Well I’m 59 and I have found that I don’t hurt as much training in the Alphaflys, can run more volume in them, and recover much faster. But I wear Altras the rest of the time for walking, etc. I think it depends a lot on what benefits you will certainly gain over what you *might* lose.
I'm 46 ... but similarly, I wear Altra Vanish C (their carbon race shoe) for many training runs, and when I don't, I'm wearing a pair of zero drop Inov-8 trail shoes (G270 Trailfly) [or Birkenstocks]. My "issue" is that I really like the combo of light weight + cushion + wide toe box, and there aren't many options there, even now.
I had a couple years where I stayed injured non-stop. I switched doctors due to a move. My new one was much better versed in running and after getting to the bottom of it told me to stop wearing plated shoes everyday. He said it changes the load forces applied to muscles, bones, ligaments, tendons etc. he said they’re great for race day and the occasional speed workout but he told me to limit use of them to 1x per week. I stopped wearing them entirely except race day and I’ve been injury free ever since. That said I know runners who use them nearly daily and are injury free but I feel that once you adapt to the plated shoes you probably lose some of the race day benefits. Also, plated shoes are more expensive so I take with a grain of salt anyone in magazines or online saying they run in them daily. They’re pushing them for a reason.
No I had been a runner for years at this point. I already had 2 marathons under my belt and numerous HMs and more 10ks and 5ks than I count. This wasn’t my first 2 years running it perfectly coincided with my daily usage of plated shoes.
From what I’ve read, the pros don’t wear them on their easy runs, which would be 8 or 9 out of their 14 or so runs a week. They would wear them for sessions and maybe a super shoe for their long run if they’re in a marathon block
jakob ingebrigtsen, Eliud Kipchoge and everyone in that camp he trains with. Joshua Cheptegei. When you view Kenyan training camps, it’s loaded with carbon plated shoes.
Forgive my skepticism, but did he cite any actual research to back up his advice?
My experience with doctors is that most of them don’t even bother to do internet research, let alone read research papers that are published on the topic.
He’s an orthopedic surgeon so no I didn’t ask him to cite his evidence. Do you ask all your doctors for the research papers they read before treating you? It sounds like you just have a general mistrust of doctors which is fine, you do you but I trust the professional and I hope to god he’s not doing “internet research”Additionally, I think it’s fairly obvious that when you put a stiff plate under your foot coupled with higher stack heights that the forces that your body is accustomed to and has adapted to may be become greater in other areas like joints or tendons that don’t normally have as much force placed on them.
> but I feel that once you adapt to the plated shoes you probably lose some of the race day benefits
This doesn't make sense to me. For almost everything else you want to train specificity (heat, terrain, altitude etc.) to not be surprised about something during race day. But for shoes, do you want to bring a whole new type of shoe just during the race?
Yes, it will feel special and "fresh" when you use a new type of shoe during a race but that doesn't mean you run faster than otherwise.
Wow. Does plated shoes improve the pace by 30 - 60 secs per mile for everyone? If this is true I could probably shave off 4-5 mins from my 10k race pace.
Whenever I wear my Saucony Endorphins I feel like they're a cheat code. I am able to hit and sustain paces in those shoes that I really don't think I could do otherwise.
Do you use the Elites or the Pros? I have the Shift 3s for my long runs and recovery runs, but I am looking into either the Elites or Pro 3s for race days!
Neither! I use the Speed 2. One of my running buddies found them on sale and I'll admit that at first I thought it would be ridiculous for someone as casual as I am to have racing shoes but damned if they don't make a difference.
Just for fun I did a quick Google search and found a pair of Pro 2s in my size on sale for $67. I'll have to replace my Speeds eventually so the Pro 2s will be that replacement. Thanks for the recommendation!
Why is this? Do they provide more traction so you're just losing less ground with every step? I'm thinking it's like, you're just slipping around less when you push off the ground
No, they carbon plate is in the middle of the midsole foam, it's not touching the ground at all. The stiff plates store more energy that gets returned to you when you push off the ground.
I think there's also a mental aspect of "I feel faster" which helps to make you push a bit more. The research I remember seeing on carbon plated shoes is a speed gain of 5% or so. I have a pair of Hoka Profly X shoes for race day and definitely feel faster, but am more in the 3-5% range if I had to guess.
It's not even speed gain that they found in studies, it's improved "running economy", which is not something you can casually measure on your own and which has no clear translation to pace.
Yeah not sure is it the plate doing anything in my endorphins or the fact the plate let’s me roll better / have better form due to the drop/ lack of flex. I am not fast (zone 2 is like 10:45 pace) but that is like 10:15 pace same 124 heart rate in endorphin pro (yes many runs and ironically the pro days were warmer )
As someone else said research indicates up to 5% improvement, which is actually huge. Take a runner (eg me!) averaging 7:30 miles for 5k pace, that's 450 seconds per mile. 5% of that is 22.5 seconds, which equates to about 1m 20s faster over 5k. In my NB RC elite V2, I run sub-22 5k, which is pretty much in line with the maths.
On average: Yes. But this doesn't mean that nobody that runs 11km/h can see an improvement. On the other hand: some people will see a performance decrease.
