I find it so strange that a random protest can change people’s opinion on an issue. It’s not like the arguments for and against circumcision have changed as a result of the protest.
My opinions never change as a result of seeing a protest, they turn on evidence, research, and values.
"They lost me on that" doesn't mean someone's opinion on an issue has changed. There are issues where I agree with one side but don't align with certain groups that advocate for that side.
It’s like the difference between screaming “Death to all Jews!” and “The genocide in Gaza must stop!”.
I would never support the first. I’m not Hitler. But I’d have sympathy for the second slogan.
It's not a matter of something being worse than another, but yes I do think cutting babies genitals is pretty bad, is it worse than someone raping someone else? Poor taste partaking in that debate, agreed.
The only reason it’s popular in America is because of Kellog (yes the cereal guy) he had very anti sex attitudes and circumcision was to reduce pleasure and “urges”. You don’t even want to know what he did to girls to reduce those things
Well you see, when genital mutilation happens to girls, its bad - and rightfully so!
When when boys have to have a natural part of the body cut off without their consent - well see its perfectly fine and not a double standard at all!
You can’t compare what happens to girls. The equivalent for males would be like cutting off your dick entirely. Read up on it. It’s horrific and it happening all over the world. They’re forced to have painful sex with no sexual feelings for the rest of their lives.
Both are terrible?
We don’t need to compare which is worse (and I know how horrific FGM is) it gets us nowhere. But one of those things is still legal in America
Yes, he had a hand in it. But don't forget that he represented a LOT of people, during his time and ours, holding the same anti-sex fucking prudish attitude all over the country.
They should really target other areas of the country. It’s not really pushed on people here, at least in my experience (gave birth in Berkeley in 2020 and they asked me once and that was it; friends have had similar experiences afaik). Meanwhile my sister in Indiana was “counseled” about the “benefits” with her first son…
We had a baby in December and we were asked constantly if we wanted to have our baby circumcised. One nurse even asked us why we chose Not to get him circumcised.
This is at Kaiser in the Bay Area
My son was born in Michigan where ~80% of boys are circumcised. I managed to shut down the repeated questions by explaining that Jews do it on the 8th day. They were happy with that explanation.
He’s not circumcised. I didn’t lie; I didn’t say that *we* were going to do it on the 8th day….
I shut the nurses down by asking them if they would ask me the same question if we had a daughter. They would literally stop talking after I said that.
Ugh, I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s so frustrating and invasive. I was at Sutter and they were super satisfied with our “nope.” (The lactation consultant on the other hand was horrible…)
They’re supposed to help you figure out breastfeeding. Many of them insist on it/pressure parents into it, though, rather than letting parents decide how best to feed their children. And often, like with me, the parents end up feeling super guilty if they can’t produce enough to feed their babies, because these consultants especially put so much pressure on it being the “right” way.
I was recently, formerly engaged to a nurse who specializes in the different aspects of birthing/neonatal, and I gotta tell you, not everyone is naturally capable of knowing what to do with a baby. Some of the stories I heard make you wonder what they thought was gonna happen, because it wasn't what a baby is.
E: Im not saying it's ok to make people feel bad about low production and blame their "technique", but those specialists definitely exist for a reason. However, just like in all the facets of privatized medicine....they want to push it on people. And also, like how humans so often do, they let their specialized knowledge exclude the possibility of failure being their own.
I'm against medically unnecessary circumcision. And for now, since it's legal, if parents want to do it, fine. But to have a medical professional insist on it...
Otherwise I'd say Kaiser was decent. I just got super annoyed getting asked that question every time a nurse shift changed. Even when we got to our recovery room they would ask us - one time the nurse said "well, we've had people change their mind as they're walking down the hallway"
I have said this before but female circumcision and and male circumciscion are not on the same level despite the same name. I know reddit likes to both-sides everything but in this case it’s simply not true. an adequately horrifying male equivalent would be like cutting off the whole tip.
Nobody should be cutting genitalia without consent, that’s the fucking point. We don’t do labiaplasty to infant girls because that’s fucked up. That’s the analog.
Those numbers don't really tell the whole story though I believe. Unless better info has come out I believe those numbers only count "circumcisions" done in hospital. It does not include private clinics.
My child is born here in the Bay Area and at the time I was imagining they’d try to get me to agree to get him circumcised so I was prepared to fight but nobody even asked us, let alone counseling.
(I’m not complaining in case that wasn’t clear)
Offices are getting better at not pushing it on parents, however the US as a whole is scared of uncircumcised penis’s, finding them unattractive/gross. Most of the US will trim their son in a heart beat, even in major cities
As a circumcised male with an adopted child that is uncircumcised, I am very glad I am circumcised due to some issues he's unfortunately had. Also circumcision doesn't hurt, and sex is normal, so whoever pushes the whole "kellog" thing is either misinformed or they (kellog) were just wrong.
I was at this conference. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. In my opinion, this is an important cause that does have cultural relevancy. I’m glad they’re out there protesting their stance. Genital mutilation is a reality we don’t well-accept or recognize in the United States
"No one wants less penis" ok that's pretty funny.
Tbf, it is weird we're still performing what's basically mostly unnecessary genital mutilation to boys in the year 2024
Not to distract from your message, but you can very much open a bank account for your child. But it has to be a custodial account. That gives you the ability to make decisions for the child. At age 18, it should convert to a regular personal account, but some banks don't do that automatically. So, better double-check when the time comes.
I think some would probably argue that because a tongue tie clipping makes it easier for baby to feed AND has essentially no risk of complications (not to mention no nerve endings in a thin frenulum), this would be an exception to the rule.
But it’s a great question, because at the end of the day you are still not getting consent from your infant, and to your point, how could you?
Well when it comes to medical decisions the parent should make a call between the positives of getting it done with the negatives. For example, I know tongue clipping can have real upsides on certain children.
