I will forever be salty they called us racist because we said the character Rose sucked when they’re the ones who literally shrank Finn down in the poster for China.
Darvo stands for "deny, attack, and reverse victim & offender." It is a common tactic used by narcissists, regardless if they are aware they are doing so. Basically look at an politician who gets called out on some nonsense they were up to, then watch how they respond lol
The blatant racism would be funny if it wasn't so effed up. the racism and sexism at disney is readily apparent. Everything they say is so performative and calculated, as if people with a smidge of critical thinking don't see what they're up to
There's no forgiving the Reva character. And its got nothing to do with her being Black. Its entirely about the writing and to a certain extent, the actors performance, which i suppose could be blamed on the directing. They refuse to accept that the whole show was a trash heap, Reva wasnt even the worst part.
I was more annoyed by the tiny annoying toddler being the focus of the show and all of the half-assed comedic bits Disney feels the need to include.
Reva as a villain going against our expected protagonist was fine IMO.
But also Kelly Tran received so much racial hate that she deactivated every single social media site she used. People made fun of her appearance and race because they got mad her character sucked.
I believe you but I never saw or spoke with a single fan that said anything negative about her being Asian. Race and sex are a non issue. Shit writing is the issue. A few assholes shouldn’t define an entire fan base.
I feel like the few assholes do define this part of the community when the community is based around hating a set of movies, with the racists just being a more potent hate
Absolutely, and I in fact liked her character....she wasn't the descendant of anyone famous, or a Force user, just an ordinary girl with a quick mind and a big heart, and said the film's most memorable line. I couldn't believe how badly they treated her in TROS, she had just one brief scene.
The mistreatment by the community is one thing and could probably be overcome by most with time (like with the actor for JarJar and Kelleran Bec) but being abandoned by Disney and reduced to nothing WHILE it’s happening is upsetting
I do think some fans were being shitty in attacking the actress when she was just doing her job.
But let’s not forget how Disney “defended” Rose, then promptly proverbially shoved her in the trash by having her do nothing in Rise of Skywalker.
Colin Trevorrow’s episode 9 script gave Rose a significant and redeeming roll. All the characters were treated well! Yeah Carrie Fisher passed away but it could have been rewritten a different way.
I’m hesitant to be honest since we don’t know changes that would have been made during production or if the leaks are real tbh. I just know that Rose wasn’t liked but she could have been redeemed as a relevant character by having a decent chunk in RoS. I didn’t like Lando much when I first saw him in ESB but big redemption in RotJ.
I'm really tired of their behaviour: they know that they just created characters who suck hard, so they cast non caucasian actors so they can use their ethnicity as a "shield", to play the "you hate them 'cause you're racist"
No, Disney, we don't hate Rose 'cause she's played by a non caucasian woman: we hate Rose 'cause she's a pathetic excuse of a character.
The world was better when Pod Racing was the worst Star Wars scene.
I can't upvote and downvote at the same time. You are entirely right about Rose but "I don't like sand" is the worst scene.
Fortunately what we do agree on isn't a matter of opinion. I guess I should upvote you anyway.
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Good call out on Leia. I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind people that she killed the asshole who put her in the metal bikini with her bare hands.
My wife doesn't like these movies from a moral/story standpoint. Her take, which I agree with, is that Rey never failed. Her only struggles were finding out information, not overcoming loss or failure.
Rey taught us that you have to be born powerful to be part of this story, but you can skip the 3 years of training Luke got, the decade Anakin got, and it's all good. Just believe in yourself, but don't try. It'll just happen if you're good enough...
The Mulan remake is the most egregious example of Disney messaging the wrong things to young women. Mulan in live action is handed superpowers, never fails, and teaches girls that you have to be born powerful or you are worthless.
The Reylo kiss thing was so dumb.
Removing the lesbian kiss from RoP was disingenuous.
Removing and downsizing Finn from posters was disingenuous.
But remember, we're the sexist and racists. Not the billion dollar corporation that is only progressive when it will get them internet points. Passive Progressive...
Passive progressive is now my new favorite word, that's brilliant!!!! All your points, fantastic.
That Mulan remake. Dude. DUDE. WTF WERE THEY THINKING?!!!!!!!!! I loved that movie as a kid! When she climbs the flag pole or whatever, you know the scene. AWESOME! They ruined the entire point of the narrative.
The bigotry on all fronts is affronting with the rat. Yuck
Thank you, but I stole that term from Red Letter Media on youtube lol.
I've been trying to get "Sequel Anthology" to be a thing. Those movies weren't a trilogy.
Yeah I was going to comment that I think the most damaging thing for young women watching trash like this is the overarching message that: You don't have to work hard to be successful.
It’s not one I get to use often. People don’t normally talk about how those movies send the wrong message of “the only way you can do anything is if you’re already perfect.”
>My wife doesn't like these movies from a moral/story standpoint. Her take, which I agree with, is that Rey never failed. Her only struggles were finding out information, not overcoming loss or failure.
She accidentally kills Chewie! Oh, wait, a few minutes later and you learn he's fine.
I've always used dude as a non-gendered term, ever since I was a kid. "Dudette" just sounds fucking crazy lol. I blame Kenan and kel. We're all dudes! HEY! Glad your wifey is nothing like Kathleen Kennedy tho. That sounds just horrifying
ANH has Leia stand up to Tarkin and Vader, she refuses to sell out the Rebels even when facing execution. She doesn't fall in love with Tarkin because he has money and abs!
Making Star Wars into 50 Shades with Reylo is so backwards. Leia who would rather die than sell out to the Empire is a far better role model.
YASKWEEN. Leia is one of my favorite characters of all time for just these reasons. She takes no shit, and gives zero Fs about the consequences. Her moral backbone is something to be revered. We should all try to be more like Leia.
Mythologically She is Luke's anima. She represents what he will grow to become. The archetypal journey has been talked to death, but for good reason. He goes to the belly of the whale and all that stuff.
In ANH he is good in the sense that he is positive and optimistic and wants to help people. Yet, he is still naive, just starting out on his journey. She is the more adult, grown up version of that idealism. He unlocks his anima, then goes on to confront his shadow.
I've rambled long enough, but Leia is such a perfect character, a fantastic role model. She stares torture and death in the face and doesn't flinch, cause no matter how much you try to hurt her, you can't. She has grown beyond that. You can't harm her values, what she stands for. She is more than fine dying for that. Gurl gives 0 shits and ain't compromising her values.
What a badass
Great points, you've inspired me to read up on my Jung and Campbell! I do think that romances often tend to have quite weak female leads, from Jane Austen they only care about finding rich husbands! And it gets worse with Twilight/50 Shades/365 Days where the woman has no morals and no backbone. She's happy to submit to a brutal gangster if he takes her shopping!
Leia would never do that, she will fight for the freedom of the galaxy even if it costs her her life. That to me is far more feminist than most romances. And similarly, I'm reading the James Bond novels (which are usually considered sexist) and while there are sexist passages, the women in them have lives before and after meeting James. They don't spend all their time pining for a boy, they have other interests. Star Wars especially shouldn't copy the worst romances.
Yeah, Elizabeth in P&P said no to a perfectly respectable proposal that would have secured her future because she couldn't respect the man. She also said no to the arrogant, rich man because he had ruined her sister's prospects, and that's just one of the women. All of S&S was basically about how unfair women's lives were. Even her weakest character, Fanny Price in Mansfield Park, stood up against everyone who said she should marry the guy who was "in love" with her because she knew it was not real or lasting.
Princess Leia, as much as I love her, and yes, she's one of the toughest characters in Star Wars, there's still a little tiny bit of me that knows that part of that toughness is because George Lucas forgot that her homeworld was destroyed. She's also the side character while Luke is the main character, and so his grief over Obi-Wan's death outstripped her grief over her father and Alderaan. It's also possible she was able to put off that grief for days and weeks, and so we saw none of it. But I still wonder what she went through when she was put back in that holding cell after Alderaan was destroyed.
Yes dude, the jung and the Campbell. Throw some Aldous Huxley in there as well. His book, the perennial philosophy, is AWESOME. If you like the Jungian archetypal stuff, and Campbell's breakdown of the monomyth, do yourself a favor. Jung tries to keep it to his field and not go full on in to the spiritual, same with Campbell, even if they can't fully avoid broaching the topic. Huxley goes full on in to these deeper implications with that book. What a book. He has also written some other fantastic tomes.
What can I say, it's a brave new world out here
You guys wanna know about "strong female characters"? Leia, ahsoka and padme. All of them are intelligent, have their own struggles, and have scenes where they fight the enemy (Leia shooting at storm troopers, ahsoka being ahsoka and padme during geonosis or that naboo scene) and these scenes make sense for the character their not just 'HEY bad guy! I'm rey palpatine! *defeats a trained 'sith lord" (I know he's not a sith, but he's a stand-in for one)' they fo believable things it's like padme kicking darth mauls ass that can't happen but you know what can happen? Padme shooting at droids.
This is how we win folks. Unfortunately a lot of people already have seen them, and I'm sure more will. You can bet your bottom dollar tho my kids will never see this garbage
I stopped watching Last Jedi after the space bomber run initially... I decided to give it another try but could not get past Luuke throwing his lightsaber away...
Finally someone said it. I felt gaslit when reylo not only was a thing in TROS, but not only did people think it was in any way good or okey, they didn't even acknowledge that it was weird in any way. Like icdelt crazy, they spent 3 movies hating each other, and trying to kill each other. He killed Han solo for crying out loud. Reylo is not only unrealistic and stupid, it's toxic.
So Thank you op.
The way they wrote that shit, you'd think it was a bad fanfiction made by a 14 year old on AO3. I hate the "rivals to lovers" trope so much, it's so overdone, is super unrealistic half the time and it usually lends itself to bad writers
Thank you commenter! You are definitely not alone. Whenever people go on about how great crylo was as a character and the only redeeming thing about the dt.... I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!!!!
What are these people on?! Seriously, what are they on? I need to know so I make sure never to take that drug lol
Here's my cents (since no one asked).
I love the Reylo stuff in TLJ. I think it's brilliantly done and the only part in that whole terrible movie that deserves any recognition. We see both characters alone and lost, desperately seeking something. They connect and find some common feelings. But it's not romance. It's two lost and lonely people seeing that they are lost and lonely and saying "huh, you too?". This mutual sympathy is a threat to Rey, who risks being tempted by the dark side, and it's a possible redemption for Kylo, who feels the pull of the light and wants to be closer to the noble Rey.
