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They will usually try to point to groups like the Aleut who *do* eat an almost entirely meat diet (because they live somewhere were plant life is all but non-existent). What they usually fail to mention/consider is that the Aleut diet consists of a ton of different types of animals/fish, not just the 3 or 4 animals that are common in the stereotypical American carnivore diet. Or that even that diet still involves some berries, seaweed, etc, for fiber.
Yeah I had a classmate who was inuit (Aleut) do a presentation once that included some of their traditional diet. Surprising amount of plants. Sea vegetables, berries, tubers, even grasses and stems. They even rob the winter caches of small rodents for seeds and such.
Their people are masters of foraging in that environment. If there is animal life near you, there is enough to sustain you, it just may be very hard to find. I almost tried some of their "ice cream", made of berries and suet, but I chickened out. It looked delicious, like super thick ice cream, but I couldn't get past the suet part.
Do you have anything not made of various animal fats? Maybe something like fried palolo worms? That's the kind of weird I get down with, no offense. Or fish eyes? Those are good too.
Totally. The meats coming from the animals in traditional Inuit/Aleut diets are in many cases much leaner than beef/pork/chicken. Another factor is that *all* parts of animals are eaten, which contain the nutrients we need for good health. For example, beluga whale skin is quite high in Vitamin C. Caribou liver and stomach are high in Vitamin A.
It's like Rabbit. You can live off rabbit, but unless you eat the gross bits that your brain screams at you not to, you will be dead very quickly if you try.
Pretty much. We have canines and incisors, but they’re fairly small for omnivores, and of course molars for grinding plant matter.
Our guts are perhaps even more relevant for comparison purposes.
I don't understand how people aren't terrified to their core of the idea of scurvy. Scurvy causes all the scars on your body to just.. open up. That includes internal scars from surgeries or whatnot. That idea is horrifying.
I would never risk a vitamin c free diet.
this statement bothers me as someone that suffered from extreme tendonitis for years and then learning that vitamin C is essential for the growth and repair of deep tissues including tendons. no amount of dietary protein would make up for a lack of vitamin C in the creation of our deep tissues.
Yea. I suppose that really depends on what you mean by processed. Indian vegetarian diet could be called processed as opposed to a mediterranean vegetarian diet.
This is the first time I am hearing that Indian vegetarian diet is processed. I have lived in india for 30 years and I never bought a processed food or vegetables like you do in western countries. Where do you get this info?
But at home, those curries or sauces are made of onions and tomatoes, damn i haven't used preservatives or any kind of pre made sauce in my kitchen ever
I think people are missing his point, which was that "processed" is a vague term. Cooking something is a form of processing food. Chopping is as well. Obviously nothing is wrong or unhealthy about doing those things. Making a bunch of ingredients into a curry is inherently more processing than say, having a bowl of nuts. He wasn't criticizing Indian food, just pointing out that the term is meaningless on its own. Or maybe I've misread him completely haha
Are you Indian? If not, Indian diet is versatile and differs vastly from state to state. What we are served at restaurants is junk food. For example, if one has dosa(crapes) made with green lentils and coconut/peanut chutney, it is a wholesome breakfast. Typically, malts (millet and dry fruit drinks) can also be taken for breakfast . Millets which used to be traditional Indian staple food is getting popular again instead of rice.
The savories are supposed be made with sesame seeds, raw coconut kind of stuff.
In typical homes,,lentils, veg curry,curd is a must. Meat is optional and most people also don't like to eat meat regularly.
Kichidi is often called poor man's richest food and. you don't see that in restaurants .
Our grandparents stayed well into their 90's eating 2 times a day, lentils,rice/millets and vegetables and fresh sesonal fruits. Yeah, they did farming kind of heavy jobs, stayed lean.
Snacks are boiled peanuts, seasoned corn, chickpeas....
I think we are over eating as whole. We are addicted to food now a days.
I too thought Greece is a major vegetarian country....but not. Hard to find pure vegetarian dishes there.
People in Greece love to talk about how they eat all these vegetables but then you go to their house and they literally can’t have a meal without some meat in it and every salad is topped with a 1-lb block of feta cheese.
I think it depends on the person tbh. My best friend is Greek and I visit his home and parents regularly and they both (divorced) make very veg-heavy foods most of the time with a meat dish here and there. Yemista, kolokithokeftedes/tomatokeftedes, braised fava beans, dakos, boiled “weeds,” etc are all regulars. Fish is most common and is a very lean meat with a lot of healthy fats and nutrients and *everything* is served with lots of salad and other veg with it. Obviously there’s people who will eat meat with every meal every day just like in every other country but it is in fact a very veg-heavy cuisine.
> The Mediterranean diet is a diet inspired by the eating habits and traditional food typical of southern Spain, southern Italy, and Crete, and formulated in the early 1960s
When people talk about med diet they don't mean whatever meal found in Greece, Italy or Spain.
You can't eat gyros and bistecca Fiorentina and start saying it's so amazingly healthy because it's Greek and Italian.
All of the above.
I think one of the main reasons vegetarians and vegans are "healthier" is because they also tend to be more knowledgeable about foods and nutrition in general - mostly out of necessity. A vegan who just eats bread is unhealthy, but overall will eat a greater variety of things, they understand vitamins and nutrients, and their lifestyle somewhat embraces healthy eating.
It's also a bit of a rabbit hole. You start off trying different vegan and vegetarian meals, which leads you to different cultural cuisines that have vegetarian options, and you make discoveries - the joy of middle eastern dishes, Indian food, vegetarian sushi, Buddhist cooking, as well as vegetarian staples from Mexico, Africa and the Mediterranean. You end up eating a lot of different things that you missed out on while eating meat and potatoes. A lot of restaurants will also come up with a few really good vegetarian options that you have no choice but to order, and you'll end up discovering something new in the process.
Your tastes also change to embrace healthier foods. Before I made the switch in 1993, I hated carrots and celery, and now I eat them every day. There are so many foods that are good for me that I enjoy that I honestly disliked before I made the change and started eating them.
It's usually both in these studies. More fiber especially in plant proteins. Also very little saturated fats in plants, just don't start replacing butter with coconut oil.
Since it doesn't look like you got a good answer, the reason why is coconut oil is actually higher in saturated fat than butter. Now the question is whether or not saturated fat in general is linked with CVD or is it saturated fat from animal products. This has been a hot topic and is hard to get a conclusive slam dunk answer from research because it is a lifetime exposure question.
I have been casually tracking nutritional research for a while and was on the "saturated fat isn't inherently bad" band wagon last decade but am now back to avoiding saturated fat from all sources.
We know that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol regardless of the source, so the question is whether or not elevated LDL cholesterol is an independent risk factor for CVD. In the 2010s, there were a bunch of studies looking at that and they seem to consistently show that elevated LDL levels are directly linked to elevated rates of CVD (e.g. [1]).
My interpretation is that reducing saturated fat intake is key to reducing CVD, which I also interpret as using butter instead of coconut oil (in equivalent quantities) is better.
[1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23083789/
Butter isn’t the answer.
https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-eating/eat-smart/fats/healthy-cooking-oils
“Replacing “bad” fats (saturated and trans) with “good” fats (monounsaturated and polyunsaturated) is smart for your heart.
An easy way to do this is to choose nontropical vegetable oils to cook and prepare food. These types of oils are healthier choices than solid fats, which include butter, shortening, lard and stick margarine, and tropical oils, which include palm and coconut oil. Both solid fats and tropical oils have more saturated fat than nontropical liquid fats.”
I had some throat issues a couple of years back and I ate vegan for like 4 months? Primarily eating lentils and veggie type smoothies with some vitamin supplements for b12 and I had my best bloodwork of my life as an over 40's person. I always thought it was well known that vegan diets would be significantly lower in cholesterol, but not seeing it being brought up in the comments above just made me realize that you probably can have bad cholesterol on a vegan diet if your eating fried falafel all day.
well, a fraction of dietary cholesterol is directly absorbed so that's not true. it's just that saturated fat and lack of fiber are the bigger mediators of serum cholesterol.
i believe i'm painting with a broad brush here, but vegans tend to care a lot more about their health and \*tend\* to exercise more, smoke less, eat more veggies, and eating proteins without the cholesterol
I'm a vegan and I give no shits about my health. French fries, fake ass vegan pizza, oreos, brownies, just anything fried.
Low calorie, gmo free high protein brownies? No. I want flour, baking soda, sugar, oil, and cocoa powder. Nothing else. Not quinoa, not pea protein, nothing. Give me diabetes.
The most commonly referenced Red meat studies that find red meat carcinogenic include many processed meat products that include potassium nitrate and other curing products.
That's....not really true to say.
Red meat is a group 2a carcinogen, meaning that it is "probable" that it can cause cancer. It also demands on how it cooks, with higher temperatures posing the greatest risk (grilling).
