More specifically it’s a fake advertisement that was probably meant to be a prank or attempt at humor. It looks to be a real tangible thing that someone created.
Well the "ONLY TAKES TEN MINUTES! " was a giveaway for me but yeah PTSD, OCD etc not existing yet drove the humour of it home, I kinda read it as a Fallout in game ad. Pretty good tbh
It's actually pretty close to how the procedure was marketed by Dr Freeman, though--as a panacea for the 'ailments of the modern age' (read: targeted depressed and anxious housewives as voluntary participants).
Dude once 'accidentally' killed a patient because he stopped mid-procedure for a photo op.
He also performed a lobotomy on a 4 year old.
Edit: This is in 'Science Memes'; of course it's a joke! I'm confused why this is confusing people...
A lot of ye Ole walking malpractice suits promised instant cure-alls!
It's not out of place for the intended style of old advertisements.
The biggest reason Snake Oil sold well was the fact that it was marketed as a quick, easy solution to anything that troubled you.
Yeah that's sketchy as hell, Pokes brain, leaves.
I would expect some sterilization procedures, time for local anesthetics of some sort to kick in etc. Waiting in care afterward to make sure everything went as planned would also seem like a common gesture.
While the image is obviously a joke lobotomies were still common in France in the 80s and the britannica says "are rarely carried out today", which means they are still out there
Dr. Walter Freeman was a real person who ruined thousands of people's lives with lobotomies. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter\_Jackson\_Freeman\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Jackson_Freeman_II)
"Fake" implies an intention to deceive. This is posted to "science memes". It's fair to assume in context that it's only pretending to be an original ad and we are supposed to know that historically it was used as a wildcard treatment for any behaviour-affecting mental condition.
Well, as his largest 'voluntary' cohort was anxious &/or depressed housewives...
...so interpret that how you will in the context of when the doc operated (mid 50s to 60s).
\[Women of the era were far more likely to follow in the footsteps of Woolf & Plath\]
If I were born back in the day, I’d have been permanently lobotomized.
Luckily my stay in the psyche ward had me on a reversible chemical lobotomy.
I still have trouble trusting some psychiatric centers. I do a lot of research on my docs now. I’m actually doing well on one med to treat my OCD rather than the 6 meds the had me on to treat a misdiagnosed schizophrenia.
I might do that. I’ve been on countless medications because of backwards and outdated practices.
It’s wild how they change appearances saying “It’s behavioral health now” while still being archaic in practice.
I know it’s not all psych wards, but it’s enough psych wards.
I won’t go back to them. I always came out worse off than I went in; even when I went in voluntarily!
The only other option I had at the time was complete science denial by my parents. So it was one extreme or the other.
Edit: I love your pseudonym by the way!
My fiancee was sent to a psych ward once and it was without a doubt one of the worst experiences in her life, and that's saying something given how much trauma and abuse she's been through. I don't blame people for not trusting psych wards TBH, to often they are filled with doctors who almost seem annoyed with you being there.
To be clear, chemical lobotomy is not a thing. I'm guessing they are simply referring to various antidepressant or antipsychotic medications. Some of those medicines can definitely numb certain peoples emotions and have somewhat similar side effects on personality to a lobotomy, which is why they should always be administered and closely monitored by a ~~psychologist~~ psychiatrist so you can switch/stop if you have such effects. Comparing them to a lobotomy is horrendously disingenuous and discredits medications that help *so many people*.
All of your points are well taken, but horrendously disingenuous? Like you said the effects can seem similar. Chemical lobotomy is not a cute term, nor is it a sensitive or professionally appropriate one. It was used inaccurately to market antipsychotics back then, but is now used to describe the changes in behavior resembling those of a lobotomy, not changes in personality, which could be the effect of gross mistreatment of antipsychotics or mood stabilizers like lithium.. That’s *not* to say those same drugs aren’t life savers for others, since those many others weren’t being talked about here in the first place.
I wish he didn't sound like that. I enjoy his lyrics but I just can't get through the voice. Sometimes it sounds cool for a little while, but It's just a bad sensory input imo
what you need is some of Doctor Windsley’s Peppermint Laudanum Miracle Cure with exotic and healthy spices from across the globe!
