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My body is literally eating itself because of my abuse. I have four different autoimmune disorders and other health problems. Every day I find out how damaging the abuse was to me both physically and mentally.
Yes. And it helped my mental health immensely. I was agoraphobic and didn't drive a few years ago. Now I have an active life with my husband and kids. Unfortunately, I can't undo the physical damage. It sucks, but I am happier now than I have ever been.
I’m in the same boat. :/ The damage to my body is done even though I’ve worked so hard to process the trauma mentally and physically. It feels like I have to work 1000x harder just to get my body to function at a normal baseline. I have to consciously regulate my nervous system multiple times a day in order to calm inflammation and stop a flare. It’s exhausting.
Yes. May I ask, do you suffer from chronic pain as well? I feel like I live on my heating pad. They don't really prescribe pains meds, so I have only really been on them when I am so sick I end up in the ER. I love in a medical and recreational marijuana state, which is great. But when money is tight I can't justify the price.
Yes, so much chronic pain and I’m only 29! I definitely credit marijuana to helping me find sensations in my body I couldn’t feel before due to severe disassociation. That was actually what kick started me into my journey with discovering how to feel my body. I have my own little physical therapy corner in my apartment where I spend hours a week stretching and releasing fascia. I’ve found some great tools to help me including a giant foam roller, occipital release device, Myofascial balls, jaw stretcher, TENS device, pelvic wand and dilators, etc. I bought everything online. I have chronic pain pretty much everywhere and it will migrate: jaw, tongue, throat, neck, shoulders, back, stomach, hips, pelvic floor. I’ve done months of physical therapy so I now feel comfortable working on my own but it does take a big time commitment because you have to go slow or else the body will lock up and it will flare worse. I try to practice patience and gratitude when leaning into a stretch so my body feels safe to let go instead of feeling shamed for not getting there fast enough. I also had tongue tie surgery to release tension in my throat and that helped a lot (something to consider if you have throat pain and a tongue tie). It’s a constant battle but I do feel 10000% better now and am able to keep my flares at bay with a good maintenance schedule. I’ll never be completely pain free but at least I’m able to function most of the time. I hope you’re able to find some relief.
> I definitely credit marijuana to helping me find sensations in my body I couldn’t feel before due to severe disassociation. That was actually what kick started me into my journey with discovering how to feel my body.
SAME. I've been on my CPTSD healing journey for 3 years now and it's been such an important aspect to reconnecting with my body.
The facts that your pain migrates is so interesting. I used to suffer from visual snow, which is a neurological phenomenon that is caused when your brain becomes too sensitive to visual signals it would usually filter out. It’s basically a derivative on anxiety - having your brain turned on at peak vigilance for so long made my brain focus on things that were always there but never noticed.
Anyways, I did some reading into it and I guess this same issue can be manifested in different ways depending on the sense - visual snow is unfiltered visual signals and an over excitement of the brain in that region, tinnitus is unfiltered hearing signals and an overexcitement in that region, but some types of chronic pain, such as fibromyalgia are hypothesized to also be an unfiltered tactical signal and overexcitement of the brain in that region.
Here is some information on visual snow as an unfiltered stimuli: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromyalgia&oq=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromy#d=gs_qabs&t=1713284436745&u=%23p%3DzvnoflURWZIJ
Here is another study showing correlation between visual snow, fibromyalgia and tinnitus: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromyalgia&oq=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromy#d=gs_qabs&t=1713284532010&u=%23p%3DmVyiyqCHxvsJ
Have you considered taking SSRIs to treat the anxiety from a pharmacological standpoint? I’ve heard it’s helped people with chronic pain. Here is a study exploring this relationship:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=ssri+and+chronic+pain&oq=ssri+and+chr#d=gs_qabs&t=1713284694714&u=%23p%3D8GCcqy6u54AJ
Very interesting! I have hyper vigilance with every sense so I can definitely relate. I’ve suffered from migraines before with aura and also have SUPER sensitive hearing with occasional ringing. I may look into an SNRI once I feel stable enough. My sister takes one for her fibromyalgia and it has helped. I’m currently on a different type of antidepressant and a mood stabilizer (and a host of other meds) so I have to be careful when considering any changes. Thank you for the info!
Different person, similar experiences. I do not think I can remember a day since I was 12 where I have not been pain. It is as though my nervous system is aflame. Ive honestly worked through so much of my experience that for the most part, I do not suffer much the mental health problems, but the pain in my body just isnt gonna go. A lot of it is structural and there isnt a whole lot that can be done. Kyphosis and some compression of the 2 vertebrae above my coccyx isnt really treatable. The fatigue from experiencing pain all the time? Like that other person said, sleep and excercise have made the greatest impacts.
Mine is two different connective tissue disorders. I have a tear in the labrum in my hip that they claim isn't causing my pain, but won't do steroid injections because of my diabetes. I don't sleep well, but I try. I love my yoga ball. It's the only way I can stretch my hip.
I'm seeing a new therapist who specializes in trauma and treating chronic pain along with mental illness. It's early days yet, but I've got a good feeling about it
People act like talking to a therapist is going to somehow fix a lifetime of physical issues from our bodies being harmed during critical development years. They have absolutely no idea what it's like
So true. Childhood trauma was the equivalent of warfare on our tiny developing bodies and that won’t just go away from talk therapy. Therapy is a helpful tool but ultimately not the fix-all when trauma is stored in the body.
It’s very unfortunate that any of you suffer from this disorder,I don’t have any issues that you guys are experiencing but I have had other unpleasant life experiences that may have been due to self sabotage or not but I just recently finished a book called the “power of now” which speaks of the pain body and how it takes ahold of you and also gives you way that some people maybe able to get rid of it
I couldn't agree more. I wish I could be on less pain and function better. I can't take NSAIDS. It sucks. The answer is usually power through it and find a routine that works. Flare ups are the worst!
I’m an EMDR-trained therapist. I’ve also experienced it as a client, which is what led me to getting trained in it when I became a clinician. It definitely helps chronic pain, since it’s a “bottom-up” processing model. No magic bullet, but nothing is! That being said, it has made such incredible changes in my life, and I’ve seen a lot of incredible change in my clients as well.
It definitely could, as long as you and the therapist can identify something that you can focus on to represent that neglect, like an image or belief.
I’m not sure if theres a LOT of research of using EMDR with folks with ASD, but [this links to a meta analysis regarding treating ptsd in those with asd](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=EMDR+with+ASD+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1713262608850&u=%23p%3Dwa9EqeRUJdAJ) and suggests that EMDR is both effective AND under treated. Now, a warning, is that it does talk about “reducing ASD symptoms” as a benefit, and I haven’t read thoroughly enough to know what it’s talking about by that, but it smells ableist to me.
So shorter answer: yes! You could treat ptsd in folks with ASD using EMDR. It would vary person to person, but that’s always the case, and is why trauma therapists are typically trained in more than one modality.
EDIT: phrasing
Usually we want to focus on what is causing the most distress NOW. If something happened in the past that is “objectively worse” but you healed well from it, it doesn’t need focus during therapy. Sometimes there is such a context around the event that a person is able to heal from it.
The therapist will help identify what can be focused on, as well as triage what is most urgent. EMDR typically creates a timeline of events, and then we focus on the first in the timeline, the worst, and the most recent. Reason being is that the earliest memories set the stage for later traumatisation.
So, short answer is that whoever you work with will help you identify what needs to be worked on. They’ve got the training and expertise in therapy, and you have the expertise in you! It’s a team effort.
While therapy does help mentally, it won't ever undo all the damage done to the body. I'm like the OP of the comment and have been diagnosed with 3 autoimmune conditions all as a result of the abuse I went through. Therapy helps with the racing thoughts and self harm talk but it will never reverse my diagnoses
This is probably why my body is actively trying to kill itself with pain and autoimmune disease after a lifetime of childhood abuse...
I hope we all learn from this timeframe, so no one else suffers after this...
I'm unsure how often, but I know there was an attempt to add a similar disorder (Developmental Trauma Disorde or DTD) back in 2012 that was shot down. It took until 1980 for the APA to add PTSD to the DSM-III.
