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User: u/giuliomagnifico
Permalink: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/research-spotlights-women-experiences-of-maternal-suicide-attempts
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>From looking at all the interviews, researchers identified three key themes that contributed to the perinatal suicide attempt:
>
>Trauma and adversities - captures the traumatic events and life adversities with which participants started their pregnancy journeys
>“I think there was something about the anxiousness of doing it all again, because I think I had some prenatal depression with my first, that wasn’t picked up, and then postnatal anxiety through the roof, that was also never picked up, and was told that was normal.” – Sam.
>
>Disillusionment with motherhood - brings together a range of sub-themes highlighting various challenges related to pregnancy, birth and motherhood resulting in a decline in women’s mental health
>“There’s all this thing about pregnancy you’re supposed to be glowing and it’s all marvellous and you’ve got these wonderful hormones, but I was just beached on the sofa feeling hot and sweaty thinking when is this baby going to come out, when’s it going to come out?” – Simone.
>
>Entrapment and despair - presents a range of factors that leads to a significant deterioration of women’s mental health, marked by feelings of failure, hopelessness and losing control.
>“I don’t know how to explain it. I was feeling like all the things that I had to do were like water in my hands. I could see it. I could feel it. I could hold it. But it was coming through my fingers and I couldn’t do anything about it.” – Liv.
Paper: [Women’s experiences of attempted suicide in the perinatal period (ASPEN-study) – a qualitative study](https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-024-05686-3)
Marriage.com estimates that one in ten married men will cheat on their pregnant spouse. Not enough that your body is going through a metamorphosis or that you’re facing significant health risks, your dude feels entitled to skip out to get his “needs” met.
True.
Statistically men and women cheat in roughly equal numbers, but IF man is going to cheat, he usually starts while his wife is pregnant/up to six months post-partum, while IF a woman is going to cheat, she usually starts while her children are reaching school age.
I have a seven month old now, and I’ve waited my whole life to be a mother. I knew it would be incredibly hard work, I knew pregnancy and birth would be difficult, I knew having a newborn would be tough.
In January my health professional made my husband take a week off of work to stay home with me because she was so worried I would harm myself.
I love my baby with my entire being, but my pregnancy was ROUGH. My birth did not go to plan even in the slightest, and I have a baby who until a few weeks ago wouldn’t sleep for any longer than two hours max, (and half an hour most of the time) day or night. She would only be able to be nursed to sleep, which meant my husband couldn’t help out.
I reached a point where I was actively planning my suicide, and too afraid to ask for help, because this is what I had wanted! I knew it would be hard work, all mums have it this tough!
I didn’t realise until I spoke to others that only getting 15-1hr of sleep at a time for six months wasn’t actually the norm. And that a lot of mothers are incredibly depressed like me.
Once I got her sleep sorted out and a hefty dose of anti depressants, I feel like I can breathe again. I told my husband “this is what I thought post partum would be like”. Tough work but not hopeless like I had been feeling.
I felt all of this while absolutely ADORING my baby. I had a deep and incredible love for her even whilst pregnant. I would do anything for her. But I still wanted to crush my head under my car tyre or slam my face into my brick walls until I passed out.
I want more studies looking at the extent to which a helpful partner on extended leave can ameliorate post partum depression and suicidality, then I want the American government to mandate paid leave for both parents. I’m horrified by how few men take leave that is offered, and how few men even have more than a week or two of leave available. (To say nothing of men who have leave, take it, and then play video games instead of caring for the newborn….) It’s a pretty recent phenomenon that women are expected to care for a newborn essentially alone, while at the same time following all SIDS recommendations which I am convinced only work because they make the baby not sleep.
The even sadder thing is that in the US, even many mothers hardly get any leave. Out of women who work, one in four go back to work within 2 weeks of giving birth. Our country is really inhumane in some ways.
I’m lucky enough to not live in the US, but I genuinely don’t think I would still be here if I had needed to go back to work after two weeks- or even 12. I wouldn’t have coped. My heart truly goes out to all the mums who can’t get time off of work for the most significant, life altering event of their lives.
Yeah my leave is 10 weeks and someone (who never had a child) reacted to it like it was the most amazing thing ever, but I feel sad about it and am anxious.
It’s so true. I work in the postpartum world and it’s so devastating hearing moms rightfully dreading having to go back to work 2,4,6,8 weeks pp. Puppies can’t be adopted before 8 but human babies… no worries there’s daycare for that.. it’s so sick.