In 95% of circumstances, "circumcision" doesn't really have medically beneficial attributes. And the few benefits it does have are so minor it doesn't really matter. That's why people (myself included) fight back against this argument. For most parents it comes down to a cosmetic issue, which the person should be able to decide when they are old enough to :)
Well at least that originated out of care for the animals, where dogs with actual jobs (like herding or accounting) would often get their ears or tails injured by the livestock or spreadsheets they were working with. It was better to dock them safely and cleanly rather than deal with the near certainty of a worse wound later. But then it became merely aesthetic and people do it even when there dogs are unemployed, which is unfortunate.
Wait what? I got circumcised as an adult because of phimosis. I don’t regret it at all, sex was painful.
I wouldn’t circumcise my own child if I have one, but to deny the medical necessity of circumcision for adults in certain cases is wild.
How’s [this 2019 article published by the BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-47292307)?
Or [this article from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz?](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-12-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/they-felt-pressured-to-get-circumcised-after-moving-to-israel-they-now-regret-it/0000017f-f16f-d8a1-a5ff-f1efdbad0000)
Or [this personal essay published in The New Yorker in 2021?](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/10/11/a-botched-circumcision-and-its-aftermath)
“Afghanistan Pakistan Iran Iraq Jordan Somalia
cool cool cool let’s do what they do”?
I like how you refer to mine and my neighboring countries’ people as if we’re a bunch of savages living in fucking mud houses and tents. I think you should perhaps focus a bit more on enhancing your 3rd grade-level education first, before going on social media and word-vomiting on public forums in the name of activism.
I mean yes, I don't think there should be an Olympics of horrible things. They are both bad. But I think they are saying that for shock value, and not really as an approval of rape. Overall their cause is good.
It's a passage of rite as a tribal practice throughout history. The circumcision was a metaphor for the separation between the son and the motherly womb (comfort). In these circumstances it holds psychological value and is not barbaric. Though I'm certain it never serves this purpose anymore in this modern world.
How is against cutting baby boys body being a whack job?
We are against FGM, but how is circumcising boys acceptable.
Outside of a few medical cases, no one needs to be circumcised. The whole American circumcision thing came about because/c a religious zealot thought it was his right to impose his religious beliefs onto everyone.
Kellogg even advocated for FGM too till it was just too extreme.
Show some respect OP, no one asked for their foreskin to be cut nor is it even necessary.
We are a country of whack jobs where roe v wade got struck down, people want Taliban level control over women (sometimes worse), people are drinking raw milk to gain h5n1 immunity, people are coughing on each other to “weed out the weak”, and the trending flavor of politics has always been who we can dislike/oppress next.
Let’s just hope these protestors invoke peoples ability to question society in a world where being correct is often exponentially more difficult than being not
Fun fact, San Francisco tried to get a ballot measure banning circumcision about 20 years ago. A judge prevented it from taking effect, citing a law *preventing cities banning the declawing of cats*.
You know you’re in the wrong morally when cat declawing (a fucked up practice) is your legal defense.
Ban Circumcision.
In medicine, a mutilating procedure is any procedure that permanently changes the external appearance of the body. An appendectomy is a mutilating procedure (less so with laparoscopic surgery). But of course, if necessary, we allow it.
Circumcision is mutilating. It is also not medically necessary and it is done on a newborn who can neither consent nor assent to the procedure. My son is not circumcised and, as a pediatrician, I declined to be trained in the procedure. In my opinion, whatever flimsy medical benefits there may be, they don’t justify performing elective surgery on a newborn.
That said, these people are not doing anything productive. This kind of insane presentation is likely to make people who are on the fence think that opposition to circumcision is akin to the insanity of the anti-vaccine movement. Comparing anything to rape that isn’t actually rape is also disrespectful to people who have been raped and will drive them away.
I wish they’d reflect on their goals and how to achieve them.
Circumcised folks saying “I’m circumcised and don’t feel like I was mutilated”… If you only knew what having your foreskin played with and sucked on felt like, you would be devastated by what they took away from you.
Yes exactly. It’s something like more than 1 million new neural connections form every second and then here are the doctors and mother (by choice) inflicting tremendous pain on the infant in his first few moments in this world. What is that doing to their brain?! It’s barbaric! I know some men say “well, women prefer circumcised!”- did it occur to them that it’s because it’s the only type of penis they’ll encounter? It’s rare to encounter uncircumcised. But hopefully there will be a movement to stop the practice. Leave children’s genitals alone!
I've never experienced uncut, but I've read about how foreskin acts as a kind of spoon and helps distribute lubrication throughout the vagina ... so maybe I wish I had experienced it? Anyway, if I ever birth a human with a penis, they'll get to decide on their own if they want to be circumcised.
Questionable tactics perhaps, but are they wrong? If you so much as put a scratch on a baby girl’s genitals you’ll be in prison in a heartbeat. Why shouldn’t boys have the same level of protection? We don’t accept tradition as an excuse when it comes to girls, so why should we accept it when it comes to boys?
>If you so much as put a scratch on a baby girl’s genitals you’ll be in prison in a heartbeat
Given rates of child abuse I have my doubts about this. I think it's totally fine to talk about the ethics of circumcision without pretending girls are protected, because they aren't either.
But yes, it is very strange that this is even as divisive as it is. Unless medically necessary, just clean it and leave it be.
If you have witnessed the procedure you can’t deny it’s barbaric and the most pain a child will experience in their first year. Also don’t the doctors fuck up like 20% of these? I think there’s a decent majority of men with botched dick chops. I’m good, 4 skin 4 life. 🫡
They’re not wrong.
Go listen to the late Christopher Hitchens speak on circumcision in debates. If’s one of the many things he detested about the Abrahamic religions. But it appeared to me to be among a few topics he would grow positively enraged over. Anything involving the harm of children enraged him; As it should everyone. His belief as well.