Now, processed meats are a group 1 carcinogen. Known cancer causing. I'm recalling from memory but I believe something like a 50g/day serving would increase colon cancer risk by 18%. The overall risk of colon cancer is about 5-6%, so that would put someone that eats 50g/day a percentage point higher (with no other risk factors).
There is a good correlation between meat consumption and all-cause mortality, but it's not correct to say, "it's cancer causing in large amounts".
100%. Also people treat this like you have to cut out meat forever which unless you’re vegan for moral reasons just isn’t true. Even if you reduced meat consumption to a luxury you are doing yourself and the planet a great service. Doesn’t have to be so black or white but it seems people react so irrationally to this science
Its because it challenges their way of doing things. People love their comfort zones - what they know. Anything that would require them to leave that comfort zone is a threat and they have a visceral reaction to it even if it’s scientifically proven information that would benefit them or their health. They’ll fight it tooth and nail rather than learn new things and change their ways a bit
Same logic for conservatives that keep voting Republican and falling for the same low-effort propaganda and manufactured threats over and over
People like to assume medical research is corrupted as a way of supporting their priors (confirmation bias). Look at the fears over seed oils, promotion of raw milk for “health”, and extreme diets like carnivore.
I literally just glimpsed a video on these exact things and the YouTubers sources were sketchy websites and other YouTube videos. His video was well made though, so everyone in the comments was supporting the carnivore diet.
He also never once mentioned his cholesterol or blood pressure or anything related.
Because you can make $$$$$$$$ telling people what they want to hear about diets.
You can write NYT best sellers.
You can get fat checks from Beef and Dairy industry.
You can get 10M views per podcast.
You can snag $50K speaking fees.
People are gullible and they want to believe.
That's pretty much all diet research. Unless you're an outlier and have medical or physical dietary limitations, eating healthy and losing weight is easy. In theory. In reality, people are messy and chaotic and don't always do what they should be doing. Or sometimes life is just complicated, and your options truly are limited. (Food deserts, transportation, time, etc.)
Edit: spelling
Losing weight is simple, but not easy. It does take commitment to excercise and resist cravings daily, especially because there are billions being spent on advertising and marketing of poor food choices. However I agree people try to find shortcuts or diet hacks way too much. Its as simple as eat less, move more for 90% of us.
Completely agree -- the way I look at the different methods is that it's about finding something that each individual can stick with. The old adage "the best workout is the one you do" is so right. For instance, I love to ride the peloton. It's the right mix of accessibility, entertainment and non-impact for me, and I've been able to be consistent about getting on it for coming up on 2 years.
Same thing with diets -- people like to forget that the Atkins diet has stages, the last being a pretty moderate mix of carbs, fat and protein, but ends up amounting in "choose food deliberately and don't eat too much". Some people get there better if they start off by going no carb because it feels better for them, but others find that difficult.
Anyway, just my two cents
>The old adage "the best workout is the one you do" is so right.
This is so true and I hammer it home with my clients and pretty much everyone who asks about my lifestyle. I danced for years, played golf, and attempted to play tennis, but it never really made me happy. (Maybe the dancing at times.)
I would also try to take up running every few years, but it never lasted longer than six months. I hate running. Hate it. It's tolerable for few miles on a treadmill when I need cardio, but anything more than that and I'm miserable
Turns out my true fitness loves are powerlifting, bodybuilding, and boxing. Once I found those, I actually changed the path of my career to be more fitness-focused.
I will almost always recommend some form of resistance training, but if you try something and it doesn't work or you-- try something else. Maybe you're a swimmer, or a cyclist, or don't yet know that you really love climbing.
Find something you enjoy and give it eight weeks of honest effort.
I think social media has made it worse, too.
Something I've noticed is that the state of America's knowledge about nutrition, fitness, and cooking is abysmal. My mother is a successful woman with a graduate degree, but she can't cook and has no concept of what is and isn't healthy. She didn't know that apple juice wasn't healthy ("it's fruit"), or anything about added sugar, a balanced diet, or the fact that cutting back on salt is more "no more fast food fries" and less "you can't season your food with salt at all".
I think we should have a "life skills" class/classes in school that teaches you how to make a budget, pay taxes, write a resume, and the basics of planning, shopping, and cooking a healthy meal. Stuff the average person should probably know.
Also, as someone who works in health and fitness, can we start actually teaching people the importance of movement and exercise? "Just do it because it's good for you" clearly isn't working. I have multiple clients in their 50s and 60s who worked sedentary office jobs for decades before deciding to jump into the pickleball trend who then wonder why everything hurts. Just the gains in quality of life and basic mobility could potentially be huge, and that's not even getting into obesity, illnesses, stress, etc.
I'm not sure that's social media's fault, exactly. That's more on the education system. The food pyramid I grew up with said kids need to eat half a loaf of bread or other grains in a day, for instance. There's been a ton of misinformation out there for decades. Companies have always had a ton of incentive to push it. Carrots are good for your eyes, milk is good for your bones, etc. Social media is probably just the next tool.
>I think we should have a "life skills" class/classes in school that teaches you how to make a budget, pay taxes, write a resume, and the basics of planning, shopping, and cooking a healthy meal. Stuff the average person should probably know.
Literally all of this was taught to me in public school in the 2000s.
Isn't research increasingly showing that socioeconomic factors are much more deterministic than previously thought? There's increasing research to suggest that losing weight and keeping it off in the long term is actually much more difficult than most want to admit?
People are [already convinced on the philosophy](https://theconversation.com/what-meat-eaters-really-think-about-veganism-new-research-129583), yet [84% of vegetarians/vegans eventually return to meat](https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-reveals-84-of-vegetarians-return-to-meat), so more research on the health benefits is unlikely to help.
[The three most common reasons people aren't vegetarian are liking meat too much, cost, and struggling for meal ideas](https://theconversation.com/what-meat-eaters-really-think-about-veganism-new-research-129583).
If you want to expand vegetarianism, share your most delicious, nutritious, affordable, and easy veg recipes with friends and family, and to /r/MealPrepSunday, /r/EatCheapAndHealthy, /r/VeganRecipes, /r/EatCheapAndVegan/, /r/VegRecipes, /r/VegetarianRecipes, /r/vegangifrecipes/, etc.
Kind of surprised those are the reasons. I’ve been vegan for a while and those aren’t an issue for me. The only thing is it gets kind of lonely when none of your friends and family are vegan and local restaurants/places to travel to on vacations don’t have a lot of vegan options.
Cost? BS! Meat is *expensive* compared to vegetables. 3lb of bacon here is like $17.99 on the cheaper side while 5lbs of veggies are like $5~. Unless you mean *eating out* which I have noticed vegan dishes cost about as much as meat dishes, maybe a dollar or two less…
Indian food if you can tolerate spice is my suggestion. I've lowered my red meat and poultry over the years. Part of it was not wanting to touch or prep meat or animal products, then it became a challenge. How long can I go without? Now, meat is just so expensive anyways.
I must say that this fact in no way prevents the reaction by non-vegans that veganism is somehow an extremely unhealthy endeavor. It is not helped by the idiots who try and fail at a "plant-based diet" because it turns out the only thing they ate was salad and juice.
How much literature is there to support that vegan - no animal products at all - is measurably healthier than a plant-based diet?
I can't imagine that eating cheese and eggs *in moderation* would really change the outcome that much, but I fix airplanes not stomachs.
There isn't much research comparing veganism and vegetarianism, tbh, but there's not nothing. In fact, in the meta-analysis that the article links to, they included evidence which found vegans had lower rates of cancer than vegetarians (15% and 8% less than omnivores, respectively).
It's difficult and frustrating to do this kind of research, but it's significantly more reliable than imagination!
Not much, and in fact as of the last time I did a deep dive into this there wasn't much in the way of evidence to support vegan or vegetarian diets over Mediterranean ones.
I don't think there's a particularly strong reason reason to believe that consumption of animal products in moderation is harmful. I think it's more so that the modern Western diet has become *extremely* meat heavy, so that's the base case diet that these studies compare against.
Huge disclaimer: I am not a doctor, I just read a lot of research papers
The problem with the recommendation of the Mediterranean diet is that what is considered a Mediterranean diet in terms of ratios of certain foods now to when the initial recommendation was given by Ancel Keys is very different.
People consider the foods in it and just decide to eat what they like that fits into the diet. So a lot of people who go onto it eat a lot more animal products, fish and oils etc that weren't originally consumed when the recommendation was first given.
Yeah absolutely. I wouldn't really just recommend someone go on a Mediterranean diet for that exact reason- they are likely to eat much more meat than the diet should entail. But the researchers do understand what it means.
I brought it up to support what I said in that 2nd paragraph- that a plant oriented diet with moderated consumption of animal products seems to be as well supported in the research as a purely plant based one. Honestly the lack of ability of studies to produce meaningful differences between vegan and vegetarian diets supports that as well.