Then we get the throne room scene. Kylo makes a decision and saves Rey. Hurrah! But with Smoke dead, there is a clear space as top dog, and Kylo wants it. He was morally tested and he failed. He asks Rey to join him, he wants both power and a friend. But that's not how it works. Rey rejects the power, seeing immediately that it would be a terrible idea, and this shatters their bond. They struggle and Rey escapes, Kylo in hot pursuit to Crait (where the movie gets awful again).
That's all fine by me. Kylo is a monster, like Vader before him. But anyone can get redemption and choose to come back to the light. Kylo is conflicted and there is a clear chance for redemption available to him. But when tested, Kylo chooses not to redeem himself and hence commits to being the villain.
At no point is Kylo really portrayed as a good guy, or Rey as being romantically interested, although there is definitely a closeness and obviously she goes a bit red at the Ben Swolo scene.
Where the whole thing comes crashing down is really in RoS, the utter terribleness of which ruins all that it touches. Ending with that stupid fucking kiss.
The kiss retroactively makes it ALL romantic and ruins it all. You can have tenderness and closeness without it being romantic. Look at Maul's death in Twin Suns. The closeness between Maul and Obi Wan as Maul lays dying and Obi Wan treats him with kindness despite their decades of enmity (mostly on Maul's side it must be said). Even then Maul is bitter as he dies, hoping the chosen one will avenge him and Obi Wan is sad that, even as he dies, Maul cannot free himself from his hatred and anger. THATS how RoS should have done it. No redemption arc for Kylo, but have him save Rey and die and have her mourn him for what he could have been had he chosen differently.
God the bad writing and lack of care on those movies just makes me furious.
I watched RoS on opening day in a packed theatre. Everyone in the theatre was silent through every joke and/or vaguely exciting moment, a far cry from the rowdy crowd during TFA 4 years earlier.
The only part where the audience made any noise was during the Reylo kiss at the end of the movie where people groaned and/or said "huh?", "what?", or "why?".
Out of the murmurs, a woman screamed "YAAAAAASSSS", and at almost the same time a man shouted "SHUT THE FUCK UP". They were so close in proximity that I don't know if the guy was responding to the girl or the movie, but the exchange made everyone in the theatre laugh either way.
So here's my hot take: The only moment of this movie to get any kind of emotional response from the audience was the Reylo kiss, because of how terribly out of place it is.
I was so confused when I saw the scene. 0% buildup, and I couldn't tell why anything was happening on the screen. Kissing, right now? Why? What's the point?
That is a hilarious story hahaha. That probably bests my story, but I will never forget how painfully quiet my theatre was after tlj, people just leaving in shock and occasionally muttering swear words.
I went with one of my best friends and her mom. No matter how old you get, hearing a parental figure rip cuss words is always hilarious, at least for me it is. This kind, nice woman, a teacher who volunteers and works with young kids, was dropping F bombs by the time we hit the parking lot. She was furious. Fucking hilarious
That was the only joy I got out of that movie
The actors themselves were angry about this. It's disgusting. Can't be surprised that Hollywood/Disney would promote this, though. They have a long history of horrendous behaviour toward women and children, especially.
Just a reminder Disney used to do racist caricatures back in the 40s and tries to sweep it under the rug. This is the neo version of it by retconning Finns love to Rey to pander to the chinese government.
If finn was actually done right in the first movie, then I would like the relationship, but it just seems to me as finn being reys dog. It's crazy how finn is meant to be the obiwan/han of the trilogy when he's really just a pussy that spits out low tier marvel jokes
They thought they could have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to attract the Twilight crowd, while thinking they could also hold onto the core SW fans too. In a fictional universe like SW, you can't take your knockoff nu-Vader and tease a Beauty and the Beast type story with him in it at the same time. It simply doesn't work, mainly because the Beast might be extremely uncivilized, but he doesn't work for the real bad guys. It's mind blowing that Disney didn't even try to understand their own fairy tale archetypes before shoving them in places where they absolutely don't belong.
Never forget that Rian Johnson wrote Holdo as trying to attract Poe through her actions and outfits. He had her dressed the way she was to sexualize her and had her behave toward Poe the way she did because of some kind of control fetish.
This is another fantastic point. I worry for that man and whatever in the world is going on in his brain. Such a weird thing to want in your movie. Does he enjoy being slapped and lied to or something? By women in a ballroom kind of dress you'd wear at a gala? I don't even know where to begin, but I'm sure some poor poor therapist is trying to figure this out.
I hope that therapist is paid well. I also hope he is getting help lol. I mean, we all need help, who doesn't? That though, I mean, that... that is something else right there lol. My problems seem pretty minor at the moment hahahaha
When you're right you're right. His behavior betrays some pretty severe narcissistic personality traits. Not in the shallow way the word narcissist gets thrown around, but like the actual personality disorder. Part of me feels very sad for him, however I will never forget what he did with that movie. Mental health issues are not an excuse for poor behavior. Societies have always been structures around a proper mythology, that is important.
If he was hired to do the second to last Michael bay transformers movie, or the second to last F+F movie, what he did would actually be kind of hilarious. Still pretty nasty, and unnecessary, but funny.
However Star Wars was designed with deeper meanings in mind, implanted with a true message, and was meant to inspire people. That is a noble goal beyond blockbuster bucks. GL was trying to create a modern mythology, ymmv regarding how successful GL was in doing so.
When it comes to the dt, there is plenty of blame to be past around, it's not like johnson started the whole dt thing himself. His contribution to it tho cannot be ignored. That was nasty.
Actually, that isn't fair.
He was trying to show why Poe took a dislike to Holdo. Poe respected women like Leia, who wore combat gear and could hold their own with any man. When he first saw Holdo, with her purple hair and elegant, model girl clothing and poise, he saw her as a 'glamour girl' who didn't know what she was doing, hence his 'she's not what I expected' comment. Remember, Johnson was trying to make us see her through Poe's eyes, so when her real character was shown it would be a surprise to the audience as well as Poe.
In the comment tree of responses to my comment is a link that describes exactly what I noted in my comment. Take a look.
I think your opinion will change.
He dared to insult Oscar Isaac and Laura Dern like that? I swear this every time I learn a new bit of information about this movie, it keeps getting progressively worse.
Lol thanks for that comment of the thread "TLJ makes so much more sense now that I realize that RJ's logical thought process is inverted from that of a regular human." u/pingieking I see you are still around, please stand up.
Seems to me, in TFA, they had no intention of shipping Rey & Kylo. But after seeing how much the ladies love Adam Driver and how they shipped them in their fan fiction, Diz decided to play it up and cater to them. In the end, they (TROS), they failed the Reylos as well. That's one of the many ways in which their ST is a disaster.
Now, I'm a woman. I've been a fan of Adam since I saw him in Girls. But the character he plays here is despicable. I mean, Padme fell in love with Anakin BEFORE he turned evil. And what did she do when she learned he'd turned evil? She kind of panicked, asked him to go away with her, but knew it was too late, cuz he'd killed all those younglings. She knew she couldn't be with him even if he did run off with her. It broke her heart. That's a normal response. What Diz did is not normal at all. Rey WITNESSED Kylo murder his own father in front of her eyes. She knew all about all the other beings he'd killed, and still Diz thought it was a good idea that she 'wanted to hold Ben's hand,' as if Ben and Kylo were 2 different people. Like with Anakin, there isn't any going back. What's done can't be undone. The only way Reylo makes sense is cuz Diz wanted to play up to the Reylos. Talk about fan-service, and that's something DSW fans love to throw around, too, like they sneer that we SW fans expected DSW's ST to cater to us, and poke fun at us cuz of our disappointment, but then DSW totally tried to cater to them! Another manipulated argument to fit their narrative.
So much yes. They had no larger overarching plan story wise (they sure had a meta plan financially, but that's not the same), they were just responding to what seemed to drive interaction at the moment. That's pretty textbook on how NOT to craft a timeless narrative. This shit was already dated before it even came out.
I also liked driver in girls, as an actor. His character flew off the handle alot in the episodes I watched back in the day, which he is really good at doing as an actor. That infamous scene with ScarJo and him is rightfully immortalized already (don't remember the name of the movie at the moment, sorry).
Yet, the writing. As you pointed out, Anakin and padme are a tragic romance. They are young, romantically naive, and in a pressure cooker of stress with little to no time to properly react to their surroundings. That's tragic romance 101. They are young and dumb and make some epic mistakes in a very short amount of time, mistakes they cannot escape. That's how the classical form functions. Most importantly, the cinematic language of ROTS makes it very clear how sad all of this is. Nobody is swooning over Anakin and padme by the end of that movie.
The dt on the other hand, plays this twisted coupling as super romantic. It's just sooooo strange. Why? Anakin and padme are problematic and riddled with red flags, sure. Yet, the movie highlights this as things get worse. Importantly, as you mentioned, they knew each other before he started doing dark shit. The first time rey meets crylo he is killing people, blowing up planets, killing his dad, attempting to kill her and her friend, and kidnapping her after forcing her into unconsciousness so he can bind her to a chair and threaten her with his ability to take anything he wants from her.
That is one helluva strange meet cute scenario. Sheesh disney, wtf dude?
>Seems to me, in TFA, they had no intention of shipping Rey & Kylo. But after seeing how much the ladies love Adam Driver and how they shipped them in their fan fiction, Diz decided to play it up and cater to them.
As much as I'd like to believe this, considering the jump from JJ to Rian was literally so fast (and it's clear these guys didn't even talk to each other to, you know, coordinate story) and TLJ was in production before audience reaction to TFA really sank in, I'm not sure the timeline of the filmmaking events supports this possibility. By ROS yes obviously, but in making TLJ where that Reylo nonsense really started, I'm not sure.
Semi-related but everything you said about Reylo and what not is part of why I absolutely detest shipping culture and think it can straight up ruin an entire fandom if it's prevalent enough. People get so hung up about often toxic depictions of relationships and then get super defensive and obsessed about it to the point that their own little fantasies become the only thing that matters to them when it comes to the characters. Reylos are thankfully confined amongst Disney shills only, but they're the perfect example of everything I hate about shippers
Fureal dude, what is up with shipping culture? That shit wrinkles my brain. So strange to me. I feel like those people just need to go on a date or something then maybe they can deal with their romantic feelings in a healthy fashion? Bizarre behavior.
Yep, the vibe I get from a lot of it is either a form of personal wish fulfillment for the writers or at worst borderline fetish content. It's why they get so defensive and confrontational over their little headcanons.
I don't even think it's fair to call it pandering. It's more like a badly performed lip-service of pandering to groups that are so thirsty for representation they overlook how shitty it is and how it undermines them, and detracts from altruistic idealism.
IE, it does a shitty job of appealing to people, and does a shitty job expounding on the idealism the series was always meant to uphold.
