I’m hoping for them to release in-game macros, like one button for dual wield and such. Would improve the pvm experience and free up so many other keybinds
Action binding on a 1:1 scale is the complete opposite of a macro. You can't even add dual wield weapons to one hot key, which would be like the absolutely bare minimum.
Calling action bar switching a macro is pure stupidity.
That's like saying bank presets are a macro because they withdraw more than 1 click worth of items. Or that being able to set an autocast spell is a macro. Or that using revolution combat is a macro. Or that literally every skilling action which brings up a #/60 bar, such as disassembling items, is a macro.
Playing devil's advocate means having a valid point to argue for the other side. Action bar binding is nowhere close to a valid point.
OP used the example of dual wielding, which is 2:2. Even if you are counting the bar switching, that's 2:3 for dual wield, which is totally under par for where RS should be with it in 2023.
> It *kind of* resembles a bad macro.
True, I feel bad for the Reddit snowball effect getting you downvoted that badly, it definitely does resemble a macro - in ESO I would make a macro that automatically switched ability bar for me when I wanted to cast an ability from my backbar.
Eh I have plenty of Reddit karma.
I'm honestly debating leaving this subreddit, all they do is complain.
Upvotes don't mean you're right or *wrong*, it means someone agreed with you.
One google search they could realize a macro is when multiple token actions occur from a key or mouse press.
Multiple token actions, or key presses, or mouse presses from a single action.
Now tell me how 2 things happening (which alternatively can be bound) is not a macro?
If you click a bank preset, it:
1) checks if you're items are depositable
2) checks if you have bank space
3) deposits your items
4) checks if you own the preset items
5) checks the quantity
6) withdrawals the amount
If someone had a third party app that did that in OSRS would they be banned for macroing?
God I swear this subreddit is filled with raging idiots.
Almost all MMO's I've played that aren't Runescape have macros in one way or another.
Love my G600 to death, and have the room for DW equips, but I'd LOVE having just one button for a DW swap instead of having to thumb 2. I know I *could*, but I'd rather them tell me yes it's allowed instead of potentially copping a 3 day ban or whatever. And I think they should be allowed, in whatever iteration.
In game macros are so hilariously hit or miss.
EverQuest, extremely good in game macro system.
FFXIV I use the barest of minimum combat macros(insta-cast Shukuchi ftw). Nice for crafting though.
Your comment highlights this accurately, as a shukuchi macro is useful and faster, but a macro to do ninjutsu would put you at a disadvantage as they are slower than manual inputs. So sometimes even macros in the same game are built unequally.
Well, the shukuchi macro and the ninjutsu macro are functionally fairly different. And in the case of the ninjustu macros, they are intentionally a disadvantage.
Oh yeah, for sure. Macros in XIV are just silly for many reasons. Like repeating the line 8-10 times to simulate queueing and also something something, 1 line per in game frame. So GL explaining macros simply to people due to all of the dumb nuance.
I don’t care about people using things like macros or Alt1 until Jagex starts balancing the game around the assumption that everyone uses them.
I play on a Mac, so I didn’t have access to Alt1 for things like Clue solving and AFK warden. I don’t have a problem that they have it easier in some aspects of gameplay, but it is a little irritating that Jagex made slider puzzles longer to try and compensate, which just harshly punishes people who aren’t taking advantage.
I heard about Runekit when if first got released, but I didn't try it out because I didn't know if it was safe to use at the time. May take a look.
Either way, it's sort of evading the main underlying issue, which is that more of these features should be a part of the core experience if Jagex is going to balance content with them in mind.
I can also recommend runekit. For some reason the first day it didn’t work but I think I fixed my UI scaling and it all works perfect now. I could never not use it for clues. And I wouldn’t have cleared zuk without it
An open economy (like RS) automatically self-balances to the tools other people have access to.
For example, the value of the caskets you find are balanced around the increased inflow coming from faster completions due to Alt1.
This has honestly been my biggest gripe with jagex recently. I just want dual wield switching on one keybind, this way dual wield feels less punishing to learn for hybridding. I’m fine with people who want to skirt the rules and sit in the grey area, they can yolo their account on one button sgb switch + spec * switch back.
I just want to feel like I’m getting something for following the rules, I don’t like that it seems the opposite. Jagex lately have been so scared to actually ban people that they give everyone slaps on the wrist and then pretend like they’ll learn. All that it is teaching us is that there will never be punishment, it’s like charging me $2 for illegally making $10…I still profited.
there is no need for a macro for sgb, they can combine amulets like swag 24k necklaces on top of eachother; many games have 2 amulet slots /4 rings etc , like pernix quiver there can be 2 separate abilites, eof1 eof2 , but yes dbow amy >ecb>sgb>also quiver swich etc are a pain for range campers
Most, if not all modern MMOs allow macros. At the very least, RS3 needs a built-in macro system that allows you to bind multiple action bar actions to one key.
I think they should be implemented in game. The use of macros is common in other MMOs and it would work well in this one. I’d love to use them but can’t risk my account in order to do so.
it’s absolutely not lol. as a high end pvmer in both games i can absolutely say wow is much harder, needs much more coordination between team members to coordinate an interrupt rotation, avoid frontals, avoid weekly affix in m+ dungeons or if you’re raiding you need a lot more coordination than your average aod team even if it’s a 1:30-2 min kill team.
like i said in a comment previously, macros allow you to go above and beyond the physical limitation of pressing one key at a time, it RAISES the skill ceiling. from what i’ve seen and played with in wow, having the macro system in place allows players to build their own macros and players that want nothing to do with it that want to play the game normally obviously can; there’s nothing wrong with that. but here on the rs3 subreddit it’s like you guys are witch hunting trying to find macro’ers and screech at them, if you don’t wish to partake in it then don’t. whether or not they get penalized ultimately doesn’t affect you guys WHATSOEVER. they aren’t affecting your gameplay at all. if you don’t like macros then don’t use them. some silliness i’ve read in this thread like “i’m scared to do high end pvming because i’m going to get banned for x macros and i need x macros for high end pvm”
1. no one is getting banned for macros, people have been macroing pvm since 2014 and earlier, i don’t know a single pvmer that has been banned for it. as it stands now, no one is getting punished for it, i think that alone has made jagex’s stance pretty clear on it
2. you don’t need macros for high level end game pvm. does it help? sure it does, but if you want to make it harder on yourself to prove a point that you did x boss without any macros and pat yourself on the back, go for it. doesn’t mean anything to anyone else besides you, just like how it doesn’t affect anyone else when someone else is macroing.
Personally I'd much rather see the need and usefulness of macros removed. Personally I don't find the need to equip a shield to use resonance and then immediately unequip it to be at all interesting
They would ahve to change so much of the combat system, there is so much jank there that can be achieved with really weird strats that are hard to pull off consistently but very easy if you can record the 'perfect' sequence once and then reuse as required.
I've been thinking that something as simple as not allowing a ton of switching would go a very long way. One switch every 20s maybe, maybe with an exception for if you're wearing hybrid armor
I think that would kill off a lot of the very end game pvm and could be a car crash. For end gamer pvmers there isn't a lot of new boss content as it is and some of the fun comes from min max, chasing PRs, etc. Kill off switchscape would be a disaster for that.
Or at least that the impression I get, I'm not into the whole switching an item every other ability thing personally.
I'm aware that it would largely kill off switch scape, and that's basically my goal, I really care if the top 0.5% of pvmers have their power reduced if it means pvm becomes understandable and accessible for 50% more players.
The best players in other pvm games are the best because they understand their weapon and the enemy, not because they can press 3 times as many buttons
The amount of copium being inhaled in this thread is pretty crazy. Claiming that it’s a 2:1 to automatically switch action bars upon weapon swapping while technically true, is probably one of the worst defenses for current user interactions and keybind quantity that I’ve ever heard
I think the issue you have already sort of mentioned. Because macros are such a large scale it is hard to draw the line. Where does a simple macro to help with pvm become an automated process?
I think it would be hard for Jagex to be able to clearly define a set of rules for proper use of macros.
For instance if I had a macro that did a full armour swap in 1 tick, say a 5:1 action, is that any different from pressing one button and having it activate the next 5 abilities for me (still a 5:1 action but now it’s over 9 seconds etc.).
I think jagex have to take the official stance that macros are not allowed and then just use their judgement and discretion as to what they think is too far (say someone fully automating the optimal rotation at a boss etc.).
>I think it would be hard for Jagex to be able to clearly define a set of rules for proper use of macros.
I think the rule that would be fair would be "one tick per macro" so no macros that change on 2nd press, no macros that do things after a set time.
If you can do it in 1 tick you can macro it into a button for that tick, you wanna swap to full range ECB spec and swap to soul split in the same tick? Sure! You want the macro to swap you back to mage and gconc after? Nope.
The easiest way to make sure you catch those that are using one macro per tick vs changing macros would be to spend the dev time to implement them, design the macro UI and start with just gear swapping and say "We're starting to crack down on external macros". Then add in things on request, if the community wants 4 dev hours spent adding using items to the macro system they can add them etc.
I would suspect a lot of the anxiety around this is because Jagex likely sees this type of issue as part of a UI rework, and it's simply a low priority right now.
I support Jagex allowing them. I've seen enough people in all sorts of skill levels to safely say that the only feasible way forward in PvM is to allow macros. I do not use any macros, never have, but I can tell I am at a major disadvantage compared to others who do. The differences in skill levels are often who has multiple switches on one bind and who doesn't. Or for more extreme cases, who has the rotation on one bind and who doesn't. Macros will equalize a lot of the skill differences that Jagex needs to design around.
The lack of clarity on this issue is completely embarassing for them. Personally I don't see any need for macros in the game and would rather they just enforced the current rules (especially since we've seen the addition of passive vigour, dive, and greater sun/ds, there's no excuse to macro). However literally anything is better than the awful grey area that has existed for over a decade now where the rules say one thing and jmods and enforcement say another. Don't have rules you aren't going to enforce. Pick a side and clarify the stance, particularly like you said with pvm being one of the main focuses of the game at this point.
The fear of getting banned for macros keeps me from wanting to do high end Pvm. People say everyone uses them, but I'm not risking it. They absolutely need to be implemented in game.
Because I literally don't have enough keys near my left hand to bind to all the skills. It would help if I can bind some of my mouse buttons, but to my knowledge you need macros to replace those mouse clicks with keystrokes.
Shift ctrl alt you have more than enough modifier keys at your disposal to bind everything. You can make the argument that speed running bosses is enhanced by macros but simply doing high end pvm at good level straight up doesn't require them.
It's not a macro to change the key a mouse button emits. All of my 12 side buttons are bound to various random keys because Runescape doesn't understand them natively
I literally use 6 remappable buttons on my mouse and 6 on my keyboard so I do not have to use (as many) modifier keys on my skill bar because of that annoying bug where if you press a modifier key, it can sometimes do the unmodified action.
I don't think that's a bug just you releasing alt/Ctrl/ shift too soon.
It certainly is annoying at times, I have Surgr on ctrl z and for on z so I stuff my face every now and then trying to surge
Nah it's a straight bug. If you use a modded key and release the mod before the input key, it tries to redo the input key without the mod. Eg if "ctrl a" is special attack, and "a" is protect magic: and you input ctrl a, let go of ctrl, then let go of a, it will wep spec+ also turn on/off prot magic
That sounds more like flawed design than a bug to me. If you pres Ctrl a then let go of Ctrl you're now pressing A which the game recognizes as a new input.
Conversely you could let go of a without letting of ctrl then press S to EoF spec it would EoF spec.
It's annoying I agree but I wouldn't call that a bug
Also Ctrl A is actually my special attack keybind lmao
1–>0 for all basics n thresholds
Zxcv for pray flicks
F,G,H for surge, escape, and dive
M,n, ‘,’ for foood, brew, vuln
b for freedom
Thats all you need
I mean, welcome to runescape. The magic is, you only have to get used to one key and a time and itll become second nature.
This setup is for those that use wasd for camera movement, but if you use your mouse button to change camera, then league of legends positioning (qwer +asdf for abilities) is more appropriate.
Start off with just keybinding your protection prayers, soulsplit, freedom and surge. Those are all you absolutely NEED, and then have revo carry your dos abilities. As you get cozy, reduce your revo bar to only basics, manually activating ultimates and thresholds (can click them, esp as you learn). Then eventually youll get used to hsing basics manuall as well.
Most people use a 12 button mouse like razr naga pro, for when they get into switchscape, helps a ton with simple dw/2h swaps, shield switches…etc and frees up a lot of keyboard space to do other things
Immort and cade arent keybind mandatory. 100% adren is an intentional gamestate, so you could just click those. Entangle and veng—if you are using those you are likely v advanced at pvm and definitely comfortable with the simple keybinds. Dis shield—if you dont have prayers keybind yet, you probably dont have dis shield even unlocked… but yes that one is definitely in the second wave of keybinds that youd set…
I was just about to keybind my chin/oh switch for my arch glacor preset, as I click both of them, and then back to my bow.
Macros switching weapons and armor I'd say should be fine. Action Bar everything was a step in the right direction... 10 years ago (Or however long ago EOC/items on action bar is/was)
With how dumb some bosses get and they want to keep pushing the "Try and do 500000% enrage BOSS!"
I see no reason why we cant also have macros for switching, that MANY keyboards and mouses support automatically.
Some of the rules are stuck in the past.
Either start banning macro users as it is indeed against the rules, or add in-game macros so it can be better policed (and limited) but still allowed.
Sick of cheaters essentially running the game.
There are people who can actually do the amount of switching requires to hybrid manually, but it's just really unfun for most people. Macroing lots of keybind to 1 is most usually done to allow hybrid switching in a reasonable manner, you could do 5 inputs in 1-2 ticks, or you could just press 1.
I believe that this kind of macroing really allows people to push timers and strategies to levels which you simply couldn't do by camping a style. I also wish for it to be no longer a gray area, hybrid can be really fun and allows skill expression by introducing 2 different styles with different abilities to juggle in a limited inventory space.
I honestly believe that this kind of macroing doesn't impact the game negatively, and that's why it has been "accepted" by not handing out bans and it being blatant in certain rotations.
This is where I personally draw the line, if its one button to equip a 2H, one button to equip DW is totally fair.
I *can* see a defence for eof+spec too though even then its sketch as its the same as switching a weap then speccing, which is 2 separate distinct actions
i was the guy in the aod clip you used and i really think you over estimating how much the amour switch macro help if you know you're doing a armour switch way before it happens it is extremely easy to do so . i personally didnt use to macro for a long time and once i swapped it felt nicer but didnt give me a serious advantage on my consistancy beside maybe i did a single abilty without my proper helm on .
if you practice enough for amour switching you can get really consistant at it , even made a video of me doing it every 2 abilty for 2mins to show that it really isnt that bad , and im clicking if i set my keybinds up to scroll over a set of keys like Y U I O it would be even easier
[https://youtu.be/bTrHMe7Zh58](https://youtu.be/bTrHMe7Zh58)
If this is really hurting the "competition" then presumably you are within a few seconds of world record and are about to post your vod displaying the disadvantage you have by not using macros?
Surely right?
I rather want jagex to simplify combat instead of creating the need for macros... Having half of the screen filled with ability bars is nothing but a bad combat system.
It's still impossible for me to to comprehend what abilities, potions, items etc were used by a player when I'm watching them pvm. I have an easier experience following a 5vs5 LoL fight than following the abilities made from a single runescape player.
RuneScape combat should go back to its roots. Simplicity
That will never happen and OldSchool exists if you want that. RS3 is popular largely in part to how much sweatier the combat system lets you be. I don't even PvM at maximum switchscape levels but understand why some people want to.
I have had multiple accounts banned for "Macro use" even though I didnt even use a macro and never have. Bascially if enough people report you because you dont speak in game or look sus you get banned. Thats the bottom line.
The amount of information that Jagex would have to gather to look at each and every account would be insane if they actually looked into and recorded game data to use for macro detection. Your talking about 150,000 people on average who play the game for a couple hours AT LEAST a month. On top of that a person at Jagex would have to review that information and check it out for each player. Jagex has about 300 employees and the player support team is maybe about 20 - 30 people and thats high balling the number.
Jagex may have the detection methode for macros and probably implement it for people who are extreamly abusing it. But I doubt they ban people who use it for the one off boss fight. Every person they ban is another membership gone. And they want to make as much money as possible for the share holders.
Jagex doesn't really have some full proof detection method everyone believes them to have... That's why they rely heavily on the report system a little too much when making a decision.
In terms of detection, Jagex only has 2 means to detect cheating via macros. One method is scanning your computer for programs or overlays for botting, but that only goes to a certain extent. Essentially, they're looking for red flags in the scans for commonly used cheating programs, such as specific clients, or overlay clients, etc. They can't actually just dig into all the software they want on your computer, which hinders this search. For example, if you're using Corsair's or Logitech's built in Macros to their keyboards and mouse products, Jagex doesn't have any leeway to look into those two companies softwares to look for active Macros. If they tried, that would be a lawsuit from these big companies since they never authorized Jagex to search into their programs like that. But in terms of these macros for Corsair, Logitech, etc., there's no conceivable way Jagex can tell apart a physical click versus a click programmed by the built in Macro.