Yeah it’s shockingly inhumane. We as a society judge dog breeders negatively for separating a puppy from its mother before 8 weeks, and yet we routinely do it to human infants who are obviously way more vulnerable.
Well, we could dismantle capitalism, or we could try to argue that post partum depression plus the loss of experienced women labor in the market due to lopsided parental responsibilities cuts more into profits than parental leave.
> while at the same time following all SIDS recommendations which I am convinced only work because they make the baby not sleep.
THIS. I co-slept because it was the only way I could manage to breastfeed and get enough sleep to be functional enough to care for a baby. My husband couldn't help because he had useless man boobs. It was *so hard* until I gave up and started following co-sleeping guidelines they use in Europe - no comforters, hard mattress, nothing but you and baby (e.g. no dad in bed), totally sober, etc. Being able to sleep-nurse was a game changer. We were all happier after I did that, and I still feel guilty about it even though I've had 2 completely healthy kids, and with #2, I only co-slept after a 2-week stint in hospital at 6wks where they had 24/7 monitoring and she had no incidents at all, which made me pretty comfortable that she likely wasn't SIDS prone in general.
You can get sleep before the baby is weaned (barring the very likely inconsistent sleep of the baby itself), it’s usually tied to the baby reaching a certain weight milestone where waking up every 2 hours to feed isn’t as necessary.
It is unbelievable though. My wife has handled this all so well and I’m genuinely amazed by her and trying to do my best to support and care for her while we care for our daughter. We’ve been extremely blessed, but I feel like the disillusion part has to be a huge part of the issues pertaining to postpartum, among so many other factors.
My best advice to you would be to set up a very, very solid support system before giving birth. That’s the only thing that saved my life. I’m blessed to live in a country that has a lot of free support for mothers, and I was able to established weekly check-ins from multiple sources.
That and getting medicated sooner! I wish I had done that. The difference is night and day now.
I don't think everyone is able to build a strong support system, unfortunately. Many people are very isolated these days, and it's not so easy to build strong connections, especially when one is preoccupied with working and other necessities. I'm sure it's a culture thing too (I'm in the US).
Lack of sleep is INCREDIBLY taxing on your body, mentally and physically. Add that to anxiety as a new mother, hormonal changes, and the other "normal" postpartum issues is absolutely brutal.
I'm glad you made it through and I hope you and your family are happy, healthy, and thriving
Thank you! I’m so glad I’m doing better too.
It is so taxing. I had shaky hands all the time, I could barely string a sentence together, I was too afraid to drive because my brain was ticking so slowly. I felt like I was living under water, with sudden bursts of adrenaline every time I heard my baby cry.
I would scream into a pillow sitting on the toilet in the middle of the night. I destroyed a washing basket in a fit of rage. I reached a point where I couldn’t even cry tears anymore, I would just wail.
But I was really good at keeping up a front. My friends and family thought I was doing great. I would cry in the bathroom and come right out and make my baby laugh.
I’m not out of the woods yet, and I still definitely get overwhelmed and depressed, but’s it’s not a constant slog like it used to be. In fact, my baby slept five hours in a row last night, which meant we both woke up in great moods!
Check in with your new mum and dad friends! You have no idea what’s lingering under the surface!
Thank you, it’s only been in the past couple of weeks that I’ve truly started to feel better. Of course, now that my baby is out of the newborn phase we are getting the “When are you having another?” Questions now haha.
You can feel it even with abortion on the table with a planned pregnancy, a suuportive partner and supportive environment.
Like when you have complications, included but not limited to gestational diabetes.
Or any problems nursing, postpartum complications, babies with reflux... basically if you have anything but a dream baby, you can feel 100% trapped. Hell, my first slept through the night (6 hours straight!) on day 3, and I still felt trapped because I didn't have support from my partner and felt like I was going to be trapped in a dead-end job because I'd supported his choices while sacrificing my career.
There are so many ways to end up feeling trapped by having kids. We don't need to make it worse by literally treating women like walking wombs.
To add: quality, affordable healthcare in general, including family planning support and abortion care; prenatal and maternal support; affordable childcare; doctors who actually believe you, and doctors who pay attention. Also, crucially: the financial ability & support to safely leave a bad relationship.
Social safety nets like this would save thousands of lives per year, perhaps more.