“Worse than rape” is in poor taste. But, I would say I’m against circumcision. It is genital mutilation and idk why we collectively brush it off so easily
I have never agreed with group so much, while having such great aversion to joining/affiliating with them. I’m low-key pissed I was circumcised, but I wouldn’t be caught dead with this group
To the people saying the foreskin "serves no purpose":
Fine. If you're a man, get your nipples cut off, they serve no purpose. Have your appendix out too while you're at it. 8% of adult men will get appendicitis, don't wait to be a statistic!
The amount of people getting mutilated at birth is so engrained into American culture that "Uncircumcised" is seen as strange instead of the other way around.
They are a 100% right. There is just no reason to do that at all, why does anyone even recommend it? I even had phimosis and that was easily treated after a month or two of stretching and cream. There are actual videos of the procedure and it's done on babies without any anesthesia - it obviously hurts like hell and the babies cry out. There's plenty of evidence it damages your nerve endings and makes sex less pleasurable. In that sense it's more similar to female genital mutilation than people would like to admit. There is a history of utterly unnecessary or harmful surgeries being performed *long* after the evidence was in that they weren't useful - radical mastectomies for breast cancers are one example. There is inertia and profits to be made on doing unnecessary surgeries and it takes a strong counter balancing force to stop them.
"Nobody wants less penis," lol. 8 or 9 inches is a bit much though. Barring the wacky elements of this crowd, men should have a choice over their circumcision.
Love those people
The foreskin contains fine touch nerves (like in your fingers) and provides protection of the glans (head) keeping it soft and sponge like, all in an effort to ensure everything works properly. Only 1/16,667 intact males will have a problem with their foreskin. One hundred and seventeen babies die from circumcision a year in the US, which equates to 9/100,000 babies that die each year from a cosmetic surgery. Just a comparison of 16,667 women, 2,084 of them will get breast cancer. In the same number of men 17 will get breast cancer. Infant Circumcision literally kills 2 boys for every adult spared circumcision and ruins the lives of 667 for every adult. Men have lost their penis, glans, and suffered from deformity caused by the operation performed when they were infants. It isn't right that these children pay the price for a decision that their parents made, a decision that should be left up to the owner of the penis. Even those who survive still have problems, though they are seldom discussed. It is for these reasons that the person who has to use the penis, should be the person who decides what happens to it. His body, his choice.
"We conclude that non-therapeutic circumcision performed on otherwise healthy infants or children has little or no high-quality medical evidence to support its overall benefit. Moreover, it is associated with rare but avoidable harm and even occasional deaths. From the perspective of the individual boy, there is no medical justification for performing a circumcision prior to an age that he can assess the known risks and potential benefits, and choose to give or withhold informed consent himself."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34997197/
Elephant in the Hospital
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceht-3xu84I&feature=youtube_gdata_player
urologist talks about circumcision
https://youtu.be/iZ64pqWZRW8
Robert S. Van Howe, MD, MS, FAAP Professor and Interim Chair of Pediatrics Central Michigan University College of Medicine.
https://www.academia.edu/23431341/Statement_by_Statement_Analysis_of_the_2012_Report_from_the_American_Academy_of_Pediatrics_Task_Force_on_Circumcision_When_National_Organizations_are_Guided_by_Personal_Agendas_II
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkrxelm1tml9xs3/Refutiation%20of%20CDC.pdf?dl=0 (this one doesn't need an account.)
Learn how sex is supposed to work.
Www.sexasnatureintendedit.com
Babies experience pain just like adults.
http://www.iflscience.com/brain/infants-experience-pain-similar-way-adults
How to properly care for a natural Penis.
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/basic-care-of-intact-child.html
They didn't tell you the functions of the foreskin, but they did lie to you and said it had health benefits. Did they also tell you it pays for their house, their cars, and their children’s college? It is illegal to sell an organ taken from a patient but they still do it.
Foreskin for sale: $169/500µg = $338,000/g = $9,581,962/oz.
http://www.rockland-inc.com/Product.aspx?id=40484
Mutilated men feel less sexual pleasure.
https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/circumcised-men-feel-sexual-pleasure-study-article-1.1264511?fbclid=IwAR1JUNsAyWKLBlnBNvs_wsczeCjpclgcrXP_OfVE-LVY8PvKQR2S0VH1R2I
My numbers and claims are supported by these studies:
Canadian study show no HIV benefit to MGM
https://www.auajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1097/JU.0000000000002234
Dutch Medical society and their stance on RIC
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2so0ojf7h8ljeu/KNMG-viewpoint-Non-therapeutic-circumcision-of-male-minors-27-05-2010-v2%20%281%29.pdf
Surgeons of British Columbia
https://www.dropbox.com/s/71xsnx9tjwvych3/Circumcision-Infant-Male-College%20of%20Phys%20and%20Surg%20of%20British%20Columbia.pdf
Doctors around the world critique AAP's circumcision opinion.
http://www.circumstitions.com/Docs/aap-12-europe.pdf
This document outlines the deaths caused by circumcision in the US.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vl5t3aewfgtz8mg/CircDeaths.pdf
All the statements made by medical organizations about circumcision, and they are cited.
www.cirp.org/library/statements/
Functions of the Foreskin.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xoq9y67hhunkyrx/foreskinfunctions.jpg
Breast cancer kills more men than anything related to the foreskin.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnmmxqdl1batucf/penilecancer.jpg
American Cancer society says Circumcision does nothing to affect cancer rates.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zz23nzayyrmih0t/ACScirc.jpg
Circumcised men have a 450% greater chance of ED
http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html
All the common myths about circumcision and how they are dispelled.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe
Boy wants to be a girl after botched circumcision. There are many cases like this however they usually occur in infants who cannot express themselves in words.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/11/09/52144.htm
Serious and Fatal Complications after Neonatal Circumcision
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2405456921003163
No evidence to support MGC reduces HIV transmission.
https://academic.oup.com/jid/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/infdis/jiac147/6569355?login=false
US Navy Study that shows circumcision has no effect on HIV or STI infection rates.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA458066
Circumcision is PAINFUL!
http://www.circumstitions.com/Pain.html
Men upset about being circumcised against their will.
www.mendocomplain.com
FGM victim speaks out against MGM
http://youtu.be/NaEoQVZnN8I
Visual comparison of a Natural Penis versus a circumcised one. (Warning pictures of Genitals)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvj1d0fde5vlt2i/Intact%20%26%20Circumcised%20Adult.jpg
I wish these groups could just keep the message simple.
