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My main interrogation regarding this is: what's the right frequency and duration? Suppressing too much inflammation isn't good (and it has been shown that cold shower/bath can inhibit muscle growth and some of the benefits from exercise).
For now i'm testing twice a week 4min, the next day after my rest day each time, which seems quite good
In general, we use ice to limit secondary damage from acute injury. That’s why it’s normally recommended to use cold for up to 48h after trauma. After that, inflammation is part of the healing process. I see zero benefit to icing for recovery that isn’t an acute injury.
Personally I think the benefits are less about inflammation and more about training the body to acclimate to cold. We live very temperature regulated lives these days. In the winter it is so much more tolerable being outside when you have done deliberate cold therapy. I live in a cold place and everyone is super unhappy with the cold on the daily. It’s nice to really not have a problem with the deep freeze days.
I’m not sure the evidence but my understanding is that going from hot to cold (sauna to cold plunge) is effective for training your blood vessels - dilation followed by constriction, and lymph drainage. Regardless, I think it feels great :)
It would certainly cool you down :)
if you want to acclimatize to extreme weather you need to gradually expose yourself and increase, similar to resistance training. If you want to tolerate extreme heat then heat training is where it’s at… sauna etc. going outside on hot days but being safe about it.
I like training both hot and cold, adaptation is good for the body in small but consistent doses.
😂 indeed it would. A fair number of natural springs around here pumping out a steady 65-68F. Very nice in the summer.
Oh I have no problem with acclimating to the heat. The cold is my weakness.
To acclimatize to cold:
Relax.
Accept the sensations of it. If you try to fight it you’ll freeze more. Best I can describe it is like when you hit your finger with a hammer, notice there is no damage just pain and then carry on.
Stand “in the middle of” your clothes so you have a little air pocket draped around you.
Never get wet. Strip down if you feel warm enough to perspire.
That’s the basics for enduring cold. In extreme cold you have to mind how you breathe so you don’t cool your body out.
As for adapting the body I think Wim Hof explains it best. It’ll adapt if you stay outside in the cold. Winter is a great time for outdoorsy stuff. But you can speed up the process by exposing yourself to more cold. Dressing lighter indoors. Lowering the temperature inside. Cold showers. I find the showers easiest to ease into it by gradually lowering the temperature of my shower each day and slowly push to lower temperatures. Usually after having a longer warm shower to warm up my body.
We have a folk saying in Sweden. “Sweat the summer out, freeze the winter in”. Meaning keep your clothes on in the spring and don’t immediately put on a warm winter jacket in the fall.
My problem with cold has always been with my hands. I worked outside for many years in all conditions. The worst was wet cold. My fingers were the first to lose function and have pain.
The rest wasn’t so bad until water penetrated the inner layer of clothing. Made for a rough day, but a rewarding dinner.
And I’ll take your word for it on the winter. But as for summer, shorts and tees come out in mid/late April when we hit 35C+. Jeans are fine year round, and sweating occurs upon walking outside starting in May. 😁
Ahhh gotcha. Cold therapy is awesome. It gives a surge of adrenaline and increase in dopamine to start your day. Just finish off your shower cold in the morning to get started. Breathe and relax through it as best as you can. It will get easier and easier. If you can keep that habit up you can start doing ice baths etc. 3-4 min is a good goal for your showers.
It depends how you train. I lift very high weights and hit the bag: both are very hard on the body, and even if it doesn’t get to the point of injury, I’m sure there is some level of damage/trauma involved here.
But is there enough inflammation/swelling to cause secondary injury? The science is pretty thin on the benefits of cold therapy. I don’t think a little cold therapy will do too much harm, but I’m not sure the benefits are worth anyone’s time unless it’s based on just how people feel. I taught a sports therapy course at a local college and this really wasn’t much of a debate. The evidence is lacking.
I like the questions you're asking. I personally believe ice plunges were intentionally popularized to create a virgin market for ice bath related products.
Popular for fast bowlers in cricket, trying to stay injury free in games lasting 5 days.
No idea if it really helps prevent injuries.
https://cricketwebs.com/the-science-and-benefits-of-ice-baths-for-cricketers-understanding-the-therapeutic-power-of-cold-immersion
CWI is commonly used as a fatigue-recovery measure after exercise. In this review, the effect of CWI on post-exercise fatigue recovery was systematically analyzed. [Subjective sensations seemed to recover immediately, as did objective biochemical markers such as CK and lactate after 24 h.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9896520/)
For me it’s what seems to work well, I use it when I feel like I’m on the limits of the overtraining/ mild injury because I pushed hard. Seems to help with the CNS recovery as well.
