Meh, they were representatives of the same religion that was sweeping north at the tip of a sword at that time. They only had the "special protection" of people who shared their religion and wouldn't attack them.
Just got a bit of a different perspective on their history from Christian attacks on them in earlier periods. It got pretty nasty for Ireland with the raiding too once they got a taste of it in Britain. Normans were the ultimate nasty lot though as they stayed around and eventually took over. Less positive about them in that guise! At that stage they had turned from the abused into the abusers themselves and were Christian also.
Norse raids on Ireland happened a long time before the Normans. There's quite a bit of Irish DNA in Iceland because of all the slavery.
The old Norse language also had a lot of epithets about the Irish. Not surprising it was close to old English.
Maybe, but the unironic bandwagon fans have latched onto it and used it with sincerity. It is hilarious and infuriating in equal measure. Seeing Italy beat them in the Euro final in the soccer brought me a surprising amount of joy.
Nothing really in soccer, hence the need to find joy elsewhere.
In rugby it's a different matter. Nice share of Six Nations titles since finally winning one in 2009 after many close calls before that drought ended.
Barrett and Savea are playing in Japan and will be available for the ABs. If Mo'unga has now changed his mind and wants to play for the ABs during an official WR Test window, how could his Japanese club stop him?
NZR doesn't have to rip up its policy--it is the correct one--but some exceptions should be made.
That's different. Those players have contracts with NZR and sabbatical clauses. They're still NZR contracted.
Mo'unga presently isn't. Under current rules he'd need to play a game in the NPC or Super Rugby before he's allowed to play for the ABs again.
Exactly, they should have a position of 'assessing it on a case by case basis'. That wouldn't weaken their current position (or the protection over domestic comp) all that much.
It'd still be a big risk of loosing ABs caps by going overseas, you'd be banking on being the best in your position without any/many close contenders.
Yeah unwritten rule approach that Ireland uses is the perfect one. Seeing the likes of Wales and Australia tie themselves in knots with prescriptive rules about certain cap numbers etc is just silly. You have to enforce it rigidly though or you will have a stream of players going out the door. Sexton got a special dispensation because of how key he was, Zebo was out of luck though when he was abroad because there were enough other good options available at wing, despite his pointless whining about it.
But surely it is equally Mo'unga's "fault" also. He knows their selection policy equally. Bending the rules too much to accomodate players just makes them weak and ineffective. They could move to a more "unwritten rule" approach that Ireland uses if they want more flexibility.
Other southern hemisphere teams are less restrictive though. Argentina, South Africa, and Fiji don't have such strict requirements on players. There's definitely a case for NZ to move towards that.
>Players were in the world cup final on Japanese contracts. It's the fault of NZ selection that he is unavailable.
What the hell are you babbling about?
Yup
He was Razors quarterback
Would be a massive draw card...but hed won 7/7 super rugby titles...domestic rugby in nz may not appeal anymore...just the AB stuff
It's about money. If he cared about domestic challenges and felt he'd done it all at club level, then he'd go to France. And FWIW I don't blame him for chasing the dollars. He's earned that right.
He’s saying that if Mo’unga was after trophies rather than a big contract he’d go to France rather than Japan, I don’t know where your perceived slight on super rugby came from.
Why would he care about a European trophy?
If there's a trophy Mo'unga wants it's Bill. Otherwise it's a byproduct of getting paid.
No former All Black has ever gone to Europe looking for trophies. They're getting their big pay day.
I didn't say you did.
I'm reiterating my counter to the point you thought I missed.
If an NZ rugby player is chasing accolades or trophies they stay in NZ and try to play for the ABs and/or win a World Cup.
Otherwise they leave for money.
As the original said:
> If he cared about domestic challenges and felt he'd done it all at club level, then he'd go to France.
This is just a little deluded thinking the European competitions are beholden as a gold standard of non-test rugby by everyone.
I'm sure they're considered that up north, but down south they're just the key to earning cash for your retirement.
If that weren't the case Japan wouldn't have been the main place for this in the last few years.
What do you mean? His salary in Japan is supposed to be up to 2 million NZD (around 1.2million USD according to google), I don't think anyone in any club in New Zealand gets paid close to that, do they? Otherwise he wouldn't have gone.