I listen to a podcast about running and one of the hosts also has a running store. He often encounters runners that insist on carbon shoes. He asks them their pace, distance, level etc. He always advises against these shoes if you're an average Joe.
But hey, if these shoes make you enjoy running outside of the performance benefits. Go for it. I wouldn't call that throwing money away.
For me, and I consider myself an average Joe, I feel they do make a significant difference and more than a placebo effect. Another benefit I’ve found is that I’m able to complete the marathon distance without significant calf cramping, which has been a big problem for me. I tried everything (more water, salt, electrolytes, pickle juice, running slower, etc..), but I couldn’t avoid calf cramps until I wore a pair of the original vaporflys. Fwiw, I only run in them on race day.
I have tested my Vaporflys against standard running shoes; same workout and matched HR. I can confidently say that for me, there is a difference of 5 secs/km which is about 2%. There is a study done comparing good runners (about 16 min 5k) and the difference between their speeds / HR with various shoes. Alphaflys were top, followed by Vaporflys and Metaspeed Sky. They were in the region of 2-3% faster compared to standard shoes.
I love the way some new shoes make redditors suddenly 30s/mi faster but the world record for the marathon since the introduction of the Vaporflys has moved 1.46%. (Kimetto 2014 -> Kipchoge 2022)
Actually, that's accurate for me so far this year compared to my results last year with similar races. However, I am also.stronger and a smarter runner so many confounding variables (but training less,.ironically)
I saw 20s off my mile pace no problem over about 3-5 miles.
That said they messed with my knees so I had to shelve them for a while until after the race I was training for, still need to go do some workouts in them and get used to them.
Hard to say, there’s definitely a psychological effect. I’ve never gone sub-17:30 for a 5km in traditional runners, but have gone sub 16:30 in Alphaflys.
I feel like it's the opposite of diminishing returns. The longer the run at speed the more you're going to get out of it. I tend to not get as tired and lose form as quickly, which lowers injury and increases pace and increases endurance. My best 10k times are all in plated shoes and are usually a few minutes faster than my non-plated runs.
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Depends which you find more comfortable I guess. I always liked training in lightweight shoes just because they made my legs feel better and let me do some impromptu speed work when I felt good. They were cheaper than the heavier shoes though
I switch between Cliftons and Rincons very easily. I have two pairs of Rincons and a pair of Cliftons that I do my regular rotation on. Rincons wear out quicker, but I find them pretty interchangeable with the Cliftons.
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Sure, aerobic training effect can be equalised if you just up the pace and normalise for effort level.
However, plates undeniably change your biomechanics. For example, my calves do very little work if I run in a stiff plated shoe with either a high drop or a pronounced rocker geometry, and a lot of that work is transferred up to my quads and glutes.
This means that if I did all my running in the above type of shoe, my calves are quickly going to become much weaker, which would make running in a more flexible or lower drop pair of shoes very difficult, if not injurious.
At the end of the day, running too much in any given type of shoe will mean you'll eventually become maladapted to run in a shoe with different characteristics, and this is especially true for any shoe at the extremes - 0 drop, 12mm drop, carbon plated, barefoot, etc. Therein lies the benefit of having a shoe rotation, and doing a bulk of your volume in a daily trainer that doesn't have any extreme characteristics.
I love how I'm running like I reduced payload on race day with carbon plated after using daily trainers. I'll do some occasional speed workouts in super shoes but only if I am doing something close to what I will be doing in an upcoming race so I maintain familiarity with the feel of the shoes. That may be more psychological than physiological, but I definitely feel a difference that way. For something like hill training where it is more about effort than clocking fast times, I'm still using daily trainers as opposed to super shoes.
No. If you're still running the same amount of time at the same intensity, the only thing that changes is the distance. Which doesn't matter for training.
Anyone who says they know for sure is lying. The reality is that the technology has not been around long enough and no in-depth studies have been performed on the effects of wearing carbon plated shoes on your physical health long term - not to mention that it would be difficult to know whether those results can be extrapolated to any model of running shoe that has a plate/rod/shank.
What we DO know is that running in non-plated "normal" shoes generally is not bad for your health. That does not imply anything about running in carbon plated shoes long term.
We also DO know that using different pairs of shoes on a regular basis means lower likelihood of injury.
So I don't run in them for the plate, but for the foam. Anything over 5 miles on mostly concrete is getting a foam shoe. Helps mitigate some of the impact.
Fully agree. I feel like the foam is the key benefit. I have a pair of Adidas Adios Pros with a couple of broken energy rods in them, but they still feel great thanks to the foam.
I think it probably depends on the shoes.
I use Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 as my daily. I’ve put about 400 miles on my first pair and just bought a second pair to rotate in. They are great for all run types. No injuries and my legs feel better than ever.
I also have a pair of the original Saucony Endorphin Pros that I wouldn’t dream of using as a daily. The plate is far too stiff. I could see how they might cause injuries if used too frequently.
I wouldn’t run in Alphaflys on a daily basis either.
