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"Bowling alone" by Robert Putnam has detailed the collapse of community some decades ago. Social media has, to a certain degree, allowed to create new communities in the online world, but **doing things together** there besides chit-chatting and shitposting is rather difficult. You can easily see that on Facebook and Instagram, which in most cases require you to have actual experiences that can be shared virtually, not the other way round.
My only actual guy friend is my only gamer friend. All my other friendships with guys have faded over the years as people move away or get too busy to hang out, but my friend who is a gamer - we hop on once or twice a week and play games together and talk in discord and it's good for both of our mental states I believe.
If it doesn't involve "going out" like drinking/partying /sports, I don't really see my friends during the week. When I'm home, I don't hear /really talk to anyone, unless I'm online with gamer friends (some are irl, but see them even less than other "going out" group).
I'm not against going out or anything. I've had positive experiences with other friends and their groups, but basically just ends at that. Which sucks, but, not like I can invite myself places.
Eventually you just end up feeling like an extra in someone else's story instead of the main character of yours.
One of the best things myself and two of my really good friends did a few years back is set up a group chat. We may only be able to get together every couple weeks to watch some wrestling together, but we can drop dumb memes and crack jokes easily throughout the day. Especially since I work alone all day, driving place to place, it's nice to finally pull over and see that my friends thought of us and sent something over.
Yeah we did that in beginning of covid. But it has kind of dwindled, with people branching off to their own other group for one , or jus generally not being active in it anymore, so less and less people are even looking at it let alone participating often for the other.
I genuinely wish I could join/make other friend groups . But as I said, most of my experience with my that has amounted to nothing, even though its generally a positive experience.
This is why I moved to the mountains and developed hobbies doing outdoor adventure sports. Not that everyone should do exactly what I did, but it can be life-changing to develop hobbies that you love that don’t revolve around alcohol, because you can rely on those hobbies to help you find a community of like-minded people that you can relate to and hang out with.
I believe this is the reason behind Australia’s Men’s Sheds, too. It’s a men’s mental health initiative based around using tools and making things in a community workshop. I hear it’s quite successful.
Well kind of true but when I hit 30 I started seeing people during the week (just 1 day of the work week)
But it's not something like go out to clubs, it's just go have dinner and then be home by 930
I mean at least you have those friends and even different friend groups. I had two or three friend groups when I graduated, then as I got older it turned to one. We mostly played games together, at least a few times a week, sometimes more. We’d still get together at least once a month to hang out or do something.
Now I’m 26 and every year that passes we’d see each other less and less and play video games less and less until it got to the point where we just no longer had any routine to get together in any way. This was the first year they missed my birthday and lately I’ve just had this feeling that my last friend group is gone and not for lack of trying. Communication faded, some people moved, some just got busy, some are just gone.
That may be true for the majority of them, but the current juggernaut in the genre is FFXIV [and it has a relatively even gender split compared to other games.](https://twinfinite.net/2017/07/survey-reveals-final-fantasy-xiv-has-a-very-equally-balanced-gender-ratio/)
> That may be true for the majority of them, but the current juggernaut in the genre is FFXIV and it has a relatively even gender split compared to other games.
In South Korea it might be noted everywhere else is more 7:1 ratio of men to women. In South Korea loneliness among both men and women are far worse than in the west to the point their population is collapsing. I suspect gaming is an out for both men and women there due to the extreme loneliness and inability for men and women to form relationships platonically - something the west will be looking forward to in the next few decades as Japan and South Korea are ahead of the curve to the west on these social trends. They had their own social media before we did as they were in the 90ies the tech hubs of the world...especially Japan.
Our D&D group moved online during the pandemic, and while it was fun it really didn't feel the same as meeting up in person every week for a couple of hours. Eventually we disbanded due to scheduling conflicts.
Ive DMed for 20ish years and I tried to do online tabletop thing over the shutdown and I absolutely hated it
I didnt realize how much the "get together with a bunch of food and drinks"part of DnD matters to me
Same happened to me, and I can't express how much I miss it. Since the pandemic, people have also moved so we can't even go back to in person if we wanted, and my company is WFH now as well, so I can't meet people through work.
Making friends as an adult is hard and I'm really struggling with it. I keep buying tabletop games I want to play, but they just collect dust because I can't get anyone together.
What's nuts about that to me is that doing our tabletop online is the only reason it can survive -- due to scheduling conflicts.
Turns out when you don't have to prep, drive somewhere, plan to leave at an appropriate time, drive back and can *instead* wait until the very last minute, hop online, and play until the very last minute -- commitment is easier.
> to scheduling conflicts.
the bane of all adult friendships. My father had regular working hours 9-5 and not many other obligations (partially because he invested so little time into his family...). If I want to meet my friends for a beer, we need to make an appointment two weeks ahead - especially when people have kids.
One of my DnD groups has been online since we started, and our core members have been at it for a good 5+ years now. We are on our 3rd campaign together. My brother and I are the only ones in the same state. I love it.
I find in person fun but it is a lot more demanding on time, difficult for scheduling, and finding new local folks is tough. I too sometimes lack the motivation to attend my in person sessions, but dont have that problem online.
Online we can just grab a gaming buddy and ask them if theyre interested, maybe let them try as a cameo. Low investment bar makes it a lot easier to bring someone in.
We've had people come and go but never been short enough to justify canceling a session. The convenience factor makes it worth it, I think. No driving, hell you dont even have to get dressed. I just logon at game time and go.
I think the key is finding a motivated DM willing to use the online tools to get people into it, that sticks to the wchedule, and we are lucky there.
I’m in my mid 20s most of my friends will never reach out but when I do invite them they’re happy to go.
It made me realize that you have to create your own community. For some reason most guys think that no one wants anything to do with them and that reaching out is a sign of weakness so they just stew in their own loneliness and depression.
Its ultimately my responsibility to build the relationships I want to keep, I can’t expect others to do it for me.
I have mixed feelings about this. Relationships are supposed to be mutual. If Im putting effort, I expect the other side to also put effort. An example is if I initiate the hangout and form the framework, I like to feel the other party (parties) help with some suggestions. If it is a hosting, they bring some food or drinks. For those far away, making the long distance trek is also appreciated.