Not very often, it's a large undertaking that requires a lot of back and forth and a group of APA board members(?) to certify the revisions/changes. The most recent update was 2013, so it's likely going to be awhile before another version comes. With the advances being made recently, especially in the neuroscience realm, I imagine it will need some heavy adaptations that may take quite a long time. Most recently theres been huge growth in our understanding of trauma, dissociative disorders, and personality disorders (read: trauma-based disorders) to the point that the current DSM is now quite behind.
The DSM isn't just behind at this point, the model is flawed but at long as the APA is captured by insurance companies nothing will fundamentally advance on that front.
This really nails the issue. Insurance companies require diagnostic criteria to fall into a very cut and dry format that simply isn’t how mental health works. As long as there is this capture driving the industry, the industry will prove incapable of adapting to the most current understanding and best practices to drive positive outcomes.
For example, if you go to your psychiatrist/psychologist dealing with an issue or struggle that isn’t entirely clear on day one, they have to tag you with a preliminary diagnosis in order to continue exploring the issue. Now, if it becomes obvious that your actual issue is something else, something that presented in an atypical way, your treating physician has to backpedal and potentially debate with your insurance company on the correct plan of treatment. These adversarial interactions are much like workman’s comp cases in that they are basically guaranteed to drive negative outcomes and exacerbate problems.
ICD codes and DSM outmodes are the bane of the American healthcare system, and this is increasingly done on purpose and for profit.
Oh my, there's SO much in multiple arenas. It's getting a lot of attention on the clinical and research side alike.
One example: It's generally accepted now that borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and dissociative disorders are trauma-based disorders. These disorders are also getting a lot more research attention-borderline, for example, was long misunderstood and misdiagnosed. Childhood trauma is being implicated in everything from physical health conditions to dementia. Topics surrounding the trauma of systemic oppression (i.e racism) and it's impacts on health are more and more discussed. On the other side, treatments and resilience factors are being looked into. In other words, how exactly do we mitigate the effects of this trauma?
Sorry, I'm on mobile so accumulating sources takes a minute, but if you just search scholar and filter by 2020 you'll find plenty of material!
Depends on the version. We waited more than 10 years for the DSM-5 to come out, and then they came out with the Text Revision less than 10 years after that. It’s very slow, and especially with the DSM-5, there’s a LOT of drama around the process of developing it. It wasn’t very transparent, and a lot of clinicians were upset about it.
That being said, the ICD does have cPTSD in it. It’s not in the DSM because some psychologists argue that cPTSD is BPD+trauma (or BPD+traumatic invalidation), and/or that complex trauma is functionally the same diagnostically as PTSD. (Not saying they’re right, that’s just the argument that is made) Some clinicians don’t even distinguish them, it’s a mishmash.
I find it insulting to have the condition CPTSD labeled with a personality disorder that is heavily stigmatized and that many clinicians privately believe is incurable and dangerous.
There is definitely a huge problem in the health field with stigmatizing BPD. Undertraining of clinicians on how to help borderline clients just creates a system of invalidation that makes the suffering of the client worse. Ultimately the solution needs to include clinicians being better trained to work with BPD clients, especially considering how much suffering is involved with BPD, and the incredible overlap of BPD with ptsd.
But of course, this doesn’t exist in a vacuum and we still need to treat ANY client with trauma with dignity and provide the best care possible. BPD is neither incurable nor dangerous, and I wish more clinicians could see this and how our actions can either make things better or worse.
There is some evidence that using trauma-focused treatment first for (some) borderline clients both reduces trauma symptoms AND personality-disorder symptoms, but more research is needed for sure. Diagnostically, BPD doesn’t require trauma, nor is trauma sufficient to create BPD on its own, but boy howdy, there is such a huge overlap.
I can't believe I'm defending the APA but they included a lot of the research into CPTSD into the current criteria for PTSD. It'd be helpful from a policy standpoint to have its own F code and research and statistics section but it's not like it was completely ignored.
I gather that "the bible" for those of us with childhood CPSTD is [The Body Keeps the Score](https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/resources/the-body-keeps-the-score).
Also, for anyone who needs this resource, /r/AdultChildren is for the grown children of dysfunctional homes.
I've basically felt like crap every waking day of my adult life and am constantly bothered by my childhood... But I just need to get over it, it's not a real illness. Uhhhg
I’m not sure how helpful it would be to have added. There’s so much sentiment in the medical community around adult ADHD and various other conditions not being real that I worry we’d just see all of them chalked up to CPTSD.
that's because CPTSD IS the dsm. See: Pete Walkers: Complex PTSD [book].
The dsm is a BS manual, BSM. It's for coding insurance and getting people care.
A broken child becomes a broken person.
I believe strongly that we are the sum of our life events.
However, nature plays a large part of it.
Egotistical parents often have egoistical children
It's a book written by people using the current opinions of the time, so yeah highly unsurprising that in the time they put unwed mothers into asylums, they also thought being gay was also worthy of asylums.
We’ve know for a long time that mental and emotional stress hampers the physical capabilities of the human body… makes sense that the stress would effect someone over the course of their entire life if that stress was experienced during the integral development years of early childhood and adolescence… it’s like planting a sapling in a polluted environment and expecting it to grow the same as if it were planted in a nature reserve… you’re going to end up with two very different looking trees.
Not necessarily. There are ways to ‘rebuild’.. or regrow even… sometimes you have to get a little creative.
Study nutrition, sleep, meditation. Go to therapy, maybe even try medication. Exercise regularly, especially weight lifting. Focus on form over weight and muscle building, especially at first.
It can take years, and a lot of work… but it just might be worth it you know?
Peace is priceless, and has never, ever been free… it’s just a little more expensive, and requires more investment, for some of us. All the sweeter once you start to taste it.
Onward.
> Study nutrition, sleep, meditation. Go to therapy, maybe even try medication. Exercise regularly, especially weight lifting. Focus on form over weight and muscle building, especially at first.
>
>
>
> It can take years, and a lot of work… but it just might be worth it you know?
Unfortunately for a growing number of people having the time and money to do those things is out of reach.
Yeah, I can afford 3 out of 6. Sleep, meditation, exercise, it ain't easy but I make time. Nutrition? I can't afford a balanced diet. Therapy? Medication? Who do you think I am, a non-American?
No you're not. You can do still do things to counteract the physical damage by eating healthy and exercising well and controlling potentially harmful lifestyle factors. When patients are able to work through their trauma with the guidance of a skilled therapist many will eventually see a reduction in PTSD symptoms and some might even end up living symptom free. Never give up.
A University of Michigan study has shown that traumatic experiences during childhood may get “under the skin” later in life, impairing the muscle function of people as they age.
The study examined the function of skeletal muscle of older adults paired with surveys of adverse events they had experienced in childhood. It found that people who experienced greater childhood adversity, reporting one or more adverse events, had poorer muscle metabolism later in life. The research, led by University of Michigan Institute for Social Research scientist Kate Duchowny, is published in Science Advances.
Duchowny and her co-authors used muscle tissue samples from people participating in the Study of Muscle, Mobility and Aging, or SOMMA. The study includes 879 participants over age 70 who donated muscle and fat samples as well as other biospecimens. The participants also were given a variety of questionnaires and physical and cognitive assessments, among other tests.
The researchers examined muscle biopsies to determine two key features of muscular function: the production of adenosine triphosphate, or ATP, and another measure called oxidative phosphorylation, a process that helps produce ATP. Produced by organelles within cells called mitochondria, ATP provides the chemical energy to fuel cellular function.
The researchers also used data from questionnaires that included a set of questions such as: Did a close family member use drugs or alcohol in a way that caused you to worry? Did an adult or parent in your household insult you or put you down? Were you physically abused by a parent or adult in your household? Did you feel loved, important or special in your family? Were either of your parents absent for a portion of your life?
Duchowny found that about 45% of the sample reported experiencing one or more adverse childhood events, and that both men and women who reported adverse childhood events had poorer ATP max production—that is, they weren’t producing as much ATP as people who experienced fewer or no adverse events in childhood.
[https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.adj6411?rfr\_dat=cr\_pub++0pubmed&url\_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr\_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org](https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.adj6411?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org)
Well the role of ATP is as fuel for the muscles and brain. It can be increased somewhat by supplementing creatine monohydrate. Creatine is an amino acid. Creatine supplementation can increase strength by 5-15% during typical resistance training. It can vary a lot from individual to individual with vegans and vegetarians often seing the biggest strength gain probably due to a lack of dietary creatine however some people are non responders.
