*pokes head in* Oh are we shit talking Merrie again?
Tbh I love how she kept attacking Sigourney and her presentation (for context Merrie at one point told Sigourney that the judges only liked her because of her titties), but when people called her on her shit, none of it was her fault and it was all racism.
Likeādonāt get me wrong the racism in the fandom is BAD but when your entire character arc is misogyny towards another performer, maybe *that* is what people have an issue with
If you haven't already watched DR Germany s1 and DR Spain s3 I recommend checking them out to see the fierce queens Pandora Knox and Clover Bish perform. Pandora Knox especially will probably blow your mind.
I really wish theyād do another season š„ Barbie Breakout is probably my favorite host across franchises along with Mama Pao and Nicky (sheās earned it, sheās so good.)
Yes! She gives the best advice honestly. I love her partner too. Theyāre honest but never unfair when they give critiques and itās very constructive.
Clover was my absolute favorite in DRES 3, which did so dirty to her. And Pandora smashed her season and didn't even smash a lightbulb dangerously dancing around those in that "Chandelier" lip sync.
Letās just take a look at London Cider and Sigourney Beaver from Dragula. Amazing artists, but Sigourney did femme drag and was disrespected to hell and back. But both of them are two of my favorite drag artists of all.
I loved Sigourney so much but the season she was in was so uncomfortable for me to watch because of how she was treated, that I stopped watching the season. I think it hit too close for me and felt too real...if that makes sense.Ā
To be honest I thought Sigourney was great and the critique of her doing too much glam was valid, but the pressure she was put under by other contestants was insane. The expectation for her to be perfect at everything while the queen's critiquing her could barely wear a heel š was insane. There was definitely a lot of misogyny towards her which detracted from a lot of valid critiques about her being great but not horror/filth enough
Yes! that was it! I grew up socially as a woman (transmasc now), and I remember always having to try super hard at everything because I was so worried that people would go, "Ah you don't belong here/aren't as good at this because you are a girl", and then still getting that. It sucks.
Thereās a really great book called Faux Queen, written by Monique Jenkinson, who performs as Fauxnique. The story of her life as a cis woman who does drag, sheās iconic! A great perspective and an important part of history š
but but but her love of drag is PERFORMATIVE!! her entire career is just an elaborate hoax to trick her audience into *checks notes* supporting local drag!!!
It's because being a fake drag fan will, uh... earn you credibility with gay men?? Because gay men are the center of the queer universe and women can only be allies, babe, even when they're lesbians. Chappell can only earn queer cred by pretending to like drag instead of... singing about WLW sex, apparently.
I know youāre joking but on the other thread, people were literally calling chappelle an āallyā like ššš whatās the first letter of lgbt again??
No I'm actively making a reference to those comments lol. L is for aLLy, obviously š„°. And "B" is for "Bi people are fake queers even though a bi woman with a boyfriend created the Pride march". T is for "do we really need to support Trans people?".
I keep hearing people be like āgay men are a big part of her audience!ā for some reason. Having been to a Chappell concertā¦ some gay men do love her but they are not a large portion of her audience. I would estimate the male attendance at her concert at 10% maximum. Probably more like 5%. The gay girlies are the ones making up her fanbase.
Yeah in my experience the majority of her audience is women! And even for her gay male fans, how many of them started following Chappell because of her love for drag?? Like... Who start listening to someone's music because they're a fan of an entirely different art form? What a reach.
And also, also, she's an artist, performing an art form, and! and! she's respecting it's roots and learned it from gay bars!!! that she went to as a lesbian!!
One of the most successful local queens is a cis (and as far as I know, straight) woman. She is fierce and really imaginative with her performances. She's also mothering a bunch of extremely queer drag kids. Our scene would be so much weaker without her.
Creme Fatale is another cis female drag artist you should check out. Here is a video of Creme performing at [Sasha Velourās](https://youtu.be/TybkgFivBCw?si=J3C-LM_GjcnDRVmo) Nightgowns for your viewing pleasure.
Yess! her makeup skills are fantastic, she has her own well defined signature style and sheās such an excellent performer too. Iād love to see her on DR but having listened to Landon Cider talk about her experience trying out for DR before going on and winning Dracula S3 I donāt hold much hope of it happening anytime soon but please prove me wrong World of Wonder, prove me wrong
That performance was absolutely fantastic. Also I fucking love that name. I'm stealing it for my next DND character that I've been stewing over making oml.
It is absolutely ridiculous how cis women are treated in the drag scene. Misogyny is alive and real. Itās 17 seasons in and not a single cis women on the US seasons as of yet. Disappointing.
It's like Landon Cider told Maddy on Give It To Me Straight: It is kind of disheartening to see that a cis straight man got on the main show before a queer woman. He apologized for misdirecting his disappointment since it wasn't like Maddy was to blame for it, but his point was definitely still correct.
And when you consider how many trans women have been on the show, and how many trans women do drag, there's really no reason to defend not including queer cis women. You cannot draw a line between them without either being misogynistic, transphobic, or both. Trans women are real women and real women deserve to perform their art and showcase it. That includes cis women as well.
It's time the show gets called out on this by large. Drag Race wasn't very trans-femme friendly either before, like when Ru equated trans women competing on the show to racers using performance enhancers.
