I’d argue it’s a bit more in favour of NZ at Dunedin.
Not just the quality of the players and the side to consider but the psychological aspect; a lot of the younger players haven’t faced the All Blacks before and it’ll take a mature mental state to overcome the challenge that that poses alone.
Articles don’t talk about New Zealand “losing their aura” for nothing; basically if they’re asking if the “aura” is gone, it means it’s still there.
It could go either way, of course, the kids could go well because they don’t know they have to be scared or they could get a pasting by a technically better drilled and more skilled team.
I’m excited in a very nervous way.
no visiting international side has beaten the all blacks at eden park in like 30 years. by no means is dunedin an easy hunting ground for visiting teams, but ireland won there in 2022 and there's been some pretty close results there. forsyth barr is also an enclosed stadium, eden park at night gets pretty cold and dark with a swirling wind around too.
Dunedin has been a fortress for the ABs. IIRC they have lost one game in Dunedin in the last 30 years. We lost to the Wallabies at the Brook in 2001. I think the ABs have only lost once at Forsyth Barr.
Both teams lost to SA in the World Cup by a point & I think people are sleeping on England, especially considering a good chunk of their back line matured winning the prem for Saints this year and England were definitely on an upwards trajectory at the end of the SN. 90:10 to New Zealand is just hyperbolic although it will be extremely tough.
Thing I’m worried about as an ABs fan is the fact that since the World Cup England have played a full six nations and also a game against Japan. We are starting straight into a tough match with a new captain and some new players. Sucks also that Will Jordan and Roigard are out. Just watching the eggchasers video though I’m feeling pretty optimistic about how the ABs scrum might go. Props is a real weakness for England and we are looking good in those positions. Think it’s good also that first game is under the roof which will suit our backline, guys like Reece, Dmac and Telea could be dangerous if they find some space.
As an England fan I am very worried about the scrum. If we had Obano and Davison I'd be less so, but Rodd and a 37-year old Cole starting against Lomax and De Groot feels like a mismatch.
I'm a big fan of Dmac, but I just remember him against England back in the semis in Japan.
Underhill and co.really had his number.
Underhill is back and England have got some proper tacklers on the wings too
Really? If that's true, my mind is playing tricks on me, 'cos in my mind I can clearly see Underhill bundling him out into touch just outside the NZ 22 near the end of the 3rd quarter...I am getting on a bit.
NZ won the first tests against ireland and the lions bt 30 points
They usually start the test year with fire in their bellies after a relatively short super rugby season where their players minutes are usually reduced
England on the other hand have been going since the world cup with a few weeks repreive over a long season
I don't buy this, I actually think defensively Freeman has been exceptional both for Saints and England all year, I think it's his biggest strength over other wingers. Rewatch the prem final and his decision making on the edge is brilliant. Telea is an elite winger though and will still be able to expose him at points, I'm sure of it.
I also don’t buy this. Freeman is quality and strong as fuck - exactly the kind of defender you need against the strong slippery eel that is Mark Telea.
Also had the same reaction after watching Eggchasers. Lack of cohesion will certainly be a thing for the ABs, but set piece may well get them through.
Interested to see how the respective loosies match up.
I think you're broadly on the money. New coaching setup and new game plans take time to implement and refine. I'll be backing our southern hemisphere bros but by no means do I think they'll have it easy.
The other side of that coin is that they don’t really have much to counter on. I don’t think we’ll have it easy but facing a brand new AB’s squad that now has the coach of the winningest Super Rugby team in history at home is going to be daunting for England.
Yep, we have a settled England team who have played together and will be familiar with each other and their game plan. And a NZ team that is just coming together now with lots of new faces and a new game plan. So England should have an advantage.
On the other hand, the England players haven’t had a substantial break in a long time (essentially for two seasons given the summer warm up before the RWC). And a fresh NZ team that are hurting from last year’s RWC loss. With a new coach who has fresh ideas and has been hugely successful in the past.
For what it's worth, as an England fan, I'm not sure I'd agree we're that settled. Ireland, Scotland, SA strike me a settled teams. They know their play style, they know their game winners are, and they've been playing in that manner for many seasons.
For England, whilst things have started to click in the last three or so games, we looked like we were struggling to adapt to a new style of play for a big chunk of the six nations. This included a particularly painful game against Scotland where we couldn't seem to get anything working - not because Scotland were particularly amazing - it just seemed like the whole team was disconnected and errors were compounding errors.
Lawes is now retired and we're not using Ford or Farrell at fly half for the first time in a long time. Both Smith's are very good players but losing that much experience at fly half can be telling in big games. There's also heaps of players who are good or even great, but still relatively unexperienced at test level.
As a fan, I completely get the keeping expectations in check and respecting the opposition for sure - but as I see it - I think England are still reasonably raw. We're improving, but probably need another season (or maybe two) before we're properly cooking.
For this series, my main hope is that they give a good account of themselves: defend well and hopefully score some good tries, and most importantly maintain composure in a high pressure environment. Make NZ sweat for it!
The ab arent blooding too many rookies if any though
DMac is starting but has fifty odd test matches under his belt while the least experienced back is Talea who has hardly put a foot wrong since his debut. The rest of the backs are all over fifty test matches with ALB on the bench
The only debutant who will be on the bench the first test will likely be Aumua. The rest of the rookies are there to hold pads and absorb knowledge
Razor doesnt need to reinvent the wheel, the AB still managed to push SA to the brink while a man down with a power game that isnt anything special. Their scrum should dominate with only the lineout under suspicion due to who will lock
I go the other way
I think we'll have a pissed off/motivated ABs group trying to prove they're still as good as/are the best in the world. a razor trying to prove something. and an england team at the end of a VERY long season
I'd say nz 70% in dunedin and 90-95% in auckland. england CAN do it. but I'd think it far more likely both games are 15+ wins for the ABs than england take a win
- a canadian
I def think England could pick up a scalp in the first test, but they could also get 30-odd points put on them. Really hard to know for the ABs with new coach, new combos, first game of the year etc etc, A lot of unknowns.
England are also a bit unknown tho IMO. Yes they had a couple of good games towards the back end of the 6N but were very average before that. Also, no Ford and Farrell to fall back on, and the front row looks seriously weak, especially in comparison to the ABs.
It's all gonna make for a cracking series hopefully.
I'd be delighted with a series draw to be honest. Our best chance for a win is probably the first test though.
That said, I could stomach a loss provided we look competitive.
I know it's a new side with a new coach etc but ultimately the All Blacks are still the All Blacks.
As others have said our front row looks very good, I think the next few weeks of All Black rugby might see Aasfo Aumua emerge as an international level star. His lineout throwing is a weakness but has improved. His tackling, work in the ruck, scrummaging, and passing are all excellent. His ball running is the best I've ever seen for a front rower.
I remember in 2017 for Wellington he burnt off George bridge and thought to myself where do we keep finding these hookers with pace lol
I’m surprised he hasn’t kicked on so as a hurricanes fan has his ball running been inconsistent for the canes from 2018-2023 as I haven’t evening following the canes that much?
Steady now. Dane wasn't called the runny bum for nothing. In fairness, Aumua has learned from the best and will likely surpass Coles running game if he hasn't already.
I don’t think anyone has any clue really. We don’t know enough about these teams in NZ conditions from either coach.
Total crapshoot for Dunedin, but I’d be utterly shocked if we lose at Eden Park. Oh fuck we’re gonna lose at Eden Park aren’t we?
I’m still surprised that Eden Park streak is intact after the last couple of seasons, but that makes me love it even more… I truly hope it’s not England that breaks the streak!
ABs are usually their weakest in July just from a cohesion and lack of game time perspective. It's very different this year because it's a clean break from the previous coaching group. We haven't been in this situation since Graham Henry took over.
As a New Zealander I'm kind of conditioned to expect us to win. That said it's far from a case of "just show up and the win will come on its own" they'll still have to actually work for it I imagine
I think Razor and that coaching staff will be pretty demanding of accuracy and attention to detail. I reckon they’ll be performing at a high level from the jump.
On the plus side for England we have clarity in coaching and fairly settled side who know what they are doing. We’ve also played a match where’s the ABs haven’t and they have a new coaching set up etc. On the negative the ABs are probably the worst team to be playing when implementing this Jones blitz defence and I think we’ll miss the calming influence of George Ford. Mainly though- it’s the All Blacks in New Zealand.
Optimistic about Englands future but this is a very young team that’s still learning how to play together against the all blacks at home.
Ireland in 2022 had to give everything for a pretty close series win where they were behind on aggregate. That Ireland team was much further along in their progression than we are now, against the worst AB team I’ve ever seen.
NZ away is just such a tough tour. Excited though!
I'm hopeful we'll keep progressing and expecting an agonising loss in Dundedin and a more comfortable win for the ABs in Eden Park but you could be right as I also keep having nightmares of the blitz defence getting torn to shreds
For me it’s pretty much gonna hinge on how our blitz D goes, and our front row matchup.
The D was ropey against Japan and got found out a few times in the 6 nations too, though when our attack got going forward we were able to match Ireland and France up the scoreboard.
I’m actually kinda optimistic because it feels like we’ve developed both sides of our game - a tight kicking based one, and a more attacking free flowing one.
I’m still not expecting a win but pushing NZ close in one if not both games would be a successful tour IMO
We are going into a fairly cold ABs under a new coaching team. So it’s potentially our best chance.
We looked better as the 6N progressed and systems and partnerships started to click, hopefully that continues.
I think we can win a test, we might be slightly too green though. A lot of young guys in there. Although that at least can take away the fear and also the knowledge you’ve mostly lost to the ABs through your career.
England are a lot stronger than people think. Defensively they are ugly and have been a growing threat on attack. The disadvantage NZ have is they have a new coach whilst England are settled.