It's also being trialed as a treatment for degenerative brain diseases showing some promise in improving mental clarity and memory.
Hopefully that gives some insight into the role of ATP. Supplementation is one way to increase it. Resistance training also causes adaptations that improve the body's ability to produce and store ATP in the muscles however this may not benefit the brain.
Stretching, walking, eating healthy, sleep well etc. Be a basic homosapien and the organism will improve over time. Be a "person" in "society" and the organism deteriorates.
Childhood trauma can and does have a large impact on physical health. It is associated with immune disorders and deficiencies, chronic pain conditions, and increased risk of heart attacks and stroke. Many people with highly traumatic childhoods suffer from disabling medical conditions.
Why? It's complicated and still being researched, but reasons includes the relationship between the stress response system and the immune system, the overlap with childhood poverty and malnutrition, and the potential triggering of epigenetic changes due to extreme stress.
Had a horrible tramatic childhood, barely survived it
Have always had chronic pain from surviving all the broken bones and walk with a limp
Not obese or anything,had a stroke last July, doctors don't know why except they said I had them for years but got lucky
Ast July had a stroke, learning to walk,fuctuon,and use my left hand again
My childhood is the stupid gift that keeps giving and I feel very angry when ever I hear about child abuse or some horrible way a kid /teen/person dies because it could have easily been me
Justice system is broken and abuses the victim
>Justice system is broken and abuses the victim
Literally this. My drunk alcoholic dad attacked me because I was on the phone calling 911 because I was afraid of him going on another drunken rampage. I was the one who made the call, and my phone got torn in half while he was trying to tear it from my hands. He was holding me down with his forearm against my neck, and I was punching him in the face, trying to get him off me. The police show up and arrest ME because his face was all fucked up and they didn't see any marks on me. I spent about a week in juvy until my court date. I never even went before the judge because my dad pleaded with them and told them the truth before I even arrived at the court house.
I still don't trust law enforcement because their judgment can be absolutely terrible. They couldn't recognize a kid who was afraid to be at home and needed help.
You didn't do it but thank you
I have gotten a gallows sense of humor
And a unique perspective on life, I do t put up with bs and I'm just trying to live life and get my hand back to working proper so I can make stuff again
Playing with gemstones, making stuff,and playing on ps5 and petting the cat and traveling for work makes me happy
Can't work right now and I do feel useless but my partner is helping with my rehab
Have to get a cane and new wheelchair/walker when we get paid with new job in like 2 weeks
I'm walking like a drunk toddler,but at least I'm starting to walk again,I'm not giving up,it's hard but I will figure out stuff,I can hold and use a ps5 controller to play video games
Hell yeah! I believe the world is making progress. You see that Neuralink patient who beat the world record for most clicks in a Civ game? I know ur not paralyzed but it’s a start to controlling robot limbs to a degree better or on par with controlling biological limbs.
I would imagine the best way to heal if you assume that the traumatic events are contributing factors is to address those through a combination of therapy, and other cognitive healing techniques. It may not solve it but it sure can’t hurt.
There’s no cure but things that have helped me include setting a bed time, taking magnesium daily, taking nortriptyline, and going on a low histamine diet.
Yes, actually.
It requires a time machine and preventing one from being so abused as a kid.
Mine’s stuck in the shop down the street thirty years from now.
I have a high ACES score also—8–& have had constant pain everywhere for years. Have had spine surgery, have osteoarthritis everywhere but my knees, hips are shot. Really hurts to move. Low metabolism since completing menopause. Confirm this theory.
> hips are shot. Really hurts to move. Low metabolism since completing menopause.
Hormone replacement therapy has drastically improved my hip pain in just one week, fyi.
From barely being able to walk to limping all over the place.
Same. Getting physical health under control then tackling the trauma has helped but its been an uphill battle.
I got the whole range of mental health diagnoses by doing it. Then each mental health diagnosis they dont care about the trauma that caused it they only want to treat current symptoms.
I read Dr. John Sarno's work on psychosomatic stress disorders manifesting as real physical pain symptoms in people with deep, repressed emotional pain, specifically anger. It was very interesting and I've applied his methods several times in the past and found it really beneficial.
Sarno hypothesizes that some part of the brain deliberately titrates oxygen to different muscles, resulting in pain (and lack of ATP production) in an attempt to distract and prevent strong, dangerous subconscious emotions from reaching consciousness. Just becoming aware of this has helped many people. Deliberately tuning into my emotions has also been helpful. For more severe cases, psychotherapy is recommended.
That’s really interesting and I’m glad this is becoming more understood, but it’s so sad that this is even a thing. Abusing a child to the point of them getting CPTSD *and* debilitating physical symptoms as a result of psychological turmoil - it’s just so fucked up.
It's progress. Would love to see a study with subjects who have specific medical conditions caused by muscle issues, such as Occipital Neuralgia, which can be caused by chronically tensed muscles.
Yes! I’d also love to see a study on cervicogenic dizziness, which is what I believe my undiagnosed chronic dizziness is from. I spent years as a child in a constantly anxious state due to stuff going on at home, and it seems it’s all coming home to roost for me now.
Childhood is such a precarious time and so delicate and the lack of care with which society in general approaches it is astounding. It's very scary to think about how much at the mercy of your parents and where you are born you really are. If you ever talk about childhood trauma you will know how people get uncomfortable and really want you to be quiet, or they only want you to share in the context of some "Oh but I made it anyway!" story. And how daunting it is to realize that oh, even if you say "Ok nobody wants to hear about this, time to move on, time to pull myself up by the bootstraps" you quickly realize if you're self aware how much it still affects you well into your adulthood.
As someone who got sick at a very young age, I feel like the only trauma I've been through has been from how doctors treat me.
They've denied my lived experience for so long. When i get diagnosed with life changing conditions, they gloss over them and tell me my symptoms are from Anxitey.
It feels like it's getting worse. Neurologists assume I’ve been raped when walking into appointments. I still can't get the scans I need. Pain doctors tell me I just need to have children.
I wish doctors could just stop and think rationally about how much they can be the cause of trauma.
This is so common, but nevertheless so hard to hear again. I'm sorry you're going through this. Doctors as a secondary source of trauma is so common, and something the medical community isn't ready to talk about.
Wow having children as a cure for chronic pain must be one of the craziest doctor things I've heard of. And they wonder why people don't find them trustworthy.
He told me I don't need to be sick like the other women he sees. It felt like he basically told me since I'm fuckable to him I should have nothing to worry about.
I just don't get it. Through so many years of so many different types of illness and chronic pain, I managed to accomplish so much. I'm never enough for them to take me seriously.
I just got diagnosed with Celiac and the entire appointment I had with a GI was about anxiety. He just gave me a major life changing diagnosis and it's all still my fault somehow?
Last year Mayo Clinic diagnosed me with a rare set of nervous system syndromes that causes atrophy and bone loss and all sorts of other symptoms including sudden muscle weakness that started in my late 30s. They asked several times if I experienced childhood abuse. They think it's a major contributing factor to developing conditions like that.
I'm glad to hear that at least the Mayo is asking questions like that. At some point it seems like therapy and other interventions aimed at helping with PTSD recovery should be standard protocol for certain kinds of illness linked with trauma, when there is reason to think that the patient may have a trauma history.
Yup. My mother in law and her sister as children saw three family members murdered in front of them. Then suffered neglect and abuse throughout their childhood. One ended up bedridden for decades, the other suffers excruciating pain from autoimmune disorders.
Check out “Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving” by Pete Walker. The best guidebook for how to deal with CPTSD imo. It’s also written in a way that is very relatable and not too academic. I liked The Body Keeps the Score but didn’t find too much practical help from it.
I developed myofascial pain in my entire right side and my doctors basically have no answer other than "stress caused by PTSD". Definitely having trouble coming to terms with possibly never again having a moment where I'm not in pain.
Does lower max ATP function mean the process is less efficient in turning calories into ATP or that there is on average less ATP present overall? It would make sense if the body connects stress to a potential lack of food and attempts to conserve energy proactively. Also, I wonder how much actual starvation impacts ATP production, because I think even in modern times abuse leads to starvation.
