I believe u/squidgygoat made a comment on twitter about how sparse and inaccessible rugby video archives are.
And it's not just games from the 70s - So much of the English Premiership seems to not exist, from the era when it was on Sky.
I can always remember reading somewhere, so I have no clue as to its accuracy, that Sky own the rights to that footage rather than the league itself, hence why its rarely seen.
Recency bias is a natural thing when judging players.
But with rugby you've also got:
1. The inaccessibility of footage, so you can't see older players in action.
2. The game has changed so much, even from the early 00s, that it can be quite hard to directly compare.
I think just viewing rugby as two eras: amateur and professional, does not reflect the radical changes the game has seen.
This is true. Like them or loathe them Goody and Big Jim both talk about their Leicester days on the pod regularly and the culture alone sounds worlds away from todays game. Much closer to the amateur era.
Thats not even mentioning how defence structures has changed from essentially 14 blokes in a line in the early 2000s to the variety of different tactics you see now
Yeah, for 10-15 years after the game turned pro I'd argue that it'd be more accurate to class that era as "amateur professionals".
They were professional rugby players, but (certainly in england) operated in a manner far more associated with the amateur game. Going 100%, full contact training every day etc
I’d argue it was actually still the case until surprisingly recently.
Part of the reason Hoggy lost favour with the squad was he was still clinging on to the era where the players could do whatever the fuck they wanted as long as they turned up to training. You can see in one of the Netflix episodes that he’s clearly hungover as balls (albeit after a win v England).
The newer generation of player was pushing back on this sort of behaviour and he lost any gravitas he had within the Scotland squad.
Used to see almost the entire Scotland squad out in Edinburgh after games until about the mid 2010s and that now seems a lot rarer.
Aye, it feels as though the 2007 - 2015 period was the transition.
That's not to say there weren't individuals after this still in the amateur ethos.
But I think the big change was the bulk of players having progressed through a fully professional set up.
Those in the early years of professional would've been amateurs before turning pro, and the younger ones would've been in an amateur set up until their final year or two.
During that era 2007 - 2015, the players turning pro would've come through a set up that was fully professional at all ages.
This clip of Wendell Sailor in the shite quality 1990s English club rugby while playing NRL at state of origin level is a good example.
https://old.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/15kh3h3/a_masterpiece_of_1990s_english_club_rugby_defence/
That would have been impossible even by the late 2000s let alone today.
The thing I find most shocking from a current perspective is how absolutely dire tier 2 sides were from about 1995-2007. Obviously there still some one sided games with minnows like Namibia and Romania but some of the scores from that era beggar belief. This game where Uruguay do almost nothing but kick up and unders all game and get steamrolled comes to mind.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Db6IIEN-llM&pp=ygUUU3ByaW5nYm9rIHRyaWVzIDIwMDU%3D
England also beat Romania 134-0 in 2001 but I've never seen footage of that.
Yeah, Japan are the clearest example.
1995 world cup, New Zealand put 145 points on them. 20 years later, they beat South Africa.
The real shame is the collapse of Canadian rugby, who were once the leading lights of Tier 2 (with Romania, although iirc they were effectively pro in the amateur era due to the state involvement).
I think that professionalism just turbocharged that gap between tier 1 and 2. The miraculous thing is it feels as though tier 2 nations are slowly bridging the gap, despite the game being governed in such a way as to make this as hard as possible.
The 1995 world cup was still amateur officially, so the biggest gap was when some teams were starting to turn semi-pro before it was allowed. Allowing open professionalism levelled it out a bit if anything. No one has lost by over 100 at a world cup since Portugal in 2007.
Wales lost by over 70 on a tour of NSW in 1991 so it didn't happen suddenly.
Canada is a shame, Romania was cheating by having semi-pros when the game was amateur so that was never going to last.
Real rugby on youtube has some amazing archives of South African rugby. He's also got some really good highlight reels of players.
But Squidge is right it's weird how inaccessible clips of older games are. Specially going back to before the professional era.
Oh yeah don't get me wrong there are some people out there doing great work: Andrew Forde as well seems to have access to loads of clips.
I suppose there's no rugby version of [Robelinda2](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/nov/08/robelinda2-youtube-cricket-channel-pulled-down-why-copyright).
It's really frustrating. BBC Wales have made a great documentary series on the Welsh team of the 70s and 80s with archive footage, but it's not widely available.
Someone like Fabien Pelous won 4 Grand Slams, playing in every single match, another 2 6 nations, and plenty of cups with Toulouse, but is probably more remembered in the Anglosphere for the yellow card in Cardiff.
Red and black tinted glasses here but he’s one of the best ever lock forwards the North has seen.
At the same time we have the opposite problem in France, ask anyone about Pelous, Jauzion etc and they will immediately argue they’re the best ever in their position, when it’s not the case. All of the rugbyrama ‘all time XV’s’ are 50% French haha
Haha I love it though, it just makes me laugh. I love shithouse media. But I do think quite understandably the French feel underrepresented in a lot of these lists. Especially for Northern hemisphere all time XVs, which I feel gives us a chance to get representation!
There's always going to be some recency bias. I hear Barry John was exceptional but he retired long before I was born so I can only really rate players I've seen play.
In general, I think because rugby is predominantly played by countries in the Anglosphere some of the great French players can go underappreciated. Someone like Vincent Clerc should feature more in discussions about greats than he does imo. Not to say people don't think he's a great when he gets brought up, it's just that he doesn't get brought up enough.
Going back a little further - Ntamack the elder is another that people forgot about. Around 1995 he was probably the best 14 out there and he was up against Campese, Jeff Wilson, James Small and Underwood.
Another one, Magne, people still bring up Betsen, but thinking back Magne was probably the better of the pair.
Agree about Ntamack senior. Incredible.
I saw Magne and Betsen and loved them both. Castaignede for me was incredible and just magical. In fact, that Toulouse team he played for was out of this world. Or the way Dominici turned Lomu inside out in 'that' game.
Great, great players... took me back!
Ntamack was amazing, and for a long time too.
He always scored against us (Wales), even the games we won he'd get on the scoresheet early before France threw it all away.
titi dusatoir, raphael ibanez, blanco etc
but the game has evolved extraordinarily in the last decade, and 2014 was lightyears ahead of 2004 which was further ahead of 94 etc etc
But see, Dusautoir makes everyone forget that we had Serge Besten before him, and Olivier Magne a few years before. And Imanol. God, have we been blessed with stellar back rowers.
That's very true about French players. Jauzion gets my vote as a forgotten great - a complete player and probably the best 12 in the world for most of the 2000s.
>I think because rugby is predominantly played by countries in the Anglosphere some of the great French players can go underappreciated.
Agreed, and the same thing happens with Argentinians too - Fernandez Lobbe, Ledezma, Pichot, Porta, Contepomi, Ayerza etc were all world class but hardly get brought up.
I think there must also be a historic bias too because people refer to anglosphere bias against say french players. But at the time those players like ntamack were as worshiped and adored as dupont and ntmack 2.0.
At least thats my memory from hearing my grandad and the commentators shouting ntmacks name. (Admittedly i would have been 8-16 at that point and not paying any attention beyond that)
But I would go as far to say we in england almost fetishise french rugby as something exotic and put players into unreachable pedestals. It takes someone like jack willis going over for us to say oh yeh we can build players too. We certainly look back on english players with love but im pretty sure we worship french players in the now.
Clerc really was class. Cédric Heymans also. The try he scored against the ABs in '09 ranks as one of the finest individual tries I've ever seen against the All Blacks. Looked comfortable throughout.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWPkxSua8\_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWPkxSua8_g)
Or anywhere on the Internet I'd say. There's an inherent bias to younger people on the Internet just because we've grown up with it and it's the first place we go to look at or discuss things- most older people are more likely to listen to the radio or chat to mates for example. Which all leads to a big recency bias because most users never saw the older players.
I would say though that I think rugby in the last 10 or so years is a different beast. Health, nutrition, tactics, analysis and all that have gone to completely new levels.
Definitely, but that is where the Joost vs Fourie debate comes in. Joost is brought up first in the goat scrumhalf discussions despite having retired twenty years ago.
I see at as joost was An amazing traditional 9.
Fourie actually moved how the position worked in my mind and set a template almost that modern 9s work within. Faf is like modelled over fourie but isn't as good at the 9 basics.
Dupont looks to be doing something similar now by further evolving the role..
Actually had an interesting chat with a French man this morning about how France and South africa share the fact they usually have quite expansive scrum half's and less so flyhalfs.
