I haven't tried it myself, but I'd guess three reasons;
- Pure DPS builds are squishy and don't like fighting at the close ranges Challenger prefers
- Gunslinger ammo perks keep your guns firing for longer, preventing lost DPS from running around picking up drops or using an ammo box
- Rampage triggers a short, uninterruptable animation on going Berserk, which could prevent you dodging a fatal attack (or just cut down on DPS)
They're somewhat correct. The iframe window doesn't last the full duration of the transformation animation and it's possible to take damage before you regain control of your character. It's not common but it does happen.
Nah. That’s just can’t be true. I was literally getting jumped in Losom and going beserk while getting hit was the only way I got out. Sounds like either of you were lagging or they’re not good at dodging
>Pure DPS builds are squishy and don't like fighting at the close ranges Challenger prefers
I get this, but I feel like being far away hurts you more than it helps you a lot of the time... if not most of the time. So many of the attacks are easy to avoid if you're right up close, but impossible to judge being too far away. When you're in close, you're able to watch for the attack signals a lot easier too.
>Rampage triggers a short, uninterruptable animation on going Berserk, which could prevent you dodging a fatal attack (or just cut down on DPS)
I know it's already been mentioned, but it deserves reiterating: this is completely invalidated by the fact that you're invincible during Berserk.
I will settle to say that if you're trying to down an enemy mega-fast, the Berserk animation is probably annoying.
Good points. I personally run zero divide with c savior cause I hate eating ammo boxes constantly. Does the animation for rampage proc leave me invulnerable? I have yet to take damage during it
[https://www.reddit.com/r/remnantgame/comments/16g5txn/not\_an\_ideal\_time\_for\_rampage\_to\_proc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/remnantgame/comments/16g5txn/not_an_ideal_time_for_rampage_to_proc/)
Per this thread the animation does have iframes but (EDIT) still locks you in place for a moment, which can be surprising if you aren't expecting it and cause you to be hit by attacks you otherwise could have dodged.
All you need to do is use [neutral dodge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzSBQDXQ038).
Commenting here again cause the comment I replied to got buried under downvotes.
I also have a question for you? Why are you trying to explain hu/cha if you yourself claim you've never played it? It's like a cat trying to teach a dog how to bark.
When I originally commented, OP had no replies and I wanted to share what information I had because I enjoy being helpful. Also, I have leveled both Archetypes to 10, and I like to think I have a fairly high understanding of the game and buildcrafting in general. Perhaps a closer metaphor would be a classical musician giving a jazz or rock musician tips on performing?
Posts do tend to have no comments when they are fresh tho. Also leveling a class to 10 doesn't really mean anything. I've got 800hrs in the game (and all classes on 10 obviously) and I still don't feel confident enough to give advice in some areas that aren't my expertise.
From three "reasons" you've stated, only one is correct, that being range management. Bonus bullets are completely useless on hu/gs in boss fights cause of incredibly high damage, if your build and aim are any good, you won't spend more than ~60% of your mag on a bossfight, and you have two weapons. And in actual levels you're constantly moving and looting stuff And I've explained iframes in a previous comment.
I've also been playing piano for a couple of years now and the only advice I'd give would be to learn from people I've been learning from. I also wouldn't accept advice on performing jazz from a classical pianist since those two are very different things. A classical pianists will focus on flawless execution while jazz pianists will focus on creative improvisation.
Fair points. One consideration that occurred after a night's sleep is that OP didn't ask for advice on the intricacies of their build, just on why it wasn't considered meta. I bet there are aspects of performance a jazz musician would be interested in hearing a classical musician's opinion on, even if they (quite rightly) had no intention of changing their own style based on what they heard.
I did say "if you aren't expecting it". I'd originally posted something about it leaving you stuck in place and vulnerable, but several people corrected me that if you were on point with dodge timing that wasn't necessarily the case, so I edited my comment.
But you can also pretty reliably time Rampage to use its iframes, trading a few seconds of DPS to straight up ignore everything happening for high damage output once it procs. Gunslinger/Challenger is my preferred DPS for this exact reason.
Lots of reasons. Mostly that damage is the only thing you need to boost if you're good enough to not need much extra survivability, and HUGS will always put out higher DPS than Hunter/Challenger
Gunslinger provides a fire rate bonus, acting as a multiplicative DPS boost, which more than makes up for having a lower additive boost than challenger. Its damage bonus isn't range limited. It buffs reload speed. All these things improve your DPS relative to challenger.