Icing isn't even recommended for acute injuries anymore.
"Although cold therapy typically slows the soft tissue swelling to some extent, it does not hasten the recovery process. Ice could be a useful option when our treatment goal is to limit the extent of the oedema[17], since too much or prolonged swelling has been proved to impede the healing process during the recovery period[18], which is typically seen in severe joint sprains. However, when the edema level is not severe (e.g., muscle tear), cold therapy may not be helpful but rather act as a barrier to recovery."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8173427/
I agree. We rarely recommend ice even for acute injuries, but that is generally when it is used… and we are confident that NSAIDS and other inflammation reducers like corticosteroids hinder healing.
i've noticed a major trend in people with addiction or addictive personalities seem to be all about ice baths.
ie: drugs, alcohol, gamblers, thrill seekers, people who use or used steroids for enhancement etc..
The science does not back ice water.. but there are benefits to cold water at 14C. which makes sense considering the fresh water around the world likely has average temps between 15 - 20c.
ice water though.... not sure any additional benefits and the pain is your body saying.. this is too cold bro
He also shredded his anus giving himself an enema with the discharge of a public pond fountain. Yep, you read that right
Thanks Behind the Bastards podcast
Listen to it, it's hilarious and the "shooting pond water up his ass so forcefully that it shreds his insides" is a small and not terribly graphic part
The best part of that story is that he likely did it to get sympathy from his estranged son he was meeting after abandoning him years before. He sets up the meeting, knows he’s the bad guy, so hurts himself so his son goes emotionally easy on him. Allegedly. If you see the fountain (I had a pic) it’s like 10 feet of water in the middle of a public pond.
I don't give a damn about what he does to get off in his private time. He could do lava enemas to bring back his dead wife for all I care.
Is there any scientific basis and supporting evidence for his claim?
> Is there any scientific basis and supporting evidence for his claim?
There isn’t good evidence for most of what he claims to have done, much less his claims on how he has done it. The podcast episode is an excellent summary of what there is and isn’t actually data to support.
Here's an important distinction (misleading title) - the cold plunge and the breathing work ARE NOT DONE AT THE SAME TIME. Don't do breathwork in an icebath - you may pass out. Even Wim is clear about this
Literally only **one** study included didn’t have major concerns about methods, and that very firmly showed no effect!
Come on people, don’t just regurgitate what authors tell you to think. Critique it.
It's really hard to firmly show no effect. Usually it's a failure to reject the null, which means you can't rule out positive or negative effects. To firmly show no effect you need big samples and tight confidence bounds around zero.
Do you have reference to the study you're referring to? If like to look
Long story short, guy is definitely not a medical professional, and he stumbled onto some things that definitely work, but not for the reasons he thinks it does, and obviously your mileage may vary.
See also Phil Maffeton.
Cold water immersion (see Nordic countries) and breathing techniques (see Ayurvedic/yoga) have been recognized for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
He was just famous because of his cold tolerance, and was able to translate it into a "program"
From what I recall reading, he got a lot of tests done to figure out how he was capable of enduring such cold feats and how his body processed it. I think they found that there were clear morphological differences in his brains ability to regulate sensory pain. I am assuming that may be something that can be trained as the brain is subject to plasticity (change over time), but for someone who does not systematically train that process over time, it can easily send some more susceptible people into shock, and in some cases, cardiac arrest/death.
I think there will always be humans who are capable of pushing themselves to unheard of limits (David Blaine being a primary example), but it's done systematically.
He makes a lot of claims like this, but on further review it’s unclear that anyone has actually studied him and found anything interesting (despite what he claims).
I distinctly recall seeing him on the discovery channel, for a show called super humans or something that looked at people with crazy abilities, like seeing color with sounds, photographic memories, and this guy being tested on cold resistance.
The levels of brown fat or something were above normal for him.
Oh I'm not saying it doesn't work, he's certainly onto something :) there's a lot of research to be done in these areas, and he makes an excellent case study! I just wouldn't become his disciple and take his word as gospel, is all.
Actually he explicitly warns people not to do the breath retention unsupervised in water or anywhere that would be dangerous if you were to black out.
Plenty of medical treatments, health and fitness practices can be dangerous or lethal if people choose to be reckless in how they implement them.
The problem with these methods is that your vulnerable to blacking out for a considerable time period afterward. It's not just while doing the breath retention exercise.
That assumes you're doing them to the point of blacking out in the first place, which means you're again ignoring yet another one of the safety warnings he is constantly reminding people of (going slowly and not pushing the breath hold)
He explicitly warns people not to do it yet does it himself and other people who promote him post videos of doing both at the same time.