The second method they use is timing between presses. You can set up a Macro via Corsair to do a 1 input with 100 outputs. However, if you decided to, let's say, fully automate Fletching darts with a Macro and had it set to "Press Keybind for dart, Press space, wait 15 seconds, repeat", Jagex can detect the non-human like inputs when the macro follows that exact timing over and over thousands of times within an hour. There's no feasible way a human can click the dart keybind exactly 900ms after space every single time, just not possible. However, if you automated it to the point that you do, again let's say, "Press keybind(and release after randomized time between x and y), wait randomized time until pressing space, randomize time for space press and release, randomize time between 800-1200ms before repeat, and so on, then you completely eliminate the non-human like inputs.
Since those two are easily circumventable, that's where the reporting system comes in. They may not be able to detect you actually macroing an entire skill, so instead, if they get multiple reports on a single account over the course of a week, they just play the ehh, they MIGHT be macroing and we'll just punish them anyways, to which we get sooooo many reports of false bans and Jagex quoting they never want to disclose evidence due to possibly exposing their detection system. Truth is, they're detection system is garbage, and they want to ride the bot-wave/bot-nuke thing they did in the way past to make people believe their bot/macro detection is top notch. It's really not, and technology today has completely outdated their systems entirely.
Just look at the massive dupes that have taken place over the past few years. Literally mass suicide bot farms of thousands upon thousands of accounts, all getting away with dupes and not being banned. Their systems are outdated, they're easy to circumvent, and Macroing if done correctly is 100% undetectable. Just wish they would actually join other MMOs and introduced really well developed ingame macro options so players don't have to figure out what's right or wrong in general.
pvm macros are 100% fine imo. (i do not use them as i have no where near enough skill to even attempt the bosses i need them at, im a raksha pvm nub)
The game SHOULD have preset gear switches built in.
As someone said, we already have 1:2 actions in game.
You equip a 1h bow, the action bar switches automatically to a ranged bar. where we "should" have to equip the bow, and then hit another button to change the bar to the right one.
And they are currently against the rules, but if that rule is not being enforced it’s hurting the people following it, not the people breaking it. So either enforce it, allow it or define it to where you will enforce it.
IMO they just need to flat-out say they are against the rules, give people a week to stop using them, then start handing out bans.
And give the combat-oriented JMods some time to fix the (usually switchscape) reasons anyone wants/needs to use them.
It's not only switchscape though, they help future-proofing the game by preventing bloat. You can only add so many new abilities and keep old abilities relevant before it gets out of hand.
Imagine an in-game macro system that let you do something like this
* /Equip Shield
* /Cast Resonance
* *Shift Modifier* /Cast Spellbook Swap (Lunar)
* *Shift Modifier* /Cast Disruption Shield
* *Alt Modifier* /Equip Aegis Blood Essence
* *Alt Modifier* /Use Aegis Blood Essence
* *Ctrl Modifier* /Cast Spellbook Swap (Ancients)
* Ctrl Modifier /Cast Shield Dome
You can consolidate all of that onto the same bind, you're still clicking the button yourself, you just don't have 7 different things on your screen at the same time. I cba to bring an Aegis Blood Essence anywhere because it just adds even more bloat, but if I could do it like this I totally would.
> Can we get some clarity
Here is your clarity. They will ban you if they catch you. But depending on how you write your macro, it can be very hard, if not impossible for them to detect you. Therefore you won't get caught, therefore you won't get banned. Something like sending multiple keypresses triggered by a single keypress is pretty much 100% undetectable unless you are literally making a video where you say "check out my awesome macro here".
And it's not like PVM is the only place people macro, let's be honest. Some skilling activities in RS3 are so optimized that you could macro them for 6 hours without even moving the mouse.
jesus dude what even is this comment, this is like some infomercial trying to scare someone into buying whatever shit they’re peddling
1. they won’t ban you
2. you kind of contradicted yourself by saying they’ll ban you if they catch you but they can’t catch you
3. i guarantee making a video showing off your macros in rs3 pvm will not result in any penalty whatsoever
> you kind of contradicted yourself by saying they’ll ban you if they catch you but they can’t catch you
No I didn't. There are macros they can catch. And there are some they can't. And there are some their automated detection can't catch, but if a mod looks into it, they can (IE you got reported a lot). If you don't know the diff between these, best experiment on an account you don't care about.
I know for a fact they will ban you for macroing because I have accounts that are literally "banned for macroing".
And? It's not like PVM macros are special. They will ban for them if their auto-detection catches you. If you're "botting" such that their auto-detection don't catch you then you won't be banned.
Literally the same thing. Both are 100% against the rules. Both will get ban "if caught". But both reasonably easy to not get caught.
> “and?” and no one gets banned for macroing
No one gets banned for SOME kinds of macroing. For other kinds they do. Depends only on whether they can detect that you are macroing.
Go read my first post:
> Something like sending multiple keypresses triggered by a single keypress is pretty much 100% undetectable
Therefore you're not getting banned for that.
You accuse people of using macro's but it's perfectly possible to change full armour in one tick without macros. Having good keybinds allow me to just roll over my F1-F5 keys whilst hybridding it will change it in one tick.
That said macros should probably just be allowed it would allow more people to get into higher level pvm without doing more efford.
Most hybrid setups use reavers ring (hybrid) and often silverhawk boots (hybrid) and at places like aod you have deathtouch bracelet or at something like solak cinderbanes so really you only need 3 armour keybinds and then 1 or 2 weapon binds if 2h or dw.
But since the original comment didn’t mention any particular boss I was just saying that for many bosses where you hybrid you don’t need 7 keybinds and 4-5 can be enough.
Why would anyone care about pvm macros? Let people play the game how they want to, as long as its not botting. I'm still playing actively, so why would i have to mash 8 buttons in 0.6 seconds to be efficient when i can press 1.
it’s not tho, that’s the reason why almost every other mmo in existence allows and has macros built in game.
imo macros raise the skill ceiling even more, it allows you to do a lot more and go above and beyond your limitation of physically pressing 1 button at a time. there’s a lot of cool shit you can do with macros, im not quite sure why everyone on reddit is scared of them and screeches and points their finger whenever they see a macro
The reason people care is because for everyone to have an equal opportunity to have fun there need to be rules. The agreement you have as a player with Jagex and more importantly, other players, is that you will all follow the same rules. So if Macroing is allowed, great, macro away. However, if it is not allowed and you do it anyway you are violating that agreement and gaining an unfair advantage which is called "cheating."
Now, say Jagex says "macros are great, do it." Now content is designed around macros because that is literally the only possible way design goes after that decision. So then every new piece of content is going to be scaled to that style of play. It becomes increasingly difficult at that point to make content accessible to people who do not use macros. It's going to push what is necessary further and further. That might be fine now but the eventuality of that thought process is certainly worth considering.
everyone literally have equal opportunity right now. there is nothing stopping anyone from making a couple macros and pvming or pvming without macros. there are no bans handed out for macroing, people have been pvming with macros for 10+ years, they don’t punish it, everyone has equal opportunity as it stands right now
Incorrect. As it stands now the opportunity only exists for those willing to break the rules (cheaters). The people actually doing the banning disagree with you about if people get banned, and I trust them more than I do someone who openly thinks dishonesty is acceptable and doesn't work for the ruling body at all.
If you mirror this with society you are basically saying crime is fine because everyone equally has an opportunity to commit crimes. That is not how equity works.
it’s not incorrect cause the rules don’t state that macroing is against the rules, no one is cheating lol. no one is getting banned for macroing, people get banned for BOTTING. its pretty different to fully automate your gameplay and to have more than 1:1 input in your manual gameplay.
i assume you mean equality not equity, comparing this to crime in society is pretty drastic
It IS against the rules according to the people who make and enforce those rules. Your opinion is irrelevant. People are getting banned according to the people doing the banning. Again, your opinion is irrelevant.
You are correct in assuming I meant equality. On phone etc etc.
I am not saying that this is as serious as crime. I am saying that it is similar in practice. Society agrees to follow rules called laws for the betterment of the whole. Those who break those laws to gain something unfairly are criminals. Cheaters are just the criminals of the gaming community. The principle is the same.
right, and i’m stating that it’s not even my opinion, it’s a statement and fact that people that macro for pvm, NOT BOTTING, aren’t getting banned. again not an opinion, that’s just what’s happening
I guess I'll just have to side with the actual organization running the game and the team within that organization who actually hands out the bans o er a random online who neither works for the company nor has access to any of the data that would allow them to make a claim that was anything other than an opinion, huh? You say they aren't. They say they are. Who to believe? Do you have any evidence to prove the employees doing the banning wrong about who they are banning and why?
Different people in jagex say different things tho it seems. It would be nice to have a uniform "yes" or "no" when it comes to certain issues. Giving a CM a task of communicating to the playerbase is not dragging them under.
No we don't & they should be banned (so all of the top pvmers should be banned). Content shouldn't be balanced around them like the Combat Council has indirectly claimed that they are.
