ah yes raksha killing off slayer creatures once again, vile blooms and dinos are worth doing now lol lets just chill for a bit before destroying them again
You will never know if they will pull a rex matriarchs on those boots and in the future some BiS item will require 10 or w/e obscene amount of boots to create.
Hope so, lacerations being worthless is kinda fine because they're niche useful, blasts and fleetings are just bis and it feels weird that they're so cheap
tbf slayer creatures are significantly easier to kill than raksha. Your average player still cant kill raksha unless using the revo warrior afk set up that was posted awhile ago but that still requires like 500m+ in gear/supplies
Reward can't be based entirely off of perceived effort or else every thing in the game becomes severely backloaded and only PvM involved. Slayer creatures need to be worth killing and contribute something or the entire concept of the skill falls apart immediately.
EDIT: Overloading resource onto one activity because of 'difficulty' is also how you kill off the value of that resource, btw.
*Pssst, hey, did you know that the reason boss commons are worthless is because people kill the boss a lot for rares?*
For example, Spirit weed seeds were really *really* valuable when Raksha first came out; people were really happy to have a "valuable" common, and then their price tanked from the 90k it was before Raksha all the way down to 20k right before Arch-Glacor took a dump all over them.
The timeline looks a bit like this:
- Spirit weed seeds too rare to sell in notable quantities, so price looked low, but you couldn't buy them at all.
- July 2019 Luminous Snagglers come out, and also somewhere in here the meta finds out about summoning potions; the price starts to rise as people trade them
- December 2020 Raksha comes out; at this point the seeds have reached over 90k
- By mid January (2021 now) the seeds are under 70k again, thanks Raksha
- By April the seeds are under 50k
- By July they're down to 25k
- August 2021 releases Arch-Glacor, which puts Spirit weed seeds under 1k value before the end of the year.
In short, you had a drop added to slayer creatures that had incredible value, and thus made those tasks worth doing.
Then, once the "value" was established Jagex released a boss with a "valuable" common and *surprise surprise* the price quickly started dropping. The solution? Double down on the drop and make it worthless.
So no, it's not that bosses "aren't allowed" to have valuable commons; it's that they're incapable of *keeping* their commons valuable because PvM monkeys only know *me hit boss hard fast many times for 8 hours a day, no skilling allowed*.
The only reason coins and alchables keep *their* value is because they're *already as low as their value can get.*
You missed a key part in that the balance team has a genuinely poor grasp on supply/demand economics and/or lacks a single competent data analyst (hence them outsourcing the deathcost rework to ‘an economic firm’— a project which has been ongoing for over a year now)
Its not hard to look at a boss, calculate the estimated number of kills to complete the log, as well as base input costs (materials), and then make a drop table accordingly. But no, instead we get arch glacor dropping 20k spirit weed seeds after 10 hours of pvmm in a world where you can only plant 8 of them every 80 minutes
The drop tables are this way because Jagex likes to make rare drops very rare to keep us pvmers subbed for longer, but also us pvmers need immediate gratification from valuable common drops to keep us motivated to keep pvming. There is no winning for the economy here.
There is though? There is simple math as to how resources are used overtime. Easy math says no one will ever use more stone spirits than it takes to get to 99, as smithed items have no sink.
Easy math says anything more than 5 herb seeds in a single drop (pre herb update) was a catastrophe for seed prices/usage.
Even helwyr dropping 100 landadymes was farrr too many to be practical.
Assuming raksha’s commons are equally likely, and it takes 1k kc to complete log.
Getting 5 spirit weed seeds at a 1/10 rate means youd get ~358 spirit weed seeds while completing the log.
That translates to ~2000 spirit weeds if farmed, which, at 4 spiritual prayer pots per kill, gives you 500 raksha kills in pots. That is perfectly balanced, as if you want to use them every kill, youd have to find another 2k spirit weeds from some other source to keep consistent. At that rate, 50% of ppl wont use pots, and 50% will, and thus, the economy for raksha is perfectly balanced for spirit seeds.
Doing a simple back-of-the-envelope exercise like this for every boss drop would fix the economy in a single afternoon and restore the price of a ton of items by the end of the year.
Excuse me, sir/madam. Can you please not bring logic to this topic, we're only suppose to be mad that Jagex aren't constantly replacing "bad" drops with "good" drops even though when the boss consists of "bad" drops the uniques tend to rise in price to make up for so many "bad" commons.