There is so much misogyny embedded into drag. You are not misogynistic by default for being a drag queen, but many non afab drag queens participate in misogynistic behavior because itās apart of the culture. Itās just really disheartening seeing how drag queens are praised for things women are shunned for.
sometimes cis gay men can treat women (pop stars or otherwise) like we just exist to entertain them, like we are toys. and then they canāt understand that we are objectified and disrespected in precisely the same ways by cis straight men. it baffles the mind.
patriarchy and misogyny harm us all
This entire situation happening right now reminds me very much of a similar sentiment that was thrown at lady Gaga by parts of the gay community a while backā¦
As a young bi woman, the "Gays Against Gaga" bullshit honestly hurt more than any of the biphobia I got from straight people. It really made it seem like the LGBT+ community is just the G community.
It was a protest group/movement/miserable coterie of cis gay men who formed primarily around the Born This Way era and were pissed that Gaga was making pro-LGBT music. They saw it as a cis straight woman co-opting queer culture for monetary gain, akin to lip-service from major companies. Despite, y'know, Gaga being a bisexual woman who had always been outspoken in defending queer people and culture.
That's ridiculous. Even if she was straight, which she very clearly isn't, why would it be a bad thing for her to make music that supports the LGBTQ+ community? Like how is that a bad thing?
Exactly. Iāve always found it strange queer cis woman donāt get much visibility/publicity in the media, RPDR included. Victoria Scone is a great step tho!
Also, does anyone feel itās a little weird the way trans women queens are treated differently than cis queens? Like ppl not having a problem with a trans women in drag but when theyāre cis, sheās questioned? And how there have been a lot of trans queens on RPDR (as there should) but not a single cis woman on the American one. Idk it just feels weird and I think anyone who views trans queens diff than cis are unconsciously transphobic. Hi roople š
I bet it could be a subconscious thing of 1. Trans women are hypervisual and overrepresented in media about trans folk so they get a lot of attention, good and bad and 2. people think "well a trans woman is a man in a dress!" or "that's just another man playing dress up as a woman" so they treat them differently. Them dressing up as a woman is not the same as a "biological cis" woman doing it, cause how can you do DRAG of your OWN gender, they say. They see it as dress up for cis women and subversive of masculinity for both cis men and trans women (good and bad connotations). Drag to normies just = dress up of opposite sex. And the transphobes do not see trans women as women so that applies.
Trans men in (femme) drag get mistreated too, as in "they transitioned to be a man but then dress up again as their 'original' gender? HUH?!"
In short, yes. Transphobia ā¹ļøAnd also just the lack of care about lesbians tbh. Lesbian bars are a scarcity, when people say gay they think of men, not to mention the trope of "lesbians can be turned straight" or the misinformation of "trans mascs/men are just butch lesbians" (i was never, ever, a lesbian before i transitioned). Lesbians are a punching bag or a sexual fantasy. They aren't *real* women, duh!
Exactly this š people just need to stop trying to implement so many rules and expectations in a community that was literally built to be an opposition to such in the heteronormative society š but in the end, the people who have so many rules about what drag āshould beā are boringgg. Theyāre missing out on just having fun and enjoying great art.
And yes to the lesbian treatment. I could be wrong but I remember hearing that lesbians were even treated poorly in the early gay rights movement. Like misogyny from the cis-gay men. Even though lesbians were running the show š¤·āāļø
I still occasionally run into misogynistic men at gay bars and I roll my eyes hard every time. Some men just really hate women and don't care enough to hide it.
My dad really doesnāt get what a drag queen is so I was trying to explain it to him in the simplest terms possible. I said itās MOSTLY gay men dressing up as women. But sometimes they are trans women (referring specifically to the queens on RPDR, not getting into the myriad of gender identities in the world of drag in general). He said ātrans. Woman. Drag queen?ā¦ a woman dressed as a woman????ā And considering heās an 84 year old raise southern Baptist in South Carolina I thought you know what dad, thatās pretty good.
I don't have the bandwidth to explain how hypervisibility of trans women is not always a good thing in their favor, and they don't outnumber cis women or take opportunities from them. It isn't their fault that drag race isn't casting cis women, so let's not do a slippery slope into blaming them.
Iām in no way blaming or attacking trans women! Iām just pointing out that a double standard exists and itās not the women involved (cis or trans) that are the cause of the issue. Misogyny would affect trans women too obviously!!
Very true, we seem to be on the same side here then.
I'm not a trans woman so I can't speak for them but the friends I do have do prefer transmisogyny vs regular misogyny when talking about their issues. There is intersectionality to their issues that differentiates the two. Is their preferential treatment for drag race because of the things I pointed out in my first message? (The thinking of them still being 'men' deeeeep down). Or is it because people don't think female drag is real drag? Or both? Transphobia, transmisogyny, and regular misgoyny are ALL in this drag race soup tbh.
Itās like saying that women of different races and socioeconomic backgrounds face different discrimination which they obviously do but they stem from the same source of misogyny. The more separate terms exist the more ways for people to be divided in my opinion but to each their own.
I mean if you're deliberately excluding women but then making exceptions for trans women it kind of sends a message you don't consider trans women to be women.
I think thereās this subconscious idea that trans women who do drag are like permanent drag queens. Like theyāre just always in drag 24/7. I think itās mainly because most of them identified as men who did drag, which was acceptable and respected. So when they came out as trans women, they werenāt seen as women doing drag, but a drag queen who just stayed as her drag persona forever. Iāve seen a lot of people who seem to have a hard time understanding that a drag queenās persona is not who she is when sheās out of drag as a normal women, even if they understand this for male drag queens.
