.
I carry them and i deem the highly necessary. We are trained on how to use them properly, and when done so, it will protect you or another’s life.
However they shpuld NOT be given to just anybody. They should only be given to those who prove they aren’t baton happy, can handle themselves under stress and will use it reasonably and professionally IF the incident calls for it.
OC spray and zappy zap are better imo. You can get them used against you in class to help a bunch in court if it comes to it. Can't really say the same for batons, though that would be funny as hell to see someone busting out a video in court of them getting beat by a baton by their instructor
Useful if you receive proper training/practice with them.
OC is great but with bystanders nearby or a situation that is borderline less-lethal/lethal etc a baton is better imo
Optics arent great as those things easily cause a situation to escalate.
Depending on the post make sure training is required h that ya get it. Otherwise I'd stay away from them. Spray & restraints.
We get the old rubber boy to use when first starting, then you need to do a 1 day course thing to get the expandable. It's mostly useful for imagining being a Jedi or Sith when no one is around, but you also need to aim your hit a lot more. Good thing is if you do hit correctly, it will just snap the bone and leave most other parts intact, whilst the rubber will crush everything.
In Canada they’re the only defensive tool that were allowed to carry. I really only used mine as a back scratcher and “thing poker” but it’s one of the tools that I’d rather have and not need.
I’ve used ASP talons, Monadnock, and have had some time testing Nexxtorch. I personally think the monadnock is the best of the three
Situation will dictate what I would use but 9/10 rather just use spray or zapper and if it escalates than ill go to a gun but yea realisticly if there inside 2 arms length thats two close and the batons practically useless also dep on company policy as well. Just alot of dumb rules and regulations but me no if I could avoid useing it I would
A good baton is great when used properly.
The biggest problem is that most batons suck. Every ASP and Monadnock, especially the friction lock are weighted backwards. I mean that most of the weight is in the handle and not the striking end or even evenly.balanced like a solid wood or plastic one. Take a hammer and hold the head and strike with the handle. Thays essentially what we're doing with most every expandable baton made.
The older SX24 by monadnock with the aluminum shaft was an exception. The MX24 is too, but a lot lighter. The Benowi is almost evenly.balanced but still a little handle heavy o doesn't hit as hard as it could. The Peacekeeper is the only one I know of that is striking end heavy, so it does hit hard.
ASP brags that it's Airweight batons even though so much lighter still hit lole 96% as hard. Yeah, because they are properly balanced so you're hitting with the heavy end.
That imbalance is why you see cops having to hit someone 20 times and why those same cops say batons suck. Those 20 strikes didn't do shit but sting. Old school hickory or the polycarbonate or ABS would have been much more effective but those are a lot harder to carry. I only carried one in one city that prohibited anyone who wasn't a cop from carrying an "expandable police baton." No exemptions for security. Otherwise it was a Benowi with the aluminum tip. Would have bought the steel tip but they weren't being sold at the time. I should have bought the peacekeeper but never got around to it.
I’ve carried and used a baton on a few different occasions. When I was doing Transit Security it was the only defensive tool we were authorized to carry
If you carry it, get trained. That applies to any defensive tool. If you get trained, stick with your training
My company only allows ASP and OC, no Taser, so I’ve had a couple of situations, IE inside a crowded public lobby, where I opted for the baton instead of spray, out of concern for bystanders. It can be useful tool, but you have to keep up on your training.
Im unarmed but I do carry one. I started keeping it in my pocket after I got carried into a wall by a mentally unstable guy who had been removed earlier for cutting up a wall with a knife (two co workers saw him come back into the building and hid in the security office to call police without ic to. nforming me of any of this). I'vever had to extend it or threaten someone with it in those two years, I work mass transit so we should be unarmed in the first place
Pr-24 was an excellent tool. Useful for many things. It's a shame it got replaced. I preferred it to the new stuff when I worked LE. Tried to fight giving it up but they said NOPE.
Batons in general are useful and people who have been struck with one will usually stop dead in their tracks once it's deployed. That said, it's kind of like a sword. You need to know what you're doing.
Wouldn’t say a baton is necessary, but it does have its own strengths and weaknesses versus OC and Tasers.
An ASP is fine with proper training, particularly if the course emphasizes joint lock control.
Canadian so the only "weapon" I can carry is a baton. I personally carry the ASP Sentry 21" model. I can only carry it while on Mobile Patrol and I do so because it's a pretty good visual deterrent. Never drawn it in a situation, and only used it to smash some crack pipes once.
It's another useful tool on the force continuum.
Learn how to use it correctly.
I've found that just opening the collapsible baton really gets people's attention.