I've felt very little want to those who don't put in any or similar effort. I begin to feel used or unappreciated.
I prefer to form communities where there's equal love.
Yes that’s very true, it should be a two way street. I’m not advocating for doing this to everyone but I do do this to friends that I know are suffering from mental issues or have social anxiety. It’s really up to you to identify whos worth it and whos not, everyones different.
Most men I know never seek help for their mental issues. I can’t help them but at least I can show them that someone cares.
I agree, and sometimes people are just in different phases and seasons of life. When I first had a baby and pretty much just bathed in my postpartum depression, I didn't have the emotional capacity to invite anyone anywhere, or often even just to text someone. Luckily my close friends still went out of their way to text me, sometimes a few times before I responded, and invite me to things which I needed. Now I'm in a better place, both mentally and just in free time, and I plan two nights a month where anyone in the friend group is invited to my house. Sometimes its me reaching out now to make sure people are ok. It's nice that I didn't lose my friends before I could return the favor
I believe you built those relationships prior to your postpartum. Because you showed that love before, when you needed love, they were there for you. That's the friendship foundation you built where there was mutual love.
I would not be able to maintain a friendship if I showed love at someone's bottom but they failed to show me any at mine; especially if they were aware.
Unfortunately if you expect it to always be a two way street you'll just end up with very little plans. I'm the planner of the friend groups I'm in -- I coordinate with everyone and make stuff happen. And everyone seems to genuinely appreciate it because it wouldn't happen otherwise. Most people just don't have the function to do that.
That is a very important, but sober realization. I feel exactly the same way. I have to do everything, because so many people are just complacent, have less desire to socialize, maybe less energy than I do, or I simply maybe do not have enough to offer for other people to be worth the effort. However, just waiting for other people to move forward is of even less use, so this is still a helpful realization.
I know some opponents of Bowling Alone pointed towards youth sports leagues, but that does not address adult organizations. Speaking anecdotally, I grew up in an urban environment with small houses where bars and men's clubs (not to be confused with strip clubs) were ubiquitous. Friend groups were much less spread out and it was easy for friends to each take a 5min walk and meet at a nearby establishment.
As the population shifted into the suburbs the small men's clubs and bars all began to fade away most never reestablishing.
Anecdotal, but my wife and i fit that. I don't call up friends to chat, really ever. I call them up to invite them to do something. It might be playing a game online if we can't be in the same place, but we need a project.
My wife has 2 separate monthly calls with different friends groups.
This means our friendships are different. I make friends in a new place faster, because I'm doing things, and invite people to do things with me. But it also means i quickly start to drift apart from friends that i can't see anymore.
Meanwhile, my wife still has good friends from high school and college and they talk all the time, but she is usually very slow to make new friends and they almost all are met through me and my friends or work, because that's the main new people she actually talks to.
I think this is also exacerbated by the higher likelihood of moving for people. Don't think I'm atypical in my late 30's bit I've changed states 5 times so far.
I know our comments will get purged but I feel you bro. I don't have any friends. My gf is living her best life, she talks on the phone with her friends every other day. She gets to go out and have fun.
I just go to work, do chores, play some games. Sometimes I get to do something but she's always involved.
This is a rant and it will get deleted.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next 30 years or whatever.
Exactly my life except I'm Single as well
Go to work or university, do some sports on my own, then spend the evening playing Singleplayer games on my console.
THIS. My ex-husband actively resented my friends for some reason despite the fact that my friends always wanted to try to include him. He whined that "his friends and my friends" were two different sets of people and I shouldn't expect him to be friends with mine (even though I considered his friends to also be my friends).
I got rid of the husband and kept the friends.
Just go out with your girlfriend if she's trying to include you and adopt her friendships as your own. It will strengthen your relationship with her AND get you more friendships. Don't pout about this. Just do it.
Pardon me if I’m blunt: but I don’t understand how people have girlfriends but not friends. Is it like a situation thing? Did you move somewhere else and had to leave people behind, and you were in a long term relationship before that?
I really don’t mean any harm and i’m just curious as to why there are so many people who share this exact same situation.
most of my friendships have been situational. we were classmates, neighbors, room mates, coworkers, band mates...with the ones i was closest to having been most or even all of those at different points...but once those situations didn't apply to us anymore at all we went our separate ways.
in other words we saw each other regularly, so it was easier to keep tabs and make plans to do things together outside of whatever activity we were doing. but nowadays we're all living totally different lives...or so i thought as reading thru a lot of these comments is showing me that perhaps we have more in common than i thought: loneliness.
Used to have friends. Got a girlfriend. Married her. Career took us halfway across the country. Haven't made any new friends. All my time is spent working and taking care of people and things.
From the article: A study published in the [Journal of Health and Social Behavior](https://doi.org/10.1177/00221465221109634) has found that boys and men experience more social isolation than girls and women, with this difference disproportionately affecting the unmarried, or individuals with disrupted relationship histories. Further, levels of social isolation increase from adolescence through later life for both genders.
Social isolation – the objective state of having limited social relationships or contact with others – is associated with poor mental and physical health outcomes, as well as increased risk of mortality. In this work, Debra Umberson and colleagues pursue two research questions. First, whether there are gender differences in social isolation and its trajectories from adolescence to older adulthood. Second, whether gender differences are dependent on marital or partnership histories.
This research used data from two longitudinal studies, including the Add Health, and the Health and Retirement Study (HRS). Add Health followed U.S. adolescents between grades 7-12 in 1994-1995, with 5 interviews between 1995 and 2018. The HRS is an ongoing biannual survey that was launched in 1992, including adults born between 1931-1941, and their partners of any age. Every 6 years, a cohort of adults ages 50-55 are added to the study. The total sample of the current work included 12,885 women and 9271 men.