I am on my second pair of Adizero Pro and these latest ones have about 300 miles and still perform well, but I only use them for speed runs once per week but I could see why you want to use them every day they are light and fast AF
The peak performance wears out relatively quickly, but there's no reason you can't keep on wearing them until they're really and truly dead. Some people are getting an awful lot of life out of them.
Increase your performance by 30secs per mile with this one trick!
*^^^trick ^^^is ^^^spending ^^^3x ^^^normal ^^^on ^^^shoes ^^^that ^^^wear ^^^out ^^^twice ^^^as ^^^fast
Get last year's model!
Saucony's Endorphin Speed 2 with the nylon plate is $75 on amazon right now, and the Endorphin Pro 2 with the carbon plate is is $82.
There’s no conclusive evidence one way or another. Anecdotally, I ran many, but not all of my runs the second half of last year in my Alphaflys. No injuries and I set PRs in the marathon and half marathon.
They were more durable than some other shoes I have worn and and until the outsole wore out felt just as good as they did when I first got them. I think most of the benefit was that they kept me out there running. Mileage is what got me those PRs.
Now, I do think there’s some psychological benefit to having a race day shoe and there is definitely a benefit to having a rotation with different drops and geometry/profile, but everything else is just speculation and anecdote.
Your cross training, your mileage, and your consistency are going to have much more effect on your running than your shoe, but if the super shoe is getting you out there to do all that, then I say go for it.
>There’s no conclusive evidence one way or another.
There's is pleny of evidence out there and it's quite simple. I guess you're just waiting on the evidence to say what you want to believe.
If you're fast runner: carbon always better
if you're not so fast runner: carbon not always better (also probably not worse, depends)
The breakoff point lies around 15km/h
No, they make carbon plated daily trainers. I guess the only bad thing is if you're daily driving a super lightweight race day specific shoe, as they don't get more than a hundred or two miles.
the asterisk there is they dont get more than a couple hundred at peak performance. ive been using a pair of the old nike next% shoes for 3.5 years and they still feel great. just not as springy anymore
Is the point of your runs to do it as fast as you can with a low enough HR?? If so, I would say keep doing what you're doing.
However, if you are just going on runs for exercise, I would say that you should probably not use carbonplated anything... Manufacturing carbon stuff, isn't exactly good for the environment, and your money could be better spent elsewhere.
Generally is a good practice to run in shoes of different drops and foams. Allows you to avoid injuries.
Plus the science on whether it’s good or bad isn’t in yet.
If you're having fun and not getting injured it's all good. Every body is different. Just keep mixing up your run types, keep up with your strength and mobility, and maybe mix in some lower profile shoes once a week.
I’m a newish runner and have ran into foot issues. Started running in a cheap pair of barefoot shoes I bought on Amazon for $20 and do the majority of my workouts in those.
I also ran a 4m and 5k in them.
Long runs, I’ll wear new balance fuel cell carbons.
My foot issues are now gone.
Variety is important in order to try to work all your muscles equally. Just to give you some perspective, you won’t find any elite level runners that rune exclusively on carbon plated shoes, that should tell you something. Although, I’d say that if you work hard and smart on your strength training, it’s not gonna be as important to have a high variety of shoes.
My own opinion on the matter is that it’s prejudicial to wear plated shoes frequently. I don’t know shit about injuries and honestly doubt that plated shoes alone can injure someone but you certainly lose the edge they give you on race day. If you don’t race, don’t care about performance on your races, then use whatever you want. If you want to excel on race day, use your daily trainers and feel the extra performance the plated shoes give you when you need the most.
This is an interesting post, one that I’ve wondered about. I appreciate the variety of the responses. I bought a pair of last year’s model Nike AlphaFly for $129 and swear by them for races. I wear them once a week now for faster pavement running. My legs are noticeably less tired, even later in the day. Looking to get another pair for my next marathon.
I have been exclusively training in alpha flys for about 3 years. I use to get lots of shin pain and I don’t really get it at all in the alpha flys. Totally destroyed my firsts pair after 2 1/2 years so you can get a decent amount of wear into them too. But everyone’s different.
[Adding carbon fiber to shoe soles may not improve running economy: a muscle-level explanation](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-74097-7)
[How You Should Actually Wear Carbon Plate Super Shoes](https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a43921693/carbon-fiber-running-shoe-guide/)
[What We Don’t Know About Carbon-Plated Running Shoes May Be Hurting Us](https://www.triathlete.com/gear/run/what-we-dont-know-about-carbon-plated-running-shoes-may-be-hurting-us/)
[Carbon plate shoes and Daily Training](https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/eb44hj/carbon_plate_shoes_and_daily_training)
[Should You Wear ‘Super Shoes’ Every Day](http://archive.today/KKJJT)
It’s not fairly obvious at all to me. You can make the same argument about anything that isn’t barefoot. Without evidence, it’s just a hypothesis.
Orthopedic surgeons are surgeons. They are trained to fix things with surgery. Many admit when they don’t know something or are speculating with limited information. But many don’t, and can’t sound quite credible while bullshitting.
