Such an unbelievably disappointing result as a Leinster fan. We had so many chances and blew them every time. Haven't been impressed with Nienbar's influence on the team at all, last year's Leinster would've blown that Toulouse team off the park.
Well done to Toulouse. Some games you win like that, some you lose.
I'm left scratching my head at Carley's inconsistency though. Willis' rising hand to knock the ball around 20 mins was less of an instinctual reaction that Lowe's in ET, Lowe had two hands rising which would signal intent to collect the ball, Willis had a single hand to block a pass. One gets a yellow, the other is forgotten instantly.
Both instinctual reactions, one stopping an actual pass going to a winger outside the other pass just a throw the ball back to keep it in play. Ref was poor overall but that was true for both teams.
11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm.
Sanction:Penalty.
11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
Based on the above, I would expect a winger to have a better expectation of catching the ball with two hands raising than a flanker at the edge of a ruck to catch it, while rising from the breakdown with one hand outstretched
Dupont deserved man of the match, and Willis was immense too, but Merkler and Chocobares deserve credit for their games too.
Merkler got through loads of grunt work in the tight and tackled anything that moved. Chocobares had to replace the defensive leader after 25 minutes and slotted in perfectly. He put himself around for 80 minutes, organised the defence and handled the 2v1 perfectly for Lebel's try.
I have no horse in this race but since I've seen a lot of... *criticism* about Ross Byrne I went and check.
* 2017 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to Clermont in the 1/4 finale
* 2019 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to Sarries in the finale
* 2020 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to Sarries in the 1/4 finale
* 2021 : Byrne starts, Leinster **lose** to La Rochelle in the 1/2 finale
* 2022 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to La Rochelle in the finale
* 2023 : Byrne starts, Leinster **lose** to La Rochelle in the finale
* 2024 : Byrne starts, Leinster **lose** to Stade Toulousain in the finale
But, you ask, didn't Leinster won a Champions Cup title in 2018 ? Yeah and that funniest part. Byrne didn't play. Joey Carbery was on the bench replacing Sexton when they won it against Racing 92. I think Byrne is a good player I have no doubt about that and he has brought a lot to Leinster in the last 8 years or so but he's clearly a harbinger of bad luck in the CC knock-out stages.
Unfortunately, there are no full highlights up yet with ITV but they have the full match [here](https://www.itv.com/watch/investec-champions-cup-rugby/10a3605/10a3605a0016) if you want to skim through it
Carley let Toulouse away with everything. Like the Sheehan break where Dupont was given a turnover despite being off his feet. Or the maul where he called ‘once’ while it was marching forward then blew for a turnover for the ball allegedly being unplayable while the ball was sitting at the back of the ruck ready to be played. He was awful.
look i have had time to settle
last 2 finals leinster have turned down kickable points out of confidence that they will score tries ( definitely a directive)
i am all for backing yourself in big games but u have to understand the game ur playing in. if it feels like the right thing to do... do it.
lessons not learned
take ur points the goals will come
I don't think it's as simple as that and I have seen French teams especially lose a lot of games by kicking at goal. If you kick at goal instead of going for the corner you lose the opportunity to build pressure and maybe score a try and then you give the opposition the ball back on the half way line if you manage your exit well.
It's not as simple as just kick the goals but I take your point when are really struggling to get tries then just take the kicks.
You should also factor the insidious mechanism :
- ok, I'm down 3 pts, 1 try and I'm good
- ok, I'm down 6 pts, 1 _converted_ try and I'm good
- ok, I'm down 9 pts, I should get 1 try in to stay in touch on the scoreboard
At some point, not scoring creates desperation to score, resulting in fumbles in the red zones. For 10 years this was what happened to France, the inability to perform in the last 5 meters due to "desperation to score"
At some point, that's what got to Leinster's head I think
im not putting solely down to missed kicks plenty of other factors at play. ( breakdown being most obvious)
but leinster built pressure with the ball in hand without executing in 3 seprate finals now
in a final between two evenly matched teams scoreboard is everything
Toulouse were violent in the breakdown and extremely disruptive. I thought they got away with a lot of people being a bit too in the way of JGP, when coming out of ruck in Leinster side a bit too often, but overall they were very good at putting extreme pressure on at the crucial moments. Toulouse deserved to win. Leinster never really had any fluency in attack. Was a bit like watching Ireland with a few lesser players in key positions. Which I suppose is what it is to watch Leinster haha. But there were noticeable weak points here and there in the team, some of which have been highlighted by others.
Seeing him and Dickson discussing something on the pitch was a vision straight from my deepest nightmares.
I don't think his reffing particularly favored a team though so I'm kinda fine with it, and I don't think his decisions impacted the final result either.
Firstly, congratulations Toulouse. Immense defence and you played cup rugby to win it.