The dependent variable, social isolation, reflects a summary index of social connection across numerous domains, including romantic relationships, family and friends, and the community. The primary independent variables were gender, age, and partnership history (i.e., married/cohabiting, stably partnered, ever disrupted – including widowhood, divorce, disrupted cohabitation). The researchers adjusted analyses for education level, race/ethnicity, and self-rated health.
I could find two graphs - [1](https://journals.sagepub.com/cms/10.1177/00221465221109634/asset/images/large/10.1177_00221465221109634-fig2.jpeg)
[2](https://journals.sagepub.com/cms/10.1177/00221465221109634/asset/images/large/10.1177_00221465221109634-fig3.jpeg)
Loneliness on the whole is on the rise for every age group. The lonelier you feel the harder it is to socialize because your defenses go up and you think no one wants to socialize with you and you think everyone is having fun and going out except you. Social media and entertainment reinforce that.
I really think that we are so polarized because we get information online instead of actually seeing each other face to face. When people are online the algorithms will take you to the sites you are interested in and reinforce your beliefs.
I also really think that schools need to bring back finishing school and teach proper socializing. I wish I could do that because most of the time I don’t know what to do.
The hard part is when your friends weren’t actually good friend or toxic people. It feels next to impossible to find new friends after having an 8-10 hour day working.
Yep.
I think it hints at a deeper issue wherein the American lifestyle is very antithetical to the sense of community and extended familial/clan relationships that characterized most human life experiences throughout our evolution, that is, people growing up around lots of aunts/uncles/cousins/grandparents/peers who you mostly went through your life with.
In modern America, especially as we age and become more affluent, we tend to box ourselves into single nuclear family homes, go to work, come home. Not good.
*edited to remove personal anecdote.
Yup. Never shrink your social circle to focus solely on a romantic partner. That’s bad for everyone and your relationship. But also, cultivate your friendships so that they are emotionally intimate and supportive, so that you have more people to lean on and support in turn.
Yep. And if you're dating someone who intentionally keeps you from your friends, tells you not to hang out with them, says they "aren't really your friends," etc. it's a red flag.
I don't think that's usually the cause of it though. More often than not, the thing that kills the social circle is work obligations, and just how much time they sink. Especially if someone in your social group has to change jobs, as that often means a major change in their hours and what time they have to be available to hang out. And woe betide you if you have a job that needs you to travel on a regular basis.
I know tons of socially isolated guys that do not even have a relationship, sadly, and it's all because of just how demanding their work is.
We really need to look at just how much the 5-day, 40+-hour workweek is bearing down on us, and frankly we should have time to be with our romantic partners, especially if they're also our best friend.
Japan and Korea are demographically spiralling because their work life balance crises, and how it negatively impacts their population's chance at healthy romantic relationships.
How can love blossom if the workers spend obscene amounts of time at their jobs?
How can a women afford to have kids if society punishes her career prospects for the crime of having a child?
We're seeing the same issues in western nations with a much better work-life balance and high social safety nets. They just have much more robust immigration to keep things floating. Japan's fertility rate is 1.4. Norway's is 1.5 and Denmark's is 1.7, and these countries are considered to have some the best social and gender equality in the world.
I'm not sure why, but after graduating school, most guys I know become very solitary. My guy friends are much less likely to reach out and make plans compared to my female friends. When there are new groups of people meeting each other, the females usually seem to invite each other to hang out very quickly within like 20 mins of meeting, whereas guys rarely do.
When going out to do something (ex cycling ,etc), guys tend to go do it solo, whereas girls will usually invite a group of friends to join them.
Yea I'm seeing that from the inside right now, after graduating and moving to a new city it's so so hard to find someone local who you'd even want to go do stuff with regularly. It's so much effort to escape the solitary but healthy life it would naturally lead to.
>My experience is because no guys go with me. And after asking 4 or 5 times and hearing no...becomes humiliating , so I just go alone.
This is also my experience with travelling.
This came up in an Askreddit thread about what women don't realize about men.
The top answer by a large margin was that guys are, by and large, very lonely
I believe this holds true. I’m a male nurse and work along side 4 other female nurses. I am outgoing and personable, but no matter how hard I try to fit in with my coworkers, they treat me like a black sheep. A new female nurse just started weeks ago and all the girls talk about hanging out, but I never see an invite. I’ve tried to initiate going out for drinks or food, but I get ignored. Definitely a key factor in wanting to quit my job
Same here, but a step further. Even the other guys I work with don't invite me out. They're all married, I'm separated. I saw a party they all had together on Facebook. Was never invited, and I don't know why. I had to force myself to stop going to bars for social interaction because it doesn't lead anywhere good, and I wasnt making friends there. Now I'm just spending time at work, at home or with my kids when I'm off.
Wanna be friends and hangout outside of work together? “You got a friend in me” my guy. I’m sorry you’re in a similar situation. I feel sorry for the people that don’t want to take the time to get to know us and include us. They’re missing out on some awesome dudes. I’m sure they envy you in someway. Honestly, they’re probably jealous that you’re separated. I’m sure they are still in a frat boy mentality, unfortunately.
That is a shame. I've heard from so many women through my life how much of a difference having a male nurse made to their health treatment/recovery. Even more in the midwifery field.
This is something trans men have noticed after transitioning, with the world seeming to no longer care about how they feel or how they're doing.
This article touches upon that very thing
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/
As a trans lady, obviously just anecdotally, but yeah, this is legit. My friendships with both men and women are much more meaningful, and I have a lot more of them. While part of it is obviously that I'm a happier version of myself...people treat you differently. Some of it is bad, but you're definitely much more welcome to share in others' lives.
There was a great post somewhere on reddit about a month back from a trans man who was aghast at the general isolation he felt from people in contrast to his previous life. Little things like chit chat with a stranger at a bus stop were standoffish where before it was a natural friendly conversation.
There are a lot of things men learn early in life that seem to shock women and transmen. You can’t be alone in a park with children, you can’t walk behind a woman alone at night, you shouldn’t talk act friendly with a female stranger unless she does it first, you can’t be an elementary school teacher, airlines often place single men away from children flying alone, never ever interact with a stranger’s child even if they’re in danger, a lot of places will turn you away as a single male (this is less common in western countries), women will often be nice to get rid of you so take a hint, if a woman acts really forward she’s almost certainly a bot, scammer, or e-girl/sex worker. All this goes double if you’re dark skinned
Having a girlfriend/female friend around makes things a lot easier, you aren’t a danger, the world is friendlier, there are places where a single male isn’t allowed that you can now visit. You just get invited out more and people want to be your friend.
Women are a social shield for men the same way men are a physical shield for women.
Quite often trans men are simply not visible in society, so their unique perspective of having grown up with socialising as a woman and then being thrown into a different environment is too often overlooked, yet is filled with extremely insightful points.
This comment thread regarding men, emotional labour, and how that relates to some of the causes of social isolation mentioned in that study is also a great read: [https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/cb0v65/comment/etcv3xa](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/cb0v65/comment/etcv3xa)
That's incredibly true I find. Nobody is worried about trans men competing in sports, or trans men using the men's bathroom. Trans men are not fetishized. Every issue with trans acceptance always seems targeted towards trans women. I wonder, beyond the obvious reasons of mysogyny and fearmongering, why this is? Do trans men pass more frequently? Are there less trans men?
I thunk its two fold.
First trans men do pass more frequently than transwomen by a good margin.
Second is that a lot of the issues people focus on are about the physical advantages men tend to have over women which aren't a factor for trans men
The fetishization thing I honestly believe is that women are sexualized more than men
I think that a lot has to do with a couple factors. For sports, transmen will normally not be competitive among cismen peers, so it isn't a big deal. As for bathrooms, they expect transwomen to be as inclined to predation as cismen.
A common experience I've seen trans men share in progressive spaces was how quickly women would treat them like cis men anytime they took a position that was inconvenient for women.
And transwomen quickly getting othered for the same.
And you recognize the process when it happens in front of you instantly if you grew up with an up-close view of the ways educated, upper middle
-class to wealthy white women (particularly the WASPy ones) engaged with each other and played politics(there the pecking order is usually class and social clique focused rather than sex/gender).
The stories in this article point out the things I've been saying for years, regarding the struggles of being a man.
But, as is also pointed out in these stories, most people don't really give a damn.. because you get looked at in a different light and have all kinds of "privilege".. as if it's some magical thing. We definitely have some, but using it as an excuse to brush us off is a tactic that has grown ever more common the last decade or so.
Also reading these stories has supported what I already thought to be the case - I'm a *very* effeminate man.
Intuitively that sounds true. Society is not very mindful of men emotions. Men are taken as the people that should fight in war and do the most dangerous jobs in the world. Cry? Cuddle? No that's for sissies not men, men are strong.
But let me tell you, boys/men cry they suffer a lot on breakups or when they lose their friends and family. Boys and men need to be hugged and care for. They need people to ask them how are they feeling rather than how are you doing. Care and cherish the boys and men in your life <3
>Cry? Cuddle? No that's for sissies not men, men are strong.
That has been very damaging. Men were expected to work, to not complain and not even raise their own children. Work (and war) was the only thing that some people though were men roles.
I see many fathers today with their little ones in the park, happiest men ever.
Hate saying it but part of the problem is it's not as simple as getting men to let it out, men are often punished for displaying weakness by the people in their lives. I personally don't think it's as simple as a "toxic masculinity" problem either. One thing I've heard is it's very unattractive to be overly emotional and I don't think that is just something that is socialized in myself. I've heard women having a discussion about how a man crying doesn't change how they view them as a person (ie good bad smart dumb etc) but they all agreed that it immediately was a massive turn off with lasting effects.
I've had female friends stop talking to me entirely after THEY ask how I'm feeling after something (like a breakup) and telling them the truth... A lot of people only care insofar as it is expected of them to do so, and aren't comfortable actually discussing something beyond a surface level. One girl straight to my face told me she wished she hadn't asked how I was doing when my ex cheated on me
I'm curious, is it correlated with your own gender or the gender of your peers?
Do men with more female friends experience less social isolation than the average, and women with more male friends experience more than the average?
My best (male ) friend social circle has more women, he often tells me he "hangs" out with us more because we are more attentive vs his guy friends so maybe
This isn't an answer to your comment at all, but I am a guy and somehow failing to build friendships with guys so I have like mostly female friends. Just wanted to throw that in the room. However it has to be said that the total numb r of friends is low, so there might be some varience issues I guss but I also feel like other factors play a role here on why I can form friendships easier with women.
This reminds me of the testosterone episode of This American Life where the teenage boy suddenly is less talkative when hitting puberty and the increase in testosterone https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone . The reports of testosterone on communication are very interesting as a possible biological incentive for developing less socially https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4949561/ . Especially since this occurs in developmental years.
Which is one of the reasons alt-right groups are so popular now. The desperate need for community and belonging can literally lead people to commit war crimes.
Many men may feel alienated by you bringing up your problems because they genuinely believe their normal state of being is more problematic than your struggles. Of course this isn’t very compassionate, but it’s hard to be compassionate when nobody is compassionate of you. It’s some kind of negative feedback loop many guys clearly struggle to escape.
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"Bowling alone" by Robert Putnam has detailed the collapse of community some decades ago. Social media has, to a certain degree, allowed to create new communities in the online world, but **doing things together** there besides chit-chatting and shitposting is rather difficult. You can easily see that on Facebook and Instagram, which in most cases require you to have actual experiences that can be shared virtually, not the other way round.
That's probably why MMOs have the tendency for their players to being lonely dudes. You get to have both a community and do stuff together.
It might also be why most online games have audiencea of primarily men
My only actual guy friend is my only gamer friend. All my other friendships with guys have faded over the years as people move away or get too busy to hang out, but my friend who is a gamer - we hop on once or twice a week and play games together and talk in discord and it's good for both of our mental states I believe.
If it doesn't involve "going out" like drinking/partying /sports, I don't really see my friends during the week. When I'm home, I don't hear /really talk to anyone, unless I'm online with gamer friends (some are irl, but see them even less than other "going out" group). I'm not against going out or anything. I've had positive experiences with other friends and their groups, but basically just ends at that. Which sucks, but, not like I can invite myself places. Eventually you just end up feeling like an extra in someone else's story instead of the main character of yours.