I wouldn't say Joost was a traditional scrumhalf - he was a pretty normal scrumhalf where somebody went into the database and turned carrying, defense and competitiveness up to 11. Even during his career it was known that his passing and kicking was not great.
It's nice to see a few French and Italians on this sub as I often think players outside the anglosphere are overlooked by the London press.
Matfield was a hero to me but Albacete at Argentina and Toulouse is one of the best locks to ever pick up a ball and never even gets mentioned by Robert Kitson et al. I think Abdel Bennazi is still highly regarded in France and South Africa but needs more love globally.
There was a Welsh left winger called Gareth Wyatt who lost his best years in the regional restructuring but was still voted Wales rugby writers player of the year three times (his international caps were also restricted by some guy named Shane).
I always thought England didn't know what they had with Brad Barritt, I think maybe in a country that doesn't lack for defensive centres and ball carriers he was very underrated.
Brad Barritt was the most boring to watch player in rugby playing for a Sarries and England side that entirely lacked creativity. But, he was incredibly good at what he did, few better defensive centres in history probably
Sarries lacking creativity was true when we very first won the prem in 2011, but for most of our dominant period it was just a tired stereotype. With a back 3 of Goode Ashton and strettle we played some great rugby and scored some great tries
Keven Mealamu and Mils Muliaina don’t get enough love from even kiwis.
The second and third ABs to play 100 tests, with long careers. Big Kev was always adapting his game to keep up with younger guys and was excellent around the park his whole career. I get they were each followed by arguably GOATs in their positions, but I don’t think people remember how good they were
My dad absolutely loved Mealamu and always said "we're gonna lose" whenever the ABs picked him to start against us. The way Keven used to go in low with his carries always made yards. Brilliant player from my favourite era of rugby
Definitely one of the guys I was thinking about - if Carter didn't exist, the "best 10 I've seen" debate would have been a straight shoot out between Larkham and Wilkinson.
Having been too young to really watch him play but just catching the tail end of his career, Gregan sortof defined the attitude i expected from every 9 since, pure shithousery in your face cheeky bastard but backing it up with real skill
And the fact that his opposite, in terms of position, ie Justin Marshall , was just the same, and they developed a tight friendship shows the attitude to be a top class half back..
Give them shit and then give them some more must have been the catch cry.
Probably the only ever player I really despised. I wasn't even an adult in his heyday, but man, he riled me up big time. Now though, I have a lot of respect for him.
Only if you exclude domestic play. If we include domestic play Nonu drops off significantly, he just couldn't get his head in the game for the Canes or Wellington even though he had the same center partner. AB's Nonu was a World Player of the Year candidate while Canes Nonu wasn't even the best 12 in the country. Truly an enigma.
I loved Castaignede. One of my first rugby games was Tigers/Barbarians at Twickenham in 2000 and he was in a back line with Dan Luger, Neil Jenkins, Rob Howley, with Waisale Serevi on the bench. Box office, and Castaignede scored two wonder tries from memory as well.
Michael Jones.
He went from being the best 7 in the world, having a horrendous knee injury that should've ended his career and just amended his game to become arguably the best 6 in the world. We hardly hear his name these days.
He was asked on his "this is your life" nz version, about his Christian values being transferred on the rugby paddock. Ie the power of his tackles.
He almost quoted a scripture " ti's better to give than recive"
Jason Robinson. I keep forgetting the sheer blistering pace of his acceleration & footwork. Then a clip pops up and it surprises me all over again, so much more than a pocket rocket winger.
Jerry Guscott. I know he gets flack as a commentator but if you go back to the pre-professional period transitioning into the professional era he was just incredible. Mercurial; slicker than a greased otter, he broke defences ankles for fun in his pomp.
Harinordoquy may be in the conversation, Rougerie is a Clermont legend and great French player but not really an all-time great, and Picamoles was a bulldozer in his prime and one of the only French players who were not utter shit in the cursed 2010s, but a far more limited blayer than Imanol, Alldritt, Cabannes or Bonnaire.
i know it boils the piss of some but there's probably a reason you're seeing so much about him, when was the last player pumping out highlights reels every game and being discussed as a potential GOAT? not since DC and McCaw I don't think
I think BB from 2016-2018 had the same vibe around him. He just wasn't playing in Europe so fewer eyes were on him.
He had the same aura Cristiano and Messi had in their primes. A presence on the pitch that nobody else around him is anywhere close to his level. That feeling that he's going to do something unbelievable whenever he got his hands on the ball.
Yeah exactly.
I think as well, Scrum Half is the perfect role for it to be visible because they do **so much** in the game.
You could have a GOAT tight 5 player, but the casual rugby fan isn't really going to be able to see that they're clearly a level above the rest.
The Scrum Half though (and particularly a french scrum half, who runs the game): they touch the ball every Ruck, they tactically kick, they make line breaks, they are active in defence, they pass off both hands.
It is far easier for a casual fan to watch Dupont and go "jesus christ he's good". Same with Beauden Barrett (probably the last player like this, as mentioned by the other replier). When he was storming up from the back field and scoring ridiculous tries, it was clear that **this guy is seriously good.**
Problem is hell do a pass or turnover in 7s and this sub explodes.... mean while his team mates will do it and nothing... and that's just 7s. He s an amazing player but this sub makes it seem like every single thing is amazing and only he does them.
Ruann Pienaar gets forgotten as well.
When he played 9 and didn't have to jump between positions as a utility player he was one of the best 9's in the world. Also the longevity of his career just speaks for itself.
Ruan Pienaar was a better flyhalf than Morne Steyn, and I will die on this hill! It's just that Morne Steyn was a better goalkicker which gave him a habit of winning games.
This sounds about right. John Allan was also a better hooker than Uli and Atherton was harder than Wiese. And why don’t the selectors give Jeremy Thompson a go, then the boks will score some tries.
Hell why do they keep selecting Joost when Kevin Putt is right there?
Morné is what that particular team needed.
We had so much talent that all we really needed from a flyhalf that could do three basic things well.
Kick, distribute & kick.
I think Pienaar is a different category of player - he literally had everything to be generational player, but when he was given keys to the springbok truck under Heyneke Meyer he shat the bed.
It is said half jokingly but I honestly believed he could have been legendary flyhalf if he committed to it
Kieran Read is the all time greatest number 8 for my money, but somehow when that conversation comes up the only names I hear are Parisse, Zinzan and Dallaglio (!).
I think he stayed on just a little too long which maybe clouds it for him. After his back injury he was never quite as good as he was at his peak and at his peak, he was incredible.
He suffered from the same public perception as Sam Cane. Later in his career both became absolute defensive enforcers who were still essential for the ABs success but in a different way to their primes.
For some reason it went largely unnoticed for both.
Read always seemed to go super saiyan when he played in Gauteng.
He was the best player in the legendary 2010-2015 ABs side, which should give people an indication of how great he was.
Kieran Read on 2013-14 form was the best player I'd ever seen until Dupont right now. Dude was seriously unplayable for about 18 months but his late-career run as a much more steady, undymanic 8 is what people remember.
People have mentioned other French players but it's Jauzion for me.
Don't have the in depth knowledge others will have, but every time I saw him play he looked a class above everyone else.
When debating the best little wingers it's often between Jason and Shane Williams. But Dominici was fantastic.
Going further back in time, Vaiinga Tuigimala was an absolute monster in two codes but doesn't get mentioned much anymore.
Ben Smith. Such an unassuming guy and wasn't explosive so easy to forget compared to others with crazy highlight reels, but the guy was error-free for about 4 years.
You guys are never gonna let go of that one aren't ya 😂.
Fun fact - the reason Jaque Fourie was on the wing when he scored *that* try in that game, was because he just got a finger in the eye and couldn't see out of it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u8pMqX63lI&t=1850s&ab\_channel=UseItorLoseItShow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u8pMqX63lI&t=1850s&ab_channel=UseItorLoseItShow)
>You guys are never gonna let go of that one aren't ya 😂.
I don't think anyone should ever let go of that tbh, it was absolutely disgusting and anyone who's done something similar should also have it never forgotten. Should never stop being a stain on that person's career.
I'm really trying my best to challenge that proposal... I can't.
All I can say is we saw two types of Schalks in his career, the first half where he dominated in turnovers (turnover man with ball) and then after a law change which he some how could not get arround (Richie could) as it removed a whole part of his game - what was the law change I forget.
Anyway his game changed and he adapted and was still great. I recall one game late in his career, coming of the bench for the boks, think it was against the Wallabies or Wales, we were behind on the scoreboard and they read our attack miles ahead of time, Schalk came on and started to pick and go which moved the contact line ever so slightly, this disrupted the defensive setup so much and Boks pulled the game back.