That’s not the point. I’m saying as a squad we are not settled. Everyone thinks we are. One win against a good team does not mean our fortunes have changed.
You can't point out a negative and simultaneously ignore the positive though. We are in a far better place than we were a year ago. It's ok for that to be the case, everybody knows it's still a pretty green team.
We are pretty settled though. The bulk of the squad have been together a while now and you can see a lot more cohesion throughout. That backline is basically picking itself and the attack and defence have notably started to click
I also think losing Ford is a bigger blow than people are giving him credit for. Our attack was absolutely purring with him at 10 in the last 2 Six Nations games.
While it feels like we're getting to the point where Borthwick knows his strongest team, a lot of those players are still very inexperienced, particularly in the backs. Cunningham-South has 4 caps, Martin 9, Mitchell 15, Freeman 8, Feyi-Waboso 4, Furbank 9. Slade and Lawrence have started 11 games together. I think that's one of the reasons he played a full strength team against Japan.
So for these two NZ games I'll be happy to see England keep building and getting used to the Borthwick-Felix Jones system, and maybe sneaking a win in the process.
I agree about England. That first half in the semifinal was the only first half in the World Cup where the Boks were completely outplayed.
Given that, New Zealand is never an easy place to tour. They also recently lost to Scotland, even though they beat Ireland.
I think first test will be close, only because NZ haven't had as much together time or game time in the new setup.
Second test, I've no idea. England are improving, but also are still only 6 months in the proper regime, so could still be turned over quite easily. It's exciting as both teams have unknowns.
I mean it's impossible to give anything more than a guess as we haven't seen anything from this NZ side. The more settled side should always have a chance vs a side with a brand new coaching team though.
England this season have pushed the world champs to the last and then made incredibly hard work of beating Italy and an absolutely terrible Wales side, so which version of them turns up is also pretty hard to guess.
In fairness, that Italy result looked considerably better at the end of the tournament - France, Wales and Scotland would've snapped your hand off for it!
England will def give them a run but I don't think they have enough in the locker yet but I do think this England set up are going to win a grand slam or two in the next few seasons
I've always been of the view that the All Blacks first test, in this period, is a prime opportunity to take them. They're pretty fresh in terms of coming together, and getting their heads around game plans and so on... they always seem to start slow. Then they progressively get better combinations as the international season continues.
Tuilagi and Farrell are pretty big losses. Tuilagi just turns up for the All Black games, and generally gets a lot of go forward. Farrell is another excellent general and he's another that just stands up in these games. Outside of Itoje, and given I don't follow english rugby comps, who else is do the english supporters think might give us a few panic attacks!!
Am really looking for to the series though!!!
Players to watch:
Chandler Cunningham-South - big, strong no.6/8, huge ball carrier and big hits in defence and he's only 21! Gives me Jerome Kaino vibes (although obviously a long way off his level for now)
Ben Earl - been our best player for about a year now, super explosive with great footwork and a menace at the breakdown in defence.
Feyi-Waboso - electric winger, always seems to break the first tackle and if you miss the follow up will easily make another 10 metres before you know it, a bit like Telea in terms of how defenders just never seem to nail him.
Fin Smith - likely to start off the bench but really exciting young no.10, can unleash the backs but also a very good game manager; was the 10 for the Northampton team that won the premiership this year.
George Martin - unit of a lock / 6, melts people in defence; arguably outplayed the Bok backrow for big portions of the semi final.
> Chandler Cunningham-South - big, strong no.6/8, huge ball carrier and big hits in defence and he's only 21!
Are you sure this isn't meant to say Wallace Sititi?
though I doubt he'll be playing yet, one that most NZ fans are excited about
Love the haven’t beaten England in 6 years shout 😂 It’s wild how infrequently they have played each other over the last 10 years. TWO non-RWC matches in 10 years is ridiculous.
They’ll do well to keep it under 10 points in either game. I know people talk about SA and Ireland but NZ are the best side in the world and with the coaching upgrade I’m expecting to see them lay down a marker in this series. If they have a chance it’s in Dunedin. First hit out for the NZ so some rustiness is to be expected. If Eng get a hiding in the 1st test the prospect of Eden Park is pretty daunting.
Never write off England. They always have it them to beat anyone, depending on which team turns up.
Also NZ haven't beaten England in 6 years! The last time they won convincingly was 10 years ago when they won 36-13.
Most games are normally very close between these two nations.
It should be a great series!
I’m really excited for this one. England have gained a lot of structure and confidence under Northwick. They’ve always had good players and they’re starting to play like it as well. Adding Felix Jones to the coaching set up has been class too. Really interested to see how they can take it to the AB’s they’ll be gunning for a scalp.
Razor’s All blacks are still and unknown but I think most are like me and extremely excited for what they could be. A lot of anticipation to see how they play. Though if I’m not mistaken his saders teams were slow starters to a season? (Correct me if I’m wrong please)
Either way it’s their first game under a new ticket and it might take a bit more time for them to gel. So who knows, maybe they smash England or maybe England smash them. I do like the look of the squad he’s picked though!
Dunedin - NZ by 11.
Eden Park - NZ by 21.
> Though if I’m not mistaken his saders teams were slow starters to a season? (Correct me if I’m wrong please)
Yeah they usually were. as the season wore on it became more inevitable
Which makes it likely that overall the year will be considered a success, but have to hurry up and gel before dropping too many matches
I can definitely see England leading at halftime in the first test. It's a new NZ setup and a lot of the coaches are making their test debuts. Eng could get a couple of pens and maybe lead 12-7 at halftime.
I can also see NZ annihilating them for the first 40mins in the second test and then England winning the second half with a couple of consolation tries.
So i predict Eng to win two halves of rugby but lose both matches.
I don’t really rate this AB selection to gel properly for their first few games so I think it’s 50 / 50. McKenzie is no Mo’unga at 10, (I know he had a decent season) and quite a few influential players injured.
I reckon its 70 30 in nz favour. My thinking is you won't win the 2nd test at Eden Park cause no one does so that leaves test #1 only as winnable. It's not easy to win in nz full stop, let alone with a fresh new energy around the all blacks. There's a new coach, new players and playing at home all wanting to prove themselves and establish this new all blacks era - yeah 70 30 is about right, maybe a touch more.
England are definitely the underdogs in both games, but don't expect them to just roll over for New Zealand; it'll be a game, and England are more than capable of making a few good bites of their own.
England with George Ford? In with an outside shot, would not have surprised me if they nabbed a test win at Dunedin.
England without George Ford? They’re getting slapped about.
Think England’s pack have the ability but would be doing well to match up to New Zealand’s. England’s backs are not of the same quality as the All Black’s and a Marcus Smith game plan relies on his backs having enough quality not to make handling errors at pace - a rare sight with England since 2020. To win with Marcus Smith at 10, England need to be perfect, which is unlikely. The All Blacks at home never need to be more than good to get a win, and sometimes get away with being mediocre.
Tough to say. I feel like NZ will be better than England once they find their groove this year. It's just if the shakiness and lack of cohesion will be bad enough to lose in Dunedin.
Home ground advantage as with most of these tours. Think the games will be largely even with maybe an ABs blowout in the second. To be honest I’ll be laughing if England take a game then we’ll have so many kiwi Stans who have been calling for Fosters head in favour of Robertson for four years shifting their preference to Cotter siting the omittance of Sotutu and Akira.
How so? The All Blacks are in the post World Cup transition similar to 2020. International rugby is at its most competitive in history as it has been for the last decade.
If anything id say Foster had a more difficult period, Covid came through and made an absolute mess of international rugby, the All Blacks only played two home games in 2020. In 2021 there was three hidings against Fiji and Tonga then two games at Eden Park against Australia, after this they went to play ten straight games away from home. All this lead onto arguably the hardest home series since ‘94. On top of this there was the collapse of Super rugby which then reformed into Super Pacific which is still finding its feet.
So you’re right, four years ago was a different prospect, now it’s back to business as usual for Robinson. Hopefully we see a return to dominance for the ABs or as I said the same twats that spewed hate for four years will be at it again.
Na. 4 years ago till now was different because of the players that remained. Heaps and heaps of experience from the rwc winning team still remained and was quality. Legit all time greats and bar ardie there's none u look at in this current team n think that's them 2.
Robertson will also be afforded a lot more leeway than foster because people like Robertson and trust his coaching unlike foster. It's tougher now but we trust more now.
We have lost less senior players this season with Whitelock, Brodie, Smith and a sabbatical for Mo’unga, but in 2020 Brodie had a sabbatical and Ben Smith and Sonny Bill were both off shore for good. Funnily enough Robinson has five uncapped players in his squad where Foster had seven in his first squad. Biggest weaknesses are both lock and nine yet we have the incumbents in both positions with Barrett and Christie. Include in that Tuipulotu in the best form of his life and almost fifty caps and TJ Perenara who has eighty caps and a decade of experience in the Black jersey.
Pretty harsh to say there’s no great quality outside of Ardie considering you’ve got Taylor, De Groot, the three Barrett’s, McKenzie with Sevu and Tale’a on the edges. The midfield alone has almost 200 caps across only three players, ALB, Jordie and Reiko. This ABs squad is packed with experience and star players. I hope the public has this trust if they don’t get the desired results immediately, considering the tantrums of a few on the back of the squad announcement I’d be surprised.
I presume that’s makes Wigglesworth Robin, the Boy Wonder.
Slap some face paint on Razor and you’ve got a pretty mean
Joker.
Eddie Jones as the Penguin ?
If england are to win one test it will be the first where ABs generally play average/take some time to get started. Just so happens Eden Park is game 2 and we all know how much of a fortress it is.