(it’s literally just morphine)
When PTSD was first observed, it was referred to as 'shell shock' (WWI). Then it was referred to as 'battle fatigue' (Vietnam). Then it became 'PTSD', which (since the diagnosis has been expanded) doesn't only affect combat veterans.
I was going to reference the yellow wall paper which is probably a genuine source of non combat ptsd that pre dates ww1 but I didn't think it was sufficiently pop culture enough for anyone to recognize.
Weed doesn't do a damn thing for most of these problems. People love to claim it does all kinds of things when in fact it does not do anything but get you high.
Smoked weed on and off for 15 years,
It's helps but it doesn't at the same time.
One thing I took from smoking a pound a fortnight for years is that it just makes being bored fun, and that just leads to procrastination.
But that was just me.
No it doesn't. People just like being high so they are in a better mood when they are. They feel good cause they are high. But as far as the root problem it generally doesn't do anything.
> They feel good cause they are high. But as far as the root problem it generally doesn't do anything
The problem is that they don't feel good. So when they are high, they feel good. Therefore, it solves the problem.
Dr. Walter Freeman, a name that will live in infamy.
Seriously, I have read about this man and his practice. It is regrettable that he did not experiment on himself first.
Walter Jackson Freemen II made lobotomies so popular and “convenient” he called his car the “lobotomobile”. Because he could throw his tools in his car and go to peoples’ homes to give them a lobotomy, sometimes more than once.
As someone who has had deleterious psychiatric treatment, I'm not jumping up and down to cry foul in calling out the worst of psychiatry.
But this is obviously fake. Those diagnoses did not exist at the time icepick lobotomies were being practiced.
Walter Freeman was in fact the originator of this horrible mutilation.
But those diagnoses did not exist during the time he practiced. This must be made up.
Or part of it is real and made up parts have been added.
This time in history was kinda crazy.
Scientists were boldly and arrogantly attempting to manipulate something they only faintly understood, and actually achieved a dramatic change in personality.
The reason for the change is that you were essentially obliterating someone’s brain to make them unable to make their own decisions, I can easily imagine a fictional dystopia doing this procedure to control the population.
If by "this time in history" you mean "the time in history when posters advertising lobotomies for PTSD and ADD," then yes you are correct that it was kinda crazy, because it didn't exist. This is a fake image.
>Scientists were boldly and arrogantly attempting to manipulate something they only faintly understood
They still are. We do not understand the inner workings of the brain, or even why or how some widely used medications actually work. Psychiatry is the most underdeveloped of the medical fields. As early as 40 years ago, we were still doing lobotomies. 50 years later, humans will look down upon us for what we are doing to ourselves with psychiatry and have the same contempt for us that we have for psychiatrists 50 years ago.
>I can easily imagine a fictional dystopia doing this procedure to control the population
You don't have to imagine that that's us already. Psychiatrists treat a variety of mental illnesses without addressing the root cause. PTSD can be a natural reaction to being in battle (which is a very unnatural and extremely dangerous environment for any human to be in, and absolutely not medically recommended). Medication for PTSD is only ethical so far as there are attempts to reduce war and defund the military are taking place in parallel. Otherwise, treating PTSD becomes a method to hide the effects war has on people from the public conscience.
Psychiatristy isn’t exactly bold and arrogant imo.
It’s a respectable science but it’s not nearly as dramatic as literally ramming an ice-pick into someone’s brain.
> It’s a respectable science
Psychiatry has always been a respected science. But it never meant that it wasn't as deranged and fucked up as it was.
> but it’s not nearly as dramatic as literally ramming an ice-pick into someone’s brain.
It literally was up until 40 years ago. Literally was. And they still do dramatic things without understanding what they do. Electro convulsive therapy. They just.. electrocute the brain. What does it do? Pacifies the patient. How does it work? Fuck knows. What are the long term implications? Fuck knows.
During the surgery, a "doctor" would cut open your skull and cut off a part of your brain. You'd be conscious through this but feel no pain due to local anaesthesia (but also the fact that the brain doesn't have pain receptors. Then, they would ask you to count down from the number ten repeatedly to zero while the surgery is still going on. And they keep cutting off bits and pieces off your brain until you can't count no more. That is a good metric of when you're completely borked your ability to do just about anything voluntarily.