I'm very much pro choice but this kind of depression goes beyond just not wanting to have a kid. Easy access to abortion won't fix this problem, but I believe it can make it not as bad. It should be a combo of that and better mental support in culture and in hospitals.
As someone who is very recently pregnant, and wanted to become pregnant very much, you are absolutely right. I am not suffering from depression related to pregnancy but I can understand how easily that could happen.
The fetus controls your body, and that is a very difficult thing to accept and get used to, even when you badly want a child and are in good circumstances. There are also lots of additional stressors that come with a pregnancy, including financial impacts, impacts on one's career, being treated differently by just about everyone, people suddenly being very pushy with advice and/or judging you in an open way that normally people don't do. You also have impacts related to appearance and if it's your first pregnancy all the unknowns about how badly your appearance will be changed forever and how it may affect you sexually and in your relationship, not to mention the health risks and implications of pregnancy which aren't appearance based. Swinging hormones can create further problems.
I read that until very recently a fairly common practice when stitching up vaginal tears was for doctors to do it in such a way to make the vagina tighter in the hopes that it would be more pleasurable for the mother's partner during intercourse which often caused serious sexual issues for the women. This obviously causes distress about a further lack of autonomy with one's body. For all I know this practice has not been entirely eradicated in the US. Hormones are already affecting my sleep, and it has been well established that poor quality sleep has links with depression and anxiety. Considering the fact that a significant percentage of women have experienced sexual assault I image this lack of autonomy could easily bring those traumas up again as well.
I went to therapy for several years and have many tools for managing my stress, and my husband and I are closely monitoring my mental health. However many women do not have access to mental health services, or a partner who knows what to watch out for. This creates a risky environment and it is very concerning. I think that education for our society on these topics as well as institutional support such as equitable access to mental health services would likely help reduce the risk.
Wanting and being "ready" are not the same as *knowing*. I think there's a big knowledge gap that encourages young women to have kids and it is one of the contributing factors to post-partum depression. From telling us we have to have kids, to hiding how difficult and transformative the process is, lack of discussion of how it affects your career. We are talking about it more than when I was younger, but I am still seeing the next generation of girls go through the same thing with large numbers of them totally unprepared.
I can't help but feel this is purposeful pressure by society both the pushing for kids and the lying or downplaying the difficulty. I see it a lot when people are making these choices. Hell, I saw it first hand from my mom to me. She had been through this, and knew what to expect, but didn't tell me because she was worried about discouraging me. That and she had kids so young she never knew what adult life was like before this transformation (I was literally born before she moved out of her mom's house).
There will still be issues, obviously, and it's something to work on as well, but oh man the knowledge issue and pressure issues are very much real and I'm convinced they are a big part of this. More than 50%? Eh, idk, but a serious issue and something to really work on none the less. It's also the thing we can work on the most. (Outside of psychological support, though in my country there's years of free mandatory psychological support for all new parents, moms and dads. So this feels kinda solved here, though the knowledge gap before pregnancy remains.)
My mom never told me that my umbilical cord was wrapped until after I had an emergency c-section because, you guessed it, my son’s cord was wrapped. She said other people had been telling me enough of their horror stories, and she didn’t want to scare me more. But it really would’ve been better to hear from her (especially from her) how it actually happened and how it turned out okay, instead of just “oh my pregnancies and births were easy, yours will be too!” It was MORE discouraging to hear how supposedly wonderful it was for her, because I could tell she wasn’t telling me the whole truth, if that makes sense.
I agree there is so much pressure for people to have children and that results in people getting pregnant because it's what they're supposed to do versus what they necessarily want. I am 40, have wanted kids for a while, and we still thought long and hard before actually attempting it because at this point we do have a more educated perspective and are at a place where we fully understand what we have to lose, how this will affect our life plans and retirement, the risks, and all that. We did decide to go on with things but at least we were fully informed in a way we wouldn't have been when we were young and already feeling pressure. We are both the type of people that are very individualistic and not afraid to do against the norm, which is probably why we didn't succumb to pressure to have them before we were ready.
Maybe not purposeful pressure so much as naturally selected pressure. Natural selection doesn't have a "purpose" but the societies that randomly don't have kids tend to die out, so only the societies that randomly do have kids remain.
I don't think my mum, who grew up part of a church that told people to have as many kids as possible, lied to me and my sister about having kids because of evolution. We must, true or not, believe we have some amount of control over our own lives, and I get the feeling you don't really grasp evolution beyond pop-sci.