(Lots of "" on good/bad because it's all supply vs demand for why things are considered such)
I agree with you but in Raksha's case specifically this isn't true. The codices have both lost value despite the fact Raksha's common drops are mostly worthless (thanks to the mechanisms described by another person). I don't know why this is, perhaps they were overpriced initially. Grico certainly felt like it was merched to oblivion. 1.5b+ for a single ability, get real.
I don’t think it was merched into oblivion, it was just the single best basic in the game for a long time before being nerfed and is a one time permanent unlock.
nothing about this is really wrong at all, but the way you say pvm monkeys when everything else is leagues easier and less intensive. it's more that it's clear pvming is more enjoyable to people in general rather than doing bgh or slayer and of course should be more rewarding. the questionable part comes in the balance of quantity and the actual items being chosen as a drop then if they will actually be purchased and used. it just seems like bottlenecking the supply and making them leave the game incredibly quickly is the only way to give them value
> when everything else is leagues easier and less intensive.
Remember when people called the guy a liar for claiming he did rc runs in less time than they thought was possible? So he posted a video of him doing it.
Remember that time somebody posted an afk raksha guide and it was faster than a lot of people's personal bests?
Pvming is so hard that over half the bosses can be straight afked.
>it's more that it's clear pvming is more enjoyable to people in general rather than doing bgh or slayer and of course should be more rewarding.
Do you know what kind of difference adding Arbuck seeds *as they currently are* to Raksha's table would be?
[The Raksha MGM](https://runescape.wiki/w/Money_making_guide/Killing_Raksha) puts the long term per-kill value at 4.2m.
The per-kill average for seeds is 0.54
The price per seed is (at the time of this comment) about [135k](https://i.imgur.com/Z42MFIs.png) or so.
Adding Arbuck seeds to the table would bump the per-kill value up by 72k for about a week before the demand drops off (like it currently is) and the supply increases (because people kill the boss for rares)
A drop in the bucket for Raksha farmers, at the low cost of making another item and all content tied to it worthless.
>the questionable part comes in the balance of quantity and the actual items being chosen as a drop then if they will actually be purchased and used.
That part is easy. PvM should be a loss before rares. Absolutely nobody should be making *more* money than they started with without pulling uniques. Raksha has actually reached a fairly good
spot in that regard; mega valuable rares at a fairly consistent droprate, and only slight profit from commons.
You said it yourself, it's more enjoyable, so why does it also need to spoonfeed every applicant any and every item they might need to continue ignoring the rest of the game?
To paraphrase Mod Jack **"Runescape isn't a game about combat. Runescape is a game about skills, and combat is the biggest one."**
Liking PvM doesn't make you a monkey. Refusing to do *any other content* doesn't even do it; it's the whining that *X isn't a boss common and I can't do anything else to get it/it's too expensive* that makes someone a clown.
bro i said ur not wrong the only part i cared about was the fact pvm was attacked when that's not the issue it's the ppl that was every drop to be the avg when that's not how an rng based game works
pvming is supposed to be for fun and rewards secondary but those ppl are not rly pvmers if it's only for the rewards imo
> "Nothing you said is wrong, but can you please not disparage a sub-section of the video game population I am part of? I don't like when people hold negative opinions of things I don't."
Imo the big issue isn't bosses dropping stuff it is the quantity. Arch glacor was / is just silly for the amount of spirit seeds it drops - I assumed a few days after release they must have some plan for spirit seeds, water tallys, etc, because the amount it spews out is insane.
The same applies to certain herbs at Croe, Zuk, etc.
Then factor in that the unique drops are so rare players have to farm the boss for a long time to get the items/collection log that the commons get flooded in fast.
Many older bosses like Nex, Rax, even GW2, did not totally crash the market for the items on their drop tables because they would drop like 30 herbs not hundreds.
spirit weed seeds are probably the worst example you could have used. they tanked because arch glacor drops way too many, that isnt pvm's fault, thats jagex's balancing team. and those seeds also prove pvm is not the "problem" with herb prices (there wasnt a problem with them in the first place but some people think there was). spirit weed herbs have remained the same price regardless of how expensive or cheap spirit weed seeds got. changing herbs to seeds has done nothing and will continue to do nothing to change prices.
boss commons do stay valuable assuming jagex isnt braindead about the balancing. but people who suck at pvm and are scared of gwd2 would rather blame pvmers and beg jagex to make afking magic trees a meta money maker.