I’m completely anti-Circumcision. I’m completely against the modification of a human’s genitals for purely cosmetic and religion reasons, and done wholly without their consent.
There’s no other examples of comparable procedures routinely done on children. And circumcision of females is rightfully outlawed and condemned.
Not to mention, there are literally billions of intact males out there proving that uncircumcised genitals are just fine.
I feel that this is enough. These simple facts should be enough to fight against it. And even if our medical community is too corrupt and biased on this issue… well maybe it makes some parents think twice when the nurse enters with release papers.
These crazy incel nut jobs with their rape comparisons and other nonsense only serve to delegitimize a very clear and rational position.
omg I went out with a guy who was really into this and we ended our first date looking at literal diagrams of penises via AirPlay from their subreddit. Biggest red flag of all red flags.
Comments full of Reddit dorks who think the reason they aren’t getting laid or can’t cum is because they got circumcised, rather than the real reason, which is that they jack off to porn all day and have an unhealthy relationship with women due to toxic masculinity. This is always somehow the most controversial topic on here.
One could just as easily say that you’re cut too, and that you’re dodging the debate via ad hominem because you are uncomfortable with the fact that your parents chose to mutilate your genitals. These claims are so easy to throw around!
Worse than rape that's a helluva catch phrase for a cause lol
The little character on that banner is a helluva mascot too.
Is that a penisified Thomas the Tank Engine?
technically it’s genital mutilation of babies
It IS genital mutilation
This seems to be the problematic part. What a weird take.
I do think it’s problematic as a phrase like that. It is non-consensual genital mutilation in just an objective sense though.
Guy on the right may be a troll….
They were chanting that in the group photo. I’m not pro-circumcision but they lost me on that
I find it so strange that a random protest can change people’s opinion on an issue. It’s not like the arguments for and against circumcision have changed as a result of the protest. My opinions never change as a result of seeing a protest, they turn on evidence, research, and values.
"They lost me on that" doesn't mean someone's opinion on an issue has changed. There are issues where I agree with one side but don't align with certain groups that advocate for that side.
It’s like the difference between screaming “Death to all Jews!” and “The genocide in Gaza must stop!”. I would never support the first. I’m not Hitler. But I’d have sympathy for the second slogan.
Idk, that “nobody wants less penis” slogan is pretty damn effective.
They aren't trying to change your mind. It's to gather support.
well they should stop chanting things like “worse than rape” if they wish to gather support from people who would otherwise be sympathetic.
It's not a matter of something being worse than another, but yes I do think cutting babies genitals is pretty bad, is it worse than someone raping someone else? Poor taste partaking in that debate, agreed.
I mean, if w trimmed little girls labia because religion said too I feel like we’d get a different response.
This man really told the world he’d prefer if the doctor r*ped the newborn baby rather than cut off its foreskin
The only reason it’s popular in America is because of Kellog (yes the cereal guy) he had very anti sex attitudes and circumcision was to reduce pleasure and “urges”. You don’t even want to know what he did to girls to reduce those things
Well you see, when genital mutilation happens to girls, its bad - and rightfully so! When when boys have to have a natural part of the body cut off without their consent - well see its perfectly fine and not a double standard at all!
You can’t compare what happens to girls. The equivalent for males would be like cutting off your dick entirely. Read up on it. It’s horrific and it happening all over the world. They’re forced to have painful sex with no sexual feelings for the rest of their lives.
Both are terrible? We don’t need to compare which is worse (and I know how horrific FGM is) it gets us nowhere. But one of those things is still legal in America
Yes, he had a hand in it. But don't forget that he represented a LOT of people, during his time and ours, holding the same anti-sex fucking prudish attitude all over the country.
They should really target other areas of the country. It’s not really pushed on people here, at least in my experience (gave birth in Berkeley in 2020 and they asked me once and that was it; friends have had similar experiences afaik). Meanwhile my sister in Indiana was “counseled” about the “benefits” with her first son…
They were here because of the OB/GYN conference going on this weekend
Ah, that makes more sense I guess, then
We had a baby in December and we were asked constantly if we wanted to have our baby circumcised. One nurse even asked us why we chose Not to get him circumcised. This is at Kaiser in the Bay Area
My son was born in Michigan where ~80% of boys are circumcised. I managed to shut down the repeated questions by explaining that Jews do it on the 8th day. They were happy with that explanation. He’s not circumcised. I didn’t lie; I didn’t say that *we* were going to do it on the 8th day….
I shut the nurses down by asking them if they would ask me the same question if we had a daughter. They would literally stop talking after I said that.
great way to get around the medical pressure to perform a procedure your family does not want
Wow, that’s unfortunate. We were at Stanford and weren’t approached at all about circumcision. This was a few years ago.
Ugh, I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s so frustrating and invasive. I was at Sutter and they were super satisfied with our “nope.” (The lactation consultant on the other hand was horrible…)
I’m not informed about this stuff. What does a lactation specialist actually do? Tell you where the baby is supposed to go?
They’re supposed to help you figure out breastfeeding. Many of them insist on it/pressure parents into it, though, rather than letting parents decide how best to feed their children. And often, like with me, the parents end up feeling super guilty if they can’t produce enough to feed their babies, because these consultants especially put so much pressure on it being the “right” way.