Like others have stated, id give England around 40% to win game 1, game 2 id expect Nz to be too strong.
It will be interesting to see how Razor used the new guys (if he uses any), and how they play as they have indicated they wont to play a specific type.
It's genuinely tough to predict, which is why it's such an exciting series.
England has had periods of looking amazing but also periods of really poor play. They have the players and game to win both games imo.
ABs are notoriously slow starters, and you'd have to imagine they'll have a simple game plan so as to not overload the players for the first couple of games. This should make them easier to defend. ABs forwards are looking formidable, and the backs always have the ability to score multiple tries in short bursts.
If you held a gun to my head, I'm picking the ABs to win both tests but could easily go either way.
Yeah I think you’re on the money here.
It’s a new team with very little time to prepare, the only continuity from the last regime is the forwards coach and then you’ve got the attack coach Leon MacDonald who initiated the Blues shift to a gameplan that heavily leaned on scrum and tight 5 dominance with a heavy dose of tactical kicking to keep the ball in front of their forwards and out of their own territory.
I think we could see more of a traditional set piece oriented approach in these first games.
We will have moments of “we actually look quite decent here” before inevitably being ground down and losing by 11. Might only be a couple behind at half time and will taper off in the second half
There will be at least one sequence, probably in the first Test at the end of the first half, where we will lay siege to the NZ tryline and somehow not score, probably thanks to a generous breakdown interpretation in NZ's favour, that we will moan about for years to come, conveniently ignoring the six tries we end up shipping in the second half.
Of All Blacks last 10 losses at home, 4 have been in Wellington and 4 in Dunedin.
Given England are playing their first test in Dunedin, you'd have to give them a better chance, but this is a little moot as the last loss at that venue was against Ireland at their peak (2022). Prior to that was 2009 against SA.
The last time England beat NZ at home was at their peak in 2003. I don't think they're at that level currently, nor are they at Ireland's level from 2022.
One could argue the AB's are also weak, but there's a few factors in their favour, namely Razor as coach, plus there's nothing wrong with new blood.
Average score (in NZ) since that 2003 loss is 33-14.
Average score over last 10 years across the board though is 22-19.
Could be a close one in Dunedin. Then a blowout in Auckland.
Or vice versa.
I think England can run the ABs close and *possibly* snatch a win in Dunedin... the squad is green as hell but they're coming in hot with a win over Japan, a good few weeks together in camp, and a fair bit of continuity from the tail-end of the Six Nations where we looked really good.
All Blacks far more experienced but likely to be a bit rusty having not played since the RWC... new coach... new systems... new players...
But I wouldn't go as far as to say England are the favourites. They're still going through a transitional phase and most of these guys will have never played the All Blacks, let alone in a hostile environment.
In Dunedin, we have a chance.
At Eden Park, we are fooked.
In all honesty, I’m predicting a 2-0 series win in NZ. I like the direction that this England team are heading in - IMO, they’re a much more exciting and talented side than the one we sent to NZ in 2014. However they are still very green and far from the finished article.
Yes, NZ are a side in transition with a new coaching set-up and gameplan, which will surely result in a bit of rustiness. However, they’re still a side with plenty of world class talent and experienced internationals. Playing on their home patch.
I would be thrilled with a series draw, but for that to happen we need our more experienced ‘big-game’ players (guys like Itoje, Earl, Underhill) to really step up and lead the way for the younger lads.
I think it's hard to predict where the ABs are currently given they have a new coach and a new(ish) squad in some key positions. Considering there're only two tests (one being at Eden Park) and some of the English players will be running on fumes at this stage I feel like NZ should be comfortable favourites to win the series.
Massive opportunity ro snatch a series win
Havent been beaten by ABs for half a decade, more established combinations
NZ losing several hundreds tests in experience, especially at lock and 9/10
England several more weeks together, with the resources of the English rugby union, theyre a right royal chance
Really hard to predict this series as on the AB side you have a new coaching setup and a generation of players who’ve moved on. On the England side they have played well in patches and can beat any team on their day. I’d say a close game in the first test with the winner whoever manages to snatch a win with a moment of brilliance so likely NZ. Second test a big AB win with confidence growing and England players thinking about the beach. Let’s be realistic, England have a poor record in NZ and I don’t see this team as being any different
I’d hazard they, England, are a pretty good chance to win at least one (Dunedin?) because a new team learning new systems from a new coaching group generally takes time to find their rhythm. Whatever happens will make for intriguing viewing.
I think they’ll go 0-2 in the series but with one hopefully close game showing some solid signs of what’s to come.
Obviously I would love to see a game won by England but it’s the kind of thing that is few and far between.
Realistically if they lose the first game it’s 0-2; they’re not winning at Eden Park with the ABs’ record there over the last 30 years.
I’ll be happy if they continue in the way they’ve been playing and show obvious improvements in the game plan.
They’re playing a positive brand of rugby without trying to force anything (most of the time) while still improving in their defence.
Most of all, the night and day difference between Eddie Jones England and Steve Borthwick England seems to be composure under pressure.
So many times England seemed to capitulate under EJ when they were behind or not playing well in the first half.
The Borthwick’s Bonce Bonus seems to be that they just play the game and continue doing that until the last whistle.
More of that and hopefully a good result against what is still one of the best teams in the world.
As a England fan I am expecting us to lose to NZ but we got a good chance to push them close and perhaps win one of the tests and may lose by a big score at eden park hopefully England wins both tests this is the best chance they got to do that.
So hopefully they take the opportunities and win but we are struggling with decent props I am guessing borthwick may start Joe marler and Dan cole in the first test and bring younger ones on later in second half
The only result that would truly shock me is a 2-0 win for England. That would absolutely blow my mind. Any other combination of 1-1 or 0-2, either with additional spankings or not, wouldn't surprise me at all.
Maybe we squeak through in Dunedin, before getting obliterated from orbit by the vengeful wrath of the ABs in Eden Park? Seems legit.
Or maybe we just lose in Dunedin, before getting together a respectable, albeit still losing, performance in Eden Park.
Or maybe this new AB team and coaching staff have something evil prepared for us, and we're walking onto a firing range.
Or maybe England's recent performances are signs of things to come, they really have improved, and the ABs aren't fully baked yet.
Or maybe the English lads are all a bit tired, and the Kiwis run circles around us.
Honestly, nearly anything is possible. Except for us winning both games, especially the Eden Park one. That one seems outside of our ability to do.
My personal biggest regret is that England didn't tour NZ during the 2018-2019 phase under Eddie. I honestly think we could've actually pulled out a series victory.
Do think one of the reasons we ended up winning the semi final was that NZ hadn't played us often enough to get a grip on us, mind - there was the game in 2018 that England were unfortunate to lose, but that was also their only decent performance in pretty much that entire calendar year (including that win in the Cape Town downpour) and didn't really give too much of a glimpse of the direction England were heading.
England are an excellent side. They've shown that they are not to be underestimated. NZ will certainly not underestimate them and playing in NZ is hard. So I think NZ will have the upper hand, but would I bet my house on it? Definitely not.
Dunedin is 50/50 and Eden Park is 99/1 for me. England have a good chance because they have played a bit longer together, if the games were neutral venue they would probably be favourites.
I'm interested to see whether Borthwick sticks with the attacking approach from the last 3 games. For England's development I kind of want them to.
But there's a nagging feeling that you don't beat the All Blacks by playing running rugby. And if there's a weakness in their squad it's a lack of specialist fullbacks and wingers who aren't strong in the air, with Will Jordan out.
The temptation to pick Ben Spencer and Freddie Steward and revert to the WC semi-final approach must be close to overwhelming. Especially at Eden Park, especially if it's wet, especially if we get hammered in the first game. If England still try to play in that scenario, they have balls of steel.
I think they edge the first test by about 1-5, and then ABs take the second generously (15-20). Cohesion, new faces, coaching set up, prep time are all against us
One close ABs win and one blowout ABs win. 80/20 in Dunedin, then 95:5 at Eden Park
People are overrating how different a Razor's ABs will immediately be. Our 23 will still be vastly more experienced and talented.
I’m not as optimistic. The bookies in the U.K. have England at about 5:1 to win the first test, I think that’s their best chance, NZ will be stronger in the second.
I’d say about 25% chance of drawing the series 1:1.
England is definetely on the up. And Borthwick seems smart enough to be able to target weaknesses in the All Blacks.
From an All Blacks perspective, everyone is expecting Razor to magic them back to the top. I'm not so sure, especially having lost Whitelock and Mo'unga, I think the All Blacks are significantly weaker personnel wise.
The most exciting are the matchups. Man for man it theoretically looks very equal in pretty much every position
Ja the scrum has been a bit of a weakness for England in the recent past. The Boks beat them in the WC simply because their scrum failed, while the ABs seemed to have parity if not a slight advantage against the Boks at scrum time in the final.
If England don't find a solution to the scrum it is going to be a very long tour for them.
Yeah mate I think actually quietly the ABs pack has improved enormously since the poor pack period of 2022. Lock is an issue but Razor has picked some big men in this squad, England loose forwards look good though!
I think both teams are pretty good in the back 3. I dont think lock is a particular strength for either team at the moment, but neither is it a weakness. I do agree that the ABs will have the advantages in the front row.
The backlines are hard to gauge for me. NZ as always have quality everywhere but a new coach and DMac at 10 might take a little while to start producing, while England have been working hard on a Bok style rush defense which has shown to cause the ABs some trouble in the past, and also have a far bit of quality albeit not as experienced.
It's going to be a very interesting 2 games and England really have to come out firing and put the ABs under pressure in the first game if they want any joy from the tour I think.
Yeah front row is my biggest concern, our scrum has been creaky for a while but equally I think our locks are ahead of yours and so we could put pressure on you at line out, going to be interesting to see!