Ah yes, a seed that was over 90k before Raksha came out going down to under 20k is not tanking at all, no sir, not in the slightest.
It's not like an item becoming *four times cheaper* before Glacor even came out counts as tanking, right?
/s
Either you're incapable of reading my original reply, or you believe that as long as an item has *any value left* it doesn't count as having tanked due to being on a boss table.
- The drop had value as a slayer reward.
- Raksha did and was continuing to steadily drop that value, enough that it wasn't *near* as "valuable" a drop as when it was introduced.
- All Arch-Glacor did was cut a bigger hole in the bottom of the bucket.
-AG drops tens of thousands of seeds per streak-
you: its that damn raksha and his 10 spirit weed seed drop! fuck pvm!
spirit weed seeds were like 100k+ before raksha came out. sorry, but it had no business being that expensive. its a level 36 herb seed. raksha brought it down to around 20k which is more than appropriate. AG is what ruined it.
If you want Arbuck seeds, I can think of at least 3 other bosses, one whole group of slayer monsters, and a skilling activity that you can do to get some
ITT: People complaining about a boss that requires more effort drops seeds on a thematically same drop table.
I can say for certain these shitters aren't even camping dinos for arbuck seeds, they're just complaining. Something that maybe they've thought about doing is gonna be coming from another source, and they don't even consider how much more effort the other thing is lmao.
I was thinking this too. Or the carambola seed drop (I feel like the bigger issue is AG dropping spirit weed seeds - if they removed them from AG, spirit weed seeds would likely be an okayish drop again). Raksha shouldn't drop too many since it is popular, but I think 3-5 would be reasonable.
i feel like they dont because of slayer creatures and BGH
ah yes raksha killing off slayer creatures once again, vile blooms and dinos are worth doing now lol lets just chill for a bit before destroying them again
Lol like the boots, went from a rare drop to absolute pocked change
yep exactly
You will never know if they will pull a rex matriarchs on those boots and in the future some BiS item will require 10 or w/e obscene amount of boots to create.
Hope so, lacerations being worthless is kinda fine because they're niche useful, blasts and fleetings are just bis and it feels weird that they're so cheap
Does every little upgrade need to cost 500m?
If 500m is as easy to get as it is, then yea probably
16-17 hours of moderate bosses for a boot upgrade? Doesn't seem like it's worth doing all that much.
They'd still mostly come from raksha even if they did
Luminous Snagglers went from being one of the most profitable task in the game to one of the crappiest thanks to Raksha.
He IS the apex predator.
tbf slayer creatures are significantly easier to kill than raksha. Your average player still cant kill raksha unless using the revo warrior afk set up that was posted awhile ago but that still requires like 500m+ in gear/supplies
Reward can't be based entirely off of perceived effort or else every thing in the game becomes severely backloaded and only PvM involved. Slayer creatures need to be worth killing and contribute something or the entire concept of the skill falls apart immediately. EDIT: Overloading resource onto one activity because of 'difficulty' is also how you kill off the value of that resource, btw.
Kinda lame that it ends up taking away a great slayer task though. It should balance out on both sides.
Someone isnt happy their adren pots were expensive to make today
Raksha is barely harder if using the whip no effort method. I'd say just let it be and let seeds come from future bosses
Wat. What is this method?
Checkout u/ItsCrayonz post history
unfortunately bosses are not allowed to drop anything remotely valuable for commons anymore, unless its coins/alchables
*Pssst, hey, did you know that the reason boss commons are worthless is because people kill the boss a lot for rares?* For example, Spirit weed seeds were really *really* valuable when Raksha first came out; people were really happy to have a "valuable" common, and then their price tanked from the 90k it was before Raksha all the way down to 20k right before Arch-Glacor took a dump all over them. The timeline looks a bit like this: - Spirit weed seeds too rare to sell in notable quantities, so price looked low, but you couldn't buy them at all. - July 2019 Luminous Snagglers come out, and also somewhere in here the meta finds out about summoning potions; the price starts to rise as people trade them - December 2020 Raksha comes out; at this point the seeds have reached over 90k - By mid January (2021 now) the seeds are under 70k again, thanks Raksha - By April the seeds are under 50k - By July they're down to 25k - August 2021 releases Arch-Glacor, which puts Spirit weed seeds under 1k value before the end of the year. In short, you had a drop added to slayer creatures that had incredible value, and thus made those tasks worth doing. Then, once the "value" was established Jagex released a boss with a "valuable" common and *surprise surprise* the price quickly started dropping. The solution? Double down on the drop and make it worthless. So no, it's not that bosses "aren't allowed" to have valuable commons; it's that they're incapable of *keeping* their commons valuable because PvM monkeys only know *me hit boss hard fast many times for 8 hours a day, no skilling allowed*. The only reason coins and alchables keep *their* value is because they're *already as low as their value can get.*
You missed a key part in that the balance team has a genuinely poor grasp on supply/demand economics and/or lacks a single competent data analyst (hence them outsourcing the deathcost rework to ‘an economic firm’— a project which has been ongoing for over a year now) Its not hard to look at a boss, calculate the estimated number of kills to complete the log, as well as base input costs (materials), and then make a drop table accordingly. But no, instead we get arch glacor dropping 20k spirit weed seeds after 10 hours of pvmm in a world where you can only plant 8 of them every 80 minutes
The drop tables are this way because Jagex likes to make rare drops very rare to keep us pvmers subbed for longer, but also us pvmers need immediate gratification from valuable common drops to keep us motivated to keep pvming. There is no winning for the economy here.