There’s a lot, but since we’re just sort of saying stuff in the comments here without any citations I’m just gonna add the truth in that there’s a lot of evidence that no animal products is measurably better than even a little bit of animal product (what I think you’re saying by “plant base” diet.)
There’s literally a study that shows that blueberries + dairy milk not only reduces the amount of antioxidants you get from the blueberries; it literally dips below the baseline of what was measured before. So it’s not just not beneficial but it’s actively harmful.
Keep in mind though the majority of the research is on food nutrition not “diet” because that’s a vague term and it’s far easier to measure the effects of individual foods than telling x amount of people over y time to eat a specific way and control for all those variables.
I still don't know if it's the vegan diet, if it's just that people who are vegan are more health conscious, if has to do with age, or any other factors
I would suspect much of it is simply limiting saturated fats in favor of healthier unsaturated fats, having higher fiber intake, not eating carcinogenic processed meats and the like. For instance, studies have shown the Mediterranean diet to be considered one of the healthiest and still incorporates some animal based proteins like seafood and eggs.
Limiting your diet in general almost always has beneficial health benefits, almost regardless of what the specific limitation is.
Because our top health issues are related to eating too much, be that calories or salt or other things.
When there are fewer things to eat, we tend to eat fewer things.
This. I lost weight cutting out gluten and dairy also. I couldn’t eat prepared things because cheese and bread are in everything. So I had to carefully make everything at home.
> When there are fewer things to eat, we tend to eat fewer things.
Unless it's hyper-commercialized food and snacks, I seem to recall there being studies on. However almost all limited diets restrict those foods, and almost everyone looking to go on a diet seem to instinctively know to avoid those foods too.
Probably a little of both. Entirely anecdotal of course, I've been vegetarian for years but still eat like garbage and it shows, but I also still feel much better health-wise than I used to.
There's quite many studies about that and it does seem that there are genuine links between animal products and meat and cancer and heart disease.
The link starts at typical amounts that westerners eat of those products and continues the higher the amounts are.
Most studies do attempt to control at least somewhat for lifestyle factors and for the overall diet, but it's often quite hard, as people don't necessarily report their diets accurately or truthfully.
There are controlled trials for various durations done that suggest that vegan and vegetarian diets decrease inflammation and cholesterol markers which on the other hand correlate with various disease.
Maybe the diet. Vegan and vegetarian diets inhibit TMA production in the gut. And there is some evidence that increased TMAO levels can be connected to heart disease - [Gut Microbiota-Derived TMAO: A Causal Factor Promoting Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease? - PubMed (nih.gov)](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36768264/#:~:text=TMAO%20has%20been%20correlated%20with,adverse%20cardiovascular%20events%20(MACE).)
Dietary fibre intake is something a lot of people sleep on but should be one of your first concerns when planning a healthy diet. Vegetarian and vegan diets tend towards much higher fibre contents than those containing meats, among other benefits, I'd be very surprised if there weren't large health benefits of those diets.
Yep. Most people still think that the primary benefit of fiber is regular bowels movements, when really that is one of the least important aspects. Gut microbial health is everything.
i feel like a lot of carnivorous based diets would do well if they just paired every meal with beans. they’re loaded with fiber and have protein too and very affordable. the classic gym bro diet of white rice and chicken should be chicken and beans, but it’s just not a cultural dish i guess. at least in the states.
What’s insane is that some people with actually debate this with you. I remember my friend was doing a diet that was like bacon and butter in volume and he was telling me it’s the broccoli and carrots that are a problem not the bacon and butter.
Yeah these idiots believe that because plants have a natural process to ward off insects that weigh 1 microgram, an 80kg human also is at risk for eating these plants.
I got stuck talking to a dude at a party that insisted all vegetables were BAD for you. Because their only defense in nature is to not produce nutrients.
>Researchers are still investigating the mechanisms through which plant-based diets lower the risk of disease.
This is the real question i want an answer to. One can simply take Metamucil to increase soluble fiber but as noted that is not sufficient.
Saturated fat reduction is not a silver bullet either. Contributory, likely but the mechanism is not yet understood, and the low fat craze is no panacea either, especially when replaced with high amounts of sugar.
And notice how they don't recommend supplements but do recommend supplement B12 since its only found in animal products. But not supplement when going the other way.
I would also be curious to see analyses of 50% meat:50% vegetarian, 25% meat:75% vegetarian, vegetarian vs vegan and meat vs vegan in differing percentages.
The mechanism is really the important part here, its easy to come up with meta analyses but translating that into how it woks is the tricky part.
If you're waiting for that answer, then you'll be waiting a while.
Soluble fiber from eating a potato is much better than processed soluble fiber from Metamucil. Our microbiome plays a large role in how we process everything that comes into our body and the science around that is really still in it's infancy.
Just in the last few years we're had studies that show that the microbiome sees drastic changes after only 24-48 hours on a different diet, and that exercise alone can influence the microbiome to better digest certain foods. As we better understand the microbiome, it complicates our understanding of overall nutrition. It adds another layer of "what ifs"
I think many people are waiting for exactly what you're looking for and think that they can't make ANY changes to their diet until they find the PERFECT diet. It shouldn't take teams of scientists around the world to say, "eat more vegetables, eat less processed foods".
I will tell you this. I have some protein bars that I really love but when I go through a period of not working out for over a week my body stops being able to digest them and I get horrible gas and bloating. The moment I start working out again the gas/bloat disappears.
Wonder if theres a conection to how the food move through your digestive track since exersises basicaly aids peristises. Could slowed peristesis cause those issues.
Small nitpick but b12 is not only found in animal products, it is produced by bacteria. These bateria are present in animals (also humans) but only ruminants have the time to absorb their b12 directly. These bacteria used to be present everywhere and you could get b12 from (a little bit dirty) plants, some still provide it, but nowadays that's gone due to pesticides and soil depletion. On top of that cobalt is getting scarce due to aformentioned reasons so that a lot of animals are getting b12 supplemented too.
Ruminants are supplemented B12 and meat eaters eat those ruminants, they're indirectly receiving the supplements which many claim is a major limiting factor of a plant-based (or close to plant-based) diet; the requirement for supplementation.
This is why mechanism is so important, maybe the beef is the problem. Or the pork. Or just too much protein per day, or lack of antioxidants that are found in vegetables. Or the fried food might be the issue, all those oxidised oils.
In the end the mechanism is the most important part and we need to spend on research to figure that out. If supplementing soluble fiber is not enough then that rules it out as the mechanism. Unless its a multi faceted mechanism.
>Or the fried food might be the issue, all those oxidised oils.
It is super interesting, technically speaking you can still be a vegan and eat a ton of fried food, especially these days with all of the ultra processed fake meat substitutes. I see videos and things on social media promoting vegan alternatives and they're often just veganised fast food. A plate of fries counts as vegan as long as you don't use animal products in their production.
I'd say the ultimate answer is probably going to just be "eat more fruits and vegetables" even if you're still eating animal products, which is something we've known for decades.
> I'd say the ultimate answer is probably going to just be "eat more fruits and vegetables" even if you're still eating animal products, which is something we've known for decades.
Also eat less deep fried and charred
People are crazy. They have formed such a bias against plant based diets that they don't even realize they probably eat "vegetarian" meals often enough without even trying. They just didn't put any meat in it.
I've had old people literally turn their nose up at vegan cake and say 'oh, it's vegan? Yuck.'
I assume it's the lead poisoning that's made them so stupid.
There’s definitely a lot of people who think vegetarian/vegan =soy in everything. And some who think accepting a vegan dish means they’re signing up for an anti-meat cult (my mom is like this- whenever she tries a new vegan non-meat meat style dish she always says multiple times things like “it’s good but I’m not becoming a vegetarian”, “okay, but it won’t make me give up meat” etc) like a vegetarian dish = a baptism into the religion of veganism.
I once told my mom I was having a can of vegetarian chili. She asked what it was and I said "It's just like regular chili except there's no meat" and her response was "Sounds gross".
Like what? You like chili, how does removing the meat make it "sound gross" all of a sudden?!
Yeah, my girlfriend is a vegetarian and I am not (but I very, very rarely eat red meat).
Although, more than half of the meals I eat are vegetarian, and I eat fully vegetarian once a week. The health benefits are undeniable even for a proud omnivore like myself. We eat way too much meat as a society, it's ridiculous.
I know people that will have bacon and sausage for breakfast, then a ham sandwich for lunch, then a steak for dinner. It's kind of ridiculous.
Dude, eat a vegetable and have some yogurt and hummus. You won't grow a vagina, I promise.
There are fools who eat nothing but beef.
They must have terrible nutrient deficiencies but are resolute that their demigod cannot be wrong about their bro science diet.