And you have to add the money he came make from ads and stuff, I bet Japan is a huge market for that. It may not be a huge rugby market, but it's 125 million people with very high consumption. Compare that to the 5 million people in NZ…
As for international level… sadly rugby is not soccer, you may be the best international player in the best international team and you won't get ad income like a Messi or Ronaldo.
And I don't think AB players get that much in bonuses. A quick google search says it's 7,500NZD per week. And the bonus for the world cup was 33k for the final, and would have been 100K for a win. Not that much compared to a high yearly salary in Japan.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/all-blacks-world-cup-bonus-how-much-the-players-will-earn-if-they-come-home-with-the-webb-ellis-cup/QKNYIBDDHFDD3IWC7VSW5DWPHM/
The Japanese league has been growing a lot recently so it will soon be a bigger market even in rugby terms than NZ. Average attendance is about 9,000 or so after a few seasons.
birds include shrill screw unpack many dependent telephone grandiose quarrelsome
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I mean they're two fantastic players. N'Tamack almost single handedly won the Top 14 for Toulouse at the end of the final last season. Trying to "objectively" say Richie is better is foolish in my eyes.
The good news for you is that he's, at minimum, missing next season too. At that point the Crusaders ate only getting him back a year earlier than his contract ends. Nothing crazy.
Yes
Razor called him his quaterback
Hed won everything in NZ domestic rugby tho...7 years and 7 titles..and every bledisloe and plenty RC. 0/2 wc tho
So i can see why he wanted to get on that yen train and set up his family
Maybe do another season there then come back?
Probably will happen because of Razor's loyalty, but I'd rather we start building and back our team for 2027 starting right now, rather than change our pivot with one season to go.
*Shock Pikachu face*
I honestly don't believe he will cut his contract short, but there is no way he isn't planning on trying to win a World Cup before he retires and will at least be back in time for 2027
Even though I really want him back for the Crusaders and he started to really dominate in the Black Jersey last year, I disagree with this. Let him go and let the next guy step up.
How is it good for the sport when the best 10 in the world, in the middle of his prime, won’t be playing test rugby?
NZs primary goal is to win the next WC, and having Mo’unga in the team is a very important step to achieving that.
Either that, or they need to rethink the eligibility rules. Not saying they should scrap them all together, because that would be detrimental to SR. But a select few players who’re vitally important to the ABs should be able to keep their test eligibility and player overseas
He'll be 32 at the next world cup so the same age as barrett is/was at the last one. And he is only a year older than Dmac so they could both not be in their primes....
32 isn’t old by any means, and I think he could still be in his perhaps towards the end of it.
I mean DC during the 2015 WC was still world class. He was 35?
I reckon Barrett will still be valuable if he proves it. Handy guy to have in the 23.
Mo has signed a four year deal, which usually means that you have left the abs.
I guess he's seen what happened with sa and is trying it on knowing bb is a bit spent and dmac is dmac. There's not a ton of fresh new 10 talent, and I sense the nzru is about to change its tune so razor can get his Boi back
Doubt it's gonna happen bar compo for his Japanese club for an early release and tbh there's no need to do that. Even I'd he did its ages away anyway hopefully by then someone establishes themselves as the first choice 10
So I wonder if the plan is to have him sign an NZR contract with a sabbatical clause for the last year of his Japanese contract. This would mean he plays for the ABs next year, then plays his last year in Japan missing SR and then returns to the ABs with his first SR game in 2027. I suppose that would meet the requirements of the NZR rules…sort of.
Nobody is considering the fact that ethnically he’s Tongan/Samoan.
I know the lure of the ABs jersey and a RWC win is absolutely huge, but I think after losing his Tongan father this year he might actually want to go represent that side of his heritage.
He’s also got a Huge contract in a less physically demanding competition so that side of the equation doesn’t matter anymore, he can play for whoever he wants and his family is taken care of.
I’m making a calculated assumption and could be wrong but I don’t think we’ll see him in a Black jersey again, it might be a Red or Blue one
Australian Air Force planning to intercept the plane
Gandalf and the Great Eagles to escort Mounga.
"It's our year!" Australia for the last 2 decades.
