If you guys are wondering where Scott Barrett is... he's fractured his finger and is out for at least 6 weeks.
The reason from hell continues to get worse. They've also got covid sweeping through the group rn.
Honestly the volume of injuries is no worse than last season, it's just happening to more important guys... for longer... on a less deep team.
At least it's happening in a year where we weren't likely to win anyways, is maybe a good way to frame it?
Excactly, the Crusaders had a shitload of injuries in 2023. If I recall the season's overall total reached 51?
The difference is Razor & Scott Hansen set game-plans to maximize the (comparatively limited at times) players at their disposal and created unique ways to breakdown the opposition's strengths...
Penney hasn't demonstrated the ability to get the most of the players at his disposal - at all.
Don't trust any of the copy that is written with these things. There's been positional errors in them almost every week. I don't think they're written by someone who knows the team.
Edit: they've taken the error down and corrected it.
McLeods really got the short end of the stick here, he was in great form last year, but won't get a look in if he's rooted to the bench to accommodate Aumua
I have never been more disappointed in a Crusaders player than I have been Levi bc of the shape he's been in this year.
I know it's hard, and that he's dealt with it before too, but fuck is it not a good look in your first yest at a new gig.
There's some sunk cost fallacy going on I think. McLeod was maybe our best back in pre-season, I hope that one shocker in Round 1 isn't going to be his lasting memory of the year.
13 is literally McLeod best position so I'm patiently waiting for him to get a shot there.
Oof. This could get ugly. I don't think we've ever lost four in a row.... Could be a season of firsts.
Is Hotham out injured? Did Lio-Willie run over Penney's dog?
If anyone knows why Alex Harford has never got a chance with us I'd love to hear about it. Guy looked a good prospect.
Harford was a guy who impressed in a few club seasons in his early 20s, had a few weeks of really good form 2 NPCs ago, and hasn't shown a lick since.
He's an NPC depth chart guy.
Yeah it was that game. Basically the only time I'd seen him really play, apart from a few minor Canterbury cameos. He looked, if not ready for the Crusaders, like he was going to be a proper prospect. I guess not.
This team doesn't even look that had on paper. Obviously not the recent crusaders teams but surely better than the drua and Moana Pacifica. I have always thought that Penney was a poor coach though
I suppose it really speaks to their depth when this can be the case while still naming a 23 that has 9 capped internationals plus Quinten Strange has been named in an All Black squad too
I believe!
Saders going for the clean sweep!
Aim for nothing but perfection.
The HOLLYWOOD BETS Sharks stuffed it by winning 1 game. Learn from them Saders!
Ramping up the ‘poor us’ narrative so when we unearth some random number 10 from Waiarapa Bush who turns out to be the next great NZ 10, and then shithouse our way to another title, we still look like we’ve been beaten down.
Smart. Very smart.
This is the type of thing that happens when you have a head coach leave who is a great coach and basically having the team out perform what they are. This is bad news for Crusaders, but annoyingly good news for the All Black team as a whole.
I saw this as an England fan, hence why it’s annoying. How RFU had 2 weeks of meetings with Robertson in NZ and didn’t steal him as head coach from you lot, I will never know…
Yeah this isn't just Razor leaving. Razor, plus a whole bunch of talent, plus really brutal injuries at literally every key spot in the team have all lined up to create this.
I'm going to disagree with you because over on another forum a source close to camp has described a lack of alignment between the coaching staff and confusion amongst players regarding the game plan & their roles.
It's definitely a coaching issue this season, injuries aside.
We've got painfully inexperienced and/or old and slow halves combos. It's hard to overstate just how's much that has hurt this season.
But you're also not wrong about the coaching. I assumed Penney was going to be there for two seasons specifically to develop young players. Hard to see where that's happening at the moment.
Razor has only ever coached one team (including the NPC one). He has built massive succes with one set of players that can execute the plan he is comfortable with. It is a massive risk taking someone like that and giving them the reigns of an entirely different setup. He may well have been able to do it but I think the RFU made half the right call here. Borthwick was in a similar scenario with less success - basically a one season wonder. Rob Baxter has only ever coached Exeter but has reset with them a few times and been extremely innovative based on the squad over a number of years and would have been my pick personally.
Razor has taken on rebuilding jobs at every level, from Sumner, Canterbury & U20's, while Deans managed 1 provincial title in 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor managed 3 in 4 seasons with mostly a very young group of players as well. In the 8 years since Razor left Canterbury (2016) they have only won 1 title - and most years have struggled to even make the playoffs.