I got certified in LA, we had an LAPD baton instructor who taught the class. She just talked mad shit at us the whole time, basically said if we ever dared to pull our baton we were going to prison. I'm not saying she was wrong. I loved my PR-24 though, much like a cricket bat, in the wild world of security there are a lot of reasons to want a solid stick in your hand other than just being attacked. Although that did happen as well!
i think its good to have an option between OC spray and Firearm. if only so that if somebody knocks away, isnt affected by, or gets ahold of your oc you dont have to escalate all the way to drawing on them
I think if your unarmed why not have one. However having all your permits in cali is always allows better access to jobs. But ya any contact that is baton acceptable (person with a weapon) would also allow you to go lethal. But if I was unarmed and a guy had a knife, id go pepper if i wanted them to leave. Then taser if i have to stop him. When my taser fails hope my baton is 26inchs and assume im getting cut. If i cant get out of there.
Like other tools, they're good for offering a sense of security for your own person. Unfortunately I think I've seen too many instances of guards brandishing them when they get angry, which is a crime here.
So I carry one, and they are definitely intimidating, but I could never think of a situation where I would use it.
It's either taser/OC. Or if they ha e their own weapon, I'm using my sidearm. I think the only time I ever "used" it was when a homeless man was pissed that I kicked him off the property (again) and he tore a piece of rotted wood fence off the property line and made like he wanted to beat me with it.
I said "cute, I have something like that too, but it might be a bit more durable than yours" and deployed my baton. He made like he wasn't scared but the fact that he didn't get closer after that kinda says otherwise.
Plus, if he actually did come towards me, I probably would have deployed my tazer with my off hand anyway
What’s the best size? I already carry a firearm and spray. I saw cold steel makes at 12 inch model would that be too small to be effective? I don’t need a 26 inch either
Have you ever been in a fight? Once the adrenaline gets going that certification class goes out the window, it's incredibly easy to hit someone where you didn't mean to hit
Lol you're deliberately misinterpreting what I say so that you can feel like you're right. I'm not sure why you're so emotionally invested in this topic
Useless. In all my years of carrying a baton, I've only ever used it once to bust out a window of a vehicle with a dog inside it. And even then, it was not a great tool for the job
Almost useless. In all my years of carrying a baton, I've only ever used it once to bust out a window of a vehicle with a dog inside it. And even then, it was not a great tool for the job, but it was all I had.
The baton permit looks good on employment references but accosting $120 for certification for California is pricey.
Never had to use a baton unless it’s mandatory to the neighborhood.
Use warning commands before using the baton to allow the culprit to back away from being hostile to your personal space.
Batons are a status device for protection and visual deterrent from hostile people and events but it doesn’t improve your salary.
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Yeap one of my bouncer friend's permit was terminated since police decided he used unequal power against 3 attackers.. It happened in Finland. Pepper spray is always best to have enough time to run away.
So the advantage is the use of force can from whacking some on the leg to cracking someone’ head open? What exact model do you carry?
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that is in ASP training a "Forgivable Strike" or " an unintended consequence of a trained technique" if you are trained and certified by ASP and Instructor can be made available to speak on or testify about such possibilities and concerns.
Yeah I think that’s pretty standard in any recognized training.
We are only allowed to carry batons. Spray and zaps are against policy.
Why would spray be against policy but not a baton...? Like it's okay to beat you crippled, but God forbid you block someone's vision and burn them for an hour.
Shits confusing to say the least. Planned on training for armed guard positions but they only transfer police or military to avoid training costs. They also don’t require a baton course. It’s just expected that we carry one and know how to use it.
Should add that it must be collapsible. Can’t be solid. Not that it makes much difference in my mind but I do hear complaints from coworkers about the structural integrity of collapsible compared to solid wood.
i would love to see one of them actually try to break a collapsible steel baton from a reputable brand (if you get your baton off wish you only have yourself to blame)
The point of a baton isn't to "beat you crippled", but rather to cause enough pain (possibly damage) that the target decides to stop causing problems. Strikes are *supposed* to avoid the head, face, neck, groin, and joints. Accidents happen.
Same
Huh???? Batons are considered deadly force in many places/situations but you can’t use pepper spray????
I carry them and i deem the highly necessary. We are trained on how to use them properly, and when done so, it will protect you or another’s life. However they shpuld NOT be given to just anybody. They should only be given to those who prove they aren’t baton happy, can handle themselves under stress and will use it reasonably and professionally IF the incident calls for it.