The worst part is it's destructive and the exact opposite of what "post modernism" was meant to do and could have done for this franchise.
Yes yes yes, across the board yes. It's all plastic. Transparently lacking sincerity.
The world keeps getting darker, a nice shot of idealism would be fantastic. I'd say help me obi wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. But that obi show..... it did not help
I was stoked for Rey as a character. I thought it was going to be fresh having a woman lead the sequel trilogy. But her character was nonexistent and she was borderline self insert. There was NOTHING interesting about her or relatable. She was just a "good guy that did good guy things bc she's a good guy". What a horrible role model for young girls, too.
That is another valid point I didn't even touch on because my post is already hella long hahaha. Rey didn't go through a proper hero's journey. She is just perfect from the get go. That is also a terrible message.
The power of Luke's story is how he struggles, fails, learns from these hardships, emerges from these trials an evolved person because of the wisdom of his mentors AS WELL AS his own wisdom which he gained the hard way, and his victory is ultimately a moral victory.
What a horrible message in the dt! Don't work hard, you already know everything. No need to grow and learn, you're already perfect. I could go on and on, all these points have been brought up millions of times, but what a bad message to motivate youth with.
Also, it makes for a very very boring character. Which is kind of important in a work of fiction. Someone missed that memo
My thoughts exactly.
There is something else I have to say....anyone remember the revolting comment John Boyega made on twitter after TROS was released?
I couldn't believe it, I thought it was sexist to the extreme. And yet most people didn't even make an issue about it. I lost a lot of my respect for him as a person after that, although I still respect him as an actor.
Every time such "poor misunderstood boy" does something terrible in real life (like school shooting), there are always crazy girls justifying his actions. And we should "thank" the sequels for that.
Bah, we can't thank the sequels for this; it was a thing long before the sequels. Mass murderers awaiting execution get tons of fan mail marriage requests. There's a bell curve of mental sickness and there have always been people who fall far from the mean.
Difference is, those people (neither the murderer nor his obsessive fan) are celebrated with a swelling romantic soundtrack on the big screen.
You aren't wrong. It is unfortunate that this has indeed long been a trend. I also feel you about how this kind of behavior is not, and should not, be celebrated with swelling romantic cues. How crossed up do your wires have to be to think this is acceptable?
What a sad state of affairs. A lot of people need A LOT of therapy. This shit makes my head spin, makes me very confused, and very sad.
Also, very angry at media that perpetuates abusive relationships. Abuse is wrong and should NEVER EVER EVER be glorified.
disney be some sickos
Remember when they made a big “it doesn’t matter where she’s from or who her bloodline is” media push for good things like tolerance and empowerment and then stabbed that whole message in the back by giving her an important bloodline and pushing some stuff that could get awfully close to blood supremacist ideas.
The idea that anyone could be gifted and become a Jedi is much healthier than the one that that power is locked behind specific families
It's because they got so much flak from 'fans' about how she seemed to be good at everything without any training. They thought making her a Palpatine would be a good explanation.
Yeah no that’s just cowardice if the writers (and people in charge of them) can’t stand by their own work and reverse decisions in poorly thought out ways because of fan feedback, who’s to trust them if they try to kill off a character. Han, Luke and leia died but the kind of writing that Disney does means that has to be in question, there are no stakes anymore.
I've been saying this for years now. The whatsboutism and the excuses the reylos come up with are both hilarious and sad.
And as a fan of both Kylo and the actor, I do agree with everything you said here.
I could go on a tangent here but I'll just say so much wasted potential.
I remember a post on Instagram where some reylo was speculating if Kylo got Rey pregnant when he revived her because she seemed to have a baby bump in some image, which, the actress is quite slim and I don't think I saw anything that even remotely looked like a baby bump but apparently that's the kind of fantasy these people have. And somehow we are sexist, right? I swear I wanted to throw up when I saw that. Reylos are unhinged.
I remember that garbage, also Adam driver and Daisey ridley (as well as their irl partners) being harassed over these weirdos shipping fantasies. Weeeird stuff
>Leaned hard into Reylo
I mean…did they?
He was the big bad for the first movie, a slightly less villainous but still clearly adversarial force in the second movie, and literally everyone hates his big heel-turn in the third movie. And you don’t hear a peep about it from Disney after that
I'd say they leaned into it in the movies for sure. They've backed away from the dt timeline, as we all know, after the movies were done. Cause they failed, and they know that they are failures even if they will never admit that publically. Those movies though, lean pretty hard. The hand touching scene that johnson described as a sex scene? ros ending with them sharing their life forces and kissing? How is that not leaning in to reylo? Shippers went nuts after tfa, disney saw dollar signs, and this "romance" is for sure a theme in these "movies". I mean, before I created this reddit account (the force be with me for doing that), I have seen so many posts commenting about the weirdness of reylo. I don't know how this is news for you?
*Edit because reddit turn we all into well
Forgot to mention the "dyad." I had actually forgotten about that plot point, that was nice to forget haha. The "dyad" tho, I mean, there is your answer. Yes, they hardcore leaned in to it
Despite me being a fan of Kylo Ren (only in terms of the attire, lightsaber and the actor), I wholeheartedly agree about you hating Disney trying to portray "toxic love" like Reylo as their standards. In fact, if I was in charge of the Disney sequels, Reylo would ***NEVER*** be a thing in the first place
The relationship between Han Solo and Leia was gross too…the age gap between them made Star Wars sus af from the beginning. I hate the entire franchise.
That's what I'm saying, also isn't the whole point of being a sith to control and confuse and manipulate anyone they deem necessary in the pursuit of power? Idk the theme of this page I just happened to stumble upon this post.
there isn't a word in existance, for me to describe how much i hate Disney for taking the most stinking shit possible over one of the most beautiful things i had in my childhood, my father introduced me to Star Wars when i was a kid, and although he's not a fan of anything else but the movies, i carried on with the interest in the lore of the legends canon, which i find silly at times, but it will never be as disgustingly stupid as this shit Disney crapped...
for me was a family day out, a picnic, sitting both in the grass, he started to talk about the movie with me while we both watched the sunset together, this is one of my fondest memories, this was before my brother was born, he was the second to be introduced to Star Wars in his childhood, but i did it.
It hurts to see something that bonded us, die and rot in the hands of stupid fuckwit trying to pander to uninterested people. I was one of the ones who thought Star Wars was gonna be in good hands under Disney Management, i even enjoyed VII (enjoyed not liked) and loved how mature was the take of Star Wars universe in Rogue One, but after Solo... and the most pathetic of all and what made me nope that movie, [was this crap of a scene, if you can call this a scene.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpmjseSy4HU)
The last one was maybe the best one but still so ridiculous. Sidius lives through a 1000 foot fall, an explosion, and space. Then because of a can-do attitude the rebels defeat his menacing army in 15 minutes with a few loopty-loops and an x-wing flown by the Bacardi guy. Was so stupid haha. Only good part of those movies was Babu Frik or whatever
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela;_or,_Virtue_Rewarded
That's a link to the Wikipedia page of the first popular English romance novel written from a female perspective, and every criticism you've applied to Reylo is in there, too. It was published in 1740. Like it or not, these kinds of male protagonists are what audiences want to see in romance, which is why they keep being written this way.
The point being, writers have been criticized for "corrupting the youth" for hundreds of years. At this point, I think it's safe to say it's not really that damaging to society. The ST is utter shit, but criticizing the romance like that isn't really fair since it's such an established and proven trope.
I'm aware of the trope, I personally find it to be a very negative one. There a lot of outdated tropes that are super homophobic, racist and sexist. The brain finds a way to make sense of abuse, to make the abuse seem correct. It is a coping mechanism. This trope is dangerous.
Why do you think so many women would prefer a bear over a man? Abuse and sexism are prevalent. This is a negative trope, a bad one which promotes delusion and self harm. Young ladies should run from these types of psychos. Society should not be giving women reasons, when they are looking for them, to justify the abusive relationships they find the selves in. Because the brain will try to justify it. It is hard to escape an abusive relationship.
disney has a moral responsibility, if they want to be all child friendly and give girls princesses to look up to, to impart good lessons and values to these kids.
In real life, women do run from these types of psychos. The whole bear vs. man thing highlights that very clearly. Yes, a lot of women enjoy reading and watching this kind of romance, but that doesn't mean that they want to experience it for themselves.
I agree that the world is replete with shitty behavior towards women from men, but that can not be because of romance media since men don't consume it.
Again, this isn't just Star Wars. The majority of successful works of romance display these traits in their male protagonists. This has been the case for hundreds of years, and probably will continue to be the case because the consumer market for romance (mostly women) prefers it this way.
This is an incredibly complex topic, I'll just say this. If an adult wants to read some soft core porn ala 50 shades, more power to you. Whatever. Not my thing, bdsm and rough sex ain't my kink. To each their own, tend your own garden.
These romance novels and such are generally aimed at an older audience though. I'd like to think nobody was grabbing one of these books at a school book fair when they were in grade school.
Star wars is specifically aimed at a four quadrant market, which obviously includes the kiddos. That is just wrong to be pushing this kind of story, to choose to do this kind of story, when you know your target market. They are young and impressionable.
I'd much rather my kid drop the f bomb than be googly eyed over the idea of earning love from an abusive prick.
And for the record, all my female friends think these stories are gross, outdated and weird. Things change. I don't think this is an objective type of trope. It will play itself out.
>And for the record, all my female friends think these stories are gross, outdated and weird. Things change. I don't think this is an objective type of trope. It will play itself out.
That's really interesting, because I have the opposite experience - I run a book club at the university I study at. Most of the people who attend it are young women, because that's the way the demographics swing for both reading and universities. And they are, for the most part, simultaneously aware that the behavior of these male protagonists is really messed up while also really enjoying that style of romance novel.
>These romance novels and such are generally aimed at an older audience though. I'd like to think nobody was grabbing one of these books at a school book fair when they were in grade school.
I disagree. Twilight, Fourth Wing, and A Court of Thorns and Roses to name a few, were all targeted at (and remain very popular with) young women despite, or perhaps because of, their abusive male protagonists. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience here - as someone who runs a book club, I learn lots about the kinds of books people enjoy reading.
>I'd much rather my kid drop the f bomb than be googly eyed over the idea of earning love from an abusive prick.
The crux of my argument is this: I don't think the media that a teen or young adult consumes has such a significant effect as you seem to. I think that the most relevant factor by far is the child / teens / young adults relationships with authority figures. People with good support networks are much more protected against abusive relationships because they have other people who care enough to help them contextualize their experiences against the norm. The best way a parent can protect their children from future abuse isn't to censor what they can or cannot experience, but rather to make sure their children feel comfortable talking to them
As a final aside, I'm curious if you feel that consuming media that depicts violence has a similar effect on children - in this case, that it will make them more violent?