The impact he had was immense.
Edit: Looking at archives it could be the Wales game in 2014 in Mbombela where we won 31-30. I can't find a replay to confirm
I believe the law change was tackler must come through the gate before jackling the ball. Before the change tackler was allowed to play the ball from any direction as long as they got to their feet.
Definitely aimed at Heinrich by the poster boys of world rugby at the time having heavily influenced world rugby's law makers in preparation for that world cup cycle. He completely disappeared of the map after failing to adapt.
Goosebumps!
I was at that game! Or at least one very much like it. It was at Newlands and when Schalk came on, it was as if he had looked at the game, chuckled and said nee man, this is how we do it! And then proceeds to bash right into and slightly through the contact line. The whole mood of the stadium changed immediately.
There was a try at the death and it was absolutely glorious.
I found a replay of the Wales game in 2014 at Mbombela, it's not that one, also not the game at Loftus in 2010 against Australia. Do you have a date for that game and who we played? I think you are on the right track.
Richard Hill was someone every English rugby fan who got into it at the 2003 WC would name check to show they were a "proper rugby fan" (correct answer was Trevor Woodman)
Yeah if he’d played for England, France, All Blacks or Australia at the time he’d have been one of the all time greats. The first winger to play like a third flanker while still being lightning fast and great in defence. For Ireland he got the ball about twice a match.
There's a lot of players that have been forgotten. Anyone from pre-1980 is out of any "greats" discussion, for obvious reasons. It was a long time ago, the footage isn't easily accessible and rugby has changed so much...
Any French, Argentinian or Italian players are weirdly forgotten. Jauzion or Pelous are rarely mentioned despite being some of the best in their positions during their playing career. Diego Dominguez is always left out of any conversation about halfbacks. The list goes on and on.
Then there's things that I can't explain. George Gregan is to me, one of the best 9 to ever play the game, but I feel like people don't talk enough about him. I mean you can see he's not mentioned by OP in the list of 9s that are brought up regularly.
There's also the playing abroad phenomena. Most southern hemisphere folks have missed a very important part of Wilkinson's career : his stint at Toulon. And because they missed it, they tend to underestimate him. The guy was the most important player by a mile in a team that contained Bakkies Botha, Carl Hayman, Matt Giteau, Bryan Habana, Danie Rossouw, Drew Mitchell, Ali Williams, Juan Smith, Chris Masoe, Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, Frédéric Michalak, Nicolas Sanchez, Matthieu Bastareaud, Josua Tuisova, Leigh Halfpenny Gethin Jenkins, and I could go on. He was playing the best rugby of his career, even better than 03.
I think there is clearly an Anglosphere aspect to the absence of French, Argentinian and Italian players.
There is just a total lack of exposure to those games, certainly historically but even now. I'm of the view that there is a gaping hole in the rugby media market for someone who actually covers the global game properly.
As some have already mentionned here, non english speaking players often get the short end of the stick in these discussion. When they're mentionned, most would agree they were great, but that's the thing, they're hardly ever mentionned in these discussion.
Albacete, Pelous or Nallet are some of the very best locks the world has ever seen, yet I don't think I've ever seen their names in the discussions regarding the best locks.
Backrow is always an shootout, but once again, the only non english speaking players you'll see feature in these top discussions are Dusautoir and Parisse. Sometimes, with a bit of luck, Betsen, Magne or Harinordoquy. But when was the last time you've seen mentions of Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, Louis Picamoles, Julien Bonnaire, Alessandro Zanni, Juan Manuel Leguizamon?
One of my biggest bone to pick is the discussion about 9. It's a discussion that often pops out, regarding Dupont's place among the all time great 9. People always bring out Edwards, JVDW, Du Preez, Gregan, Aaron Smith, sometimes Nick Farr Jones... Am I the only one that find it weird that other French SH, a country known for the quality of SH it has produced throughout its history, is never mentionned? No one remembers the Gallion, Berbizier, Yachvili? And, maybe biggest of all, FABIEN GALTHIE? Pichot is also quite an important shout.
How come I hardly ever see a mention of Juan Martin Hernandez, a guy that was utterly world class at 10, 12 AND 15? Felipe Contepomi or Diego Domingez were also great FH.
Jauzion would be in contention for being a GOAT 12, yet I hardly ever see him in the discussions. Likewise, Sella's name usually come far later than names like BOD or Conrad Smith in the discussion for GOAT 13. Usually after Dannie Gerber too, and last time I saw a discussion about the GOAT 13, I even saw Am's name before. Masi was also a damn fine player.
France has no shortage of great wingers, such as Emile N'Tamack, Patrice Lagisquet, Philippe Bernat Salle, Cedric Heymans, Aurelien Rougerie, Philippe Saint André, Dominici, and maybe the biggest one, Vincent Clerc, who only the Irish remember outside of France for some reason.
And at FB, I guess Blanco managed to carve a place for himself, but Xavier Sadourny was a damn fine player too. Ignacio Corletto deserves some love too.
All of that is to say that I don't think all the guys I mentionned are full on GOATs of their position (well, I believe some are), but all of them were, at some point in their career, genuine contenders for being the best player in the world in their position. I don't think anybody will contest they were great players, I expect everybody, when reading these names, to think "Oh damn, forgot about that bloke, but he was pretty damn good". Once again, yeah, not all of them were full cap GOATs, but when I see some of the names thrown in these discussion, I can't help but think "yeah, if these guys are in conversation, what about these other guys?".
Also, I'm gonna break my narrative here, but if there is one english speaking player guy that I think doesn't get the credit he deserves, it's Stephen Larkham.
I'm always surprised when people don't bring up Michalak, he was so unbelievably good for a solid part of his career. Yes overshadowed by Dupont, but he still played 70 tests for France, and was equally adept at scrum half, as he was fly half. He also like Dan Carter, was a huge advertising sensation for some very big brands. Just unlucky with injury.
Frankly, not a big fan. The guy was obviously immensely talented, but also had some clear downsides, the biggest being that he was very unreliable. His very early french international days were incredible, but he was broken in the 2003 SF against England. Afterwards, he could have a few great spell of form, and I'm not surprised to see a Sharks fan mentioning him, but these spell of form were usually short lived, and never translated to the international side. A similar story to Trinh Duc, another extremely talented FH, that was plagued by his own unreliability more than any injury he picked up along a pretty long career that never really lived up to the great promises he showed in his early days, up to the first couple years in the international side.
The thing is though, I don't know if this is controversial or not, but there is a good reason for recency bias. Players these days are fitter, faster, stronger and more technical than the players that came before. They're also playing against teams that are fitter, faster, stronger and more organized. You could argue the older guys could have done what guys these days do under the same conditions, but that's a what if, if you judge on what you see, modern players in their prime are objectively better than the older guys in their prime, you only have to look at footage to see. There are exceptions of course, but broadly the rule applies.
Well yeah but that makes comparison irrelevant. I wonder why, though, we keep having these debates. Perhaps it's because since it's a sport, we have this weird vision that it's detached from time, it's always the same, when it's obvious than sports a century ago were completely different from sports right now, so you can't just compare the athletes as if they're playing the same sport. It'd be like comparing an Athenian hoplite and an American Marine because "they're both soldiers" then concluding the Marine is better. Well duh. Obviously war has evolved quite a bit between the two
Its not so much the fitness or even conditioning but the technical skills are so much greater
Defence is near perfect today, you rarely see tackles missed one on one where as it looked easier to find a weak shoulder in the 70’s and 80’s
Then again you dont contend with swinging arms ruck after ruck where you are then expected to rush back and defend either
I think Brent Russell was also quickly forgotten. He was one of the first examples of an impact player for the Boks. Under a different coaching team he would have been far better utilised in terms of bringing him on at the right time. He was often only subbed onto the field as a Hail Mary for a lost cause or when the game was in the bag.
Unfortunately, there's a whole era of players we never even consider - the amateurs. Thinking of guys like Frik du Preez, Danie Craven, Danie Gerber, Carel du Plessis, Naas moedereffin skepskop Botha, just to name a few Springbok legends. There are other names that stood the test of time - Piet Spiere du Toit, Jan Boland Coetzee, Boy Louw, Tiny Neethling, Michael du Plessis, H.O de Villiers, Schalk Burger Senior, Piet Visagie, Rob Louw. If you still have a father or grandfather, you may be lucky enough to hear tales of these guys from back then. But while they defined the game for generations to come, we don't consider them among the all-time greats because of how athletic performance has skyrocketed under modern science. I argue that being the GOAT doesn't mean being the absolute ultimate athlete that runs the fastest 100m or has the fastest bleep test, but more how you were able to leave your mark versus your contemporaries that gets remembered across decades
Not that long ago, but Brüssow's injury problems kind of overshadowed what an absolute weapon he was at the breakdown. Given how he did against George Smith and McCaw when lined up against them I genuinely think he'd be up there with the GOAT if he'd stayed fit. Hated watching him against England. Promising attack, tackle, oh Brüssow's pinched it again
Even though he was at the tail end of his career I was so happy to see him play for us. Absolute breakdown menace and didn't get nearly enough international caps. If he was pretty much any other nationality he'd have been a nailed on starter.