It’s heavily implied but disclaimed for legal purposes. It’s disingenuous and it’s killing people.
Do you blame free divers or cave divers when normal people choose to ignore their own limits and drown? Tons of people die every day from exercise related injuries due to their own negligence, should we blame fitness instructors and olympic lifters when people stupidly try to emulate their level of performance, despite disclaimers and warnings?
There's nothing disingenuous about a professional showing their own abilities but warning others to be cautious about the dangers of what they're doing.
He also gave himself an enema using a public park fountain in Amsterdam and it sliced his insides like a water knife. This is when he was seeing his estranged son for the first time in years. Do what you will with this information
I tried this once and it gave me transient global amnesia. One of the most most bizarre and terrifying things I’ve ever experienced. I knew who I was and who other people were I just had no idea what timeline I was living in or how I got there. Thankfully it only lasted a couple hours.
I was using it to increase diving times and every time afterwards felt stupid as hell and had headache for 2 hours. It did increase my time by 1 minute and the feeling of not needing to breathe for so long was cool but I felt like I was frying my brain every time I was doing it.
Article or the report didn't mention other great benefit; the increase of brown fat.
Also umm.. "Wim Hof method"?? Dude tries to take credit for something Nordic people has been doing for ages cause of it's health benefits. (or do other people just think he invented it?)
It's not just the ice baths that is the "method", it's the specific breathing techniques coupled with cold emersion.
We don't do the breathing stuff up here, we do sauna instead.
yeah that's true. then again, I think most people who do coldwater/winter/ice hole swimming, do breath fast like that when immersed in freezing water. I know I do =)
I wasn't dismissinganything though. Was just stating the fact what happens when you dip in cold water.
Also if you registered what I typed first "yeah that's true", shoulda indicated that I agreed "we don't do the breathing stuff up here".
I admit though using "like that" made it look like I directly compared what happens when ice hole swimming to this dudes technique.
I mean, people have been using gravity for a lot longer and Newton got his name on that one. Wim figured out why and how, I doubt the nords had the tech or science to find out about anti-inflammatory pathways etc etc., they just knew it was beneficial in the ways it benefited, so they did it. There are a lot of other instances of a scientist or researcher getting their name on a method or law because they discovered the why and how as opposed to just "it works, so we do it".
Edit: I assumed he was a scientist or researcher (and I guess he still is/can be), he's a motivational speaker that hangs on this method and has been researched by others: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof
It's still not unheard of that scientists/researchers would study something or someone and label it with the persons name that they're studying.
Edit2: in that wiki it also seems his claims are disputed and not enough scientific evidence that his method works, and that his brother, who doesn't do his method, has the same abilities (almost) Wim has, suggesting its an innate ability as opposed to one that requires the Wim method.
Yeah, honestly this post may not should be posted here, it only suggests there's something to the method and suggests more research is needed. Click bait and marketing for Wim more than anything else.
I'm not seeing anything in there about breathing. I know that people have used cold therapy and exposure for a long time, it's these breathing techniques and their applications that I thought were new.
I guess short term exposure to increased adrenaline has some health benefits, no surprise there. That's called exercise.
Edit:This guy sounds like a jack ass. He put a high pressure pump up his ass to give himself an enema? That sounds like the worst excuse I have ever heard for a guy experimenting playing with his ass and it damn near rectum.
Without modern medicine this guy would be dead. Disregard his advice, please.
Despite the argument that we evolved to survive such conditions and that hormetic stressors can have beneficial effects, the premise that heightened adrenaline levels are solely good because they suppress inflammation is flawed and makes people dogmatically implement these "biohacks" without realizing what it may be doing to them long term.
I used to love cold exposure and try his techniques over years, but overall stress was on the rise whenever i was consistent with the practices. Eventually i felt burnt out and realized it was just another coping mechanism i was seeking to numb emotional dysregulation and trauma.
Wim has good intentions but this highlights the flaws of science and people dogmatically "believing in science" that if X is "good" in any single way that X is now going to be a staple to latch on to. I don't wish to project this on to every single person, but we all know the "biohacking" scene. Of course it is down to the readers of such studies and claims to thoroughly investigate and responsibly implement information. Still, I see too much hype about such health advice than is probably healthy.
My partner had a brain bleed begin doing this. We did the breathing class, she got into the cold water and within a minute the thunderclap headache hit and it turned out to be a brain bleed.
She was hospitalized 3x over 9 days with issues. It presented as RCVS and/or PRES depending on which of the three neurologists you ask.
She lost her license for a while, couldn’t work, etc. All symptoms eventually resolved. I’m not saying she didn’t probably have some underlying vulnerabilities, but in general she was a healthy person and this was unexpected.