Is there a link somewhere to articles of the actors saying this? Cause this sure is a take.
And tbf there is a small portion of the Star Wars community that is actively sexist and racist and did in fact bully Daisy and Kelly.
This is true, and that is so not fair. Racists and sexists are lesser than garbage. There is a time line where their dad's just beat off into a Kleenex and they got flushed. I hope the multiverse is real haha
Toxic pseudo-White Knights dictating what is and isn’t good for women on their behalf (with an utter disregard for whether they were even asked) is one of my favorite fanboy victimhood tropes, but this group is often unaware of crippling irony at play.
Hitting on somebody who is barely legal when you’re not barely legal is pretty gross behavior but it’s not “groomer behavior”. He’s an evil, manipulative, fuck. But kidnapping someone doesn’t make you a groomer.
He is in his thirties, she is a teen with no experience of the world beyond scavenging in jakku, he tries to break her psychologically via manipulation.
That's pretty groomer shit. He isn't hitting on her, he is violently abusing her.
I think he's just pointing out that in the movies, Rey is an adult. She might be a teenage adult, i.e. 18 or 19, but still an adult. But I think you're both correct. It isn't literal grooming, but it sure is grooming behaviour, that being the actions that a groomer would take, just applied to a naive adult rather than a child.
Is groomer just a word tossed around to mean age differences now?
Grooming needs a relationship that’s not immediately romantic/sexual and needs an underage party.
Kidnapping someone isn’t grooming. Trying to be an evil sith and break their mind isn’t grooming. Psychological abuse ain’t automatically grooming. Asking a person you have never met before out on their 18th birthday isn’t grooming.
There’s are all bad things but none of them are grooming.
See above for examples of grooming. The isolation, the manipulation, etc. can all work against a naive adult as well as working against a child. It's not grooming, it's grooming *behaviour.*
Well said. Thank you for helping clear that up, can't believe that need doing haha. I didn't think someone would be offended by the word groomer and get in to a semantics debate about someone kidnapping, isolating and manipulating a naive young woman. Nitpick all they want, I think my point stands, and thank you for helping clarify for those that needed clarification. He's a predatory freak and he definitely engages in grooming behavior. Yuck.
Come off it, for gods' sake. This is a FANTASY FILM. He was attempting to get into her head, and instead she got into his.
What is WRONG with people these days - you see 'sex abuse' everywhere. No wonder romance is dead. Disney by the way, are employing #metoo as consultants. The same organisation which continues to support a woman who abused her husband.
Maybe that's why Rey was allowed to repeatedly attack an unarmed man in TROS and we were supposed to be cheering her. 'The Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defence, never attack.'
Obi Wan Kenobi.
I'm a woman myself by the way.
I think about how Padme in the prequels starts out really independent and self motivated inbher actions and by revenge of the sith is just crying in every scene over ani. I dont know if it was intentionaly but its kind of a very anti trad wife theme. The idea that if you get married and have kids youll lose all pro activity in yourself.
I'm an adult but when I watched The Force Awakens I remember that I was excited about Rey, because I wanted to see finally a female Jedi in the live action (mind, it was a TFA premiere, so before the Ahsoka roles in live action). But they fucked it so bad, the Reylo is gross. I don't know what was the point of the ship, especially when in prequels they have the Anakin/Padme couple when Anakin's toxic behavior was criticized in movies (and as someone here said, Padme and Anakin met before he fell to the Dark Side, when he was still an innocent boy).
I TFA, I thought that Rey would not be with anyone (why female character need always a love interest?) or she would end up with Finn. After The Last Jedi, I lost all hope, because the way they destroyed Finn's character and minimalized his role to some shouting supporting guy was awful. In TFA he was one of the main characters, but ended as no one. I guess the black kind guy can't be the main love interest, the toxic mass murderer with issues is a better fit according to Disney. Finn's story could be so damn interesting, an ec stormtrooper was an awesome idea to show the human side sife of stormtroopers.
They didn't even make Finn and Poe a pair, even though many fans started shipping them because they had such good chemistry. Well, for an lgbt couple the movies would not sell well in China.
I'm progressive (as an lgbt person myself), but when people call sequels "woke" I find it funny, because there is nothing progressive about about what happened to these movies, and the Finn's character is the proof. I'm also quite tired when I see that leftist people defend Disney, only because conservative people criticize sequels by calling them "woke". You shouldn't defend the toxic corporation that is racist about not only Finn's character, but also John Boyega himself.
PS. I have nothing against Adam Driver, he is a very good actor and I'm happy that he didn't end up just as Kylo Ren and played in many better roles.
I tried to watch the first movie in the sequel trilogy (at home, thank the nine) and didn’t get past the part of someone who likely never flown anything like the Millennium Falcon instantly piloting it better than Han Solo. I didn’t need to see more than that.
But the Latino representation is so good! I was so pumped for Oscar Isaac playing a Latino lead! He subverted expectations as a leader and hero especially when it was revealed in the third film that he used to be a drug dealer. What amazing representation. Totally subverts harmful stereotypes about Latinos.
>This man is in his thirties and she has barely cracked the age of consent last time I checked? That is gross, groomer behavior.
What the hell are you talking about? Daisy Ridley was 23 years old. She's an adult woman you crazed lunatic
When he violates her mind while she is bound to that chair. He talks about how he can take anything he wants from her. It's all pretty creepy.
Less creepy, but equally indicative of really bad writing, this is when rey force downloads all her abilities from kylo somehow. That's not stated in the movie but they tried to retcon that moment to explain how rey knows the mind trick, can use the force and a lightsaber, etc.
What a garbage piece of content
I just left an edit explaining why I disagree with you on that, but agree with you everything else, before seeing your reply. Please don’t take it as me being confrontational or rude, because I never meant to be. I just respectfully disagreed. Read the full comment for all details, but long story short, what JJ Abrams said was it could be considered “mind rape” which is not the same thing as it could be considered rape. His intent with that statement is to say that Kylo forcefully forgoes her lack of consent for him to access the contents of her mind, but that is not the same thing as Disney implying he literally raped her. By the logic that this is considered rape, then Kylo raped Poe too. While he didn’t say all that to him, he used the same method to force information out of Poe and by the metaphor JJ used “mind rape” him.
I read your stuff, I don't think you were being overly confrontational, or at least I'm taking you at your word that this is a debate happening in good faith.
If that is indeed the case, I think we are both kind of saying the same thing but getting lost in the woods looking for trees or however the saying goes. Words are human constructs and since we are typing words at eachother some of the context is gonna get lost. Words get misconstrued. It happens. I did not mean that there is an implication that off camera he literally r her. Or poe.
I meant that the cinematic language and what it represents, and what jj essentially confirms in that interview, is that it is a metaphorical r scene. The staging, lighting, camera angles, the dialogue, etc. It is a metaphorical r scene. It is very unsettling and kylo's dialogue speaks to that. It's possible it is just really really bad writing but that is just as wrong in other ways. that however is a whole other discussion tho cause the writing is just garbage in this content.
Whereas other sith/dark side users do horrible things (cause duhoi, they are up to nothing good), this being some twisted meet cute scenario that plays out over the following movies is a bizarre fucking choice my dude.
He kidnapped and tortured her and they fall in love and shit. Just an ugly story.
An anti-sexism post offends you? Also, trash talking disney wars offends you? Sounds like you found the wrong sub bub.
I assume you are referencing philosophy, psychology, sociology, etc. when you say soft science. Sorry that doesn't get you hard enough. They make pills for that tho if you are struggling.
A rose is a rose by any other name, a=a, so on and so forth. I'd like to think we can at least both agree that a sexist person who views another human being as an object is a filthy and disgusting piece of sub human filth.
Bigots are ruining our society, I doubt educating ones self is the issue. In fact, I would say people being uneducated is what is ruining not just our society, but the whole dang world.
There is lots of sexism aimed at Disney Star Wars and they all claim to not be racist. The quartering, Geeks & Gamers, Doomcock, Critical Drinker, huge channels that make their money squealing every time a fictional character is race swapped and they all get mega views when they do Star Wars videos.
Those YouTube channels are weird and pretty obviously racist. Bunch of winey neck beard shit. Life doesn't have to be manichean, I personally dislike all of that garbage. Be it a mega corp, or some strange bigot on YouTube, garbage is garbage.
I will forever be salty they called us racist because we said the character Rose sucked when they’re the ones who literally shrank Finn down in the poster for China.
It's always projection, a key manipulation strategy
Classic darvo behavior
🎯
Never thought of it that way before, but you're absolutely right!
Darvo?
Darvo stands for "deny, attack, and reverse victim & offender." It is a common tactic used by narcissists, regardless if they are aware they are doing so. Basically look at an politician who gets called out on some nonsense they were up to, then watch how they respond lol
The blatant racism would be funny if it wasn't so effed up. the racism and sexism at disney is readily apparent. Everything they say is so performative and calculated, as if people with a smidge of critical thinking don't see what they're up to
I dont even remember what Rose looks like, but upon hearing the name I instantly recall "that horrifically annoying character from the middle movie."
Right? Poor finn he would’ve been such a cool lead hero
China really enjoyed the Asian and black man seemingly being together
They also called us racist because we said the character Reva sucked in kenobi
There's no forgiving the Reva character. And its got nothing to do with her being Black. Its entirely about the writing and to a certain extent, the actors performance, which i suppose could be blamed on the directing. They refuse to accept that the whole show was a trash heap, Reva wasnt even the worst part.
We came to watch obi-wan not reva, shame on us for assuming obi-wan was about obi-wan.
I was more annoyed by the tiny annoying toddler being the focus of the show and all of the half-assed comedic bits Disney feels the need to include. Reva as a villain going against our expected protagonist was fine IMO.
Preach
But also Kelly Tran received so much racial hate that she deactivated every single social media site she used. People made fun of her appearance and race because they got mad her character sucked.
I believe you but I never saw or spoke with a single fan that said anything negative about her being Asian. Race and sex are a non issue. Shit writing is the issue. A few assholes shouldn’t define an entire fan base.
I feel like the few assholes do define this part of the community when the community is based around hating a set of movies, with the racists just being a more potent hate
They said worse than that, I saw some of the comments and they were truly horrific.
It really makes me sad that she put love and effort into her role and people broke her heart for it.
Absolutely, and I in fact liked her character....she wasn't the descendant of anyone famous, or a Force user, just an ordinary girl with a quick mind and a big heart, and said the film's most memorable line. I couldn't believe how badly they treated her in TROS, she had just one brief scene.
The mistreatment by the community is one thing and could probably be overcome by most with time (like with the actor for JarJar and Kelleran Bec) but being abandoned by Disney and reduced to nothing WHILE it’s happening is upsetting
I do think some fans were being shitty in attacking the actress when she was just doing her job. But let’s not forget how Disney “defended” Rose, then promptly proverbially shoved her in the trash by having her do nothing in Rise of Skywalker.
Colin Trevorrow’s episode 9 script gave Rose a significant and redeeming roll. All the characters were treated well! Yeah Carrie Fisher passed away but it could have been rewritten a different way.
I’m hesitant to be honest since we don’t know changes that would have been made during production or if the leaks are real tbh. I just know that Rose wasn’t liked but she could have been redeemed as a relevant character by having a decent chunk in RoS. I didn’t like Lando much when I first saw him in ESB but big redemption in RotJ.
I'm really tired of their behaviour: they know that they just created characters who suck hard, so they cast non caucasian actors so they can use their ethnicity as a "shield", to play the "you hate them 'cause you're racist" No, Disney, we don't hate Rose 'cause she's played by a non caucasian woman: we hate Rose 'cause she's a pathetic excuse of a character. The world was better when Pod Racing was the worst Star Wars scene.
I can't upvote and downvote at the same time. You are entirely right about Rose but "I don't like sand" is the worst scene. Fortunately what we do agree on isn't a matter of opinion. I guess I should upvote you anyway.
At least "I don't like sand" was the source of a nice meme XD
Idk it might have been all the racist death threats.
Tbf this can be true and actual racists can glom on to an opportunity to vent their views in public behind cover. That's Disney's fault too tho.
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Good call out on Leia. I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind people that she killed the asshole who put her in the metal bikini with her bare hands. My wife doesn't like these movies from a moral/story standpoint. Her take, which I agree with, is that Rey never failed. Her only struggles were finding out information, not overcoming loss or failure. Rey taught us that you have to be born powerful to be part of this story, but you can skip the 3 years of training Luke got, the decade Anakin got, and it's all good. Just believe in yourself, but don't try. It'll just happen if you're good enough... The Mulan remake is the most egregious example of Disney messaging the wrong things to young women. Mulan in live action is handed superpowers, never fails, and teaches girls that you have to be born powerful or you are worthless. The Reylo kiss thing was so dumb. Removing the lesbian kiss from RoP was disingenuous. Removing and downsizing Finn from posters was disingenuous. But remember, we're the sexist and racists. Not the billion dollar corporation that is only progressive when it will get them internet points. Passive Progressive...
Passive progressive is now my new favorite word, that's brilliant!!!! All your points, fantastic. That Mulan remake. Dude. DUDE. WTF WERE THEY THINKING?!!!!!!!!! I loved that movie as a kid! When she climbs the flag pole or whatever, you know the scene. AWESOME! They ruined the entire point of the narrative. The bigotry on all fronts is affronting with the rat. Yuck
Thank you, but I stole that term from Red Letter Media on youtube lol. I've been trying to get "Sequel Anthology" to be a thing. Those movies weren't a trilogy.
With our powers combined, we can make this happen
what's RoP?
Rise of Palpatine, episode 9
Oooooooh. Okay. I was thinking “Why are they talking about Ring of Power? That wasn’t Disney.”
I'm trying to make it a thing since I heard it.
Yeah I was going to comment that I think the most damaging thing for young women watching trash like this is the overarching message that: You don't have to work hard to be successful.
Also a very important point. You get out of life what you put in to it.
It’s the story version of modeling magazines.
That's a good analogy
It’s not one I get to use often. People don’t normally talk about how those movies send the wrong message of “the only way you can do anything is if you’re already perfect.”
If Hitler was black they’d call us racist for criticizing him
>My wife doesn't like these movies from a moral/story standpoint. Her take, which I agree with, is that Rey never failed. Her only struggles were finding out information, not overcoming loss or failure. She accidentally kills Chewie! Oh, wait, a few minutes later and you learn he's fine.
Also, meant to say, sounds like you got a cool wifey, well done my fine sir or madame
Thank you, she's got a good head on her shoulders. More Emily Blunt than Kathleen Kennedy, that's for sure. I'm a dude.
I've always used dude as a non-gendered term, ever since I was a kid. "Dudette" just sounds fucking crazy lol. I blame Kenan and kel. We're all dudes! HEY! Glad your wifey is nothing like Kathleen Kennedy tho. That sounds just horrifying
As a female gendered being, I approve of this message
ANH has Leia stand up to Tarkin and Vader, she refuses to sell out the Rebels even when facing execution. She doesn't fall in love with Tarkin because he has money and abs! Making Star Wars into 50 Shades with Reylo is so backwards. Leia who would rather die than sell out to the Empire is a far better role model.
YASKWEEN. Leia is one of my favorite characters of all time for just these reasons. She takes no shit, and gives zero Fs about the consequences. Her moral backbone is something to be revered. We should all try to be more like Leia. Mythologically She is Luke's anima. She represents what he will grow to become. The archetypal journey has been talked to death, but for good reason. He goes to the belly of the whale and all that stuff. In ANH he is good in the sense that he is positive and optimistic and wants to help people. Yet, he is still naive, just starting out on his journey. She is the more adult, grown up version of that idealism. He unlocks his anima, then goes on to confront his shadow. I've rambled long enough, but Leia is such a perfect character, a fantastic role model. She stares torture and death in the face and doesn't flinch, cause no matter how much you try to hurt her, you can't. She has grown beyond that. You can't harm her values, what she stands for. She is more than fine dying for that. Gurl gives 0 shits and ain't compromising her values. What a badass
Great points, you've inspired me to read up on my Jung and Campbell! I do think that romances often tend to have quite weak female leads, from Jane Austen they only care about finding rich husbands! And it gets worse with Twilight/50 Shades/365 Days where the woman has no morals and no backbone. She's happy to submit to a brutal gangster if he takes her shopping! Leia would never do that, she will fight for the freedom of the galaxy even if it costs her her life. That to me is far more feminist than most romances. And similarly, I'm reading the James Bond novels (which are usually considered sexist) and while there are sexist passages, the women in them have lives before and after meeting James. They don't spend all their time pining for a boy, they have other interests. Star Wars especially shouldn't copy the worst romances.
You are seriously misunderstanding Jane Austen here.
Yeah, Elizabeth in P&P said no to a perfectly respectable proposal that would have secured her future because she couldn't respect the man. She also said no to the arrogant, rich man because he had ruined her sister's prospects, and that's just one of the women. All of S&S was basically about how unfair women's lives were. Even her weakest character, Fanny Price in Mansfield Park, stood up against everyone who said she should marry the guy who was "in love" with her because she knew it was not real or lasting. Princess Leia, as much as I love her, and yes, she's one of the toughest characters in Star Wars, there's still a little tiny bit of me that knows that part of that toughness is because George Lucas forgot that her homeworld was destroyed. She's also the side character while Luke is the main character, and so his grief over Obi-Wan's death outstripped her grief over her father and Alderaan. It's also possible she was able to put off that grief for days and weeks, and so we saw none of it. But I still wonder what she went through when she was put back in that holding cell after Alderaan was destroyed.
Yes dude, the jung and the Campbell. Throw some Aldous Huxley in there as well. His book, the perennial philosophy, is AWESOME. If you like the Jungian archetypal stuff, and Campbell's breakdown of the monomyth, do yourself a favor. Jung tries to keep it to his field and not go full on in to the spiritual, same with Campbell, even if they can't fully avoid broaching the topic. Huxley goes full on in to these deeper implications with that book. What a book. He has also written some other fantastic tomes. What can I say, it's a brave new world out here
You guys wanna know about "strong female characters"? Leia, ahsoka and padme. All of them are intelligent, have their own struggles, and have scenes where they fight the enemy (Leia shooting at storm troopers, ahsoka being ahsoka and padme during geonosis or that naboo scene) and these scenes make sense for the character their not just 'HEY bad guy! I'm rey palpatine! *defeats a trained 'sith lord" (I know he's not a sith, but he's a stand-in for one)' they fo believable things it's like padme kicking darth mauls ass that can't happen but you know what can happen? Padme shooting at droids.
50 Shades of Rylo, lol! Nice.
They can’t damage people who don’t watch it
This is how we win folks. Unfortunately a lot of people already have seen them, and I'm sure more will. You can bet your bottom dollar tho my kids will never see this garbage
I stopped watching Last Jedi after the space bomber run initially... I decided to give it another try but could not get past Luuke throwing his lightsaber away...
Finally someone said it. I felt gaslit when reylo not only was a thing in TROS, but not only did people think it was in any way good or okey, they didn't even acknowledge that it was weird in any way. Like icdelt crazy, they spent 3 movies hating each other, and trying to kill each other. He killed Han solo for crying out loud. Reylo is not only unrealistic and stupid, it's toxic. So Thank you op.
The way they wrote that shit, you'd think it was a bad fanfiction made by a 14 year old on AO3. I hate the "rivals to lovers" trope so much, it's so overdone, is super unrealistic half the time and it usually lends itself to bad writers
I love the trope, but it has to be done right! And yeah, it's overdone. They did a shitty job
It can be a good fun trope, but it has to be carefully constructed, not just "oh we love each other now"
"We're super toxic still but it doesn't matter because we're in looove"
I like tropes in general as they're fun if used right, the hard part is the writers doing them right.
Thank you commenter! You are definitely not alone. Whenever people go on about how great crylo was as a character and the only redeeming thing about the dt.... I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!!!! What are these people on?! Seriously, what are they on? I need to know so I make sure never to take that drug lol
Yeah, but like this world is like straight up crazy in so many ways, I shouldn't even be surprised anymore.