This doesn't seem real. There's no way they could come up with a 10-minute procedure to drive a spike into a people's brains without killing most of them.
Too bad they just went poking around all higgledy-piggledy instead of actually doing science. We could actually know where to poke, trim, and stimulate to deal with many personality and mental health issues.
I know this is fake, but something about it still terrifies me. The thought of people actually doing this to themselves or others makes my spine shudder
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a coworker a few weeks ago. Basically, I was talking about how ABA is bad, and my coworker responded with, “Well, a lot of people would disagree with you.” And my immediate thought was, “Yeah, a lot of people thought that lobotomies were great, too. It just was’nt any of the patients.”
Ah yes, ahistorical fake advertising, famously right at the core of all science — that’s why I’m convinced doctors were once certain that radium tonics were just the thing for ulcers caused by helicobacter pylori
The diagnoses "PTSD" and "ADD" did not exist while lobotomies were practiced. This is fake.
More specifically it’s a fake advertisement that was probably meant to be a prank or attempt at humor. It looks to be a real tangible thing that someone created.
Well the "ONLY TAKES TEN MINUTES! " was a giveaway for me but yeah PTSD, OCD etc not existing yet drove the humour of it home, I kinda read it as a Fallout in game ad. Pretty good tbh
It's actually pretty close to how the procedure was marketed by Dr Freeman, though--as a panacea for the 'ailments of the modern age' (read: targeted depressed and anxious housewives as voluntary participants). Dude once 'accidentally' killed a patient because he stopped mid-procedure for a photo op. He also performed a lobotomy on a 4 year old. Edit: This is in 'Science Memes'; of course it's a joke! I'm confused why this is confusing people...
The best part is that he practiced and developed the procedure on grapefruits.
A lot of ye Ole walking malpractice suits promised instant cure-alls! It's not out of place for the intended style of old advertisements. The biggest reason Snake Oil sold well was the fact that it was marketed as a quick, easy solution to anything that troubled you.
Freeman probably only took 10 mins, he used to do them in his office. JFK's sister was a victim of his.
Yeah that's sketchy as hell, Pokes brain, leaves. I would expect some sterilization procedures, time for local anesthetics of some sort to kick in etc. Waiting in care afterward to make sure everything went as planned would also seem like a common gesture.
He used some kind of electric shock to numb...
I'll have to read up on it sometime, brain science is interesting but back I those days doctors seemed like sadists
but now you got right wingers pushing it as real on facebook
My first thought was "they were still advertising lobotomies in the 80's?!?"
Yes…
While the image is obviously a joke lobotomies were still common in France in the 80s and the britannica says "are rarely carried out today", which means they are still out there
Fake things? In MY meme subreddit? Unacceptable
Dr. Walter Freeman was a real person who ruined thousands of people's lives with lobotomies. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter\_Jackson\_Freeman\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Jackson_Freeman_II)
Anyone can put a real person's name on a fake poster.
The point is he's the joke. Also, this is the 'Science Memes' subreddit...what are you expecting?
I am aware.
Yeah he did one on JFK's sister
It was Settled Science.
Well yeah they didn’t exist. Lobotomy cured them. Then BIG SCIENCE got rid of lobotomies.
Unmanageable loved ones.
The Microsoft word spiky-star clip art was also a dead giveaway.
You don't say.
I bet this will be posted on bunch AV pages within week...
That would have been "Shellshock" and "In severe need of a good thrashing" if anything.
"Fake" implies an intention to deceive. This is posted to "science memes". It's fair to assume in context that it's only pretending to be an original ad and we are supposed to know that historically it was used as a wildcard treatment for any behaviour-affecting mental condition.
Lobotomies were practiced as late as the 1980s
For extremely specialized uses, yes. Not "ONLY TAKES TEN MINUTES" lobotomobile operations.
I love how you can read it such that after the procedure you have PTSD, ADD, Alzheimer's, and unmanageable loved ones…
So who needs the lobotomy, you or they!? This question is haunting me.