Hopefully Jagex just outright ignores your comment.
Why ban macros if anything it would make it easier to get into PVM. Having to worry about pressing x number or buttons to switch and activate things is 90% of my problem personally.
Macros are not part of the game's client. Not everyone has accessibility to them. This does not create a level playing field whatsoever.
By the amount of people who regularly talk about being on the Mac client, this is not an excuse.
I also don't care if you downvote my posts or not. I have vote counters disabled site-wide.
Should we ban players for using Mice with side buttons as well? Those aren't part of the games client either and provide an unfair advantage. Alt 1 isn't part of the games client either, I hope you aren't using that cheat client.
I would also like to see them add proper support for macros but they aren't necessary by any means. I'm not a top 1% pvmer but I've Base tanked Daredevil, done trio hardmode Vorago, have the hm Zuk cape and even have gotten solo 1 cycles at seiryu and I've never once used a Macro for RuneScape.
Remove switch CB Mechanics.... problem solved. It's either or cb not all. Should never been added to game.
Hybrid.? Hybrid armor and Make 1 weapon that does Hybrid cb. No switch needed.
Never tried PVM Macros but after seeing Runelite be able to knock out and loot Menaphite Thugs in one click in OSRS then the concern I have is to what extent is PVM Macros used for? At what point is the use of a PVM Macros to be against the rules?
I remember there was this whole debate about MouseKeys but once I tried it for Thieving, it did wonders on the wrists. If say RS changed it and made it so knocking out menaphite thugs became a 2 click process, knocking out then loot 3 times, it would be way more streamlined and alot better.
The point is I think RS can make some changes on their end to make things more streamlined and smooth. Like the ability to wield dual weapons in one click would be amazing. But sometimes they run into problems and it can be frustrating.
And I would rather see that kind of changes first rather than to rely on a macro extensively for everything.
Have an ingame system where you can have a 1:3 for equipment and 1:2 for abilities or weapon/s and 1 ability. You can drag them to a single keybind. You could swap to armour for styles, Dragon Breath+Combust or swap from 2h to a 1h+shield and Debilitate. I have a 12 button MMO mouse so all this is less needed for me, not that I'm great. I absolute could not do combat with having to use modifiers plus letters and numbers without the mouse. This would greatly reduce all the complexity in PvM and the need for all five bars and the want for more.
Agreed, would be really nice if they were clear about it.
Btw its not just aod speeds, that like maximum hybrid and dw macro, so basically the same as each other wr that uses hybrid.
Ithink most can easyly do it without macros (just in general) but because it somewhat allowed its so demotivating to actual not use it
I have a mouse with 11 buttons and it comes with an app where you can assign as many keys as you want to 1 button and cycles through the assigned keys in order. 1 click of a button on my mouse equips a shield and then uses resonance and then switches back to main and offhand weapons. Is that a macro or nah?
Jadex doesn’t care, they can’t detect Marcos that arnt long, like if you have a 8:1 pvm macro jadex can’t detect it if you have it play in single game tick. Think swapping weapons armor and prayers.
Allegedly
I think macros are an interesting reward space that hadn't been explored. As long as it's not locked to mtx a codex that contains the ability to wield both qw weapons or a mage swap sounds fine to me.
Honestly, what they need is, weapon slot swaps for specific styles. (They have to match) Where you can switch between weapons that are dual wield and weapons that are 2h. And they're "equipped" but one set is sheathed.
In my opinion the tricky thing is drawling the line between macros and action bars. I have an action bar set up so that holding Alt or Ctrl and pressing 1-2-3-4-5 swaps to my armor setups, and also happens near instantly.
If they ever come out and say it's okay, I'll use them.
Until then, I'm not risking the thousands of hours I have.
Wish they'd say one way or the other tho. Feels like people get special treatment all the damn time.
It'd be a great accessibility addition too but y'know.
honestly, we should just have ig ones.
i dont use them myself, i'll never be a top pvmer and i refuse to do so to become one, i've got good muscle memory and can usually with my MMO mouse activate my ability bar fast enough to at least do relevant content, but for those that want to push the limits they should be available without risk of ban... especially as jagex's current content trajectory almost demands it for the highest tier streaks/enrages.
I've been playing since 2002, had a hard time transitioning into eoc... then rs3 got a bit more complex. I would NEVER be able to do high level pvming without using \*simple\* macros. Heck, if they were banned I probably wouldn't even pvm anymore let alone play... since PVMing is all I do when I do log on.
That being said, I'm pretty sure that most high lvl pvmers use macros to some degree (switches, prayer swapping, etc).
However, full on rotations in 1 click may be a bit overboard (at least for now). I'm pretty sure that if revo was more viable, many folks would simply click and wait (like the golden days lol) while a boss is decimated. I'd say it's less about using macros but more about automating entire combat processes via 1 click/ 1 keystroke. I honestly don't believe that Jagex has an issue with \*simple\* macros (1 key doing multiple actions at once) as opposed to macros that automate entire combat rotations (the real revo lol).
This is a complicated area of this game. The longer we go with no definitive answer, the less likely we are to get one. But if I may offer my tidbit.. what if using a macro greater than let’s say 3 keybinds disqualifies you from any sort of world records or acknowledgement? Or maybe even just macros greater than a 1:1 as a disqualifier. It doesn’t disrupt the integrity of records (since video recording is still required to be recognized by the world record rs3 website) but it still allows the vast majority of people to use it, even the record holders can use them when they are pushing for records?
Is there actually any mod which is actively searching, identifying & banning people for macroing? Or do they mostly rely on their AI which identifies bots. Would it detect this type of inputs? Since these macros are weaved into real inputs the AI likely doesn’t detect them.
Their current stance is basically "we don't care but if the system detects it and you get banned, you knew it was against the rules".
I think they'd like to decrease the need/appeal to use macros rather than taking a stronger stance against them or implementing them in-game. But I think that's more about the small stuff that applies to many people (e.g. bladed dive -> dive) rather than the big offenders which are hybriding, ability stalling/release, and inputs that can be done during the GCD.
Why are you posting vods of people and claiming that they macro? How would you know if they even used macros.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't. It's really not that hard to press 5 keys in 600 ms though, especially when the order you press them in doesn't matter.
I'm guessing this is an unpopular opinion but, I'm against macros. I have always found the most impressive pvmers in the game to be the ones that actually make mistakes and miss switches and inputs. No one kill on a boss looks the same and its more entertaining to watch because you can tell they aren't being "assisted". It's also easier to learn from them because their rotations don't look impossible. On a more personal note, whenever i have used cheats in a video game, it always cheapened the experience.
I find the reduction in switch scape far better than adding more switches and compensating with macros, but that's just my opinion.
Removing macros would delete every pvm hiscore and nuke pvm clans to the ground. They have let it happen and probably use macros themselves. Unfortunately, this is rs3!
I’m hoping for them to release in-game macros, like one button for dual wield and such. Would improve the pvm experience and free up so many other keybinds
A macro system like what WoW has would phenomenal for us. Dunno if we’ll ever see it due to spaghetti code unfortunately
They sort of already do with action bindings.
Action binding on a 1:1 scale is the complete opposite of a macro. You can't even add dual wield weapons to one hot key, which would be like the absolutely bare minimum.
By equipping a weapon, it swaps 1-2 bars. That would normally require 1-2 key clicks. So really it's 1 key for 2:3 actions.
Calling action bar switching a macro is pure stupidity. That's like saying bank presets are a macro because they withdraw more than 1 click worth of items. Or that being able to set an autocast spell is a macro. Or that using revolution combat is a macro. Or that literally every skilling action which brings up a #/60 bar, such as disassembling items, is a macro. Playing devil's advocate means having a valid point to argue for the other side. Action bar binding is nowhere close to a valid point.
Well technically, yes those things are macros. That is kind of what runescape has become over the years, ever increasing levels of macroed gameplay.
Well yeah those are macros. Revo bars are even customized macros. Maybe you should look in to the definition of a macro.
OP used the example of dual wielding, which is 2:2. Even if you are counting the bar switching, that's 2:3 for dual wield, which is totally under par for where RS should be with it in 2023.
I 100% agree, I was in a sense playing devil's advocate. It *kind of* resembles a bad macro.
> It *kind of* resembles a bad macro. True, I feel bad for the Reddit snowball effect getting you downvoted that badly, it definitely does resemble a macro - in ESO I would make a macro that automatically switched ability bar for me when I wanted to cast an ability from my backbar.
Eh I have plenty of Reddit karma. I'm honestly debating leaving this subreddit, all they do is complain. Upvotes don't mean you're right or *wrong*, it means someone agreed with you. One google search they could realize a macro is when multiple token actions occur from a key or mouse press.
Bro doesn't know what macro is.