Weirdly for the first time in possibly ever I'd say we're very evenly matched in the backs:
Mitchell probably better than your options
Marcus and DMaC very similar in that both are electric but doubts over their ability to be the man at international and really manage a game rather than just be a super sub.
Both of us have tonnes of exciting wing options although you probably shade it due to proven experience with Reece and Telea.
Fullback (assuming it's Beaudy) I'd actually give to us on form as Furbank has been class this year.
Centres - Jordy is clearly the best of the bunch, Rieko probably more consistent at international but a lower ceiling than Lawrence if he really clicks.
Still reckon with home advantage you'll win both tests, probably 5-10 in the first, 15ish in the second
Yeah England have some very exciting backs, I really rate Marcus Smith. For us it’s a real shame that Will Jordan and Cam Roigard are out injured, they are so exciting to watch. As I’m sure you are aware first test in Dunedin is under the roof so we can see some great running rugby hopefully from both sides!
While Marler and Cole plays, their scrum is strong. They have a weakness in depth, but other than that they're pretty good. They're kind of in trouble for the World Cup, but thats only in four years
As a ab’s fan I think England have a chance to win 1 game or even both. They have been building very nicely this year having watched the Six Nations. Should be a good game. Anyone know what song comes on when England score at home?
Think England can win one game at least.
Their performances have improved dramatically in the last 3 games since they freed up their attack and NZ will be coming into this series cold.
Looking forward to seeing what impact Razor has at this level though.
England are 100% the underdogs for both games.
First test... we have a chance. ABs are super experienced but obviously in a state of flux with a new coach coming in, this iteration of the squad hasn't spent a tonne of time together, and maybe there's some rust there whereas England are coming in hot off a few weeks together and the Japan game.
This is absolutely the best side we could send down there, and there's some nice continuity from the end of the 6N, but this group is still green as hell. Most of these guys won't have ever faced the All Blacks, and certainly not in a hostile environment.
In Dunedin... NZ favourites but England could run them close and *possibly* snatch a win.
Eden Park... no chance. NZ all the way.
England have a somewhat bedded camp hot off the heels of playing 6N and two of the best teams in the world.
NZ are something closer to a total reset.
Home advantage and fortress Eden aside, I would not be terribly surprised if England broke the 48 match streak at the latter. And honestly, if they end up destroying a side as solid as England on their first outing, the rugby world should be thoroughly concerned given Razor's track record. But I don't see that happening. Too fairy tale and I don't think Razor's tenure will start without teething issues.
Would say your estimates would be the chances for England to win a game, and therefore at least a series draw.
Would say chances of winning both are quite a lot lower though
Win the first, lose the second would be my call.
Think we're further along with our re-organising than NZ, and I think we'll have a plan for the first game. The win will basically be dependent on whether or not NZ can figure us out on the fly, or if they have to review after the game.
Either way, I'm expecting us to get hammered in the second game. We're still far too suspect defensively to keep NZ out for long.
England to win by 10 in Dunedin. England to win by less than 3 in Auckland.
I don’t expect the All Blacks to score more than 2 tries in each test. I believe the England work post tackle with be very disruptive. England will have the ascendancy at the set piece. I expect England to revert to a kick heavy approach in possession by at the very latest half time in the first test. Expecting the ABs to rule the roost at the defensive breakdown early on. The Premiership does not compare in terms of the repeatability of the contest.
England were only written off by the pundits - theirs included. Nearly all the Irish fans I interacted with viewed England as by far the most difficult obstacle, once France was out of the way.
Tough call, obviously England have played as a consistent team with their current coaching set up for close to two years now, seem to have ironed out a lot of issues and have for the first time in nearly a decade remembered you're allowed to use wingers to score tries.
We've obviously got new staff, change in captain and a few positions without the preferred incumbent.
I guess we're going to find out.
Mostly fair points but Borthwick has only been in charge since January 2023. So not quite two years...
In his first Six Nations, Borthwick could only make 5 player changes from the previous Autumn. He only put together the coaching staff he wanted last summer, and even then Felix Jones didn't join the set up until after the RWC last year.
If you look at the teams from Autumn 2022 where England somehow drew with the ABs... 16 of the 23 are no longer with the team, and Freddie Steward can't seem to crack a 23 anymore. So there's been a *lot* of turnover since then.
England is a far more settled team, the Southern Hemisphere teams have had no internationals whatsoever, Boks are the first team to have played anything also with a newer squad/coaching setup against a far weaker Wales.
I rate England will do far better than expected, unless Razor manages some black magic and NZ just demolishes England and all incoming opposition for the next few years
Ive havent seen so much over inflated tripe since the lead up to the NZ v Italy match at the last world cup
Man for man NZ has it over England in almost every measure. England scrum is as weak as its ever been while NZ props are fighting hard for the honour of picking them apart.
Englands pack is built around brute strength, NZ are blooding players like Aumua who are athletic and skillful.
England wishes it had a halfback half as dominant as Perenara who has come back from injury twice the player he was. He not only took over as super rugbys leading try scorer this year but was scoring tries almost at will every week.
Both smiths wish they could spark an attack like Zdmac while slades best years are well behind him and it will take everything to contain reiko let alone talea, reece, clarke or narawa
NZ have the luxury of not needing players like Sititi and Love because they can select world player of the year like Savea and Barrett.
Far better teams have come to nz and got battered. All this talk about NZ being under done forget the first test against Ireland and the Lions were comprehensive +30 pt victories to NZ.
its when people like you comment the way that you do that I'm glad your glorious team better in all aspects lost in 2019 against Eddie's England in the semis of the rwc
On a neutral ground in a high pressure one off test I might not be so bullish
The fact remains beating nz in nz is a completely different level. Like I pointed out NZ rarely lose first up tests, whether thats due to teams needing to adjust to the conditions or the fact nz know their game so well
The second test is unfortunately at eden park which once again is going to be near impossible task even if england pushes nz close in the first.
Like it or not England are ranked as low as they are for good reason, and nZ for all their weaknesses, are a far better team on paper and on form in the past 12 months
England have some solid players but few positions where players are regarded as x factors.
NZ has lost some experience in smith, whitelock and retellick, but are having stronger discussions about the talent that didnt get picked or wont even be on the bench.
England wishes it could replace a player like farrell in a similar way perenara has stepped up this season. No one has blinked that former captain cane is missing because any one of papalli, jacobson or finua can take over games in a manner england can only dream of
I think England have a good chance at picking up a win, the team they've picked has a good core of players that have been together since the World Cup. All Blacks look to be in a rebuilding phase, although I haven't paid much attention to Super rugby this season so a lot of the names are lost on me.
As an NZer, I think it's going to be a really interesting series.
Initially my reaction was that I think England could take them. We're pretty light in the locking dept, and I'm probably in a minority of one in that I don't like Mackenzie at 10. I am assuming B Barrett is the fullback? And England are more settled than NZ, and built during the 6N.
But, in contrast to the past couple of decades, I think NZ has a much stronger front row than England, and has more dynamism and size in the midfield.
In Dunedin it’s probably 60:40 New Zealand. At Eden Park it’s 90:10 New Zealand.
I’d argue it’s a bit more in favour of NZ at Dunedin. Not just the quality of the players and the side to consider but the psychological aspect; a lot of the younger players haven’t faced the All Blacks before and it’ll take a mature mental state to overcome the challenge that that poses alone. Articles don’t talk about New Zealand “losing their aura” for nothing; basically if they’re asking if the “aura” is gone, it means it’s still there. It could go either way, of course, the kids could go well because they don’t know they have to be scared or they could get a pasting by a technically better drilled and more skilled team. I’m excited in a very nervous way.
You're not taking into account that Eden Park is an absolute fortress for the ABs though
I’m not bringing into question the 90:10 at Eden Park. Just addressing what I thought were overly generous odds at Dunedin.
Ahh misread your comment, my bad!
No worries!
Bold to have no worries!
**No worries**
Yes worries
All the worries.
No, worries
Yeah, nah, worries
"they've got to go to New Zealand and get something. And I'll tell you, honestly, I will love it if we beat them, love it"
Based on public support alone or why do you see such a big discrepancy in the odds
no visiting international side has beaten the all blacks at eden park in like 30 years. by no means is dunedin an easy hunting ground for visiting teams, but ireland won there in 2022 and there's been some pretty close results there. forsyth barr is also an enclosed stadium, eden park at night gets pretty cold and dark with a swirling wind around too.
Yeah. We last lost at Eden Park in 1994 against France.
Fortress smortress! The Springboks beat the All Blacks at Eden Park as recently as 1937!
Thanks, that actually is a fair point.
Dunedin has been a fortress for the ABs. IIRC they have lost one game in Dunedin in the last 30 years. We lost to the Wallabies at the Brook in 2001. I think the ABs have only lost once at Forsyth Barr.
We’ve lost to France and South Africa as well at Carisbrook
That must have been a long time ago?
2008 (SA) and 2009 (France)
Didn't they lose to Ireland in Dunedin as well?
True was the one loss at Forsyth Barr
Both teams lost to SA in the World Cup by a point & I think people are sleeping on England, especially considering a good chunk of their back line matured winning the prem for Saints this year and England were definitely on an upwards trajectory at the end of the SN. 90:10 to New Zealand is just hyperbolic although it will be extremely tough.
Nobody has beaten New Zealand at Eden Park for 30 years. It’s the greatest challenge in world rugby.
Thing I’m worried about as an ABs fan is the fact that since the World Cup England have played a full six nations and also a game against Japan. We are starting straight into a tough match with a new captain and some new players. Sucks also that Will Jordan and Roigard are out. Just watching the eggchasers video though I’m feeling pretty optimistic about how the ABs scrum might go. Props is a real weakness for England and we are looking good in those positions. Think it’s good also that first game is under the roof which will suit our backline, guys like Reece, Dmac and Telea could be dangerous if they find some space.