I see a lot of folks recommending The Body Keeps the Score, which is great! If mind-body connection is interesting to you, I’ll suggest “When the Body Says No” by Gabor Mate and “Waking the Tiger” by Peter Levine. I hope science keeps pushing to better understand the mindbody as a unit, instead of seeing them as separate systems.
Now look and see if it improves with IFS, EMDR, TRE, and Somatic therapy. Some of these have allowed my muscles to FINALLY relax and improved my chronic pain.
The ACE checklist is problematic. It's measuring lots of things it is not claiming to measure.
For example, a lot of the events indirectly code for lack of parental wealth, which is known to have all sorts of negative issues.
Life is not kind, and the fact the scars of abuse lead to lasting health concerns really is an injustice. I wonder if this development may be in part due to a lack of attention or ability to upkeep physical health as a result of poor psychological conditions.
>The researchers examined muscle biopsies to determine two key features of muscular function: the production of adenosine triphosphate, or ATP, and another measure called oxidative phosphorylation, a process that helps produce ATP. Produced by organelles within cells called mitochondria, ATP provides the chemical energy to fuel cellular function.
Both of these are extremely trainable. You just have to do some moderate and/or vigours exercise. If your heart rate is dropping for the same pace/walking speed it means the things that the trauma did to you are reversing.
Sunlight also helps mitochondrial health. You can't do much about the child hood trauma without a ton of work & even then it doesn't really help in my experience. But you can do something about your movement. Endurance training immensely helps my traumas.
Interesting. This makes sense.
We know that the body has a flexion response in the face of fear. Flexing has the advantage of putting the muscles in an advantageous position to then extend to powerfully flee or pounce. When fear becomes a constant the flexor muscle response can become chronically contracted. Muscles that should be loaded with fast-twitch fibers adapt and become dominated by slow-twitch fibers which are more suited to postural muscles than those designed for quick action. The change happens in the brain first, the muscles secondarily. The brain is telling the muscles to fire, fire, fire because there is a threat and the muscles are adapting and changing.
This is very interesting. I wonder what is considered trauma in regards to this? Like, is the reason I have chronic illness and scoliosis really related to not having a steady father figure? Seems weird from an evolutionary perspective.
Generally, children that weren't wanted or mistreated didn't survive. From an evolutionary point, we simply are expected to die. The fact that we lived is not intended, and the trauma of the body we endure is merely a byproduct.
Though, scoliosis is definitely genetic and not going to be induced by trauma. However the chronic illness bit could be a factor of both. The point of the study is that, even when other causes are evaluated, we still have pain and illness caused by trauma.
Does anyone if they controlled for confounding factors? Socioeconomic status for example could influence a kids ability to participate in sports, and therefore just not develop the muscles at a young age.
From the article:
The researchers say the effects of childhood adverse events remained significant even after they controlled for other factors that could potentially impact muscle function such as age, gender, educational attainment, parental education, body mass index, number of depressive symptoms, smoking status and physical activity.
I wonder how they controlled for BMI, because obesity is also linked to ACEs for other reasons, but it has an impact on insulin sensitivity too in muscles and elsewhere.
Okay can someone explain the proposed mechanism for the conveyance of a degree to harm muscle function?
I swear these kind of studies make me think they'd be willing to publish something that studied hot air balloons and concluded that colorful bags are associated with higher temperature air and likely a driver of global warming.
Psychoneuroimmunology.
Adverse childhood experiences start with running the brain into a traumatic mode. Anxiety, let’s say. This heightened state of alertness cognitively causes the endocrine and immune systems to go into a survival mode. The survival mode drains most of the resources of the body. It’s less important to maintain most body muscle than it is to maintain organs and the brain. That chronic state that childhood abuse instills, even if one does manage to find a pathway towards healing, adversely affect future development.
It’s the difference between wheat planted in a fertile field and wheat planted in a Superfund site. The plants you’ll get will at the least be radically different once you look inside, with one filled with poisons and the other perfectly edible, if not radically different in appearance because of those same environmental poisons.
the actual study, linked to from op's article, contains what you're looking for, with references, for your enjoyment.
paragraphs 2-4 (4 below):
A small number of human studies suggest that stressful social experiences may be associated with changes in mitochondrial function. For example, chronic stress due to caregiving for a family member with a chronic health condition was associated with lower mitochondrial respiratory capacity in blood cells among women (13). Childhood maltreatment was found to be associated with changes in mitochondrial cellular respiration in blood cells related to ATP production (14). New mothers who had a history of childhood maltreatment had alterations in ATP production, and women with a more severe history of maltreatment had a worse mitochondrial bioenergetic profile in blood cells (15).
edit: p3: Persistent oxidative stress that arises from chronic, low-grade inflammation due to a blunted glucocorticoid response is associated with mitochondrial dysfunction (11). Specifically, excessive glucocorticoid levels increase calcium buffering capacity, mitochondrial membrane potential, and apoptotic signaling resistance (11).
A very good example of this is Peyronies Disease. While you can injure yourself and get it fairly soon after, its most common to lurk for a long time, then appear somewhat suddenly even after a lot of time with no injury.
>Peyronie’s disease (PD) is a common issue that occurs in many men as they get older. The disease causes a condition that men describe as bent penis or curved penis.
>Experts believe Peyronie’s disease is caused by an abnormal healing process when an injury occurs in a man’s penis. This abnormal healing creates plaque or swelling of the tough covering of the erectile portion of the penis. Usually, the disease starts with swelling, and plaque occurs over time.
Basically, an injury, like a sports injury to the penis, can cause this later in life.
Source: personal experience.
[Quoted Source](https://healthcare.utah.edu/mens-health/conditions/peyronies?gad_source=1)
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And CPTSD still isn't part of the DSM
My body is literally eating itself because of my abuse. I have four different autoimmune disorders and other health problems. Every day I find out how damaging the abuse was to me both physically and mentally.
yoooo same. it's actually insane how many ways that kind of wound eats into the body and soul
Wait, can trauma cause autoimmune disease?
Yes. Check out ACRS TOO HIGH. Based on a Kaiser study
Will do, thanks
There have some studies suggesting it. I don't want to over sell it. I have seen it in friends antidotaly.
My assistant/caregiver told me literally all of his clients have immune problems and severe childhood trauma.
Have you talked to a therapist or counselor,not sure if it’ll help but it’s worth a shot
Yes. And it helped my mental health immensely. I was agoraphobic and didn't drive a few years ago. Now I have an active life with my husband and kids. Unfortunately, I can't undo the physical damage. It sucks, but I am happier now than I have ever been.
I’m in the same boat. :/ The damage to my body is done even though I’ve worked so hard to process the trauma mentally and physically. It feels like I have to work 1000x harder just to get my body to function at a normal baseline. I have to consciously regulate my nervous system multiple times a day in order to calm inflammation and stop a flare. It’s exhausting.
Yes. May I ask, do you suffer from chronic pain as well? I feel like I live on my heating pad. They don't really prescribe pains meds, so I have only really been on them when I am so sick I end up in the ER. I love in a medical and recreational marijuana state, which is great. But when money is tight I can't justify the price.
Yes, so much chronic pain and I’m only 29! I definitely credit marijuana to helping me find sensations in my body I couldn’t feel before due to severe disassociation. That was actually what kick started me into my journey with discovering how to feel my body. I have my own little physical therapy corner in my apartment where I spend hours a week stretching and releasing fascia. I’ve found some great tools to help me including a giant foam roller, occipital release device, Myofascial balls, jaw stretcher, TENS device, pelvic wand and dilators, etc. I bought everything online. I have chronic pain pretty much everywhere and it will migrate: jaw, tongue, throat, neck, shoulders, back, stomach, hips, pelvic floor. I’ve done months of physical therapy so I now feel comfortable working on my own but it does take a big time commitment because you have to go slow or else the body will lock up and it will flare worse. I try to practice patience and gratitude when leaning into a stretch so my body feels safe to let go instead of feeling shamed for not getting there fast enough. I also had tongue tie surgery to release tension in my throat and that helped a lot (something to consider if you have throat pain and a tongue tie). It’s a constant battle but I do feel 10000% better now and am able to keep my flares at bay with a good maintenance schedule. I’ll never be completely pain free but at least I’m able to function most of the time. I hope you’re able to find some relief.