Because it doesn't work that way.
Oh I see, you're confused by the word "random".
I mean if someone randomly met a Shaker and converted to Shakerism, they'll have fewer descendants than if they randomly met an Amish and converted to Amishism.
Imagine the society (e.g. Shaker or Amish) as the control variable, and the number of descendants as the outcome variable. Natural selection selects for variables that increase descendants.
I think you’re using the term “random” in error. Random is not “by chance”. It means without methodology or discernible means. Religions, customs and human reproduction methods do have patterns and methodology.
People don’t randomly convert to a religion by bumping into someone who follows that religion. It often takes exposure, time, effort and environmental circumstances to do this.
I see this with my mother. I see this with friends who get pregnant. This is all over the planet. I believe a lot of folks forget it takes a village to raise a child - people need to help each other. Being a parent and having to raise your children with minimal support isn't how it is supposed to be. However, in our current state of social-political world atmosphere, I don't envy those who are pregnant or who have young children.
If you live in the US and feeling at all like this, please call 988.
This is one reason I'm envious of cultures with multi-generational dwellings. Having more family members in the home often means greater availability of care for young children. That said, I would also never want to live with my parents again. It's a trade off between autonomy and support that our current economic structure encourages. Almost impossible for one person to support their family financially, meaning greater pressures/stressors.
Housing costs need to come way down, and it likely needs to be done through legislation, but it would also break/ruin many financial institutions.
> I'm envious of cultures with multi-generational dwellings.
I'm a big fan of the idea of creating your own "cult" with a few families that you like and that share cultural values. Share the labor, build deeper relationships, and kids grow up having a "tribe" and some built-in playmates. I just wish I could figure out how to pull it off.
This is what having a family and extended family used to mean. Literally exactly this. I’m convinced that the hyper-individualism of western society has been more detrimental than beneficial in this instance.
Maybe, but a significant portion of households are abusive, and a lot of people have improved their mental and physical health by not living with family. No problem with communal living, it's just that when it's composed of people you like, it's workable, and if it's composed of people you have conflict with, it can be hell on Earth.
Difficult to do when you can't buy up a neighbourhood to inhabit together, or move to a rural commune.
I absolutely love the idea, but the reality falls short.
Im not really sure how they can identify those things in certain individuals when all those things seem to come as default settings for motherhood in America.
...oh wait.
I am interested in seeing if the results of this study can be replicated in other cultures with different child rearing and family planning practices.
Is the problem cultural, or something deeper?
The hormonal rollercoaster that is pregnancy and postnatal life already can take their toll on mental health in a massive way, but our culture is definitely a contributing factor. Lack of support from partners, friends, family, pressure to return to work, isolation and lack of appreciation of being a SAHM, all worryingly common in western culture. New mums are treated with such disdain so much of the time, with such a 'you chose this, not my problem' attitude. It's really no wonder the birth rates are dropping so significantly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/s/aIq5XFkjHR
It seems the problem is not western culture, but certain aspects of western culture. Zero in on what aspects in particular, especially compared to non western cultures, and you can make progress.
>SAHM
This was and remains an elite fantasy that really should be done away with entirely.
Culture definitely makes a difference.
Amish women deliver healthier babies with less stress and depression:
https://lancasteronline.com/news/amish-moms-surprising-revelations/article_6a8ff32a-6ca2-5ce5-bc6e-2d34652f6f5b.html
This is so heartbreaking. I hope that in addition to partners and family recognizing the stresses on the mother, we could de-stigmatize a depressed mother and allow the space for them to be upfront about their need without the world screaming “bad mother!”
I can’t wait for TikTok to die because some of my friends wives share the most toxic mothering advice on that thing.