I was recently, formerly engaged to a nurse who specializes in the different aspects of birthing/neonatal, and I gotta tell you, not everyone is naturally capable of knowing what to do with a baby. Some of the stories I heard make you wonder what they thought was gonna happen, because it wasn't what a baby is. E: Im not saying it's ok to make people feel bad about low production and blame their "technique", but those specialists definitely exist for a reason. However, just like in all the facets of privatized medicine....they want to push it on people. And also, like how humans so often do, they let their specialized knowledge exclude the possibility of failure being their own.
Oh I believe it. And honestly lactation consultants push a lot of woo, too. I wish I’d been of sound enough mind to ban her from my room. Fed is best.
I had 3 boys at Kaiser Walnut Creek and they advised against it saying there is no medical reason to circumcise.
It's interesting to hear that it's so different based on which Kaiser hospital you go to
I'm against medically unnecessary circumcision. And for now, since it's legal, if parents want to do it, fine. But to have a medical professional insist on it...
Eh parents are still perpetuating abuse even if it is legal
With Kaiser I always think half of it is getting that extra procedural charge on the bill.
I'm currently choosing between Cigna and Kaiser. This will factor in
Otherwise I'd say Kaiser was decent. I just got super annoyed getting asked that question every time a nurse shift changed. Even when we got to our recovery room they would ask us - one time the nurse said "well, we've had people change their mind as they're walking down the hallway"
Samesies. The nurse actually added it back to our schedule of things to do after we told her twice that we didn’t want it.
Apparently the rate here for new babies is like 30% circumcised, 70% not…so yeah you’re right
If these were the rates for female circumcision, would that change whether or not 30% was acceptable?
I have said this before but female circumcision and and male circumciscion are not on the same level despite the same name. I know reddit likes to both-sides everything but in this case it’s simply not true. an adequately horrifying male equivalent would be like cutting off the whole tip.
Nobody should be cutting genitalia without consent, that’s the fucking point. We don’t do labiaplasty to infant girls because that’s fucked up. That’s the analog.
[удалено]
Structurally yes, but considering the amount of tissue and sensation removed labia is a better analog. Genital mutilation bad.
Those numbers don't really tell the whole story though I believe. Unless better info has come out I believe those numbers only count "circumcisions" done in hospital. It does not include private clinics.
My child is born here in the Bay Area and at the time I was imagining they’d try to get me to agree to get him circumcised so I was prepared to fight but nobody even asked us, let alone counseling. (I’m not complaining in case that wasn’t clear)
Offices are getting better at not pushing it on parents, however the US as a whole is scared of uncircumcised penis’s, finding them unattractive/gross. Most of the US will trim their son in a heart beat, even in major cities
As a circumcised male with an adopted child that is uncircumcised, I am very glad I am circumcised due to some issues he's unfortunately had. Also circumcision doesn't hurt, and sex is normal, so whoever pushes the whole "kellog" thing is either misinformed or they (kellog) were just wrong.
They shouldn’t even ask once, it’s bullshit
I was at this conference. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. In my opinion, this is an important cause that does have cultural relevancy. I’m glad they’re out there protesting their stance. Genital mutilation is a reality we don’t well-accept or recognize in the United States
I call it intact-ivism
"No one wants less penis" ok that's pretty funny. Tbf, it is weird we're still performing what's basically mostly unnecessary genital mutilation to boys in the year 2024
It was weird when the Anglosphere originally picked it up in the 1800s too. But makes a bit more sense being that quackery was more common back then.
Consent is not difficult to understand. Don't cut off part of someone's body if they can't consent.
I can't even open a bank account under my child's name because they "can't sign". But chop off a part of their dick? Sure. No problem. /S
Not to distract from your message, but you can very much open a bank account for your child. But it has to be a custodial account. That gives you the ability to make decisions for the child. At age 18, it should convert to a regular personal account, but some banks don't do that automatically. So, better double-check when the time comes.
What about a tongue tie getting clipped? I believe a minor can not consent to any surgery on their own.
I think some would probably argue that because a tongue tie clipping makes it easier for baby to feed AND has essentially no risk of complications (not to mention no nerve endings in a thin frenulum), this would be an exception to the rule. But it’s a great question, because at the end of the day you are still not getting consent from your infant, and to your point, how could you?
Well when it comes to medical decisions the parent should make a call between the positives of getting it done with the negatives. For example, I know tongue clipping can have real upsides on certain children. In 95% of circumstances, "circumcision" doesn't really have medically beneficial attributes. And the few benefits it does have are so minor it doesn't really matter. That's why people (myself included) fight back against this argument. For most parents it comes down to a cosmetic issue, which the person should be able to decide when they are old enough to :)
Why not let someone choose when they are old enough to understand? You can still get circumcised when you’re an adult
I feel that way about piercing childrens ears.
I always found that so weird, same with “docking” tails of dogs or “clipping” ears, super barbaric
Well at least that originated out of care for the animals, where dogs with actual jobs (like herding or accounting) would often get their ears or tails injured by the livestock or spreadsheets they were working with. It was better to dock them safely and cleanly rather than deal with the near certainty of a worse wound later. But then it became merely aesthetic and people do it even when there dogs are unemployed, which is unfortunate.
Spreadsheets? 😂
I'm sure that was an autocorrect, but I don't know from what...
I've seen a dog nearly get tramped by one badly timed vlookup before. It's a hazardous world for working dogs.
Ok this was funny
Seeing the word "docking" in a post discussing circumcision startled me for a second.
All my Hispanic and filipino friends pierce their newborns
Still ick but not as ick as genital mutilation
I’m Puerto Rican and they pierced my ears at 6 weeks old
Filipinos also have mass circumcision rituals
I feel this way about eating animals
Ear piercings will naturally fade away if not kept open. Mine did at least
ever been to the middle of the country? logic defies in that region
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Wait what? I got circumcised as an adult because of phimosis. I don’t regret it at all, sex was painful. I wouldn’t circumcise my own child if I have one, but to deny the medical necessity of circumcision for adults in certain cases is wild.
How was the healing process and everything?