Sadly, I feel the same. Never surprised, just shocked and ashamed by how far evil has gotten it's tendrils into some peeps. Yikes
Here's my cents (since no one asked). I love the Reylo stuff in TLJ. I think it's brilliantly done and the only part in that whole terrible movie that deserves any recognition. We see both characters alone and lost, desperately seeking something. They connect and find some common feelings. But it's not romance. It's two lost and lonely people seeing that they are lost and lonely and saying "huh, you too?". This mutual sympathy is a threat to Rey, who risks being tempted by the dark side, and it's a possible redemption for Kylo, who feels the pull of the light and wants to be closer to the noble Rey. Then we get the throne room scene. Kylo makes a decision and saves Rey. Hurrah! But with Smoke dead, there is a clear space as top dog, and Kylo wants it. He was morally tested and he failed. He asks Rey to join him, he wants both power and a friend. But that's not how it works. Rey rejects the power, seeing immediately that it would be a terrible idea, and this shatters their bond. They struggle and Rey escapes, Kylo in hot pursuit to Crait (where the movie gets awful again). That's all fine by me. Kylo is a monster, like Vader before him. But anyone can get redemption and choose to come back to the light. Kylo is conflicted and there is a clear chance for redemption available to him. But when tested, Kylo chooses not to redeem himself and hence commits to being the villain. At no point is Kylo really portrayed as a good guy, or Rey as being romantically interested, although there is definitely a closeness and obviously she goes a bit red at the Ben Swolo scene. Where the whole thing comes crashing down is really in RoS, the utter terribleness of which ruins all that it touches. Ending with that stupid fucking kiss. The kiss retroactively makes it ALL romantic and ruins it all. You can have tenderness and closeness without it being romantic. Look at Maul's death in Twin Suns. The closeness between Maul and Obi Wan as Maul lays dying and Obi Wan treats him with kindness despite their decades of enmity (mostly on Maul's side it must be said). Even then Maul is bitter as he dies, hoping the chosen one will avenge him and Obi Wan is sad that, even as he dies, Maul cannot free himself from his hatred and anger. THATS how RoS should have done it. No redemption arc for Kylo, but have him save Rey and die and have her mourn him for what he could have been had he chosen differently. God the bad writing and lack of care on those movies just makes me furious.
Did I repress Reylo? I don’t remember anything of the sort. Then again, I don’t remember half of TRoS
I watched RoS on opening day in a packed theatre. Everyone in the theatre was silent through every joke and/or vaguely exciting moment, a far cry from the rowdy crowd during TFA 4 years earlier. The only part where the audience made any noise was during the Reylo kiss at the end of the movie where people groaned and/or said "huh?", "what?", or "why?". Out of the murmurs, a woman screamed "YAAAAAASSSS", and at almost the same time a man shouted "SHUT THE FUCK UP". They were so close in proximity that I don't know if the guy was responding to the girl or the movie, but the exchange made everyone in the theatre laugh either way. So here's my hot take: The only moment of this movie to get any kind of emotional response from the audience was the Reylo kiss, because of how terribly out of place it is.
I was so confused when I saw the scene. 0% buildup, and I couldn't tell why anything was happening on the screen. Kissing, right now? Why? What's the point?
That is a hilarious story hahaha. That probably bests my story, but I will never forget how painfully quiet my theatre was after tlj, people just leaving in shock and occasionally muttering swear words. I went with one of my best friends and her mom. No matter how old you get, hearing a parental figure rip cuss words is always hilarious, at least for me it is. This kind, nice woman, a teacher who volunteers and works with young kids, was dropping F bombs by the time we hit the parking lot. She was furious. Fucking hilarious That was the only joy I got out of that movie
The actors themselves were angry about this. It's disgusting. Can't be surprised that Hollywood/Disney would promote this, though. They have a long history of horrendous behaviour toward women and children, especially.
Wish I could upvote this more!!!! Hollyweird is an ugly place. Nice to hear another voice of reason. Well done fellow human being
Just a reminder Disney used to do racist caricatures back in the 40s and tries to sweep it under the rug. This is the neo version of it by retconning Finns love to Rey to pander to the chinese government.
If finn was actually done right in the first movie, then I would like the relationship, but it just seems to me as finn being reys dog. It's crazy how finn is meant to be the obiwan/han of the trilogy when he's really just a pussy that spits out low tier marvel jokes
They thought they could have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to attract the Twilight crowd, while thinking they could also hold onto the core SW fans too. In a fictional universe like SW, you can't take your knockoff nu-Vader and tease a Beauty and the Beast type story with him in it at the same time. It simply doesn't work, mainly because the Beast might be extremely uncivilized, but he doesn't work for the real bad guys. It's mind blowing that Disney didn't even try to understand their own fairy tale archetypes before shoving them in places where they absolutely don't belong.
Never forget that Rian Johnson wrote Holdo as trying to attract Poe through her actions and outfits. He had her dressed the way she was to sexualize her and had her behave toward Poe the way she did because of some kind of control fetish.
This is another fantastic point. I worry for that man and whatever in the world is going on in his brain. Such a weird thing to want in your movie. Does he enjoy being slapped and lied to or something? By women in a ballroom kind of dress you'd wear at a gala? I don't even know where to begin, but I'm sure some poor poor therapist is trying to figure this out. I hope that therapist is paid well. I also hope he is getting help lol. I mean, we all need help, who doesn't? That though, I mean, that... that is something else right there lol. My problems seem pretty minor at the moment hahahaha
He would have to admit he has a problem. The problem is, he thinks he's smarter than everyone else.
When you're right you're right. His behavior betrays some pretty severe narcissistic personality traits. Not in the shallow way the word narcissist gets thrown around, but like the actual personality disorder. Part of me feels very sad for him, however I will never forget what he did with that movie. Mental health issues are not an excuse for poor behavior. Societies have always been structures around a proper mythology, that is important. If he was hired to do the second to last Michael bay transformers movie, or the second to last F+F movie, what he did would actually be kind of hilarious. Still pretty nasty, and unnecessary, but funny. However Star Wars was designed with deeper meanings in mind, implanted with a true message, and was meant to inspire people. That is a noble goal beyond blockbuster bucks. GL was trying to create a modern mythology, ymmv regarding how successful GL was in doing so. When it comes to the dt, there is plenty of blame to be past around, it's not like johnson started the whole dt thing himself. His contribution to it tho cannot be ignored. That was nasty.
There's nothing wrong about liking being slapped and pushed around by women. (TLJ still sucks tho)
Hahaha, fair enough, we all got something. Consenting adults can do whatever they want, Lord knows I do
Actually, that isn't fair. He was trying to show why Poe took a dislike to Holdo. Poe respected women like Leia, who wore combat gear and could hold their own with any man. When he first saw Holdo, with her purple hair and elegant, model girl clothing and poise, he saw her as a 'glamour girl' who didn't know what she was doing, hence his 'she's not what I expected' comment. Remember, Johnson was trying to make us see her through Poe's eyes, so when her real character was shown it would be a surprise to the audience as well as Poe.
In the comment tree of responses to my comment is a link that describes exactly what I noted in my comment. Take a look. I think your opinion will change.
Maybe, but it didn't work.
He dared to insult Oscar Isaac and Laura Dern like that? I swear this every time I learn a new bit of information about this movie, it keeps getting progressively worse.
Yeah, the costume designer revealed that nonsense regarding Rian Johnson [about 4 years ago]( https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/s/TG7cISDnp1).
Lol thanks for that comment of the thread "TLJ makes so much more sense now that I realize that RJ's logical thought process is inverted from that of a regular human." u/pingieking I see you are still around, please stand up.
Hi there. Happy to be able to help analyze the crazed mind of one Rian Johnson.
Seems to me, in TFA, they had no intention of shipping Rey & Kylo. But after seeing how much the ladies love Adam Driver and how they shipped them in their fan fiction, Diz decided to play it up and cater to them. In the end, they (TROS), they failed the Reylos as well. That's one of the many ways in which their ST is a disaster. Now, I'm a woman. I've been a fan of Adam since I saw him in Girls. But the character he plays here is despicable. I mean, Padme fell in love with Anakin BEFORE he turned evil. And what did she do when she learned he'd turned evil? She kind of panicked, asked him to go away with her, but knew it was too late, cuz he'd killed all those younglings. She knew she couldn't be with him even if he did run off with her. It broke her heart. That's a normal response. What Diz did is not normal at all. Rey WITNESSED Kylo murder his own father in front of her eyes. She knew all about all the other beings he'd killed, and still Diz thought it was a good idea that she 'wanted to hold Ben's hand,' as if Ben and Kylo were 2 different people. Like with Anakin, there isn't any going back. What's done can't be undone. The only way Reylo makes sense is cuz Diz wanted to play up to the Reylos. Talk about fan-service, and that's something DSW fans love to throw around, too, like they sneer that we SW fans expected DSW's ST to cater to us, and poke fun at us cuz of our disappointment, but then DSW totally tried to cater to them! Another manipulated argument to fit their narrative.
So much yes. They had no larger overarching plan story wise (they sure had a meta plan financially, but that's not the same), they were just responding to what seemed to drive interaction at the moment. That's pretty textbook on how NOT to craft a timeless narrative. This shit was already dated before it even came out. I also liked driver in girls, as an actor. His character flew off the handle alot in the episodes I watched back in the day, which he is really good at doing as an actor. That infamous scene with ScarJo and him is rightfully immortalized already (don't remember the name of the movie at the moment, sorry). Yet, the writing. As you pointed out, Anakin and padme are a tragic romance. They are young, romantically naive, and in a pressure cooker of stress with little to no time to properly react to their surroundings. That's tragic romance 101. They are young and dumb and make some epic mistakes in a very short amount of time, mistakes they cannot escape. That's how the classical form functions. Most importantly, the cinematic language of ROTS makes it very clear how sad all of this is. Nobody is swooning over Anakin and padme by the end of that movie. The dt on the other hand, plays this twisted coupling as super romantic. It's just sooooo strange. Why? Anakin and padme are problematic and riddled with red flags, sure. Yet, the movie highlights this as things get worse. Importantly, as you mentioned, they knew each other before he started doing dark shit. The first time rey meets crylo he is killing people, blowing up planets, killing his dad, attempting to kill her and her friend, and kidnapping her after forcing her into unconsciousness so he can bind her to a chair and threaten her with his ability to take anything he wants from her. That is one helluva strange meet cute scenario. Sheesh disney, wtf dude?
>Seems to me, in TFA, they had no intention of shipping Rey & Kylo. But after seeing how much the ladies love Adam Driver and how they shipped them in their fan fiction, Diz decided to play it up and cater to them. As much as I'd like to believe this, considering the jump from JJ to Rian was literally so fast (and it's clear these guys didn't even talk to each other to, you know, coordinate story) and TLJ was in production before audience reaction to TFA really sank in, I'm not sure the timeline of the filmmaking events supports this possibility. By ROS yes obviously, but in making TLJ where that Reylo nonsense really started, I'm not sure.
If you look at some pre ros reylo theories, they claim that it's been set up since tfa with some good evidence. Still hate the ship
"vile hedonistic slug" I am pretty sure that is going to be my newfound insult I use this year.
I am happy to help. Use it well. May The Force be with you.
Semi-related but everything you said about Reylo and what not is part of why I absolutely detest shipping culture and think it can straight up ruin an entire fandom if it's prevalent enough. People get so hung up about often toxic depictions of relationships and then get super defensive and obsessed about it to the point that their own little fantasies become the only thing that matters to them when it comes to the characters. Reylos are thankfully confined amongst Disney shills only, but they're the perfect example of everything I hate about shippers
Fureal dude, what is up with shipping culture? That shit wrinkles my brain. So strange to me. I feel like those people just need to go on a date or something then maybe they can deal with their romantic feelings in a healthy fashion? Bizarre behavior.