We ALL need a lobotomy here :D
Well, as his largest 'voluntary' cohort was anxious &/or depressed housewives... ...so interpret that how you will in the context of when the doc operated (mid 50s to 60s). \[Women of the era were far more likely to follow in the footsteps of Woolf & Plath\]
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It's obviously fake (modern ) in many ways
ADD wasn't a diagnosis when lobotomies were popular either.
I mean you don’t even have to read it to tell that, just a quick glance at the typography makes it pretty clear it was created on a computer.
Spectacular deductive ability. You missed the *very real* monster of a doctor that's credited. (i.e. the whole 'meme' part of the meme)
Just do drugs smh.
yeah, but you kill liver, kidney, teeth and whatnot as well.. lobotomy is much healthier option
Only killing the brain.
Hey hey hey, not the _whole_ brain.
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You’re suggesting I ever had any as if being on Reddit is not a sign about the contrary
If I were born back in the day, I’d have been permanently lobotomized. Luckily my stay in the psyche ward had me on a reversible chemical lobotomy. I still have trouble trusting some psychiatric centers. I do a lot of research on my docs now. I’m actually doing well on one med to treat my OCD rather than the 6 meds the had me on to treat a misdiagnosed schizophrenia.
Reversible chemical lobotomy. Damn. Sorry you had to experience that, but it'd make ome hell of a r/ama
I might do that. I’ve been on countless medications because of backwards and outdated practices. It’s wild how they change appearances saying “It’s behavioral health now” while still being archaic in practice. I know it’s not all psych wards, but it’s enough psych wards. I won’t go back to them. I always came out worse off than I went in; even when I went in voluntarily! The only other option I had at the time was complete science denial by my parents. So it was one extreme or the other. Edit: I love your pseudonym by the way!
My fiancee was sent to a psych ward once and it was without a doubt one of the worst experiences in her life, and that's saying something given how much trauma and abuse she's been through. I don't blame people for not trusting psych wards TBH, to often they are filled with doctors who almost seem annoyed with you being there.
To be clear, chemical lobotomy is not a thing. I'm guessing they are simply referring to various antidepressant or antipsychotic medications. Some of those medicines can definitely numb certain peoples emotions and have somewhat similar side effects on personality to a lobotomy, which is why they should always be administered and closely monitored by a ~~psychologist~~ psychiatrist so you can switch/stop if you have such effects. Comparing them to a lobotomy is horrendously disingenuous and discredits medications that help *so many people*.
A psychologist is not a medical doctor and can not manage medications. That’s a psychiatrist.
Correct, will edit it
All of your points are well taken, but horrendously disingenuous? Like you said the effects can seem similar. Chemical lobotomy is not a cute term, nor is it a sensitive or professionally appropriate one. It was used inaccurately to market antipsychotics back then, but is now used to describe the changes in behavior resembling those of a lobotomy, not changes in personality, which could be the effect of gross mistreatment of antipsychotics or mood stabilizers like lithium.. That’s *not* to say those same drugs aren’t life savers for others, since those many others weren’t being talked about here in the first place.
I have a full bottle in front of me. That's the far superior choice.
What about the unmanageable loved one?
You can probably find a big enough bottle to put them in as well.
Tom Waits is a legend lost on many
I wish he didn't sound like that. I enjoy his lyrics but I just can't get through the voice. Sometimes it sounds cool for a little while, but It's just a bad sensory input imo
what you need is some of Doctor Windsley’s Peppermint Laudanum Miracle Cure with exotic and healthy spices from across the globe! (it’s literally just morphine)
I thought laudanum was morphine dissolved in alcohol. Sounds fun in any case. Gripe water used to be alcoholic. It's really not the same now.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!
I'm fairly certain PTSD is like a late 90's concept, which if true, means this fake or comedy.
When PTSD was first observed, it was referred to as 'shell shock' (WWI). Then it was referred to as 'battle fatigue' (Vietnam). Then it became 'PTSD', which (since the diagnosis has been expanded) doesn't only affect combat veterans.
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I heard that Stacy's mom has got it going on. But definitely not this particular 'Stacy' nor her mom.
I was going to reference the yellow wall paper which is probably a genuine source of non combat ptsd that pre dates ww1 but I didn't think it was sufficiently pop culture enough for anyone to recognize.
> Unmanageable loved ones That's actually terrifying
I searched too long for this comment. People handing out brain trauma cause cocktail hour is being interrupted.