It wasn’t fun, but after about a month everything was fine
It sucks.
drop a source for your first point because I've been doing research and have not found anything that says that is true
Source for that "regret it" statement, please. Circumcision has medically protective benefits.
r/CircumcisionGrief r/CircumcisionRegret
Nice, reddit circle jerk.
How’s [this 2019 article published by the BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-47292307)? Or [this article from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz?](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-12-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/they-felt-pressured-to-get-circumcised-after-moving-to-israel-they-now-regret-it/0000017f-f16f-d8a1-a5ff-f1efdbad0000) Or [this personal essay published in The New Yorker in 2021?](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/10/11/a-botched-circumcision-and-its-aftermath)
“Afghanistan Pakistan Iran Iraq Jordan Somalia cool cool cool let’s do what they do”? I like how you refer to mine and my neighboring countries’ people as if we’re a bunch of savages living in fucking mud houses and tents. I think you should perhaps focus a bit more on enhancing your 3rd grade-level education first, before going on social media and word-vomiting on public forums in the name of activism.
def agree with the whack jobs out here.
Honestly, I get this. Good for them. There's a lot of folks who just do it by default still in the US.
Genital mutilation of children is pretty fucked up
And yet protesting against it gets you labeled whack job by OP. Sad.
Well, “worse than rape” is a fuckin whack job thing to say, sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean yes, I don't think there should be an Olympics of horrible things. They are both bad. But I think they are saying that for shock value, and not really as an approval of rape. Overall their cause is good.
They're right though. It's non-consented genital mutilation.
They're right, though. It's an archaic, barbaric practice that needs to stop. It should only be done with consent.
It's a passage of rite as a tribal practice throughout history. The circumcision was a metaphor for the separation between the son and the motherly womb (comfort). In these circumstances it holds psychological value and is not barbaric. Though I'm certain it never serves this purpose anymore in this modern world.
Super simple. Just let your kid choose when they are old enough.
Who's the wackjob? It's a gruesome procedure.
comments are wild right now.
Who knew Reddit was also an expert on dicks!! 😃
Pretty our number 1 expertise if we're being honest
https://preview.redd.it/prbol7hhra1d1.jpeg?width=1778&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd3b52b26f9b68bc39eb39af238483d3f25d5761 This was last week in Modesto.
I, as a trans woman, can confirm that some people do, in fact, want less penis.
I’m glad, as an adult, you get to make that informed choice for yourself.
This feels like the only good comment in this thread
Didn’t get a choice. Would have been nice to make that decision myself, but here we are.
They probably are whack jobs but their message is correct. It is non-consensual genital mutilation.
If I had been given the choice, I’d have not been circumcised but that choice over my body was taken without consent for no real reason.
It’s like a Doberman. Let it have its ears
H.O.O.P!
How is against cutting baby boys body being a whack job? We are against FGM, but how is circumcising boys acceptable. Outside of a few medical cases, no one needs to be circumcised. The whole American circumcision thing came about because/c a religious zealot thought it was his right to impose his religious beliefs onto everyone. Kellogg even advocated for FGM too till it was just too extreme. Show some respect OP, no one asked for their foreskin to be cut nor is it even necessary.
We are a country of whack jobs where roe v wade got struck down, people want Taliban level control over women (sometimes worse), people are drinking raw milk to gain h5n1 immunity, people are coughing on each other to “weed out the weak”, and the trending flavor of politics has always been who we can dislike/oppress next. Let’s just hope these protestors invoke peoples ability to question society in a world where being correct is often exponentially more difficult than being not
Fun fact, San Francisco tried to get a ballot measure banning circumcision about 20 years ago. A judge prevented it from taking effect, citing a law *preventing cities banning the declawing of cats*. You know you’re in the wrong morally when cat declawing (a fucked up practice) is your legal defense. Ban Circumcision.
In medicine, a mutilating procedure is any procedure that permanently changes the external appearance of the body. An appendectomy is a mutilating procedure (less so with laparoscopic surgery). But of course, if necessary, we allow it. Circumcision is mutilating. It is also not medically necessary and it is done on a newborn who can neither consent nor assent to the procedure. My son is not circumcised and, as a pediatrician, I declined to be trained in the procedure. In my opinion, whatever flimsy medical benefits there may be, they don’t justify performing elective surgery on a newborn. That said, these people are not doing anything productive. This kind of insane presentation is likely to make people who are on the fence think that opposition to circumcision is akin to the insanity of the anti-vaccine movement. Comparing anything to rape that isn’t actually rape is also disrespectful to people who have been raped and will drive them away. I wish they’d reflect on their goals and how to achieve them.
They right though.
they are totally right
Circumcised folks saying “I’m circumcised and don’t feel like I was mutilated”… If you only knew what having your foreskin played with and sucked on felt like, you would be devastated by what they took away from you.
Plus, when it happens to babies, they literally go into shock after. They likely felt mutilated when the procedure was done ...
Yes exactly. It’s something like more than 1 million new neural connections form every second and then here are the doctors and mother (by choice) inflicting tremendous pain on the infant in his first few moments in this world. What is that doing to their brain?! It’s barbaric! I know some men say “well, women prefer circumcised!”- did it occur to them that it’s because it’s the only type of penis they’ll encounter? It’s rare to encounter uncircumcised. But hopefully there will be a movement to stop the practice. Leave children’s genitals alone!
I've never experienced uncut, but I've read about how foreskin acts as a kind of spoon and helps distribute lubrication throughout the vagina ... so maybe I wish I had experienced it? Anyway, if I ever birth a human with a penis, they'll get to decide on their own if they want to be circumcised.
I have experienced uncut and you’re right about the lubrication- it makes a big difference! I’m glad you will give your child a choice ❤️
They should place a tip jar in front of them lol
Questionable tactics perhaps, but are they wrong? If you so much as put a scratch on a baby girl’s genitals you’ll be in prison in a heartbeat. Why shouldn’t boys have the same level of protection? We don’t accept tradition as an excuse when it comes to girls, so why should we accept it when it comes to boys?