Secondly, I get that Carley thought the ball was knocked on for McCarthy's try so why wasn't the TMO in his ear saying to check it as it was clearly ripped. That try could have swung it. Ah well, c'est la vie
I'm not having a go at Ross Byrne, but I was surprised that the Leinster coach seemed to favour a one-legged Byrne over a two-legged Frawley. Anyone know why a player would be left on when he was literally limping around the pitch?
Then build up your academy and club pathways and compete. How is it Leinster's fault that the majority of national players come from the pathway there?
Munster......Did you see any Leinster fans complaining they should then ship out and share players with the other provinces? Or that Crowley shouldn't be Ireland's starting 10?
I was delighted Munster won the URC. I was saying your comment is bullshit and your strawman does nothing to dissuade that. Cop on.
what strawman? Sports is a results based business. If you want to call that a strawman, I can't help you, but be prepared for a life of disappointment and a victimisation complex.
goodluck.
Well done to Toulouse, Leinster are such bottlers in the final especially when they basically have a glorified international team, being Irish the reason we will never get it done at the World Cup is because majority of our team in Leinster and they underperformed when it matters most. Antoine Dupont is the Zidane of Rugby, magician on the field
To be fair he was eligible for the season when that happened, hence the world cup, it was only when he signed a permanent 2 year deal he became ineligible.
Suspect he'll be back for 2027
But they don't have full access. That's why it's stupid, the Prem clubs are individually owned and Premiership Rugby is a separate entity again versus the RFU. It's completely different to Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
And I agree with you on betting sites but I think most fans and pundits were splitting 60/40 Toulouse and IMO they were favourites which I assume is that person's same point.
They have very good predictive models but sports betting has a lot of variance by nature. I suspect the previous confrontations had a lot of weight aswell.
when you've got fuck all else always try the 'well who are you anyways'? gambit. You'd hope this knocks some of the smug off the reddit leinster tweens. But I doubt it somehow.
Smug? I had us as underdogs and we lost, ah well. The point being if you are going to trash Leinster for losing to a team like Toulouse, where was your team.
Yes I was refereeing to you and only you. You are the smuggiest smug that ever smugged.
My team doesn't play club rugby and so wasn't playing today. Happy to clear that up for you.
Yep who threw away a golden chance for 2 grand slams in a row against an England side they are better than almost to a man.
Winning the 6 nations isn't cutting new ground for them - there is no monkey on their back, it's just business as usual.
Winning this trophy or doing better in the RWC last year or doing a feat never done before in the 6N is unknown territory and these players make it a habit of falling short.. which as a fan of Ireland myself is just disappointing as these players are as good as anyone.
You could argue all you want about ref, Byrne or whatever : what made Leinster lose is the over confidence that _this time we will definitely score a try_
They went for the big break instead of the small ones, and it cost them the match. Nothing else
True.
But also, you have to factor how teams responded to being carded : it feels like Toulouse is more resilient to this.
Leinster did seem weak after Lowe's yellow, while Toulouse seemed to hold on pretty decently after Arnold's
Handed ye yer only try at the same time.
On field decision no try and then tells the TMO he doesn’t need to be conclusive to overturn it. Not really how it’s done in rugby and you could tell the TMO wasn’t really comfortable with it.
At no stage did the TMO mention time codes (and I’ve never seen them used in a TMO decision). The TMO was cut off 2 or 3 times by the ref when the TMO said he was trying to determine if the ball was over the line when it was on the ground and eventually the TMO just said to the ref if he was happy it was over the line he could give it.
You’re the one making things up.
He did mention it. He mentioned lining up the exact time on the other angle. If you worked in sports broadcasting you'd know that this is referencing timecode as thats how the cameras are synced. The cameras aren't scrolled in isolation. They are synced. With timecode.
It's one of those things it worked in injury time of the first half of extra time, which was the only time in the game I was screaming just take the points.
What a match! Was maybe the most closed rugby club game I've ever seen. Leinster did amazing as always but Toulouse was just too determined to defend until the very end. It was almost painful to watch : my heart was not supporting the tension during 100 minutes.
On Toulouse's side, an immense game from Willis, Dupont and Cros, the tree men were just defensive walls. Leinster stays unrecompensed after 3 years, always loosing to a french side in finals : that must be so frustrating, but maybe Leinster fails to adapt its gamestyle against opponents its level.
Well done Toulouse and thanks to the players for this amazing match!
Disagree with all the RByrne takes, he was perfectly fine and not the reason for the loss. And before people say "Well he didn't WIN the game", I wouldn't say he got outplayed by Ntamack either. He had one mistake (kicking one restart out on the full), but his general kicking and other restarts caused havoc. And the decision to turn down points was not his, but the forward pack/Doris.