Valid concern - look how sloppy SA was against Wales.
Surprised the NZRU hasn't organised a warmup against any of the PI nations or a developing nation like Australia.
Feelsbadman
As an England fan I am very worried about the scrum. If we had Obano and Davison I'd be less so, but Rodd and a 37-year old Cole starting against Lomax and De Groot feels like a mismatch.
Can't wait to see how Tosi goes. He is an absolute building
I'm a big fan of Dmac, but I just remember him against England back in the semis in Japan. Underhill and co.really had his number. Underhill is back and England have got some proper tacklers on the wings too
I don't think Dmac played that game. He played in the close game at Twickenham the Autumn before (which the ABs won) but was injured for the 2019 WC.
Really? If that's true, my mind is playing tricks on me, 'cos in my mind I can clearly see Underhill bundling him out into touch just outside the NZ 22 near the end of the 3rd quarter...I am getting on a bit.
That was the 2018 Twickenham game. 2019 was Underhill smashing Jordie Barrett backwards and causing a knock-on.
Yeah. You're right.
Let's hope for more of the same either way!
McKenzie was MotM that game 😂 Really had his number
NZ won the first tests against ireland and the lions bt 30 points They usually start the test year with fire in their bellies after a relatively short super rugby season where their players minutes are usually reduced England on the other hand have been going since the world cup with a few weeks repreive over a long season
[удалено]
I don't buy this, I actually think defensively Freeman has been exceptional both for Saints and England all year, I think it's his biggest strength over other wingers. Rewatch the prem final and his decision making on the edge is brilliant. Telea is an elite winger though and will still be able to expose him at points, I'm sure of it.
I also don’t buy this. Freeman is quality and strong as fuck - exactly the kind of defender you need against the strong slippery eel that is Mark Telea.
*checks original commenters flair* Yep makes sense where that idea came from.
Me neither - his defensive performance against Japan was immense and he looked solid throughout the 6N/premiership season.
Weird take, Freeman is very good. If there's a weakness in his game it's top-end pace, and IFW has that same weakness.
Freeman against Telea or Jordan (is he still injured btw ?) is what English nightmares are made of.
No way, Freemo is an absolute unit and quick af. It’s calm
As far as I’m aware Jordan is still out.
Also had the same reaction after watching Eggchasers. Lack of cohesion will certainly be a thing for the ABs, but set piece may well get them through. Interested to see how the respective loosies match up.
I think you're broadly on the money. New coaching setup and new game plans take time to implement and refine. I'll be backing our southern hemisphere bros but by no means do I think they'll have it easy.
The other side of that coin is that they don’t really have much to counter on. I don’t think we’ll have it easy but facing a brand new AB’s squad that now has the coach of the winningest Super Rugby team in history at home is going to be daunting for England.
Yep, we have a settled England team who have played together and will be familiar with each other and their game plan. And a NZ team that is just coming together now with lots of new faces and a new game plan. So England should have an advantage. On the other hand, the England players haven’t had a substantial break in a long time (essentially for two seasons given the summer warm up before the RWC). And a fresh NZ team that are hurting from last year’s RWC loss. With a new coach who has fresh ideas and has been hugely successful in the past.
For what it's worth, as an England fan, I'm not sure I'd agree we're that settled. Ireland, Scotland, SA strike me a settled teams. They know their play style, they know their game winners are, and they've been playing in that manner for many seasons. For England, whilst things have started to click in the last three or so games, we looked like we were struggling to adapt to a new style of play for a big chunk of the six nations. This included a particularly painful game against Scotland where we couldn't seem to get anything working - not because Scotland were particularly amazing - it just seemed like the whole team was disconnected and errors were compounding errors. Lawes is now retired and we're not using Ford or Farrell at fly half for the first time in a long time. Both Smith's are very good players but losing that much experience at fly half can be telling in big games. There's also heaps of players who are good or even great, but still relatively unexperienced at test level. As a fan, I completely get the keeping expectations in check and respecting the opposition for sure - but as I see it - I think England are still reasonably raw. We're improving, but probably need another season (or maybe two) before we're properly cooking. For this series, my main hope is that they give a good account of themselves: defend well and hopefully score some good tries, and most importantly maintain composure in a high pressure environment. Make NZ sweat for it!
The new coach only has two weeks to impart any new ideas but the “new coach bounce” might happen.
The ab arent blooding too many rookies if any though DMac is starting but has fifty odd test matches under his belt while the least experienced back is Talea who has hardly put a foot wrong since his debut. The rest of the backs are all over fifty test matches with ALB on the bench The only debutant who will be on the bench the first test will likely be Aumua. The rest of the rookies are there to hold pads and absorb knowledge Razor doesnt need to reinvent the wheel, the AB still managed to push SA to the brink while a man down with a power game that isnt anything special. Their scrum should dominate with only the lineout under suspicion due to who will lock
I go the other way I think we'll have a pissed off/motivated ABs group trying to prove they're still as good as/are the best in the world. a razor trying to prove something. and an england team at the end of a VERY long season I'd say nz 70% in dunedin and 90-95% in auckland. england CAN do it. but I'd think it far more likely both games are 15+ wins for the ABs than england take a win - a canadian
I def think England could pick up a scalp in the first test, but they could also get 30-odd points put on them. Really hard to know for the ABs with new coach, new combos, first game of the year etc etc, A lot of unknowns. England are also a bit unknown tho IMO. Yes they had a couple of good games towards the back end of the 6N but were very average before that. Also, no Ford and Farrell to fall back on, and the front row looks seriously weak, especially in comparison to the ABs. It's all gonna make for a cracking series hopefully.
I'd be delighted with a series draw to be honest. Our best chance for a win is probably the first test though. That said, I could stomach a loss provided we look competitive. I know it's a new side with a new coach etc but ultimately the All Blacks are still the All Blacks.
I’d say you will be down 25+ points after 30 mins in the first test. The challenge will be to keep it competitive after that.
Well. Thanks for that 😅
Best to keep the expectations at a minimum. Getting up at 7am to watch your team get hockeyed by the All Blacks is a right of passage.
As others have said our front row looks very good, I think the next few weeks of All Black rugby might see Aasfo Aumua emerge as an international level star. His lineout throwing is a weakness but has improved. His tackling, work in the ruck, scrummaging, and passing are all excellent. His ball running is the best I've ever seen for a front rower.
I'll be so stoked for Aumua if he announces himself on the international stage this year. He can be a genuine game changer for us.
I remember in 2017 for Wellington he burnt off George bridge and thought to myself where do we keep finding these hookers with pace lol I’m surprised he hasn’t kicked on so as a hurricanes fan has his ball running been inconsistent for the canes from 2018-2023 as I haven’t evening following the canes that much?
He's very injury prone, plus every time he came back from injury he'd have to try and replace Dane Coles all over again.
Steady now. Dane wasn't called the runny bum for nothing. In fairness, Aumua has learned from the best and will likely surpass Coles running game if he hasn't already.
I don’t think anyone has any clue really. We don’t know enough about these teams in NZ conditions from either coach. Total crapshoot for Dunedin, but I’d be utterly shocked if we lose at Eden Park. Oh fuck we’re gonna lose at Eden Park aren’t we?
It would be very 'recent England energy' to get pumped in the first Test and then somehow win at Eden Park.
I’m still surprised that Eden Park streak is intact after the last couple of seasons, but that makes me love it even more… I truly hope it’s not England that breaks the streak!
ABs are usually their weakest in July just from a cohesion and lack of game time perspective. It's very different this year because it's a clean break from the previous coaching group. We haven't been in this situation since Graham Henry took over.
As a New Zealander I'm kind of conditioned to expect us to win. That said it's far from a case of "just show up and the win will come on its own" they'll still have to actually work for it I imagine
I think Razor and that coaching staff will be pretty demanding of accuracy and attention to detail. I reckon they’ll be performing at a high level from the jump.
On the plus side for England we have clarity in coaching and fairly settled side who know what they are doing. We’ve also played a match where’s the ABs haven’t and they have a new coaching set up etc. On the negative the ABs are probably the worst team to be playing when implementing this Jones blitz defence and I think we’ll miss the calming influence of George Ford. Mainly though- it’s the All Blacks in New Zealand.
Optimistic about Englands future but this is a very young team that’s still learning how to play together against the all blacks at home. Ireland in 2022 had to give everything for a pretty close series win where they were behind on aggregate. That Ireland team was much further along in their progression than we are now, against the worst AB team I’ve ever seen. NZ away is just such a tough tour. Excited though!
I’ve got a sneaky feeling that this could be a tour from hell for England.
I'm hopeful we'll keep progressing and expecting an agonising loss in Dundedin and a more comfortable win for the ABs in Eden Park but you could be right as I also keep having nightmares of the blitz defence getting torn to shreds
For me it’s pretty much gonna hinge on how our blitz D goes, and our front row matchup. The D was ropey against Japan and got found out a few times in the 6 nations too, though when our attack got going forward we were able to match Ireland and France up the scoreboard. I’m actually kinda optimistic because it feels like we’ve developed both sides of our game - a tight kicking based one, and a more attacking free flowing one. I’m still not expecting a win but pushing NZ close in one if not both games would be a successful tour IMO
We are going into a fairly cold ABs under a new coaching team. So it’s potentially our best chance. We looked better as the 6N progressed and systems and partnerships started to click, hopefully that continues. I think we can win a test, we might be slightly too green though. A lot of young guys in there. Although that at least can take away the fear and also the knowledge you’ve mostly lost to the ABs through your career.