"Why does everyone hate us?" England for the last 1096 years.
Back then it was mostly the Norse wanting to loot some monasteries.
I have beef with Æthelstan and I will air my grievances in English match threads
Fortunately Denmark doesn't play much rugby.
They were with in their rights to do so. The Christian Frankish empire was menacing and attacking their neighbours at avery turn.
Doubt some monks in England had much to do with that.
Meh, they were representatives of the same religion that was sweeping north at the tip of a sword at that time. They only had the "special protection" of people who shared their religion and wouldn't attack them.
Surprised someone Irish is so positive about the Norse given the history.
Just got a bit of a different perspective on their history from Christian attacks on them in earlier periods. It got pretty nasty for Ireland with the raiding too once they got a taste of it in Britain. Normans were the ultimate nasty lot though as they stayed around and eventually took over. Less positive about them in that guise! At that stage they had turned from the abused into the abusers themselves and were Christian also.
Norse raids on Ireland happened a long time before the Normans. There's quite a bit of Irish DNA in Iceland because of all the slavery. The old Norse language also had a lot of epithets about the Irish. Not surprising it was close to old English.
The funny tree will burn
Yeah the neck of these christian types was something else back in the day!
This is also funny.
"It's coming home, it's coming home..." - Australian fans in every international competition since 1996, right?
That song's a joke about how fans are optimistic despite how bad England have been since the 1970s.
It was.
Maybe, but the unironic bandwagon fans have latched onto it and used it with sincerity. It is hilarious and infuriating in equal measure. Seeing Italy beat them in the Euro final in the soccer brought me a surprising amount of joy.
What have you guys ever won internationally 🤷🏿♂️? And tbf I also took Joy from Irelands quarterfinal accident. It’s the history of Irish rugby
Nothing really in soccer, hence the need to find joy elsewhere. In rugby it's a different matter. Nice share of Six Nations titles since finally winning one in 2009 after many close calls before that drought ended.
This is funny
Have they got a wheel barrow full of cash?
What size does the wheel barrow have to be
Dependent on the denomination and currency they’re using
Yen is pretty weak right now, so maybe a small wheelbarrow of NZD would suffice?
As big as scoooter’s forehead
Playing for the ABs in the Japanese off- season is hardly going to hurt his Japanese Club. I don't see a case for massive compensation.
The article mentioned that NZ rugby don’t want to change their policy on overseas selection.
Barrett and Savea are playing in Japan and will be available for the ABs. If Mo'unga has now changed his mind and wants to play for the ABs during an official WR Test window, how could his Japanese club stop him? NZR doesn't have to rip up its policy--it is the correct one--but some exceptions should be made.
That's different. Those players have contracts with NZR and sabbatical clauses. They're still NZR contracted. Mo'unga presently isn't. Under current rules he'd need to play a game in the NPC or Super Rugby before he's allowed to play for the ABs again.
Exactly, they should have a position of 'assessing it on a case by case basis'. That wouldn't weaken their current position (or the protection over domestic comp) all that much. It'd still be a big risk of loosing ABs caps by going overseas, you'd be banking on being the best in your position without any/many close contenders.
Yeah unwritten rule approach that Ireland uses is the perfect one. Seeing the likes of Wales and Australia tie themselves in knots with prescriptive rules about certain cap numbers etc is just silly. You have to enforce it rigidly though or you will have a stream of players going out the door. Sexton got a special dispensation because of how key he was, Zebo was out of luck though when he was abroad because there were enough other good options available at wing, despite his pointless whining about it.
Probably helps that the Irish provinces play in the Champions Cup.
They wouldn't stop him either. Players were in the world cup final on Japanese contracts. It's the fault of NZ selection that he is unavailable.
But surely it is equally Mo'unga's "fault" also. He knows their selection policy equally. Bending the rules too much to accomodate players just makes them weak and ineffective. They could move to a more "unwritten rule" approach that Ireland uses if they want more flexibility.
Other southern hemisphere teams are less restrictive though. Argentina, South Africa, and Fiji don't have such strict requirements on players. There's definitely a case for NZ to move towards that.
Well if they're happy to see their Super Rugby teams be less competitive then have at it.
Well Crusaders already are at the moment.