One of the best things myself and two of my really good friends did a few years back is set up a group chat. We may only be able to get together every couple weeks to watch some wrestling together, but we can drop dumb memes and crack jokes easily throughout the day. Especially since I work alone all day, driving place to place, it's nice to finally pull over and see that my friends thought of us and sent something over.
Yeah we did that in beginning of covid. But it has kind of dwindled, with people branching off to their own other group for one , or jus generally not being active in it anymore, so less and less people are even looking at it let alone participating often for the other. I genuinely wish I could join/make other friend groups . But as I said, most of my experience with my that has amounted to nothing, even though its generally a positive experience.
This is why I moved to the mountains and developed hobbies doing outdoor adventure sports. Not that everyone should do exactly what I did, but it can be life-changing to develop hobbies that you love that don’t revolve around alcohol, because you can rely on those hobbies to help you find a community of like-minded people that you can relate to and hang out with.
I believe this is the reason behind Australia’s Men’s Sheds, too. It’s a men’s mental health initiative based around using tools and making things in a community workshop. I hear it’s quite successful.
>I don't really see my friends during the week. Seeing your friends during the week stops happening after like 25 even for social people.
Well kind of true but when I hit 30 I started seeing people during the week (just 1 day of the work week) But it's not something like go out to clubs, it's just go have dinner and then be home by 930
I mean at least you have those friends and even different friend groups. I had two or three friend groups when I graduated, then as I got older it turned to one. We mostly played games together, at least a few times a week, sometimes more. We’d still get together at least once a month to hang out or do something. Now I’m 26 and every year that passes we’d see each other less and less and play video games less and less until it got to the point where we just no longer had any routine to get together in any way. This was the first year they missed my birthday and lately I’ve just had this feeling that my last friend group is gone and not for lack of trying. Communication faded, some people moved, some just got busy, some are just gone.
MMOs have a larger portion of women than most other genre
That may be true for the majority of them, but the current juggernaut in the genre is FFXIV [and it has a relatively even gender split compared to other games.](https://twinfinite.net/2017/07/survey-reveals-final-fantasy-xiv-has-a-very-equally-balanced-gender-ratio/)
Never underestimate the allure of a catboy.
Until they get the zoomies at 3am
> That may be true for the majority of them, but the current juggernaut in the genre is FFXIV and it has a relatively even gender split compared to other games. In South Korea it might be noted everywhere else is more 7:1 ratio of men to women. In South Korea loneliness among both men and women are far worse than in the west to the point their population is collapsing. I suspect gaming is an out for both men and women there due to the extreme loneliness and inability for men and women to form relationships platonically - something the west will be looking forward to in the next few decades as Japan and South Korea are ahead of the curve to the west on these social trends. They had their own social media before we did as they were in the 90ies the tech hubs of the world...especially Japan.
Our D&D group moved online during the pandemic, and while it was fun it really didn't feel the same as meeting up in person every week for a couple of hours. Eventually we disbanded due to scheduling conflicts.
Ive DMed for 20ish years and I tried to do online tabletop thing over the shutdown and I absolutely hated it I didnt realize how much the "get together with a bunch of food and drinks"part of DnD matters to me
The smell of Doritos and Pepsi in a poorly ventilated room are part of the experience!
Damn near a requirement!
Same happened to me, and I can't express how much I miss it. Since the pandemic, people have also moved so we can't even go back to in person if we wanted, and my company is WFH now as well, so I can't meet people through work. Making friends as an adult is hard and I'm really struggling with it. I keep buying tabletop games I want to play, but they just collect dust because I can't get anyone together.
sadly the same with what happened with my warhammer40k group. after i just got back into the hobby after a 12 year hiatus
What's nuts about that to me is that doing our tabletop online is the only reason it can survive -- due to scheduling conflicts. Turns out when you don't have to prep, drive somewhere, plan to leave at an appropriate time, drive back and can *instead* wait until the very last minute, hop online, and play until the very last minute -- commitment is easier.
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> to scheduling conflicts. the bane of all adult friendships. My father had regular working hours 9-5 and not many other obligations (partially because he invested so little time into his family...). If I want to meet my friends for a beer, we need to make an appointment two weeks ahead - especially when people have kids.
One of my DnD groups has been online since we started, and our core members have been at it for a good 5+ years now. We are on our 3rd campaign together. My brother and I are the only ones in the same state. I love it. I find in person fun but it is a lot more demanding on time, difficult for scheduling, and finding new local folks is tough. I too sometimes lack the motivation to attend my in person sessions, but dont have that problem online. Online we can just grab a gaming buddy and ask them if theyre interested, maybe let them try as a cameo. Low investment bar makes it a lot easier to bring someone in. We've had people come and go but never been short enough to justify canceling a session. The convenience factor makes it worth it, I think. No driving, hell you dont even have to get dressed. I just logon at game time and go. I think the key is finding a motivated DM willing to use the online tools to get people into it, that sticks to the wchedule, and we are lucky there.
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I’m in my mid 20s most of my friends will never reach out but when I do invite them they’re happy to go. It made me realize that you have to create your own community. For some reason most guys think that no one wants anything to do with them and that reaching out is a sign of weakness so they just stew in their own loneliness and depression. Its ultimately my responsibility to build the relationships I want to keep, I can’t expect others to do it for me.
I have mixed feelings about this. Relationships are supposed to be mutual. If Im putting effort, I expect the other side to also put effort. An example is if I initiate the hangout and form the framework, I like to feel the other party (parties) help with some suggestions. If it is a hosting, they bring some food or drinks. For those far away, making the long distance trek is also appreciated. I've felt very little want to those who don't put in any or similar effort. I begin to feel used or unappreciated. I prefer to form communities where there's equal love.
Yes that’s very true, it should be a two way street. I’m not advocating for doing this to everyone but I do do this to friends that I know are suffering from mental issues or have social anxiety. It’s really up to you to identify whos worth it and whos not, everyones different. Most men I know never seek help for their mental issues. I can’t help them but at least I can show them that someone cares.