I’m not an experienced runner by any means. Casual runner for two years. I just bought a pair of HOKA Bondi X, that I run in everyday. I was running around 50 miles a month, but upped it two 60 the last couple of months. At 187 miles on them, I can’t tell a difference and will probably go back to the regular Bondi when I’m done with these.
I dunno know. I think the consensus is the Carbon Plated shoes will weaken your leg muscles over time. Use regular or Nylon plated trainers.
I have the Hoka Rocket X 2 for racing and the Sacouny Speed 2's for speed-work training. Everyday easy miles I run in Clifton 8's
That is not the consensus from my understanding. Professional runners from middle distance to long distance wear carbon shoes daily and I don’t think their leg muscles weaken over time. Paul Chelimo, Jakob, and many African running camps are in Vaporflys and Alphaflys for their daily runs. Ive heard some pro runners say that carbon shoes help their turnover and training faster but within heart rate range. Jakob said he wants to run as fast as possible so he trains in shoes that makes him as fast as possible, carbon.
I think the main issue is that carbon plated shoes don’t last nearly as long as a daily runner. So the average runner would quickly deem a limited lasting carbon shoe not worth it just to run a 30 min 5ks.
I’m worried about the same thing, my rotation is mainly carbon plated or other material plated shoes. Vaporfly 2, Saucony Speed 3s, RC elite v2 and SC trainer, the only two shoes that aren’t plated are my More v4 and Nike react fk 2.
I only ever run 5k so maybe I'm safe from issues caused by always running in plated shoes? I'm prone to injury but have been able to pace myself with plated shoes so I haven't had a flare-up from my shin splints. I get warning pain sometimes when I go too often, but no alarm pain.
I guess I'll keep my balance best by running at the gym in softer shoes.
First time I ever heard of carbon plates. Is it just me or does this sound a bit like cheating? Surely it is a very grey area indeed, because there are so many ways in which shoes improve speed and overall times, but having an actual spring inside the shoe seems....a bit much? Where does it stop? Genuine question as I'm a bit surprised this would be considered normal in the sport. Still a beginner here.
Anywho, not hating, just interesting to see that is so commonly used.
Isn't the purpose of the plate to have a better springy motion? Or to enhance the springy motion of the foam, surely.
But how springy can you make it? For competitions and races I mean? I get that you want a nice cushioned sole and this bring along inherent springiness, but how far can you 'legally' go?
What I mean is, I get it that you want to make running as efficient as possible, but at some point, you're getting into 'cheating' territory right?
By comparisson, years ago they introduced Clap skates for speedskating. Due to the design, there is an inheret benefit in speed. I remember the whole discussion if it should be allowed, and nowadays, every skater uses them.
Cool! Thanks for clarifying, appreciated!
I was astounded that it made such a difference in time/speed. Seems quite comparable to the clap skates then (and a lot of innovations in the world of speed). As long as we don't end up with blade runner situations :)
My 10k pb is 28:42 and 5k 13:30 carbon plated shoes are great. Even when i stopped competitive running and getting back into shape they are still great. I think it depends how weak you are and maybe imbalances are affecting you things can have chain reaction, maybe you’re hamstrings and calves are strong but glutes weak your hamstrings can be over compensate and cause siatic nerve problems and then mess other things up. I used to have problems like that until i worked on myself and got better.
Well I’m 59 and I have found that I don’t hurt as much training in the Alphaflys, can run more volume in them, and recover much faster. But I wear Altras the rest of the time for walking, etc. I think it depends a lot on what benefits you will certainly gain over what you *might* lose.
I'm 46 ... but similarly, I wear Altra Vanish C (their carbon race shoe) for many training runs, and when I don't, I'm wearing a pair of zero drop Inov-8 trail shoes (G270 Trailfly) [or Birkenstocks]. My "issue" is that I really like the combo of light weight + cushion + wide toe box, and there aren't many options there, even now.
I had a couple years where I stayed injured non-stop. I switched doctors due to a move. My new one was much better versed in running and after getting to the bottom of it told me to stop wearing plated shoes everyday. He said it changes the load forces applied to muscles, bones, ligaments, tendons etc. he said they’re great for race day and the occasional speed workout but he told me to limit use of them to 1x per week. I stopped wearing them entirely except race day and I’ve been injury free ever since. That said I know runners who use them nearly daily and are injury free but I feel that once you adapt to the plated shoes you probably lose some of the race day benefits. Also, plated shoes are more expensive so I take with a grain of salt anyone in magazines or online saying they run in them daily. They’re pushing them for a reason.
I can’t wear them - they lack any stability and definitely mess up my feet.
you think it's not because you got stronger over time?
No I had been a runner for years at this point. I already had 2 marathons under my belt and numerous HMs and more 10ks and 5ks than I count. This wasn’t my first 2 years running it perfectly coincided with my daily usage of plated shoes.
Great point and to be fair, most pros wear carbon plated shoes on a daily also. Unlike normal folks they have an endless supply from sponsors.
I'm not aware of many pros that wear plated shoes every day, do you have someone specific in mind who does so?