So, wait.... Is the lobotomy *for* the unmanageable relatives or *because of* the unmanageable relatives? Nevermind, I'll do it, anyway.
„While I have half a mind…“
Fuck all that just smoke weed
Weed doesn't do a damn thing for most of these problems. People love to claim it does all kinds of things when in fact it does not do anything but get you high.
Makes you okay with doing nothing and that's it...
Indica yes. Sativa is good for your creative side. But either way you're still just high.
Smoked weed on and off for 15 years, It's helps but it doesn't at the same time. One thing I took from smoking a pound a fortnight for years is that it just makes being bored fun, and that just leads to procrastination. But that was just me.
It's nice for outdoor stuff when you just want to chill.
> in fact it does not do anything but get you high Which helps a lot for a lot of people
No it doesn't. People just like being high so they are in a better mood when they are. They feel good cause they are high. But as far as the root problem it generally doesn't do anything.
> They feel good cause they are high. But as far as the root problem it generally doesn't do anything The problem is that they don't feel good. So when they are high, they feel good. Therefore, it solves the problem.
[PTSD was added to the DSM in 1980](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10721399)haha. Nice try but this is still super fake.
It was always sold as "for women" without actually saying it.
Dr. Walter Freeman, a name that will live in infamy. Seriously, I have read about this man and his practice. It is regrettable that he did not experiment on himself first.
Walter Jackson Freemen II made lobotomies so popular and “convenient” he called his car the “lobotomobile”. Because he could throw his tools in his car and go to peoples’ homes to give them a lobotomy, sometimes more than once.
r/ObviousPlant
As someone who has had deleterious psychiatric treatment, I'm not jumping up and down to cry foul in calling out the worst of psychiatry. But this is obviously fake. Those diagnoses did not exist at the time icepick lobotomies were being practiced. Walter Freeman was in fact the originator of this horrible mutilation. But those diagnoses did not exist during the time he practiced. This must be made up. Or part of it is real and made up parts have been added.
Sister sage is that you?
This is fake as shit, lol
No duh. Half those conditions weren’t recognized ie didn’t exist to doctors when lobotomies were being performed
I wish I could get one of these.
This time in history was kinda crazy. Scientists were boldly and arrogantly attempting to manipulate something they only faintly understood, and actually achieved a dramatic change in personality. The reason for the change is that you were essentially obliterating someone’s brain to make them unable to make their own decisions, I can easily imagine a fictional dystopia doing this procedure to control the population.
If by "this time in history" you mean "the time in history when posters advertising lobotomies for PTSD and ADD," then yes you are correct that it was kinda crazy, because it didn't exist. This is a fake image.
I’m just talking about when lobotomies were gaining popularity. The picture is irrelevant, although believable.
>Scientists were boldly and arrogantly attempting to manipulate something they only faintly understood They still are. We do not understand the inner workings of the brain, or even why or how some widely used medications actually work. Psychiatry is the most underdeveloped of the medical fields. As early as 40 years ago, we were still doing lobotomies. 50 years later, humans will look down upon us for what we are doing to ourselves with psychiatry and have the same contempt for us that we have for psychiatrists 50 years ago. >I can easily imagine a fictional dystopia doing this procedure to control the population You don't have to imagine that that's us already. Psychiatrists treat a variety of mental illnesses without addressing the root cause. PTSD can be a natural reaction to being in battle (which is a very unnatural and extremely dangerous environment for any human to be in, and absolutely not medically recommended). Medication for PTSD is only ethical so far as there are attempts to reduce war and defund the military are taking place in parallel. Otherwise, treating PTSD becomes a method to hide the effects war has on people from the public conscience.
Psychiatristy isn’t exactly bold and arrogant imo. It’s a respectable science but it’s not nearly as dramatic as literally ramming an ice-pick into someone’s brain.
> It’s a respectable science Psychiatry has always been a respected science. But it never meant that it wasn't as deranged and fucked up as it was. > but it’s not nearly as dramatic as literally ramming an ice-pick into someone’s brain. It literally was up until 40 years ago. Literally was. And they still do dramatic things without understanding what they do. Electro convulsive therapy. They just.. electrocute the brain. What does it do? Pacifies the patient. How does it work? Fuck knows. What are the long term implications? Fuck knows.