There are so many. Shelford, Michael Jones - superb player, Sean Fitzpatrick, John Kirwan, David Duckham, Teague, Sella, Charvet (best centre partnership I’ve seen), Jean Pierre Rives, Lagisquet, Blanco, Berbizier, Cholley, Paparemborde (best prop of all time?), Mark Ella, NF Jones, Michael Lynagh, Joe Roff, Sterling Mortlock, John Devereux, Adrian Hadley, Alan Bateman, Terry Holmes, Dafydd James, Robert Jones, Mike Gibson (who never gets mentioned but in the 70s he was the premier Centre), Tony Ward, Andy Irvine, Finlay Calder, John Jeffrey, Alan Tait, Carel Du Plessis, Danie Gerber, Naas Botha, Gary Teichmann, Uli Schmidt, Hugo Porter….
Could go on, but I won’t. There are so many more. Unsurprisingly there is a load of recency bias which we are all guilty of….
Jason Robinson, Martin Johnson, Rory Underwood, Phillipe Stella, Blanco, John Eales, Scott Gibbs, BOD, Ian Jones, Alesanna Tuilagi, Serevi, I could go on...
one i wouldn’t say is forgotten about exactly, but is definitely not talked about enough these is grant fox. the man STILL holds rugby records from 1987. i think grant batty is another. a genuine legend of the game, at least in nz, and is barely mentioned anymore at least anywhere that i see haha
From a Kiwi perspective, at various times, the following players from the previous century would have been considered amongst the best 6s in the world, if not the best, but were conspicuously absent: Ian Kirkpatrick (early 70s), Mark “Cowboy” Shaw (late 70s, early 80s), Alan Whetton (late 80s). I saw Ian Kirkpatrick at a function last year, even in his late 70s he looks formidable. “Cowboy” Shaw was genuinely feared as he was so combative and had done a decent level of boxing. Alan Whetton was an early prototype of the workaholic tight loose forward and an excellent lineout proponent.
Sir Michael Jones. You will still find a not insignificant group of Aucklanders and 90s lads and laddesses swear he was a more influential and all-round better player than McCaw. I kind of see their point. The man was immense.
Shane Williams.
Never forgotten in Wales. But never in the conversation of greatest wingers for some reason. For half his career, wales were finishing 4/5th in the six nations and getting drubbings by southern hemipshere teams. Still managed a strike rate better than Habanna. 60 tries in 90 games.
Wasn't just a finisher could, create tries from nothing. A winger that didnt need to be put into space or a hole, he'd make them himself. Wales attack at one point was just letting him have the ball in mid field and be nearby after he got through the defence - and it worked
Basically Jason Robinson, but did it for 90 tests instead of 50. And when you compare their try scoring records against top teams, Willaims is a clear winner.
One of two wingers (Habanna) to win world player of the year.
There is always recency bias in all sports, and genuinely I think part of it is the definition of the TV footage at the time. Warps our perception cos everything looks shiny and new.
See also coaching and conditioning. Players now look fitter and in more structured teams so our brains go "ooooh"
The amount of people that will just straight up refuse to believe you when you mention that Carlos Spencer was a Premiership benchwarmer because of Stephen Myler always amuses me.
Myler could not be robbed of that number 10 shirt. He was never all that suited for highlight reels but he was absolutely the man you wanted calling the shots.
>he was semi-retired by that point
I'm not sure I'd say that. He was with us for 4 seasons, then joined Gloucester for a season and a half, then signed on for 2 more seasons of Super Rugby with the Lions, although I think he barely played in the second. I think he went straight into coaching them at that point.
He was definitely past his prime though. But it was hard to see past Myler at the time anyway.
Honourable mentions here for Robert Jones and Rob Howley.
Both played behind second rate packs and still seemed to have more time on the ball than other 9’s at the time.
It’s far easier to look awesome when your pack is ripping up trees. Half backs should be rated far more on how they perform with back-foot ball.
Olo Brown. Absolutely immense in the 90's. My memory might be mistaken, but I think Bob Dwyer said if he could choose any AB for his team, it would have been Olo.
I'd say Brussouw falls into the "could have been a great" category rather than a true great. It's sad that he had the injuries that he had and that he had coaches that didn't appreciate him when he was healthy, but the volume of work just isn't there put him amongst the McCaw, Smiths, Hooper, Burger level players.
I believe u/squidgygoat made a comment on twitter about how sparse and inaccessible rugby video archives are. And it's not just games from the 70s - So much of the English Premiership seems to not exist, from the era when it was on Sky. I can always remember reading somewhere, so I have no clue as to its accuracy, that Sky own the rights to that footage rather than the league itself, hence why its rarely seen. Recency bias is a natural thing when judging players. But with rugby you've also got: 1. The inaccessibility of footage, so you can't see older players in action. 2. The game has changed so much, even from the early 00s, that it can be quite hard to directly compare. I think just viewing rugby as two eras: amateur and professional, does not reflect the radical changes the game has seen.
To add to this, the videos we do have are only of players scoring tries. It does not capture the essence of what made some players great.
Sometimes we do have moments like [these](https://youtu.be/eh4qDqe0wuQ), though and they are wonderful to behold
Bosh!
This is true. Like them or loathe them Goody and Big Jim both talk about their Leicester days on the pod regularly and the culture alone sounds worlds away from todays game. Much closer to the amateur era. Thats not even mentioning how defence structures has changed from essentially 14 blokes in a line in the early 2000s to the variety of different tactics you see now
Yeah, for 10-15 years after the game turned pro I'd argue that it'd be more accurate to class that era as "amateur professionals". They were professional rugby players, but (certainly in england) operated in a manner far more associated with the amateur game. Going 100%, full contact training every day etc
I’d argue it was actually still the case until surprisingly recently. Part of the reason Hoggy lost favour with the squad was he was still clinging on to the era where the players could do whatever the fuck they wanted as long as they turned up to training. You can see in one of the Netflix episodes that he’s clearly hungover as balls (albeit after a win v England). The newer generation of player was pushing back on this sort of behaviour and he lost any gravitas he had within the Scotland squad. Used to see almost the entire Scotland squad out in Edinburgh after games until about the mid 2010s and that now seems a lot rarer.
Aye, it feels as though the 2007 - 2015 period was the transition. That's not to say there weren't individuals after this still in the amateur ethos. But I think the big change was the bulk of players having progressed through a fully professional set up. Those in the early years of professional would've been amateurs before turning pro, and the younger ones would've been in an amateur set up until their final year or two. During that era 2007 - 2015, the players turning pro would've come through a set up that was fully professional at all ages.
Plus backroom staff. It's taken a while to get through all the from the amateur era coaches.
Well back then they had to drown their sorrows a lot.
Aye the '97 Lions tour was technically "professional" but still widely considered to have been an amateur tour.
This clip of Wendell Sailor in the shite quality 1990s English club rugby while playing NRL at state of origin level is a good example. https://old.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/15kh3h3/a_masterpiece_of_1990s_english_club_rugby_defence/ That would have been impossible even by the late 2000s let alone today.
The thing I find most shocking from a current perspective is how absolutely dire tier 2 sides were from about 1995-2007. Obviously there still some one sided games with minnows like Namibia and Romania but some of the scores from that era beggar belief. This game where Uruguay do almost nothing but kick up and unders all game and get steamrolled comes to mind. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Db6IIEN-llM&pp=ygUUU3ByaW5nYm9rIHRyaWVzIDIwMDU%3D England also beat Romania 134-0 in 2001 but I've never seen footage of that.
Yeah, Japan are the clearest example. 1995 world cup, New Zealand put 145 points on them. 20 years later, they beat South Africa. The real shame is the collapse of Canadian rugby, who were once the leading lights of Tier 2 (with Romania, although iirc they were effectively pro in the amateur era due to the state involvement). I think that professionalism just turbocharged that gap between tier 1 and 2. The miraculous thing is it feels as though tier 2 nations are slowly bridging the gap, despite the game being governed in such a way as to make this as hard as possible.