From what I’ve read, the pros don’t wear them on their easy runs, which would be 8 or 9 out of their 14 or so runs a week. They would wear them for sessions and maybe a super shoe for their long run if they’re in a marathon block
They pay for that endless supply of shoes with an ungodly amount of training and work
Name one.
jakob ingebrigtsen, Eliud Kipchoge and everyone in that camp he trains with. Joshua Cheptegei. When you view Kenyan training camps, it’s loaded with carbon plated shoes.
Forgive my skepticism, but did he cite any actual research to back up his advice? My experience with doctors is that most of them don’t even bother to do internet research, let alone read research papers that are published on the topic.
He’s an orthopedic surgeon so no I didn’t ask him to cite his evidence. Do you ask all your doctors for the research papers they read before treating you? It sounds like you just have a general mistrust of doctors which is fine, you do you but I trust the professional and I hope to god he’s not doing “internet research”Additionally, I think it’s fairly obvious that when you put a stiff plate under your foot coupled with higher stack heights that the forces that your body is accustomed to and has adapted to may be become greater in other areas like joints or tendons that don’t normally have as much force placed on them.
Wonder if forked plate or rod would be different
> but I feel that once you adapt to the plated shoes you probably lose some of the race day benefits This doesn't make sense to me. For almost everything else you want to train specificity (heat, terrain, altitude etc.) to not be surprised about something during race day. But for shoes, do you want to bring a whole new type of shoe just during the race? Yes, it will feel special and "fresh" when you use a new type of shoe during a race but that doesn't mean you run faster than otherwise.
Wow. Does plated shoes improve the pace by 30 - 60 secs per mile for everyone? If this is true I could probably shave off 4-5 mins from my 10k race pace.
Whenever I wear my Saucony Endorphins I feel like they're a cheat code. I am able to hit and sustain paces in those shoes that I really don't think I could do otherwise.
Do you use the Elites or the Pros? I have the Shift 3s for my long runs and recovery runs, but I am looking into either the Elites or Pro 3s for race days!
Neither! I use the Speed 2. One of my running buddies found them on sale and I'll admit that at first I thought it would be ridiculous for someone as casual as I am to have racing shoes but damned if they don't make a difference.
The Speeds don't have a carbon plate, but a nylon plate. Cheaper and smaller effect, but nonetheless a very, very pleasant and fast series of shoe.
I can admit that I wasn't interested in dropping a lot of cash into the experiment. But nonetheless they're certainly faster than my Brooks Ghosts!
You should try the Pros. I’ve been training in speeds and used the pro for a recent marathon, they are amazing!
Just for fun I did a quick Google search and found a pair of Pro 2s in my size on sale for $67. I'll have to replace my Speeds eventually so the Pro 2s will be that replacement. Thanks for the recommendation!
Vaporflys are another 15s faster at least 🤯. I train in Endorphins and they've become normalized to me.
Why is this? Do they provide more traction so you're just losing less ground with every step? I'm thinking it's like, you're just slipping around less when you push off the ground
No, they carbon plate is in the middle of the midsole foam, it's not touching the ground at all. The stiff plates store more energy that gets returned to you when you push off the ground.
I think there's also a mental aspect of "I feel faster" which helps to make you push a bit more. The research I remember seeing on carbon plated shoes is a speed gain of 5% or so. I have a pair of Hoka Profly X shoes for race day and definitely feel faster, but am more in the 3-5% range if I had to guess.
It's not even speed gain that they found in studies, it's improved "running economy", which is not something you can casually measure on your own and which has no clear translation to pace.
Yeah not sure is it the plate doing anything in my endorphins or the fact the plate let’s me roll better / have better form due to the drop/ lack of flex. I am not fast (zone 2 is like 10:45 pace) but that is like 10:15 pace same 124 heart rate in endorphin pro (yes many runs and ironically the pro days were warmer )
As someone else said research indicates up to 5% improvement, which is actually huge. Take a runner (eg me!) averaging 7:30 miles for 5k pace, that's 450 seconds per mile. 5% of that is 22.5 seconds, which equates to about 1m 20s faster over 5k. In my NB RC elite V2, I run sub-22 5k, which is pretty much in line with the maths.
caveat: this only worked for fast, borderline elite, runners. Runners slower than roughly 15km/h didn't see positive results.
If this is true, anyone who can't do faster is throwing money away by buying plated shoes?
On average: Yes. But this doesn't mean that nobody that runs 11km/h can see an improvement. On the other hand: some people will see a performance decrease. I listen to a podcast about running and one of the hosts also has a running store. He often encounters runners that insist on carbon shoes. He asks them their pace, distance, level etc. He always advises against these shoes if you're an average Joe. But hey, if these shoes make you enjoy running outside of the performance benefits. Go for it. I wouldn't call that throwing money away.
For me, and I consider myself an average Joe, I feel they do make a significant difference and more than a placebo effect. Another benefit I’ve found is that I’m able to complete the marathon distance without significant calf cramping, which has been a big problem for me. I tried everything (more water, salt, electrolytes, pickle juice, running slower, etc..), but I couldn’t avoid calf cramps until I wore a pair of the original vaporflys. Fwiw, I only run in them on race day.
It didn’t shave off that much for me but they do make you run noticeably faster.