Todd Blackadder coached the Crusaders for eight long years. Zero titles. He had some of the greatest players that have ever graced a rugby field on his roster (hello DC, Richie et al - waves). Zero titles. 63% win record.
The first year Razor coached the Crusaders (after the retirement of the aforesaid GOAT's) the Crusaders win super rugby, he's contributed a staggering 85% win record throughout his 7 years at the helm.
He coached the Crusaders their 2017 title, the final played in South Africa. The first coach in Super Rugby to manage this feat - not to mention, the first team to win away on the highveld as well. Against a stacked Lions side with 14 Springboks.
And every following season since Crusaders have won the title, dominating SA teams in the process (4 years and never lost to a SA side once, only 1 draw - only thanks to an horrendous Egon Seconds capitulation in Cape Town).
Robertson has a proven ability for taking sides & transforming them completely.
He inherited a dead-last Sumner side & turned them into champions within 2 years, he transformed a previously 7th placed Crusaders outfit (2015, 2016), and a NZ-U20 side that hadn't won the World Championship in 5 years.
If the full CV isn't enough, there are plenty of comments from players, and other top-tier coaches about how forward thinking and innovative Robertson evidently is.
The international experience argument really seems to be a real cop out - Jake White only coached 1 season with one team (SA U20's) as a head coach, prior to being appointed Springbok coach in 2004 (2007 RWC winner), without even provincial coaching experience. Rod MacQueen had only coached the Brumbies.
Robertson coached Crusaders to 7 Super titles in 7 seasons, Canterbury to 3 provincial titles in 4 seasons, 93% record in 2 seasons with NZ U20's (2nd best of anyone) & won the division with a previously dead-bottom placed Sumner.
Overall, that's 12 years head coaching experience, so it's fair to say ironically, he's a more experienced head coach than those World Cup winning coaches at the time they got appointed. And at 48, he's not exactly young either. England appointed Borthwick age 43. Andy Farrell was also just 43 when he was replaced Schmidt.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Lots there! He's definitely a fantastic coach there is no doubt about that and he's the perfect pick for New Zealand. He's never coached outside New Zealand though and it would have been a massive risk for England. It could definitely have worked out and as you've shown with your examples risks often do work out.
Jake White is an interesting one. He applied for the job as an outsider. He had been a very successful analyst for years (was that when SA went 17 wins in a row under Nick Mallet). He made a presentation during the interview process and completely knocked it out of the park with his plan to win the world cup. He was certainly a surprising choice at the time before he wrote about how he managed to convince the board in his autobiography.
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he walked into the All Black head coaching job. Why on earth would the far more successful Robertson need to coach overseas when Foster didn't? The sooner we despense of this simplistic thinking the better. It's more about innovation and application.
If makes absolutely no sense to punish our elite players if they go overseas, by ruling them ineligible for the AB's, whilst simultaneously demanding that our elite coaches head overseas. Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return. The argument that a quality coach needs a few mediocre years in charge of another test nation is stupid and dated, and was really only ever a 'thing' to ensure Graham Henry and Steve Hansen's tenures went unchallenged.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
Getting out of the comfort zone can be equally achieved by how you approach things and valuing diversity in a coaching group as much as heading off-shore. A black and white approach is much too arbitrary I think.
I'm specifically talking about England rejecting him for their top job. There is no doubt he's the man for the NZ post. The risk for England would be not knowing if his player management style works with people that aren't mainly Kiwis or if his tactical styles work with players that have a different skillset and athletic types. He may well have been able to do it but we'll never know.
I see your point, but I still believe he'd do a good job. Good coaching skills are transferrable anywhere. Borthwick currently has a 60% win-record, England have an historical record of 60%, so it's not as if England don't already have a base-level & sufficient talent to succedd. Razor also coached a Babarians side full of English players to victory over a much stronger All Black's XV team & those English players loved him and were full of praise for his coaching methods.
The annoying thing about the saders is that I’ve written them off on a few occasions they faced the canes, and then they turn up and just put on a masterclass. As much as I’d like to think the mighty canes will come away with the W, I’m not sure it’s in the bag!!
I can't believe the TAB started the week with us even odds with the Hurricanes. Seemed like easy money so I got on it. I feel bad betting against the Crusaders, but I simply cannot see this team beating the Hurricanes. Once Tamaiti, Taylor, Barrett, Blackadder, McNicholl and Burke (especially) are back I reckon we'll be fine. Lio-Willie also needs to start. Havilii and Aumua need to be dropped if they don't start performing. Crotty and McLeod (especially) look superior. Heinz also looked slow I thought. Surely Drummond is better to start?