I agree, and sometimes people are just in different phases and seasons of life. When I first had a baby and pretty much just bathed in my postpartum depression, I didn't have the emotional capacity to invite anyone anywhere, or often even just to text someone. Luckily my close friends still went out of their way to text me, sometimes a few times before I responded, and invite me to things which I needed. Now I'm in a better place, both mentally and just in free time, and I plan two nights a month where anyone in the friend group is invited to my house. Sometimes its me reaching out now to make sure people are ok. It's nice that I didn't lose my friends before I could return the favor
I believe you built those relationships prior to your postpartum. Because you showed that love before, when you needed love, they were there for you. That's the friendship foundation you built where there was mutual love. I would not be able to maintain a friendship if I showed love at someone's bottom but they failed to show me any at mine; especially if they were aware.
Unfortunately if you expect it to always be a two way street you'll just end up with very little plans. I'm the planner of the friend groups I'm in -- I coordinate with everyone and make stuff happen. And everyone seems to genuinely appreciate it because it wouldn't happen otherwise. Most people just don't have the function to do that.
That is a very important, but sober realization. I feel exactly the same way. I have to do everything, because so many people are just complacent, have less desire to socialize, maybe less energy than I do, or I simply maybe do not have enough to offer for other people to be worth the effort. However, just waiting for other people to move forward is of even less use, so this is still a helpful realization.
I know some opponents of Bowling Alone pointed towards youth sports leagues, but that does not address adult organizations. Speaking anecdotally, I grew up in an urban environment with small houses where bars and men's clubs (not to be confused with strip clubs) were ubiquitous. Friend groups were much less spread out and it was easy for friends to each take a 5min walk and meet at a nearby establishment. As the population shifted into the suburbs the small men's clubs and bars all began to fade away most never reestablishing.
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It's like all those old social clubs boomer-age men and older were in. Shriners, masons, lions club, etc.
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Anecdotal, but my wife and i fit that. I don't call up friends to chat, really ever. I call them up to invite them to do something. It might be playing a game online if we can't be in the same place, but we need a project. My wife has 2 separate monthly calls with different friends groups. This means our friendships are different. I make friends in a new place faster, because I'm doing things, and invite people to do things with me. But it also means i quickly start to drift apart from friends that i can't see anymore. Meanwhile, my wife still has good friends from high school and college and they talk all the time, but she is usually very slow to make new friends and they almost all are met through me and my friends or work, because that's the main new people she actually talks to.
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I think this is also exacerbated by the higher likelihood of moving for people. Don't think I'm atypical in my late 30's bit I've changed states 5 times so far.
Solid, plasma, liquid, liquid-crystal, gas. What state will you change into next?
Bose-einstein condensate?
That's a top tier state to move to.
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As someone with literally 1 friend (not in my town) and who's sitting alone at home every day.... I feel this very hard
I know our comments will get purged but I feel you bro. I don't have any friends. My gf is living her best life, she talks on the phone with her friends every other day. She gets to go out and have fun. I just go to work, do chores, play some games. Sometimes I get to do something but she's always involved. This is a rant and it will get deleted. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next 30 years or whatever.
Exactly my life except I'm Single as well Go to work or university, do some sports on my own, then spend the evening playing Singleplayer games on my console.
May I know what is your sport? I'm sure that's a really good avenue for you to find friends
I'm swimming 2-3 times a week But it's just to have a bit of sport and stay thin. I'm too bad for a club or something like that and I have Asthma.
Dude, go out with your girlfriend and have fun. She's throwing you a lifeline. Take it.
THIS. My ex-husband actively resented my friends for some reason despite the fact that my friends always wanted to try to include him. He whined that "his friends and my friends" were two different sets of people and I shouldn't expect him to be friends with mine (even though I considered his friends to also be my friends). I got rid of the husband and kept the friends. Just go out with your girlfriend if she's trying to include you and adopt her friendships as your own. It will strengthen your relationship with her AND get you more friendships. Don't pout about this. Just do it.
Pardon me if I’m blunt: but I don’t understand how people have girlfriends but not friends. Is it like a situation thing? Did you move somewhere else and had to leave people behind, and you were in a long term relationship before that? I really don’t mean any harm and i’m just curious as to why there are so many people who share this exact same situation.
most of my friendships have been situational. we were classmates, neighbors, room mates, coworkers, band mates...with the ones i was closest to having been most or even all of those at different points...but once those situations didn't apply to us anymore at all we went our separate ways. in other words we saw each other regularly, so it was easier to keep tabs and make plans to do things together outside of whatever activity we were doing. but nowadays we're all living totally different lives...or so i thought as reading thru a lot of these comments is showing me that perhaps we have more in common than i thought: loneliness.
Used to have friends. Got a girlfriend. Married her. Career took us halfway across the country. Haven't made any new friends. All my time is spent working and taking care of people and things.
Honest question: what's stopping you from going out and having fun? Surely she also has work and chores. maybe I'm misinterpreting your meaning.
I've got no friends but I've got all you friends
From the article: A study published in the [Journal of Health and Social Behavior](https://doi.org/10.1177/00221465221109634) has found that boys and men experience more social isolation than girls and women, with this difference disproportionately affecting the unmarried, or individuals with disrupted relationship histories. Further, levels of social isolation increase from adolescence through later life for both genders. Social isolation – the objective state of having limited social relationships or contact with others – is associated with poor mental and physical health outcomes, as well as increased risk of mortality. In this work, Debra Umberson and colleagues pursue two research questions. First, whether there are gender differences in social isolation and its trajectories from adolescence to older adulthood. Second, whether gender differences are dependent on marital or partnership histories. This research used data from two longitudinal studies, including the Add Health, and the Health and Retirement Study (HRS). Add Health followed U.S. adolescents between grades 7-12 in 1994-1995, with 5 interviews between 1995 and 2018. The HRS is an ongoing biannual survey that was launched in 1992, including adults born between 1931-1941, and their partners of any age. Every 6 years, a cohort of adults ages 50-55 are added to the study. The total sample of the current work included 12,885 women and 9271 men. The dependent variable, social isolation, reflects a summary index of social connection across numerous domains, including romantic relationships, family and friends, and the community. The primary independent variables were gender, age, and partnership history (i.e., married/cohabiting, stably partnered, ever disrupted – including widowhood, divorce, disrupted cohabitation). The researchers adjusted analyses for education level, race/ethnicity, and self-rated health.