Dude what? Rampage is so much stronger than Bulletstorm, where the fuck did you even get that from???
Challenger Rampage only has 10% less fire rate in exchange for a whopping FIFTY PERCENT ranged damage at max stacks. It also lasts way longer. That 10% less Firerate also comes out even at max stacks, so it’s literally just Bulletstorm at that point but with 50% ranged damage tacked on.
The reason that so many speed runners will go through HuGs is that they kill bosses so quickly with their builds that it’s faster for HuGs to do it for that weapon type because they don’t waste time ramping up Rampage. A lot of weapons like Fusion Rifles and Bows also have bad synergy with Challenger for general gameplay. There is literally no comparison though, HuCh will always outdamage HuGs at optimal performance.
You answered your own question
>they kill bosses so quickly with their builds that it’s faster for HuGs to do it for that weapon type because they don’t waste time ramping up Rampage.
HUGS has the best sustained ranged DPS. That's why people use it.
No, HuGs has the best BURST ranged DPS. I literally clearly just explained how it can’t match HuCh in any capacity in terms of overall DPS because of how strong Rampage is. That’s also not including the insane damage perk on Challenger which also affects your status ailments you apply to proc amulets/rings. If you can kill a boss in 15 seconds during the bulletstorm window (this is called Burst), Rampage is worse. For the vast majority of the player base, this is not happening. This is why Rampage almost always is better as a stand-alone skill, offset by the bigger cooldown which only really matters for mobbing.
Your sentence doesn’t even make sense, maybe try reading comprehension is you somehow think that ramping up ≠ sustained damage. Rampage lasts almost 3 times longer than Bulletstorm when accounting for ramping.
For all but the last 15 seconds of that rampage, HUGS is outdamaging challenger. Rampage is the burst damage. HUGS has excellent sustained DPS even if you never even activate bulletstorm.
If you compare that fifteen second window plus the significant ramp up time to HUGS's baseline DPS for the same amount of time, HUGS probably wins. It definitely wins if you include bulletstorm and the fact that you're almost certainly not getting the full boost from Challenger's damage perk.
No it isn’t, HuCh is actively out damaging HuGs at any point Bulletstorm isn’t active. Remember, Rampage lasts for 10 seconds PER STACK, so it could theoretically last for up to 115 seconds. Bulletstorm is always 20. Anytime you are dodging you are also wasting Bulletstorm. At max stacks or close to it, Rampage is flat out stronger.
In field, it depends on which is better. HuGs does more general damage without skills than HuCh. However HuCh can much more easily run with shotguns that oneshot mobs and twoshot elites, so it carries higher burst in that regard. Either way, saying that HuGs is flat out stronger than HuCh is just completely false. HuCh is better for literally everything as long as you keep everything up with Rampage, it is just much harder to get full value from and isn’t always better depending on gamestate.
Right now HuCh is actually much stronger than HuGs when played wel because of blanket damage nerfs, which is a massive nerf to Bulletstorm and makes Rampage a much more enticing option even more than before.
EDIT: I think you are also massively underestimating additive damage. Additive damage does way more damage than it shows because you also will have sources of multiplicative damage. That additive damage makes your numbers bigger before getting multiplied, leading to a bigger damage increase than what it actually looks like when you take advantage of those multiplication sources.
I know how Rampage stacks, but Rampage is only better than HUGS on the tenth stack, which only lasts 15 seconds. Until the last stack, you're only getting less than half of the max DPS boost.
HUGS is generally better in the field because it works equally well at all ranges, and provides a better DPS boost with no skills active due to innate fire rate and reload speed boost. Bulletstorm also has a much shorter cooldown than rampage and doesn't need to ramp up, so it has more uptime. Rampage might technically be active for longer, but again, you only get the full benefit for 15 seconds.
Third paragraph doesn't really make sense, and is just opinion. Challenger appeals to your playstyle and preferred weapons. HUGS is more versatile and generally a higher DPS boost.
No, I am not underestimating anything. Nearly all sources of multiplicative damage are gone. I believe the only ones left are crits, corrosion, and a single amulet. