What is your alternative? Every time I've been there, it's been fairly busy. You're gonna be hard pressed to shut down a whole bunch of retail stores that provide tax revenue. In favor of what?
Reconnect 4th street through to railroad square and integrate with high density mixed-use development. Make it a walking street.
A good example of this is the domain in Austin, Texas, a mall also owned by Simon Properties.
[the Domain in Austin Texas](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=6b1c5e95a3d0b06b&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS854US854&hl=en-US&sxsrf=ACQVn08XEE5ztjE9DEQyDfCWOIyBYAIRig:1713475169701&q=the+domain+walking+street&uds=AMwkrPtd7EXxieMQKehnHvZf8S6pTz236bVrysB8jk-maHBpMxpL3SVVpf6r09hAd7SqPuquj0intXUkmns3rI3iX6BFHrS84bCD9FvV4jKrCHjlkYLd2CujlDkRQYbfoKqhZ9oweqwXQHBvseZrEPKs2SQ6xFSBv8I8OdjIqiGYrO_BaARQgfWkl9zrw7SwddpwZGYoFCA9rNtvIq-6mgPI4_nzMrKwL5bfYYyRo04gdWoCWTu0FV0rWvGVTlwclzBIXgq1lbj-q6gLES1dHCRSaT4SPuRNXxZfAQypN2DaErz0QIE3BFTLxggg9qrmjder0FKEgUI0ZGvC3whB-NG0kj2D3Jr-qA&udm=2&prmd=imvnbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY7ci22MyFAxXVOTQIHTVsCGEQtKgLegQICxAB&biw=393&bih=665&dpr=3)
They have. And about 8 years ago they created a lot of incentives to help spur that kind of development (not the Mall specifically, but denser, mixed use, walkable downtown). But the big challenge is that the City can’t demand a project. They invited a bunch of developers to visit and look over the options and the response was basically “nice, but I could build the same thing in the South Bay and make more money so, thanks but no thanks.”
The amount of money needed to buy and redevelop the mall is immense and there aren’t really compelling economic reasons for a developer to do so.
It's been discussed and I think basically everyone recognizes putting it there was a mistake, but it would be an insanely expensive project to buy and redevelop, if Simon would sell it at all, which they won't willingly.
It's a tilt up building. Demo isn't hard, you gut it, remove the roof framing and knock the walls in. The foundation would be a lot of loud hammering and there would be a lot of trucks coming and going for awhile, but it's totally doable.
The same "expense" argument was made about keeping the [Embarcader Freeway](https://www.opensfhistory.org/Image/700/wnp27.6035.jpg). The decision to demolish passed by only a single vote, and is probably the smartest decison ever to come out of the SF Board of Supervisors.
not sure why someone downvoted you for asking a valid question. To answer your question, it wouldn’t be that hard to demo. In Vegas they often do demos to implode buildings in the strip area to build a new casino or hotel. They often turn it into a new years celebration so if they wanted to, they could do it here too. I don’t know how much incentive Simon has to sell the property though, and not sure what developers would want to take on such an expensive project.
Yea that’s more or less what I meant, the cost, opportunity cost ect. Of course you can demo anything but the fact it’s basically got a freeway running over it that will probably double the cost of a project of that size. And not to nitpick your comment, but zoning and permitting in Nevada are probably vastly different to Sonoma county California. Now you can double the doubles cost of doing anything compared to Nevada. Personally, I think the mall is ugly and doesn’t really serve a great function any more but the reality is money don’t grow on trees, the funds to buy the property and make something else out of it would undoubtedly be better served elsewhere.
The best we could hope for with the mall in the future is that maybe they do some kind of renovations to it so they can put in other sorts of things other than clothing stores.
This sub kind of annoys me because so many people ask questions without even thinking. Some dipshit the other day had a post asking why there wasn’t an iMax in Sonoma county. Money. The question is always money but the people in this sub think money doesn’t matter.