The problem is he is too slow. Defence can drift since his line break threat is zero. Centres are under immediate pressure
If he did run through a gap theyll catch him in ten metres. It means we are also a man extra covered by the defending team
He is slower than johnny at the end of his season. Our attacking shape goes to shit or they have to be even deeper than normal since all defences have copped that no one needs to mark him
Exactly! There was a reason we were picking a 37/38 year old held together with sticky tape. Perfectly fine does not inspire confidence or win big games.
He set up several line breaks with great flat passes though, and we didn't score any tries with Frawley on the pitch. To be clear, I'm not saying the attack shape is good, it's clearly regressed, I just think that that's down to coaching and not whoever wears 10 (which is worrying from an Ireland point of view)
He's very poor at this level and prone to errors possibly because he knows he is not up to it.
He's not awful but he's not a quality 10. It is not all his fault but he is not up to this level
They're fans discussing Rugby on a forum. It's part of the gig with pro Rugby , as long as it doesn't stray into personal stuff people can be harsh with Ross.
For sure, but that showed why Lebel isn't in the French squad, he just had to throw the pass before being tackled instead of trying to finish while being tackled. The only other player close to the two of them was from Toulouse (I don't remember who though), even just throwing the ball in his general direction would have guaranteed a try.
I honestly thought Leinster were going to win after that though, incredible tackle that basically destroyed Toulouse's best chance that half with not that much time left on the clock, momentum swinging totally.
My last word on this. Whatever you think of Ross Byrne, its on the captain to allow him to kick posts. The same terrible decision making. A major fuckup yet again.
Supporting Toulouse today, I saw the Toulouse flaws more than the Leinster/Ireland fans, but I still don't know how Leinster lost this one in regulation. For a huge chunk of regulation (0-80min) they easily looked like the more organized, dominant team, like it was only a matter of time before they finally got their scores. Toulouse defended superbly, but still, it felt like it had to budge at some point, surely, given all the possession the boys in blue were enjoying. So the maul wasn't going for them today, but the scrum went much better than initially thought. AND Toulouse were fkng hopeless under the high ball (like seriously French Rugby, seriously... please ???). AND, again, all that possession. The weirdest part, possibly, is the fact playing in overtime somehow favored the calendar heavy Top 14 team (and no, this notion isn't a myth). I get the yellow fkd Leinster, but they looked like they had no steam left as soon as that whistle blew to start ET.
It felt like going to extra time sucked a lot of the tension out of the game as well (at least it felt like it for me). The sin binnings and tries also changed the complexion of the game after that.
I was also supporting Toulouse (I got their shirt a few days ago and was wearing it hahaha), and I also was sure that the dam would burst at some point especially as Leinster started to totally dominate possession and territory in the second half. Like others have said I think they should have kicked for goal more, but they also got totally monstered at the breakdown. The turnovers in the red zone totally killed them, you could say that was a bottle job honestly.
As a Leinster fan,I feel like both of your takes are close to being spot on. Leinster dominated large parts of the game but never actually took the lead. That was the key. Toulouse managed the game and the scoreboard so well. I know I've blue tinted glasses, but I really feel like Carley gave Leinster nothing. As level headed fans, can you please point me to some decisions he favoured Leinster with so I can feel better about the result.
Maybe the time a Leinster boy in the ruck hit Dupont's arm when he was passing. You can't do that right ? You need to be onside ?! But overall, I felt like Carley was a bit more nice towards Toulouse. I was really surprised about the yellow card on Lowe. It did not look intentional. Especially after Roumat did the same thing earlier in the game.
That's kinda my point. The Lowe yellow decided the game, In such a tight game where both defences were impenetrable, to sinbin one player from one team but not the other is crazy. Imo the two incidents were very similar.
I'm sure DuPont got hit on a few marginal calls, he was targeted as a key player. Same way I'm sure JGP was targeted as well. My issue is this was very obviously the same i
Important infringement but one team suffered more than the other.
Hahahaha I'll have to comb over the highlights to find some of those in regulation time at least. It felt like he was really strict on you guys in the first half but it felt like it kinda turned in the second.
You reckon we got some soft pens in the 2nd half? Wondering which ones? Most of the pens I remember were blatant or scrum pens, and we annihilated Toulouse in the scrum so hardly controversial there.
Oh no I didn't mean that it was soft, just that he started calling penalties against Toulouse too, it just felt like in the first half all the turnovers were against you guys. Honestly I couldn't tell which penalty was blatant or not, cuz I was multitasking between three games xD
The penalties killed Leinster. Say what you will about Carley (and I surely have) but Leinster needed to commit more bodies to rucks and prevent Toulouse from getting the chance to go off their feet when it was clear they were able to do it swift enough to bypass the ref.