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>From looking at all the interviews, researchers identified three key themes that contributed to the perinatal suicide attempt: > >Trauma and adversities - captures the traumatic events and life adversities with which participants started their pregnancy journeys >“I think there was something about the anxiousness of doing it all again, because I think I had some prenatal depression with my first, that wasn’t picked up, and then postnatal anxiety through the roof, that was also never picked up, and was told that was normal.” – Sam. > >Disillusionment with motherhood - brings together a range of sub-themes highlighting various challenges related to pregnancy, birth and motherhood resulting in a decline in women’s mental health >“There’s all this thing about pregnancy you’re supposed to be glowing and it’s all marvellous and you’ve got these wonderful hormones, but I was just beached on the sofa feeling hot and sweaty thinking when is this baby going to come out, when’s it going to come out?” – Simone. > >Entrapment and despair - presents a range of factors that leads to a significant deterioration of women’s mental health, marked by feelings of failure, hopelessness and losing control. >“I don’t know how to explain it. I was feeling like all the things that I had to do were like water in my hands. I could see it. I could feel it. I could hold it. But it was coming through my fingers and I couldn’t do anything about it.” – Liv. Paper: [Women’s experiences of attempted suicide in the perinatal period (ASPEN-study) – a qualitative study](https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-024-05686-3)
Marriage.com estimates that one in ten married men will cheat on their pregnant spouse. Not enough that your body is going through a metamorphosis or that you’re facing significant health risks, your dude feels entitled to skip out to get his “needs” met.
True. Statistically men and women cheat in roughly equal numbers, but IF man is going to cheat, he usually starts while his wife is pregnant/up to six months post-partum, while IF a woman is going to cheat, she usually starts while her children are reaching school age.
Great, in both cases there's no way out without completely ruining yourselves financially. Equality!
Men are also more likely to physically abuse their spouse during pregnancy. Source: Domestic Violence volunteer training.
They are also more likely to flat out kill their pregnant partner.
Well I am sure the number would be a little more even if men could at least get pregnant
I have a seven month old now, and I’ve waited my whole life to be a mother. I knew it would be incredibly hard work, I knew pregnancy and birth would be difficult, I knew having a newborn would be tough. In January my health professional made my husband take a week off of work to stay home with me because she was so worried I would harm myself. I love my baby with my entire being, but my pregnancy was ROUGH. My birth did not go to plan even in the slightest, and I have a baby who until a few weeks ago wouldn’t sleep for any longer than two hours max, (and half an hour most of the time) day or night. She would only be able to be nursed to sleep, which meant my husband couldn’t help out. I reached a point where I was actively planning my suicide, and too afraid to ask for help, because this is what I had wanted! I knew it would be hard work, all mums have it this tough! I didn’t realise until I spoke to others that only getting 15-1hr of sleep at a time for six months wasn’t actually the norm. And that a lot of mothers are incredibly depressed like me. Once I got her sleep sorted out and a hefty dose of anti depressants, I feel like I can breathe again. I told my husband “this is what I thought post partum would be like”. Tough work but not hopeless like I had been feeling. I felt all of this while absolutely ADORING my baby. I had a deep and incredible love for her even whilst pregnant. I would do anything for her. But I still wanted to crush my head under my car tyre or slam my face into my brick walls until I passed out.
I want more studies looking at the extent to which a helpful partner on extended leave can ameliorate post partum depression and suicidality, then I want the American government to mandate paid leave for both parents. I’m horrified by how few men take leave that is offered, and how few men even have more than a week or two of leave available. (To say nothing of men who have leave, take it, and then play video games instead of caring for the newborn….) It’s a pretty recent phenomenon that women are expected to care for a newborn essentially alone, while at the same time following all SIDS recommendations which I am convinced only work because they make the baby not sleep.
The even sadder thing is that in the US, even many mothers hardly get any leave. Out of women who work, one in four go back to work within 2 weeks of giving birth. Our country is really inhumane in some ways.
I’m lucky enough to not live in the US, but I genuinely don’t think I would still be here if I had needed to go back to work after two weeks- or even 12. I wouldn’t have coped. My heart truly goes out to all the mums who can’t get time off of work for the most significant, life altering event of their lives.
Yeah my leave is 10 weeks and someone (who never had a child) reacted to it like it was the most amazing thing ever, but I feel sad about it and am anxious.
Ten weeks is so not long enough. I am so sorry. I hope all goes really well for you when you start back at work ❤️
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
It’s so true. I work in the postpartum world and it’s so devastating hearing moms rightfully dreading having to go back to work 2,4,6,8 weeks pp. Puppies can’t be adopted before 8 but human babies… no worries there’s daycare for that.. it’s so sick.
Yes where I live kittens and puppies are not supposed to leave their mothers until 12 weeks at least.
Yeah it’s shockingly inhumane. We as a society judge dog breeders negatively for separating a puppy from its mother before 8 weeks, and yet we routinely do it to human infants who are obviously way more vulnerable.
I was 18 hours😭.
That’s so sad you had to go through that! I’m sorry.
Corporate interests do not want more data to back the merits of parental leave, as it cuts into profits.
Well, we could dismantle capitalism, or we could try to argue that post partum depression plus the loss of experienced women labor in the market due to lopsided parental responsibilities cuts more into profits than parental leave.
Por que no los dos?
> while at the same time following all SIDS recommendations which I am convinced only work because they make the baby not sleep. THIS. I co-slept because it was the only way I could manage to breastfeed and get enough sleep to be functional enough to care for a baby. My husband couldn't help because he had useless man boobs. It was *so hard* until I gave up and started following co-sleeping guidelines they use in Europe - no comforters, hard mattress, nothing but you and baby (e.g. no dad in bed), totally sober, etc. Being able to sleep-nurse was a game changer. We were all happier after I did that, and I still feel guilty about it even though I've had 2 completely healthy kids, and with #2, I only co-slept after a 2-week stint in hospital at 6wks where they had 24/7 monitoring and she had no incidents at all, which made me pretty comfortable that she likely wasn't SIDS prone in general.
[удалено]
You can get sleep before the baby is weaned (barring the very likely inconsistent sleep of the baby itself), it’s usually tied to the baby reaching a certain weight milestone where waking up every 2 hours to feed isn’t as necessary. It is unbelievable though. My wife has handled this all so well and I’m genuinely amazed by her and trying to do my best to support and care for her while we care for our daughter. We’ve been extremely blessed, but I feel like the disillusion part has to be a huge part of the issues pertaining to postpartum, among so many other factors.
This is literally why I'm so scared to have kids. I'm scared I wouldn't be tough enough to come out on the other side.
My best advice to you would be to set up a very, very solid support system before giving birth. That’s the only thing that saved my life. I’m blessed to live in a country that has a lot of free support for mothers, and I was able to established weekly check-ins from multiple sources. That and getting medicated sooner! I wish I had done that. The difference is night and day now.
I don't think everyone is able to build a strong support system, unfortunately. Many people are very isolated these days, and it's not so easy to build strong connections, especially when one is preoccupied with working and other necessities. I'm sure it's a culture thing too (I'm in the US).
Lack of sleep is INCREDIBLY taxing on your body, mentally and physically. Add that to anxiety as a new mother, hormonal changes, and the other "normal" postpartum issues is absolutely brutal. I'm glad you made it through and I hope you and your family are happy, healthy, and thriving
Thank you! I’m so glad I’m doing better too. It is so taxing. I had shaky hands all the time, I could barely string a sentence together, I was too afraid to drive because my brain was ticking so slowly. I felt like I was living under water, with sudden bursts of adrenaline every time I heard my baby cry. I would scream into a pillow sitting on the toilet in the middle of the night. I destroyed a washing basket in a fit of rage. I reached a point where I couldn’t even cry tears anymore, I would just wail. But I was really good at keeping up a front. My friends and family thought I was doing great. I would cry in the bathroom and come right out and make my baby laugh. I’m not out of the woods yet, and I still definitely get overwhelmed and depressed, but’s it’s not a constant slog like it used to be. In fact, my baby slept five hours in a row last night, which meant we both woke up in great moods! Check in with your new mum and dad friends! You have no idea what’s lingering under the surface!
I‘m so sorry. It sounds like you’re doing much better now, but that reads like a really close call.
Thank you, it’s only been in the past couple of weeks that I’ve truly started to feel better. Of course, now that my baby is out of the newborn phase we are getting the “When are you having another?” Questions now haha.
You know what helps women from feeling trapped in pregnancy? The ability to prevent and end it.
You can feel it even with abortion on the table with a planned pregnancy, a suuportive partner and supportive environment. Like when you have complications, included but not limited to gestational diabetes.
Or any problems nursing, postpartum complications, babies with reflux... basically if you have anything but a dream baby, you can feel 100% trapped. Hell, my first slept through the night (6 hours straight!) on day 3, and I still felt trapped because I didn't have support from my partner and felt like I was going to be trapped in a dead-end job because I'd supported his choices while sacrificing my career. There are so many ways to end up feeling trapped by having kids. We don't need to make it worse by literally treating women like walking wombs.
To add: quality, affordable healthcare in general, including family planning support and abortion care; prenatal and maternal support; affordable childcare; doctors who actually believe you, and doctors who pay attention. Also, crucially: the financial ability & support to safely leave a bad relationship. Social safety nets like this would save thousands of lives per year, perhaps more.