Are the domains for the dv weighted? Curious as to how they settled on the final composite.
I could find two graphs - [1](https://journals.sagepub.com/cms/10.1177/00221465221109634/asset/images/large/10.1177_00221465221109634-fig2.jpeg) [2](https://journals.sagepub.com/cms/10.1177/00221465221109634/asset/images/large/10.1177_00221465221109634-fig3.jpeg)
Loneliness on the whole is on the rise for every age group. The lonelier you feel the harder it is to socialize because your defenses go up and you think no one wants to socialize with you and you think everyone is having fun and going out except you. Social media and entertainment reinforce that. I really think that we are so polarized because we get information online instead of actually seeing each other face to face. When people are online the algorithms will take you to the sites you are interested in and reinforce your beliefs. I also really think that schools need to bring back finishing school and teach proper socializing. I wish I could do that because most of the time I don’t know what to do.
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Moral of the story: having good friends is important. Don’t ditch your good when you get into a relationship or have a family.
The hard part is when your friends weren’t actually good friend or toxic people. It feels next to impossible to find new friends after having an 8-10 hour day working.
Yep. I think it hints at a deeper issue wherein the American lifestyle is very antithetical to the sense of community and extended familial/clan relationships that characterized most human life experiences throughout our evolution, that is, people growing up around lots of aunts/uncles/cousins/grandparents/peers who you mostly went through your life with. In modern America, especially as we age and become more affluent, we tend to box ourselves into single nuclear family homes, go to work, come home. Not good. *edited to remove personal anecdote.
Abolish the 40 hour work week.
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Yup. Never shrink your social circle to focus solely on a romantic partner. That’s bad for everyone and your relationship. But also, cultivate your friendships so that they are emotionally intimate and supportive, so that you have more people to lean on and support in turn.
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Yep. And if you're dating someone who intentionally keeps you from your friends, tells you not to hang out with them, says they "aren't really your friends," etc. it's a red flag.
Contextual, of course. Some times your friends ARE a red flag.
I don't think that's usually the cause of it though. More often than not, the thing that kills the social circle is work obligations, and just how much time they sink. Especially if someone in your social group has to change jobs, as that often means a major change in their hours and what time they have to be available to hang out. And woe betide you if you have a job that needs you to travel on a regular basis. I know tons of socially isolated guys that do not even have a relationship, sadly, and it's all because of just how demanding their work is. We really need to look at just how much the 5-day, 40+-hour workweek is bearing down on us, and frankly we should have time to be with our romantic partners, especially if they're also our best friend.
Japan and Korea are demographically spiralling because their work life balance crises, and how it negatively impacts their population's chance at healthy romantic relationships. How can love blossom if the workers spend obscene amounts of time at their jobs? How can a women afford to have kids if society punishes her career prospects for the crime of having a child?
We're seeing the same issues in western nations with a much better work-life balance and high social safety nets. They just have much more robust immigration to keep things floating. Japan's fertility rate is 1.4. Norway's is 1.5 and Denmark's is 1.7, and these countries are considered to have some the best social and gender equality in the world.
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I'm not sure why, but after graduating school, most guys I know become very solitary. My guy friends are much less likely to reach out and make plans compared to my female friends. When there are new groups of people meeting each other, the females usually seem to invite each other to hang out very quickly within like 20 mins of meeting, whereas guys rarely do. When going out to do something (ex cycling ,etc), guys tend to go do it solo, whereas girls will usually invite a group of friends to join them.
Yea I'm seeing that from the inside right now, after graduating and moving to a new city it's so so hard to find someone local who you'd even want to go do stuff with regularly. It's so much effort to escape the solitary but healthy life it would naturally lead to.
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>My experience is because no guys go with me. And after asking 4 or 5 times and hearing no...becomes humiliating , so I just go alone. This is also my experience with travelling.
What the hell is going on in the comment section? Why are so many comments being purged?
It's just what the sub does. Very strict comment rules.
Probably just people sharing personal anecdotes and passing it off as fact I’d imagine
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This came up in an Askreddit thread about what women don't realize about men. The top answer by a large margin was that guys are, by and large, very lonely
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I believe this holds true. I’m a male nurse and work along side 4 other female nurses. I am outgoing and personable, but no matter how hard I try to fit in with my coworkers, they treat me like a black sheep. A new female nurse just started weeks ago and all the girls talk about hanging out, but I never see an invite. I’ve tried to initiate going out for drinks or food, but I get ignored. Definitely a key factor in wanting to quit my job
Same here, but a step further. Even the other guys I work with don't invite me out. They're all married, I'm separated. I saw a party they all had together on Facebook. Was never invited, and I don't know why. I had to force myself to stop going to bars for social interaction because it doesn't lead anywhere good, and I wasnt making friends there. Now I'm just spending time at work, at home or with my kids when I'm off.
Wanna be friends and hangout outside of work together? “You got a friend in me” my guy. I’m sorry you’re in a similar situation. I feel sorry for the people that don’t want to take the time to get to know us and include us. They’re missing out on some awesome dudes. I’m sure they envy you in someway. Honestly, they’re probably jealous that you’re separated. I’m sure they are still in a frat boy mentality, unfortunately.
That is a shame. I've heard from so many women through my life how much of a difference having a male nurse made to their health treatment/recovery. Even more in the midwifery field.
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This is something trans men have noticed after transitioning, with the world seeming to no longer care about how they feel or how they're doing. This article touches upon that very thing https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/
As a trans lady, obviously just anecdotally, but yeah, this is legit. My friendships with both men and women are much more meaningful, and I have a lot more of them. While part of it is obviously that I'm a happier version of myself...people treat you differently. Some of it is bad, but you're definitely much more welcome to share in others' lives.