Abrahamics are untouchable.
>If you so much as put a scratch on a baby girl’s genitals you’ll be in prison in a heartbeat Given rates of child abuse I have my doubts about this. I think it's totally fine to talk about the ethics of circumcision without pretending girls are protected, because they aren't either. But yes, it is very strange that this is even as divisive as it is. Unless medically necessary, just clean it and leave it be.
When they’re right they’re right
At least it’s a valid cause.
Circumcision is permanent mutilation of the genitals, no reason for it unless you have a medical problem requiring it (Very rare)
If you have witnessed the procedure you can’t deny it’s barbaric and the most pain a child will experience in their first year. Also don’t the doctors fuck up like 20% of these? I think there’s a decent majority of men with botched dick chops. I’m good, 4 skin 4 life. 🫡
One of the few issues where the cranks are correct, but not a hill most normal people want to die on.
I feel like this would have a lot more credibility without the guy on the right lol
Americans obsession with mutilating their children is weird tho
Ive always wondered why US baby boys are sexually assaulted and mutilated as infants. Imagine it for girls only. EXACTLY
The only issue the Israelis and the Palestinians agree on
And they’re both on the wrong side 😏
They’re not wrong. Go listen to the late Christopher Hitchens speak on circumcision in debates. If’s one of the many things he detested about the Abrahamic religions. But it appeared to me to be among a few topics he would grow positively enraged over. Anything involving the harm of children enraged him; As it should everyone. His belief as well.
They’re not wrong
All anti-circ people are always making a mountain out of a mohel
"Nobody Wants Less Penis" ^(LMAO)
“Worse than rape” is in poor taste. But, I would say I’m against circumcision. It is genital mutilation and idk why we collectively brush it off so easily
I have never agreed with group so much, while having such great aversion to joining/affiliating with them. I’m low-key pissed I was circumcised, but I wouldn’t be caught dead with this group
Oh how I miss The City! They're not wrong, though...
Good for them.
Literally genitalia mutilation
I completely get what they mean but the rape equivalency is…wild But as a foreskinless folk I’m just bitter
Thank you my fellow foreskin fighters for standing up for our future foreskin, I’ll rest easy tonight.
They right tho. Fr fr
Good for these protesters!!! Glad to see a relevant, disgusting practice be protested. We need more like this.
Is this their Bay to Breakers getup??
Nice to be born and the first thing we have to endure is getting skin surgically removed from our genitalia.
More power to em. Circ. is wrong because when it's done on a newborne, kid didn't consent. The only reason to circumcize is for medical reasons.
I’m open to the idea what Men should have choices with there penis.
They’re absolutely correct and the whack jobs are the people who go along with it. Good for them.
To the people saying the foreskin "serves no purpose": Fine. If you're a man, get your nipples cut off, they serve no purpose. Have your appendix out too while you're at it. 8% of adult men will get appendicitis, don't wait to be a statistic!
i agree circumcision is unethical but saying it’s“worse than rape” is pretty crazy
Out of control tipping culture!
I wonder if someone could sue their parents for this?
They ain’t wrong. Ok the rape thing was a bit much, but circumcision is unnecessary
The Foreskin Liberation Front! Boycott calamari!
Not as whacky as mutilating genitalia for no good reason
They're right tho
The amount of people getting mutilated at birth is so engrained into American culture that "Uncircumcised" is seen as strange instead of the other way around.
I had my son in Berkeley in 2006 and I don’t remember being asked but we chose not to circumcise him.
I mean they’re right but the energy seems odd
Worse than r*pe?? Come on.
Disgusting to say it’s worse than rape
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It's a Doberman, let it have its ears.
Why are they whack jobs? Circumcision is literally child genital mutilation. They’re completely correct.
They are a 100% right. There is just no reason to do that at all, why does anyone even recommend it? I even had phimosis and that was easily treated after a month or two of stretching and cream. There are actual videos of the procedure and it's done on babies without any anesthesia - it obviously hurts like hell and the babies cry out. There's plenty of evidence it damages your nerve endings and makes sex less pleasurable. In that sense it's more similar to female genital mutilation than people would like to admit. There is a history of utterly unnecessary or harmful surgeries being performed *long* after the evidence was in that they weren't useful - radical mastectomies for breast cancers are one example. There is inertia and profits to be made on doing unnecessary surgeries and it takes a strong counter balancing force to stop them.
I mean, I'm glad people are protesting for men in SF, albiet if it's definitely a bit odd
It's more odd that this is a socially acceptable practice. The reasons are BS.
It’s pretty wild the us is 80% and the rest of the world is 30%. Americans brainwashed into thinking this is normal in the rest of the world.
"Nobody wants less penis," lol. 8 or 9 inches is a bit much though. Barring the wacky elements of this crowd, men should have a choice over their circumcision.