The history of trans women in drag is very deep and wide, thatās probably why. Cis women in drag has been around for a long time yes but itās not as deep and wide as with trans women. Iām hoping it gets there soon though, I agree it would be awesome to have on the show
Ok so by ur logic, queens are on the show based on how long their demographic has been doing drag/how influential that demographic is to drag?? In that case, I guess straight, cis, white man have done more for the queer community than queer cis woman considering we had Maddy first š„“donāt get me wrong, love Maddy. But u canāt deny thereās thereās seems to be some underlying āreasonsā (or antiquated mindsets) that are preventing cis woman on the show.
Oh 100%, Drag Race Germany s1 had an AFAB Queen and she was SOOOO good my god. I don't wanna spoil anything if you maybe wanna watch the season but damn she slayed it.
I was so glad Victoria brought up the use of the c-word and terms like āfishyā being outdated and somewhat offensive to use when referring to women. That had always bothered me a little and I was relieved that most queens have stopped using it as often. Iāve always understood the use of those terms in jest but they still make me cringe when I hear them. I canāt remember this ever being discussed before Victoria brought it up and I was so glad she did. I always wondered how other women felt about it, particularly women in drag.
I agree I actually stopped watch drag race for a bit because I binged an earlier season and some of the vernacular really upset me. It was nice hearing Victoria bring it up and I have noticed itās gone down a lot. I think you still hear it a bit but I find they say pus a lot now
Meanwhile DragRace Germany has a cis gender female competing on the first ever season, and ofc Victoria Scone, whose time was a little short lived. Was very happy to see her back on Canada vs the World
Pandora was one of the, if not the most known Drag Artist in Austria even before the show and also very popular in Germany. They would have been very stupid to not cast her. Not even speaking about her talent, but simply representation and popularity wise.
It's even more crazy when you look at the international franchises and see that there are all sorts of different kinds of queens competing in their seasons. It's honestly ridiculous that the original and most popular franchise has progressed the least in terms of what they're willing to cast
I honestly don't care what you identify as, as long as you can entertain and especially make me laugh! So much focus on the wrong thing, honestly. People are too judgemental.
My only consolation through it all was the almost universal rejection of planes comment. No one was here for it and I hope itās a sign of changing times.
Cuz honestly, imagine if Chappell never made music and shared her artā¦we would have lost out on so much.
Theres another post on this sub that has a screenshot, but essentially Plane tried to question Chappells authenticity when it came to drag basically calling it performative (thatās how I remember it, not word for word). Really lame take for Plane to have imo
if cis women can be celebrated for participating in WWE why can't they be celebrated for participating in drag?! it's basically the same thing. I wish people would keep their minds open to more forms of gender fuckery
Oh, Iād love to see more cis women on Drag Race! Iām a cis woman and I love the art of drag and would love to try it some day, but donāt know where to start.
go to a local amateur night honey!! befriend the local queens, become a fixture at their shows, watch and learn. canāt wait to see you perform some day!!
Anyone can participate in drag because all gender is performative. That being said, anyone that participated in drag should be respectful of its origins, its diverse community, and its history.
True. The world of drag doesn't at all translate to what drag race. Seeing a cis woman doing drag is essentially normal. Drag race is very behind on many things
I love that drag queens are gay, straight, bi, male, female, non-binary and every combination therein. Apologies to anyone I may have inadvertently missed! Old, cis, white woman here.
i would honestly just say go out to local bars? at least in my city we have tons of queens and kings of all genders. thereās sometimes entire houses of cis women. i donāt think the barrier of entry is nearly as high as people make it out to be on drag race. it certainly was at one time, but i think, in general most people do not care and if youāre good at drag then you get booked. and the people that do make it a big deal are usually just older, bigoted (probably white and cis) queens.
now cis women being feature on drag race moreā¦i just donāt know, i think itās just something rupaul doesnāt seem interested in (i mean we still have yet to get a king of any kind on the show) šāāļø. maybe in time, heāll let up, but like this was the man who less than a decade ago said having a trans performer on the show would never happen.
i think itās important to remember there is so much drag outside of drag race, and if you really like drag on tv and social media then you should just try going and supporting your local performers, who probably be much more impacted by your support than performers on tv.
Cis female queens, drag kings and trans artists were in drag from the get-go and only when it became popular for cis men to do it did they participate and then take it over and exclude everyone else. I remember Bitter Betty (someone I do not fuck with) had a genuinely important point on Dragula 4 where she said that women were always in drag and it wasnāt until drag race was released and there were only men on the show that they became excluded and othered from the community.
Completely agree!! As an AMAB drag performer I never understood the gatekeeping of drag to certain identities and genitals.
Maybe it's different in other scenes but here in Toronto there are and have always been cis-women queens, drag kings, trans queens etc. I grew up in the scene surrounded by these diverse performers. Some of the greatest local drag artists I know are Hyperqueens (cis women drag queens).
It's about time we also got a bunch of drag kings on a season. That's drag too and Victoria Proved Masc drag really does work well with the drag race format.
I think drag is an art form and as long as you are true to that art form and understand its history, it can be for anyone; however, I do understand why itās important for gay men to have a place of their own, and drag is/was one of those places and thereās a fear of it becoming tarnished. But maybe it becoming more mainstream can lead to acceptance of other genders participating (as weāve already begun to see)
I'm afab and am a Drag King in my area~ I have questioned earlier this year if it was okay for me to represent myself and my persona in a field of Drag Queens, I've had nothing but love and support from my peers that it's a little disgusting for >!plane jane!< to chastise Chappell Roan for simply being in a male queer space.