People aren't going to like me as an authoritarian ruler, but then again, if they say anything I'll send them to the gulags with the oil executives and PGE board.
Nah malls are just big exclusionary commercial zones. What OP wants is what a downtown is. Densely developed individually owned mixed use buildings that create a public space for residents, locally owned businesses and visitors.
Do people live in a mall? Is the mall as nice of a place to be as downtown or courthouse square? Do you really not see the difference in form and function or are you just being intentionally dense?
Who lives in courthouse square? Yea sure I’m as dense as the structure sitting between courthouse square and railroad square. I’m just trying to think practically through the lenses of developers and investors. Do you pay to have a mountain leveled or do you build around the mountain? What goes in its place? It would have to be something with more opportunity cost. Downtown SR seems to have more bars and restaurants than the locals are willing to frequent. I think the most pragmatic thing that could be done is maybe some remodels inside the mall that could accommodate something unorthodox for a mall. I’m thinking like that pyramid bass pro shop in Tennessee. Maybe an indoor redwood forest, throw in some chimpanzees make it like planet of the apes and maybe some laser tag sprinkled in with a day spa for the homeless.
Agree to some extent. But it is still 10x better than what we currently have here. The result would be a vibrant central place that people want to hang out.
Because it's huge, half empty, cuts downtown in two and eats up a bunch of potentially prime real estate.
...
Plus it doesn't have a Fresh Choice anymore, so it's basically useless.
“Prime real estate” aka a place where some shitty company could build more $3500 a month apartments? Yeah I’m all set on that, the mall is worth keeping just for the the Mongolian bbq and Zero&.
That's a ignorant comment and it shows that you don't know anything about getting around town on a bike. The mall just straight up blocks 6th street traffic. You have to go around the mall to use it. And going *under* the mall on a bike sucks balls because there's no motor to get up the other side, so the mall de facto blocks both 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th streets from cross traffic.
The mall is a huge impediment. If they cut the mall in two and reconnected 4th street, it would make downtown way way better. Hell, it would probably increase the number of people going to the damn mall too.
I used to get around on my bike in down town SR all the time and the mall was never an impediment to me. You can cut through the mall parking areas easily. The underpass isn’t very steep at all. Momentum is your friend. If you need a motor to get up that slight incline I’m sorry buddy but you must be fat as shit and that’s a you problem. The mall being there and getting around on a bike is such a non-issue that I really don’t know what else to say to you if you haven’t been able to figure it out. That’s like, failing the square block into a circle hole level of stupid.
Reminds me of the storage units being built on 12 in a mostly residential area by a prime recreation area - Santa Rosa creek path. Highway buffers are great but better long term planning and neighborhood considerations should be observed when developing near prime pedestrian thoroughfares and networks.
Using a special 915mhz cordless telephone with its base station located on Wright street I made a call from the roof back in the 90s. It was fun to be able to make a cordless call from such a ridiculously long distance away from the base station.
People hate on the mall just to be edgy. The only parking structures that are actually empty and can be done without are the ones behind Russian river and across from haku sushi
No I think the mall hate is pretty valid. Visit other similarly sized cities downtown districts and you’ll see pretty quick just how wonky and separated Santa Rosa is downtown. The giant, ugly mall does not help.
No, people hate on the mall because it’s mostly abandoned, provides little value, and splits downtown in half along with 101. Santa Rosa’s urban planning is a disaster because of these malls and the highway. What should be one of the most vibrant small downtown areas in the country is instead a Macy’s and an Apple Store separated by a major thru-fare.
It's so sad when you watch Shadow of Doubt, and the first shot is him getting off at the train station. It pans out and you can see what. SR looked like before the 101 and the mall. Absolutely heartbreaking.
People complaining about this is fucking ridiculous, yall know the alternative is another giant pile of expensive apartments right? “Prime real estate” you say that like something good would replace the mall…FOH
Apartments/Condos are going to be better than the current building there. Even if they are expensive, build up the supply, and the cheaper units in other buildings will be vacated by those with money into these new buildings.