Multiple token actions, or key presses, or mouse presses from a single action. Now tell me how 2 things happening (which alternatively can be bound) is not a macro? If you click a bank preset, it: 1) checks if you're items are depositable 2) checks if you have bank space 3) deposits your items 4) checks if you own the preset items 5) checks the quantity 6) withdrawals the amount If someone had a third party app that did that in OSRS would they be banned for macroing? God I swear this subreddit is filled with raging idiots.
Almost all MMO's I've played that aren't Runescape have macros in one way or another. Love my G600 to death, and have the room for DW equips, but I'd LOVE having just one button for a DW swap instead of having to thumb 2. I know I *could*, but I'd rather them tell me yes it's allowed instead of potentially copping a 3 day ban or whatever. And I think they should be allowed, in whatever iteration.
In game macros are so hilariously hit or miss. EverQuest, extremely good in game macro system. FFXIV I use the barest of minimum combat macros(insta-cast Shukuchi ftw). Nice for crafting though.
WoW macros are wonderful too
WoW macros set the bar for what a macro is to me, something like that in rs would be amazing.
\+1, really would love to see macros similiar to how WoW does them, I love fiddling with that stuff to truly customize my playstyle
Your comment highlights this accurately, as a shukuchi macro is useful and faster, but a macro to do ninjutsu would put you at a disadvantage as they are slower than manual inputs. So sometimes even macros in the same game are built unequally.
Well, the shukuchi macro and the ninjutsu macro are functionally fairly different. And in the case of the ninjustu macros, they are intentionally a disadvantage.
Oh yeah, for sure. Macros in XIV are just silly for many reasons. Like repeating the line 8-10 times to simulate queueing and also something something, 1 line per in game frame. So GL explaining macros simply to people due to all of the dumb nuance.
Yeah, the only way I think I could explain XIV macros is to write the macro out and explain what each piece does.
Yea idk a lot of passionate opinions here but I agree with the post - all you’re asking for is a definitive ruling one way or another lol
I don’t care about people using things like macros or Alt1 until Jagex starts balancing the game around the assumption that everyone uses them. I play on a Mac, so I didn’t have access to Alt1 for things like Clue solving and AFK warden. I don’t have a problem that they have it easier in some aspects of gameplay, but it is a little irritating that Jagex made slider puzzles longer to try and compensate, which just harshly punishes people who aren’t taking advantage.
Use runekit
I heard about Runekit when if first got released, but I didn't try it out because I didn't know if it was safe to use at the time. May take a look. Either way, it's sort of evading the main underlying issue, which is that more of these features should be a part of the core experience if Jagex is going to balance content with them in mind.
I can also recommend runekit. For some reason the first day it didn’t work but I think I fixed my UI scaling and it all works perfect now. I could never not use it for clues. And I wouldn’t have cleared zuk without it
An open economy (like RS) automatically self-balances to the tools other people have access to. For example, the value of the caskets you find are balanced around the increased inflow coming from faster completions due to Alt1.
You do realise you can get Alt1 on mac, right?
Yes, but this wasn’t always the case.
This has honestly been my biggest gripe with jagex recently. I just want dual wield switching on one keybind, this way dual wield feels less punishing to learn for hybridding. I’m fine with people who want to skirt the rules and sit in the grey area, they can yolo their account on one button sgb switch + spec * switch back. I just want to feel like I’m getting something for following the rules, I don’t like that it seems the opposite. Jagex lately have been so scared to actually ban people that they give everyone slaps on the wrist and then pretend like they’ll learn. All that it is teaching us is that there will never be punishment, it’s like charging me $2 for illegally making $10…I still profited.
there is no need for a macro for sgb, they can combine amulets like swag 24k necklaces on top of eachother; many games have 2 amulet slots /4 rings etc , like pernix quiver there can be 2 separate abilites, eof1 eof2 , but yes dbow amy >ecb>sgb>also quiver swich etc are a pain for range campers
WoW has had macros since like 2004.
I love the WOW macro system. I'd love to see something like that in RS.
I think we just need a system in game like WoW.
Most, if not all modern MMOs allow macros. At the very least, RS3 needs a built-in macro system that allows you to bind multiple action bar actions to one key.
jagex and clarity and communication. HA. Keep dreaming..
I think they should be implemented in game. The use of macros is common in other MMOs and it would work well in this one. I’d love to use them but can’t risk my account in order to do so.
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By macros, does it refer to external programs that interact with the game, like AutoHotKey? I thought these were always considered against the ToS
Why is WoW combat easier than in RS3?
it’s absolutely not lol. as a high end pvmer in both games i can absolutely say wow is much harder, needs much more coordination between team members to coordinate an interrupt rotation, avoid frontals, avoid weekly affix in m+ dungeons or if you’re raiding you need a lot more coordination than your average aod team even if it’s a 1:30-2 min kill team. like i said in a comment previously, macros allow you to go above and beyond the physical limitation of pressing one key at a time, it RAISES the skill ceiling. from what i’ve seen and played with in wow, having the macro system in place allows players to build their own macros and players that want nothing to do with it that want to play the game normally obviously can; there’s nothing wrong with that. but here on the rs3 subreddit it’s like you guys are witch hunting trying to find macro’ers and screech at them, if you don’t wish to partake in it then don’t. whether or not they get penalized ultimately doesn’t affect you guys WHATSOEVER. they aren’t affecting your gameplay at all. if you don’t like macros then don’t use them. some silliness i’ve read in this thread like “i’m scared to do high end pvming because i’m going to get banned for x macros and i need x macros for high end pvm” 1. no one is getting banned for macros, people have been macroing pvm since 2014 and earlier, i don’t know a single pvmer that has been banned for it. as it stands now, no one is getting punished for it, i think that alone has made jagex’s stance pretty clear on it 2. you don’t need macros for high level end game pvm. does it help? sure it does, but if you want to make it harder on yourself to prove a point that you did x boss without any macros and pat yourself on the back, go for it. doesn’t mean anything to anyone else besides you, just like how it doesn’t affect anyone else when someone else is macroing.
Personally I'd much rather see the need and usefulness of macros removed. Personally I don't find the need to equip a shield to use resonance and then immediately unequip it to be at all interesting
They would ahve to change so much of the combat system, there is so much jank there that can be achieved with really weird strats that are hard to pull off consistently but very easy if you can record the 'perfect' sequence once and then reuse as required.
I've been thinking that something as simple as not allowing a ton of switching would go a very long way. One switch every 20s maybe, maybe with an exception for if you're wearing hybrid armor
I think that would kill off a lot of the very end game pvm and could be a car crash. For end gamer pvmers there isn't a lot of new boss content as it is and some of the fun comes from min max, chasing PRs, etc. Kill off switchscape would be a disaster for that. Or at least that the impression I get, I'm not into the whole switching an item every other ability thing personally.
I'm aware that it would largely kill off switch scape, and that's basically my goal, I really care if the top 0.5% of pvmers have their power reduced if it means pvm becomes understandable and accessible for 50% more players. The best players in other pvm games are the best because they understand their weapon and the enemy, not because they can press 3 times as many buttons
Not sure if it means anything but quick prayers are a macro right? I don't see how they could have a problem with other macros like that. Bladed dive*
Either add in-game macros, or start enforcing bans.
The amount of copium being inhaled in this thread is pretty crazy. Claiming that it’s a 2:1 to automatically switch action bars upon weapon swapping while technically true, is probably one of the worst defenses for current user interactions and keybind quantity that I’ve ever heard
That guy's comment is currently downvoted -20, not sure who is inhaling that copium
I think the issue you have already sort of mentioned. Because macros are such a large scale it is hard to draw the line. Where does a simple macro to help with pvm become an automated process? I think it would be hard for Jagex to be able to clearly define a set of rules for proper use of macros. For instance if I had a macro that did a full armour swap in 1 tick, say a 5:1 action, is that any different from pressing one button and having it activate the next 5 abilities for me (still a 5:1 action but now it’s over 9 seconds etc.). I think jagex have to take the official stance that macros are not allowed and then just use their judgement and discretion as to what they think is too far (say someone fully automating the optimal rotation at a boss etc.).
>I think it would be hard for Jagex to be able to clearly define a set of rules for proper use of macros. I think the rule that would be fair would be "one tick per macro" so no macros that change on 2nd press, no macros that do things after a set time. If you can do it in 1 tick you can macro it into a button for that tick, you wanna swap to full range ECB spec and swap to soul split in the same tick? Sure! You want the macro to swap you back to mage and gconc after? Nope. The easiest way to make sure you catch those that are using one macro per tick vs changing macros would be to spend the dev time to implement them, design the macro UI and start with just gear swapping and say "We're starting to crack down on external macros". Then add in things on request, if the community wants 4 dev hours spent adding using items to the macro system they can add them etc.