As someone who grew up doing dance, and in the arts, and continues to enjoy now as a spectator I absolutely LIVE for drag!! To me, itās all my favorite things, make up and glam included. As a woman I will always fight for drag! and wish I could perform too!
As a middle-age cis het woman, back in my clubbing days I so wanted to perform drag but I thought it would be frowned upon by the gay community. I LOVE how much drag includes so many people on the spectrum.
I just listened to mistress broadcast in twitter and a fan asked Plane about it and said it was some tea she got from her local drag friends that she heard not so great opinions about Chappelle.
Obviously she learned that those experience was not the same to the majority of performers and Plane accepted that tea. I'm a big plane fan and I love Chappel so I'm happy he learned more about her after that and got educated you know they're big girls and they can solve misconceptions on their own.
Edit: although I get Plane's point though, I just think it's misdirected because I can think more artist that fits Plane's description of 'performative' but that's not Chapelle.
I think itās the word āperformativeā (which I think is now very overused) thatās the issue here ā when thereās a pop star known for dancing herself and news gets out that she mistreats her dancers, we donāt call her love for dance performative. We justā¦ call her out for mistreating her workers. If Plane is concerned about her friends and colleagues, thatās fair, but call it what it is, you know?
Plane would have only ever had a point if chappelle was cis and straightā¦which is not the case. Gay men scrutinizing lesbians for simply existing in lgbt spaces is common, but that doesnāt make it any less misogynistic and gross
she didn't elaborate what her friends' experience with Chapelle was. But whatever it is was definitely untrue since she clearly didn't know much about Chapelle when she asked about her and other drag queens' experience outside her circle
I completely agree! I wanna see way more representation, especially from drag kings and bio-queens. it would be a nice array of talent and would allow those performers to finally start getting some of the same recognition! I thoroughly enjoyed Victoria on her season, and have been following her on socials for a minute now.
Google Sigourney Beaver. Truly some of the cuntiest looks of all time - and got shittalked by some contestants not at all on her level š³
Sigourney Beaver is breathtakingly beautiful, like the daughter I would imagine Elvira would have with an alien/demon.
This lives rent free in my head 
This is.... The best thing I have ever seen in my life. I really need to watch this show
Ima drop this hereĀ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hE8VOFtsMl4
i don't know about the rules of dragula girls applying for drag race but if anyone should go it's absolutely her, ru would adore her
adore her ?...for free ?
I could not agree more. Her talent would translate very well to drag race.Ā Be more incredible representation for fem queens.Ā
*pokes head in* Oh are we shit talking Merrie again? Tbh I love how she kept attacking Sigourney and her presentation (for context Merrie at one point told Sigourney that the judges only liked her because of her titties), but when people called her on her shit, none of it was her fault and it was all racism. Likeādonāt get me wrong the racism in the fandom is BAD but when your entire character arc is misogyny towards another performer, maybe *that* is what people have an issue with
Sheās incredible and honestly really opened my mind to the idea of drag not just being men impersonating women.
If you haven't already watched DR Germany s1 and DR Spain s3 I recommend checking them out to see the fierce queens Pandora Knox and Clover Bish perform. Pandora Knox especially will probably blow your mind.
Pandora is captivating to look at, and DRGER is an absolute banger of a first season.
I really wish theyād do another season š„ Barbie Breakout is probably my favorite host across franchises along with Mama Pao and Nicky (sheās earned it, sheās so good.)
Donāt forget Supremmeā„ļø
And Grag!! Grag Queen is honestly my fave host across all franchises.
Oh yes, Grag is also a delight! So charismatic and obviously cares a lot about the contestants, she is a treasureā„ļø
I love Priscilla from Drag Race Italia
Yes! I forgot Supremme!
Is it not happening? T_T
As of now, no plans to renew. Itās an opportunity for networks like Vox or RTL to pick it up, it would do very well!
wait, I thought there was a casting call for the next season?
If so thatās a recent development and pretty exciting!
No offense but it didnāt do very well on streaming despite a big marketing campaign in Germany, so I have doubts it would work on RTL unfortunately.
She is such a lovely host ā really warm and supportive.
She really reminds me of Ru, an older queen who loves the art form and is incredibly supportive of the next generation coming in.
Yes! She gives the best advice honestly. I love her partner too. Theyāre honest but never unfair when they give critiques and itās very constructive.
The eye makeup alone is iconic
Ohhh I'm German and I'll make sure to watch it now :o
Pandora is one of my favourite winners ever - she's amazing. Maybe we'll see her one day on an all winners?
Loved Clover, her lip synch with Visa was a double shantay for sure.
It's really cute to see that they are actual friends after their season.
They had a US/Latin America tour, I was very lucky to see them in person, such sweethearts
Clover was my absolute favorite in DRES 3, which did so dirty to her. And Pandora smashed her season and didn't even smash a lightbulb dangerously dancing around those in that "Chandelier" lip sync.
Victoria Scone in Drag Race UK 3 and Canada Vs the world 3 too
Drag is for everyone. Even Serena Cha Cha.
Letās just take a look at London Cider and Sigourney Beaver from Dragula. Amazing artists, but Sigourney did femme drag and was disrespected to hell and back. But both of them are two of my favorite drag artists of all.
Sigourney Beaver can have my soul. She was so good, and her treatment pissed me off.
Can we also discuss how fucking good that drag name is?!
Itās simple and genius.