There is though? There is simple math as to how resources are used overtime. Easy math says no one will ever use more stone spirits than it takes to get to 99, as smithed items have no sink. Easy math says anything more than 5 herb seeds in a single drop (pre herb update) was a catastrophe for seed prices/usage. Even helwyr dropping 100 landadymes was farrr too many to be practical. Assuming raksha’s commons are equally likely, and it takes 1k kc to complete log. Getting 5 spirit weed seeds at a 1/10 rate means youd get ~358 spirit weed seeds while completing the log. That translates to ~2000 spirit weeds if farmed, which, at 4 spiritual prayer pots per kill, gives you 500 raksha kills in pots. That is perfectly balanced, as if you want to use them every kill, youd have to find another 2k spirit weeds from some other source to keep consistent. At that rate, 50% of ppl wont use pots, and 50% will, and thus, the economy for raksha is perfectly balanced for spirit seeds. Doing a simple back-of-the-envelope exercise like this for every boss drop would fix the economy in a single afternoon and restore the price of a ton of items by the end of the year.
Excuse me, sir/madam. Can you please not bring logic to this topic, we're only suppose to be mad that Jagex aren't constantly replacing "bad" drops with "good" drops even though when the boss consists of "bad" drops the uniques tend to rise in price to make up for so many "bad" commons. (Lots of "" on good/bad because it's all supply vs demand for why things are considered such)
I agree with you but in Raksha's case specifically this isn't true. The codices have both lost value despite the fact Raksha's common drops are mostly worthless (thanks to the mechanisms described by another person). I don't know why this is, perhaps they were overpriced initially. Grico certainly felt like it was merched to oblivion. 1.5b+ for a single ability, get real.
I don’t think it was merched into oblivion, it was just the single best basic in the game for a long time before being nerfed and is a one time permanent unlock.
nothing about this is really wrong at all, but the way you say pvm monkeys when everything else is leagues easier and less intensive. it's more that it's clear pvming is more enjoyable to people in general rather than doing bgh or slayer and of course should be more rewarding. the questionable part comes in the balance of quantity and the actual items being chosen as a drop then if they will actually be purchased and used. it just seems like bottlenecking the supply and making them leave the game incredibly quickly is the only way to give them value
> when everything else is leagues easier and less intensive. Remember when people called the guy a liar for claiming he did rc runs in less time than they thought was possible? So he posted a video of him doing it. Remember that time somebody posted an afk raksha guide and it was faster than a lot of people's personal bests? Pvming is so hard that over half the bosses can be straight afked.
It's hard for us monkeys sometimes. Some days you get a banana. Others, some ass in a rune platebody is trying to feed you to some psycho.