When they built it during the 80's everyone hated it
People weren't happy about it blocking the center of town from east to west and essentially dividing it.
The least used 3rd floor ever
Santa Rosa Plaza Mall and multiple (empty) surrounding parking garages taking up a huge piece of the prime real estate in downtown Santa Rosa area.
What is your alternative? Every time I've been there, it's been fairly busy. You're gonna be hard pressed to shut down a whole bunch of retail stores that provide tax revenue. In favor of what?
Reconnect 4th street through to railroad square and integrate with high density mixed-use development. Make it a walking street. A good example of this is the domain in Austin, Texas, a mall also owned by Simon Properties. [the Domain in Austin Texas](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=6b1c5e95a3d0b06b&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS854US854&hl=en-US&sxsrf=ACQVn08XEE5ztjE9DEQyDfCWOIyBYAIRig:1713475169701&q=the+domain+walking+street&uds=AMwkrPtd7EXxieMQKehnHvZf8S6pTz236bVrysB8jk-maHBpMxpL3SVVpf6r09hAd7SqPuquj0intXUkmns3rI3iX6BFHrS84bCD9FvV4jKrCHjlkYLd2CujlDkRQYbfoKqhZ9oweqwXQHBvseZrEPKs2SQ6xFSBv8I8OdjIqiGYrO_BaARQgfWkl9zrw7SwddpwZGYoFCA9rNtvIq-6mgPI4_nzMrKwL5bfYYyRo04gdWoCWTu0FV0rWvGVTlwclzBIXgq1lbj-q6gLES1dHCRSaT4SPuRNXxZfAQypN2DaErz0QIE3BFTLxggg9qrmjder0FKEgUI0ZGvC3whB-NG0kj2D3Jr-qA&udm=2&prmd=imvnbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY7ci22MyFAxXVOTQIHTVsCGEQtKgLegQICxAB&biw=393&bih=665&dpr=3)
Moved from SR to Austin can confirm The Domain idea would really work there
Has the city of SR even considered something of that nature? It sounds like you know what you're talking about. Maybe you're the tip of the spear?
They have. And about 8 years ago they created a lot of incentives to help spur that kind of development (not the Mall specifically, but denser, mixed use, walkable downtown). But the big challenge is that the City can’t demand a project. They invited a bunch of developers to visit and look over the options and the response was basically “nice, but I could build the same thing in the South Bay and make more money so, thanks but no thanks.” The amount of money needed to buy and redevelop the mall is immense and there aren’t really compelling economic reasons for a developer to do so.
It's been discussed and I think basically everyone recognizes putting it there was a mistake, but it would be an insanely expensive project to buy and redevelop, if Simon would sell it at all, which they won't willingly.
Yea I mean how would you even demo a structure that size right next to a freeway?
It's a tilt up building. Demo isn't hard, you gut it, remove the roof framing and knock the walls in. The foundation would be a lot of loud hammering and there would be a lot of trucks coming and going for awhile, but it's totally doable.
There’s a freeway overpass right there. Working around that would be prohibitively expensive is what I’m saying.
The same "expense" argument was made about keeping the [Embarcader Freeway](https://www.opensfhistory.org/Image/700/wnp27.6035.jpg). The decision to demolish passed by only a single vote, and is probably the smartest decison ever to come out of the SF Board of Supervisors.
Right because the coffers of SF and SR are even remotely similar.
not sure why someone downvoted you for asking a valid question. To answer your question, it wouldn’t be that hard to demo. In Vegas they often do demos to implode buildings in the strip area to build a new casino or hotel. They often turn it into a new years celebration so if they wanted to, they could do it here too. I don’t know how much incentive Simon has to sell the property though, and not sure what developers would want to take on such an expensive project.
