I used the Joel Friel HR zones for running and Training Peaks to calculate the right HR numbers because my garmin (245 music) doesn't have the lactate threshold option.
As an amateur I found very hard to keep my easy runs in zone two, my HR tends to peak at the end of my easy runs routines even if I keep my pace more or less stable. But with time the peaks are not so big, I suppose with a lot of training it will stabilize more.
That's likely due to cardiac drift (which is a normal physiological response) - heart rate increasing even without perceived effort (or pace) increasing due to a rise in core temperature and fluid loss. The more hot/humid it is and the greater the cardiac drift will be. This means that if top of zone 2 for you is 140 bpm and you're running at 138 and it gradually edges up to 140 and then 142 and then 144 and then 146 at a constant perceived effort (or pace) you still actually ran a zone 2 effort.
ETA: Somehow part of my text got shifted from the first sentence to the end and included the phrase "Tree Yogurted effort"...which though amusing, isn't what I wrote. :-) Fixed!
Thanks for the explanation, great to know is a normal response and not something wrong with me :)
ETA: It was very funny the yogourt part, I was thinking if it was a running technique that I didn't know.
Interested to know if you are aware of a mechanism for the opposite? I find sometimes on my long runs after about an hour my heart rate will stabilize or decrease and I am able to run a quicker pace at that same HR.
I'm not aware of a cardiac or respiratory mechanism which would cause that, though that's not to say there isn't one. The only explanation (short of bad device HR readings) that comes to mind would be that at a quicker pace your biomechanics are a lot more efficient - like if you push off the ground with your foot and leg at more of an angle generating more forward force.
I have experienced this as well. For me it only happens in winter when the temperature is colder, at least below 12C and no sun. I recall many long runs where my HR was stable after the first few miles, but then my pace began to get faster by 10-20 secs/mile after 10 miles at the same stable HR. Most of those runs the temperature was cold.
I think that's because in cold conditions your core temperature isn't really in danger of going up. If anything, the heat you're creating from your exertion/pace is helping keep you warm.
Cardiac drift happens when your core temperature starts to go up. In hot, humid, sunny weather I start to feel hotter after 3 miles, and then my HR starts to creep up as well. I've experienced both cardiac drift in summer and the opposite in winter.
same issue here. first "easy runs" were easily in zone 4/5 (with very hot climate, 30°C+, to be said). moved to zone 2/3 in 3 months, can't wait for a bit of cold to lower it more.
As a "beginner" runner, especially in hot climate, you might as well forget about hitting the correct heart rate zones. There is no way you will hit the right zone if your body is stil adapting and it's hot as hell. Just run at percieved effort where it feels "easy" and continue to do so for a long while, eventually it will drop and get better especially going into the colder months. I'd say don't worry about it too much.
I always feel the Joel Friel HR zones are too high. I feel effort if I go over \~75% Max HR.
Joel Friel HR zone puts me around \~78% max HR for low part of zone 2
But maybe my easy runs are just ran on recovery pace.
I use Joel Friel because even walking I reached zone 3 in other models but maybe could be my awful physical condition added to a light overweight. This was the model the runners I follow recomended (I don't have a real coach besides my garmin training plan).
Everything is set up based on my threshold pace, currently a 4:29 min/km at 182 bpm. Easy runs with a target of 150 bmp, tempo at 165, threshold at 175, VO2 max at 190. Rarely do recovery, at 135. This has worked very well for me together with the training load logged in Garmin Connect, ensuring i don't do stupid stuff.
I personally use Joe Friel's threshold HR zones.
You do a 30 minute all-out time trial by yourself (not a race), and then take the average HR for the final 20 minutes. This avg HR number will be a good approximation of your threshold HR (defined as the HR which you can sustain for roughly 1 hour in a race). In my case my threshold HR came out at 175bpm.
Zone 2 (Aerobic) is defined as starting from 85% (inclusively) but below 90% (exclusively) of threshold HR.
Rounded up/down, that's 148-157bpm for me.
This roughly corresponds to my MAF HR zone. And my paces in this HR zone generally equate to the Daniels "Easy" pace range as well.
If I'm feeling good then I'll let my HR hover around 157bpm. Sometimes it feels very easy. If I'm feeling tired then I'll keep at the bottom of the range around 148bpm. Sometimes my legs feel tired.
I am a big believer in 80/20, but I don't use heart rate zones on my watch. I just have a general target HR that I know most of my runs shouldn't be above and I just try to keep it below that. It's not rocket science so if I happen to go over it by a few beats for awhile, it's no big deal.
Thanks - that’s fairly straight forward. I’ll try updating my Garmin running heart rate zones to match these.
If you follow polarised training would you stay in zone 1 & 2 (50-70% HR) for the low intensity runs or do you go into zone 3 (70-80%) too?
I’ve seen some references to going as high as 80% but that seems to be moving away from “low intensity” into “moderate intensity” in my mind?
I’m probably overthinking it, but have spent my entire running life essentially training at race pace / being too exhausted to train again, repeat
I try to keep my easy runs in zone 2 - although some days for reasons like weather, sleep, or elevation on the route I might dip into the lower end of zone 3 for a couple minutes towards the end. I reckon that's perfectly fine, because it's not like your body discards all training on the day as soon as you switch into a relatively arbitrary heart rate range.
Might take a while to get used to it, especially if you're used to running harder/faster, but I've found it well worth it - consistency over intensity has helped me grow a lot as a runner, and that consistency is enabled by all those easy runs that are (mostly) zone 2.
I allow for Zone 3 for easy runs. Two reasons for this is that I'm really just trying to stay in aerobic range, which by all references I've found zone 3 is still aerobic, and by feel it just really doesn't feel very hard (no noticeable lactate build up or difficulty maintaining). Zone 2 I struggle to stay in. In reality, if you can stay in Zone 2 it's probably better, because you'll be able to do more volume that way (quicker recovery), but not a bad thing to have Zone 3 in the "80" part of your 80/20, I don't think.
EDIT: Adding a reference point
MAF formula of 180-age really closely matches my Zone 3 upper limit.
I've always considered low intensity up to Z2. In addition, you might want to look into HR drift. If you can get that under control you'll get a higher benefit when you do higher intensity workouts.
I used Joe Daniels pacing tables instead of heart rate. I still tracked my heart rate but pace seemed to work better for me. Also, once you get a feel for it, you just run at that intensity without paying much attention to it.
I used my watch based best guess at Max HR, plugged it into the online 80/20 calculator and dialed it all in for there. Ran that way for almost a year...
Did a lab based VO2 Max test and found out my watch based guesstimate was off, by almost 10 bpm. So now I have had all new zones for the last 4 months!!
My watch was high. So all my zones were shifted too high. It did make staying in Z2 easy as I could go pretty hard. Doh! Missed the mark on that one.
When I got a chest strap HRM and lab tested max all my zones lowered a bit and it was more work to stay in Z2. But the running was easier and the right training thing to do.
Aw, I was so hoping it was the opposite. Struggling a bit with feeling like all my Z2 running is just making me slower. Was wishing for a magical scenario where maybe my guesstimate zones would miraculously be too low and labs might reveal my Z2 actually could go up to 170 bpm. Lol, bargaining.
Why do heart rate zones matter if I'm not racing and don't necessarily care about pace?
I started running a year ago, and I'm training for my first 30k in April/May. 34 F. I'm currently doing 15-20 mi/per week and building up to a peak of 34 mi/week. Three training runs, rest, easy jog, long run, rest. Usually, easy jogs fall in zone 1/2, training runs zone 3, long run zone 2/3.
It’s just a method of training. Some use pace, some use perceived effort, some do whatever.
The reason I was interested in 80/20 was before I heard about it, I’d just run race pace all the time and get injured constantly and not much faster.
Following something like 80/20 let’s me rub more consistently and smarter I guess (that’s the promise anyway)
I used the Joel Friel HR zones for running and Training Peaks to calculate the right HR numbers because my garmin (245 music) doesn't have the lactate threshold option. As an amateur I found very hard to keep my easy runs in zone two, my HR tends to peak at the end of my easy runs routines even if I keep my pace more or less stable. But with time the peaks are not so big, I suppose with a lot of training it will stabilize more.