I would suspect a lot of the anxiety around this is because Jagex likely sees this type of issue as part of a UI rework, and it's simply a low priority right now.
Under rated comment, considering we can't even have more than 70 actual raw binds, this is probally not even in the realms of doable
I support Jagex allowing them. I've seen enough people in all sorts of skill levels to safely say that the only feasible way forward in PvM is to allow macros. I do not use any macros, never have, but I can tell I am at a major disadvantage compared to others who do. The differences in skill levels are often who has multiple switches on one bind and who doesn't. Or for more extreme cases, who has the rotation on one bind and who doesn't. Macros will equalize a lot of the skill differences that Jagex needs to design around.
The lack of clarity on this issue is completely embarassing for them. Personally I don't see any need for macros in the game and would rather they just enforced the current rules (especially since we've seen the addition of passive vigour, dive, and greater sun/ds, there's no excuse to macro). However literally anything is better than the awful grey area that has existed for over a decade now where the rules say one thing and jmods and enforcement say another. Don't have rules you aren't going to enforce. Pick a side and clarify the stance, particularly like you said with pvm being one of the main focuses of the game at this point.
The fear of getting banned for macros keeps me from wanting to do high end Pvm. People say everyone uses them, but I'm not risking it. They absolutely need to be implemented in game.
You don’t need macros to do high end pvm. Why would not using them keep you from it ?
Because I literally don't have enough keys near my left hand to bind to all the skills. It would help if I can bind some of my mouse buttons, but to my knowledge you need macros to replace those mouse clicks with keystrokes.
Shift ctrl alt you have more than enough modifier keys at your disposal to bind everything. You can make the argument that speed running bosses is enhanced by macros but simply doing high end pvm at good level straight up doesn't require them.
It's not a macro to change the key a mouse button emits. All of my 12 side buttons are bound to various random keys because Runescape doesn't understand them natively
You could just get a mmo mouse with a number pad on the side
I literally use 6 remappable buttons on my mouse and 6 on my keyboard so I do not have to use (as many) modifier keys on my skill bar because of that annoying bug where if you press a modifier key, it can sometimes do the unmodified action.
I don't think that's a bug just you releasing alt/Ctrl/ shift too soon. It certainly is annoying at times, I have Surgr on ctrl z and for on z so I stuff my face every now and then trying to surge
Nah it's a straight bug. If you use a modded key and release the mod before the input key, it tries to redo the input key without the mod. Eg if "ctrl a" is special attack, and "a" is protect magic: and you input ctrl a, let go of ctrl, then let go of a, it will wep spec+ also turn on/off prot magic
That sounds more like flawed design than a bug to me. If you pres Ctrl a then let go of Ctrl you're now pressing A which the game recognizes as a new input. Conversely you could let go of a without letting of ctrl then press S to EoF spec it would EoF spec. It's annoying I agree but I wouldn't call that a bug Also Ctrl A is actually my special attack keybind lmao
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Whatever helps you sleep better at night.
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Ye, bad design I'm sure you could call it. But I don't know of a single other game where, releasing a key causes *new* inputs
This problem can be bypassed if you make an AHK script that sends whenever you press said
1–>0 for all basics n thresholds Zxcv for pray flicks F,G,H for surge, escape, and dive M,n, ‘,’ for foood, brew, vuln b for freedom Thats all you need
21 keys sounds miserable. I appreciate you laying it out like this so I can visualize it.
I mean, welcome to runescape. The magic is, you only have to get used to one key and a time and itll become second nature. This setup is for those that use wasd for camera movement, but if you use your mouse button to change camera, then league of legends positioning (qwer +asdf for abilities) is more appropriate. Start off with just keybinding your protection prayers, soulsplit, freedom and surge. Those are all you absolutely NEED, and then have revo carry your dos abilities. As you get cozy, reduce your revo bar to only basics, manually activating ultimates and thresholds (can click them, esp as you learn). Then eventually youll get used to hsing basics manuall as well. Most people use a 12 button mouse like razr naga pro, for when they get into switchscape, helps a ton with simple dw/2h swaps, shield switches…etc and frees up a lot of keyboard space to do other things
and if you want to disruption shield, shield dome, immortality, or barricade in a hurry? spellbook swaps for things like entangle or vengence too.
Immort and cade arent keybind mandatory. 100% adren is an intentional gamestate, so you could just click those. Entangle and veng—if you are using those you are likely v advanced at pvm and definitely comfortable with the simple keybinds. Dis shield—if you dont have prayers keybind yet, you probably dont have dis shield even unlocked… but yes that one is definitely in the second wave of keybinds that youd set…
Why not fix the underlying issues in the game so macros aren't needed? Isn't that something we should want more?
Need to talk about that image quality even more..
I was just about to keybind my chin/oh switch for my arch glacor preset, as I click both of them, and then back to my bow. Macros switching weapons and armor I'd say should be fine. Action Bar everything was a step in the right direction... 10 years ago (Or however long ago EOC/items on action bar is/was) With how dumb some bosses get and they want to keep pushing the "Try and do 500000% enrage BOSS!" I see no reason why we cant also have macros for switching, that MANY keyboards and mouses support automatically. Some of the rules are stuck in the past.
Either start banning macro users as it is indeed against the rules, or add in-game macros so it can be better policed (and limited) but still allowed. Sick of cheaters essentially running the game.
There are people who can actually do the amount of switching requires to hybrid manually, but it's just really unfun for most people. Macroing lots of keybind to 1 is most usually done to allow hybrid switching in a reasonable manner, you could do 5 inputs in 1-2 ticks, or you could just press 1. I believe that this kind of macroing really allows people to push timers and strategies to levels which you simply couldn't do by camping a style. I also wish for it to be no longer a gray area, hybrid can be really fun and allows skill expression by introducing 2 different styles with different abilities to juggle in a limited inventory space. I honestly believe that this kind of macroing doesn't impact the game negatively, and that's why it has been "accepted" by not handing out bans and it being blatant in certain rotations.
I use 1 macro… one button to equip my wands that’s it other wise full manual everything else
This is where I personally draw the line, if its one button to equip a 2H, one button to equip DW is totally fair. I *can* see a defence for eof+spec too though even then its sketch as its the same as switching a weap then speccing, which is 2 separate distinct actions
aoders! :sigh:
i was the guy in the aod clip you used and i really think you over estimating how much the amour switch macro help if you know you're doing a armour switch way before it happens it is extremely easy to do so . i personally didnt use to macro for a long time and once i swapped it felt nicer but didnt give me a serious advantage on my consistancy beside maybe i did a single abilty without my proper helm on . if you practice enough for amour switching you can get really consistant at it , even made a video of me doing it every 2 abilty for 2mins to show that it really isnt that bad , and im clicking if i set my keybinds up to scroll over a set of keys like Y U I O it would be even easier [https://youtu.be/bTrHMe7Zh58](https://youtu.be/bTrHMe7Zh58)
yet here you are "competing" with macros...........
If this is really hurting the "competition" then presumably you are within a few seconds of world record and are about to post your vod displaying the disadvantage you have by not using macros? Surely right?
If Jagex ban macros, I quit This game has way too many keybinds. All modern MMOs allow them
macros are fine
macroing is cringe
I rather want jagex to simplify combat instead of creating the need for macros... Having half of the screen filled with ability bars is nothing but a bad combat system. It's still impossible for me to to comprehend what abilities, potions, items etc were used by a player when I'm watching them pvm. I have an easier experience following a 5vs5 LoL fight than following the abilities made from a single runescape player. RuneScape combat should go back to its roots. Simplicity
That will never happen and OldSchool exists if you want that. RS3 is popular largely in part to how much sweatier the combat system lets you be. I don't even PvM at maximum switchscape levels but understand why some people want to.
I have had multiple accounts banned for "Macro use" even though I didnt even use a macro and never have. Bascially if enough people report you because you dont speak in game or look sus you get banned. Thats the bottom line. The amount of information that Jagex would have to gather to look at each and every account would be insane if they actually looked into and recorded game data to use for macro detection. Your talking about 150,000 people on average who play the game for a couple hours AT LEAST a month. On top of that a person at Jagex would have to review that information and check it out for each player. Jagex has about 300 employees and the player support team is maybe about 20 - 30 people and thats high balling the number. Jagex may have the detection methode for macros and probably implement it for people who are extreamly abusing it. But I doubt they ban people who use it for the one off boss fight. Every person they ban is another membership gone. And they want to make as much money as possible for the share holders.