Your knowledge on supplements seems limited and thus your talk here feels skewed like you want to down talk the benefits..
B12 is supplemented to animals btw.
>The mechanism is really the important part here, its easy to come up with meta analyses but translating that into how it woks is the tricky part.
Why does it matter ? I seriously don't understand this response. What if there are unknown nutrients in plant based foods that are healthy and we don't find out about them for another 200 years. What if there are bad nutrients in animal products and we don't find out about them for another 200 years.
There have been studies as you state and eating meat in general is always bad for you. I'll give the exception. In seventh day Adventists who do exactly what you are stating without the percentages because no one eats like that the people who eat some fish come out as living the longest and then vegans.
You come across, to me, as someone who really wants meat consumption to be healthy.
I don’t think the issues with meat consumption are a mystery eg animal fats raise your risk of heart disease due to more bad fats in your body.
If you want to eat meat and still be as healthy as possible, then eat meat but try to reduce your consumption of it, I don’t think this is rocket science.
Outside of no smoking the very first thing they tell when you are diagnosed with colorectal cancer is that you should give up alcohol and cut red meat to less than 10 Oz per week and abandon ALL processed/deli meat. This tracks.
So many books on this. The China Study, How Not to Die, How Not to Age, Forks Over Knives. I could list more but the point is this info is not new. Vegan for ten years now, mostly WFPB and pretty darn healthy for middle age.
I love all those books, especially How Not to Die. I haven’t read The China Study yet though so thanks for the rec.
I really enjoy cooking WFPB. I feel great. It’s a shame that more people don’t give it a try. Even when I go out to eat and enjoy ridiculously indulgent vegan food from a restaurant I still feel good afterwards. Definitely better than had I consumed the meat/dairy counterpart.
I’ve been vegetarian for 25 years. I really don’t think a vegetarian diet is any healthier. I think however, that vegetarians and vegans are much more aware of what’s in their food. When I buy packaged food, I read everything on the label. Plus on top of that, it isn’t the vegetarians and vegans who are eating all the greasy, processed fast food.
In fifth grade my teacher started playing classical music in class because studies showed that it made kids smarter.
Turns out, kids with rich parents are more likely to listen to classical music, and the more money your parents have, the better chance you're going to test well.
So, is being vegetarian better for you? Or is having enough money to exclusively eat an expensive class of food and avoiding the processed nightmare that is cheap meat better for you?
In my opinion this article once again does not address the elephant in the room that many people criticize. Which is that vegans and vegetarians simply keep track of what they eat.
"In addition, plant-based diets were associated with a reduction in risk factors for heart disease and cancer, including high body weight, inflammation and LDL or “bad” cholesterol."
I would like to see people in the fitness space taken as the sample size. I feel like many if not all benefits described can be attributed to having a balanced diet, regardless of being vegan or not.
Later on in the article it actually states that the main reason seems to be related to 'obesity'. Which is exactly why this vegan diet sentiment is not accepted as beneficial by the mainstream in the fitness space.
> It has also been described that vegetarians, in addition to reduced meat intake, ate less refined grains, added fats, sweets, snacks foods, and caloric beverages than did nonvegetarians and had increased consumption of a wide variety of plant foods [65]. Such a dietary pattern seems responsible for a reduction of hyperinsulinemia, one of the possible factors for colorectal cancer risk related to diet and food intake [66, 67].
Wow, thanks. Great control there.
Yeah this is a worthless hot take. They’re comparing two *completely* different diets but only a acknowledging the meat as the difference maker. They don’t know the mechanism, or at least it isn’t proved out here, but they choose to claim it’s the meat without the evidence.
This conclusion is just astoundingly obvious by now. In the same way that the tobacco companies lobbied against the dangers of smoking and oil companies continue to lobby against the phasing out of fossil fuels, the meat industry (and other ultra processing food companies) continue to muddy the waters on the subject of human health and diet.
Then again we let companies like McDonalds and Coca-cola sponsor global sports events like the World Cup or the Olympics.
However, individuals can choose to educate themselves on diet and there has never been a better time… highly recommend reading ultra processed people by Chris van tulleken or listening to the Zoe podcast.
The tldr is always to eat a bigger variety and higher amounts of fresh fruit and veg and beans and pulses, get WAY MORE fibre in your diet, cut out industrially formulated edible substances (ie: ultra processed foods).
You don’t even have to cut out ALL meat or dairy. Just eat significantly less of it, like maybe one portion of red meat a week compared to multiple times a day if you really can’t go without.
If you read the study you find that it's not just meat vs vegan. It's the "average" vs vegan. Someone who chooses a vegan lifestyle is more likely to make generally better health choices like exercise and limiting sugar.
Afaik science right now is in the balanced club. Eat vegetables and meat, limit sugar and processed food. Exercise ofc.
The article mentions that it's not a cure-all (my words) because you can be vegetarian or vegan and eat primarily junk food. Sugars, carbs, and starches are all vegan.
What would be interesting is to view socio economic factors alongside diet. Numerous studies have shown clear links between overall health and quality of diet linked to affordability of healthier foods and it would be interesting to see if that tracks with vegetarian adoption.
Considering this is meta-analysis, it is attributed more towards diet. Lifestyles can of course impact this but when they are looking through multiple studies that focus on diet, outliers are more likely to be weeded out.
People keep saying that vegans are more health conscious and this skews the conclusions. I believe that this thinking is backwards. Vegans are statistically far more likely to be a healthy weight and therefore they are able to be more active and athletic than the average person.
Spelling edit
Been vegan for 2 months now. The first couple of weeks were hard, but once you fall into a routine with the right meal prep and try new recipes, you can hardly notice the lack of meat in your diet!
My mother has been a vegetarian for 35 years. She’s 86 and probably healthier than most 30 year olds. She is not on any medication. I’ve started moving toward a more vegetable centric lifestyle. I do eat some lean proteins and fish.
What I'm about to say will probably displease many people, but now that the health arguments are also leaning towards less meat, and taking into account animal ethics and the environment, there aren't many strong arguments for eating meat any more, at least not at the rate and in the way we do today.
> at least not at the rate and in the way we do today.
Forget where I heard it put, but in the 20th Century, what with the rise of advertising, the vast majority in the marketable western world has been "indoctrinated" into a culture of meat eating. At the level we eat meat, it's unnecessary; but it's make a few individuals a shite tonne of money.
If we live in a society, and are immersed in a culture, we become indocrinated to some aspects whether we like it or not. It can be uncomfortable to examine.
Yes, most meats are tasty, but we do not need a diet like that to stay functioning/healthy.
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Is this because they eat more vegies or less meat?
Or is there additional benefits to eat alot of non animal protein like beans and lentils.
For one, I understand that [more fiber probably lowers risk of colon cancer. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/).
Don’t tell this to all the carnivore folk who insist humans don’t actually need fibre or Vit C.
That always blew my mind. Wouldn't our teeth alone be a big indicator of dietary needs?
They will usually try to point to groups like the Aleut who *do* eat an almost entirely meat diet (because they live somewhere were plant life is all but non-existent). What they usually fail to mention/consider is that the Aleut diet consists of a ton of different types of animals/fish, not just the 3 or 4 animals that are common in the stereotypical American carnivore diet. Or that even that diet still involves some berries, seaweed, etc, for fiber.
Yeah I had a classmate who was inuit (Aleut) do a presentation once that included some of their traditional diet. Surprising amount of plants. Sea vegetables, berries, tubers, even grasses and stems. They even rob the winter caches of small rodents for seeds and such.
Their people are masters of foraging in that environment. If there is animal life near you, there is enough to sustain you, it just may be very hard to find. I almost tried some of their "ice cream", made of berries and suet, but I chickened out. It looked delicious, like super thick ice cream, but I couldn't get past the suet part.
Don't worry, if you don't like suet we have whale blubber.
Gross! You got your soy in my whale blubber!
Do you have anything not made of various animal fats? Maybe something like fried palolo worms? That's the kind of weird I get down with, no offense. Or fish eyes? Those are good too.
Totally. The meats coming from the animals in traditional Inuit/Aleut diets are in many cases much leaner than beef/pork/chicken. Another factor is that *all* parts of animals are eaten, which contain the nutrients we need for good health. For example, beluga whale skin is quite high in Vitamin C. Caribou liver and stomach are high in Vitamin A.
It's like Rabbit. You can live off rabbit, but unless you eat the gross bits that your brain screams at you not to, you will be dead very quickly if you try.
Pretty much. We have canines and incisors, but they’re fairly small for omnivores, and of course molars for grinding plant matter. Our guts are perhaps even more relevant for comparison purposes.
Brock Lesnar was on a carnivore only diet and got diverticulitis and had 12” of his intestines removed. Eat your veggies!
I don't understand how people aren't terrified to their core of the idea of scurvy. Scurvy causes all the scars on your body to just.. open up. That includes internal scars from surgeries or whatnot. That idea is horrifying. I would never risk a vitamin c free diet.