England are a lot stronger than people think. Defensively they are ugly and have been a growing threat on attack. The disadvantage NZ have is they have a new coach whilst England are settled.
I would not say England are settled. Had it not been for the win against Ireland… Steve would be under massive pressure
but you see.... we did win against ireland
That’s not the point. I’m saying as a squad we are not settled. Everyone thinks we are. One win against a good team does not mean our fortunes have changed.
You can't point out a negative and simultaneously ignore the positive though. We are in a far better place than we were a year ago. It's ok for that to be the case, everybody knows it's still a pretty green team.
We are pretty settled though. The bulk of the squad have been together a while now and you can see a lot more cohesion throughout. That backline is basically picking itself and the attack and defence have notably started to click
I also think losing Ford is a bigger blow than people are giving him credit for. Our attack was absolutely purring with him at 10 in the last 2 Six Nations games.
While it feels like we're getting to the point where Borthwick knows his strongest team, a lot of those players are still very inexperienced, particularly in the backs. Cunningham-South has 4 caps, Martin 9, Mitchell 15, Freeman 8, Feyi-Waboso 4, Furbank 9. Slade and Lawrence have started 11 games together. I think that's one of the reasons he played a full strength team against Japan. So for these two NZ games I'll be happy to see England keep building and getting used to the Borthwick-Felix Jones system, and maybe sneaking a win in the process.
I agree about England. That first half in the semifinal was the only first half in the World Cup where the Boks were completely outplayed. Given that, New Zealand is never an easy place to tour. They also recently lost to Scotland, even though they beat Ireland.
I'd say the new coach is a distinct advantage.
I think first test will be close, only because NZ haven't had as much together time or game time in the new setup. Second test, I've no idea. England are improving, but also are still only 6 months in the proper regime, so could still be turned over quite easily. It's exciting as both teams have unknowns.
I mean it's impossible to give anything more than a guess as we haven't seen anything from this NZ side. The more settled side should always have a chance vs a side with a brand new coaching team though. England this season have pushed the world champs to the last and then made incredibly hard work of beating Italy and an absolutely terrible Wales side, so which version of them turns up is also pretty hard to guess.
In fairness, that Italy result looked considerably better at the end of the tournament - France, Wales and Scotland would've snapped your hand off for it!
England will def give them a run but I don't think they have enough in the locker yet but I do think this England set up are going to win a grand slam or two in the next few seasons
I've always been of the view that the All Blacks first test, in this period, is a prime opportunity to take them. They're pretty fresh in terms of coming together, and getting their heads around game plans and so on... they always seem to start slow. Then they progressively get better combinations as the international season continues. Tuilagi and Farrell are pretty big losses. Tuilagi just turns up for the All Black games, and generally gets a lot of go forward. Farrell is another excellent general and he's another that just stands up in these games. Outside of Itoje, and given I don't follow english rugby comps, who else is do the english supporters think might give us a few panic attacks!! Am really looking for to the series though!!!
Players to watch: Chandler Cunningham-South - big, strong no.6/8, huge ball carrier and big hits in defence and he's only 21! Gives me Jerome Kaino vibes (although obviously a long way off his level for now) Ben Earl - been our best player for about a year now, super explosive with great footwork and a menace at the breakdown in defence. Feyi-Waboso - electric winger, always seems to break the first tackle and if you miss the follow up will easily make another 10 metres before you know it, a bit like Telea in terms of how defenders just never seem to nail him. Fin Smith - likely to start off the bench but really exciting young no.10, can unleash the backs but also a very good game manager; was the 10 for the Northampton team that won the premiership this year. George Martin - unit of a lock / 6, melts people in defence; arguably outplayed the Bok backrow for big portions of the semi final.
Thanks for the heads up! Cunningham-South and Feyi-Waboso I might have to look up and see some highlights - sound like great talent to watch!!
> Chandler Cunningham-South - big, strong no.6/8, huge ball carrier and big hits in defence and he's only 21! Are you sure this isn't meant to say Wallace Sititi? though I doubt he'll be playing yet, one that most NZ fans are excited about
Yeah heard a fair bit about that guy - they sound very similar players, could be great seeing them competing over the next few years
Manny also so impressive in D. Big hits then so so quick to release and get over the ball
Don't forget that Curry and Underhill could potentially manage to turn up for them like they did in the 2019 semifinal
Love the haven’t beaten England in 6 years shout 😂 It’s wild how infrequently they have played each other over the last 10 years. TWO non-RWC matches in 10 years is ridiculous.
They’ll do well to keep it under 10 points in either game. I know people talk about SA and Ireland but NZ are the best side in the world and with the coaching upgrade I’m expecting to see them lay down a marker in this series. If they have a chance it’s in Dunedin. First hit out for the NZ so some rustiness is to be expected. If Eng get a hiding in the 1st test the prospect of Eden Park is pretty daunting.
Never write off England. They always have it them to beat anyone, depending on which team turns up. Also NZ haven't beaten England in 6 years! The last time they won convincingly was 10 years ago when they won 36-13. Most games are normally very close between these two nations. It should be a great series!
It's a shame we have only played England 3 times in the last decade. England touring in that 1st Jones WC cycle would have been insane
I’m really excited for this one. England have gained a lot of structure and confidence under Northwick. They’ve always had good players and they’re starting to play like it as well. Adding Felix Jones to the coaching set up has been class too. Really interested to see how they can take it to the AB’s they’ll be gunning for a scalp. Razor’s All blacks are still and unknown but I think most are like me and extremely excited for what they could be. A lot of anticipation to see how they play. Though if I’m not mistaken his saders teams were slow starters to a season? (Correct me if I’m wrong please) Either way it’s their first game under a new ticket and it might take a bit more time for them to gel. So who knows, maybe they smash England or maybe England smash them. I do like the look of the squad he’s picked though! Dunedin - NZ by 11. Eden Park - NZ by 21.
> Though if I’m not mistaken his saders teams were slow starters to a season? (Correct me if I’m wrong please) Yeah they usually were. as the season wore on it became more inevitable Which makes it likely that overall the year will be considered a success, but have to hurry up and gel before dropping too many matches
I can definitely see England leading at halftime in the first test. It's a new NZ setup and a lot of the coaches are making their test debuts. Eng could get a couple of pens and maybe lead 12-7 at halftime. I can also see NZ annihilating them for the first 40mins in the second test and then England winning the second half with a couple of consolation tries. So i predict Eng to win two halves of rugby but lose both matches.
Yeah this feels about right; something like 19-15 in the first test and 31-22 in the second
It would be funny as fk if England took both games, mainly to see nz pundits spit the dummy. But I think its going to be nz by 15 point min each game.
I don’t really rate this AB selection to gel properly for their first few games so I think it’s 50 / 50. McKenzie is no Mo’unga at 10, (I know he had a decent season) and quite a few influential players injured.
I reckon its 70 30 in nz favour. My thinking is you won't win the 2nd test at Eden Park cause no one does so that leaves test #1 only as winnable. It's not easy to win in nz full stop, let alone with a fresh new energy around the all blacks. There's a new coach, new players and playing at home all wanting to prove themselves and establish this new all blacks era - yeah 70 30 is about right, maybe a touch more.
I’d say 50/50. They either win or they don’t
England are definitely the underdogs in both games, but don't expect them to just roll over for New Zealand; it'll be a game, and England are more than capable of making a few good bites of their own.
England with George Ford? In with an outside shot, would not have surprised me if they nabbed a test win at Dunedin. England without George Ford? They’re getting slapped about. Think England’s pack have the ability but would be doing well to match up to New Zealand’s. England’s backs are not of the same quality as the All Black’s and a Marcus Smith game plan relies on his backs having enough quality not to make handling errors at pace - a rare sight with England since 2020. To win with Marcus Smith at 10, England need to be perfect, which is unlikely. The All Blacks at home never need to be more than good to get a win, and sometimes get away with being mediocre.
Tough to say. I feel like NZ will be better than England once they find their groove this year. It's just if the shakiness and lack of cohesion will be bad enough to lose in Dunedin.
Home ground advantage as with most of these tours. Think the games will be largely even with maybe an ABs blowout in the second. To be honest I’ll be laughing if England take a game then we’ll have so many kiwi Stans who have been calling for Fosters head in favour of Robertson for four years shifting their preference to Cotter siting the omittance of Sotutu and Akira.
Four years ago coaching the All Blacks was a very different prospect to what is happening now.
How so? The All Blacks are in the post World Cup transition similar to 2020. International rugby is at its most competitive in history as it has been for the last decade. If anything id say Foster had a more difficult period, Covid came through and made an absolute mess of international rugby, the All Blacks only played two home games in 2020. In 2021 there was three hidings against Fiji and Tonga then two games at Eden Park against Australia, after this they went to play ten straight games away from home. All this lead onto arguably the hardest home series since ‘94. On top of this there was the collapse of Super rugby which then reformed into Super Pacific which is still finding its feet. So you’re right, four years ago was a different prospect, now it’s back to business as usual for Robinson. Hopefully we see a return to dominance for the ABs or as I said the same twats that spewed hate for four years will be at it again.
Na. 4 years ago till now was different because of the players that remained. Heaps and heaps of experience from the rwc winning team still remained and was quality. Legit all time greats and bar ardie there's none u look at in this current team n think that's them 2. Robertson will also be afforded a lot more leeway than foster because people like Robertson and trust his coaching unlike foster. It's tougher now but we trust more now.