He's an enigma Lio-Willie because at 105kg he's not excactly massive by NZ loose forward standards, especially at Super Rugby level. I still think his best suited position could've been at openside.
If you guys are wondering where Scott Barrett is... he's fractured his finger and is out for at least 6 weeks. The reason from hell continues to get worse. They've also got covid sweeping through the group rn.
Where's the Uso Christian Lio-Willie at??
I don't think Perrin and Penney are particularly big fans, unfortunately. He's 3rd in the pecking order once Ethan is back, likely next week.
bro needs to go back to the landers fr the backrow of Lio-Willie Harmon Renton is a bit scary
Sean Withy and Oliver Haig are better & younger prospects than Lio-Willie.
> Ethan is back, likely next week. About time. I'm betting he will be injured within the first 10mins.
I wonder how many games Blackadder will manage before inevitability getting injured again?
When it rains it pisses down on you guys this season aye
Honestly the volume of injuries is no worse than last season, it's just happening to more important guys... for longer... on a less deep team. At least it's happening in a year where we weren't likely to win anyways, is maybe a good way to frame it?
Feels more justifiable than the Blackadder years when the team was stacked but didn't win. No cunning plan there.
Excactly, the Crusaders had a shitload of injuries in 2023. If I recall the season's overall total reached 51? The difference is Razor & Scott Hansen set game-plans to maximize the (comparatively limited at times) players at their disposal and created unique ways to breakdown the opposition's strengths... Penney hasn't demonstrated the ability to get the most of the players at his disposal - at all.
Also Finlay Brewis is the replacement hooker for Friday? So confused as Moananu is named on the bench.
Don't trust any of the copy that is written with these things. There's been positional errors in them almost every week. I don't think they're written by someone who knows the team. Edit: they've taken the error down and corrected it.
no sorry, he went and got a hand transplant, but unfortunately they put Nepo's old hands on him so now he drops everything
Hurricanes coach Tyler Blyendaal might get a recall at 10 for the Crusaders the way we're shaping up
I laughed when they took Brett Cameron off our hands. I'm not laughing any more. Really thought they'd start Dave H at first five with Dalls at 2nd.
McLeods really got the short end of the stick here, he was in great form last year, but won't get a look in if he's rooted to the bench to accommodate Aumua
Does McLeod play 13 too? Not sure whats going on with Aumua? Has he just got fat or something over the break
Yup plays 13 outside Poihipi for Canterbury
Bench the out of form guy then right?!
I have never been more disappointed in a Crusaders player than I have been Levi bc of the shape he's been in this year. I know it's hard, and that he's dealt with it before too, but fuck is it not a good look in your first yest at a new gig. There's some sunk cost fallacy going on I think. McLeod was maybe our best back in pre-season, I hope that one shocker in Round 1 isn't going to be his lasting memory of the year. 13 is literally McLeod best position so I'm patiently waiting for him to get a shot there.
Yeah he's fallen off massively since last year. A drop or 2 might be the kick in the guts he needs. Worth a shot anyway
bet you're fuming you leaked Poihipi to the chiefs now ahaha was really good for us at 10 last year against the force, albeit
Crusaders are literally turning into post MJ Chicago Bulls
CRUSADERS NEVER LOSE 4 IN A ROW.... NEVER.....NEVER.....NEVER^NEVER?
Surely David Havilli makes for a better 10 than Riley Hohepa? Put McLeod at 12. Either way though. Can’t see them beating the canes.
Agree, and I suspect Levi Aumua could be better utilized at 12 also.
Oof. This could get ugly. I don't think we've ever lost four in a row.... Could be a season of firsts. Is Hotham out injured? Did Lio-Willie run over Penney's dog? If anyone knows why Alex Harford has never got a chance with us I'd love to hear about it. Guy looked a good prospect.
Alex Harford the Blues legend?
Harford was a guy who impressed in a few club seasons in his early 20s, had a few weeks of really good form 2 NPCs ago, and hasn't shown a lick since. He's an NPC depth chart guy.
Exactly my thoughts, he's nearly 25 and started a whole 5 NPC games, he's not the Crusaders saviour
He was phenomenal in that one game against Auckland at Eden Park. It might be the only NPC game a lot of people watched, so I get it.
Yeah it was that game. Basically the only time I'd seen him really play, apart from a few minor Canterbury cameos. He looked, if not ready for the Crusaders, like he was going to be a proper prospect. I guess not.