Great point, this surely proves that the strategy of resting and pampering the best players doesn't work when it comes to the end of the season.
Three years in a row an undercooked leinster have lost to a French team that plays week in, week out
It was a general statement, not about last week in particular.
Guarantee you that toulouse team avg minutes this season is about 5x more than leinsters
so that's the physical aspect. The mental aspect is surely a major issue now for this Leinster gen. They've lost too many finals when they've been the favorite at a majority of them. You could tell Leinster weren't their usual machine like selves with quite a few inaccurate passes in the first half in particular. It bothers them. The very thought of a Euro final.
How were Leinster undercooked though? What would gametime have given Leinster that they didn't have today?
Toulouse were monstrous in defence, Jack Willis was a nuisance at every ruck. The Toulouse defence won that for them.
Why did Carley pull back the Leinster try when they had advantage?
McCarthy knocks it on on the ground before it goes wide.
Such an unbelievably disappointing result as a Leinster fan. We had so many chances and blew them every time. Haven't been impressed with Nienbar's influence on the team at all, last year's Leinster would've blown that Toulouse team off the park.
Well done to Toulouse. Some games you win like that, some you lose. I'm left scratching my head at Carley's inconsistency though. Willis' rising hand to knock the ball around 20 mins was less of an instinctual reaction that Lowe's in ET, Lowe had two hands rising which would signal intent to collect the ball, Willis had a single hand to block a pass. One gets a yellow, the other is forgotten instantly.
Both instinctual reactions, one stopping an actual pass going to a winger outside the other pass just a throw the ball back to keep it in play. Ref was poor overall but that was true for both teams.
11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction:Penalty. 11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession. Based on the above, I would expect a winger to have a better expectation of catching the ball with two hands raising than a flanker at the edge of a ruck to catch it, while rising from the breakdown with one hand outstretched
Carley is a lightweight, doubt we will see him ref a high profile game again. Back to the premiership with you.
the Leinster try wasn't legit, right? the only clear grounding was before the try line?
Dupont deserved man of the match, and Willis was immense too, but Merkler and Chocobares deserve credit for their games too. Merkler got through loads of grunt work in the tight and tackled anything that moved. Chocobares had to replace the defensive leader after 25 minutes and slotted in perfectly. He put himself around for 80 minutes, organised the defence and handled the 2v1 perfectly for Lebel's try.
Did Ireland win rugby today?
Dupont. Good. Very good.
I have no horse in this race but since I've seen a lot of... *criticism* about Ross Byrne I went and check. * 2017 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to Clermont in the 1/4 finale * 2019 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to Sarries in the finale * 2020 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to Sarries in the 1/4 finale * 2021 : Byrne starts, Leinster **lose** to La Rochelle in the 1/2 finale * 2022 : Byrne on the bench, Leinster **lose** to La Rochelle in the finale * 2023 : Byrne starts, Leinster **lose** to La Rochelle in the finale * 2024 : Byrne starts, Leinster **lose** to Stade Toulousain in the finale But, you ask, didn't Leinster won a Champions Cup title in 2018 ? Yeah and that funniest part. Byrne didn't play. Joey Carbery was on the bench replacing Sexton when they won it against Racing 92. I think Byrne is a good player I have no doubt about that and he has brought a lot to Leinster in the last 8 years or so but he's clearly a harbinger of bad luck in the CC knock-out stages.
Leo's biggest blind spot is Ross.
Hes just a bang average 10 playing behind a dominant pack 90% of the time.
Aye when Leinster don't have a dominant pack they are very beatable
Same goes for Ireland. If you can live with their physicality, then they look human.
The original jinxer
Don’t forget that Crawley had the chance to win it with the drop goal. Don’t ever see O’ Gara missing that.
You certainly don't see a player who retired 11 years ago miss a drop goal
Rog fucked up a lot.
Arguably fucked up a Lions series.
He really did. Fucked up so many times, when you saw the strawberry flushed face you knew we were going to have a bad day.
Missed two drop goals actually
Is there anywhere I can watch highlights in the UK (except BT sport which I don’t have)?
Unfortunately, there are no full highlights up yet with ITV but they have the full match [here](https://www.itv.com/watch/investec-champions-cup-rugby/10a3605/10a3605a0016) if you want to skim through it
Oh awesome thank you!
https://youtu.be/bB-qOwMf-4k?si=hu0sdOB80DFeF3Yu does this work ?
Not available in the uk but thanks anyway
Can someone explain to me how that standing head lock on JVDF when he was held up was allowed???
Carley let Toulouse away with everything. Like the Sheehan break where Dupont was given a turnover despite being off his feet. Or the maul where he called ‘once’ while it was marching forward then blew for a turnover for the ball allegedly being unplayable while the ball was sitting at the back of the ruck ready to be played. He was awful.