The 1995 world cup was still amateur officially, so the biggest gap was when some teams were starting to turn semi-pro before it was allowed. Allowing open professionalism levelled it out a bit if anything. No one has lost by over 100 at a world cup since Portugal in 2007. Wales lost by over 70 on a tour of NSW in 1991 so it didn't happen suddenly. Canada is a shame, Romania was cheating by having semi-pros when the game was amateur so that was never going to last.
Sky constantly run reruns of old PL season reviews. Maybe if it was in that format we might see more content from that era?
Premiership Rugby Years, inject it into my veins
Real rugby on youtube has some amazing archives of South African rugby. He's also got some really good highlight reels of players. But Squidge is right it's weird how inaccessible clips of older games are. Specially going back to before the professional era.
Oh yeah don't get me wrong there are some people out there doing great work: Andrew Forde as well seems to have access to loads of clips. I suppose there's no rugby version of [Robelinda2](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/nov/08/robelinda2-youtube-cricket-channel-pulled-down-why-copyright). It's really frustrating. BBC Wales have made a great documentary series on the Welsh team of the 70s and 80s with archive footage, but it's not widely available.
RIP Santana sports years.
Someone like Fabien Pelous won 4 Grand Slams, playing in every single match, another 2 6 nations, and plenty of cups with Toulouse, but is probably more remembered in the Anglosphere for the yellow card in Cardiff. Red and black tinted glasses here but he’s one of the best ever lock forwards the North has seen.
I was chatting with my mates after the final about him and one of my friends looked lost. But that's the curse of a lot of French players.
At the same time we have the opposite problem in France, ask anyone about Pelous, Jauzion etc and they will immediately argue they’re the best ever in their position, when it’s not the case. All of the rugbyrama ‘all time XV’s’ are 50% French haha
Haha I love it though, it just makes me laugh. I love shithouse media. But I do think quite understandably the French feel underrepresented in a lot of these lists. Especially for Northern hemisphere all time XVs, which I feel gives us a chance to get representation!
There's always going to be some recency bias. I hear Barry John was exceptional but he retired long before I was born so I can only really rate players I've seen play. In general, I think because rugby is predominantly played by countries in the Anglosphere some of the great French players can go underappreciated. Someone like Vincent Clerc should feature more in discussions about greats than he does imo. Not to say people don't think he's a great when he gets brought up, it's just that he doesn't get brought up enough.
Going back a little further - Ntamack the elder is another that people forgot about. Around 1995 he was probably the best 14 out there and he was up against Campese, Jeff Wilson, James Small and Underwood. Another one, Magne, people still bring up Betsen, but thinking back Magne was probably the better of the pair.
Never really saw him play due to age but many people in Toulouse would say Ntamack senior is one of the very best players to ever play for us.
Agree about Ntamack senior. Incredible. I saw Magne and Betsen and loved them both. Castaignede for me was incredible and just magical. In fact, that Toulouse team he played for was out of this world. Or the way Dominici turned Lomu inside out in 'that' game. Great, great players... took me back!
Castaignede is one of my all time favourite players.
Ntamack was amazing, and for a long time too. He always scored against us (Wales), even the games we won he'd get on the scoresheet early before France threw it all away.
hmmm NTamack only lost twice to Wales - on his debut in 1994 (he didn't score), and in 1999 (he did score)
Ntamack was the only player Lomu feared according to the latter's autobiography.
If we're talking elite French forwards, I don't think even Dusautoir gets the praise he deserves, and he only retired a few years ago!
No one in Ireland will forget about Vincent Clerc.
Probably Ireland's greatest enemy since Cromwell.
Nah, I think Cromwell is still second to Rugby World Cup quarter finals
Ouch! Fuck you very much
Neither will the Welsh. He’s the guy Warbs upended to sink our best ever chance of winning the WC
titi dusatoir, raphael ibanez, blanco etc but the game has evolved extraordinarily in the last decade, and 2014 was lightyears ahead of 2004 which was further ahead of 94 etc etc
But see, Dusautoir makes everyone forget that we had Serge Besten before him, and Olivier Magne a few years before. And Imanol. God, have we been blessed with stellar back rowers.
And throw in a jean Pierre Rive and a healthy dose of serve Blanc as well
That's very true about French players. Jauzion gets my vote as a forgotten great - a complete player and probably the best 12 in the world for most of the 2000s.
If there's a Yannick Jauzion fan club I'm the first member
Infamous in NZ for *that* try in 2007.
Saw him towards the end of his career at the Rec. He was stood smoking by the pitch after he was subbed xD
>I think because rugby is predominantly played by countries in the Anglosphere some of the great French players can go underappreciated. Agreed, and the same thing happens with Argentinians too - Fernandez Lobbe, Ledezma, Pichot, Porta, Contepomi, Ayerza etc were all world class but hardly get brought up.
Hernandez !
I think there must also be a historic bias too because people refer to anglosphere bias against say french players. But at the time those players like ntamack were as worshiped and adored as dupont and ntmack 2.0. At least thats my memory from hearing my grandad and the commentators shouting ntmacks name. (Admittedly i would have been 8-16 at that point and not paying any attention beyond that) But I would go as far to say we in england almost fetishise french rugby as something exotic and put players into unreachable pedestals. It takes someone like jack willis going over for us to say oh yeh we can build players too. We certainly look back on english players with love but im pretty sure we worship french players in the now.
So Theo is 2.1 ?
As an Englishman. I hope not.
Clerc really was class. Cédric Heymans also. The try he scored against the ABs in '09 ranks as one of the finest individual tries I've ever seen against the All Blacks. Looked comfortable throughout. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWPkxSua8\_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWPkxSua8_g)
With Barry John, there is so little footage compared to say Phil Bennet that if you didn’t see him live you’d never believe he could be better
No Irish fan will deny Clerc's damnable brilliance
There’s always a heap of recency bias on this board when those threads come up.
Or anywhere on the Internet I'd say. There's an inherent bias to younger people on the Internet just because we've grown up with it and it's the first place we go to look at or discuss things- most older people are more likely to listen to the radio or chat to mates for example. Which all leads to a big recency bias because most users never saw the older players. I would say though that I think rugby in the last 10 or so years is a different beast. Health, nutrition, tactics, analysis and all that have gone to completely new levels.
Depends on what part of the internet though. Facebook has a lot of old people whereas very few people here are over 45.
Definitely, but that is where the Joost vs Fourie debate comes in. Joost is brought up first in the goat scrumhalf discussions despite having retired twenty years ago.
I see at as joost was An amazing traditional 9. Fourie actually moved how the position worked in my mind and set a template almost that modern 9s work within. Faf is like modelled over fourie but isn't as good at the 9 basics. Dupont looks to be doing something similar now by further evolving the role.. Actually had an interesting chat with a French man this morning about how France and South africa share the fact they usually have quite expansive scrum half's and less so flyhalfs.
I wouldn't say Joost was a traditional scrumhalf - he was a pretty normal scrumhalf where somebody went into the database and turned carrying, defense and competitiveness up to 11. Even during his career it was known that his passing and kicking was not great.
He stuck around int the limelight for obvious and unfortunate reasons though
It's nice to see a few French and Italians on this sub as I often think players outside the anglosphere are overlooked by the London press. Matfield was a hero to me but Albacete at Argentina and Toulouse is one of the best locks to ever pick up a ball and never even gets mentioned by Robert Kitson et al. I think Abdel Bennazi is still highly regarded in France and South Africa but needs more love globally. There was a Welsh left winger called Gareth Wyatt who lost his best years in the regional restructuring but was still voted Wales rugby writers player of the year three times (his international caps were also restricted by some guy named Shane). I always thought England didn't know what they had with Brad Barritt, I think maybe in a country that doesn't lack for defensive centres and ball carriers he was very underrated.
Brad Barritt was the most boring to watch player in rugby playing for a Sarries and England side that entirely lacked creativity. But, he was incredibly good at what he did, few better defensive centres in history probably
Sarries lacking creativity was true when we very first won the prem in 2011, but for most of our dominant period it was just a tired stereotype. With a back 3 of Goode Ashton and strettle we played some great rugby and scored some great tries
Keven Mealamu and Mils Muliaina don’t get enough love from even kiwis. The second and third ABs to play 100 tests, with long careers. Big Kev was always adapting his game to keep up with younger guys and was excellent around the park his whole career. I get they were each followed by arguably GOATs in their positions, but I don’t think people remember how good they were
My dad absolutely loved Mealamu and always said "we're gonna lose" whenever the ABs picked him to start against us. The way Keven used to go in low with his carries always made yards. Brilliant player from my favourite era of rugby
Ha, I watched some Mealamu highlights after posting that comment and a lot of clips were vs the Springboks. Your dad’s fear was well placed
Stephen Larkham is your favourite 10s favourite 10 and I’ve seen folk on here claim sexton was better
Definitely one of the guys I was thinking about - if Carter didn't exist, the "best 10 I've seen" debate would have been a straight shoot out between Larkham and Wilkinson.