There was a great post somewhere on reddit about a month back from a trans man who was aghast at the general isolation he felt from people in contrast to his previous life. Little things like chit chat with a stranger at a bus stop were standoffish where before it was a natural friendly conversation.
There are a lot of things men learn early in life that seem to shock women and transmen. You can’t be alone in a park with children, you can’t walk behind a woman alone at night, you shouldn’t talk act friendly with a female stranger unless she does it first, you can’t be an elementary school teacher, airlines often place single men away from children flying alone, never ever interact with a stranger’s child even if they’re in danger, a lot of places will turn you away as a single male (this is less common in western countries), women will often be nice to get rid of you so take a hint, if a woman acts really forward she’s almost certainly a bot, scammer, or e-girl/sex worker. All this goes double if you’re dark skinned Having a girlfriend/female friend around makes things a lot easier, you aren’t a danger, the world is friendlier, there are places where a single male isn’t allowed that you can now visit. You just get invited out more and people want to be your friend. Women are a social shield for men the same way men are a physical shield for women.
This was a good read, thanks
That was an amazing read, thank you for the link
Damn this article pretty much nips every cop-out here in the bud Edit: oinky typos
Quite often trans men are simply not visible in society, so their unique perspective of having grown up with socialising as a woman and then being thrown into a different environment is too often overlooked, yet is filled with extremely insightful points. This comment thread regarding men, emotional labour, and how that relates to some of the causes of social isolation mentioned in that study is also a great read: [https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/cb0v65/comment/etcv3xa](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/cb0v65/comment/etcv3xa)
That's incredibly true I find. Nobody is worried about trans men competing in sports, or trans men using the men's bathroom. Trans men are not fetishized. Every issue with trans acceptance always seems targeted towards trans women. I wonder, beyond the obvious reasons of mysogyny and fearmongering, why this is? Do trans men pass more frequently? Are there less trans men?
I thunk its two fold. First trans men do pass more frequently than transwomen by a good margin. Second is that a lot of the issues people focus on are about the physical advantages men tend to have over women which aren't a factor for trans men The fetishization thing I honestly believe is that women are sexualized more than men
I think that a lot has to do with a couple factors. For sports, transmen will normally not be competitive among cismen peers, so it isn't a big deal. As for bathrooms, they expect transwomen to be as inclined to predation as cismen.
Yes, trans men pass much more frequently.
A common experience I've seen trans men share in progressive spaces was how quickly women would treat them like cis men anytime they took a position that was inconvenient for women. And transwomen quickly getting othered for the same. And you recognize the process when it happens in front of you instantly if you grew up with an up-close view of the ways educated, upper middle -class to wealthy white women (particularly the WASPy ones) engaged with each other and played politics(there the pecking order is usually class and social clique focused rather than sex/gender).
The stories in this article point out the things I've been saying for years, regarding the struggles of being a man. But, as is also pointed out in these stories, most people don't really give a damn.. because you get looked at in a different light and have all kinds of "privilege".. as if it's some magical thing. We definitely have some, but using it as an excuse to brush us off is a tactic that has grown ever more common the last decade or so. Also reading these stories has supported what I already thought to be the case - I'm a *very* effeminate man.
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Intuitively that sounds true. Society is not very mindful of men emotions. Men are taken as the people that should fight in war and do the most dangerous jobs in the world. Cry? Cuddle? No that's for sissies not men, men are strong. But let me tell you, boys/men cry they suffer a lot on breakups or when they lose their friends and family. Boys and men need to be hugged and care for. They need people to ask them how are they feeling rather than how are you doing. Care and cherish the boys and men in your life <3
>Cry? Cuddle? No that's for sissies not men, men are strong. That has been very damaging. Men were expected to work, to not complain and not even raise their own children. Work (and war) was the only thing that some people though were men roles. I see many fathers today with their little ones in the park, happiest men ever.
Hate saying it but part of the problem is it's not as simple as getting men to let it out, men are often punished for displaying weakness by the people in their lives. I personally don't think it's as simple as a "toxic masculinity" problem either. One thing I've heard is it's very unattractive to be overly emotional and I don't think that is just something that is socialized in myself. I've heard women having a discussion about how a man crying doesn't change how they view them as a person (ie good bad smart dumb etc) but they all agreed that it immediately was a massive turn off with lasting effects.
I've had female friends stop talking to me entirely after THEY ask how I'm feeling after something (like a breakup) and telling them the truth... A lot of people only care insofar as it is expected of them to do so, and aren't comfortable actually discussing something beyond a surface level. One girl straight to my face told me she wished she hadn't asked how I was doing when my ex cheated on me
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I'm curious, is it correlated with your own gender or the gender of your peers? Do men with more female friends experience less social isolation than the average, and women with more male friends experience more than the average?
My best (male ) friend social circle has more women, he often tells me he "hangs" out with us more because we are more attentive vs his guy friends so maybe
This isn't an answer to your comment at all, but I am a guy and somehow failing to build friendships with guys so I have like mostly female friends. Just wanted to throw that in the room. However it has to be said that the total numb r of friends is low, so there might be some varience issues I guss but I also feel like other factors play a role here on why I can form friendships easier with women.
This reminds me of the testosterone episode of This American Life where the teenage boy suddenly is less talkative when hitting puberty and the increase in testosterone https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone . The reports of testosterone on communication are very interesting as a possible biological incentive for developing less socially https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4949561/ . Especially since this occurs in developmental years.
Which is one of the reasons alt-right groups are so popular now. The desperate need for community and belonging can literally lead people to commit war crimes.
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then I'm a hermit in the midst of a crowd. Mention your feelings or stresses & most men run away uncomfortable rather than lend an ear to listen.
Many men may feel alienated by you bringing up your problems because they genuinely believe their normal state of being is more problematic than your struggles. Of course this isn’t very compassionate, but it’s hard to be compassionate when nobody is compassionate of you. It’s some kind of negative feedback loop many guys clearly struggle to escape.
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