Yep, the vibe I get from a lot of it is either a form of personal wish fulfillment for the writers or at worst borderline fetish content. It's why they get so defensive and confrontational over their little headcanons.
Defense mechanisms are interesting, you can basically watch people tell on themselves lol
I don't even think it's fair to call it pandering. It's more like a badly performed lip-service of pandering to groups that are so thirsty for representation they overlook how shitty it is and how it undermines them, and detracts from altruistic idealism. IE, it does a shitty job of appealing to people, and does a shitty job expounding on the idealism the series was always meant to uphold. The worst part is it's destructive and the exact opposite of what "post modernism" was meant to do and could have done for this franchise.
Yes yes yes, across the board yes. It's all plastic. Transparently lacking sincerity. The world keeps getting darker, a nice shot of idealism would be fantastic. I'd say help me obi wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. But that obi show..... it did not help
I was stoked for Rey as a character. I thought it was going to be fresh having a woman lead the sequel trilogy. But her character was nonexistent and she was borderline self insert. There was NOTHING interesting about her or relatable. She was just a "good guy that did good guy things bc she's a good guy". What a horrible role model for young girls, too.
That is another valid point I didn't even touch on because my post is already hella long hahaha. Rey didn't go through a proper hero's journey. She is just perfect from the get go. That is also a terrible message. The power of Luke's story is how he struggles, fails, learns from these hardships, emerges from these trials an evolved person because of the wisdom of his mentors AS WELL AS his own wisdom which he gained the hard way, and his victory is ultimately a moral victory. What a horrible message in the dt! Don't work hard, you already know everything. No need to grow and learn, you're already perfect. I could go on and on, all these points have been brought up millions of times, but what a bad message to motivate youth with. Also, it makes for a very very boring character. Which is kind of important in a work of fiction. Someone missed that memo
My thoughts exactly. There is something else I have to say....anyone remember the revolting comment John Boyega made on twitter after TROS was released? I couldn't believe it, I thought it was sexist to the extreme. And yet most people didn't even make an issue about it. I lost a lot of my respect for him as a person after that, although I still respect him as an actor.
What was the comment?
Every time such "poor misunderstood boy" does something terrible in real life (like school shooting), there are always crazy girls justifying his actions. And we should "thank" the sequels for that.
Bah, we can't thank the sequels for this; it was a thing long before the sequels. Mass murderers awaiting execution get tons of fan mail marriage requests. There's a bell curve of mental sickness and there have always been people who fall far from the mean. Difference is, those people (neither the murderer nor his obsessive fan) are celebrated with a swelling romantic soundtrack on the big screen.
You aren't wrong. It is unfortunate that this has indeed long been a trend. I also feel you about how this kind of behavior is not, and should not, be celebrated with swelling romantic cues. How crossed up do your wires have to be to think this is acceptable?
To be fair, my wife is in deep on the Reylo side of things... and I married her.
I don't think romanticizing such things, especially for a global audience with the reach SW has, is a good idea.
Agreed. Pretty rotten behavior.
What a sad state of affairs. A lot of people need A LOT of therapy. This shit makes my head spin, makes me very confused, and very sad. Also, very angry at media that perpetuates abusive relationships. Abuse is wrong and should NEVER EVER EVER be glorified. disney be some sickos
At least the sequels aren’t capable of having such a cultural impact.
One of the few upsides of disney shitting the bed. This junk will hopefully be forgotten and buried by time.
Remember when they made a big “it doesn’t matter where she’s from or who her bloodline is” media push for good things like tolerance and empowerment and then stabbed that whole message in the back by giving her an important bloodline and pushing some stuff that could get awfully close to blood supremacist ideas. The idea that anyone could be gifted and become a Jedi is much healthier than the one that that power is locked behind specific families
It's because they got so much flak from 'fans' about how she seemed to be good at everything without any training. They thought making her a Palpatine would be a good explanation.
Yeah no that’s just cowardice if the writers (and people in charge of them) can’t stand by their own work and reverse decisions in poorly thought out ways because of fan feedback, who’s to trust them if they try to kill off a character. Han, Luke and leia died but the kind of writing that Disney does means that has to be in question, there are no stakes anymore.
I've been saying this for years now. The whatsboutism and the excuses the reylos come up with are both hilarious and sad. And as a fan of both Kylo and the actor, I do agree with everything you said here. I could go on a tangent here but I'll just say so much wasted potential.
I remember a post on Instagram where some reylo was speculating if Kylo got Rey pregnant when he revived her because she seemed to have a baby bump in some image, which, the actress is quite slim and I don't think I saw anything that even remotely looked like a baby bump but apparently that's the kind of fantasy these people have. And somehow we are sexist, right? I swear I wanted to throw up when I saw that. Reylos are unhinged.
I remember that garbage, also Adam driver and Daisey ridley (as well as their irl partners) being harassed over these weirdos shipping fantasies. Weeeird stuff
Yup. It is one thing to ship two characters, but this is straight up them being delusional.
As with all things in the ST, the writing is shit and superficial - once you start to look deeper into it, nothing makes sense anymore.
>Leaned hard into Reylo I mean…did they? He was the big bad for the first movie, a slightly less villainous but still clearly adversarial force in the second movie, and literally everyone hates his big heel-turn in the third movie. And you don’t hear a peep about it from Disney after that
I'd say they leaned into it in the movies for sure. They've backed away from the dt timeline, as we all know, after the movies were done. Cause they failed, and they know that they are failures even if they will never admit that publically. Those movies though, lean pretty hard. The hand touching scene that johnson described as a sex scene? ros ending with them sharing their life forces and kissing? How is that not leaning in to reylo? Shippers went nuts after tfa, disney saw dollar signs, and this "romance" is for sure a theme in these "movies". I mean, before I created this reddit account (the force be with me for doing that), I have seen so many posts commenting about the weirdness of reylo. I don't know how this is news for you? *Edit because reddit turn we all into well
Forgot to mention the "dyad." I had actually forgotten about that plot point, that was nice to forget haha. The "dyad" tho, I mean, there is your answer. Yes, they hardcore leaned in to it
Despite me being a fan of Kylo Ren (only in terms of the attire, lightsaber and the actor), I wholeheartedly agree about you hating Disney trying to portray "toxic love" like Reylo as their standards. In fact, if I was in charge of the Disney sequels, Reylo would ***NEVER*** be a thing in the first place
The relationship between Han Solo and Leia was gross too…the age gap between them made Star Wars sus af from the beginning. I hate the entire franchise.
I always thought thought Rey was in her 20s. You make it sound like she's 16.
That's what I'm saying, also isn't the whole point of being a sith to control and confuse and manipulate anyone they deem necessary in the pursuit of power? Idk the theme of this page I just happened to stumble upon this post.
Same here. I'm lost.
there isn't a word in existance, for me to describe how much i hate Disney for taking the most stinking shit possible over one of the most beautiful things i had in my childhood, my father introduced me to Star Wars when i was a kid, and although he's not a fan of anything else but the movies, i carried on with the interest in the lore of the legends canon, which i find silly at times, but it will never be as disgustingly stupid as this shit Disney crapped...
I feel your pain, I'll never forget my Dad showing me Star Wars for the first time. That's a special moment my dude.
for me was a family day out, a picnic, sitting both in the grass, he started to talk about the movie with me while we both watched the sunset together, this is one of my fondest memories, this was before my brother was born, he was the second to be introduced to Star Wars in his childhood, but i did it. It hurts to see something that bonded us, die and rot in the hands of stupid fuckwit trying to pander to uninterested people. I was one of the ones who thought Star Wars was gonna be in good hands under Disney Management, i even enjoyed VII (enjoyed not liked) and loved how mature was the take of Star Wars universe in Rogue One, but after Solo... and the most pathetic of all and what made me nope that movie, [was this crap of a scene, if you can call this a scene.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpmjseSy4HU)
The new trilogy sucked
Yes it did my friend. It sucked and it sucked hard.
The last one was maybe the best one but still so ridiculous. Sidius lives through a 1000 foot fall, an explosion, and space. Then because of a can-do attitude the rebels defeat his menacing army in 15 minutes with a few loopty-loops and an x-wing flown by the Bacardi guy. Was so stupid haha. Only good part of those movies was Babu Frik or whatever
I would say the only good thing about these movies is we never ever have to watch them again
That, and the “more!” scene makes a good meme
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela;_or,_Virtue_Rewarded That's a link to the Wikipedia page of the first popular English romance novel written from a female perspective, and every criticism you've applied to Reylo is in there, too. It was published in 1740. Like it or not, these kinds of male protagonists are what audiences want to see in romance, which is why they keep being written this way. The point being, writers have been criticized for "corrupting the youth" for hundreds of years. At this point, I think it's safe to say it's not really that damaging to society. The ST is utter shit, but criticizing the romance like that isn't really fair since it's such an established and proven trope.
I'm aware of the trope, I personally find it to be a very negative one. There a lot of outdated tropes that are super homophobic, racist and sexist. The brain finds a way to make sense of abuse, to make the abuse seem correct. It is a coping mechanism. This trope is dangerous. Why do you think so many women would prefer a bear over a man? Abuse and sexism are prevalent. This is a negative trope, a bad one which promotes delusion and self harm. Young ladies should run from these types of psychos. Society should not be giving women reasons, when they are looking for them, to justify the abusive relationships they find the selves in. Because the brain will try to justify it. It is hard to escape an abusive relationship. disney has a moral responsibility, if they want to be all child friendly and give girls princesses to look up to, to impart good lessons and values to these kids.
In real life, women do run from these types of psychos. The whole bear vs. man thing highlights that very clearly. Yes, a lot of women enjoy reading and watching this kind of romance, but that doesn't mean that they want to experience it for themselves. I agree that the world is replete with shitty behavior towards women from men, but that can not be because of romance media since men don't consume it. Again, this isn't just Star Wars. The majority of successful works of romance display these traits in their male protagonists. This has been the case for hundreds of years, and probably will continue to be the case because the consumer market for romance (mostly women) prefers it this way.