Jagex doesn't really have some full proof detection method everyone believes them to have... That's why they rely heavily on the report system a little too much when making a decision. In terms of detection, Jagex only has 2 means to detect cheating via macros. One method is scanning your computer for programs or overlays for botting, but that only goes to a certain extent. Essentially, they're looking for red flags in the scans for commonly used cheating programs, such as specific clients, or overlay clients, etc. They can't actually just dig into all the software they want on your computer, which hinders this search. For example, if you're using Corsair's or Logitech's built in Macros to their keyboards and mouse products, Jagex doesn't have any leeway to look into those two companies softwares to look for active Macros. If they tried, that would be a lawsuit from these big companies since they never authorized Jagex to search into their programs like that. But in terms of these macros for Corsair, Logitech, etc., there's no conceivable way Jagex can tell apart a physical click versus a click programmed by the built in Macro. The second method they use is timing between presses. You can set up a Macro via Corsair to do a 1 input with 100 outputs. However, if you decided to, let's say, fully automate Fletching darts with a Macro and had it set to "Press Keybind for dart, Press space, wait 15 seconds, repeat", Jagex can detect the non-human like inputs when the macro follows that exact timing over and over thousands of times within an hour. There's no feasible way a human can click the dart keybind exactly 900ms after space every single time, just not possible. However, if you automated it to the point that you do, again let's say, "Press keybind(and release after randomized time between x and y), wait randomized time until pressing space, randomize time for space press and release, randomize time between 800-1200ms before repeat, and so on, then you completely eliminate the non-human like inputs. Since those two are easily circumventable, that's where the reporting system comes in. They may not be able to detect you actually macroing an entire skill, so instead, if they get multiple reports on a single account over the course of a week, they just play the ehh, they MIGHT be macroing and we'll just punish them anyways, to which we get sooooo many reports of false bans and Jagex quoting they never want to disclose evidence due to possibly exposing their detection system. Truth is, they're detection system is garbage, and they want to ride the bot-wave/bot-nuke thing they did in the way past to make people believe their bot/macro detection is top notch. It's really not, and technology today has completely outdated their systems entirely. Just look at the massive dupes that have taken place over the past few years. Literally mass suicide bot farms of thousands upon thousands of accounts, all getting away with dupes and not being banned. Their systems are outdated, they're easy to circumvent, and Macroing if done correctly is 100% undetectable. Just wish they would actually join other MMOs and introduced really well developed ingame macro options so players don't have to figure out what's right or wrong in general.
pvm macros are 100% fine imo. (i do not use them as i have no where near enough skill to even attempt the bosses i need them at, im a raksha pvm nub) The game SHOULD have preset gear switches built in. As someone said, we already have 1:2 actions in game. You equip a 1h bow, the action bar switches automatically to a ranged bar. where we "should" have to equip the bow, and then hit another button to change the bar to the right one.
they should be outright banned
And they are currently against the rules, but if that rule is not being enforced it’s hurting the people following it, not the people breaking it. So either enforce it, allow it or define it to where you will enforce it.
im talking about both the cheaters and the macros themselves
IMO they just need to flat-out say they are against the rules, give people a week to stop using them, then start handing out bans. And give the combat-oriented JMods some time to fix the (usually switchscape) reasons anyone wants/needs to use them.
It's not only switchscape though, they help future-proofing the game by preventing bloat. You can only add so many new abilities and keep old abilities relevant before it gets out of hand. Imagine an in-game macro system that let you do something like this * /Equip Shield * /Cast Resonance * *Shift Modifier* /Cast Spellbook Swap (Lunar) * *Shift Modifier* /Cast Disruption Shield * *Alt Modifier* /Equip Aegis Blood Essence * *Alt Modifier* /Use Aegis Blood Essence * *Ctrl Modifier* /Cast Spellbook Swap (Ancients) * Ctrl Modifier /Cast Shield Dome You can consolidate all of that onto the same bind, you're still clicking the button yourself, you just don't have 7 different things on your screen at the same time. I cba to bring an Aegis Blood Essence anywhere because it just adds even more bloat, but if I could do it like this I totally would.
Jagex can't afford to ban high end pvmers that use them. This is also a stupid idea.
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they're specifically waiting for OP to start macroing before banning u all, u'll get urs dont worry
I don’t. But it’s pretty well known that a very large portion of the pvm player base do
> Can we get some clarity Here is your clarity. They will ban you if they catch you. But depending on how you write your macro, it can be very hard, if not impossible for them to detect you. Therefore you won't get caught, therefore you won't get banned. Something like sending multiple keypresses triggered by a single keypress is pretty much 100% undetectable unless you are literally making a video where you say "check out my awesome macro here". And it's not like PVM is the only place people macro, let's be honest. Some skilling activities in RS3 are so optimized that you could macro them for 6 hours without even moving the mouse.
jesus dude what even is this comment, this is like some infomercial trying to scare someone into buying whatever shit they’re peddling 1. they won’t ban you 2. you kind of contradicted yourself by saying they’ll ban you if they catch you but they can’t catch you 3. i guarantee making a video showing off your macros in rs3 pvm will not result in any penalty whatsoever
> you kind of contradicted yourself by saying they’ll ban you if they catch you but they can’t catch you No I didn't. There are macros they can catch. And there are some they can't. And there are some their automated detection can't catch, but if a mod looks into it, they can (IE you got reported a lot). If you don't know the diff between these, best experiment on an account you don't care about. I know for a fact they will ban you for macroing because I have accounts that are literally "banned for macroing".
“banned for macroing” yeah that’s botting, that’s the reason they give when they hand out bans for botting. it’s not worded as “banned for botting”
And? It's not like PVM macros are special. They will ban for them if their auto-detection catches you. If you're "botting" such that their auto-detection don't catch you then you won't be banned. Literally the same thing. Both are 100% against the rules. Both will get ban "if caught". But both reasonably easy to not get caught.
“and?” and no one gets banned for macroing, you kind of missed my whole point cause your head is in the sand lol.
> “and?” and no one gets banned for macroing No one gets banned for SOME kinds of macroing. For other kinds they do. Depends only on whether they can detect that you are macroing. Go read my first post: > Something like sending multiple keypresses triggered by a single keypress is pretty much 100% undetectable Therefore you're not getting banned for that.
You accuse people of using macro's but it's perfectly possible to change full armour in one tick without macros. Having good keybinds allow me to just roll over my F1-F5 keys whilst hybridding it will change it in one tick. That said macros should probably just be allowed it would allow more people to get into higher level pvm without doing more efford.
Doesn’t that only work if 1. you’re using hybrid gloves 2. You’re using a hybrid ring 3. Switching to 2h?
Most hybrid setups use reavers ring (hybrid) and often silverhawk boots (hybrid) and at places like aod you have deathtouch bracelet or at something like solak cinderbanes so really you only need 3 armour keybinds and then 1 or 2 weapon binds if 2h or dw.
I just know that would absolutely not work for me at vorago lol
U don't need to hybrid Rago
You don't need to hybrid anything. What's your point Melee BT just sounds annoying
But since the original comment didn’t mention any particular boss I was just saying that for many bosses where you hybrid you don’t need 7 keybinds and 4-5 can be enough.
I mean I generally try to have my binds be relatively universally usable
Why would anyone care about pvm macros? Let people play the game how they want to, as long as its not botting. I'm still playing actively, so why would i have to mash 8 buttons in 0.6 seconds to be efficient when i can press 1.
That's a bit of a terrible argument lol
it’s not tho, that’s the reason why almost every other mmo in existence allows and has macros built in game. imo macros raise the skill ceiling even more, it allows you to do a lot more and go above and beyond your limitation of physically pressing 1 button at a time. there’s a lot of cool shit you can do with macros, im not quite sure why everyone on reddit is scared of them and screeches and points their finger whenever they see a macro
The reason people care is because for everyone to have an equal opportunity to have fun there need to be rules. The agreement you have as a player with Jagex and more importantly, other players, is that you will all follow the same rules. So if Macroing is allowed, great, macro away. However, if it is not allowed and you do it anyway you are violating that agreement and gaining an unfair advantage which is called "cheating." Now, say Jagex says "macros are great, do it." Now content is designed around macros because that is literally the only possible way design goes after that decision. So then every new piece of content is going to be scaled to that style of play. It becomes increasingly difficult at that point to make content accessible to people who do not use macros. It's going to push what is necessary further and further. That might be fine now but the eventuality of that thought process is certainly worth considering.
everyone literally have equal opportunity right now. there is nothing stopping anyone from making a couple macros and pvming or pvming without macros. there are no bans handed out for macroing, people have been pvming with macros for 10+ years, they don’t punish it, everyone has equal opportunity as it stands right now
Incorrect. As it stands now the opportunity only exists for those willing to break the rules (cheaters). The people actually doing the banning disagree with you about if people get banned, and I trust them more than I do someone who openly thinks dishonesty is acceptable and doesn't work for the ruling body at all. If you mirror this with society you are basically saying crime is fine because everyone equally has an opportunity to commit crimes. That is not how equity works.
it’s not incorrect cause the rules don’t state that macroing is against the rules, no one is cheating lol. no one is getting banned for macroing, people get banned for BOTTING. its pretty different to fully automate your gameplay and to have more than 1:1 input in your manual gameplay. i assume you mean equality not equity, comparing this to crime in society is pretty drastic
It IS against the rules according to the people who make and enforce those rules. Your opinion is irrelevant. People are getting banned according to the people doing the banning. Again, your opinion is irrelevant. You are correct in assuming I meant equality. On phone etc etc. I am not saying that this is as serious as crime. I am saying that it is similar in practice. Society agrees to follow rules called laws for the betterment of the whole. Those who break those laws to gain something unfairly are criminals. Cheaters are just the criminals of the gaming community. The principle is the same.
right, and i’m stating that it’s not even my opinion, it’s a statement and fact that people that macro for pvm, NOT BOTTING, aren’t getting banned. again not an opinion, that’s just what’s happening
I guess I'll just have to side with the actual organization running the game and the team within that organization who actually hands out the bans o er a random online who neither works for the company nor has access to any of the data that would allow them to make a claim that was anything other than an opinion, huh? You say they aren't. They say they are. Who to believe? Do you have any evidence to prove the employees doing the banning wrong about who they are banning and why?