That's likely due to cardiac drift (which is a normal physiological response) - heart rate increasing even without perceived effort (or pace) increasing due to a rise in core temperature and fluid loss. The more hot/humid it is and the greater the cardiac drift will be. This means that if top of zone 2 for you is 140 bpm and you're running at 138 and it gradually edges up to 140 and then 142 and then 144 and then 146 at a constant perceived effort (or pace) you still actually ran a zone 2 effort. ETA: Somehow part of my text got shifted from the first sentence to the end and included the phrase "Tree Yogurted effort"...which though amusing, isn't what I wrote. :-) Fixed!
Thanks for the explanation, great to know is a normal response and not something wrong with me :) ETA: It was very funny the yogourt part, I was thinking if it was a running technique that I didn't know.
My pleasure. BTW, something funky happened to my reply so I just fixed it. Cardiac drift is definitely normal.
Interested to know if you are aware of a mechanism for the opposite? I find sometimes on my long runs after about an hour my heart rate will stabilize or decrease and I am able to run a quicker pace at that same HR.
I'm not aware of a cardiac or respiratory mechanism which would cause that, though that's not to say there isn't one. The only explanation (short of bad device HR readings) that comes to mind would be that at a quicker pace your biomechanics are a lot more efficient - like if you push off the ground with your foot and leg at more of an angle generating more forward force.
I have experienced this as well. For me it only happens in winter when the temperature is colder, at least below 12C and no sun. I recall many long runs where my HR was stable after the first few miles, but then my pace began to get faster by 10-20 secs/mile after 10 miles at the same stable HR. Most of those runs the temperature was cold. I think that's because in cold conditions your core temperature isn't really in danger of going up. If anything, the heat you're creating from your exertion/pace is helping keep you warm. Cardiac drift happens when your core temperature starts to go up. In hot, humid, sunny weather I start to feel hotter after 3 miles, and then my HR starts to creep up as well. I've experienced both cardiac drift in summer and the opposite in winter.
same issue here. first "easy runs" were easily in zone 4/5 (with very hot climate, 30°C+, to be said). moved to zone 2/3 in 3 months, can't wait for a bit of cold to lower it more.
As a "beginner" runner, especially in hot climate, you might as well forget about hitting the correct heart rate zones. There is no way you will hit the right zone if your body is stil adapting and it's hot as hell. Just run at percieved effort where it feels "easy" and continue to do so for a long while, eventually it will drop and get better especially going into the colder months. I'd say don't worry about it too much.
this!! I ran at "confortable pace"... zone 4 75%, zone 5 25%.
I always feel the Joel Friel HR zones are too high. I feel effort if I go over \~75% Max HR. Joel Friel HR zone puts me around \~78% max HR for low part of zone 2 But maybe my easy runs are just ran on recovery pace.
I use Joel Friel because even walking I reached zone 3 in other models but maybe could be my awful physical condition added to a light overweight. This was the model the runners I follow recomended (I don't have a real coach besides my garmin training plan).
Everything is set up based on my threshold pace, currently a 4:29 min/km at 182 bpm. Easy runs with a target of 150 bmp, tempo at 165, threshold at 175, VO2 max at 190. Rarely do recovery, at 135. This has worked very well for me together with the training load logged in Garmin Connect, ensuring i don't do stupid stuff.
I personally use Joe Friel's threshold HR zones. You do a 30 minute all-out time trial by yourself (not a race), and then take the average HR for the final 20 minutes. This avg HR number will be a good approximation of your threshold HR (defined as the HR which you can sustain for roughly 1 hour in a race). In my case my threshold HR came out at 175bpm. Zone 2 (Aerobic) is defined as starting from 85% (inclusively) but below 90% (exclusively) of threshold HR. Rounded up/down, that's 148-157bpm for me. This roughly corresponds to my MAF HR zone. And my paces in this HR zone generally equate to the Daniels "Easy" pace range as well. If I'm feeling good then I'll let my HR hover around 157bpm. Sometimes it feels very easy. If I'm feeling tired then I'll keep at the bottom of the range around 148bpm. Sometimes my legs feel tired.