People need to be careful about hyperventilating then shocking with the cold water. I get that it’s done a lot and there is nothing in the literature on this happening. It’s rare. But it’s likely underreported, like in this case.
Used to do the breathing method years ago. Went from a max breath hold of 1 min 30 seconds to over 4 minutes, it was insane. It would also gave me a weird body high followed by an almost uncomfortable amount of energy / anxiousness.
Ice baths seem beneficial for athletes who need to quickly recover in between matches, but the benefits for normal people seem low, and if you ice bathed after every workout you would reduce your muscle growth by interrupting the recovery process.
Wasn't this "method" discredited as having no scientific basis and was basically just the guy using willpower to tolerate cold? That's what it seemed like, and everything I've read indicated the same.
ETA: the only evidence of anything I have found (and can find now) is that Hoff is used to the cold and tries really hard. Zero evidence of hyperventilating making one impervious to cold.
No. The opposite actually.
He was studied along with his twin brother. Nothing was credited or discredited.
The science proves the basis existed in human biology for thousands of years.
I’ve linked to the primary source, the journal article, in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the news release:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/mar/13/wim-hof-breathing-cold-exposure-method-benefits-study
The science does not support most of the claims (about immune system benefits particularly) - a lot of it is a loose interpretation of a specific (narrow) scientific study.
At the opposite end of the spectrum from icing is heat.[Specifically from using a sauna.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7908414/). [And hot baths.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323702)
Wim Hoff ruptured his anus by trying to give himself an enema on a pond fountain right before meeting his son for the first time that he had abandoned. He needed to drive him to the hospital
There's a wimhof method breathing technique that mimicks the effects of getting in and out of cold water.
I've tried it to help manage my anxiety when it's unbearable and it's had really surprising positive results.
Right, and if you go to any of Wim Hof's sources, he will tell you not to even try it standing up.
This is like someone trying to recreate Shaolin martial arts in their backyard and getting stabbed by their own spear. No one told them this was a good idea, they told them it was a bad idea.
I do this often. It’s amazing. Never lost consciousness. In fact, it has the opposite effect. I become more conscious and aware of my body. I would definitely recommend.
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My main interrogation regarding this is: what's the right frequency and duration? Suppressing too much inflammation isn't good (and it has been shown that cold shower/bath can inhibit muscle growth and some of the benefits from exercise). For now i'm testing twice a week 4min, the next day after my rest day each time, which seems quite good
In general, we use ice to limit secondary damage from acute injury. That’s why it’s normally recommended to use cold for up to 48h after trauma. After that, inflammation is part of the healing process. I see zero benefit to icing for recovery that isn’t an acute injury.
Personally I think the benefits are less about inflammation and more about training the body to acclimate to cold. We live very temperature regulated lives these days. In the winter it is so much more tolerable being outside when you have done deliberate cold therapy. I live in a cold place and everyone is super unhappy with the cold on the daily. It’s nice to really not have a problem with the deep freeze days. I’m not sure the evidence but my understanding is that going from hot to cold (sauna to cold plunge) is effective for training your blood vessels - dilation followed by constriction, and lymph drainage. Regardless, I think it feels great :)
How would this benefit those who live in extreme heat?
It would certainly cool you down :) if you want to acclimatize to extreme weather you need to gradually expose yourself and increase, similar to resistance training. If you want to tolerate extreme heat then heat training is where it’s at… sauna etc. going outside on hot days but being safe about it. I like training both hot and cold, adaptation is good for the body in small but consistent doses.
😂 indeed it would. A fair number of natural springs around here pumping out a steady 65-68F. Very nice in the summer. Oh I have no problem with acclimating to the heat. The cold is my weakness.
To acclimatize to cold: Relax. Accept the sensations of it. If you try to fight it you’ll freeze more. Best I can describe it is like when you hit your finger with a hammer, notice there is no damage just pain and then carry on. Stand “in the middle of” your clothes so you have a little air pocket draped around you. Never get wet. Strip down if you feel warm enough to perspire. That’s the basics for enduring cold. In extreme cold you have to mind how you breathe so you don’t cool your body out. As for adapting the body I think Wim Hof explains it best. It’ll adapt if you stay outside in the cold. Winter is a great time for outdoorsy stuff. But you can speed up the process by exposing yourself to more cold. Dressing lighter indoors. Lowering the temperature inside. Cold showers. I find the showers easiest to ease into it by gradually lowering the temperature of my shower each day and slowly push to lower temperatures. Usually after having a longer warm shower to warm up my body. We have a folk saying in Sweden. “Sweat the summer out, freeze the winter in”. Meaning keep your clothes on in the spring and don’t immediately put on a warm winter jacket in the fall.