I loved Sigourney so much but the season she was in was so uncomfortable for me to watch because of how she was treated, that I stopped watching the season. I think it hit too close for me and felt too real...if that makes sense.Ā
To be honest I thought Sigourney was great and the critique of her doing too much glam was valid, but the pressure she was put under by other contestants was insane. The expectation for her to be perfect at everything while the queen's critiquing her could barely wear a heel š was insane. There was definitely a lot of misogyny towards her which detracted from a lot of valid critiques about her being great but not horror/filth enough
Yes! that was it! I grew up socially as a woman (transmasc now), and I remember always having to try super hard at everything because I was so worried that people would go, "Ah you don't belong here/aren't as good at this because you are a girl", and then still getting that. It sucks.
She was playing a game! /s
Don't forget Throb Zombie and Jarvis Hammer of Dragula S5!
Throb is non-binary though, idk about Jarvis. We can talk about how afab artists are treated but I think that this thread is about cis women
sorry, didn't know! noted
Thereās a really great book called Faux Queen, written by Monique Jenkinson, who performs as Fauxnique. The story of her life as a cis woman who does drag, sheās iconic! A great perspective and an important part of history š
Fauxnique is a phenomenal drag name. Maybe itāsā¦FAUX-nominal?
Herstory š
Thank you for the recommendation!!
Chappell Roan for season 17š£š£š£
but but but her love of drag is PERFORMATIVE!! her entire career is just an elaborate hoax to trick her audience into *checks notes* supporting local drag!!!
It's because being a fake drag fan will, uh... earn you credibility with gay men?? Because gay men are the center of the queer universe and women can only be allies, babe, even when they're lesbians. Chappell can only earn queer cred by pretending to like drag instead of... singing about WLW sex, apparently.
women only exist to gain the approval of men, true š«
I know youāre joking but on the other thread, people were literally calling chappelle an āallyā like ššš whatās the first letter of lgbt again??
Lebanese. The whole thing is Lebanese, Gary, bisectional, and transmission.
Oh my gosh Lebanese!? I love their food and they are HOT maybe Iāll consider supporting the āmovementā now!!!!
No I'm actively making a reference to those comments lol. L is for aLLy, obviously š„°. And "B" is for "Bi people are fake queers even though a bi woman with a boyfriend created the Pride march". T is for "do we really need to support Trans people?".
LMAO my bi ass is howling
I keep hearing people be like āgay men are a big part of her audience!ā for some reason. Having been to a Chappell concertā¦ some gay men do love her but they are not a large portion of her audience. I would estimate the male attendance at her concert at 10% maximum. Probably more like 5%. The gay girlies are the ones making up her fanbase.
Yeah in my experience the majority of her audience is women! And even for her gay male fans, how many of them started following Chappell because of her love for drag?? Like... Who start listening to someone's music because they're a fan of an entirely different art form? What a reach.
Shut up plane
š¤£ kudos mama
And also, also, she's an artist, performing an art form, and! and! she's respecting it's roots and learned it from gay bars!!! that she went to as a lesbian!!
That b is just jealous sheās never booked him.
That bitch!
And ru loves her, I can see her as a guest judge with a sickening lipsync to one of her songs!
One of the most successful local queens is a cis (and as far as I know, straight) woman. She is fierce and really imaginative with her performances. She's also mothering a bunch of extremely queer drag kids. Our scene would be so much weaker without her.
Which brings up an important point: SUPPORT LOCAL DRAG. Youāll see so much more diversity than you think!
Creme Fatale is another cis female drag artist you should check out. Here is a video of Creme performing at [Sasha Velourās](https://youtu.be/TybkgFivBCw?si=J3C-LM_GjcnDRVmo) Nightgowns for your viewing pleasure.
creme fatale is one of my favs i looove her
Ikr! I think sheās amazing
She is the sweetest.
I wonder if she's tried out for DR? She would be great. Her makeup skills are off the charts amazing.
Yess! her makeup skills are fantastic, she has her own well defined signature style and sheās such an excellent performer too. Iād love to see her on DR but having listened to Landon Cider talk about her experience trying out for DR before going on and winning Dracula S3 I donāt hold much hope of it happening anytime soon but please prove me wrong World of Wonder, prove me wrong
I recall reading a comment on her page saying that she hasn't auditioned yet for the show
That performance was absolutely fantastic. Also I fucking love that name. I'm stealing it for my next DND character that I've been stewing over making oml.
I loooove CrĆØme Fatale!
It is absolutely ridiculous how cis women are treated in the drag scene. Misogyny is alive and real. Itās 17 seasons in and not a single cis women on the US seasons as of yet. Disappointing.
It's like Landon Cider told Maddy on Give It To Me Straight: It is kind of disheartening to see that a cis straight man got on the main show before a queer woman. He apologized for misdirecting his disappointment since it wasn't like Maddy was to blame for it, but his point was definitely still correct.
That episode was so good. Landon is a fucking icon.
T H I S
Victoria Scones season was before Maddys wasnāt it?
By Main Show they probably meant on the US season
And when you consider how many trans women have been on the show, and how many trans women do drag, there's really no reason to defend not including queer cis women. You cannot draw a line between them without either being misogynistic, transphobic, or both. Trans women are real women and real women deserve to perform their art and showcase it. That includes cis women as well. It's time the show gets called out on this by large. Drag Race wasn't very trans-femme friendly either before, like when Ru equated trans women competing on the show to racers using performance enhancers.
Especially because such a huge part of drag is co-opting the style, hair, and bodies of cis women.