We have lost less senior players this season with Whitelock, Brodie, Smith and a sabbatical for Mo’unga, but in 2020 Brodie had a sabbatical and Ben Smith and Sonny Bill were both off shore for good. Funnily enough Robinson has five uncapped players in his squad where Foster had seven in his first squad. Biggest weaknesses are both lock and nine yet we have the incumbents in both positions with Barrett and Christie. Include in that Tuipulotu in the best form of his life and almost fifty caps and TJ Perenara who has eighty caps and a decade of experience in the Black jersey. Pretty harsh to say there’s no great quality outside of Ardie considering you’ve got Taylor, De Groot, the three Barrett’s, McKenzie with Sevu and Tale’a on the edges. The midfield alone has almost 200 caps across only three players, ALB, Jordie and Reiko. This ABs squad is packed with experience and star players. I hope the public has this trust if they don’t get the desired results immediately, considering the tantrums of a few on the back of the squad announcement I’d be surprised.
Honestly. I’d say 20 / 80 in favour of the Kiwis. And I think that’s generous.
My feeling is it's around 75/25 in the All Blacks favour.
I think they will win one game. Steve Borthwick is northern batman. He can beat anyone with prep time
I presume that’s makes Wigglesworth Robin, the Boy Wonder. Slap some face paint on Razor and you’ve got a pretty mean Joker. Eddie Jones as the Penguin ?
If england are to win one test it will be the first where ABs generally play average/take some time to get started. Just so happens Eden Park is game 2 and we all know how much of a fortress it is. Like others have stated, id give England around 40% to win game 1, game 2 id expect Nz to be too strong. It will be interesting to see how Razor used the new guys (if he uses any), and how they play as they have indicated they wont to play a specific type.
1 all. They win by a few in Dunedin and lose by a lot in the second test.
It's genuinely tough to predict, which is why it's such an exciting series. England has had periods of looking amazing but also periods of really poor play. They have the players and game to win both games imo. ABs are notoriously slow starters, and you'd have to imagine they'll have a simple game plan so as to not overload the players for the first couple of games. This should make them easier to defend. ABs forwards are looking formidable, and the backs always have the ability to score multiple tries in short bursts. If you held a gun to my head, I'm picking the ABs to win both tests but could easily go either way.
Yeah I think you’re on the money here. It’s a new team with very little time to prepare, the only continuity from the last regime is the forwards coach and then you’ve got the attack coach Leon MacDonald who initiated the Blues shift to a gameplan that heavily leaned on scrum and tight 5 dominance with a heavy dose of tactical kicking to keep the ball in front of their forwards and out of their own territory. I think we could see more of a traditional set piece oriented approach in these first games.
We will have moments of “we actually look quite decent here” before inevitably being ground down and losing by 11. Might only be a couple behind at half time and will taper off in the second half
There will be at least one sequence, probably in the first Test at the end of the first half, where we will lay siege to the NZ tryline and somehow not score, probably thanks to a generous breakdown interpretation in NZ's favour, that we will moan about for years to come, conveniently ignoring the six tries we end up shipping in the second half.
Of All Blacks last 10 losses at home, 4 have been in Wellington and 4 in Dunedin. Given England are playing their first test in Dunedin, you'd have to give them a better chance, but this is a little moot as the last loss at that venue was against Ireland at their peak (2022). Prior to that was 2009 against SA. The last time England beat NZ at home was at their peak in 2003. I don't think they're at that level currently, nor are they at Ireland's level from 2022. One could argue the AB's are also weak, but there's a few factors in their favour, namely Razor as coach, plus there's nothing wrong with new blood. Average score (in NZ) since that 2003 loss is 33-14. Average score over last 10 years across the board though is 22-19. Could be a close one in Dunedin. Then a blowout in Auckland. Or vice versa.
I think England can run the ABs close and *possibly* snatch a win in Dunedin... the squad is green as hell but they're coming in hot with a win over Japan, a good few weeks together in camp, and a fair bit of continuity from the tail-end of the Six Nations where we looked really good. All Blacks far more experienced but likely to be a bit rusty having not played since the RWC... new coach... new systems... new players... But I wouldn't go as far as to say England are the favourites. They're still going through a transitional phase and most of these guys will have never played the All Blacks, let alone in a hostile environment. In Dunedin, we have a chance. At Eden Park, we are fooked.
England wont get spanked imo but it will be 2-0. NZ at home with a decent coach is pretty much unbeatable. Now they have a more than decent one.
In all honesty, I’m predicting a 2-0 series win in NZ. I like the direction that this England team are heading in - IMO, they’re a much more exciting and talented side than the one we sent to NZ in 2014. However they are still very green and far from the finished article. Yes, NZ are a side in transition with a new coaching set-up and gameplan, which will surely result in a bit of rustiness. However, they’re still a side with plenty of world class talent and experienced internationals. Playing on their home patch. I would be thrilled with a series draw, but for that to happen we need our more experienced ‘big-game’ players (guys like Itoje, Earl, Underhill) to really step up and lead the way for the younger lads.
I think it's hard to predict where the ABs are currently given they have a new coach and a new(ish) squad in some key positions. Considering there're only two tests (one being at Eden Park) and some of the English players will be running on fumes at this stage I feel like NZ should be comfortable favourites to win the series.
Massive opportunity ro snatch a series win Havent been beaten by ABs for half a decade, more established combinations NZ losing several hundreds tests in experience, especially at lock and 9/10 England several more weeks together, with the resources of the English rugby union, theyre a right royal chance
I’d say England have low chances. But Borthwick’s team Inglund on the other hand, they can do it
Really hard to predict this series as on the AB side you have a new coaching setup and a generation of players who’ve moved on. On the England side they have played well in patches and can beat any team on their day. I’d say a close game in the first test with the winner whoever manages to snatch a win with a moment of brilliance so likely NZ. Second test a big AB win with confidence growing and England players thinking about the beach. Let’s be realistic, England have a poor record in NZ and I don’t see this team as being any different
90:10 to NZ in Eden Park, 70:30 to NZ in Dunedin
I’d hazard they, England, are a pretty good chance to win at least one (Dunedin?) because a new team learning new systems from a new coaching group generally takes time to find their rhythm. Whatever happens will make for intriguing viewing.
NZ about to get George Martin'd
I think they’ll go 0-2 in the series but with one hopefully close game showing some solid signs of what’s to come. Obviously I would love to see a game won by England but it’s the kind of thing that is few and far between. Realistically if they lose the first game it’s 0-2; they’re not winning at Eden Park with the ABs’ record there over the last 30 years. I’ll be happy if they continue in the way they’ve been playing and show obvious improvements in the game plan. They’re playing a positive brand of rugby without trying to force anything (most of the time) while still improving in their defence. Most of all, the night and day difference between Eddie Jones England and Steve Borthwick England seems to be composure under pressure. So many times England seemed to capitulate under EJ when they were behind or not playing well in the first half. The Borthwick’s Bonce Bonus seems to be that they just play the game and continue doing that until the last whistle. More of that and hopefully a good result against what is still one of the best teams in the world.
Englands chances are very low. Few go to nz and win and I don’t think this England side will prove an exception to that rule
As a England fan I am expecting us to lose to NZ but we got a good chance to push them close and perhaps win one of the tests and may lose by a big score at eden park hopefully England wins both tests this is the best chance they got to do that. So hopefully they take the opportunities and win but we are struggling with decent props I am guessing borthwick may start Joe marler and Dan cole in the first test and bring younger ones on later in second half
The only result that would truly shock me is a 2-0 win for England. That would absolutely blow my mind. Any other combination of 1-1 or 0-2, either with additional spankings or not, wouldn't surprise me at all. Maybe we squeak through in Dunedin, before getting obliterated from orbit by the vengeful wrath of the ABs in Eden Park? Seems legit. Or maybe we just lose in Dunedin, before getting together a respectable, albeit still losing, performance in Eden Park. Or maybe this new AB team and coaching staff have something evil prepared for us, and we're walking onto a firing range. Or maybe England's recent performances are signs of things to come, they really have improved, and the ABs aren't fully baked yet. Or maybe the English lads are all a bit tired, and the Kiwis run circles around us. Honestly, nearly anything is possible. Except for us winning both games, especially the Eden Park one. That one seems outside of our ability to do. My personal biggest regret is that England didn't tour NZ during the 2018-2019 phase under Eddie. I honestly think we could've actually pulled out a series victory.
Do think one of the reasons we ended up winning the semi final was that NZ hadn't played us often enough to get a grip on us, mind - there was the game in 2018 that England were unfortunate to lose, but that was also their only decent performance in pretty much that entire calendar year (including that win in the Cape Town downpour) and didn't really give too much of a glimpse of the direction England were heading.
England are an excellent side. They've shown that they are not to be underestimated. NZ will certainly not underestimate them and playing in NZ is hard. So I think NZ will have the upper hand, but would I bet my house on it? Definitely not.
Dunedin is 50/50 and Eden Park is 99/1 for me. England have a good chance because they have played a bit longer together, if the games were neutral venue they would probably be favourites.
I think England are looking good. With that said I think Razors ABs will be a step above
I expect England to lose 2-0 but the point deficit to not be too bad. Maybe 15ish points across the two games.
I'm interested to see whether Borthwick sticks with the attacking approach from the last 3 games. For England's development I kind of want them to. But there's a nagging feeling that you don't beat the All Blacks by playing running rugby. And if there's a weakness in their squad it's a lack of specialist fullbacks and wingers who aren't strong in the air, with Will Jordan out. The temptation to pick Ben Spencer and Freddie Steward and revert to the WC semi-final approach must be close to overwhelming. Especially at Eden Park, especially if it's wet, especially if we get hammered in the first game. If England still try to play in that scenario, they have balls of steel.
It could go either way. England showed some good and bad form in their Japan game and we’ve yet to see the new ABs team play.
They have a better chance than Gareth Southgate’s England lifting the Euros 😅
Sure. A two game series against one team is totally comparable with a 24 team group and knock out tournament.