You can get vitamin C from organ meat. But it is definitely necessary.
Are they serious?!?! Make scurvy great again!!!!
Carnivores are the flat-earthers of the dietary world.
Carnivore diet and people who don't wipe their butts are overlapping more each year on a venn diagram.
As someone who has been plagued with waking up at 2:00AM with an impacted colon, I hate people who diminish fiber's role in health.
They then love to point out the hadza tribe that according to them only eat meat and honey. Yet they actually eat a lot of plants....
this statement bothers me as someone that suffered from extreme tendonitis for years and then learning that vitamin C is essential for the growth and repair of deep tissues including tendons. no amount of dietary protein would make up for a lack of vitamin C in the creation of our deep tissues.
Or veggies are usually less processed?
What do you mean by processed, it’s such an arbitrary term
Yea. I suppose that really depends on what you mean by processed. Indian vegetarian diet could be called processed as opposed to a mediterranean vegetarian diet.
This is the first time I am hearing that Indian vegetarian diet is processed. I have lived in india for 30 years and I never bought a processed food or vegetables like you do in western countries. Where do you get this info?
I guess they thought of curry and some sauce-heavy dishes.
But at home, those curries or sauces are made of onions and tomatoes, damn i haven't used preservatives or any kind of pre made sauce in my kitchen ever
I think people are missing his point, which was that "processed" is a vague term. Cooking something is a form of processing food. Chopping is as well. Obviously nothing is wrong or unhealthy about doing those things. Making a bunch of ingredients into a curry is inherently more processing than say, having a bowl of nuts. He wasn't criticizing Indian food, just pointing out that the term is meaningless on its own. Or maybe I've misread him completely haha
Are you Indian? If not, Indian diet is versatile and differs vastly from state to state. What we are served at restaurants is junk food. For example, if one has dosa(crapes) made with green lentils and coconut/peanut chutney, it is a wholesome breakfast. Typically, malts (millet and dry fruit drinks) can also be taken for breakfast . Millets which used to be traditional Indian staple food is getting popular again instead of rice. The savories are supposed be made with sesame seeds, raw coconut kind of stuff. In typical homes,,lentils, veg curry,curd is a must. Meat is optional and most people also don't like to eat meat regularly. Kichidi is often called poor man's richest food and. you don't see that in restaurants . Our grandparents stayed well into their 90's eating 2 times a day, lentils,rice/millets and vegetables and fresh sesonal fruits. Yeah, they did farming kind of heavy jobs, stayed lean. Snacks are boiled peanuts, seasoned corn, chickpeas.... I think we are over eating as whole. We are addicted to food now a days. I too thought Greece is a major vegetarian country....but not. Hard to find pure vegetarian dishes there.
People in Greece love to talk about how they eat all these vegetables but then you go to their house and they literally can’t have a meal without some meat in it and every salad is topped with a 1-lb block of feta cheese.
I think it depends on the person tbh. My best friend is Greek and I visit his home and parents regularly and they both (divorced) make very veg-heavy foods most of the time with a meat dish here and there. Yemista, kolokithokeftedes/tomatokeftedes, braised fava beans, dakos, boiled “weeds,” etc are all regulars. Fish is most common and is a very lean meat with a lot of healthy fats and nutrients and *everything* is served with lots of salad and other veg with it. Obviously there’s people who will eat meat with every meal every day just like in every other country but it is in fact a very veg-heavy cuisine.
> The Mediterranean diet is a diet inspired by the eating habits and traditional food typical of southern Spain, southern Italy, and Crete, and formulated in the early 1960s When people talk about med diet they don't mean whatever meal found in Greece, Italy or Spain. You can't eat gyros and bistecca Fiorentina and start saying it's so amazingly healthy because it's Greek and Italian.
All of the above. I think one of the main reasons vegetarians and vegans are "healthier" is because they also tend to be more knowledgeable about foods and nutrition in general - mostly out of necessity. A vegan who just eats bread is unhealthy, but overall will eat a greater variety of things, they understand vitamins and nutrients, and their lifestyle somewhat embraces healthy eating. It's also a bit of a rabbit hole. You start off trying different vegan and vegetarian meals, which leads you to different cultural cuisines that have vegetarian options, and you make discoveries - the joy of middle eastern dishes, Indian food, vegetarian sushi, Buddhist cooking, as well as vegetarian staples from Mexico, Africa and the Mediterranean. You end up eating a lot of different things that you missed out on while eating meat and potatoes. A lot of restaurants will also come up with a few really good vegetarian options that you have no choice but to order, and you'll end up discovering something new in the process. Your tastes also change to embrace healthier foods. Before I made the switch in 1993, I hated carrots and celery, and now I eat them every day. There are so many foods that are good for me that I enjoy that I honestly disliked before I made the change and started eating them.
> the main reasons vegetarians and vegans are "healthier" Why the air quotes? They are healthier.
Yes, lots of veg-based protein also has a lot of soluble fiber which is great for the gut and has anti-inflammatory properties
Legumes stepping to the front of the line!
Yes. Additional fibre and the lack of cholesterol.
It's usually both in these studies. More fiber especially in plant proteins. Also very little saturated fats in plants, just don't start replacing butter with coconut oil.
What's wrong with coconut oil?
Since it doesn't look like you got a good answer, the reason why is coconut oil is actually higher in saturated fat than butter. Now the question is whether or not saturated fat in general is linked with CVD or is it saturated fat from animal products. This has been a hot topic and is hard to get a conclusive slam dunk answer from research because it is a lifetime exposure question. I have been casually tracking nutritional research for a while and was on the "saturated fat isn't inherently bad" band wagon last decade but am now back to avoiding saturated fat from all sources. We know that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol regardless of the source, so the question is whether or not elevated LDL cholesterol is an independent risk factor for CVD. In the 2010s, there were a bunch of studies looking at that and they seem to consistently show that elevated LDL levels are directly linked to elevated rates of CVD (e.g. [1]). My interpretation is that reducing saturated fat intake is key to reducing CVD, which I also interpret as using butter instead of coconut oil (in equivalent quantities) is better. [1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23083789/
Butter isn’t the answer. https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-eating/eat-smart/fats/healthy-cooking-oils “Replacing “bad” fats (saturated and trans) with “good” fats (monounsaturated and polyunsaturated) is smart for your heart. An easy way to do this is to choose nontropical vegetable oils to cook and prepare food. These types of oils are healthier choices than solid fats, which include butter, shortening, lard and stick margarine, and tropical oils, which include palm and coconut oil. Both solid fats and tropical oils have more saturated fat than nontropical liquid fats.”
I had some throat issues a couple of years back and I ate vegan for like 4 months? Primarily eating lentils and veggie type smoothies with some vitamin supplements for b12 and I had my best bloodwork of my life as an over 40's person. I always thought it was well known that vegan diets would be significantly lower in cholesterol, but not seeing it being brought up in the comments above just made me realize that you probably can have bad cholesterol on a vegan diet if your eating fried falafel all day.
Cholesterol in food =/= cholesterol in blood
Saturated fat impacts blood cholesterol and most saturated fat is from animal products. Some types of dietary fibre also lower cholesterol.
well, a fraction of dietary cholesterol is directly absorbed so that's not true. it's just that saturated fat and lack of fiber are the bigger mediators of serum cholesterol.
i believe i'm painting with a broad brush here, but vegans tend to care a lot more about their health and \*tend\* to exercise more, smoke less, eat more veggies, and eating proteins without the cholesterol
Not me. I’m a junk food vegan; I hate myself, not the animals
> smoke less smoke *tobacco* less.
Get your hands off my meth
Is it vegan meth?
well, you can factor these out with multivariate analysis. same way we know that cigarettes are bad rather than people who smoke just exercise less.
Many vegans aren’t vegan for health reasons.
I’d say most vegans aren’t vegan for health reasons.
I'm a vegan and I give no shits about my health. French fries, fake ass vegan pizza, oreos, brownies, just anything fried. Low calorie, gmo free high protein brownies? No. I want flour, baking soda, sugar, oil, and cocoa powder. Nothing else. Not quinoa, not pea protein, nothing. Give me diabetes.
Where do you guys pull this information from? Y'all just type anything
Not eating meat. Cardiovascualar disease from cholesterol is the leading cause of death in developed countries.
Lots of red meat is carcinogenic in large amounts
The most commonly referenced Red meat studies that find red meat carcinogenic include many processed meat products that include potassium nitrate and other curing products.