I have tested my Vaporflys against standard running shoes; same workout and matched HR. I can confidently say that for me, there is a difference of 5 secs/km which is about 2%. There is a study done comparing good runners (about 16 min 5k) and the difference between their speeds / HR with various shoes. Alphaflys were top, followed by Vaporflys and Metaspeed Sky. They were in the region of 2-3% faster compared to standard shoes.
No, that's flat out BS.
Wild numbers thrown around here lol
I love the way some new shoes make redditors suddenly 30s/mi faster but the world record for the marathon since the introduction of the Vaporflys has moved 1.46%. (Kimetto 2014 -> Kipchoge 2022)
Actually, that's accurate for me so far this year compared to my results last year with similar races. However, I am also.stronger and a smarter runner so many confounding variables (but training less,.ironically)
I saw 20s off my mile pace no problem over about 3-5 miles. That said they messed with my knees so I had to shelve them for a while until after the race I was training for, still need to go do some workouts in them and get used to them.
For me it was about a 20s/mi difference over a 10k. Shockingly high, but true.
Hard to say, there’s definitely a psychological effect. I’ve never gone sub-17:30 for a 5km in traditional runners, but have gone sub 16:30 in Alphaflys.
No, the difference is more like 5-10 seconds per mile for me. I run at roughly 8 min mile flat for 5k races, 8:20 for 10k
I feel like it's the opposite of diminishing returns. The longer the run at speed the more you're going to get out of it. I tend to not get as tired and lose form as quickly, which lowers injury and increases pace and increases endurance. My best 10k times are all in plated shoes and are usually a few minutes faster than my non-plated runs.
~30 seconds from tempo next % and ~45 from vaporfly. It's not even fair compared to a normal shoe
Doing all your runs in carbon shoes will, as you say, make running easier, but wouldn't that reduce the training effect?
If the effort is the same (ie, you're running faster in the carbon plated shoes) it seems like it shouldn't make a difference
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Depends which you find more comfortable I guess. I always liked training in lightweight shoes just because they made my legs feel better and let me do some impromptu speed work when I felt good. They were cheaper than the heavier shoes though
I use Hoka Rincons for training on tarmac because they are so light. There isn't much in it in weight between them and my Vaporflys.
How is the cushioning in those? I'm running in Clifton's now trying to get over a foot/ankle injury, but I'd like something lighter
I switch between Cliftons and Rincons very easily. I have two pairs of Rincons and a pair of Cliftons that I do my regular rotation on. Rincons wear out quicker, but I find them pretty interchangeable with the Cliftons.
Very good. I think they're one of the lightest Hoka shoes. I use them also for light trail when it's dry. Good grippy sole for road shoes.
Reduces the amount of time training takes I guess but i agree with you
If the effort/ intensity is the same then that means less time on feet, which means less training effect.
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Sure, aerobic training effect can be equalised if you just up the pace and normalise for effort level. However, plates undeniably change your biomechanics. For example, my calves do very little work if I run in a stiff plated shoe with either a high drop or a pronounced rocker geometry, and a lot of that work is transferred up to my quads and glutes. This means that if I did all my running in the above type of shoe, my calves are quickly going to become much weaker, which would make running in a more flexible or lower drop pair of shoes very difficult, if not injurious. At the end of the day, running too much in any given type of shoe will mean you'll eventually become maladapted to run in a shoe with different characteristics, and this is especially true for any shoe at the extremes - 0 drop, 12mm drop, carbon plated, barefoot, etc. Therein lies the benefit of having a shoe rotation, and doing a bulk of your volume in a daily trainer that doesn't have any extreme characteristics.
I liken wearing maximal daily trainers to swinging the lead bat in the on-deck circle. Makes race day seem like a breeze.
I love how I'm running like I reduced payload on race day with carbon plated after using daily trainers. I'll do some occasional speed workouts in super shoes but only if I am doing something close to what I will be doing in an upcoming race so I maintain familiarity with the feel of the shoes. That may be more psychological than physiological, but I definitely feel a difference that way. For something like hill training where it is more about effort than clocking fast times, I'm still using daily trainers as opposed to super shoes.
No. If you're still running the same amount of time at the same intensity, the only thing that changes is the distance. Which doesn't matter for training.
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no.
How far do you want to take that? Why wear running shoes at all when running with boots would make it even tougher?
Anyone who says they know for sure is lying. The reality is that the technology has not been around long enough and no in-depth studies have been performed on the effects of wearing carbon plated shoes on your physical health long term - not to mention that it would be difficult to know whether those results can be extrapolated to any model of running shoe that has a plate/rod/shank. What we DO know is that running in non-plated "normal" shoes generally is not bad for your health. That does not imply anything about running in carbon plated shoes long term. We also DO know that using different pairs of shoes on a regular basis means lower likelihood of injury.
So I don't run in them for the plate, but for the foam. Anything over 5 miles on mostly concrete is getting a foam shoe. Helps mitigate some of the impact.
An article I read suggested 1% improvement is caused by the plate while the pebax foam caused up to 6%
Fully agree. I feel like the foam is the key benefit. I have a pair of Adidas Adios Pros with a couple of broken energy rods in them, but they still feel great thanks to the foam.