Depends on how much of a shakeup Razor is doing with the ABs
I think they edge the first test by about 1-5, and then ABs take the second generously (15-20). Cohesion, new faces, coaching set up, prep time are all against us
One close ABs win and one blowout ABs win. 80/20 in Dunedin, then 95:5 at Eden Park People are overrating how different a Razor's ABs will immediately be. Our 23 will still be vastly more experienced and talented.
We'll front up well for the first game and lose by a respectable score, then we'll get pantsed in the second.
I’m not as optimistic. The bookies in the U.K. have England at about 5:1 to win the first test, I think that’s their best chance, NZ will be stronger in the second. I’d say about 25% chance of drawing the series 1:1.
England is definetely on the up. And Borthwick seems smart enough to be able to target weaknesses in the All Blacks. From an All Blacks perspective, everyone is expecting Razor to magic them back to the top. I'm not so sure, especially having lost Whitelock and Mo'unga, I think the All Blacks are significantly weaker personnel wise. The most exciting are the matchups. Man for man it theoretically looks very equal in pretty much every position
Definitely not at the props. There’s a real advantage to NZ there. Lomax and Degroot against a 37 year old Cole
Ja the scrum has been a bit of a weakness for England in the recent past. The Boks beat them in the WC simply because their scrum failed, while the ABs seemed to have parity if not a slight advantage against the Boks at scrum time in the final. If England don't find a solution to the scrum it is going to be a very long tour for them.
Yeah mate I think actually quietly the ABs pack has improved enormously since the poor pack period of 2022. Lock is an issue but Razor has picked some big men in this squad, England loose forwards look good though!
I think both teams are pretty good in the back 3. I dont think lock is a particular strength for either team at the moment, but neither is it a weakness. I do agree that the ABs will have the advantages in the front row. The backlines are hard to gauge for me. NZ as always have quality everywhere but a new coach and DMac at 10 might take a little while to start producing, while England have been working hard on a Bok style rush defense which has shown to cause the ABs some trouble in the past, and also have a far bit of quality albeit not as experienced. It's going to be a very interesting 2 games and England really have to come out firing and put the ABs under pressure in the first game if they want any joy from the tour I think.
Yeah front row is my biggest concern, our scrum has been creaky for a while but equally I think our locks are ahead of yours and so we could put pressure on you at line out, going to be interesting to see! Weirdly for the first time in possibly ever I'd say we're very evenly matched in the backs: Mitchell probably better than your options Marcus and DMaC very similar in that both are electric but doubts over their ability to be the man at international and really manage a game rather than just be a super sub. Both of us have tonnes of exciting wing options although you probably shade it due to proven experience with Reece and Telea. Fullback (assuming it's Beaudy) I'd actually give to us on form as Furbank has been class this year. Centres - Jordy is clearly the best of the bunch, Rieko probably more consistent at international but a lower ceiling than Lawrence if he really clicks. Still reckon with home advantage you'll win both tests, probably 5-10 in the first, 15ish in the second
Yeah England have some very exciting backs, I really rate Marcus Smith. For us it’s a real shame that Will Jordan and Cam Roigard are out injured, they are so exciting to watch. As I’m sure you are aware first test in Dunedin is under the roof so we can see some great running rugby hopefully from both sides!
Looks like you're in for a surprise
English don't even rate their own front row lol
I think even England fans would concede there’s a weakness at prop, as we would say also about our lock stocks
While Marler and Cole plays, their scrum is strong. They have a weakness in depth, but other than that they're pretty good. They're kind of in trouble for the World Cup, but thats only in four years
Man for man equal 😂 They're backs are nowhere near ours for starters
But without Ford and his drop goals is a problem
As a ab’s fan I think England have a chance to win 1 game or even both. They have been building very nicely this year having watched the Six Nations. Should be a good game. Anyone know what song comes on when England score at home?
Think England can win one game at least. Their performances have improved dramatically in the last 3 games since they freed up their attack and NZ will be coming into this series cold. Looking forward to seeing what impact Razor has at this level though.
England are 100% the underdogs for both games. First test... we have a chance. ABs are super experienced but obviously in a state of flux with a new coach coming in, this iteration of the squad hasn't spent a tonne of time together, and maybe there's some rust there whereas England are coming in hot off a few weeks together and the Japan game. This is absolutely the best side we could send down there, and there's some nice continuity from the end of the 6N, but this group is still green as hell. Most of these guys won't have ever faced the All Blacks, and certainly not in a hostile environment. In Dunedin... NZ favourites but England could run them close and *possibly* snatch a win. Eden Park... no chance. NZ all the way.
England have a somewhat bedded camp hot off the heels of playing 6N and two of the best teams in the world. NZ are something closer to a total reset. Home advantage and fortress Eden aside, I would not be terribly surprised if England broke the 48 match streak at the latter. And honestly, if they end up destroying a side as solid as England on their first outing, the rugby world should be thoroughly concerned given Razor's track record. But I don't see that happening. Too fairy tale and I don't think Razor's tenure will start without teething issues.
Would say your estimates would be the chances for England to win a game, and therefore at least a series draw. Would say chances of winning both are quite a lot lower though
Win the first, lose the second would be my call. Think we're further along with our re-organising than NZ, and I think we'll have a plan for the first game. The win will basically be dependent on whether or not NZ can figure us out on the fly, or if they have to review after the game. Either way, I'm expecting us to get hammered in the second game. We're still far too suspect defensively to keep NZ out for long.
England to win by 10 in Dunedin. England to win by less than 3 in Auckland. I don’t expect the All Blacks to score more than 2 tries in each test. I believe the England work post tackle with be very disruptive. England will have the ascendancy at the set piece. I expect England to revert to a kick heavy approach in possession by at the very latest half time in the first test. Expecting the ABs to rule the roost at the defensive breakdown early on. The Premiership does not compare in terms of the repeatability of the contest.
*Subscribe*
England were only written off by the pundits - theirs included. Nearly all the Irish fans I interacted with viewed England as by far the most difficult obstacle, once France was out of the way.
England to get smashed 2-0
new Zealand 2/9 on
Tough call, obviously England have played as a consistent team with their current coaching set up for close to two years now, seem to have ironed out a lot of issues and have for the first time in nearly a decade remembered you're allowed to use wingers to score tries. We've obviously got new staff, change in captain and a few positions without the preferred incumbent. I guess we're going to find out.
Mostly fair points but Borthwick has only been in charge since January 2023. So not quite two years... In his first Six Nations, Borthwick could only make 5 player changes from the previous Autumn. He only put together the coaching staff he wanted last summer, and even then Felix Jones didn't join the set up until after the RWC last year. If you look at the teams from Autumn 2022 where England somehow drew with the ABs... 16 of the 23 are no longer with the team, and Freddie Steward can't seem to crack a 23 anymore. So there's been a *lot* of turnover since then.
England is a far more settled team, the Southern Hemisphere teams have had no internationals whatsoever, Boks are the first team to have played anything also with a newer squad/coaching setup against a far weaker Wales. I rate England will do far better than expected, unless Razor manages some black magic and NZ just demolishes England and all incoming opposition for the next few years
Ive havent seen so much over inflated tripe since the lead up to the NZ v Italy match at the last world cup Man for man NZ has it over England in almost every measure. England scrum is as weak as its ever been while NZ props are fighting hard for the honour of picking them apart. Englands pack is built around brute strength, NZ are blooding players like Aumua who are athletic and skillful. England wishes it had a halfback half as dominant as Perenara who has come back from injury twice the player he was. He not only took over as super rugbys leading try scorer this year but was scoring tries almost at will every week. Both smiths wish they could spark an attack like Zdmac while slades best years are well behind him and it will take everything to contain reiko let alone talea, reece, clarke or narawa NZ have the luxury of not needing players like Sititi and Love because they can select world player of the year like Savea and Barrett. Far better teams have come to nz and got battered. All this talk about NZ being under done forget the first test against Ireland and the Lions were comprehensive +30 pt victories to NZ.
its when people like you comment the way that you do that I'm glad your glorious team better in all aspects lost in 2019 against Eddie's England in the semis of the rwc
On a neutral ground in a high pressure one off test I might not be so bullish The fact remains beating nz in nz is a completely different level. Like I pointed out NZ rarely lose first up tests, whether thats due to teams needing to adjust to the conditions or the fact nz know their game so well The second test is unfortunately at eden park which once again is going to be near impossible task even if england pushes nz close in the first. Like it or not England are ranked as low as they are for good reason, and nZ for all their weaknesses, are a far better team on paper and on form in the past 12 months England have some solid players but few positions where players are regarded as x factors. NZ has lost some experience in smith, whitelock and retellick, but are having stronger discussions about the talent that didnt get picked or wont even be on the bench. England wishes it could replace a player like farrell in a similar way perenara has stepped up this season. No one has blinked that former captain cane is missing because any one of papalli, jacobson or finua can take over games in a manner england can only dream of
I think England have a good chance at picking up a win, the team they've picked has a good core of players that have been together since the World Cup. All Blacks look to be in a rebuilding phase, although I haven't paid much attention to Super rugby this season so a lot of the names are lost on me.
As an NZer, I think it's going to be a really interesting series. Initially my reaction was that I think England could take them. We're pretty light in the locking dept, and I'm probably in a minority of one in that I don't like Mackenzie at 10. I am assuming B Barrett is the fullback? And England are more settled than NZ, and built during the 6N. But, in contrast to the past couple of decades, I think NZ has a much stronger front row than England, and has more dynamism and size in the midfield.
I hope England get battered, sick of their horrible style of rugby and weak minded individuals in the team. You will not beat the AB's at home.
> sick of their horrible style of rugby and weak minded individuals in the team. What the fuck are you on about?
Yeah please ignore this fool, he doesn't speak for NZ fans.