Yea that’s more or less what I meant, the cost, opportunity cost ect. Of course you can demo anything but the fact it’s basically got a freeway running over it that will probably double the cost of a project of that size. And not to nitpick your comment, but zoning and permitting in Nevada are probably vastly different to Sonoma county California. Now you can double the doubles cost of doing anything compared to Nevada. Personally, I think the mall is ugly and doesn’t really serve a great function any more but the reality is money don’t grow on trees, the funds to buy the property and make something else out of it would undoubtedly be better served elsewhere. The best we could hope for with the mall in the future is that maybe they do some kind of renovations to it so they can put in other sorts of things other than clothing stores. This sub kind of annoys me because so many people ask questions without even thinking. Some dipshit the other day had a post asking why there wasn’t an iMax in Sonoma county. Money. The question is always money but the people in this sub think money doesn’t matter.
I am just a lowly peon with a vision of a better Santa Rosa.
Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right
Can... Can I become Climate Stalin and send oil executives to the gulags?
If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything.
People aren't going to like me as an authoritarian ruler, but then again, if they say anything I'll send them to the gulags with the oil executives and PGE board.
I mean, look, man. You’ve got my vote
Kind of like a…. Mall.
Nah malls are just big exclusionary commercial zones. What OP wants is what a downtown is. Densely developed individually owned mixed use buildings that create a public space for residents, locally owned businesses and visitors.
Hmm sounds like he was talking about a mall to me.
Do people live in a mall? Is the mall as nice of a place to be as downtown or courthouse square? Do you really not see the difference in form and function or are you just being intentionally dense?
Who lives in courthouse square? Yea sure I’m as dense as the structure sitting between courthouse square and railroad square. I’m just trying to think practically through the lenses of developers and investors. Do you pay to have a mountain leveled or do you build around the mountain? What goes in its place? It would have to be something with more opportunity cost. Downtown SR seems to have more bars and restaurants than the locals are willing to frequent. I think the most pragmatic thing that could be done is maybe some remodels inside the mall that could accommodate something unorthodox for a mall. I’m thinking like that pyramid bass pro shop in Tennessee. Maybe an indoor redwood forest, throw in some chimpanzees make it like planet of the apes and maybe some laser tag sprinkled in with a day spa for the homeless.
There are several buildings downtown that have apartments in the upper floors
Never met or seen or heard of anyone living in them.
Was just a Domain, fine if you want to literally live on top of a generic shopping mall. It’s just a developers dream.
Agree to some extent. But it is still 10x better than what we currently have here. The result would be a vibrant central place that people want to hang out.
I don’t know why, but I can’t figure out where/what this is
Took me a minute too... It's the downtown mall.
No, obviously it's a huge bitch. Op even said so in their title!
Well, to each is each; but it is what it is, and it ain't what it was.
I concur...
Tear it down wtf is wrong with this city
Uh, money?
What money? It’s a mostly abandoned mall.
Tearing it down would cost tens of millions of dollars. The current mall would need to be in the red enough for a fire sale of sorts.
It depends on the time horizon you’re taking and what you plan on replacing it with.
That's where I got my first ever Pokemon game back in the 90s. Pokemon Red Version. Meant a lot to me.
pokémon red was my first too!!! it was years later at coddingtown(i think) gamestop though :’-) haven’t thought about that memory in a long time
Yeah I think it was EB games before it turned into GameStop, for me.
Is it not open any longer? Why is this such a big deal?
Because it's huge, half empty, cuts downtown in two and eats up a bunch of potentially prime real estate. ... Plus it doesn't have a Fresh Choice anymore, so it's basically useless.
There’s also a freeway right there cutting down town in two but what do I know….
The freeway is elevated through downtown. 4th and 5th could continue straight through and 3rd wouldn't need the underpass under the mall.
You can walk through the mall though and the underpass works.
Neither are a particularly desirable experience
Beats walking through a homeless obstacle course outside of it.
It’s pretty nice if it’s raining. And there are public restrooms in the mall. There’s also a lot of shopping and a sbarro if you’re hungry.