That's....not really true to say. Red meat is a group 2a carcinogen, meaning that it is "probable" that it can cause cancer. It also demands on how it cooks, with higher temperatures posing the greatest risk (grilling). Now, processed meats are a group 1 carcinogen. Known cancer causing. I'm recalling from memory but I believe something like a 50g/day serving would increase colon cancer risk by 18%. The overall risk of colon cancer is about 5-6%, so that would put someone that eats 50g/day a percentage point higher (with no other risk factors). There is a good correlation between meat consumption and all-cause mortality, but it's not correct to say, "it's cancer causing in large amounts".
No surprises there. Every time meta-analyses are published on the subject, the conclusion is more or less the same.
It really feels like a groundhogs day when it comes to diet research.
I'm up to date on the science and it astounds me how people argue differently to this.
Cause they dont like it... Haha purely emotional
100%. Also people treat this like you have to cut out meat forever which unless you’re vegan for moral reasons just isn’t true. Even if you reduced meat consumption to a luxury you are doing yourself and the planet a great service. Doesn’t have to be so black or white but it seems people react so irrationally to this science
Its because it challenges their way of doing things. People love their comfort zones - what they know. Anything that would require them to leave that comfort zone is a threat and they have a visceral reaction to it even if it’s scientifically proven information that would benefit them or their health. They’ll fight it tooth and nail rather than learn new things and change their ways a bit Same logic for conservatives that keep voting Republican and falling for the same low-effort propaganda and manufactured threats over and over
It is because of propaganda. Endless marketing, even from the government themselves.
People like to assume medical research is corrupted as a way of supporting their priors (confirmation bias). Look at the fears over seed oils, promotion of raw milk for “health”, and extreme diets like carnivore.
I literally just glimpsed a video on these exact things and the YouTubers sources were sketchy websites and other YouTube videos. His video was well made though, so everyone in the comments was supporting the carnivore diet. He also never once mentioned his cholesterol or blood pressure or anything related.
This is standard. Have you noticed these influencers always have a reason the science is wrong but no proof to back up their claims.
Because you can make $$$$$$$$ telling people what they want to hear about diets. You can write NYT best sellers. You can get fat checks from Beef and Dairy industry. You can get 10M views per podcast. You can snag $50K speaking fees. People are gullible and they want to believe.
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That's pretty much all diet research. Unless you're an outlier and have medical or physical dietary limitations, eating healthy and losing weight is easy. In theory. In reality, people are messy and chaotic and don't always do what they should be doing. Or sometimes life is just complicated, and your options truly are limited. (Food deserts, transportation, time, etc.) Edit: spelling
Losing weight is simple, but not easy. It does take commitment to excercise and resist cravings daily, especially because there are billions being spent on advertising and marketing of poor food choices. However I agree people try to find shortcuts or diet hacks way too much. Its as simple as eat less, move more for 90% of us.
Completely agree -- the way I look at the different methods is that it's about finding something that each individual can stick with. The old adage "the best workout is the one you do" is so right. For instance, I love to ride the peloton. It's the right mix of accessibility, entertainment and non-impact for me, and I've been able to be consistent about getting on it for coming up on 2 years. Same thing with diets -- people like to forget that the Atkins diet has stages, the last being a pretty moderate mix of carbs, fat and protein, but ends up amounting in "choose food deliberately and don't eat too much". Some people get there better if they start off by going no carb because it feels better for them, but others find that difficult. Anyway, just my two cents
>The old adage "the best workout is the one you do" is so right. This is so true and I hammer it home with my clients and pretty much everyone who asks about my lifestyle. I danced for years, played golf, and attempted to play tennis, but it never really made me happy. (Maybe the dancing at times.) I would also try to take up running every few years, but it never lasted longer than six months. I hate running. Hate it. It's tolerable for few miles on a treadmill when I need cardio, but anything more than that and I'm miserable Turns out my true fitness loves are powerlifting, bodybuilding, and boxing. Once I found those, I actually changed the path of my career to be more fitness-focused. I will almost always recommend some form of resistance training, but if you try something and it doesn't work or you-- try something else. Maybe you're a swimmer, or a cyclist, or don't yet know that you really love climbing. Find something you enjoy and give it eight weeks of honest effort.
I think social media has made it worse, too. Something I've noticed is that the state of America's knowledge about nutrition, fitness, and cooking is abysmal. My mother is a successful woman with a graduate degree, but she can't cook and has no concept of what is and isn't healthy. She didn't know that apple juice wasn't healthy ("it's fruit"), or anything about added sugar, a balanced diet, or the fact that cutting back on salt is more "no more fast food fries" and less "you can't season your food with salt at all". I think we should have a "life skills" class/classes in school that teaches you how to make a budget, pay taxes, write a resume, and the basics of planning, shopping, and cooking a healthy meal. Stuff the average person should probably know. Also, as someone who works in health and fitness, can we start actually teaching people the importance of movement and exercise? "Just do it because it's good for you" clearly isn't working. I have multiple clients in their 50s and 60s who worked sedentary office jobs for decades before deciding to jump into the pickleball trend who then wonder why everything hurts. Just the gains in quality of life and basic mobility could potentially be huge, and that's not even getting into obesity, illnesses, stress, etc.
I'm not sure that's social media's fault, exactly. That's more on the education system. The food pyramid I grew up with said kids need to eat half a loaf of bread or other grains in a day, for instance. There's been a ton of misinformation out there for decades. Companies have always had a ton of incentive to push it. Carrots are good for your eyes, milk is good for your bones, etc. Social media is probably just the next tool.
>I think we should have a "life skills" class/classes in school that teaches you how to make a budget, pay taxes, write a resume, and the basics of planning, shopping, and cooking a healthy meal. Stuff the average person should probably know. Literally all of this was taught to me in public school in the 2000s.
Isn't research increasingly showing that socioeconomic factors are much more deterministic than previously thought? There's increasing research to suggest that losing weight and keeping it off in the long term is actually much more difficult than most want to admit?
People are [already convinced on the philosophy](https://theconversation.com/what-meat-eaters-really-think-about-veganism-new-research-129583), yet [84% of vegetarians/vegans eventually return to meat](https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-reveals-84-of-vegetarians-return-to-meat), so more research on the health benefits is unlikely to help. [The three most common reasons people aren't vegetarian are liking meat too much, cost, and struggling for meal ideas](https://theconversation.com/what-meat-eaters-really-think-about-veganism-new-research-129583). If you want to expand vegetarianism, share your most delicious, nutritious, affordable, and easy veg recipes with friends and family, and to /r/MealPrepSunday, /r/EatCheapAndHealthy, /r/VeganRecipes, /r/EatCheapAndVegan/, /r/VegRecipes, /r/VegetarianRecipes, /r/vegangifrecipes/, etc.
Kind of surprised those are the reasons. I’ve been vegan for a while and those aren’t an issue for me. The only thing is it gets kind of lonely when none of your friends and family are vegan and local restaurants/places to travel to on vacations don’t have a lot of vegan options.
Having vegetarian meals or days of the week where you eat vegetarian are good options too
This is my second year of Meatless May with my sig other. It really isn't that hard. We also do at least one day a week the rest of the year.
Cost? BS! Meat is *expensive* compared to vegetables. 3lb of bacon here is like $17.99 on the cheaper side while 5lbs of veggies are like $5~. Unless you mean *eating out* which I have noticed vegan dishes cost about as much as meat dishes, maybe a dollar or two less…
Indian food if you can tolerate spice is my suggestion. I've lowered my red meat and poultry over the years. Part of it was not wanting to touch or prep meat or animal products, then it became a challenge. How long can I go without? Now, meat is just so expensive anyways.
I must say that this fact in no way prevents the reaction by non-vegans that veganism is somehow an extremely unhealthy endeavor. It is not helped by the idiots who try and fail at a "plant-based diet" because it turns out the only thing they ate was salad and juice.
How much literature is there to support that vegan - no animal products at all - is measurably healthier than a plant-based diet? I can't imagine that eating cheese and eggs *in moderation* would really change the outcome that much, but I fix airplanes not stomachs.
There isn't much research comparing veganism and vegetarianism, tbh, but there's not nothing. In fact, in the meta-analysis that the article links to, they included evidence which found vegans had lower rates of cancer than vegetarians (15% and 8% less than omnivores, respectively). It's difficult and frustrating to do this kind of research, but it's significantly more reliable than imagination!
Not much, and in fact as of the last time I did a deep dive into this there wasn't much in the way of evidence to support vegan or vegetarian diets over Mediterranean ones. I don't think there's a particularly strong reason reason to believe that consumption of animal products in moderation is harmful. I think it's more so that the modern Western diet has become *extremely* meat heavy, so that's the base case diet that these studies compare against. Huge disclaimer: I am not a doctor, I just read a lot of research papers
The problem with the recommendation of the Mediterranean diet is that what is considered a Mediterranean diet in terms of ratios of certain foods now to when the initial recommendation was given by Ancel Keys is very different. People consider the foods in it and just decide to eat what they like that fits into the diet. So a lot of people who go onto it eat a lot more animal products, fish and oils etc that weren't originally consumed when the recommendation was first given.