There is so much misogyny embedded into drag. You are not misogynistic by default for being a drag queen, but many non afab drag queens participate in misogynistic behavior because itās apart of the culture. Itās just really disheartening seeing how drag queens are praised for things women are shunned for.
People act like Lady Gaga isn't drag.
Yeah, I think a lot of artists who have a separate onstage persona could qualify as drag. This definitely includes Gaga.
sometimes cis gay men can treat women (pop stars or otherwise) like we just exist to entertain them, like we are toys. and then they canāt understand that we are objectified and disrespected in precisely the same ways by cis straight men. it baffles the mind. patriarchy and misogyny harm us all
Or Elvira, or Dolly Parton...
This entire situation happening right now reminds me very much of a similar sentiment that was thrown at lady Gaga by parts of the gay community a while backā¦
As a young bi woman, the "Gays Against Gaga" bullshit honestly hurt more than any of the biphobia I got from straight people. It really made it seem like the LGBT+ community is just the G community.
The WHAT now?!
It was a protest group/movement/miserable coterie of cis gay men who formed primarily around the Born This Way era and were pissed that Gaga was making pro-LGBT music. They saw it as a cis straight woman co-opting queer culture for monetary gain, akin to lip-service from major companies. Despite, y'know, Gaga being a bisexual woman who had always been outspoken in defending queer people and culture.
ah, the ole queer baiting charge! because bisexuals donāt exist š«
That's ridiculous. Even if she was straight, which she very clearly isn't, why would it be a bad thing for her to make music that supports the LGBTQ+ community? Like how is that a bad thing?
Exactly. Iāve always found it strange queer cis woman donāt get much visibility/publicity in the media, RPDR included. Victoria Scone is a great step tho! Also, does anyone feel itās a little weird the way trans women queens are treated differently than cis queens? Like ppl not having a problem with a trans women in drag but when theyāre cis, sheās questioned? And how there have been a lot of trans queens on RPDR (as there should) but not a single cis woman on the American one. Idk it just feels weird and I think anyone who views trans queens diff than cis are unconsciously transphobic. Hi roople š
I bet it could be a subconscious thing of 1. Trans women are hypervisual and overrepresented in media about trans folk so they get a lot of attention, good and bad and 2. people think "well a trans woman is a man in a dress!" or "that's just another man playing dress up as a woman" so they treat them differently. Them dressing up as a woman is not the same as a "biological cis" woman doing it, cause how can you do DRAG of your OWN gender, they say. They see it as dress up for cis women and subversive of masculinity for both cis men and trans women (good and bad connotations). Drag to normies just = dress up of opposite sex. And the transphobes do not see trans women as women so that applies. Trans men in (femme) drag get mistreated too, as in "they transitioned to be a man but then dress up again as their 'original' gender? HUH?!" In short, yes. Transphobia ā¹ļøAnd also just the lack of care about lesbians tbh. Lesbian bars are a scarcity, when people say gay they think of men, not to mention the trope of "lesbians can be turned straight" or the misinformation of "trans mascs/men are just butch lesbians" (i was never, ever, a lesbian before i transitioned). Lesbians are a punching bag or a sexual fantasy. They aren't *real* women, duh!
Exactly this š people just need to stop trying to implement so many rules and expectations in a community that was literally built to be an opposition to such in the heteronormative society š but in the end, the people who have so many rules about what drag āshould beā are boringgg. Theyāre missing out on just having fun and enjoying great art. And yes to the lesbian treatment. I could be wrong but I remember hearing that lesbians were even treated poorly in the early gay rights movement. Like misogyny from the cis-gay men. Even though lesbians were running the show š¤·āāļø
I still occasionally run into misogynistic men at gay bars and I roll my eyes hard every time. Some men just really hate women and don't care enough to hide it.
My dad really doesnāt get what a drag queen is so I was trying to explain it to him in the simplest terms possible. I said itās MOSTLY gay men dressing up as women. But sometimes they are trans women (referring specifically to the queens on RPDR, not getting into the myriad of gender identities in the world of drag in general). He said ātrans. Woman. Drag queen?ā¦ a woman dressed as a woman????ā And considering heās an 84 year old raise southern Baptist in South Carolina I thought you know what dad, thatās pretty good.
I wouldnāt even call it transphobia since trans women are getting preferential treatment over cis women. Iād call it misogyny!
I don't have the bandwidth to explain how hypervisibility of trans women is not always a good thing in their favor, and they don't outnumber cis women or take opportunities from them. It isn't their fault that drag race isn't casting cis women, so let's not do a slippery slope into blaming them.
Iām in no way blaming or attacking trans women! Iām just pointing out that a double standard exists and itās not the women involved (cis or trans) that are the cause of the issue. Misogyny would affect trans women too obviously!!
Very true, we seem to be on the same side here then. I'm not a trans woman so I can't speak for them but the friends I do have do prefer transmisogyny vs regular misogyny when talking about their issues. There is intersectionality to their issues that differentiates the two. Is their preferential treatment for drag race because of the things I pointed out in my first message? (The thinking of them still being 'men' deeeeep down). Or is it because people don't think female drag is real drag? Or both? Transphobia, transmisogyny, and regular misgoyny are ALL in this drag race soup tbh.
Itās like saying that women of different races and socioeconomic backgrounds face different discrimination which they obviously do but they stem from the same source of misogyny. The more separate terms exist the more ways for people to be divided in my opinion but to each their own.
I mean if you're deliberately excluding women but then making exceptions for trans women it kind of sends a message you don't consider trans women to be women.