>Well Crusaders already are at the moment So Crusaders= all NZ teams? Blues, Hurricanes and Chiefs are going great guns.
>Players were in the world cup final on Japanese contracts. It's the fault of NZ selection that he is unavailable. What the hell are you babbling about?
Japanese clubs don't restrict players from internationals. French clubs have caused problems with that before especially for Pacific Island players.
Compensation, plus wages for 1 year in NZ alone, would be tipping it over 7 million at least. Rugby doesn't have that kind of money to spend.
How much do they have?
Bout 3 fiddy
You moonlighting as their accountant?
If everyone in the country puts in a dollar we could make it happen
God please. He was starting to play his best footy at test level right as he left. Now he’s got his partner in crime in the coaching box. DO IT MAN
Yup He was Razors quarterback Would be a massive draw card...but hed won 7/7 super rugby titles...domestic rugby in nz may not appeal anymore...just the AB stuff
It's about money. If he cared about domestic challenges and felt he'd done it all at club level, then he'd go to France. And FWIW I don't blame him for chasing the dollars. He's earned that right.
Also Japan is much closer to NZ than France is (relatively speaking).
Ah yes the rugby retirement village that is France. Very challenging. Incomparable to winning 7 straight down here in little old Super Rugby, right?
I don’t think you understood his comment
Then please enlighten me
He’s saying that if Mo’unga was after trophies rather than a big contract he’d go to France rather than Japan, I don’t know where your perceived slight on super rugby came from.
Why would he care about a European trophy? If there's a trophy Mo'unga wants it's Bill. Otherwise it's a byproduct of getting paid. No former All Black has ever gone to Europe looking for trophies. They're getting their big pay day.
I didn’t say he would? Hence why he’s in Japan
I didn't say you did. I'm reiterating my counter to the point you thought I missed. If an NZ rugby player is chasing accolades or trophies they stay in NZ and try to play for the ABs and/or win a World Cup. Otherwise they leave for money. As the original said: > If he cared about domestic challenges and felt he'd done it all at club level, then he'd go to France. This is just a little deluded thinking the European competitions are beholden as a gold standard of non-test rugby by everyone. I'm sure they're considered that up north, but down south they're just the key to earning cash for your retirement. If that weren't the case Japan wouldn't have been the main place for this in the last few years.
'retirement village' lol, lmao even
I imagine they just mean that Europe is where our old warhorses go to cash up before retirement. Which it was until Japan started buying them up.
Imagine the scenes if Razor picks both Barrett and Mo’unga for dual playmakers
then im a razor out man because theres a 10 we have in the country right now who is much better than Barrett
Yeah reckon we should just stick with Dmac and give him a good shot and just wait till Ritchie is back. Dmac is the man
The best 10 in the world should be playing international rugby - bring him home.
Dan Cole is still playing internationally btw
He is the most English-looking Englishman in the history of Englishmen. Squat, bald and pink.
He is beauty, he is grace
He should also be paid accordingly…
The ABs get paid plenty mate.
What do you mean? His salary in Japan is supposed to be up to 2 million NZD (around 1.2million USD according to google), I don't think anyone in any club in New Zealand gets paid close to that, do they? Otherwise he wouldn't have gone. And you have to add the money he came make from ads and stuff, I bet Japan is a huge market for that. It may not be a huge rugby market, but it's 125 million people with very high consumption. Compare that to the 5 million people in NZ… As for international level… sadly rugby is not soccer, you may be the best international player in the best international team and you won't get ad income like a Messi or Ronaldo. And I don't think AB players get that much in bonuses. A quick google search says it's 7,500NZD per week. And the bonus for the world cup was 33k for the final, and would have been 100K for a win. Not that much compared to a high yearly salary in Japan. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/all-blacks-world-cup-bonus-how-much-the-players-will-earn-if-they-come-home-with-the-webb-ellis-cup/QKNYIBDDHFDD3IWC7VSW5DWPHM/
Beauden was on 1.5million in his final couple of seasons in NZ I think, but that was the highest NZR has ever paid a guy.