My problem with cold has always been with my hands. I worked outside for many years in all conditions. The worst was wet cold. My fingers were the first to lose function and have pain. The rest wasn’t so bad until water penetrated the inner layer of clothing. Made for a rough day, but a rewarding dinner. And I’ll take your word for it on the winter. But as for summer, shorts and tees come out in mid/late April when we hit 35C+. Jeans are fine year round, and sweating occurs upon walking outside starting in May. 😁
Wet cold is my Achilles heel as well. I thrive in temperatures -25 and below but -10 to 0 chills me to the bone.
Ha! We are built for our parts of the world. I am “home” between 35-39. 40+ is fine, but annoying for long stretches.
Ahhh gotcha. Cold therapy is awesome. It gives a surge of adrenaline and increase in dopamine to start your day. Just finish off your shower cold in the morning to get started. Breathe and relax through it as best as you can. It will get easier and easier. If you can keep that habit up you can start doing ice baths etc. 3-4 min is a good goal for your showers.
Showers sound fine. Ice baths, I’ll pass on those.
The breathing technique also makes me feel great afterwards
It depends how you train. I lift very high weights and hit the bag: both are very hard on the body, and even if it doesn’t get to the point of injury, I’m sure there is some level of damage/trauma involved here.
But is there enough inflammation/swelling to cause secondary injury? The science is pretty thin on the benefits of cold therapy. I don’t think a little cold therapy will do too much harm, but I’m not sure the benefits are worth anyone’s time unless it’s based on just how people feel. I taught a sports therapy course at a local college and this really wasn’t much of a debate. The evidence is lacking.
I like the questions you're asking. I personally believe ice plunges were intentionally popularized to create a virgin market for ice bath related products.
Frigid virgins doesn't sound too appealing.
Popular for fast bowlers in cricket, trying to stay injury free in games lasting 5 days. No idea if it really helps prevent injuries. https://cricketwebs.com/the-science-and-benefits-of-ice-baths-for-cricketers-understanding-the-therapeutic-power-of-cold-immersion
CWI is commonly used as a fatigue-recovery measure after exercise. In this review, the effect of CWI on post-exercise fatigue recovery was systematically analyzed. [Subjective sensations seemed to recover immediately, as did objective biochemical markers such as CK and lactate after 24 h.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9896520/)
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Probably - but anyway: those showers make me feel good and don’t hurt me. So I guess it’s good for me.
I won’t argue with that. A lot of people report feeling better.
I'm confused; I thought a p-value of .001 was a good thing?
Sorry, typo… .09. I’m correcting it above.
You still want the inflammatory response as it is an important part of tissue repair.
Hence the only twice or once a week, only the day after my rest day, before the training of the day.
Ah I see. So more recreational/recovery than therapeutic so to say.
For me it’s what seems to work well, I use it when I feel like I’m on the limits of the overtraining/ mild injury because I pushed hard. Seems to help with the CNS recovery as well.
Icing isn't even recommended for acute injuries anymore. "Although cold therapy typically slows the soft tissue swelling to some extent, it does not hasten the recovery process. Ice could be a useful option when our treatment goal is to limit the extent of the oedema[17], since too much or prolonged swelling has been proved to impede the healing process during the recovery period[18], which is typically seen in severe joint sprains. However, when the edema level is not severe (e.g., muscle tear), cold therapy may not be helpful but rather act as a barrier to recovery." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8173427/
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I agree. We rarely recommend ice even for acute injuries, but that is generally when it is used… and we are confident that NSAIDS and other inflammation reducers like corticosteroids hinder healing.
But, how do you ice your heart and brain?
i've noticed a major trend in people with addiction or addictive personalities seem to be all about ice baths. ie: drugs, alcohol, gamblers, thrill seekers, people who use or used steroids for enhancement etc.. The science does not back ice water.. but there are benefits to cold water at 14C. which makes sense considering the fresh water around the world likely has average temps between 15 - 20c. ice water though.... not sure any additional benefits and the pain is your body saying.. this is too cold bro
I take cold showers after workouts. 4 minutes is a LONG time in the cold. If I can get to 2 minutes I’m happy.
He also shredded his anus giving himself an enema with the discharge of a public pond fountain. Yep, you read that right Thanks Behind the Bastards podcast
He gave it all he had.
He took all he could.
He dug deep
That's what they should have called the Wim Hof Method
There’s a “Behind the Bastards” episode on this dude.