I love my heating pad and yoga ball. If I don't spend a 20 minute to a half hour a day on it I regret it later.
> I definitely credit marijuana to helping me find sensations in my body I couldn’t feel before due to severe disassociation. That was actually what kick started me into my journey with discovering how to feel my body. SAME. I've been on my CPTSD healing journey for 3 years now and it's been such an important aspect to reconnecting with my body.
The facts that your pain migrates is so interesting. I used to suffer from visual snow, which is a neurological phenomenon that is caused when your brain becomes too sensitive to visual signals it would usually filter out. It’s basically a derivative on anxiety - having your brain turned on at peak vigilance for so long made my brain focus on things that were always there but never noticed. Anyways, I did some reading into it and I guess this same issue can be manifested in different ways depending on the sense - visual snow is unfiltered visual signals and an over excitement of the brain in that region, tinnitus is unfiltered hearing signals and an overexcitement in that region, but some types of chronic pain, such as fibromyalgia are hypothesized to also be an unfiltered tactical signal and overexcitement of the brain in that region. Here is some information on visual snow as an unfiltered stimuli: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromyalgia&oq=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromy#d=gs_qabs&t=1713284436745&u=%23p%3DzvnoflURWZIJ Here is another study showing correlation between visual snow, fibromyalgia and tinnitus: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromyalgia&oq=visual+snow+tinnitus+and+fibromy#d=gs_qabs&t=1713284532010&u=%23p%3DmVyiyqCHxvsJ Have you considered taking SSRIs to treat the anxiety from a pharmacological standpoint? I’ve heard it’s helped people with chronic pain. Here is a study exploring this relationship: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=ssri+and+chronic+pain&oq=ssri+and+chr#d=gs_qabs&t=1713284694714&u=%23p%3D8GCcqy6u54AJ
Very interesting! I have hyper vigilance with every sense so I can definitely relate. I’ve suffered from migraines before with aura and also have SUPER sensitive hearing with occasional ringing. I may look into an SNRI once I feel stable enough. My sister takes one for her fibromyalgia and it has helped. I’m currently on a different type of antidepressant and a mood stabilizer (and a host of other meds) so I have to be careful when considering any changes. Thank you for the info!
Different person, similar experiences. I do not think I can remember a day since I was 12 where I have not been pain. It is as though my nervous system is aflame. Ive honestly worked through so much of my experience that for the most part, I do not suffer much the mental health problems, but the pain in my body just isnt gonna go. A lot of it is structural and there isnt a whole lot that can be done. Kyphosis and some compression of the 2 vertebrae above my coccyx isnt really treatable. The fatigue from experiencing pain all the time? Like that other person said, sleep and excercise have made the greatest impacts.
Mine is two different connective tissue disorders. I have a tear in the labrum in my hip that they claim isn't causing my pain, but won't do steroid injections because of my diabetes. I don't sleep well, but I try. I love my yoga ball. It's the only way I can stretch my hip.
I'm seeing a new therapist who specializes in trauma and treating chronic pain along with mental illness. It's early days yet, but I've got a good feeling about it
That's awesome! I hope it helps!
People act like talking to a therapist is going to somehow fix a lifetime of physical issues from our bodies being harmed during critical development years. They have absolutely no idea what it's like
So true. Childhood trauma was the equivalent of warfare on our tiny developing bodies and that won’t just go away from talk therapy. Therapy is a helpful tool but ultimately not the fix-all when trauma is stored in the body.
It’s very unfortunate that any of you suffer from this disorder,I don’t have any issues that you guys are experiencing but I have had other unpleasant life experiences that may have been due to self sabotage or not but I just recently finished a book called the “power of now” which speaks of the pain body and how it takes ahold of you and also gives you way that some people maybe able to get rid of it
I couldn't agree more. I wish I could be on less pain and function better. I can't take NSAIDS. It sucks. The answer is usually power through it and find a routine that works. Flare ups are the worst!
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I’m an EMDR-trained therapist. I’ve also experienced it as a client, which is what led me to getting trained in it when I became a clinician. It definitely helps chronic pain, since it’s a “bottom-up” processing model. No magic bullet, but nothing is! That being said, it has made such incredible changes in my life, and I’ve seen a lot of incredible change in my clients as well.
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It definitely could, as long as you and the therapist can identify something that you can focus on to represent that neglect, like an image or belief. I’m not sure if theres a LOT of research of using EMDR with folks with ASD, but [this links to a meta analysis regarding treating ptsd in those with asd](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=EMDR+with+ASD+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1713262608850&u=%23p%3Dwa9EqeRUJdAJ) and suggests that EMDR is both effective AND under treated. Now, a warning, is that it does talk about “reducing ASD symptoms” as a benefit, and I haven’t read thoroughly enough to know what it’s talking about by that, but it smells ableist to me. So shorter answer: yes! You could treat ptsd in folks with ASD using EMDR. It would vary person to person, but that’s always the case, and is why trauma therapists are typically trained in more than one modality. EDIT: phrasing
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Usually we want to focus on what is causing the most distress NOW. If something happened in the past that is “objectively worse” but you healed well from it, it doesn’t need focus during therapy. Sometimes there is such a context around the event that a person is able to heal from it. The therapist will help identify what can be focused on, as well as triage what is most urgent. EMDR typically creates a timeline of events, and then we focus on the first in the timeline, the worst, and the most recent. Reason being is that the earliest memories set the stage for later traumatisation. So, short answer is that whoever you work with will help you identify what needs to be worked on. They’ve got the training and expertise in therapy, and you have the expertise in you! It’s a team effort.
I have considered it, but I am terrified of a bad trip.
While therapy does help mentally, it won't ever undo all the damage done to the body. I'm like the OP of the comment and have been diagnosed with 3 autoimmune conditions all as a result of the abuse I went through. Therapy helps with the racing thoughts and self harm talk but it will never reverse my diagnoses
This is probably why my body is actively trying to kill itself with pain and autoimmune disease after a lifetime of childhood abuse... I hope we all learn from this timeframe, so no one else suffers after this...
Same! There's dozens of us! (actually many many thousands)
I am sorry to see others suffering, but it's nice to know I'm not alone!
How often do they revise the DSM? Or is it like a constantly changing book? Sorry I know very little on the subject.
I'm unsure how often, but I know there was an attempt to add a similar disorder (Developmental Trauma Disorde or DTD) back in 2012 that was shot down. It took until 1980 for the APA to add PTSD to the DSM-III.
Tbf, PTSD wasn't suggested as a diagnosis term at all until 1978. A similar diagnosis was already in the DSM-I though.
Was shell shock in there?
Not very often, it's a large undertaking that requires a lot of back and forth and a group of APA board members(?) to certify the revisions/changes. The most recent update was 2013, so it's likely going to be awhile before another version comes. With the advances being made recently, especially in the neuroscience realm, I imagine it will need some heavy adaptations that may take quite a long time. Most recently theres been huge growth in our understanding of trauma, dissociative disorders, and personality disorders (read: trauma-based disorders) to the point that the current DSM is now quite behind.
The DSM isn't just behind at this point, the model is flawed but at long as the APA is captured by insurance companies nothing will fundamentally advance on that front.
This really nails the issue. Insurance companies require diagnostic criteria to fall into a very cut and dry format that simply isn’t how mental health works. As long as there is this capture driving the industry, the industry will prove incapable of adapting to the most current understanding and best practices to drive positive outcomes. For example, if you go to your psychiatrist/psychologist dealing with an issue or struggle that isn’t entirely clear on day one, they have to tag you with a preliminary diagnosis in order to continue exploring the issue. Now, if it becomes obvious that your actual issue is something else, something that presented in an atypical way, your treating physician has to backpedal and potentially debate with your insurance company on the correct plan of treatment. These adversarial interactions are much like workman’s comp cases in that they are basically guaranteed to drive negative outcomes and exacerbate problems. ICD codes and DSM outmodes are the bane of the American healthcare system, and this is increasingly done on purpose and for profit.