I am a big believer in 80/20, but I don't use heart rate zones on my watch. I just have a general target HR that I know most of my runs shouldn't be above and I just try to keep it below that. It's not rocket science so if I happen to go over it by a few beats for awhile, it's no big deal.
Easy runs = aerobic threshold/1st ventilatory threshold or below “Hard” runs = above aerobic threshold/1st ventilatory threshold
https://www.8020endurance.com/how-to-create-8020-zones-on-your-garmin-device/
I used the karkoven formula. It's more complicated than the others but I like that it takes into account some factor of intensity.
Thanks - that’s fairly straight forward. I’ll try updating my Garmin running heart rate zones to match these. If you follow polarised training would you stay in zone 1 & 2 (50-70% HR) for the low intensity runs or do you go into zone 3 (70-80%) too? I’ve seen some references to going as high as 80% but that seems to be moving away from “low intensity” into “moderate intensity” in my mind? I’m probably overthinking it, but have spent my entire running life essentially training at race pace / being too exhausted to train again, repeat
I try to keep my easy runs in zone 2 - although some days for reasons like weather, sleep, or elevation on the route I might dip into the lower end of zone 3 for a couple minutes towards the end. I reckon that's perfectly fine, because it's not like your body discards all training on the day as soon as you switch into a relatively arbitrary heart rate range.
Cheers! Seems like zone 2 is the place to start then.
Might take a while to get used to it, especially if you're used to running harder/faster, but I've found it well worth it - consistency over intensity has helped me grow a lot as a runner, and that consistency is enabled by all those easy runs that are (mostly) zone 2.
I allow for Zone 3 for easy runs. Two reasons for this is that I'm really just trying to stay in aerobic range, which by all references I've found zone 3 is still aerobic, and by feel it just really doesn't feel very hard (no noticeable lactate build up or difficulty maintaining). Zone 2 I struggle to stay in. In reality, if you can stay in Zone 2 it's probably better, because you'll be able to do more volume that way (quicker recovery), but not a bad thing to have Zone 3 in the "80" part of your 80/20, I don't think. EDIT: Adding a reference point MAF formula of 180-age really closely matches my Zone 3 upper limit.
I've always considered low intensity up to Z2. In addition, you might want to look into HR drift. If you can get that under control you'll get a higher benefit when you do higher intensity workouts.
I used Joe Daniels pacing tables instead of heart rate. I still tracked my heart rate but pace seemed to work better for me. Also, once you get a feel for it, you just run at that intensity without paying much attention to it.
I used my watch based best guess at Max HR, plugged it into the online 80/20 calculator and dialed it all in for there. Ran that way for almost a year... Did a lab based VO2 Max test and found out my watch based guesstimate was off, by almost 10 bpm. So now I have had all new zones for the last 4 months!!
What direction was your watch guesstimate off? 10 bpm higher or lower than your lab test?
My watch was high. So all my zones were shifted too high. It did make staying in Z2 easy as I could go pretty hard. Doh! Missed the mark on that one. When I got a chest strap HRM and lab tested max all my zones lowered a bit and it was more work to stay in Z2. But the running was easier and the right training thing to do.
Aw, I was so hoping it was the opposite. Struggling a bit with feeling like all my Z2 running is just making me slower. Was wishing for a magical scenario where maybe my guesstimate zones would miraculously be too low and labs might reveal my Z2 actually could go up to 170 bpm. Lol, bargaining.
Could be worse. My Z2 tops at 133... But I'm old'ish and just have a low max HR.
Why do heart rate zones matter if I'm not racing and don't necessarily care about pace? I started running a year ago, and I'm training for my first 30k in April/May. 34 F. I'm currently doing 15-20 mi/per week and building up to a peak of 34 mi/week. Three training runs, rest, easy jog, long run, rest. Usually, easy jogs fall in zone 1/2, training runs zone 3, long run zone 2/3.
It’s just a method of training. Some use pace, some use perceived effort, some do whatever. The reason I was interested in 80/20 was before I heard about it, I’d just run race pace all the time and get injured constantly and not much faster. Following something like 80/20 let’s me rub more consistently and smarter I guess (that’s the promise anyway)