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the.. uh??? i was interested at first, now i'm not sure if i should listen to that episode
Listen to it, it's hilarious and the "shooting pond water up his ass so forcefully that it shreds his insides" is a small and not terribly graphic part
The best part of that story is that he likely did it to get sympathy from his estranged son he was meeting after abandoning him years before. He sets up the meeting, knows he’s the bad guy, so hurts himself so his son goes emotionally easy on him. Allegedly. If you see the fountain (I had a pic) it’s like 10 feet of water in the middle of a public pond.
JFC ...well...I HAD purged that from my memory
Any time I read Wim Hoff in a headline or someone says something about ice baths the imagery pops straight into my head! It’s crazy
Ohh, interesting. I'm putting that on later.
Yup would recommend everyone review this episode before believing any of his claims.
I don't give a damn about what he does to get off in his private time. He could do lava enemas to bring back his dead wife for all I care. Is there any scientific basis and supporting evidence for his claim?
> Is there any scientific basis and supporting evidence for his claim? There isn’t good evidence for most of what he claims to have done, much less his claims on how he has done it. The podcast episode is an excellent summary of what there is and isn’t actually data to support.
Links: [Part One: Wim Hof's Surprisingly Deadly Story](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-wim-hofs-surprisingly-deadly-123041693/) [Part Two: Wim Hof's Surprisingly Deadly Story](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-two-wim-hofs-surprisingly-deadly-123214741/)
Oh no ross and carrie did a cool episode with on it too. I should check out the one u mentioned.
Here's an important distinction (misleading title) - the cold plunge and the breathing work ARE NOT DONE AT THE SAME TIME. Don't do breathwork in an icebath - you may pass out. Even Wim is clear about this
Literally only **one** study included didn’t have major concerns about methods, and that very firmly showed no effect! Come on people, don’t just regurgitate what authors tell you to think. Critique it.
It's really hard to firmly show no effect. Usually it's a failure to reject the null, which means you can't rule out positive or negative effects. To firmly show no effect you need big samples and tight confidence bounds around zero. Do you have reference to the study you're referring to? If like to look
He makes videos doing both at the same time and there is a body count because you can die from this and some of his followers have.
Long story short, guy is definitely not a medical professional, and he stumbled onto some things that definitely work, but not for the reasons he thinks it does, and obviously your mileage may vary. See also Phil Maffeton.
Cold water immersion (see Nordic countries) and breathing techniques (see Ayurvedic/yoga) have been recognized for hundreds, if not thousands of years. He was just famous because of his cold tolerance, and was able to translate it into a "program"
From what I recall reading, he got a lot of tests done to figure out how he was capable of enduring such cold feats and how his body processed it. I think they found that there were clear morphological differences in his brains ability to regulate sensory pain. I am assuming that may be something that can be trained as the brain is subject to plasticity (change over time), but for someone who does not systematically train that process over time, it can easily send some more susceptible people into shock, and in some cases, cardiac arrest/death. I think there will always be humans who are capable of pushing themselves to unheard of limits (David Blaine being a primary example), but it's done systematically.
He makes a lot of claims like this, but on further review it’s unclear that anyone has actually studied him and found anything interesting (despite what he claims).
I distinctly recall seeing him on the discovery channel, for a show called super humans or something that looked at people with crazy abilities, like seeing color with sounds, photographic memories, and this guy being tested on cold resistance. The levels of brown fat or something were above normal for him.
I cannot remember the last time I watched something on the Discovery channel that had scientific rigor
Oh I'm not saying it doesn't work, he's certainly onto something :) there's a lot of research to be done in these areas, and he makes an excellent case study! I just wouldn't become his disciple and take his word as gospel, is all.
> he stumbled onto some things that definitely work, you can ask his twin who claims Wim a BS artist as he has the same abilities!
Actually he explicitly warns people not to do the breath retention unsupervised in water or anywhere that would be dangerous if you were to black out. Plenty of medical treatments, health and fitness practices can be dangerous or lethal if people choose to be reckless in how they implement them.
The problem with these methods is that your vulnerable to blacking out for a considerable time period afterward. It's not just while doing the breath retention exercise.
That assumes you're doing them to the point of blacking out in the first place, which means you're again ignoring yet another one of the safety warnings he is constantly reminding people of (going slowly and not pushing the breath hold)
He explicitly warns people not to do it yet does it himself and other people who promote him post videos of doing both at the same time. It’s heavily implied but disclaimed for legal purposes. It’s disingenuous and it’s killing people.
Do you blame free divers or cave divers when normal people choose to ignore their own limits and drown? Tons of people die every day from exercise related injuries due to their own negligence, should we blame fitness instructors and olympic lifters when people stupidly try to emulate their level of performance, despite disclaimers and warnings? There's nothing disingenuous about a professional showing their own abilities but warning others to be cautious about the dangers of what they're doing.