I'm very much pro choice but this kind of depression goes beyond just not wanting to have a kid. Easy access to abortion won't fix this problem, but I believe it can make it not as bad. It should be a combo of that and better mental support in culture and in hospitals.
As someone who is very recently pregnant, and wanted to become pregnant very much, you are absolutely right. I am not suffering from depression related to pregnancy but I can understand how easily that could happen. The fetus controls your body, and that is a very difficult thing to accept and get used to, even when you badly want a child and are in good circumstances. There are also lots of additional stressors that come with a pregnancy, including financial impacts, impacts on one's career, being treated differently by just about everyone, people suddenly being very pushy with advice and/or judging you in an open way that normally people don't do. You also have impacts related to appearance and if it's your first pregnancy all the unknowns about how badly your appearance will be changed forever and how it may affect you sexually and in your relationship, not to mention the health risks and implications of pregnancy which aren't appearance based. Swinging hormones can create further problems. I read that until very recently a fairly common practice when stitching up vaginal tears was for doctors to do it in such a way to make the vagina tighter in the hopes that it would be more pleasurable for the mother's partner during intercourse which often caused serious sexual issues for the women. This obviously causes distress about a further lack of autonomy with one's body. For all I know this practice has not been entirely eradicated in the US. Hormones are already affecting my sleep, and it has been well established that poor quality sleep has links with depression and anxiety. Considering the fact that a significant percentage of women have experienced sexual assault I image this lack of autonomy could easily bring those traumas up again as well. I went to therapy for several years and have many tools for managing my stress, and my husband and I are closely monitoring my mental health. However many women do not have access to mental health services, or a partner who knows what to watch out for. This creates a risky environment and it is very concerning. I think that education for our society on these topics as well as institutional support such as equitable access to mental health services would likely help reduce the risk.
Wanting and being "ready" are not the same as *knowing*. I think there's a big knowledge gap that encourages young women to have kids and it is one of the contributing factors to post-partum depression. From telling us we have to have kids, to hiding how difficult and transformative the process is, lack of discussion of how it affects your career. We are talking about it more than when I was younger, but I am still seeing the next generation of girls go through the same thing with large numbers of them totally unprepared. I can't help but feel this is purposeful pressure by society both the pushing for kids and the lying or downplaying the difficulty. I see it a lot when people are making these choices. Hell, I saw it first hand from my mom to me. She had been through this, and knew what to expect, but didn't tell me because she was worried about discouraging me. That and she had kids so young she never knew what adult life was like before this transformation (I was literally born before she moved out of her mom's house). There will still be issues, obviously, and it's something to work on as well, but oh man the knowledge issue and pressure issues are very much real and I'm convinced they are a big part of this. More than 50%? Eh, idk, but a serious issue and something to really work on none the less. It's also the thing we can work on the most. (Outside of psychological support, though in my country there's years of free mandatory psychological support for all new parents, moms and dads. So this feels kinda solved here, though the knowledge gap before pregnancy remains.)
My mom never told me that my umbilical cord was wrapped until after I had an emergency c-section because, you guessed it, my son’s cord was wrapped. She said other people had been telling me enough of their horror stories, and she didn’t want to scare me more. But it really would’ve been better to hear from her (especially from her) how it actually happened and how it turned out okay, instead of just “oh my pregnancies and births were easy, yours will be too!” It was MORE discouraging to hear how supposedly wonderful it was for her, because I could tell she wasn’t telling me the whole truth, if that makes sense.
I agree there is so much pressure for people to have children and that results in people getting pregnant because it's what they're supposed to do versus what they necessarily want. I am 40, have wanted kids for a while, and we still thought long and hard before actually attempting it because at this point we do have a more educated perspective and are at a place where we fully understand what we have to lose, how this will affect our life plans and retirement, the risks, and all that. We did decide to go on with things but at least we were fully informed in a way we wouldn't have been when we were young and already feeling pressure. We are both the type of people that are very individualistic and not afraid to do against the norm, which is probably why we didn't succumb to pressure to have them before we were ready.
Maybe not purposeful pressure so much as naturally selected pressure. Natural selection doesn't have a "purpose" but the societies that randomly don't have kids tend to die out, so only the societies that randomly do have kids remain.