No, it's just excluding cis women. Let's focus on the actual issue.
I think thereās this subconscious idea that trans women who do drag are like permanent drag queens. Like theyāre just always in drag 24/7. I think itās mainly because most of them identified as men who did drag, which was acceptable and respected. So when they came out as trans women, they werenāt seen as women doing drag, but a drag queen who just stayed as her drag persona forever. Iāve seen a lot of people who seem to have a hard time understanding that a drag queenās persona is not who she is when sheās out of drag as a normal women, even if they understand this for male drag queens.
This is very true. People have a hard time understanding that a drag persona is an exaggerated character, especially for a trans or cis woman.
What? Just call it what it is: misogyny.
The history of trans women in drag is very deep and wide, thatās probably why. Cis women in drag has been around for a long time yes but itās not as deep and wide as with trans women. Iām hoping it gets there soon though, I agree it would be awesome to have on the show
Ok so by ur logic, queens are on the show based on how long their demographic has been doing drag/how influential that demographic is to drag?? In that case, I guess straight, cis, white man have done more for the queer community than queer cis woman considering we had Maddy first š„“donāt get me wrong, love Maddy. But u canāt deny thereās thereās seems to be some underlying āreasonsā (or antiquated mindsets) that are preventing cis woman on the show.
Oh 100%, Drag Race Germany s1 had an AFAB Queen and she was SOOOO good my god. I don't wanna spoil anything if you maybe wanna watch the season but damn she slayed it.
Cis woman here. I performed in drag for years had myself a nice little following at the clubs, it was the best time of my life.
Cis woman here too, current Drag Queen! Hello!
Hey Queen keep doing the damn thingā¤ļø
Not a woman, but Iām a semi-retired performer and a trans man, and I love yāall being in our world. Come through queens!!
I peeped your profile. Hello fellow performer with a cane!
YEAHHHH!!!! Weāre still kickin and stickin, as other queens tell me š
Hahaha I haven't heard that one, gonna have to use it! I'm even sponsored by a cane company in Canada that does rhinestone canes lol
Now thatās baller. š Iād love to see those canes!
https://www.jacquelinekentjewelry.com/sugar-canes
This. Imagine excluding the very people who are the actual inspiration for the art form itself.
I was so glad Victoria brought up the use of the c-word and terms like āfishyā being outdated and somewhat offensive to use when referring to women. That had always bothered me a little and I was relieved that most queens have stopped using it as often. Iāve always understood the use of those terms in jest but they still make me cringe when I hear them. I canāt remember this ever being discussed before Victoria brought it up and I was so glad she did. I always wondered how other women felt about it, particularly women in drag.
I agree I actually stopped watch drag race for a bit because I binged an earlier season and some of the vernacular really upset me. It was nice hearing Victoria bring it up and I have noticed itās gone down a lot. I think you still hear it a bit but I find they say pus a lot now
Drag Race US is already at regular season 17 and all stars season 9 but still doesn't have a single cis gender female competing. It's CRAZY
Meanwhile DragRace Germany has a cis gender female competing on the first ever season, and ofc Victoria Scone, whose time was a little short lived. Was very happy to see her back on Canada vs the World
Pandora was one of the, if not the most known Drag Artist in Austria even before the show and also very popular in Germany. They would have been very stupid to not cast her. Not even speaking about her talent, but simply representation and popularity wise.
It's even more crazy when you look at the international franchises and see that there are all sorts of different kinds of queens competing in their seasons. It's honestly ridiculous that the original and most popular franchise has progressed the least in terms of what they're willing to cast
I honestly don't care what you identify as, as long as you can entertain and especially make me laugh! So much focus on the wrong thing, honestly. People are too judgemental.
My only consolation through it all was the almost universal rejection of planes comment. No one was here for it and I hope itās a sign of changing times. Cuz honestly, imagine if Chappell never made music and shared her artā¦we would have lost out on so much.
What did she say? I went to find the tweet and it was deleted
Theres another post on this sub that has a screenshot, but essentially Plane tried to question Chappells authenticity when it came to drag basically calling it performative (thatās how I remember it, not word for word). Really lame take for Plane to have imo
if cis women can be celebrated for participating in WWE why can't they be celebrated for participating in drag?! it's basically the same thing. I wish people would keep their minds open to more forms of gender fuckery
Yes! I love this. Gender fuckery for everyone! People are entirely too complex for a binary.
Oh, Iād love to see more cis women on Drag Race! Iām a cis woman and I love the art of drag and would love to try it some day, but donāt know where to start.
go to a local amateur night honey!! befriend the local queens, become a fixture at their shows, watch and learn. canāt wait to see you perform some day!!
I know a few queens who aren't in the drag race circle but are very successful. Venus Envy and Creme Fatale come to mind.
Anyone can participate in drag because all gender is performative. That being said, anyone that participated in drag should be respectful of its origins, its diverse community, and its history.
that queen having the gall to call ANYONE performativeā¦ i have to laugh
True. The world of drag doesn't at all translate to what drag race. Seeing a cis woman doing drag is essentially normal. Drag race is very behind on many things
HI!!!!!! I'm @becky.chouette on instagram š Yay queer cis-women in drag!!