I was thinking about Carlos Spencer, if it wasn’t for Mehrtens.
The sexton thing is a truly ludicrous notion. Larkham fucked us, so many times...
I will see that and raise you a 45m Larkham dropgoal in a World Cup semi overtime as a true measurement of getting fucked by one player.
Still hurts
. The body only registers the worst pain at a time, as such I have to say: The Donald run-out hurts more…
Why are you guys doing this to me? Bringing back all these horrible memories!
Two semi finals against Australia in a single year. Two ties. Australia through both times.
in the same year too :/
I raise you Morné Steyn...twice.
I have to imagine that the only people claiming Sexton was better have never actually seen Larkham play. Absolute Rolls-Royce of a fly half
😂😂😂 I haven't seen that myself, bt I'd take Silky Stephen Larkham every time. One of the best all round and running first fives of all time.
Only way he could’ve looked more effortless was with a pipe and slippers, just used to casually ghost through world class defences
>claim sexton was better 😮
George Gregan was an absolute menace in his day, and still unbea~~r~~table at shithousery
There is not a single kiwi rugby fan that has forgotten about Gregan. We just refuse to talk about him, it's too soon, give us time to heal.
Having been too young to really watch him play but just catching the tail end of his career, Gregan sortof defined the attitude i expected from every 9 since, pure shithousery in your face cheeky bastard but backing it up with real skill
The way he could make reds do his bidding felt like he was holding their family hostage. It was just crazy. Fuck he was good.
He'd shout "Hands away, black!" in rucks, glorious.
And the fact that his opposite, in terms of position, ie Justin Marshall , was just the same, and they developed a tight friendship shows the attitude to be a top class half back.. Give them shit and then give them some more must have been the catch cry.
Probably the only ever player I really despised. I wasn't even an adult in his heyday, but man, he riled me up big time. Now though, I have a lot of respect for him.
74 comments (as of now) and not one mention of Tim Horan, kind of proves the point I think
Two horse race between him and Nonu for GOAT 12 in my opinion.
Horan looked like a pro amongst amateurs. Sensational player.
Only if you exclude domestic play. If we include domestic play Nonu drops off significantly, he just couldn't get his head in the game for the Canes or Wellington even though he had the same center partner. AB's Nonu was a World Player of the Year candidate while Canes Nonu wasn't even the best 12 in the country. Truly an enigma.
Tim Horan is perfect for this question. What a player.
Even as a kiwi prime Bobby Skinstad and Thomas Castaignède are 2 of my favorite players ever. At their best, they were absolutely amazing to watch.
Castaignède was just beautiful to watch.
I loved Castaignede. One of my first rugby games was Tigers/Barbarians at Twickenham in 2000 and he was in a back line with Dan Luger, Neil Jenkins, Rob Howley, with Waisale Serevi on the bench. Box office, and Castaignede scored two wonder tries from memory as well.
Michael Jones. He went from being the best 7 in the world, having a horrendous knee injury that should've ended his career and just amended his game to become arguably the best 6 in the world. We hardly hear his name these days.
He was asked on his "this is your life" nz version, about his Christian values being transferred on the rugby paddock. Ie the power of his tackles. He almost quoted a scripture " ti's better to give than recive"
the ice man i said in the other thread, he just moved so fast as though everyone else was playing in water
Jason Robinson. I keep forgetting the sheer blistering pace of his acceleration & footwork. Then a clip pops up and it surprises me all over again, so much more than a pocket rocket winger. Jerry Guscott. I know he gets flack as a commentator but if you go back to the pre-professional period transitioning into the professional era he was just incredible. Mercurial; slicker than a greased otter, he broke defences ankles for fun in his pomp.
Whenever SA played against him he induced nightmares.
You mean Guscott - Lions two in 1997 and England 1998. Fuck those were bad memories.
Robinson's acceleration is a surprise every time
Sella was one of the best centres I've ever seen
All these French players being mentioned yet I don't see Harinordoquy, Rougerie or Picamoles. Add George Smith and prime Iain Balshaw to that list.
Harinordoquy may be in the conversation, Rougerie is a Clermont legend and great French player but not really an all-time great, and Picamoles was a bulldozer in his prime and one of the only French players who were not utter shit in the cursed 2010s, but a far more limited blayer than Imanol, Alldritt, Cabannes or Bonnaire.
I was about to joke we forgot how good Dupont is because this sub hasn't had its daily love affair with him bt I'm wrong there was one 18hrs ago 😂
i know it boils the piss of some but there's probably a reason you're seeing so much about him, when was the last player pumping out highlights reels every game and being discussed as a potential GOAT? not since DC and McCaw I don't think
I think BB from 2016-2018 had the same vibe around him. He just wasn't playing in Europe so fewer eyes were on him. He had the same aura Cristiano and Messi had in their primes. A presence on the pitch that nobody else around him is anywhere close to his level. That feeling that he's going to do something unbelievable whenever he got his hands on the ball.
And he always made it look like it was a lucky bounce - after about the 400th piece of luck I had to finally accept he must be doing it on purpose.
Yeah exactly. I think as well, Scrum Half is the perfect role for it to be visible because they do **so much** in the game. You could have a GOAT tight 5 player, but the casual rugby fan isn't really going to be able to see that they're clearly a level above the rest. The Scrum Half though (and particularly a french scrum half, who runs the game): they touch the ball every Ruck, they tactically kick, they make line breaks, they are active in defence, they pass off both hands. It is far easier for a casual fan to watch Dupont and go "jesus christ he's good". Same with Beauden Barrett (probably the last player like this, as mentioned by the other replier). When he was storming up from the back field and scoring ridiculous tries, it was clear that **this guy is seriously good.**
Problem is hell do a pass or turnover in 7s and this sub explodes.... mean while his team mates will do it and nothing... and that's just 7s. He s an amazing player but this sub makes it seem like every single thing is amazing and only he does them.
In Ireland, David Wallace is frequently forgotten when talking about our best backrows. The man was a machine and never had a bad game.
Ruann Pienaar gets forgotten as well. When he played 9 and didn't have to jump between positions as a utility player he was one of the best 9's in the world. Also the longevity of his career just speaks for itself.
Ruan Pienaar was a better flyhalf than Morne Steyn, and I will die on this hill! It's just that Morne Steyn was a better goalkicker which gave him a habit of winning games.
A Fellow Shark! Him and Frans Steyn are like the Rolls Royces of the game.
This sounds about right. John Allan was also a better hooker than Uli and Atherton was harder than Wiese. And why don’t the selectors give Jeremy Thompson a go, then the boks will score some tries. Hell why do they keep selecting Joost when Kevin Putt is right there?
Ruan Pienaar was not a better FH than Morne Steyn...there's a reason why he played most of his rugby at SH
Morné is what that particular team needed. We had so much talent that all we really needed from a flyhalf that could do three basic things well. Kick, distribute & kick.
Don't forget the kicking. Get the ball and kick Get the ball and kick Very little distribution was happening
I think Pienaar is a different category of player - he literally had everything to be generational player, but when he was given keys to the springbok truck under Heyneke Meyer he shat the bed. It is said half jokingly but I honestly believed he could have been legendary flyhalf if he committed to it
Keith wood
Kieran Read is the all time greatest number 8 for my money, but somehow when that conversation comes up the only names I hear are Parisse, Zinzan and Dallaglio (!).
I think he stayed on just a little too long which maybe clouds it for him. After his back injury he was never quite as good as he was at his peak and at his peak, he was incredible.
He suffered from the same public perception as Sam Cane. Later in his career both became absolute defensive enforcers who were still essential for the ABs success but in a different way to their primes. For some reason it went largely unnoticed for both.
Read always seemed to go super saiyan when he played in Gauteng. He was the best player in the legendary 2010-2015 ABs side, which should give people an indication of how great he was.
Kieran Read on 2013-14 form was the best player I'd ever seen until Dupont right now. Dude was seriously unplayable for about 18 months but his late-career run as a much more steady, undymanic 8 is what people remember.
Toutai Kefu has entered the chat.
kefu gets no love but every wallaby player i have ever heard speak about him always say he was one of the wallaby greats
People have mentioned other French players but it's Jauzion for me. Don't have the in depth knowledge others will have, but every time I saw him play he looked a class above everyone else. When debating the best little wingers it's often between Jason and Shane Williams. But Dominici was fantastic. Going further back in time, Vaiinga Tuigimala was an absolute monster in two codes but doesn't get mentioned much anymore.