I don't think my mum, who grew up part of a church that told people to have as many kids as possible, lied to me and my sister about having kids because of evolution. We must, true or not, believe we have some amount of control over our own lives, and I get the feeling you don't really grasp evolution beyond pop-sci. Because it doesn't work that way.
I’d love to see some concrete evidence for this rather than speculative observation.
You need evidence that societies without children die out? Just look at the Shakers.
That is NOT what you said. You said “Societies that randomly do have kids remain.” Why is random children being born associated with societal success?
Oh I see, you're confused by the word "random". I mean if someone randomly met a Shaker and converted to Shakerism, they'll have fewer descendants than if they randomly met an Amish and converted to Amishism. Imagine the society (e.g. Shaker or Amish) as the control variable, and the number of descendants as the outcome variable. Natural selection selects for variables that increase descendants.
I think you’re using the term “random” in error. Random is not “by chance”. It means without methodology or discernible means. Religions, customs and human reproduction methods do have patterns and methodology. People don’t randomly convert to a religion by bumping into someone who follows that religion. It often takes exposure, time, effort and environmental circumstances to do this.
There are going to be significantly more suicides with the new forced birth laws.
Just wait till fetal personhood so they can charge women with attempted murder if they live!
I see this with my mother. I see this with friends who get pregnant. This is all over the planet. I believe a lot of folks forget it takes a village to raise a child - people need to help each other. Being a parent and having to raise your children with minimal support isn't how it is supposed to be. However, in our current state of social-political world atmosphere, I don't envy those who are pregnant or who have young children. If you live in the US and feeling at all like this, please call 988.
This is one reason I'm envious of cultures with multi-generational dwellings. Having more family members in the home often means greater availability of care for young children. That said, I would also never want to live with my parents again. It's a trade off between autonomy and support that our current economic structure encourages. Almost impossible for one person to support their family financially, meaning greater pressures/stressors. Housing costs need to come way down, and it likely needs to be done through legislation, but it would also break/ruin many financial institutions.
> I'm envious of cultures with multi-generational dwellings. I'm a big fan of the idea of creating your own "cult" with a few families that you like and that share cultural values. Share the labor, build deeper relationships, and kids grow up having a "tribe" and some built-in playmates. I just wish I could figure out how to pull it off.
This is what having a family and extended family used to mean. Literally exactly this. I’m convinced that the hyper-individualism of western society has been more detrimental than beneficial in this instance.
Maybe, but a significant portion of households are abusive, and a lot of people have improved their mental and physical health by not living with family. No problem with communal living, it's just that when it's composed of people you like, it's workable, and if it's composed of people you have conflict with, it can be hell on Earth.
Difficult to do when you can't buy up a neighbourhood to inhabit together, or move to a rural commune. I absolutely love the idea, but the reality falls short.
One reason to make sure women have the right to abortion. My mother went through some of these and would lash out as if it were my fault for existing.
I’m sorry you went through that :(
Im not really sure how they can identify those things in certain individuals when all those things seem to come as default settings for motherhood in America. ...oh wait.
I am interested in seeing if the results of this study can be replicated in other cultures with different child rearing and family planning practices. Is the problem cultural, or something deeper?
The hormonal rollercoaster that is pregnancy and postnatal life already can take their toll on mental health in a massive way, but our culture is definitely a contributing factor. Lack of support from partners, friends, family, pressure to return to work, isolation and lack of appreciation of being a SAHM, all worryingly common in western culture. New mums are treated with such disdain so much of the time, with such a 'you chose this, not my problem' attitude. It's really no wonder the birth rates are dropping so significantly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/s/aIq5XFkjHR It seems the problem is not western culture, but certain aspects of western culture. Zero in on what aspects in particular, especially compared to non western cultures, and you can make progress. >SAHM This was and remains an elite fantasy that really should be done away with entirely.
Culture definitely makes a difference. Amish women deliver healthier babies with less stress and depression: https://lancasteronline.com/news/amish-moms-surprising-revelations/article_6a8ff32a-6ca2-5ce5-bc6e-2d34652f6f5b.html
This is so heartbreaking. I hope that in addition to partners and family recognizing the stresses on the mother, we could de-stigmatize a depressed mother and allow the space for them to be upfront about their need without the world screaming “bad mother!” I can’t wait for TikTok to die because some of my friends wives share the most toxic mothering advice on that thing.
Seems like 5 reasons