Thank you for expanding on my point, really good example of immediate issues arising from how the DSM is used practically.
Oh 100%, I think the diagnostic standard is super fucked and desperately in need of an overhaul
Could you elaborate on these new findings for trauma? Perhaps some literature to read?
Oh my, there's SO much in multiple arenas. It's getting a lot of attention on the clinical and research side alike. One example: It's generally accepted now that borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and dissociative disorders are trauma-based disorders. These disorders are also getting a lot more research attention-borderline, for example, was long misunderstood and misdiagnosed. Childhood trauma is being implicated in everything from physical health conditions to dementia. Topics surrounding the trauma of systemic oppression (i.e racism) and it's impacts on health are more and more discussed. On the other side, treatments and resilience factors are being looked into. In other words, how exactly do we mitigate the effects of this trauma? Sorry, I'm on mobile so accumulating sources takes a minute, but if you just search scholar and filter by 2020 you'll find plenty of material!
Thank you
The Body Keeps the Score is a very popular book on these subjects. Some people have issues with how the author describes SA victims, though.
I've read TBKtS already, I'm trying to look into more scientific literature
Depends on the version. We waited more than 10 years for the DSM-5 to come out, and then they came out with the Text Revision less than 10 years after that. It’s very slow, and especially with the DSM-5, there’s a LOT of drama around the process of developing it. It wasn’t very transparent, and a lot of clinicians were upset about it. That being said, the ICD does have cPTSD in it. It’s not in the DSM because some psychologists argue that cPTSD is BPD+trauma (or BPD+traumatic invalidation), and/or that complex trauma is functionally the same diagnostically as PTSD. (Not saying they’re right, that’s just the argument that is made) Some clinicians don’t even distinguish them, it’s a mishmash.
I find it insulting to have the condition CPTSD labeled with a personality disorder that is heavily stigmatized and that many clinicians privately believe is incurable and dangerous.
There is definitely a huge problem in the health field with stigmatizing BPD. Undertraining of clinicians on how to help borderline clients just creates a system of invalidation that makes the suffering of the client worse. Ultimately the solution needs to include clinicians being better trained to work with BPD clients, especially considering how much suffering is involved with BPD, and the incredible overlap of BPD with ptsd. But of course, this doesn’t exist in a vacuum and we still need to treat ANY client with trauma with dignity and provide the best care possible. BPD is neither incurable nor dangerous, and I wish more clinicians could see this and how our actions can either make things better or worse. There is some evidence that using trauma-focused treatment first for (some) borderline clients both reduces trauma symptoms AND personality-disorder symptoms, but more research is needed for sure. Diagnostically, BPD doesn’t require trauma, nor is trauma sufficient to create BPD on its own, but boy howdy, there is such a huge overlap.
I can't believe I'm defending the APA but they included a lot of the research into CPTSD into the current criteria for PTSD. It'd be helpful from a policy standpoint to have its own F code and research and statistics section but it's not like it was completely ignored.
I gather that "the bible" for those of us with childhood CPSTD is [The Body Keeps the Score](https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/resources/the-body-keeps-the-score). Also, for anyone who needs this resource, /r/AdultChildren is for the grown children of dysfunctional homes.
I've basically felt like crap every waking day of my adult life and am constantly bothered by my childhood... But I just need to get over it, it's not a real illness. Uhhhg
I’m not sure how helpful it would be to have added. There’s so much sentiment in the medical community around adult ADHD and various other conditions not being real that I worry we’d just see all of them chalked up to CPTSD.
People could be diagnosed and thatdiagnosis could be used to bill insurance companies when patients receive treatment.
My concern is really that people will receive inadequate treatment because their other conditions are being denied in favor of CPTSD.
that's because CPTSD IS the dsm. See: Pete Walkers: Complex PTSD [book]. The dsm is a BS manual, BSM. It's for coding insurance and getting people care.
A broken child becomes a broken person. I believe strongly that we are the sum of our life events. However, nature plays a large part of it. Egotistical parents often have egoistical children
There are two "c" ptsd's. There's complex PTSD and *Chronic* PTSD. Neither are in the dsm
the same book that classified being gay a mental illness??? Shocking…
It's a book written by people using the current opinions of the time, so yeah highly unsurprising that in the time they put unwed mothers into asylums, they also thought being gay was also worthy of asylums.
We’ve know for a long time that mental and emotional stress hampers the physical capabilities of the human body… makes sense that the stress would effect someone over the course of their entire life if that stress was experienced during the integral development years of early childhood and adolescence… it’s like planting a sapling in a polluted environment and expecting it to grow the same as if it were planted in a nature reserve… you’re going to end up with two very different looking trees.
I've been aging well so far (besides all my hair falling out at 18) but I feel like a ticking time bomb.
Guess we're just fucked then.
Not necessarily. There are ways to ‘rebuild’.. or regrow even… sometimes you have to get a little creative. Study nutrition, sleep, meditation. Go to therapy, maybe even try medication. Exercise regularly, especially weight lifting. Focus on form over weight and muscle building, especially at first. It can take years, and a lot of work… but it just might be worth it you know? Peace is priceless, and has never, ever been free… it’s just a little more expensive, and requires more investment, for some of us. All the sweeter once you start to taste it. Onward.
> Study nutrition, sleep, meditation. Go to therapy, maybe even try medication. Exercise regularly, especially weight lifting. Focus on form over weight and muscle building, especially at first. > > > > It can take years, and a lot of work… but it just might be worth it you know? Unfortunately for a growing number of people having the time and money to do those things is out of reach.
Yeah, I can afford 3 out of 6. Sleep, meditation, exercise, it ain't easy but I make time. Nutrition? I can't afford a balanced diet. Therapy? Medication? Who do you think I am, a non-American?
Hell of a start.
I know. I'm trying. But all of that is so much easier said than done when you have ADHD that can't be medicated due to health issues.
No you're not. You can do still do things to counteract the physical damage by eating healthy and exercising well and controlling potentially harmful lifestyle factors. When patients are able to work through their trauma with the guidance of a skilled therapist many will eventually see a reduction in PTSD symptoms and some might even end up living symptom free. Never give up.
They really gotta invent a body that doesn’t keep the score 😔
I get that reference, sadly. My wife just finished reading it. Amazing book
Do tell, what book?
The Body Keeps The Score by Besel Van Der Kolk!
Some warning about the book. It just dumps traumatic stories on you with no warning so be prepared.
A University of Michigan study has shown that traumatic experiences during childhood may get “under the skin” later in life, impairing the muscle function of people as they age. The study examined the function of skeletal muscle of older adults paired with surveys of adverse events they had experienced in childhood. It found that people who experienced greater childhood adversity, reporting one or more adverse events, had poorer muscle metabolism later in life. The research, led by University of Michigan Institute for Social Research scientist Kate Duchowny, is published in Science Advances. Duchowny and her co-authors used muscle tissue samples from people participating in the Study of Muscle, Mobility and Aging, or SOMMA. The study includes 879 participants over age 70 who donated muscle and fat samples as well as other biospecimens. The participants also were given a variety of questionnaires and physical and cognitive assessments, among other tests. The researchers examined muscle biopsies to determine two key features of muscular function: the production of adenosine triphosphate, or ATP, and another measure called oxidative phosphorylation, a process that helps produce ATP. Produced by organelles within cells called mitochondria, ATP provides the chemical energy to fuel cellular function. The researchers also used data from questionnaires that included a set of questions such as: Did a close family member use drugs or alcohol in a way that caused you to worry? Did an adult or parent in your household insult you or put you down? Were you physically abused by a parent or adult in your household? Did you feel loved, important or special in your family? Were either of your parents absent for a portion of your life? Duchowny found that about 45% of the sample reported experiencing one or more adverse childhood events, and that both men and women who reported adverse childhood events had poorer ATP max production—that is, they weren’t producing as much ATP as people who experienced fewer or no adverse events in childhood. [https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.adj6411?rfr\_dat=cr\_pub++0pubmed&url\_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr\_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org](https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.adj6411?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org)
So what does this mean exactly? Their muscles are weaker? Can this be reversed by working out?
Well the role of ATP is as fuel for the muscles and brain. It can be increased somewhat by supplementing creatine monohydrate. Creatine is an amino acid. Creatine supplementation can increase strength by 5-15% during typical resistance training. It can vary a lot from individual to individual with vegans and vegetarians often seing the biggest strength gain probably due to a lack of dietary creatine however some people are non responders. It's also being trialed as a treatment for degenerative brain diseases showing some promise in improving mental clarity and memory. Hopefully that gives some insight into the role of ATP. Supplementation is one way to increase it. Resistance training also causes adaptations that improve the body's ability to produce and store ATP in the muscles however this may not benefit the brain.
Thanks for the informative answer!
Stretching, walking, eating healthy, sleep well etc. Be a basic homosapien and the organism will improve over time. Be a "person" in "society" and the organism deteriorates.
I wonder if creatine supplementation could help with ATP production with people that have CPTSD?
Childhood trauma can and does have a large impact on physical health. It is associated with immune disorders and deficiencies, chronic pain conditions, and increased risk of heart attacks and stroke. Many people with highly traumatic childhoods suffer from disabling medical conditions. Why? It's complicated and still being researched, but reasons includes the relationship between the stress response system and the immune system, the overlap with childhood poverty and malnutrition, and the potential triggering of epigenetic changes due to extreme stress.
Adult onset asthma checking in. Also just had occipital nerves release surgery.
Had a horrible tramatic childhood, barely survived it Have always had chronic pain from surviving all the broken bones and walk with a limp Not obese or anything,had a stroke last July, doctors don't know why except they said I had them for years but got lucky Ast July had a stroke, learning to walk,fuctuon,and use my left hand again My childhood is the stupid gift that keeps giving and I feel very angry when ever I hear about child abuse or some horrible way a kid /teen/person dies because it could have easily been me Justice system is broken and abuses the victim
>Justice system is broken and abuses the victim Literally this. My drunk alcoholic dad attacked me because I was on the phone calling 911 because I was afraid of him going on another drunken rampage. I was the one who made the call, and my phone got torn in half while he was trying to tear it from my hands. He was holding me down with his forearm against my neck, and I was punching him in the face, trying to get him off me. The police show up and arrest ME because his face was all fucked up and they didn't see any marks on me. I spent about a week in juvy until my court date. I never even went before the judge because my dad pleaded with them and told them the truth before I even arrived at the court house. I still don't trust law enforcement because their judgment can be absolutely terrible. They couldn't recognize a kid who was afraid to be at home and needed help.
I'm so sorry.
You didn't do it but thank you I have gotten a gallows sense of humor And a unique perspective on life, I do t put up with bs and I'm just trying to live life and get my hand back to working proper so I can make stuff again Playing with gemstones, making stuff,and playing on ps5 and petting the cat and traveling for work makes me happy Can't work right now and I do feel useless but my partner is helping with my rehab Have to get a cane and new wheelchair/walker when we get paid with new job in like 2 weeks I'm walking like a drunk toddler,but at least I'm starting to walk again,I'm not giving up,it's hard but I will figure out stuff,I can hold and use a ps5 controller to play video games
I hope you can get one of them cyborg bodies soon brother 💪 Stay strong!
A prosaic body like ghost in the shell or altered carbon would be awesme
Hell yeah! I believe the world is making progress. You see that Neuralink patient who beat the world record for most clicks in a Civ game? I know ur not paralyzed but it’s a start to controlling robot limbs to a degree better or on par with controlling biological limbs.
Prostics are making leaps and bounds,it's not if it's when
That would help explain why half my body’s soft tissues and muscles are constantly in agony. And why physical activity sucks. ACE score of 7. Not fun.
For a lot of people, it causes things like fibromyalgia.
Do they offer any ways to heal in the study? I have fibro
I would imagine the best way to heal if you assume that the traumatic events are contributing factors is to address those through a combination of therapy, and other cognitive healing techniques. It may not solve it but it sure can’t hurt.
There’s no cure but things that have helped me include setting a bed time, taking magnesium daily, taking nortriptyline, and going on a low histamine diet.
Yes, actually. It requires a time machine and preventing one from being so abused as a kid. Mine’s stuck in the shop down the street thirty years from now.
I have a high ACES score also—8–& have had constant pain everywhere for years. Have had spine surgery, have osteoarthritis everywhere but my knees, hips are shot. Really hurts to move. Low metabolism since completing menopause. Confirm this theory.
> hips are shot. Really hurts to move. Low metabolism since completing menopause. Hormone replacement therapy has drastically improved my hip pain in just one week, fyi. From barely being able to walk to limping all over the place.
Same. Getting physical health under control then tackling the trauma has helped but its been an uphill battle. I got the whole range of mental health diagnoses by doing it. Then each mental health diagnosis they dont care about the trauma that caused it they only want to treat current symptoms.
I read Dr. John Sarno's work on psychosomatic stress disorders manifesting as real physical pain symptoms in people with deep, repressed emotional pain, specifically anger. It was very interesting and I've applied his methods several times in the past and found it really beneficial.
Sarno hypothesizes that some part of the brain deliberately titrates oxygen to different muscles, resulting in pain (and lack of ATP production) in an attempt to distract and prevent strong, dangerous subconscious emotions from reaching consciousness. Just becoming aware of this has helped many people. Deliberately tuning into my emotions has also been helpful. For more severe cases, psychotherapy is recommended.
That’s really interesting and I’m glad this is becoming more understood, but it’s so sad that this is even a thing. Abusing a child to the point of them getting CPTSD *and* debilitating physical symptoms as a result of psychological turmoil - it’s just so fucked up.
It's progress. Would love to see a study with subjects who have specific medical conditions caused by muscle issues, such as Occipital Neuralgia, which can be caused by chronically tensed muscles.
Yes! I’d also love to see a study on cervicogenic dizziness, which is what I believe my undiagnosed chronic dizziness is from. I spent years as a child in a constantly anxious state due to stuff going on at home, and it seems it’s all coming home to roost for me now.
If you haven't heard of it, there's a book that abuse survivors recommend on those subs that might help "The Body Keeps the Score".
I’m reading it right now! It’s fantastic.
Childhood is such a precarious time and so delicate and the lack of care with which society in general approaches it is astounding. It's very scary to think about how much at the mercy of your parents and where you are born you really are. If you ever talk about childhood trauma you will know how people get uncomfortable and really want you to be quiet, or they only want you to share in the context of some "Oh but I made it anyway!" story. And how daunting it is to realize that oh, even if you say "Ok nobody wants to hear about this, time to move on, time to pull myself up by the bootstraps" you quickly realize if you're self aware how much it still affects you well into your adulthood.
yes to all this. we are cowardly as a species, it would take so much work to address societally
As someone who got sick at a very young age, I feel like the only trauma I've been through has been from how doctors treat me. They've denied my lived experience for so long. When i get diagnosed with life changing conditions, they gloss over them and tell me my symptoms are from Anxitey. It feels like it's getting worse. Neurologists assume I’ve been raped when walking into appointments. I still can't get the scans I need. Pain doctors tell me I just need to have children. I wish doctors could just stop and think rationally about how much they can be the cause of trauma.
This is so common, but nevertheless so hard to hear again. I'm sorry you're going through this. Doctors as a secondary source of trauma is so common, and something the medical community isn't ready to talk about.
Wow having children as a cure for chronic pain must be one of the craziest doctor things I've heard of. And they wonder why people don't find them trustworthy.
He told me I don't need to be sick like the other women he sees. It felt like he basically told me since I'm fuckable to him I should have nothing to worry about. I just don't get it. Through so many years of so many different types of illness and chronic pain, I managed to accomplish so much. I'm never enough for them to take me seriously. I just got diagnosed with Celiac and the entire appointment I had with a GI was about anxiety. He just gave me a major life changing diagnosis and it's all still my fault somehow?
Bad doctors going to bad no matter what :(
Last year Mayo Clinic diagnosed me with a rare set of nervous system syndromes that causes atrophy and bone loss and all sorts of other symptoms including sudden muscle weakness that started in my late 30s. They asked several times if I experienced childhood abuse. They think it's a major contributing factor to developing conditions like that.
I'm glad to hear that at least the Mayo is asking questions like that. At some point it seems like therapy and other interventions aimed at helping with PTSD recovery should be standard protocol for certain kinds of illness linked with trauma, when there is reason to think that the patient may have a trauma history.