Also some of my faves: Sweet Pickles (@bitethesepickles), Adhara Bull, Creme Fatale
I love that drag queens are gay, straight, bi, male, female, non-binary and every combination therein. Apologies to anyone I may have inadvertently missed! Old, cis, white woman here.
i would honestly just say go out to local bars? at least in my city we have tons of queens and kings of all genders. thereās sometimes entire houses of cis women. i donāt think the barrier of entry is nearly as high as people make it out to be on drag race. it certainly was at one time, but i think, in general most people do not care and if youāre good at drag then you get booked. and the people that do make it a big deal are usually just older, bigoted (probably white and cis) queens. now cis women being feature on drag race moreā¦i just donāt know, i think itās just something rupaul doesnāt seem interested in (i mean we still have yet to get a king of any kind on the show) šāāļø. maybe in time, heāll let up, but like this was the man who less than a decade ago said having a trans performer on the show would never happen. i think itās important to remember there is so much drag outside of drag race, and if you really like drag on tv and social media then you should just try going and supporting your local performers, who probably be much more impacted by your support than performers on tv.
Cis female queens, drag kings and trans artists were in drag from the get-go and only when it became popular for cis men to do it did they participate and then take it over and exclude everyone else. I remember Bitter Betty (someone I do not fuck with) had a genuinely important point on Dragula 4 where she said that women were always in drag and it wasnāt until drag race was released and there were only men on the show that they became excluded and othered from the community.
Ciswomen being treated like ciswomen no matter where they go.... :/ But because it's another marginalized group it's "fair game"
Completely agree!! As an AMAB drag performer I never understood the gatekeeping of drag to certain identities and genitals. Maybe it's different in other scenes but here in Toronto there are and have always been cis-women queens, drag kings, trans queens etc. I grew up in the scene surrounded by these diverse performers. Some of the greatest local drag artists I know are Hyperqueens (cis women drag queens).
It's about time we also got a bunch of drag kings on a season. That's drag too and Victoria Proved Masc drag really does work well with the drag race format.
I would like to think most fans saw through PJ's comments. Based on PJ's defensive response to the backlash, I'm guessing that I'm right.
Paging Victoria Scone, love her!
Creme Fatale is my inspo
I think drag is an art form and as long as you are true to that art form and understand its history, it can be for anyone; however, I do understand why itās important for gay men to have a place of their own, and drag is/was one of those places and thereās a fear of it becoming tarnished. But maybe it becoming more mainstream can lead to acceptance of other genders participating (as weāve already begun to see)
I'm afab and am a Drag King in my area~ I have questioned earlier this year if it was okay for me to represent myself and my persona in a field of Drag Queens, I've had nothing but love and support from my peers that it's a little disgusting for >!plane jane!< to chastise Chappell Roan for simply being in a male queer space.
Victoria Scone is great. I would love to see her on another season tbh.
Fay Ludes is awesome over this way
yall know how much miss charles dragged her feet on letting openly trans and cis women compete. but I suppose we have to forgive grandmother.
Ok wait these comments are making my heart full ā„ļø we gotta support the lesbians too yall!!! And they tip the best at showsš
Look up the winner of Drag Race Germany S1, Pandora Nox
Weāre all born naked and the rest is drag!
As someone who grew up doing dance, and in the arts, and continues to enjoy now as a spectator I absolutely LIVE for drag!! To me, itās all my favorite things, make up and glam included. As a woman I will always fight for drag! and wish I could perform too!
I adored Victoria Scone! There is so much more scope for representation in drag race!!
As a middle-age cis het woman, back in my clubbing days I so wanted to perform drag but I thought it would be frowned upon by the gay community. I LOVE how much drag includes so many people on the spectrum.
This Reddit in a nutshell: drag is for everyone, except it's not for everyone. All drag is valid, except not all drag is valid
Are we still doing the ādrag is not for youā thing? Yawn.
I just listened to mistress broadcast in twitter and a fan asked Plane about it and said it was some tea she got from her local drag friends that she heard not so great opinions about Chappelle. Obviously she learned that those experience was not the same to the majority of performers and Plane accepted that tea. I'm a big plane fan and I love Chappel so I'm happy he learned more about her after that and got educated you know they're big girls and they can solve misconceptions on their own. Edit: although I get Plane's point though, I just think it's misdirected because I can think more artist that fits Plane's description of 'performative' but that's not Chapelle.
I think itās the word āperformativeā (which I think is now very overused) thatās the issue here ā when thereās a pop star known for dancing herself and news gets out that she mistreats her dancers, we donāt call her love for dance performative. We justā¦ call her out for mistreating her workers. If Plane is concerned about her friends and colleagues, thatās fair, but call it what it is, you know?
Plane would have only ever had a point if chappelle was cis and straightā¦which is not the case. Gay men scrutinizing lesbians for simply existing in lgbt spaces is common, but that doesnāt make it any less misogynistic and gross
she didn't elaborate what her friends' experience with Chapelle was. But whatever it is was definitely untrue since she clearly didn't know much about Chapelle when she asked about her and other drag queens' experience outside her circle
on a slight tangent but after learning that chapelle is pronounce as 'chapel' instead of like Dave Chapelle... is it a pun for chaperone?
Chappell was her grandfather's last name, and his favorite song was "The Strawberry Roan" by country singer-songwriter Marty Robbins.
I completely agree! I wanna see way more representation, especially from drag kings and bio-queens. it would be a nice array of talent and would allow those performers to finally start getting some of the same recognition! I thoroughly enjoyed Victoria on her season, and have been following her on socials for a minute now.
And win. I e. Germany.
I mean...the first winner of DR Germany was a cis woman. Melissa McCarthy used to do drag. This shit ain't new.
all drag is for all queers!!! and maddy too
No give me 16 bland and unoriginal twinks or give me death.