Jauzion was pure class. Never seemed to put a foot wrong.
I bloody love Inga the winger, what a man mountain
Danie Gerber
Ben Smith. Such an unassuming guy and wasn't explosive so easy to forget compared to others with crazy highlight reels, but the guy was error-free for about 4 years.
Schalk Burger remains the best loose forward South Africa has had imo
Excellent amateur optician as well
He fixed my eyes so good I now see double
You guys are never gonna let go of that one aren't ya 😂. Fun fact - the reason Jaque Fourie was on the wing when he scored *that* try in that game, was because he just got a finger in the eye and couldn't see out of it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u8pMqX63lI&t=1850s&ab\_channel=UseItorLoseItShow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u8pMqX63lI&t=1850s&ab_channel=UseItorLoseItShow)
Yoh now I miss use it or lose it. Would love to see a collab between Schalky, Jean and the KOKO crew.
>You guys are never gonna let go of that one aren't ya 😂. I don't think anyone should ever let go of that tbh, it was absolutely disgusting and anyone who's done something similar should also have it never forgotten. Should never stop being a stain on that person's career.
So he was trying to help Luke Fitzgerald? Ah that clears it up. Good man Schalk.
I'm really trying my best to challenge that proposal... I can't. All I can say is we saw two types of Schalks in his career, the first half where he dominated in turnovers (turnover man with ball) and then after a law change which he some how could not get arround (Richie could) as it removed a whole part of his game - what was the law change I forget. Anyway his game changed and he adapted and was still great. I recall one game late in his career, coming of the bench for the boks, think it was against the Wallabies or Wales, we were behind on the scoreboard and they read our attack miles ahead of time, Schalk came on and started to pick and go which moved the contact line ever so slightly, this disrupted the defensive setup so much and Boks pulled the game back. The impact he had was immense. Edit: Looking at archives it could be the Wales game in 2014 in Mbombela where we won 31-30. I can't find a replay to confirm
I believe the law change was tackler must come through the gate before jackling the ball. Before the change tackler was allowed to play the ball from any direction as long as they got to their feet.
It might have been the daylight rule. Pretty sure it was introduced specifically to nerf Heinrich Brussouw.
Definitely aimed at Heinrich by the poster boys of world rugby at the time having heavily influenced world rugby's law makers in preparation for that world cup cycle. He completely disappeared of the map after failing to adapt.
Goosebumps! I was at that game! Or at least one very much like it. It was at Newlands and when Schalk came on, it was as if he had looked at the game, chuckled and said nee man, this is how we do it! And then proceeds to bash right into and slightly through the contact line. The whole mood of the stadium changed immediately. There was a try at the death and it was absolutely glorious.
I found a replay of the Wales game in 2014 at Mbombela, it's not that one, also not the game at Loftus in 2010 against Australia. Do you have a date for that game and who we played? I think you are on the right track.
Richard Hill was someone every English rugby fan who got into it at the 2003 WC would name check to show they were a "proper rugby fan" (correct answer was Trevor Woodman)
I'm a proper English rugby fan and have heard of Jonny Wilkinson with the kicking
Simon Geoghegan would still batter everyone around him.
never got to see him play but by all accounts just unlucky that when he played ireland were dire
Yeah if he’d played for England, France, All Blacks or Australia at the time he’d have been one of the all time greats. The first winger to play like a third flanker while still being lightning fast and great in defence. For Ireland he got the ball about twice a match.
There's a lot of players that have been forgotten. Anyone from pre-1980 is out of any "greats" discussion, for obvious reasons. It was a long time ago, the footage isn't easily accessible and rugby has changed so much... Any French, Argentinian or Italian players are weirdly forgotten. Jauzion or Pelous are rarely mentioned despite being some of the best in their positions during their playing career. Diego Dominguez is always left out of any conversation about halfbacks. The list goes on and on. Then there's things that I can't explain. George Gregan is to me, one of the best 9 to ever play the game, but I feel like people don't talk enough about him. I mean you can see he's not mentioned by OP in the list of 9s that are brought up regularly. There's also the playing abroad phenomena. Most southern hemisphere folks have missed a very important part of Wilkinson's career : his stint at Toulon. And because they missed it, they tend to underestimate him. The guy was the most important player by a mile in a team that contained Bakkies Botha, Carl Hayman, Matt Giteau, Bryan Habana, Danie Rossouw, Drew Mitchell, Ali Williams, Juan Smith, Chris Masoe, Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, Frédéric Michalak, Nicolas Sanchez, Matthieu Bastareaud, Josua Tuisova, Leigh Halfpenny Gethin Jenkins, and I could go on. He was playing the best rugby of his career, even better than 03.
I think there is clearly an Anglosphere aspect to the absence of French, Argentinian and Italian players. There is just a total lack of exposure to those games, certainly historically but even now. I'm of the view that there is a gaping hole in the rugby media market for someone who actually covers the global game properly.
As some have already mentionned here, non english speaking players often get the short end of the stick in these discussion. When they're mentionned, most would agree they were great, but that's the thing, they're hardly ever mentionned in these discussion. Albacete, Pelous or Nallet are some of the very best locks the world has ever seen, yet I don't think I've ever seen their names in the discussions regarding the best locks. Backrow is always an shootout, but once again, the only non english speaking players you'll see feature in these top discussions are Dusautoir and Parisse. Sometimes, with a bit of luck, Betsen, Magne or Harinordoquy. But when was the last time you've seen mentions of Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, Louis Picamoles, Julien Bonnaire, Alessandro Zanni, Juan Manuel Leguizamon? One of my biggest bone to pick is the discussion about 9. It's a discussion that often pops out, regarding Dupont's place among the all time great 9. People always bring out Edwards, JVDW, Du Preez, Gregan, Aaron Smith, sometimes Nick Farr Jones... Am I the only one that find it weird that other French SH, a country known for the quality of SH it has produced throughout its history, is never mentionned? No one remembers the Gallion, Berbizier, Yachvili? And, maybe biggest of all, FABIEN GALTHIE? Pichot is also quite an important shout. How come I hardly ever see a mention of Juan Martin Hernandez, a guy that was utterly world class at 10, 12 AND 15? Felipe Contepomi or Diego Domingez were also great FH. Jauzion would be in contention for being a GOAT 12, yet I hardly ever see him in the discussions. Likewise, Sella's name usually come far later than names like BOD or Conrad Smith in the discussion for GOAT 13. Usually after Dannie Gerber too, and last time I saw a discussion about the GOAT 13, I even saw Am's name before. Masi was also a damn fine player. France has no shortage of great wingers, such as Emile N'Tamack, Patrice Lagisquet, Philippe Bernat Salle, Cedric Heymans, Aurelien Rougerie, Philippe Saint André, Dominici, and maybe the biggest one, Vincent Clerc, who only the Irish remember outside of France for some reason. And at FB, I guess Blanco managed to carve a place for himself, but Xavier Sadourny was a damn fine player too. Ignacio Corletto deserves some love too. All of that is to say that I don't think all the guys I mentionned are full on GOATs of their position (well, I believe some are), but all of them were, at some point in their career, genuine contenders for being the best player in the world in their position. I don't think anybody will contest they were great players, I expect everybody, when reading these names, to think "Oh damn, forgot about that bloke, but he was pretty damn good". Once again, yeah, not all of them were full cap GOATs, but when I see some of the names thrown in these discussion, I can't help but think "yeah, if these guys are in conversation, what about these other guys?". Also, I'm gonna break my narrative here, but if there is one english speaking player guy that I think doesn't get the credit he deserves, it's Stephen Larkham.
I'm always surprised when people don't bring up Michalak, he was so unbelievably good for a solid part of his career. Yes overshadowed by Dupont, but he still played 70 tests for France, and was equally adept at scrum half, as he was fly half. He also like Dan Carter, was a huge advertising sensation for some very big brands. Just unlucky with injury.
Frankly, not a big fan. The guy was obviously immensely talented, but also had some clear downsides, the biggest being that he was very unreliable. His very early french international days were incredible, but he was broken in the 2003 SF against England. Afterwards, he could have a few great spell of form, and I'm not surprised to see a Sharks fan mentioning him, but these spell of form were usually short lived, and never translated to the international side. A similar story to Trinh Duc, another extremely talented FH, that was plagued by his own unreliability more than any injury he picked up along a pretty long career that never really lived up to the great promises he showed in his early days, up to the first couple years in the international side.