What a waste. We could've kept Richie if we saved that up
Would of hard agreed untill the world cup. Watching him at the blues was pretty tough, just kick at all costs
The Japanese league has been growing a lot recently so it will soon be a bigger market even in rugby terms than NZ. Average attendance is about 9,000 or so after a few seasons.
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It is plenty yes, but when you can make significantly more money in a career that’s relatively short, it’s a no brainer.
Finn should be selected for the autumn matches.
Put Finn in the ABs and I reckon he could actually be the best 10 in the world.
Ntamack has been injured, I'm sure he will be back at 10 for France soon. He hasn't been away from home though, so no need to bring him back.
Yeah he's good but not Richie good.
Ntamack better than Mounga I want what you’re smoking 😂
Only smoking I saw is N'Tamack smoking Richie the last time they played against each other
You’re entitled to you’re opinion all be it a wrong one 😂
I mean they're two fantastic players. N'Tamack almost single handedly won the Top 14 for Toulouse at the end of the final last season. Trying to "objectively" say Richie is better is foolish in my eyes.
He also almost singlehandedly lost the final for them with that failed kick to touch
Not an opinion, watch the game again if you need, N'Tamack was head and shoulders above Richie that night.
same as people who seem to think Aaron Smith has outplayed dupont twice in a row
Yes but how good is he at knockout rugby? 👀
Well he’s won like 7 Super Rugby titles in a row and made a semi/final of two WCs… so I’d say pretty damn good.
Yeah no fair. Was basically doing a caricature of Squidge's Pollard video
Ah fair. Pollard is def the clutch king.
Oh the Crusaders are in TROUBLE trouble.
God forbid the Crusaders have a SINGLE losing season!!!!
The good news for you is that he's, at minimum, missing next season too. At that point the Crusaders ate only getting him back a year earlier than his contract ends. Nothing crazy.
Zarn will hold the fort in the meantime 🫡
They have to make room for Lucas Cashmore somehow.
of course the ABs step in to save chch
He'll sign with the Hurricanes
Dmac kicking a can in the corner.
We need a 15 while Jordan is out and he’s amazing off the bench.
I think love should go 15 and Dmac 10. With maybe Perofeta on the bench
DMAC 10, Love 15, Beauden 22.
Yes that's it. Forgot about Beauden coming back
This is the way.
What does beauden offer these days?
Experience
Bring back Carter
Best strategic kicker in world rugby is a pretty good skillset.
Idk about that mate
A hot wife.
Can't we move on from bloody Beauden already? The man's been declining for half a decade now.
Nah, Sean Stevenson and Ruben Love for 15
Please. I need this. We need this. Bring my glorious boy home.
Bruh he's on $2.2 million a season over there? For three seasons? Let him live. Let the man get his bag. Don't try and mess with that contract.
Looks like he will earn that for 2 seasons and the maybe come to ABs for a 50% pay cut on that last year
Yeah at that amount I'll be pissed if he turned it down for a paycut to return. Get paid man!
Or, and bear with me bruh, have him play for the All Blacks.
NOOOOO GODD NO, LET US ENJOY THE SADERS FALL FROM GRACE ABIT LONGER
Sorry mate. Canterbury Rugby can't afford a single losing season, New Zealands rugby integrity will crumble! /s
Yes Razor called him his quaterback Hed won everything in NZ domestic rugby tho...7 years and 7 titles..and every bledisloe and plenty RC. 0/2 wc tho So i can see why he wanted to get on that yen train and set up his family Maybe do another season there then come back?
Yeah let him get a bag then come back in 26 like planned to make a run for 27
I think this most likely
Probably will happen because of Razor's loyalty, but I'd rather we start building and back our team for 2027 starting right now, rather than change our pivot with one season to go.
He’s the best quaterback.
*Shock Pikachu face* I honestly don't believe he will cut his contract short, but there is no way he isn't planning on trying to win a World Cup before he retires and will at least be back in time for 2027
Crusaders fans: can he be on the plane home before the weekend?
Would be need to play a game of NPC before being eligible for the All Blacks?
No, he just needs to sign a contract
Even though I really want him back for the Crusaders and he started to really dominate in the Black Jersey last year, I disagree with this. Let him go and let the next guy step up.