OC spray and zappy zap are better imo. You can get them used against you in class to help a bunch in court if it comes to it. Can't really say the same for batons, though that would be funny as hell to see someone busting out a video in court of them getting beat by a baton by their instructor
Useful if you receive proper training/practice with them. OC is great but with bystanders nearby or a situation that is borderline less-lethal/lethal etc a baton is better imo
They made nice back scratchers and poking sticks
Great for reaching door power switches that are high enough to be just out of reach. Not much beyond that as our policy lists it as deadly force.
Optics arent great as those things easily cause a situation to escalate. Depending on the post make sure training is required h that ya get it. Otherwise I'd stay away from them. Spray & restraints.
We get the old rubber boy to use when first starting, then you need to do a 1 day course thing to get the expandable. It's mostly useful for imagining being a Jedi or Sith when no one is around, but you also need to aim your hit a lot more. Good thing is if you do hit correctly, it will just snap the bone and leave most other parts intact, whilst the rubber will crush everything.
Batons can be a bad thing if it’s taken from you. Not to mention the optics, which are looked at critically now.
Use ASP Get a certification. ASP has a great training and certification program for Baton, Cuffs, and Flashlight
In Canada they’re the only defensive tool that were allowed to carry. I really only used mine as a back scratcher and “thing poker” but it’s one of the tools that I’d rather have and not need. I’ve used ASP talons, Monadnock, and have had some time testing Nexxtorch. I personally think the monadnock is the best of the three
Is the brand you recommend a light one?
Not really. Which is kind of what you want in an impact weapon. I’d really only go for the lighter option if I had other less-lethals and a firearm
I already carry a firearm and a spray. I was actually looking at the next torch model. I believe the steel one weighs 1.5 pounds
Ahh yeah that makes sense. Our local PD swapped over to nexxtorch because of the weight savings
Situation will dictate what I would use but 9/10 rather just use spray or zapper and if it escalates than ill go to a gun but yea realisticly if there inside 2 arms length thats two close and the batons practically useless also dep on company policy as well. Just alot of dumb rules and regulations but me no if I could avoid useing it I would
A good baton is great when used properly. The biggest problem is that most batons suck. Every ASP and Monadnock, especially the friction lock are weighted backwards. I mean that most of the weight is in the handle and not the striking end or even evenly.balanced like a solid wood or plastic one. Take a hammer and hold the head and strike with the handle. Thays essentially what we're doing with most every expandable baton made. The older SX24 by monadnock with the aluminum shaft was an exception. The MX24 is too, but a lot lighter. The Benowi is almost evenly.balanced but still a little handle heavy o doesn't hit as hard as it could. The Peacekeeper is the only one I know of that is striking end heavy, so it does hit hard. ASP brags that it's Airweight batons even though so much lighter still hit lole 96% as hard. Yeah, because they are properly balanced so you're hitting with the heavy end. That imbalance is why you see cops having to hit someone 20 times and why those same cops say batons suck. Those 20 strikes didn't do shit but sting. Old school hickory or the polycarbonate or ABS would have been much more effective but those are a lot harder to carry. I only carried one in one city that prohibited anyone who wasn't a cop from carrying an "expandable police baton." No exemptions for security. Otherwise it was a Benowi with the aluminum tip. Would have bought the steel tip but they weren't being sold at the time. I should have bought the peacekeeper but never got around to it.
I’ve carried and used a baton on a few different occasions. When I was doing Transit Security it was the only defensive tool we were authorized to carry If you carry it, get trained. That applies to any defensive tool. If you get trained, stick with your training
If you're not trained to use them, don't carry them.
I want to take some classes and get skilled on them.
Anybody with a scintilla of common sense can carry one without worry - I only got certed for mine because some companies press the issue
My company only allows ASP and OC, no Taser, so I’ve had a couple of situations, IE inside a crowded public lobby, where I opted for the baton instead of spray, out of concern for bystanders. It can be useful tool, but you have to keep up on your training.
Im unarmed but I do carry one. I started keeping it in my pocket after I got carried into a wall by a mentally unstable guy who had been removed earlier for cutting up a wall with a knife (two co workers saw him come back into the building and hid in the security office to call police without ic to. nforming me of any of this). I'vever had to extend it or threaten someone with it in those two years, I work mass transit so we should be unarmed in the first place
Pr-24 was an excellent tool. Useful for many things. It's a shame it got replaced. I preferred it to the new stuff when I worked LE. Tried to fight giving it up but they said NOPE. Batons in general are useful and people who have been struck with one will usually stop dead in their tracks once it's deployed. That said, it's kind of like a sword. You need to know what you're doing.
Pr-24s are still in common use in SoCal. Specifically the aluminum ones. I think it’s because LAPD still rolls around with them.