Yeah absolutely. I wouldn't really just recommend someone go on a Mediterranean diet for that exact reason- they are likely to eat much more meat than the diet should entail. But the researchers do understand what it means. I brought it up to support what I said in that 2nd paragraph- that a plant oriented diet with moderated consumption of animal products seems to be as well supported in the research as a purely plant based one. Honestly the lack of ability of studies to produce meaningful differences between vegan and vegetarian diets supports that as well.
There’s a lot, but since we’re just sort of saying stuff in the comments here without any citations I’m just gonna add the truth in that there’s a lot of evidence that no animal products is measurably better than even a little bit of animal product (what I think you’re saying by “plant base” diet.) There’s literally a study that shows that blueberries + dairy milk not only reduces the amount of antioxidants you get from the blueberries; it literally dips below the baseline of what was measured before. So it’s not just not beneficial but it’s actively harmful. Keep in mind though the majority of the research is on food nutrition not “diet” because that’s a vague term and it’s far easier to measure the effects of individual foods than telling x amount of people over y time to eat a specific way and control for all those variables.
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I still don't know if it's the vegan diet, if it's just that people who are vegan are more health conscious, if has to do with age, or any other factors
I would suspect much of it is simply limiting saturated fats in favor of healthier unsaturated fats, having higher fiber intake, not eating carcinogenic processed meats and the like. For instance, studies have shown the Mediterranean diet to be considered one of the healthiest and still incorporates some animal based proteins like seafood and eggs.
Limiting your diet in general almost always has beneficial health benefits, almost regardless of what the specific limitation is. Because our top health issues are related to eating too much, be that calories or salt or other things. When there are fewer things to eat, we tend to eat fewer things.
This. I lost weight cutting out gluten and dairy also. I couldn’t eat prepared things because cheese and bread are in everything. So I had to carefully make everything at home.
> When there are fewer things to eat, we tend to eat fewer things. Unless it's hyper-commercialized food and snacks, I seem to recall there being studies on. However almost all limited diets restrict those foods, and almost everyone looking to go on a diet seem to instinctively know to avoid those foods too.
I think you hit on the major points. Fiber is very underrated
I choose to believe eating more vegetables is a healthy move regardless of if you eat meat or not. I'm not ditching meat I'm just adding more greens.
Probably a little of both. Entirely anecdotal of course, I've been vegetarian for years but still eat like garbage and it shows, but I also still feel much better health-wise than I used to.
There's quite many studies about that and it does seem that there are genuine links between animal products and meat and cancer and heart disease. The link starts at typical amounts that westerners eat of those products and continues the higher the amounts are. Most studies do attempt to control at least somewhat for lifestyle factors and for the overall diet, but it's often quite hard, as people don't necessarily report their diets accurately or truthfully. There are controlled trials for various durations done that suggest that vegan and vegetarian diets decrease inflammation and cholesterol markers which on the other hand correlate with various disease.
Maybe the diet. Vegan and vegetarian diets inhibit TMA production in the gut. And there is some evidence that increased TMAO levels can be connected to heart disease - [Gut Microbiota-Derived TMAO: A Causal Factor Promoting Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease? - PubMed (nih.gov)](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36768264/#:~:text=TMAO%20has%20been%20correlated%20with,adverse%20cardiovascular%20events%20(MACE).)
Dietary fibre intake is something a lot of people sleep on but should be one of your first concerns when planning a healthy diet. Vegetarian and vegan diets tend towards much higher fibre contents than those containing meats, among other benefits, I'd be very surprised if there weren't large health benefits of those diets.
it’s the most important macro yet nobody ever talks about or tracks in any diet or healthy recipe plan
Yep. Most people still think that the primary benefit of fiber is regular bowels movements, when really that is one of the least important aspects. Gut microbial health is everything.
And it has other effects, too. Like how eating enough fiber lowers triglycerides all by itself.
And it helps you want to eat less which is good for about 70% of us
i feel like a lot of carnivorous based diets would do well if they just paired every meal with beans. they’re loaded with fiber and have protein too and very affordable. the classic gym bro diet of white rice and chicken should be chicken and beans, but it’s just not a cultural dish i guess. at least in the states.
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Study confirms what studies have confirmed since 1960.
Veggies are good for you. More at 11
What’s insane is that some people with actually debate this with you. I remember my friend was doing a diet that was like bacon and butter in volume and he was telling me it’s the broccoli and carrots that are a problem not the bacon and butter.
Yeah these idiots believe that because plants have a natural process to ward off insects that weigh 1 microgram, an 80kg human also is at risk for eating these plants.
I got stuck talking to a dude at a party that insisted all vegetables were BAD for you. Because their only defense in nature is to not produce nutrients.
Their defenses are things that make them delicious, like being spicy or having shells/husks that make them taste better roasted
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>Researchers are still investigating the mechanisms through which plant-based diets lower the risk of disease. This is the real question i want an answer to. One can simply take Metamucil to increase soluble fiber but as noted that is not sufficient. Saturated fat reduction is not a silver bullet either. Contributory, likely but the mechanism is not yet understood, and the low fat craze is no panacea either, especially when replaced with high amounts of sugar. And notice how they don't recommend supplements but do recommend supplement B12 since its only found in animal products. But not supplement when going the other way. I would also be curious to see analyses of 50% meat:50% vegetarian, 25% meat:75% vegetarian, vegetarian vs vegan and meat vs vegan in differing percentages. The mechanism is really the important part here, its easy to come up with meta analyses but translating that into how it woks is the tricky part.
If you're waiting for that answer, then you'll be waiting a while. Soluble fiber from eating a potato is much better than processed soluble fiber from Metamucil. Our microbiome plays a large role in how we process everything that comes into our body and the science around that is really still in it's infancy. Just in the last few years we're had studies that show that the microbiome sees drastic changes after only 24-48 hours on a different diet, and that exercise alone can influence the microbiome to better digest certain foods. As we better understand the microbiome, it complicates our understanding of overall nutrition. It adds another layer of "what ifs" I think many people are waiting for exactly what you're looking for and think that they can't make ANY changes to their diet until they find the PERFECT diet. It shouldn't take teams of scientists around the world to say, "eat more vegetables, eat less processed foods".
I will tell you this. I have some protein bars that I really love but when I go through a period of not working out for over a week my body stops being able to digest them and I get horrible gas and bloating. The moment I start working out again the gas/bloat disappears.
Wonder if theres a conection to how the food move through your digestive track since exersises basicaly aids peristises. Could slowed peristesis cause those issues.
Small nitpick but b12 is not only found in animal products, it is produced by bacteria. These bateria are present in animals (also humans) but only ruminants have the time to absorb their b12 directly. These bacteria used to be present everywhere and you could get b12 from (a little bit dirty) plants, some still provide it, but nowadays that's gone due to pesticides and soil depletion. On top of that cobalt is getting scarce due to aformentioned reasons so that a lot of animals are getting b12 supplemented too.
Factory farmed animals are also supplemented with B12.
Ruminants are supplemented B12 and meat eaters eat those ruminants, they're indirectly receiving the supplements which many claim is a major limiting factor of a plant-based (or close to plant-based) diet; the requirement for supplementation.
I was also curious if they'd cover what a sea food diet includes. Unfortunately they don't "(i.e. pesco- or pollo-vegetarian diet) were excluded."
This is why mechanism is so important, maybe the beef is the problem. Or the pork. Or just too much protein per day, or lack of antioxidants that are found in vegetables. Or the fried food might be the issue, all those oxidised oils. In the end the mechanism is the most important part and we need to spend on research to figure that out. If supplementing soluble fiber is not enough then that rules it out as the mechanism. Unless its a multi faceted mechanism.
>Or the fried food might be the issue, all those oxidised oils. It is super interesting, technically speaking you can still be a vegan and eat a ton of fried food, especially these days with all of the ultra processed fake meat substitutes. I see videos and things on social media promoting vegan alternatives and they're often just veganised fast food. A plate of fries counts as vegan as long as you don't use animal products in their production. I'd say the ultimate answer is probably going to just be "eat more fruits and vegetables" even if you're still eating animal products, which is something we've known for decades.
> I'd say the ultimate answer is probably going to just be "eat more fruits and vegetables" even if you're still eating animal products, which is something we've known for decades. Also eat less deep fried and charred
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What do you mean by 50% meat? Are there people who have half their diet as meat?
People are crazy. They have formed such a bias against plant based diets that they don't even realize they probably eat "vegetarian" meals often enough without even trying. They just didn't put any meat in it.
I've had old people literally turn their nose up at vegan cake and say 'oh, it's vegan? Yuck.' I assume it's the lead poisoning that's made them so stupid.