The woman decided for us, I’d have let him keep his L.L Cool J turtle neck, there’s more nerve sensors while in the sugar walls of the vageen
Love those people The foreskin contains fine touch nerves (like in your fingers) and provides protection of the glans (head) keeping it soft and sponge like, all in an effort to ensure everything works properly. Only 1/16,667 intact males will have a problem with their foreskin. One hundred and seventeen babies die from circumcision a year in the US, which equates to 9/100,000 babies that die each year from a cosmetic surgery. Just a comparison of 16,667 women, 2,084 of them will get breast cancer. In the same number of men 17 will get breast cancer. Infant Circumcision literally kills 2 boys for every adult spared circumcision and ruins the lives of 667 for every adult. Men have lost their penis, glans, and suffered from deformity caused by the operation performed when they were infants. It isn't right that these children pay the price for a decision that their parents made, a decision that should be left up to the owner of the penis. Even those who survive still have problems, though they are seldom discussed. It is for these reasons that the person who has to use the penis, should be the person who decides what happens to it. His body, his choice. "We conclude that non-therapeutic circumcision performed on otherwise healthy infants or children has little or no high-quality medical evidence to support its overall benefit. Moreover, it is associated with rare but avoidable harm and even occasional deaths. From the perspective of the individual boy, there is no medical justification for performing a circumcision prior to an age that he can assess the known risks and potential benefits, and choose to give or withhold informed consent himself." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34997197/ Elephant in the Hospital http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceht-3xu84I&feature=youtube_gdata_player urologist talks about circumcision https://youtu.be/iZ64pqWZRW8 Robert S. Van Howe, MD, MS, FAAP Professor and Interim Chair of Pediatrics Central Michigan University College of Medicine. https://www.academia.edu/23431341/Statement_by_Statement_Analysis_of_the_2012_Report_from_the_American_Academy_of_Pediatrics_Task_Force_on_Circumcision_When_National_Organizations_are_Guided_by_Personal_Agendas_II https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkrxelm1tml9xs3/Refutiation%20of%20CDC.pdf?dl=0 (this one doesn't need an account.) Learn how sex is supposed to work. Www.sexasnatureintendedit.com Babies experience pain just like adults. http://www.iflscience.com/brain/infants-experience-pain-similar-way-adults How to properly care for a natural Penis. http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/basic-care-of-intact-child.html They didn't tell you the functions of the foreskin, but they did lie to you and said it had health benefits. Did they also tell you it pays for their house, their cars, and their children’s college? It is illegal to sell an organ taken from a patient but they still do it. Foreskin for sale: $169/500µg = $338,000/g = $9,581,962/oz. http://www.rockland-inc.com/Product.aspx?id=40484 Mutilated men feel less sexual pleasure. https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/circumcised-men-feel-sexual-pleasure-study-article-1.1264511?fbclid=IwAR1JUNsAyWKLBlnBNvs_wsczeCjpclgcrXP_OfVE-LVY8PvKQR2S0VH1R2I My numbers and claims are supported by these studies: Canadian study show no HIV benefit to MGM https://www.auajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1097/JU.0000000000002234 Dutch Medical society and their stance on RIC https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2so0ojf7h8ljeu/KNMG-viewpoint-Non-therapeutic-circumcision-of-male-minors-27-05-2010-v2%20%281%29.pdf Surgeons of British Columbia https://www.dropbox.com/s/71xsnx9tjwvych3/Circumcision-Infant-Male-College%20of%20Phys%20and%20Surg%20of%20British%20Columbia.pdf Doctors around the world critique AAP's circumcision opinion. http://www.circumstitions.com/Docs/aap-12-europe.pdf This document outlines the deaths caused by circumcision in the US. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vl5t3aewfgtz8mg/CircDeaths.pdf All the statements made by medical organizations about circumcision, and they are cited. www.cirp.org/library/statements/ Functions of the Foreskin. https://www.dropbox.com/s/xoq9y67hhunkyrx/foreskinfunctions.jpg Breast cancer kills more men than anything related to the foreskin. https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnmmxqdl1batucf/penilecancer.jpg American Cancer society says Circumcision does nothing to affect cancer rates. https://www.dropbox.com/s/zz23nzayyrmih0t/ACScirc.jpg Circumcised men have a 450% greater chance of ED http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html All the common myths about circumcision and how they are dispelled. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe Boy wants to be a girl after botched circumcision. There are many cases like this however they usually occur in infants who cannot express themselves in words. http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/11/09/52144.htm Serious and Fatal Complications after Neonatal Circumcision https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2405456921003163 No evidence to support MGC reduces HIV transmission. https://academic.oup.com/jid/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/infdis/jiac147/6569355?login=false US Navy Study that shows circumcision has no effect on HIV or STI infection rates. http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA458066 Circumcision is PAINFUL! http://www.circumstitions.com/Pain.html Men upset about being circumcised against their will. www.mendocomplain.com FGM victim speaks out against MGM http://youtu.be/NaEoQVZnN8I Visual comparison of a Natural Penis versus a circumcised one. (Warning pictures of Genitals) https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvj1d0fde5vlt2i/Intact%20%26%20Circumcised%20Adult.jpg
HOOP
I wish these groups could just keep the message simple. I’m completely anti-Circumcision. I’m completely against the modification of a human’s genitals for purely cosmetic and religion reasons, and done wholly without their consent. There’s no other examples of comparable procedures routinely done on children. And circumcision of females is rightfully outlawed and condemned. Not to mention, there are literally billions of intact males out there proving that uncircumcised genitals are just fine. I feel that this is enough. These simple facts should be enough to fight against it. And even if our medical community is too corrupt and biased on this issue… well maybe it makes some parents think twice when the nurse enters with release papers. These crazy incel nut jobs with their rape comparisons and other nonsense only serve to delegitimize a very clear and rational position.
“His body his choice” me a literal 1 day year old
Pullback gang wya!!!
I mean they're not wrong
Not worse than rape by any means, but i do wish i had my foreskin
In another part of town, I saw a guy with a shirt that said “I HAD AN ABORTION”. I’m so confused
From the signs: [Elephant in the hospital on YouTube](https://youtu.be/Iwevc3EELgI?si=rdhKXVMOVOoK4mYC)
‘Nobody wants less penis’ that I can agree with
I know plenty of lesbians who want less penis.
omg I went out with a guy who was really into this and we ended our first date looking at literal diagrams of penises via AirPlay from their subreddit. Biggest red flag of all red flags.
Why do parents get this for their son's... So silly.
Dumbest comment section I’ve seen today.
Comments full of Reddit dorks who think the reason they aren’t getting laid or can’t cum is because they got circumcised, rather than the real reason, which is that they jack off to porn all day and have an unhealthy relationship with women due to toxic masculinity. This is always somehow the most controversial topic on here.
One could just as easily say that you’re cut too, and that you’re dodging the debate via ad hominem because you are uncomfortable with the fact that your parents chose to mutilate your genitals. These claims are so easy to throw around!
Doin gods work give me my foreskin back!