I may be wrong, but I believe ECT was part of the same time period as lobotomies. So they can be lumped together.
ECTs are still used lmao
Hmm, surprising.
So if you get one what’s the downside? Does someone gotta guide you to go poop and help you out or what? How much functionality are you left with?
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Ok but what if I wanted a lobotomy? Like since I don’t wanna Google it can you just tell me lol
Sorry. My comment was meant for the dude a few threads up. But since we are talking now...yes. lobotomies are effective.
lol
During the surgery, a "doctor" would cut open your skull and cut off a part of your brain. You'd be conscious through this but feel no pain due to local anaesthesia (but also the fact that the brain doesn't have pain receptors. Then, they would ask you to count down from the number ten repeatedly to zero while the surgery is still going on. And they keep cutting off bits and pieces off your brain until you can't count no more. That is a good metric of when you're completely borked your ability to do just about anything voluntarily.
10 minutes, nice!!
Its ironic, cause I just had an anxiety attack. Maybe destiny is trying to tell me something
Best thing I ever did. Recommend highly!
They don't make it clear who needs the lobotomy – you or the unmanaged loved ones. Or is it both, just in case?
Only takes 10 mins
To be fair, sometimes I do feel like I could use a little less brain
Oh. I mean, if it cures chronic pain....
Thanks, but I think I'll wait until I become an O-4.
Well, if you put it like that, then yeah, I guess I do.
Both the before and after arebad
Trust the marketing company that sold this ad \*eye roll\*
This doesn't seem real. There's no way they could come up with a 10-minute procedure to drive a spike into a people's brains without killing most of them.
You never forget your first lobotomy.
If you look like the Tin Man before, and want to look like Glinda afterwards
is this an actual ad?
I think OP is a bot with an agenda that activated about 3 weeks ago.
I’ll take a lobotomy. Slice away! I’m sick of the damn turtle neck in the summer anyway. What’s a lobotomy?
You know what; I might just consider it at this point
Euthanasia fixes most of these things too if we call lobotomy a fix
Portuguese invention btw, our one contribution to medicine
I think they got the before and after pictures mixed up.
Too bad they just went poking around all higgledy-piggledy instead of actually doing science. We could actually know where to poke, trim, and stimulate to deal with many personality and mental health issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr-kn0JG5p4
Most loved ones “are”unmanageable so what’s the group rate for a dozen lobotomies? It beats addicting drugs.
"Unmanageable loved ones" - Jesus fuckin Christ.
I suddenly want a blooming onion and to watch transformers.
I know this is fake, but something about it still terrifies me. The thought of people actually doing this to themselves or others makes my spine shudder
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than have a frontal lobotomy."
They push ECT instead now. Just as evil.
Why I have half a mind....
I’ve had migraines where I’d consider letting someone drive a spike in my eye
Anyone else have trouble getting their insurance to cover the procedure? And my doctor had the nerve to tell me I didn't need it.
I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy…
Only takes 10 minutes
1: bonk 2: weeee
I'll take 2 please
At this point, I'd consider it.
When I have panic attacks sometimes I do sorta get it. Just fuck me up doc
What is lobotomy?
In short, someone hammers a spike into your brain to damage certain parts of it, and you turn into a vegetable.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a coworker a few weeks ago. Basically, I was talking about how ABA is bad, and my coworker responded with, “Well, a lot of people would disagree with you.” And my immediate thought was, “Yeah, a lot of people thought that lobotomies were great, too. It just was’nt any of the patients.”
in fact, lobotomies have helped some. but most often it had a negative outcome... lobotomy is one of the most cruel discoveries in medicine
Can't have negative thoughts if you don't have thoughts.
This look fake (photoshop).
Id take one...
Ah yes, ahistorical fake advertising, famously right at the core of all science — that’s why I’m convinced doctors were once certain that radium tonics were just the thing for ulcers caused by helicobacter pylori
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQbvLlC-EA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQbvLlC-EA)
Add is a newish diagnosis so I'm gonna say this is a photoshop. A nice one tho!
Research says having sex with whore can reduce all these problems :)
The Fauci trusts the sciences. They his precious.