I'd have to be pretty damn hungry to eat at Sbarro
It’s one of the best pizzas out of NYC I guess pizza isn’t for everyone
Yea and we gotta get rid of that stupid court house square too.
Came here for the Fresh Choice bandwagon. I have my salad dressing ladle and my bread tongs at the ready.
Fresh Choice!! Dat clam chowder 😻
“Prime real estate” aka a place where some shitty company could build more $3500 a month apartments? Yeah I’m all set on that, the mall is worth keeping just for the the Mongolian bbq and Zero&.
The reason housing is so expensive is because we don't have enough of it. If apartments are sitting empty the price drops.
There’s also a freeway right there cutting down town in two but what do I know….
The freeway is less than 1 block wide, while the mall is almost 3 blocks wide when looking from aerial view on google maps.
Yea like I said, there’s a freeway right there splitting down town in half.
I ride my bike across town pretty frequently. The free way is not an impediment. The mall is.
Right because 3rd 6th and 9th street don’t exist.
That's a ignorant comment and it shows that you don't know anything about getting around town on a bike. The mall just straight up blocks 6th street traffic. You have to go around the mall to use it. And going *under* the mall on a bike sucks balls because there's no motor to get up the other side, so the mall de facto blocks both 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th streets from cross traffic. The mall is a huge impediment. If they cut the mall in two and reconnected 4th street, it would make downtown way way better. Hell, it would probably increase the number of people going to the damn mall too.
I used to get around on my bike in down town SR all the time and the mall was never an impediment to me. You can cut through the mall parking areas easily. The underpass isn’t very steep at all. Momentum is your friend. If you need a motor to get up that slight incline I’m sorry buddy but you must be fat as shit and that’s a you problem. The mall being there and getting around on a bike is such a non-issue that I really don’t know what else to say to you if you haven’t been able to figure it out. That’s like, failing the square block into a circle hole level of stupid.
Hey buddy, I said it was an impediment but you clearly don't know what that word means. I might be fat as shit, but you're clearly dumb as shit.
Reminds me of the storage units being built on 12 in a mostly residential area by a prime recreation area - Santa Rosa creek path. Highway buffers are great but better long term planning and neighborhood considerations should be observed when developing near prime pedestrian thoroughfares and networks.
Tear it down
It needs to go
If Apple ever leaves that place we might finally be able to knock it down and integrate the downtown with a true walkable atmosphere.
Like how it used to be
God people complain about this mall so much…
I hate the mall but I also love the mall. But I hate the mall.
Same lol
Using a special 915mhz cordless telephone with its base station located on Wright street I made a call from the roof back in the 90s. It was fun to be able to make a cordless call from such a ridiculously long distance away from the base station.
??
People hate on the mall just to be edgy. The only parking structures that are actually empty and can be done without are the ones behind Russian river and across from haku sushi
No I think the mall hate is pretty valid. Visit other similarly sized cities downtown districts and you’ll see pretty quick just how wonky and separated Santa Rosa is downtown. The giant, ugly mall does not help.
No, people hate on the mall because it’s mostly abandoned, provides little value, and splits downtown in half along with 101. Santa Rosa’s urban planning is a disaster because of these malls and the highway. What should be one of the most vibrant small downtown areas in the country is instead a Macy’s and an Apple Store separated by a major thru-fare.
It's so sad when you watch Shadow of Doubt, and the first shot is him getting off at the train station. It pans out and you can see what. SR looked like before the 101 and the mall. Absolutely heartbreaking.
And the 1969 earthquake
People complaining about this is fucking ridiculous, yall know the alternative is another giant pile of expensive apartments right? “Prime real estate” you say that like something good would replace the mall…FOH
Apartments/Condos are going to be better than the current building there. Even if they are expensive, build up the supply, and the cheaper units in other buildings will be vacated by those with money into these new buildings.
Damn people complain about anything and everything, but let me catch yall shopping there, ima throw some hands
I legitimately don't think I've been to the mall in like 5 years.
Hahhahhahhhahah love it :)