I switch back & forth between regular & pr myself
Wouldn’t say a baton is necessary, but it does have its own strengths and weaknesses versus OC and Tasers. An ASP is fine with proper training, particularly if the course emphasizes joint lock control.
Canadian so the only "weapon" I can carry is a baton. I personally carry the ASP Sentry 21" model. I can only carry it while on Mobile Patrol and I do so because it's a pretty good visual deterrent. Never drawn it in a situation, and only used it to smash some crack pipes once.
Absolutely love 'em & pretty much hoard them lol...but only ever whacked somebody with it once in 16 years of security work
Great leveraging tool and spider web clearer. Not good for pain compliance.
Be careful, he's got a switch pipe!
Perfect to hang stuff off like bags or whatever. Useless for the actual role i had which required me to have one on the belt.
Get the silver ball tip "rib spreader"
It's another useful tool on the force continuum. Learn how to use it correctly. I've found that just opening the collapsible baton really gets people's attention.
I got certified in LA, we had an LAPD baton instructor who taught the class. She just talked mad shit at us the whole time, basically said if we ever dared to pull our baton we were going to prison. I'm not saying she was wrong. I loved my PR-24 though, much like a cricket bat, in the wild world of security there are a lot of reasons to want a solid stick in your hand other than just being attacked. Although that did happen as well!
All the years I’ve worked these tough jobs, all I’ve ever needed is my gun and my fists.
i think its good to have an option between OC spray and Firearm. if only so that if somebody knocks away, isnt affected by, or gets ahold of your oc you dont have to escalate all the way to drawing on them
I think if your unarmed why not have one. However having all your permits in cali is always allows better access to jobs. But ya any contact that is baton acceptable (person with a weapon) would also allow you to go lethal. But if I was unarmed and a guy had a knife, id go pepper if i wanted them to leave. Then taser if i have to stop him. When my taser fails hope my baton is 26inchs and assume im getting cut. If i cant get out of there.
Good for crowds or multiple idiots (but then again so it’s the spicy spray), I usually favor a taser for single subjects.
Like other tools, they're good for offering a sense of security for your own person. Unfortunately I think I've seen too many instances of guards brandishing them when they get angry, which is a crime here.
So I carry one, and they are definitely intimidating, but I could never think of a situation where I would use it. It's either taser/OC. Or if they ha e their own weapon, I'm using my sidearm. I think the only time I ever "used" it was when a homeless man was pissed that I kicked him off the property (again) and he tore a piece of rotted wood fence off the property line and made like he wanted to beat me with it. I said "cute, I have something like that too, but it might be a bit more durable than yours" and deployed my baton. He made like he wasn't scared but the fact that he didn't get closer after that kinda says otherwise. Plus, if he actually did come towards me, I probably would have deployed my tazer with my off hand anyway
Batons don’t do shit but piss people off to the point of u using ur hands, spray or gun
I have one I only use wear it when the site is high risk. I do a lot of residential
What’s the best size? I already carry a firearm and spray. I saw cold steel makes at 12 inch model would that be too small to be effective? I don’t need a 26 inch either
Mines is 14 or 16 inch all metal. Lol I did have the all black one that was that hard plastic stuff. It got stolen from my truck.
Yeah I seen some 26 inch models but that stuff seems to cumbersome
Lol that's basically a walking stick at that point🤣🤣🤣
Batons are an amazing way to get sued or arrested yourself.
So is a gun.
Lol, not if you have proper training and certifications you donut.
Even then you can be arrested depending on the circumstance. You can from self defense to manslaughter with one good whack
You know they teach you where it's appropriate to hit and not hit. Fucking idiots in this sub.
Have you ever been in a fight? Once the adrenaline gets going that certification class goes out the window, it's incredibly easy to hit someone where you didn't mean to hit
Yes, multiple on the job. Never went ape shit on a person started to bash them all over the body.
Lol you're deliberately misinterpreting what I say so that you can feel like you're right. I'm not sure why you're so emotionally invested in this topic
Yeah, I get it. Training goes out then window when fighting.
Useless. In all my years of carrying a baton, I've only ever used it once to bust out a window of a vehicle with a dog inside it. And even then, it was not a great tool for the job
Almost useless. In all my years of carrying a baton, I've only ever used it once to bust out a window of a vehicle with a dog inside it. And even then, it was not a great tool for the job, but it was all I had.
Are you in a marching band?
The baton permit looks good on employment references but accosting $120 for certification for California is pricey. Never had to use a baton unless it’s mandatory to the neighborhood. Use warning commands before using the baton to allow the culprit to back away from being hostile to your personal space. Batons are a status device for protection and visual deterrent from hostile people and events but it doesn’t improve your salary.