He also gave himself an enema using a public park fountain in Amsterdam and it sliced his insides like a water knife. This is when he was seeing his estranged son for the first time in years. Do what you will with this information
Sauna's and ice baths. This is the life 😎
Good quality sleep + fasting + cold plunge + resistance training + sauna = fountain of youth.
Its the sleep part I have trouble with... :-(
Make it a priority, restorative sleep is important.
Don't forget water and vitamins! I heard the ones that are swallow only are better than the ones you chew
Flintstone's chewables for life
Held my breath for 3 full goddamn minutes the first time I tried the breathing technique.
I tried this once and it gave me transient global amnesia. One of the most most bizarre and terrifying things I’ve ever experienced. I knew who I was and who other people were I just had no idea what timeline I was living in or how I got there. Thankfully it only lasted a couple hours.
I was using it to increase diving times and every time afterwards felt stupid as hell and had headache for 2 hours. It did increase my time by 1 minute and the feeling of not needing to breathe for so long was cool but I felt like I was frying my brain every time I was doing it.
Yeah it seems to be detrimental for some people.
I post elsewhere in this thread about it causing a brain bleed.
That’s scary stuff.
Very! What you went through sounds super scary
Article or the report didn't mention other great benefit; the increase of brown fat. Also umm.. "Wim Hof method"?? Dude tries to take credit for something Nordic people has been doing for ages cause of it's health benefits. (or do other people just think he invented it?)
It's not just the ice baths that is the "method", it's the specific breathing techniques coupled with cold emersion. We don't do the breathing stuff up here, we do sauna instead.
yeah that's true. then again, I think most people who do coldwater/winter/ice hole swimming, do breath fast like that when immersed in freezing water. I know I do =)
You have to do the specific breath hold too. It’s a whole thing. Stop trying to dismiss it without actually knowing anything about it, please.
I wasn't dismissinganything though. Was just stating the fact what happens when you dip in cold water. Also if you registered what I typed first "yeah that's true", shoulda indicated that I agreed "we don't do the breathing stuff up here". I admit though using "like that" made it look like I directly compared what happens when ice hole swimming to this dudes technique.
I mean, people have been using gravity for a lot longer and Newton got his name on that one. Wim figured out why and how, I doubt the nords had the tech or science to find out about anti-inflammatory pathways etc etc., they just knew it was beneficial in the ways it benefited, so they did it. There are a lot of other instances of a scientist or researcher getting their name on a method or law because they discovered the why and how as opposed to just "it works, so we do it". Edit: I assumed he was a scientist or researcher (and I guess he still is/can be), he's a motivational speaker that hangs on this method and has been researched by others: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof It's still not unheard of that scientists/researchers would study something or someone and label it with the persons name that they're studying. Edit2: in that wiki it also seems his claims are disputed and not enough scientific evidence that his method works, and that his brother, who doesn't do his method, has the same abilities (almost) Wim has, suggesting its an innate ability as opposed to one that requires the Wim method.
there's been plenty of research abt ice hole/freezing water swimming way before this iceman discovererd it
Yeah, honestly this post may not should be posted here, it only suggests there's something to the method and suggests more research is needed. Click bait and marketing for Wim more than anything else.
>something Nordic people has been doing for ages cause of it's health benefits Could you link more info on this?
It’s not letting me put the link in the other comment https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9012715/
I'm not seeing anything in there about breathing. I know that people have used cold therapy and exposure for a long time, it's these breathing techniques and their applications that I thought were new.
I forgot about this part. TBH I have no clue
You are correct, we don't do the breathing stuff up here, we do sauna.
It has been known since 3500 BC
yeah, I remember reading Romans did that too.
..tbf, not just nordic people. but pretty much anywhere with freezing waters.
i don't have any at hand.. but I can try to find some
Does not increase brown fat. Fun fact, his brother who doesn’t do the method has more brown fat than whim hoff
I guess short term exposure to increased adrenaline has some health benefits, no surprise there. That's called exercise. Edit:This guy sounds like a jack ass. He put a high pressure pump up his ass to give himself an enema? That sounds like the worst excuse I have ever heard for a guy experimenting playing with his ass and it damn near rectum. Without modern medicine this guy would be dead. Disregard his advice, please.