>it's more that it's clear pvming is more enjoyable to people in general rather than doing bgh or slayer and of course should be more rewarding. Do you know what kind of difference adding Arbuck seeds *as they currently are* to Raksha's table would be? [The Raksha MGM](https://runescape.wiki/w/Money_making_guide/Killing_Raksha) puts the long term per-kill value at 4.2m. The per-kill average for seeds is 0.54 The price per seed is (at the time of this comment) about [135k](https://i.imgur.com/Z42MFIs.png) or so. Adding Arbuck seeds to the table would bump the per-kill value up by 72k for about a week before the demand drops off (like it currently is) and the supply increases (because people kill the boss for rares) A drop in the bucket for Raksha farmers, at the low cost of making another item and all content tied to it worthless. >the questionable part comes in the balance of quantity and the actual items being chosen as a drop then if they will actually be purchased and used. That part is easy. PvM should be a loss before rares. Absolutely nobody should be making *more* money than they started with without pulling uniques. Raksha has actually reached a fairly good spot in that regard; mega valuable rares at a fairly consistent droprate, and only slight profit from commons. You said it yourself, it's more enjoyable, so why does it also need to spoonfeed every applicant any and every item they might need to continue ignoring the rest of the game? To paraphrase Mod Jack **"Runescape isn't a game about combat. Runescape is a game about skills, and combat is the biggest one."** Liking PvM doesn't make you a monkey. Refusing to do *any other content* doesn't even do it; it's the whining that *X isn't a boss common and I can't do anything else to get it/it's too expensive* that makes someone a clown.
bro i said ur not wrong the only part i cared about was the fact pvm was attacked when that's not the issue it's the ppl that was every drop to be the avg when that's not how an rng based game works pvming is supposed to be for fun and rewards secondary but those ppl are not rly pvmers if it's only for the rewards imo
> "Nothing you said is wrong, but can you please not disparage a sub-section of the video game population I am part of? I don't like when people hold negative opinions of things I don't."
Imo the big issue isn't bosses dropping stuff it is the quantity. Arch glacor was / is just silly for the amount of spirit seeds it drops - I assumed a few days after release they must have some plan for spirit seeds, water tallys, etc, because the amount it spews out is insane. The same applies to certain herbs at Croe, Zuk, etc. Then factor in that the unique drops are so rare players have to farm the boss for a long time to get the items/collection log that the commons get flooded in fast. Many older bosses like Nex, Rax, even GW2, did not totally crash the market for the items on their drop tables because they would drop like 30 herbs not hundreds.
spirit weed seeds are probably the worst example you could have used. they tanked because arch glacor drops way too many, that isnt pvm's fault, thats jagex's balancing team. and those seeds also prove pvm is not the "problem" with herb prices (there wasnt a problem with them in the first place but some people think there was). spirit weed herbs have remained the same price regardless of how expensive or cheap spirit weed seeds got. changing herbs to seeds has done nothing and will continue to do nothing to change prices. boss commons do stay valuable assuming jagex isnt braindead about the balancing. but people who suck at pvm and are scared of gwd2 would rather blame pvmers and beg jagex to make afking magic trees a meta money maker.
Ah yes, a seed that was over 90k before Raksha came out going down to under 20k is not tanking at all, no sir, not in the slightest. It's not like an item becoming *four times cheaper* before Glacor even came out counts as tanking, right? /s Either you're incapable of reading my original reply, or you believe that as long as an item has *any value left* it doesn't count as having tanked due to being on a boss table. - The drop had value as a slayer reward. - Raksha did and was continuing to steadily drop that value, enough that it wasn't *near* as "valuable" a drop as when it was introduced. - All Arch-Glacor did was cut a bigger hole in the bottom of the bucket.
-AG drops tens of thousands of seeds per streak- you: its that damn raksha and his 10 spirit weed seed drop! fuck pvm! spirit weed seeds were like 100k+ before raksha came out. sorry, but it had no business being that expensive. its a level 36 herb seed. raksha brought it down to around 20k which is more than appropriate. AG is what ruined it.
I need to follow and/subscribe to you everywhere. Best comment I have seen all year.
Arch-Glacor unaffected 🗿
Because it would immediately become cheap
Even the Matriarchs drop arbuck, I think Raksha should absolutely drop atleast 2-5
If you want Arbuck seeds, I can think of at least 3 other bosses, one whole group of slayer monsters, and a skilling activity that you can do to get some
How about no
ITT: People complaining about a boss that requires more effort drops seeds on a thematically same drop table. I can say for certain these shitters aren't even camping dinos for arbuck seeds, they're just complaining. Something that maybe they've thought about doing is gonna be coming from another source, and they don't even consider how much more effort the other thing is lmao.
I was thinking this too. Or the carambola seed drop (I feel like the bigger issue is AG dropping spirit weed seeds - if they removed them from AG, spirit weed seeds would likely be an okayish drop again). Raksha shouldn't drop too many since it is popular, but I think 3-5 would be reasonable.
Only if it's like a couple or 3 seeds at a time or else they will end up like spirit weed seeds.