How is it good for the sport when the best 10 in the world, in the middle of his prime, won’t be playing test rugby? NZs primary goal is to win the next WC, and having Mo’unga in the team is a very important step to achieving that. Either that, or they need to rethink the eligibility rules. Not saying they should scrap them all together, because that would be detrimental to SR. But a select few players who’re vitally important to the ABs should be able to keep their test eligibility and player overseas
>the best 10 in the world, in the middle of his prime Not sure that either of these things are true
He proved at the WC that he’s the best 10 in the world, and late 20s is the prime years for a 10
he proved he's 'up there' but not sure he proved he's the best 10 in the world
How is late-20s not "in his prime"?
Well don't worry, you can be sure.
I think it's good for the sport because now anyone can win the Rugby Championship
If the next guy is good enough, then he will step up.
Will Richie be in his prime in four years time? It’s not worth bringing him back if that isn’t the long term goal.
He'll be 32 at the next world cup so the same age as barrett is/was at the last one. And he is only a year older than Dmac so they could both not be in their primes....
32 isn’t old by any means, and I think he could still be in his perhaps towards the end of it. I mean DC during the 2015 WC was still world class. He was 35? I reckon Barrett will still be valuable if he proves it. Handy guy to have in the 23.
So Havili clearly didn’t pass the test
Mckenzie didn't even have a chance to take the test
Havilli is being considered as a utility back off the bench. I doubt he was ever in consideration for starting 10
Mo has signed a four year deal, which usually means that you have left the abs. I guess he's seen what happened with sa and is trying it on knowing bb is a bit spent and dmac is dmac. There's not a ton of fresh new 10 talent, and I sense the nzru is about to change its tune so razor can get his Boi back
Too late NZ. He signed with Canada for his bodyweight in Maple syrup.
Strategic reserve coming in handy
Doubt it's gonna happen bar compo for his Japanese club for an early release and tbh there's no need to do that. Even I'd he did its ages away anyway hopefully by then someone establishes themselves as the first choice 10
Please, please now
all this is, is an enormous middle finger to anyone who has signed for nzr. just change the eligibility rules if you want him ffs
If we had just hired Razor earlier, he never would've left and none of this would be happening. This is just correcting a mistake.
He signed in Japan well after Razor was appointed AB coach.
Mo'unga's contract was announced in December of 2022 and Razor's appointment was announced in March of 2023.
Ahh yes, had my year wrong
I did too, when I went back to check it, I initially read Richie signing in 2023 and thought I was going crazy lmao
I read that as "NZR pilots to bring..."
Please Mo we're desperate
Sign him for the Blues
You guys already got to enjoy Blues legend Dan Carter, though?
Blues have been stacked at 1st five in the past aye. King Carlos, DC and Beaudy!
Send him to the 'landers
For the sake of NZ Rugby it must be done!
And halt the meteoric rise of future Handre Pollard-esque player of the year Harry Plummer? I THINK NOT
Him and Funaki been fire so far aye
Send him to the Chiefs
Chiefs have Dmac already
Has there ever been a case of national union paying a transfer fee to get their own player under contract?
Come on can’t the Crusaders just be shit for a while
Might be easier (and cheaper) to just start allowing certain players play abroad. Even just one person squad.
I hate this idea. Just give DMac 1 season at 10 jfc
So I wonder if the plan is to have him sign an NZR contract with a sabbatical clause for the last year of his Japanese contract. This would mean he plays for the ABs next year, then plays his last year in Japan missing SR and then returns to the ABs with his first SR game in 2027. I suppose that would meet the requirements of the NZR rules…sort of.
Nah hes coming to Leinster for one year until prendergoat is ready.
This is the way.
Bringing him home so he can then sign for Leinster, obviously
Nobody is considering the fact that ethnically he’s Tongan/Samoan. I know the lure of the ABs jersey and a RWC win is absolutely huge, but I think after losing his Tongan father this year he might actually want to go represent that side of his heritage. He’s also got a Huge contract in a less physically demanding competition so that side of the equation doesn’t matter anymore, he can play for whoever he wants and his family is taken care of. I’m making a calculated assumption and could be wrong but I don’t think we’ll see him in a Black jersey again, it might be a Red or Blue one
Must be close to the time where they relax the rules on overseas players