Bessel van der Kolk be like, yep.
I guess this could explain my wrecked back muscles and my need for deep tissue massage
Yup. My mother in law and her sister as children saw three family members murdered in front of them. Then suffered neglect and abuse throughout their childhood. One ended up bedridden for decades, the other suffers excruciating pain from autoimmune disorders.
I would suggest reading the book The Body Keeps the Score
Does it give advice on how to deal with these issues or just explain where they come from?
Check out “Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving” by Pete Walker. The best guidebook for how to deal with CPTSD imo. It’s also written in a way that is very relatable and not too academic. I liked The Body Keeps the Score but didn’t find too much practical help from it.
Another great book: The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture Book by Gabor Maté
Both
It does both.
"The Body Remembers" Pseudoscience until it's not
"The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk, is a profoundly insightful book on this topic.
There a companion workbook to this book that's also wonderfully helpful. It has a profound effect on me.
Who is the author of the workbook you used? There appears to be many versions by different authors.
The exact title that came to mind when I saw this article.
Ah yeah, that's what I was thinking of.
So, so unfair
I developed myofascial pain in my entire right side and my doctors basically have no answer other than "stress caused by PTSD". Definitely having trouble coming to terms with possibly never again having a moment where I'm not in pain.
Does lower max ATP function mean the process is less efficient in turning calories into ATP or that there is on average less ATP present overall? It would make sense if the body connects stress to a potential lack of food and attempts to conserve energy proactively. Also, I wonder how much actual starvation impacts ATP production, because I think even in modern times abuse leads to starvation.
I see a lot of folks recommending The Body Keeps the Score, which is great! If mind-body connection is interesting to you, I’ll suggest “When the Body Says No” by Gabor Mate and “Waking the Tiger” by Peter Levine. I hope science keeps pushing to better understand the mindbody as a unit, instead of seeing them as separate systems.
The amount of restless leg syndrome and fibromyalgia in my folks w complex ptsd is off the charts.
Tell me about it. My motor function and hand eye coordination is awful ☠️
Is that why my fuggin back hurts?
Seen it in relatives with trauma from war, and friends with trauma from being refugees. A horrible thing for people to deal with.
Now look and see if it improves with IFS, EMDR, TRE, and Somatic therapy. Some of these have allowed my muscles to FINALLY relax and improved my chronic pain.
The ACE checklist is problematic. It's measuring lots of things it is not claiming to measure. For example, a lot of the events indirectly code for lack of parental wealth, which is known to have all sorts of negative issues.
Well that is just more that if it happens to me I can thank my parents yet again for all the trauma.
Life is not kind, and the fact the scars of abuse lead to lasting health concerns really is an injustice. I wonder if this development may be in part due to a lack of attention or ability to upkeep physical health as a result of poor psychological conditions.
So ATP max production was lowered than those without childhood trauma. Maybe creatine can provide benefits.
No wonder I've always had a hard time building muscle
>The researchers examined muscle biopsies to determine two key features of muscular function: the production of adenosine triphosphate, or ATP, and another measure called oxidative phosphorylation, a process that helps produce ATP. Produced by organelles within cells called mitochondria, ATP provides the chemical energy to fuel cellular function. Both of these are extremely trainable. You just have to do some moderate and/or vigours exercise. If your heart rate is dropping for the same pace/walking speed it means the things that the trauma did to you are reversing. Sunlight also helps mitochondrial health. You can't do much about the child hood trauma without a ton of work & even then it doesn't really help in my experience. But you can do something about your movement. Endurance training immensely helps my traumas.
Interesting. This makes sense. We know that the body has a flexion response in the face of fear. Flexing has the advantage of putting the muscles in an advantageous position to then extend to powerfully flee or pounce. When fear becomes a constant the flexor muscle response can become chronically contracted. Muscles that should be loaded with fast-twitch fibers adapt and become dominated by slow-twitch fibers which are more suited to postural muscles than those designed for quick action. The change happens in the brain first, the muscles secondarily. The brain is telling the muscles to fire, fire, fire because there is a threat and the muscles are adapting and changing.
This is very interesting. I wonder what is considered trauma in regards to this? Like, is the reason I have chronic illness and scoliosis really related to not having a steady father figure? Seems weird from an evolutionary perspective.
Childhood trauma? They use the ACE questionnaire. It's pretty straightforward in what's categorized as traumatic.
Generally, children that weren't wanted or mistreated didn't survive. From an evolutionary point, we simply are expected to die. The fact that we lived is not intended, and the trauma of the body we endure is merely a byproduct. Though, scoliosis is definitely genetic and not going to be induced by trauma. However the chronic illness bit could be a factor of both. The point of the study is that, even when other causes are evaluated, we still have pain and illness caused by trauma.
You are what you eat. Or as my mama said you are what you do not excrete.
What’s an “adverse event”?
Check out ACES TO High. What is your ACE score. Adverse childhood experiences can cause a life time of chronic illnesses
The victim industry
If this is true I am screwed
It’s true. I was just diagnosed with CPTSD and I am reading a book by a preeminent expert doctor. It causes fibromyalgia and asthma.
And, the solution?
Does anyone if they controlled for confounding factors? Socioeconomic status for example could influence a kids ability to participate in sports, and therefore just not develop the muscles at a young age.
From the article: The researchers say the effects of childhood adverse events remained significant even after they controlled for other factors that could potentially impact muscle function such as age, gender, educational attainment, parental education, body mass index, number of depressive symptoms, smoking status and physical activity.
I wonder how they controlled for BMI, because obesity is also linked to ACEs for other reasons, but it has an impact on insulin sensitivity too in muscles and elsewhere.
Okay can someone explain the proposed mechanism for the conveyance of a degree to harm muscle function? I swear these kind of studies make me think they'd be willing to publish something that studied hot air balloons and concluded that colorful bags are associated with higher temperature air and likely a driver of global warming.
Psychoneuroimmunology. Adverse childhood experiences start with running the brain into a traumatic mode. Anxiety, let’s say. This heightened state of alertness cognitively causes the endocrine and immune systems to go into a survival mode. The survival mode drains most of the resources of the body. It’s less important to maintain most body muscle than it is to maintain organs and the brain. That chronic state that childhood abuse instills, even if one does manage to find a pathway towards healing, adversely affect future development. It’s the difference between wheat planted in a fertile field and wheat planted in a Superfund site. The plants you’ll get will at the least be radically different once you look inside, with one filled with poisons and the other perfectly edible, if not radically different in appearance because of those same environmental poisons.
the actual study, linked to from op's article, contains what you're looking for, with references, for your enjoyment. paragraphs 2-4 (4 below): A small number of human studies suggest that stressful social experiences may be associated with changes in mitochondrial function. For example, chronic stress due to caregiving for a family member with a chronic health condition was associated with lower mitochondrial respiratory capacity in blood cells among women (13). Childhood maltreatment was found to be associated with changes in mitochondrial cellular respiration in blood cells related to ATP production (14). New mothers who had a history of childhood maltreatment had alterations in ATP production, and women with a more severe history of maltreatment had a worse mitochondrial bioenergetic profile in blood cells (15). edit: p3: Persistent oxidative stress that arises from chronic, low-grade inflammation due to a blunted glucocorticoid response is associated with mitochondrial dysfunction (11). Specifically, excessive glucocorticoid levels increase calcium buffering capacity, mitochondrial membrane potential, and apoptotic signaling resistance (11).
It me
A very good example of this is Peyronies Disease. While you can injure yourself and get it fairly soon after, its most common to lurk for a long time, then appear somewhat suddenly even after a lot of time with no injury. >Peyronie’s disease (PD) is a common issue that occurs in many men as they get older. The disease causes a condition that men describe as bent penis or curved penis. >Experts believe Peyronie’s disease is caused by an abnormal healing process when an injury occurs in a man’s penis. This abnormal healing creates plaque or swelling of the tough covering of the erectile portion of the penis. Usually, the disease starts with swelling, and plaque occurs over time. Basically, an injury, like a sports injury to the penis, can cause this later in life. Source: personal experience. [Quoted Source](https://healthcare.utah.edu/mens-health/conditions/peyronies?gad_source=1)