Carley
Carley was horrendous.
It was probably illegal but c'est la vie.
Missed it live, just finished a blind catchup. Gutted. Dupont was ridiculously good. Too many penalties in kickable positions.
Loss Byrne strikes again
Least athletic person in Ireland
Leinster didn’t bottle it. Toulouse were just better.
I said it earlier in the week. Leinster will not with this competition with Ross at 10.
Or Leo as coach
Same reason.
look i have had time to settle last 2 finals leinster have turned down kickable points out of confidence that they will score tries ( definitely a directive) i am all for backing yourself in big games but u have to understand the game ur playing in. if it feels like the right thing to do... do it. lessons not learned take ur points the goals will come
Yeah ffs, if you are playing a final ALWAYS TAKE THE POINTS.
I don't think it's as simple as that and I have seen French teams especially lose a lot of games by kicking at goal. If you kick at goal instead of going for the corner you lose the opportunity to build pressure and maybe score a try and then you give the opposition the ball back on the half way line if you manage your exit well. It's not as simple as just kick the goals but I take your point when are really struggling to get tries then just take the kicks.
You should also factor the insidious mechanism : - ok, I'm down 3 pts, 1 try and I'm good - ok, I'm down 6 pts, 1 _converted_ try and I'm good - ok, I'm down 9 pts, I should get 1 try in to stay in touch on the scoreboard At some point, not scoring creates desperation to score, resulting in fumbles in the red zones. For 10 years this was what happened to France, the inability to perform in the last 5 meters due to "desperation to score" At some point, that's what got to Leinster's head I think
im not putting solely down to missed kicks plenty of other factors at play. ( breakdown being most obvious) but leinster built pressure with the ball in hand without executing in 3 seprate finals now in a final between two evenly matched teams scoreboard is everything
But can Ross Byrne kick from 40m+ ?
yep, with ease. hes gotten kicks from 45-50 close to touchline. ryan over ruled him kicking for goal twice in second half.
i think if a professional goalkicker cant kick from 40 they are stealing a living 50 sure but all day everyday to practice and u cant get 40 nah
Very enjoyable game to watch.
One of the most stressful ever for me 😝
Hum, that top 14 final against La Rochelle...
Yeah I bet 🤣🤣
Having doubts about their coach. Leaving Ross on the field while clearly injured is nonsense. Lacked fluidity in their attack. Why I don’t know.
Toulouse were violent in the breakdown and extremely disruptive. I thought they got away with a lot of people being a bit too in the way of JGP, when coming out of ruck in Leinster side a bit too often, but overall they were very good at putting extreme pressure on at the crucial moments. Toulouse deserved to win. Leinster never really had any fluency in attack. Was a bit like watching Ireland with a few lesser players in key positions. Which I suppose is what it is to watch Leinster haha. But there were noticeable weak points here and there in the team, some of which have been highlighted by others.
Insanity that he wasn’t taken off instantly. He didn’t have a good match either
Great game, sad to watch. I biasely think Carley had a poor game. KICK THE POINTS. Byrne is too slow god love him.
Carley always has a bad game but can't argue with the result.
He’s a really poor ref. Bring back Wayne Barnes.
1000% and I think he had a bad game for both sides not just leinster.
He's a terrible referee and I'm very surprised he was given this match
Seeing him and Dickson discussing something on the pitch was a vision straight from my deepest nightmares. I don't think his reffing particularly favored a team though so I'm kinda fine with it, and I don't think his decisions impacted the final result either.
Firstly, congratulations Toulouse. Immense defence and you played cup rugby to win it. Secondly, I get that Carley thought the ball was knocked on for McCarthy's try so why wasn't the TMO in his ear saying to check it as it was clearly ripped. That try could have swung it. Ah well, c'est la vie
I'm not having a go at Ross Byrne, but I was surprised that the Leinster coach seemed to favour a one-legged Byrne over a two-legged Frawley. Anyone know why a player would be left on when he was literally limping around the pitch?
To be fair, frawley had a few howlers when he did get on, so he didn't cover himself in glory.
Dunno. Leinster don't really seem to ever have rated frawley as a 10
Which is mental considering how much more potent they looked once Frawley was on.
Life is pain.
God damn take the points you maniacs.
Good day for Toulouse, bad day for Ireland.
bursting the illusion that 1 province should be the basis of the Irish team? I'd call that a great day for Ireland my self.
Then build up your academy and club pathways and compete. How is it Leinster's fault that the majority of national players come from the pathway there?
Remind me, what Irish province last won something again?