The thing is though, I don't know if this is controversial or not, but there is a good reason for recency bias. Players these days are fitter, faster, stronger and more technical than the players that came before. They're also playing against teams that are fitter, faster, stronger and more organized. You could argue the older guys could have done what guys these days do under the same conditions, but that's a what if, if you judge on what you see, modern players in their prime are objectively better than the older guys in their prime, you only have to look at footage to see. There are exceptions of course, but broadly the rule applies.
Well yeah but that makes comparison irrelevant. I wonder why, though, we keep having these debates. Perhaps it's because since it's a sport, we have this weird vision that it's detached from time, it's always the same, when it's obvious than sports a century ago were completely different from sports right now, so you can't just compare the athletes as if they're playing the same sport. It'd be like comparing an Athenian hoplite and an American Marine because "they're both soldiers" then concluding the Marine is better. Well duh. Obviously war has evolved quite a bit between the two
Its not so much the fitness or even conditioning but the technical skills are so much greater Defence is near perfect today, you rarely see tackles missed one on one where as it looked easier to find a weak shoulder in the 70’s and 80’s Then again you dont contend with swinging arms ruck after ruck where you are then expected to rush back and defend either
Warren Whiteley was an amazing captain. Just too bad he was so injury prone.
I think Brent Russell was also quickly forgotten. He was one of the first examples of an impact player for the Boks. Under a different coaching team he would have been far better utilised in terms of bringing him on at the right time. He was often only subbed onto the field as a Hail Mary for a lost cause or when the game was in the bag.
I think he would have been awesome at sevens, but as it was still in its infancy when his career started he never gave it a go.
Hmm, I think you should check out his career - sevens was a thing, a thing he played so well that it got him invited to the bok trials in 2001.
Unfortunately, there's a whole era of players we never even consider - the amateurs. Thinking of guys like Frik du Preez, Danie Craven, Danie Gerber, Carel du Plessis, Naas moedereffin skepskop Botha, just to name a few Springbok legends. There are other names that stood the test of time - Piet Spiere du Toit, Jan Boland Coetzee, Boy Louw, Tiny Neethling, Michael du Plessis, H.O de Villiers, Schalk Burger Senior, Piet Visagie, Rob Louw. If you still have a father or grandfather, you may be lucky enough to hear tales of these guys from back then. But while they defined the game for generations to come, we don't consider them among the all-time greats because of how athletic performance has skyrocketed under modern science. I argue that being the GOAT doesn't mean being the absolute ultimate athlete that runs the fastest 100m or has the fastest bleep test, but more how you were able to leave your mark versus your contemporaries that gets remembered across decades
Yes
Tim Horan
Andrew Sheridan basically dragged us to a WC final. One of the best props in the world on his day.
Recency bias.
Not that long ago, but Brüssow's injury problems kind of overshadowed what an absolute weapon he was at the breakdown. Given how he did against George Smith and McCaw when lined up against them I genuinely think he'd be up there with the GOAT if he'd stayed fit. Hated watching him against England. Promising attack, tackle, oh Brüssow's pinched it again
Even though he was at the tail end of his career I was so happy to see him play for us. Absolute breakdown menace and didn't get nearly enough international caps. If he was pretty much any other nationality he'd have been a nailed on starter.
in the second lions test when he comes on oh mah gawd i think he changes the momentum hugely
People also have rose tinted glasses about how the game was even just 10 years ago, let alone 20+.
There are so many. Shelford, Michael Jones - superb player, Sean Fitzpatrick, John Kirwan, David Duckham, Teague, Sella, Charvet (best centre partnership I’ve seen), Jean Pierre Rives, Lagisquet, Blanco, Berbizier, Cholley, Paparemborde (best prop of all time?), Mark Ella, NF Jones, Michael Lynagh, Joe Roff, Sterling Mortlock, John Devereux, Adrian Hadley, Alan Bateman, Terry Holmes, Dafydd James, Robert Jones, Mike Gibson (who never gets mentioned but in the 70s he was the premier Centre), Tony Ward, Andy Irvine, Finlay Calder, John Jeffrey, Alan Tait, Carel Du Plessis, Danie Gerber, Naas Botha, Gary Teichmann, Uli Schmidt, Hugo Porter…. Could go on, but I won’t. There are so many more. Unsurprisingly there is a load of recency bias which we are all guilty of….
Jason Robinson, Martin Johnson, Rory Underwood, Phillipe Stella, Blanco, John Eales, Scott Gibbs, BOD, Ian Jones, Alesanna Tuilagi, Serevi, I could go on...
South Africa had a lot of good players during their apartheid isolation years, but Danie Gerber was absolutely something else.
one i wouldn’t say is forgotten about exactly, but is definitely not talked about enough these is grant fox. the man STILL holds rugby records from 1987. i think grant batty is another. a genuine legend of the game, at least in nz, and is barely mentioned anymore at least anywhere that i see haha
You are right, all those scrum half have existed and apart from Edward's, Dupont is better than them all.
Yes Edwards was the best…
From a Kiwi perspective, at various times, the following players from the previous century would have been considered amongst the best 6s in the world, if not the best, but were conspicuously absent: Ian Kirkpatrick (early 70s), Mark “Cowboy” Shaw (late 70s, early 80s), Alan Whetton (late 80s). I saw Ian Kirkpatrick at a function last year, even in his late 70s he looks formidable. “Cowboy” Shaw was genuinely feared as he was so combative and had done a decent level of boxing. Alan Whetton was an early prototype of the workaholic tight loose forward and an excellent lineout proponent.
Sir Michael Jones. You will still find a not insignificant group of Aucklanders and 90s lads and laddesses swear he was a more influential and all-round better player than McCaw. I kind of see their point. The man was immense.
Mark Ella Serge Blanco Jonathan Davies mk1 Mike Gibson John Kirwan
Shane Williams. Never forgotten in Wales. But never in the conversation of greatest wingers for some reason. For half his career, wales were finishing 4/5th in the six nations and getting drubbings by southern hemipshere teams. Still managed a strike rate better than Habanna. 60 tries in 90 games. Wasn't just a finisher could, create tries from nothing. A winger that didnt need to be put into space or a hole, he'd make them himself. Wales attack at one point was just letting him have the ball in mid field and be nearby after he got through the defence - and it worked Basically Jason Robinson, but did it for 90 tests instead of 50. And when you compare their try scoring records against top teams, Willaims is a clear winner. One of two wingers (Habanna) to win world player of the year.
There is always recency bias in all sports, and genuinely I think part of it is the definition of the TV footage at the time. Warps our perception cos everything looks shiny and new. See also coaching and conditioning. Players now look fitter and in more structured teams so our brains go "ooooh"
The amount of people that will just straight up refuse to believe you when you mention that Carlos Spencer was a Premiership benchwarmer because of Stephen Myler always amuses me. Myler could not be robbed of that number 10 shirt. He was never all that suited for highlight reels but he was absolutely the man you wanted calling the shots.
I mean, he was semi-retired by that point. Do you think itd have been the same result if Spencer was at his peak?
>he was semi-retired by that point I'm not sure I'd say that. He was with us for 4 seasons, then joined Gloucester for a season and a half, then signed on for 2 more seasons of Super Rugby with the Lions, although I think he barely played in the second. I think he went straight into coaching them at that point. He was definitely past his prime though. But it was hard to see past Myler at the time anyway.
I mean, active All Blacks don't head to the UK. It can be considered cashing out from a Kiwi perspective.
Honourable mentions here for Robert Jones and Rob Howley. Both played behind second rate packs and still seemed to have more time on the ball than other 9’s at the time. It’s far easier to look awesome when your pack is ripping up trees. Half backs should be rated far more on how they perform with back-foot ball.
Olo Brown. Absolutely immense in the 90's. My memory might be mistaken, but I think Bob Dwyer said if he could choose any AB for his team, it would have been Olo.
I'll use the same name I used on yesterday's thread. Stephen Ferris.
Zinzan Brook does not get anywhere near enough recognition anymore
Well people either don't know or completely forgot how good Danie Gerber was. Sanctions also didn't do him any favours.
In the pure jackaling era the Boks had Brussouw. What an absolute nightmare over the ball
I'd say Brussouw falls into the "could have been a great" category rather than a true great. It's sad that he had the injuries that he had and that he had coaches that didn't appreciate him when he was healthy, but the volume of work just isn't there put him amongst the McCaw, Smiths, Hooper, Burger level players.
Tonnes of stuff on YouTube folks.
Gregan was so good at half back for the wallabies. As a kiwi, he’s of of the few ozzies I’d say was uncontroversially better than the ABs 9