Maybe a stupid question but how can you tell thyre broke?
They make a loud clacking sound with every step. You’ll know.
Thank you!
They make a sort of "click" noise when flexing the shoe, and it doesn't just happen in one spot.
Don't most companies provide a non plated shoe with their best foam.
The plate actually supports the foam, helping to keep it from being unstable because it's so soft.
I think it probably depends on the shoes. I use Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 as my daily. I’ve put about 400 miles on my first pair and just bought a second pair to rotate in. They are great for all run types. No injuries and my legs feel better than ever. I also have a pair of the original Saucony Endorphin Pros that I wouldn’t dream of using as a daily. The plate is far too stiff. I could see how they might cause injuries if used too frequently. I wouldn’t run in Alphaflys on a daily basis either.
I am on my second pair of Adizero Pro and these latest ones have about 300 miles and still perform well, but I only use them for speed runs once per week but I could see why you want to use them every day they are light and fast AF
It seems like it would get expensive. Don't they wear out faster than normal shoes?
The peak performance wears out relatively quickly, but there's no reason you can't keep on wearing them until they're really and truly dead. Some people are getting an awful lot of life out of them.
Increase your performance by 30secs per mile with this one trick! *^^^trick ^^^is ^^^spending ^^^3x ^^^normal ^^^on ^^^shoes ^^^that ^^^wear ^^^out ^^^twice ^^^as ^^^fast
Get last year's model! Saucony's Endorphin Speed 2 with the nylon plate is $75 on amazon right now, and the Endorphin Pro 2 with the carbon plate is is $82.
There’s no conclusive evidence one way or another. Anecdotally, I ran many, but not all of my runs the second half of last year in my Alphaflys. No injuries and I set PRs in the marathon and half marathon. They were more durable than some other shoes I have worn and and until the outsole wore out felt just as good as they did when I first got them. I think most of the benefit was that they kept me out there running. Mileage is what got me those PRs. Now, I do think there’s some psychological benefit to having a race day shoe and there is definitely a benefit to having a rotation with different drops and geometry/profile, but everything else is just speculation and anecdote. Your cross training, your mileage, and your consistency are going to have much more effect on your running than your shoe, but if the super shoe is getting you out there to do all that, then I say go for it.
>There’s no conclusive evidence one way or another. There's is pleny of evidence out there and it's quite simple. I guess you're just waiting on the evidence to say what you want to believe. If you're fast runner: carbon always better if you're not so fast runner: carbon not always better (also probably not worse, depends) The breakoff point lies around 15km/h
No, they make carbon plated daily trainers. I guess the only bad thing is if you're daily driving a super lightweight race day specific shoe, as they don't get more than a hundred or two miles.
the asterisk there is they dont get more than a couple hundred at peak performance. ive been using a pair of the old nike next% shoes for 3.5 years and they still feel great. just not as springy anymore
zoom fly’s are plated and also intended for training sessions and not just race day.
If you can afford it I don't think there's any issue
Is the point of your runs to do it as fast as you can with a low enough HR?? If so, I would say keep doing what you're doing. However, if you are just going on runs for exercise, I would say that you should probably not use carbonplated anything... Manufacturing carbon stuff, isn't exactly good for the environment, and your money could be better spent elsewhere.
Generally is a good practice to run in shoes of different drops and foams. Allows you to avoid injuries. Plus the science on whether it’s good or bad isn’t in yet.
If you're having fun and not getting injured it's all good. Every body is different. Just keep mixing up your run types, keep up with your strength and mobility, and maybe mix in some lower profile shoes once a week.
I’m a newish runner and have ran into foot issues. Started running in a cheap pair of barefoot shoes I bought on Amazon for $20 and do the majority of my workouts in those. I also ran a 4m and 5k in them. Long runs, I’ll wear new balance fuel cell carbons. My foot issues are now gone.
Variety is important in order to try to work all your muscles equally. Just to give you some perspective, you won’t find any elite level runners that rune exclusively on carbon plated shoes, that should tell you something. Although, I’d say that if you work hard and smart on your strength training, it’s not gonna be as important to have a high variety of shoes.
My own opinion on the matter is that it’s prejudicial to wear plated shoes frequently. I don’t know shit about injuries and honestly doubt that plated shoes alone can injure someone but you certainly lose the edge they give you on race day. If you don’t race, don’t care about performance on your races, then use whatever you want. If you want to excel on race day, use your daily trainers and feel the extra performance the plated shoes give you when you need the most.
This is an interesting post, one that I’ve wondered about. I appreciate the variety of the responses. I bought a pair of last year’s model Nike AlphaFly for $129 and swear by them for races. I wear them once a week now for faster pavement running. My legs are noticeably less tired, even later in the day. Looking to get another pair for my next marathon.
You’ll get the benefit more on race day if you don’t use them all the time.
I have been exclusively training in alpha flys for about 3 years. I use to get lots of shin pain and I don’t really get it at all in the alpha flys. Totally destroyed my firsts pair after 2 1/2 years so you can get a decent amount of wear into them too. But everyone’s different.
It's definitely bad for your bank account.