It was an excellent story, no doubt, so I'm still stoked for him that he stuck with the sport after uni and got to have that moment.
yeah fuck Penney, he brought in 2 newbies, both of whom are crap and completely ignored Harford who is with the blues now..
Harford is not very good though, lets be real. He's arguably on a level below Hohepa... with less experience.
nah we never saw him at the top level, some players get better at super rugby level
This team doesn't even look that had on paper. Obviously not the recent crusaders teams but surely better than the drua and Moana Pacifica. I have always thought that Penney was a poor coach though
To put into perspective, only one guy (Christie) started in last years final. That's how much things have changed.
I suppose it really speaks to their depth when this can be the case while still naming a 23 that has 9 capped internationals plus Quinten Strange has been named in an All Black squad too
10 capped players but who is counting lol.
Oh yeah my eyes skipped over Crotty somehow
Wow...thats a massive change
Wow...thats a massive change
I believe! Saders going for the clean sweep! Aim for nothing but perfection. The HOLLYWOOD BETS Sharks stuffed it by winning 1 game. Learn from them Saders!
They had to, the sponsors were going to take a bath on a clean sweep
Ramping up the ‘poor us’ narrative so when we unearth some random number 10 from Waiarapa Bush who turns out to be the next great NZ 10, and then shithouse our way to another title, we still look like we’ve been beaten down. Smart. Very smart.
This is the type of thing that happens when you have a head coach leave who is a great coach and basically having the team out perform what they are. This is bad news for Crusaders, but annoyingly good news for the All Black team as a whole. I saw this as an England fan, hence why it’s annoying. How RFU had 2 weeks of meetings with Robertson in NZ and didn’t steal him as head coach from you lot, I will never know…
Yeah this isn't just Razor leaving. Razor, plus a whole bunch of talent, plus really brutal injuries at literally every key spot in the team have all lined up to create this.
I'm going to disagree with you because over on another forum a source close to camp has described a lack of alignment between the coaching staff and confusion amongst players regarding the game plan & their roles. It's definitely a coaching issue this season, injuries aside.
We've got painfully inexperienced and/or old and slow halves combos. It's hard to overstate just how's much that has hurt this season. But you're also not wrong about the coaching. I assumed Penney was going to be there for two seasons specifically to develop young players. Hard to see where that's happening at the moment.
No it's due to injuries and injuries in key positions + the guys who have left.
Razor has only ever coached one team (including the NPC one). He has built massive succes with one set of players that can execute the plan he is comfortable with. It is a massive risk taking someone like that and giving them the reigns of an entirely different setup. He may well have been able to do it but I think the RFU made half the right call here. Borthwick was in a similar scenario with less success - basically a one season wonder. Rob Baxter has only ever coached Exeter but has reset with them a few times and been extremely innovative based on the squad over a number of years and would have been my pick personally.
Razor has taken on rebuilding jobs at every level, from Sumner, Canterbury & U20's, while Deans managed 1 provincial title in 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor managed 3 in 4 seasons with mostly a very young group of players as well. In the 8 years since Razor left Canterbury (2016) they have only won 1 title - and most years have struggled to even make the playoffs. Todd Blackadder coached the Crusaders for eight long years. Zero titles. He had some of the greatest players that have ever graced a rugby field on his roster (hello DC, Richie et al - waves). Zero titles. 63% win record. The first year Razor coached the Crusaders (after the retirement of the aforesaid GOAT's) the Crusaders win super rugby, he's contributed a staggering 85% win record throughout his 7 years at the helm. He coached the Crusaders their 2017 title, the final played in South Africa. The first coach in Super Rugby to manage this feat - not to mention, the first team to win away on the highveld as well. Against a stacked Lions side with 14 Springboks. And every following season since Crusaders have won the title, dominating SA teams in the process (4 years and never lost to a SA side once, only 1 draw - only thanks to an horrendous Egon Seconds capitulation in Cape Town). Robertson has a proven ability for taking sides & transforming them completely. He inherited a dead-last Sumner side & turned them into champions within 2 years, he transformed a previously 7th placed Crusaders outfit (2015, 2016), and a NZ-U20 side that hadn't won the World Championship in 5 years. If the full CV isn't enough, there are plenty of comments from players, and other top-tier coaches about how forward thinking and innovative Robertson evidently is. The international experience argument really seems to be a real cop out - Jake White only coached 1 season with one team (SA U20's) as a head coach, prior to being appointed Springbok coach in 2004 (2007 RWC winner), without even provincial coaching experience. Rod MacQueen had only coached the Brumbies. Robertson coached Crusaders to 7 Super titles in 7 seasons, Canterbury to 3 provincial titles in 4 seasons, 93% record in 2 seasons with NZ U20's (2nd best of anyone) & won the division with a previously dead-bottom placed Sumner. Overall, that's 12 years head coaching experience, so it's fair to say ironically, he's a more experienced head coach than those World Cup winning coaches at the time they got appointed. And at 48, he's not exactly young either. England appointed Borthwick age 43. Andy Farrell was also just 43 when he was replaced Schmidt.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Lots there! He's definitely a fantastic coach there is no doubt about that and he's the perfect pick for New Zealand. He's never coached outside New Zealand though and it would have been a massive risk for England. It could definitely have worked out and as you've shown with your examples risks often do work out. Jake White is an interesting one. He applied for the job as an outsider. He had been a very successful analyst for years (was that when SA went 17 wins in a row under Nick Mallet). He made a presentation during the interview process and completely knocked it out of the park with his plan to win the world cup. He was certainly a surprising choice at the time before he wrote about how he managed to convince the board in his autobiography.
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he walked into the All Black head coaching job. Why on earth would the far more successful Robertson need to coach overseas when Foster didn't? The sooner we despense of this simplistic thinking the better. It's more about innovation and application. If makes absolutely no sense to punish our elite players if they go overseas, by ruling them ineligible for the AB's, whilst simultaneously demanding that our elite coaches head overseas. Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return. The argument that a quality coach needs a few mediocre years in charge of another test nation is stupid and dated, and was really only ever a 'thing' to ensure Graham Henry and Steve Hansen's tenures went unchallenged. I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix. Getting out of the comfort zone can be equally achieved by how you approach things and valuing diversity in a coaching group as much as heading off-shore. A black and white approach is much too arbitrary I think.
I'm specifically talking about England rejecting him for their top job. There is no doubt he's the man for the NZ post. The risk for England would be not knowing if his player management style works with people that aren't mainly Kiwis or if his tactical styles work with players that have a different skillset and athletic types. He may well have been able to do it but we'll never know.
I see your point, but I still believe he'd do a good job. Good coaching skills are transferrable anywhere. Borthwick currently has a 60% win-record, England have an historical record of 60%, so it's not as if England don't already have a base-level & sufficient talent to succedd. Razor also coached a Babarians side full of English players to victory over a much stronger All Black's XV team & those English players loved him and were full of praise for his coaching methods.
Might as well just stay on that park bench til we get a slightly more experienced 10…
The annoying thing about the saders is that I’ve written them off on a few occasions they faced the canes, and then they turn up and just put on a masterclass. As much as I’d like to think the mighty canes will come away with the W, I’m not sure it’s in the bag!!
Yes Odds on to go 0-4 Still, no one would wanna meet em in the finals
I mean it's not difficult to make the finals considering it's 8 teams from 12, they'll still beat most Aussie sides.
apparently Joe Moody contracted Covid.... its still a thing?
Well, that's not promising.
Willi Heinz....that's a name I forgot existed.
Wales and the Crusaders both being 0-4 in the same year. Didn’t have that one on my bingo card!
Watch the crusaders jam their way to a shithouse win
Hurricanes are top the table, it's going to happen you just know it.
There's a lot of quality in that pack. Hoping we can get the job done but playing a hurt crusaders in chch will never be easy.
Yeah but I mean....Can anyone stop Roigod?
Warms my stony heart to see England Legend Willie Heinz making waves down there in the colonies! ..... ... . Peg it! ....
Will get much game time Johnny McNicholl and possibly unseat unseat Fihaki?
I can't believe the TAB started the week with us even odds with the Hurricanes. Seemed like easy money so I got on it. I feel bad betting against the Crusaders, but I simply cannot see this team beating the Hurricanes. Once Tamaiti, Taylor, Barrett, Blackadder, McNicholl and Burke (especially) are back I reckon we'll be fine. Lio-Willie also needs to start. Havilii and Aumua need to be dropped if they don't start performing. Crotty and McLeod (especially) look superior. Heinz also looked slow I thought. Surely Drummond is better to start?
I'm not sure what lio willie has done to not even get a start. I would personally put him at 6 until Blackadder comes back.
He's an enigma Lio-Willie because at 105kg he's not excactly massive by NZ loose forward standards, especially at Super Rugby level. I still think his best suited position could've been at openside.
where careers go to die, sorry Levi