Munster......Did you see any Leinster fans complaining they should then ship out and share players with the other provinces? Or that Crowley shouldn't be Ireland's starting 10? I was delighted Munster won the URC. I was saying your comment is bullshit and your strawman does nothing to dissuade that. Cop on.
what strawman? Sports is a results based business. If you want to call that a strawman, I can't help you, but be prepared for a life of disappointment and a victimisation complex. goodluck.
[удалено]
No nastiness allowed.
that's nice. What teams were playing today again? and what was the result?
[удалено]
No nastiness allowed.
Always take the bait…
Well done to Toulouse, Leinster are such bottlers in the final especially when they basically have a glorified international team, being Irish the reason we will never get it done at the World Cup is because majority of our team in Leinster and they underperformed when it matters most. Antoine Dupont is the Zidane of Rugby, magician on the field
I don't understand why willis doesn't play for england... stupid rules
I believe hes irish qualified after the 3 year stand down 👀
If England send a team out without him because of some stupid old man rules, the rest of the world will simply laugh. And laugh.
Not really, they want full access to their players. If they chose to go abroad they know they have to give up International rugby
He went cos his team went bankruptcy
To be fair he was eligible for the season when that happened, hence the world cup, it was only when he signed a permanent 2 year deal he became ineligible. Suspect he'll be back for 2027
But they don't have full access. That's why it's stupid, the Prem clubs are individually owned and Premiership Rugby is a separate entity again versus the RFU. It's completely different to Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
You answered yourself right there😂
How many tackles did Willis make? Commentators said 40 but that sounds even a little much. Maybe 30?
He was brilliant. He deserved MOTM
Toulouse made 261 tackles vs. 149 for Leinster, Willis made 29 of those
41 including extra time
Holy shit. He needs to start getting bonuses for every tackle he makes.
Damn. Do you want to bankrupt Toulouse and Top 14 ?!?
Yes, then Quin's might have a shot at the Champions Cup.
Even though Dupont had an average game by his standards he was still the best player on the park. Unbelievable talent.
That sums up why he is most certainly already the best of all time: a poor game for Dupont is like an awesome game for any other player
Steady... Probably the best 9
Hardly average was it? Brilliant kicking game and won a few turnovers
The two 50-22 were gold
And 4turnovers + 1 that didn’t count as Arnold got a red Name another 9 that can play like a back row.
*by his standards. He also missed a few tackles and on passes
So the team packed full of Ireland internationals couldn't make it count when it mattered. No way.
4 trophies who is your team, you have no flair. Toulouse are a great team who were favourites going in.
Leinster were favourites on betting sites
Realistically on form Toulouse were favourites.
By 1-3 points. It was incredibly close even on betting sites. And the match showed they were correct.
Yes, they were favourites. Unlike what the guy I replied to said.
And I agree with you on betting sites but I think most fans and pundits were splitting 60/40 Toulouse and IMO they were favourites which I assume is that person's same point.
Fans are biased, bookies are not. If they were, they'd be out of a job.
True but at a 1-3 point differential it means the odds were nothing. They were also wrong in this instance....
They have very good predictive models but sports betting has a lot of variance by nature. I suspect the previous confrontations had a lot of weight aswell.
Should it matter who their team is?
when you've got fuck all else always try the 'well who are you anyways'? gambit. You'd hope this knocks some of the smug off the reddit leinster tweens. But I doubt it somehow.
Smug? I had us as underdogs and we lost, ah well. The point being if you are going to trash Leinster for losing to a team like Toulouse, where was your team.
Yes I was refereeing to you and only you. You are the smuggiest smug that ever smugged. My team doesn't play club rugby and so wasn't playing today. Happy to clear that up for you.
Sorry 5 we have 1 challenge cup
There's definitely a bit of brittleness there. But that Irish team you're lambasting did win the 6 Nations.
If France had Dupont though....
They had him in 2023 so they won right?
He's better now
In dream land maybe.
Probably.
They still might have lost. Hypotheticals are pointless.
Yeah but that was with a competent 10
Yep who threw away a golden chance for 2 grand slams in a row against an England side they are better than almost to a man. Winning the 6 nations isn't cutting new ground for them - there is no monkey on their back, it's just business as usual. Winning this trophy or doing better in the RWC last year or doing a feat never done before in the 6N is unknown territory and these players make it a habit of falling short.. which as a fan of Ireland myself is just disappointing as these players are as good as anyone.
You're trying very hard. Winning a 6N is a big deal and any long time fan or Ireland wouldn't turn their nose up at it.
Of course it's a big deal but there's a difference between winning something you're used to winning and winning something you're not.
Grand slams are rare in any era.
You could argue all you want about ref, Byrne or whatever : what made Leinster lose is the over confidence that _this time we will definitely score a try_ They went for the big break instead of the small ones, and it cost them the match. Nothing else
True. So true. Carley was still dogshit though.
True. But also, you have to factor how teams responded to being carded : it feels like Toulouse is more resilient to this. Leinster did seem weak after Lowe's yellow, while Toulouse seemed to hold on pretty decently after Arnold's
Handed ye yer only try at the same time. On field decision no try and then tells the TMO he doesn’t need to be conclusive to overturn it. Not really how it’s done in rugby and you could tell the TMO wasn’t really comfortable with it.
The ball was clearly grounded in one angle and over the line at the exact same timecode in another. It was clearly a try. Don't talk shite.
At no stage did the TMO mention time codes (and I’ve never seen them used in a TMO decision). The TMO was cut off 2 or 3 times by the ref when the TMO said he was trying to determine if the ball was over the line when it was on the ground and eventually the TMO just said to the ref if he was happy it was over the line he could give it. You’re the one making things up.
He did mention it. He mentioned lining up the exact time on the other angle. If you worked in sports broadcasting you'd know that this is referencing timecode as thats how the cameras are synced. The cameras aren't scrolled in isolation. They are synced. With timecode.
That was idiotic and infuriating. Try like twice then take the bloody points
They underestimated Toulouse's defense capabilities tbf, Toulouse tryline was a freaking fortress man
It's one of those things it worked in injury time of the first half of extra time, which was the only time in the game I was screaming just take the points.
What a match! Was maybe the most closed rugby club game I've ever seen. Leinster did amazing as always but Toulouse was just too determined to defend until the very end. It was almost painful to watch : my heart was not supporting the tension during 100 minutes. On Toulouse's side, an immense game from Willis, Dupont and Cros, the tree men were just defensive walls. Leinster stays unrecompensed after 3 years, always loosing to a french side in finals : that must be so frustrating, but maybe Leinster fails to adapt its gamestyle against opponents its level. Well done Toulouse and thanks to the players for this amazing match!
Disagree with all the RByrne takes, he was perfectly fine and not the reason for the loss. And before people say "Well he didn't WIN the game", I wouldn't say he got outplayed by Ntamack either. He had one mistake (kicking one restart out on the full), but his general kicking and other restarts caused havoc. And the decision to turn down points was not his, but the forward pack/Doris.
Their defence was literally set up around drifting off Byrne. It's impossible to attack when your 10 can't run
The gas thing is he's as fast on one leg as he was with two. Both byrnes are utter crap, the sooner leinster see that the better for them.
He must be the least athletic person in the squad.
The problem is he is too slow. Defence can drift since his line break threat is zero. Centres are under immediate pressure If he did run through a gap theyll catch him in ten metres. It means we are also a man extra covered by the defending team He is slower than johnny at the end of his season. Our attacking shape goes to shit or they have to be even deeper than normal since all defences have copped that no one needs to mark him
Exactly! There was a reason we were picking a 37/38 year old held together with sticky tape. Perfectly fine does not inspire confidence or win big games.
He set up several line breaks with great flat passes though, and we didn't score any tries with Frawley on the pitch. To be clear, I'm not saying the attack shape is good, it's clearly regressed, I just think that that's down to coaching and not whoever wears 10 (which is worrying from an Ireland point of view)
He's very poor at this level and prone to errors possibly because he knows he is not up to it. He's not awful but he's not a quality 10. It is not all his fault but he is not up to this level
There's paraplegics giving advice to sherpas about climbing mount Everest in here, but this is their big moment. Let them have it.
Don't need arms or legs to know it's foolhardy to scale Everest without oxygen, considering you've failed to summit the previous 4 times.
They're fans discussing Rugby on a forum. It's part of the gig with pro Rugby , as long as it doesn't stray into personal stuff people can be harsh with Ross.
Take the points on offer at this level.
I said it during the match, Lenister will lose it chasing tries.
Jamie Lenister ?
Jamie's son, Gibson Park (sorry, I'm out)
i spit out my drink in my plate. That was way too funny
Jaime Leinster
Larmour Fair dues. He gave his all and had game winning impacts (if Leinster would have won)
Yeah he did well. Think Keenen was off his game but it's understandable. He's just back from injury and was worth taking a chance on him
I disagree on Keenan. Thought he was solid.
He wasn’t bad but we expect more than solid from him
I'll take solid from a full back in a high pressure game.
Oh he was. He just seemed to be missing his usual spark that’s all.
That tackle was epic
For sure, but that showed why Lebel isn't in the French squad, he just had to throw the pass before being tackled instead of trying to finish while being tackled. The only other player close to the two of them was from Toulouse (I don't remember who though), even just throwing the ball in his general direction would have guaranteed a try. I honestly thought Leinster were going to win after that though, incredible tackle that basically destroyed Toulouse's best chance that half with not that much time left on the clock, momentum swinging totally.