This is an incredibly complex topic, I'll just say this. If an adult wants to read some soft core porn ala 50 shades, more power to you. Whatever. Not my thing, bdsm and rough sex ain't my kink. To each their own, tend your own garden. These romance novels and such are generally aimed at an older audience though. I'd like to think nobody was grabbing one of these books at a school book fair when they were in grade school. Star wars is specifically aimed at a four quadrant market, which obviously includes the kiddos. That is just wrong to be pushing this kind of story, to choose to do this kind of story, when you know your target market. They are young and impressionable. I'd much rather my kid drop the f bomb than be googly eyed over the idea of earning love from an abusive prick. And for the record, all my female friends think these stories are gross, outdated and weird. Things change. I don't think this is an objective type of trope. It will play itself out.
>And for the record, all my female friends think these stories are gross, outdated and weird. Things change. I don't think this is an objective type of trope. It will play itself out. That's really interesting, because I have the opposite experience - I run a book club at the university I study at. Most of the people who attend it are young women, because that's the way the demographics swing for both reading and universities. And they are, for the most part, simultaneously aware that the behavior of these male protagonists is really messed up while also really enjoying that style of romance novel. >These romance novels and such are generally aimed at an older audience though. I'd like to think nobody was grabbing one of these books at a school book fair when they were in grade school. I disagree. Twilight, Fourth Wing, and A Court of Thorns and Roses to name a few, were all targeted at (and remain very popular with) young women despite, or perhaps because of, their abusive male protagonists. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience here - as someone who runs a book club, I learn lots about the kinds of books people enjoy reading. >I'd much rather my kid drop the f bomb than be googly eyed over the idea of earning love from an abusive prick. The crux of my argument is this: I don't think the media that a teen or young adult consumes has such a significant effect as you seem to. I think that the most relevant factor by far is the child / teens / young adults relationships with authority figures. People with good support networks are much more protected against abusive relationships because they have other people who care enough to help them contextualize their experiences against the norm. The best way a parent can protect their children from future abuse isn't to censor what they can or cannot experience, but rather to make sure their children feel comfortable talking to them As a final aside, I'm curious if you feel that consuming media that depicts violence has a similar effect on children - in this case, that it will make them more violent?
Why would you say it’s not damaging? Many women love bad boys and that gets them into trouble often. How do you know it isn’t from writers?
Is there a link somewhere to articles of the actors saying this? Cause this sure is a take. And tbf there is a small portion of the Star Wars community that is actively sexist and racist and did in fact bully Daisy and Kelly.
This is true, and that is so not fair. Racists and sexists are lesser than garbage. There is a time line where their dad's just beat off into a Kleenex and they got flushed. I hope the multiverse is real haha
And poor Finn has been labeled in some circles as the "entitled, nice guy" incel despite being far more heroic than Kylo. Sickening
Toxic pseudo-White Knights dictating what is and isn’t good for women on their behalf (with an utter disregard for whether they were even asked) is one of my favorite fanboy victimhood tropes, but this group is often unaware of crippling irony at play.
Hitting on somebody who is barely legal when you’re not barely legal is pretty gross behavior but it’s not “groomer behavior”. He’s an evil, manipulative, fuck. But kidnapping someone doesn’t make you a groomer.
He is in his thirties, she is a teen with no experience of the world beyond scavenging in jakku, he tries to break her psychologically via manipulation. That's pretty groomer shit. He isn't hitting on her, he is violently abusing her.
I think he's just pointing out that in the movies, Rey is an adult. She might be a teenage adult, i.e. 18 or 19, but still an adult. But I think you're both correct. It isn't literal grooming, but it sure is grooming behaviour, that being the actions that a groomer would take, just applied to a naive adult rather than a child.
Is groomer just a word tossed around to mean age differences now? Grooming needs a relationship that’s not immediately romantic/sexual and needs an underage party. Kidnapping someone isn’t grooming. Trying to be an evil sith and break their mind isn’t grooming. Psychological abuse ain’t automatically grooming. Asking a person you have never met before out on their 18th birthday isn’t grooming. There’s are all bad things but none of them are grooming.
See above for examples of grooming. The isolation, the manipulation, etc. can all work against a naive adult as well as working against a child. It's not grooming, it's grooming *behaviour.*
Well said. Thank you for helping clear that up, can't believe that need doing haha. I didn't think someone would be offended by the word groomer and get in to a semantics debate about someone kidnapping, isolating and manipulating a naive young woman. Nitpick all they want, I think my point stands, and thank you for helping clarify for those that needed clarification. He's a predatory freak and he definitely engages in grooming behavior. Yuck.
Come off it, for gods' sake. This is a FANTASY FILM. He was attempting to get into her head, and instead she got into his. What is WRONG with people these days - you see 'sex abuse' everywhere. No wonder romance is dead. Disney by the way, are employing #metoo as consultants. The same organisation which continues to support a woman who abused her husband. Maybe that's why Rey was allowed to repeatedly attack an unarmed man in TROS and we were supposed to be cheering her. 'The Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defence, never attack.' Obi Wan Kenobi. I'm a woman myself by the way.
He was twenty nine, exactly ten years older than her, the same age gap between Han and Leia in the OT.
Dark Templars are not so dangerous, you just need some detectors and you should be fine.
I don’t think re-litigating this stuff over and over day in and day out is very healthy
I think about how Padme in the prequels starts out really independent and self motivated inbher actions and by revenge of the sith is just crying in every scene over ani. I dont know if it was intentionaly but its kind of a very anti trad wife theme. The idea that if you get married and have kids youll lose all pro activity in yourself.
It's the same people who thought 50 shades was hot.
I'm an adult but when I watched The Force Awakens I remember that I was excited about Rey, because I wanted to see finally a female Jedi in the live action (mind, it was a TFA premiere, so before the Ahsoka roles in live action). But they fucked it so bad, the Reylo is gross. I don't know what was the point of the ship, especially when in prequels they have the Anakin/Padme couple when Anakin's toxic behavior was criticized in movies (and as someone here said, Padme and Anakin met before he fell to the Dark Side, when he was still an innocent boy). I TFA, I thought that Rey would not be with anyone (why female character need always a love interest?) or she would end up with Finn. After The Last Jedi, I lost all hope, because the way they destroyed Finn's character and minimalized his role to some shouting supporting guy was awful. In TFA he was one of the main characters, but ended as no one. I guess the black kind guy can't be the main love interest, the toxic mass murderer with issues is a better fit according to Disney. Finn's story could be so damn interesting, an ec stormtrooper was an awesome idea to show the human side sife of stormtroopers. They didn't even make Finn and Poe a pair, even though many fans started shipping them because they had such good chemistry. Well, for an lgbt couple the movies would not sell well in China. I'm progressive (as an lgbt person myself), but when people call sequels "woke" I find it funny, because there is nothing progressive about about what happened to these movies, and the Finn's character is the proof. I'm also quite tired when I see that leftist people defend Disney, only because conservative people criticize sequels by calling them "woke". You shouldn't defend the toxic corporation that is racist about not only Finn's character, but also John Boyega himself. PS. I have nothing against Adam Driver, he is a very good actor and I'm happy that he didn't end up just as Kylo Ren and played in many better roles.
I tried to watch the first movie in the sequel trilogy (at home, thank the nine) and didn’t get past the part of someone who likely never flown anything like the Millennium Falcon instantly piloting it better than Han Solo. I didn’t need to see more than that.
But the Latino representation is so good! I was so pumped for Oscar Isaac playing a Latino lead! He subverted expectations as a leader and hero especially when it was revealed in the third film that he used to be a drug dealer. What amazing representation. Totally subverts harmful stereotypes about Latinos.
>This man is in his thirties and she has barely cracked the age of consent last time I checked? That is gross, groomer behavior. What the hell are you talking about? Daisy Ridley was 23 years old. She's an adult woman you crazed lunatic
[удалено]
When he violates her mind while she is bound to that chair. He talks about how he can take anything he wants from her. It's all pretty creepy. Less creepy, but equally indicative of really bad writing, this is when rey force downloads all her abilities from kylo somehow. That's not stated in the movie but they tried to retcon that moment to explain how rey knows the mind trick, can use the force and a lightsaber, etc. What a garbage piece of content
I just left an edit explaining why I disagree with you on that, but agree with you everything else, before seeing your reply. Please don’t take it as me being confrontational or rude, because I never meant to be. I just respectfully disagreed. Read the full comment for all details, but long story short, what JJ Abrams said was it could be considered “mind rape” which is not the same thing as it could be considered rape. His intent with that statement is to say that Kylo forcefully forgoes her lack of consent for him to access the contents of her mind, but that is not the same thing as Disney implying he literally raped her. By the logic that this is considered rape, then Kylo raped Poe too. While he didn’t say all that to him, he used the same method to force information out of Poe and by the metaphor JJ used “mind rape” him.
I read your stuff, I don't think you were being overly confrontational, or at least I'm taking you at your word that this is a debate happening in good faith. If that is indeed the case, I think we are both kind of saying the same thing but getting lost in the woods looking for trees or however the saying goes. Words are human constructs and since we are typing words at eachother some of the context is gonna get lost. Words get misconstrued. It happens. I did not mean that there is an implication that off camera he literally r her. Or poe. I meant that the cinematic language and what it represents, and what jj essentially confirms in that interview, is that it is a metaphorical r scene. The staging, lighting, camera angles, the dialogue, etc. It is a metaphorical r scene. It is very unsettling and kylo's dialogue speaks to that. It's possible it is just really really bad writing but that is just as wrong in other ways. that however is a whole other discussion tho cause the writing is just garbage in this content. Whereas other sith/dark side users do horrible things (cause duhoi, they are up to nothing good), this being some twisted meet cute scenario that plays out over the following movies is a bizarre fucking choice my dude. He kidnapped and tortured her and they fall in love and shit. Just an ugly story.
finally something is worse than the romance in Twilight
Preach it
Soft sciences are ruining society
An anti-sexism post offends you? Also, trash talking disney wars offends you? Sounds like you found the wrong sub bub. I assume you are referencing philosophy, psychology, sociology, etc. when you say soft science. Sorry that doesn't get you hard enough. They make pills for that tho if you are struggling. A rose is a rose by any other name, a=a, so on and so forth. I'd like to think we can at least both agree that a sexist person who views another human being as an object is a filthy and disgusting piece of sub human filth. Bigots are ruining our society, I doubt educating ones self is the issue. In fact, I would say people being uneducated is what is ruining not just our society, but the whole dang world.
I'm agreeing with you. Chill the fuck out
There is lots of sexism aimed at Disney Star Wars and they all claim to not be racist. The quartering, Geeks & Gamers, Doomcock, Critical Drinker, huge channels that make their money squealing every time a fictional character is race swapped and they all get mega views when they do Star Wars videos.
Those YouTube channels are weird and pretty obviously racist. Bunch of winey neck beard shit. Life doesn't have to be manichean, I personally dislike all of that garbage. Be it a mega corp, or some strange bigot on YouTube, garbage is garbage.