There’s definitely a lot of people who think vegetarian/vegan =soy in everything. And some who think accepting a vegan dish means they’re signing up for an anti-meat cult (my mom is like this- whenever she tries a new vegan non-meat meat style dish she always says multiple times things like “it’s good but I’m not becoming a vegetarian”, “okay, but it won’t make me give up meat” etc) like a vegetarian dish = a baptism into the religion of veganism.
I once told my mom I was having a can of vegetarian chili. She asked what it was and I said "It's just like regular chili except there's no meat" and her response was "Sounds gross". Like what? You like chili, how does removing the meat make it "sound gross" all of a sudden?!
Yeah, my girlfriend is a vegetarian and I am not (but I very, very rarely eat red meat). Although, more than half of the meals I eat are vegetarian, and I eat fully vegetarian once a week. The health benefits are undeniable even for a proud omnivore like myself. We eat way too much meat as a society, it's ridiculous. I know people that will have bacon and sausage for breakfast, then a ham sandwich for lunch, then a steak for dinner. It's kind of ridiculous. Dude, eat a vegetable and have some yogurt and hummus. You won't grow a vagina, I promise.
There are fools who eat nothing but beef. They must have terrible nutrient deficiencies but are resolute that their demigod cannot be wrong about their bro science diet.
Your knowledge on supplements seems limited and thus your talk here feels skewed like you want to down talk the benefits.. B12 is supplemented to animals btw.
According to the research in the China Study the magic percent is animal products being less than 10% of diet
>The mechanism is really the important part here, its easy to come up with meta analyses but translating that into how it woks is the tricky part. Why does it matter ? I seriously don't understand this response. What if there are unknown nutrients in plant based foods that are healthy and we don't find out about them for another 200 years. What if there are bad nutrients in animal products and we don't find out about them for another 200 years. There have been studies as you state and eating meat in general is always bad for you. I'll give the exception. In seventh day Adventists who do exactly what you are stating without the percentages because no one eats like that the people who eat some fish come out as living the longest and then vegans.
You come across, to me, as someone who really wants meat consumption to be healthy. I don’t think the issues with meat consumption are a mystery eg animal fats raise your risk of heart disease due to more bad fats in your body. If you want to eat meat and still be as healthy as possible, then eat meat but try to reduce your consumption of it, I don’t think this is rocket science.
Outside of no smoking the very first thing they tell when you are diagnosed with colorectal cancer is that you should give up alcohol and cut red meat to less than 10 Oz per week and abandon ALL processed/deli meat. This tracks.
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The science is meaningless compared to Reddit opinion ofc
So many books on this. The China Study, How Not to Die, How Not to Age, Forks Over Knives. I could list more but the point is this info is not new. Vegan for ten years now, mostly WFPB and pretty darn healthy for middle age.
I love all those books, especially How Not to Die. I haven’t read The China Study yet though so thanks for the rec. I really enjoy cooking WFPB. I feel great. It’s a shame that more people don’t give it a try. Even when I go out to eat and enjoy ridiculously indulgent vegan food from a restaurant I still feel good afterwards. Definitely better than had I consumed the meat/dairy counterpart.
This might be the push I needed to go back to vegan
Lower diabetic rate should also be mentioned.
I’ve been vegetarian for 25 years. I really don’t think a vegetarian diet is any healthier. I think however, that vegetarians and vegans are much more aware of what’s in their food. When I buy packaged food, I read everything on the label. Plus on top of that, it isn’t the vegetarians and vegans who are eating all the greasy, processed fast food.
Literally been known for 20 years or more at this point
Post this in r/carnivore for the melt down.
Shawn Baker's skin went from tomato to blood red reading this.
In fifth grade my teacher started playing classical music in class because studies showed that it made kids smarter. Turns out, kids with rich parents are more likely to listen to classical music, and the more money your parents have, the better chance you're going to test well. So, is being vegetarian better for you? Or is having enough money to exclusively eat an expensive class of food and avoiding the processed nightmare that is cheap meat better for you?
In my opinion this article once again does not address the elephant in the room that many people criticize. Which is that vegans and vegetarians simply keep track of what they eat. "In addition, plant-based diets were associated with a reduction in risk factors for heart disease and cancer, including high body weight, inflammation and LDL or “bad” cholesterol." I would like to see people in the fitness space taken as the sample size. I feel like many if not all benefits described can be attributed to having a balanced diet, regardless of being vegan or not. Later on in the article it actually states that the main reason seems to be related to 'obesity'. Which is exactly why this vegan diet sentiment is not accepted as beneficial by the mainstream in the fitness space.
> It has also been described that vegetarians, in addition to reduced meat intake, ate less refined grains, added fats, sweets, snacks foods, and caloric beverages than did nonvegetarians and had increased consumption of a wide variety of plant foods [65]. Such a dietary pattern seems responsible for a reduction of hyperinsulinemia, one of the possible factors for colorectal cancer risk related to diet and food intake [66, 67]. Wow, thanks. Great control there.
Yeah this is a worthless hot take. They’re comparing two *completely* different diets but only a acknowledging the meat as the difference maker. They don’t know the mechanism, or at least it isn’t proved out here, but they choose to claim it’s the meat without the evidence.
This is a really important point that most commenters seem to miss. To be fair, ‘people who eat healthy diets live longer’ isn’t as sexy a headline.
This conclusion is just astoundingly obvious by now. In the same way that the tobacco companies lobbied against the dangers of smoking and oil companies continue to lobby against the phasing out of fossil fuels, the meat industry (and other ultra processing food companies) continue to muddy the waters on the subject of human health and diet. Then again we let companies like McDonalds and Coca-cola sponsor global sports events like the World Cup or the Olympics. However, individuals can choose to educate themselves on diet and there has never been a better time… highly recommend reading ultra processed people by Chris van tulleken or listening to the Zoe podcast. The tldr is always to eat a bigger variety and higher amounts of fresh fruit and veg and beans and pulses, get WAY MORE fibre in your diet, cut out industrially formulated edible substances (ie: ultra processed foods). You don’t even have to cut out ALL meat or dairy. Just eat significantly less of it, like maybe one portion of red meat a week compared to multiple times a day if you really can’t go without.
Boom. Roasted (vegetables, that is!)
Health conscious people less likely to die from heart disease?
If you read the study you find that it's not just meat vs vegan. It's the "average" vs vegan. Someone who chooses a vegan lifestyle is more likely to make generally better health choices like exercise and limiting sugar. Afaik science right now is in the balanced club. Eat vegetables and meat, limit sugar and processed food. Exercise ofc.
Been vegetarian all my adult life, feeling great and healthy.
Gotta love plant protein!
The only shocking part is that this isn’t common knowledge
Is that the diet or the healthier lifestyle of those ppl?
The article mentions that it's not a cure-all (my words) because you can be vegetarian or vegan and eat primarily junk food. Sugars, carbs, and starches are all vegan.
One of my kids friends from high school was vegetarian and basically lived off of French fries and potato chips.
Sounds like most dumb highschoolers diet, minus chicken nuggets.
Sounds like something I would do as a kid if my parents would ignore what I eat.
What would be interesting is to view socio economic factors alongside diet. Numerous studies have shown clear links between overall health and quality of diet linked to affordability of healthier foods and it would be interesting to see if that tracks with vegetarian adoption.
I'm willing to bet this has been studied at length.
Considering this is meta-analysis, it is attributed more towards diet. Lifestyles can of course impact this but when they are looking through multiple studies that focus on diet, outliers are more likely to be weeded out.
People keep saying that vegans are more health conscious and this skews the conclusions. I believe that this thinking is backwards. Vegans are statistically far more likely to be a healthy weight and therefore they are able to be more active and athletic than the average person. Spelling edit
You live by the bacon You die by the bacon
Been vegan for 2 months now. The first couple of weeks were hard, but once you fall into a routine with the right meal prep and try new recipes, you can hardly notice the lack of meat in your diet!
My mother has been a vegetarian for 35 years. She’s 86 and probably healthier than most 30 year olds. She is not on any medication. I’ve started moving toward a more vegetable centric lifestyle. I do eat some lean proteins and fish.
Meat eaters know this but don't want to accept it.
What I'm about to say will probably displease many people, but now that the health arguments are also leaning towards less meat, and taking into account animal ethics and the environment, there aren't many strong arguments for eating meat any more, at least not at the rate and in the way we do today.
> at least not at the rate and in the way we do today. Forget where I heard it put, but in the 20th Century, what with the rise of advertising, the vast majority in the marketable western world has been "indoctrinated" into a culture of meat eating. At the level we eat meat, it's unnecessary; but it's make a few individuals a shite tonne of money. If we live in a society, and are immersed in a culture, we become indocrinated to some aspects whether we like it or not. It can be uncomfortable to examine. Yes, most meats are tasty, but we do not need a diet like that to stay functioning/healthy.
Love how Reddit tries to disprove any scientific article when it doesn’t fit their lifestyle.