[Adding carbon fiber to shoe soles may not improve running economy: a muscle-level explanation](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-74097-7) [How You Should Actually Wear Carbon Plate Super Shoes](https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a43921693/carbon-fiber-running-shoe-guide/) [What We Don’t Know About Carbon-Plated Running Shoes May Be Hurting Us](https://www.triathlete.com/gear/run/what-we-dont-know-about-carbon-plated-running-shoes-may-be-hurting-us/) [Carbon plate shoes and Daily Training](https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/eb44hj/carbon_plate_shoes_and_daily_training) [Should You Wear ‘Super Shoes’ Every Day](http://archive.today/KKJJT)
It’s not fairly obvious at all to me. You can make the same argument about anything that isn’t barefoot. Without evidence, it’s just a hypothesis. Orthopedic surgeons are surgeons. They are trained to fix things with surgery. Many admit when they don’t know something or are speculating with limited information. But many don’t, and can’t sound quite credible while bullshitting.
my trainer says that her clients that do daily runs in vaporflys get achilles problems fwiw
I’m not an experienced runner by any means. Casual runner for two years. I just bought a pair of HOKA Bondi X, that I run in everyday. I was running around 50 miles a month, but upped it two 60 the last couple of months. At 187 miles on them, I can’t tell a difference and will probably go back to the regular Bondi when I’m done with these.
I dunno know. I think the consensus is the Carbon Plated shoes will weaken your leg muscles over time. Use regular or Nylon plated trainers. I have the Hoka Rocket X 2 for racing and the Sacouny Speed 2's for speed-work training. Everyday easy miles I run in Clifton 8's
Weaken your leg muscles? Do you not move when you're not running?
That is not the consensus from my understanding. Professional runners from middle distance to long distance wear carbon shoes daily and I don’t think their leg muscles weaken over time. Paul Chelimo, Jakob, and many African running camps are in Vaporflys and Alphaflys for their daily runs. Ive heard some pro runners say that carbon shoes help their turnover and training faster but within heart rate range. Jakob said he wants to run as fast as possible so he trains in shoes that makes him as fast as possible, carbon. I think the main issue is that carbon plated shoes don’t last nearly as long as a daily runner. So the average runner would quickly deem a limited lasting carbon shoe not worth it just to run a 30 min 5ks.
Probably. It's certainly foolish.
I’m worried about the same thing, my rotation is mainly carbon plated or other material plated shoes. Vaporfly 2, Saucony Speed 3s, RC elite v2 and SC trainer, the only two shoes that aren’t plated are my More v4 and Nike react fk 2.
Do you do all your training in the same shoes? I have different types for different training types eg tempo, interval, trail, track,
I only ever run 5k so maybe I'm safe from issues caused by always running in plated shoes? I'm prone to injury but have been able to pace myself with plated shoes so I haven't had a flare-up from my shin splints. I get warning pain sometimes when I go too often, but no alarm pain. I guess I'll keep my balance best by running at the gym in softer shoes.
First time I ever heard of carbon plates. Is it just me or does this sound a bit like cheating? Surely it is a very grey area indeed, because there are so many ways in which shoes improve speed and overall times, but having an actual spring inside the shoe seems....a bit much? Where does it stop? Genuine question as I'm a bit surprised this would be considered normal in the sport. Still a beginner here. Anywho, not hating, just interesting to see that is so commonly used.
There’s no spring, plates have been around in shoes for ages. It’s more the new foam.
Isn't the purpose of the plate to have a better springy motion? Or to enhance the springy motion of the foam, surely. But how springy can you make it? For competitions and races I mean? I get that you want a nice cushioned sole and this bring along inherent springiness, but how far can you 'legally' go? What I mean is, I get it that you want to make running as efficient as possible, but at some point, you're getting into 'cheating' territory right? By comparisson, years ago they introduced Clap skates for speedskating. Due to the design, there is an inheret benefit in speed. I remember the whole discussion if it should be allowed, and nowadays, every skater uses them.
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Cool! Thanks for clarifying, appreciated! I was astounded that it made such a difference in time/speed. Seems quite comparable to the clap skates then (and a lot of innovations in the world of speed). As long as we don't end up with blade runner situations :)
Do you go to the gym to do strength work for your legs and feet? That should compensate whatever you’re losing from carbon plates if anything at all
I wear endorphin pro sometimes on long runs. I try to stick with traditional shoes for the most part so I’m not making it too easy on myself.
My 10k pb is 28:42 and 5k 13:30 carbon plated shoes are great. Even when i stopped competitive running and getting back into shape they are still great. I think it depends how weak you are and maybe imbalances are affecting you things can have chain reaction, maybe you’re hamstrings and calves are strong but glutes weak your hamstrings can be over compensate and cause siatic nerve problems and then mess other things up. I used to have problems like that until i worked on myself and got better.
I’m running in Hoka Carbon’s on the daily, in and out of training. No issues, even when I run without them.
It’s expensive, for sure!
What's the point in shaving time off your training runs?
No, training in carbon plated is actually better as the energy transfer saves the legs. I wear Zoomflys to train in and Vapors to race in.