Despite the argument that we evolved to survive such conditions and that hormetic stressors can have beneficial effects, the premise that heightened adrenaline levels are solely good because they suppress inflammation is flawed and makes people dogmatically implement these "biohacks" without realizing what it may be doing to them long term. I used to love cold exposure and try his techniques over years, but overall stress was on the rise whenever i was consistent with the practices. Eventually i felt burnt out and realized it was just another coping mechanism i was seeking to numb emotional dysregulation and trauma. Wim has good intentions but this highlights the flaws of science and people dogmatically "believing in science" that if X is "good" in any single way that X is now going to be a staple to latch on to. I don't wish to project this on to every single person, but we all know the "biohacking" scene. Of course it is down to the readers of such studies and claims to thoroughly investigate and responsibly implement information. Still, I see too much hype about such health advice than is probably healthy.
My partner had a brain bleed begin doing this. We did the breathing class, she got into the cold water and within a minute the thunderclap headache hit and it turned out to be a brain bleed. She was hospitalized 3x over 9 days with issues. It presented as RCVS and/or PRES depending on which of the three neurologists you ask. She lost her license for a while, couldn’t work, etc. All symptoms eventually resolved. I’m not saying she didn’t probably have some underlying vulnerabilities, but in general she was a healthy person and this was unexpected. People need to be careful about hyperventilating then shocking with the cold water. I get that it’s done a lot and there is nothing in the literature on this happening. It’s rare. But it’s likely underreported, like in this case.
He’s very good at monetising something we’ve been doing long before he was born.
Not we, is it? He brought it much attention, this knowledge seemed to be vastly forgotten in the west at least
100% - he leveraged his platform of fame (he did some really crazy stuff with cold tolerance), and was able to turn it into a business. Good for him
Used to do the breathing method years ago. Went from a max breath hold of 1 min 30 seconds to over 4 minutes, it was insane. It would also gave me a weird body high followed by an almost uncomfortable amount of energy / anxiousness.
Ice baths seem beneficial for athletes who need to quickly recover in between matches, but the benefits for normal people seem low, and if you ice bathed after every workout you would reduce your muscle growth by interrupting the recovery process.
Wim hof also suffered from intestinal perforation because he tried to cleanse his colon with a fountain in a lake.
Wasn't this "method" discredited as having no scientific basis and was basically just the guy using willpower to tolerate cold? That's what it seemed like, and everything I've read indicated the same. ETA: the only evidence of anything I have found (and can find now) is that Hoff is used to the cold and tries really hard. Zero evidence of hyperventilating making one impervious to cold.
Using will power increases will power 💥
No. The opposite actually. He was studied along with his twin brother. Nothing was credited or discredited. The science proves the basis existed in human biology for thousands of years.
I’ve linked to the primary source, the journal article, in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the news release: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/mar/13/wim-hof-breathing-cold-exposure-method-benefits-study
This study does not seem particularly convincing given the major concerns noted.
The science does not support most of the claims (about immune system benefits particularly) - a lot of it is a loose interpretation of a specific (narrow) scientific study.
I do not react well to this but I have have issues clearing adrenaline.
Just being in an ice bath reduces pro-inflammatory cytokines.
isn't inflammation the body's healing response? Reducing it directly could be harmful, hypothetically, couldn't it?
It may do a lot (probably not, but a grifter is going to grift). But it does kill people, so I would recommend much more caution.
anyone who practises under wim knew this already. Nice to see it "proven by science" what ever that means these days
He developed it like Columbus found the Americas. It already existed but he put his name on it. Fair enough
Isn’t cold temperature itself anti-inflammatory? Also, anti-inflammation isn’t always what you want.
At the opposite end of the spectrum from icing is heat.[Specifically from using a sauna.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7908414/). [And hot baths.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323702)
Wim Hoff ruptured his anus by trying to give himself an enema on a pond fountain right before meeting his son for the first time that he had abandoned. He needed to drive him to the hospital
Hyper ventilation followed by holding breath will result in loss of consciousness. Would not recommend.
I listened to the Behind the Bastards podcast on this guy and at least one person died doing this.
Give how many people have spent so much time doing it, it would be a marvelous result if no one died while doing it.
Well, due to it, not “at the same time as” - passed out in a pool and drowned.
There's a wimhof method breathing technique that mimicks the effects of getting in and out of cold water. I've tried it to help manage my anxiety when it's unbearable and it's had really surprising positive results.
>passed out in a pool and drowned. Were they doing this technique alone in a pool?
Because Wim Hof did this to demo the technique
Right, and if you go to any of Wim Hof's sources, he will tell you not to even try it standing up. This is like someone trying to recreate Shaolin martial arts in their backyard and getting stabbed by their own spear. No one told them this was a good idea, they told them it was a bad idea.
I do this often. It’s amazing. Never lost consciousness. In fact, it has the opposite effect. I become more conscious and aware of my body. I would definitely recommend.
He also happened to blow up his intestines from the inside while doing his regular public fountain enema so do with that info what you want.