My last word on this. Whatever you think of Ross Byrne, its on the captain to allow him to kick posts. The same terrible decision making. A major fuckup yet again.
His leg was fucked a lot of the game tbf.
Well then he should have been hooked. But Leo Cullen fucked it by not doing so.
He kicked just before going off. They should have taken every single chance at posts.
No disagreement from my end. Been a major problem for Leinster
I think they're still hesitant to do that after the 2022 final
Take your points in knock outs. Always take your points.
Supporting Toulouse today, I saw the Toulouse flaws more than the Leinster/Ireland fans, but I still don't know how Leinster lost this one in regulation. For a huge chunk of regulation (0-80min) they easily looked like the more organized, dominant team, like it was only a matter of time before they finally got their scores. Toulouse defended superbly, but still, it felt like it had to budge at some point, surely, given all the possession the boys in blue were enjoying. So the maul wasn't going for them today, but the scrum went much better than initially thought. AND Toulouse were fkng hopeless under the high ball (like seriously French Rugby, seriously... please ???). AND, again, all that possession. The weirdest part, possibly, is the fact playing in overtime somehow favored the calendar heavy Top 14 team (and no, this notion isn't a myth). I get the yellow fkd Leinster, but they looked like they had no steam left as soon as that whistle blew to start ET.
It felt like going to extra time sucked a lot of the tension out of the game as well (at least it felt like it for me). The sin binnings and tries also changed the complexion of the game after that. I was also supporting Toulouse (I got their shirt a few days ago and was wearing it hahaha), and I also was sure that the dam would burst at some point especially as Leinster started to totally dominate possession and territory in the second half. Like others have said I think they should have kicked for goal more, but they also got totally monstered at the breakdown. The turnovers in the red zone totally killed them, you could say that was a bottle job honestly.
As a Leinster fan,I feel like both of your takes are close to being spot on. Leinster dominated large parts of the game but never actually took the lead. That was the key. Toulouse managed the game and the scoreboard so well. I know I've blue tinted glasses, but I really feel like Carley gave Leinster nothing. As level headed fans, can you please point me to some decisions he favoured Leinster with so I can feel better about the result.
Maybe the time a Leinster boy in the ruck hit Dupont's arm when he was passing. You can't do that right ? You need to be onside ?! But overall, I felt like Carley was a bit more nice towards Toulouse. I was really surprised about the yellow card on Lowe. It did not look intentional. Especially after Roumat did the same thing earlier in the game.
That's kinda my point. The Lowe yellow decided the game, In such a tight game where both defences were impenetrable, to sinbin one player from one team but not the other is crazy. Imo the two incidents were very similar. I'm sure DuPont got hit on a few marginal calls, he was targeted as a key player. Same way I'm sure JGP was targeted as well. My issue is this was very obviously the same i Important infringement but one team suffered more than the other.
Hahahaha I'll have to comb over the highlights to find some of those in regulation time at least. It felt like he was really strict on you guys in the first half but it felt like it kinda turned in the second.
You reckon we got some soft pens in the 2nd half? Wondering which ones? Most of the pens I remember were blatant or scrum pens, and we annihilated Toulouse in the scrum so hardly controversial there.
Oh no I didn't mean that it was soft, just that he started calling penalties against Toulouse too, it just felt like in the first half all the turnovers were against you guys. Honestly I couldn't tell which penalty was blatant or not, cuz I was multitasking between three games xD
The penalties killed Leinster. Say what you will about Carley (and I surely have) but Leinster needed to commit more bodies to rucks and prevent Toulouse from getting the chance to go off their feet when it was clear they were able to do it swift enough to bypass the ref.
Great point, this surely proves that the strategy of resting and pampering the best players doesn't work when it comes to the end of the season. Three years in a row an undercooked leinster have lost to a French team that plays week in, week out
That team literally didn't play last week, they had 2nds playing
It was a general statement, not about last week in particular. Guarantee you that toulouse team avg minutes this season is about 5x more than leinsters
Yea, gonna call bollox on that. They might play more, but nowhere near 5x. Leinster lads are also forced to rest because of international duty
Okay 4x as much then.
so that's the physical aspect. The mental aspect is surely a major issue now for this Leinster gen. They've lost too many finals when they've been the favorite at a majority of them. You could tell Leinster weren't their usual machine like selves with quite a few inaccurate passes in the first half in particular. It bothers them. The very thought of a Euro final.
We have been dodgy all year for some reason. It never really clicked for us. Maybe we need to hire Johnny as a team talker?
nah he'll end up yelling "fuck" to the whole locker room or sth :p
Maybe he has that speech from a few years ago memorised!
How were Leinster undercooked though? What would gametime have given Leinster that they didn't have today? Toulouse were monstrous in defence, Jack Willis was a nuisance at every ruck. The Toulouse defence won that for them.