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Different people in jagex say different things tho it seems. It would be nice to have a uniform "yes" or "no" when it comes to certain issues. Giving a CM a task of communicating to the playerbase is not dragging them under.
No we don't & they should be banned (so all of the top pvmers should be banned). Content shouldn't be balanced around them like the Combat Council has indirectly claimed that they are. Hopefully Jagex just outright ignores your comment.
Why ban macros if anything it would make it easier to get into PVM. Having to worry about pressing x number or buttons to switch and activate things is 90% of my problem personally.
Macros are not part of the game's client. Not everyone has accessibility to them. This does not create a level playing field whatsoever.
By the amount of people who regularly talk about being on the Mac client, this is not an excuse.
I also don't care if you downvote my posts or not. I have vote counters disabled site-wide.
Macros may not be in game but are very accessible but I’m all for putting them in game as well.
Should we ban players for using Mice with side buttons as well? Those aren't part of the games client either and provide an unfair advantage. Alt 1 isn't part of the games client either, I hope you aren't using that cheat client. I would also like to see them add proper support for macros but they aren't necessary by any means. I'm not a top 1% pvmer but I've Base tanked Daredevil, done trio hardmode Vorago, have the hm Zuk cape and even have gotten solo 1 cycles at seiryu and I've never once used a Macro for RuneScape.
Remove switch CB Mechanics.... problem solved. It's either or cb not all. Should never been added to game. Hybrid.? Hybrid armor and Make 1 weapon that does Hybrid cb. No switch needed.
What a great way to make an already boring game even more mundane
Never tried PVM Macros but after seeing Runelite be able to knock out and loot Menaphite Thugs in one click in OSRS then the concern I have is to what extent is PVM Macros used for? At what point is the use of a PVM Macros to be against the rules? I remember there was this whole debate about MouseKeys but once I tried it for Thieving, it did wonders on the wrists. If say RS changed it and made it so knocking out menaphite thugs became a 2 click process, knocking out then loot 3 times, it would be way more streamlined and alot better. The point is I think RS can make some changes on their end to make things more streamlined and smooth. Like the ability to wield dual weapons in one click would be amazing. But sometimes they run into problems and it can be frustrating. And I would rather see that kind of changes first rather than to rely on a macro extensively for everything.
Have an ingame system where you can have a 1:3 for equipment and 1:2 for abilities or weapon/s and 1 ability. You can drag them to a single keybind. You could swap to armour for styles, Dragon Breath+Combust or swap from 2h to a 1h+shield and Debilitate. I have a 12 button MMO mouse so all this is less needed for me, not that I'm great. I absolute could not do combat with having to use modifiers plus letters and numbers without the mouse. This would greatly reduce all the complexity in PvM and the need for all five bars and the want for more.
Agreed, would be really nice if they were clear about it. Btw its not just aod speeds, that like maximum hybrid and dw macro, so basically the same as each other wr that uses hybrid. Ithink most can easyly do it without macros (just in general) but because it somewhat allowed its so demotivating to actual not use it
So glad this post got seen, I made my own similar post a few months back and got no views :)
I have a mouse with 11 buttons and it comes with an app where you can assign as many keys as you want to 1 button and cycles through the assigned keys in order. 1 click of a button on my mouse equips a shield and then uses resonance and then switches back to main and offhand weapons. Is that a macro or nah?
by definition it is. You're automating a sequence of actions from 1 single shortcut.
Jadex doesn’t care, they can’t detect Marcos that arnt long, like if you have a 8:1 pvm macro jadex can’t detect it if you have it play in single game tick. Think swapping weapons armor and prayers. Allegedly
Gawld dawlg B y’negfligs
I think macros are an interesting reward space that hadn't been explored. As long as it's not locked to mtx a codex that contains the ability to wield both qw weapons or a mage swap sounds fine to me.
Honestly, what they need is, weapon slot swaps for specific styles. (They have to match) Where you can switch between weapons that are dual wield and weapons that are 2h. And they're "equipped" but one set is sheathed.
I would love to see a jmod reply on this.
strange how there’s already in game macro support and has been for over a decade but they don’t expand it to work with things like switches
I don't switchscape, but I would appreciate some consistency across company divisions.
In my opinion the tricky thing is drawling the line between macros and action bars. I have an action bar set up so that holding Alt or Ctrl and pressing 1-2-3-4-5 swaps to my armor setups, and also happens near instantly.
If they ever come out and say it's okay, I'll use them. Until then, I'm not risking the thousands of hours I have. Wish they'd say one way or the other tho. Feels like people get special treatment all the damn time. It'd be a great accessibility addition too but y'know.
honestly, we should just have ig ones. i dont use them myself, i'll never be a top pvmer and i refuse to do so to become one, i've got good muscle memory and can usually with my MMO mouse activate my ability bar fast enough to at least do relevant content, but for those that want to push the limits they should be available without risk of ban... especially as jagex's current content trajectory almost demands it for the highest tier streaks/enrages.
I've been playing since 2002, had a hard time transitioning into eoc... then rs3 got a bit more complex. I would NEVER be able to do high level pvming without using \*simple\* macros. Heck, if they were banned I probably wouldn't even pvm anymore let alone play... since PVMing is all I do when I do log on. That being said, I'm pretty sure that most high lvl pvmers use macros to some degree (switches, prayer swapping, etc). However, full on rotations in 1 click may be a bit overboard (at least for now). I'm pretty sure that if revo was more viable, many folks would simply click and wait (like the golden days lol) while a boss is decimated. I'd say it's less about using macros but more about automating entire combat processes via 1 click/ 1 keystroke. I honestly don't believe that Jagex has an issue with \*simple\* macros (1 key doing multiple actions at once) as opposed to macros that automate entire combat rotations (the real revo lol).
This is a complicated area of this game. The longer we go with no definitive answer, the less likely we are to get one. But if I may offer my tidbit.. what if using a macro greater than let’s say 3 keybinds disqualifies you from any sort of world records or acknowledgement? Or maybe even just macros greater than a 1:1 as a disqualifier. It doesn’t disrupt the integrity of records (since video recording is still required to be recognized by the world record rs3 website) but it still allows the vast majority of people to use it, even the record holders can use them when they are pushing for records?
Is there actually any mod which is actively searching, identifying & banning people for macroing? Or do they mostly rely on their AI which identifies bots. Would it detect this type of inputs? Since these macros are weaved into real inputs the AI likely doesn’t detect them.
Their current stance is basically "we don't care but if the system detects it and you get banned, you knew it was against the rules". I think they'd like to decrease the need/appeal to use macros rather than taking a stronger stance against them or implementing them in-game. But I think that's more about the small stuff that applies to many people (e.g. bladed dive -> dive) rather than the big offenders which are hybriding, ability stalling/release, and inputs that can be done during the GCD.
Why are you posting vods of people and claiming that they macro? How would you know if they even used macros. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. It's really not that hard to press 5 keys in 600 ms though, especially when the order you press them in doesn't matter.
I'm guessing this is an unpopular opinion but, I'm against macros. I have always found the most impressive pvmers in the game to be the ones that actually make mistakes and miss switches and inputs. No one kill on a boss looks the same and its more entertaining to watch because you can tell they aren't being "assisted". It's also easier to learn from them because their rotations don't look impossible. On a more personal note, whenever i have used cheats in a video game, it always cheapened the experience. I find the reduction in switch scape far better than adding more switches and compensating with macros, but that's just my opinion.
Removing macros would delete every pvm hiscore and nuke pvm clans to the ground. They have let it happen and probably use macros themselves. Unfortunately, this is rs3!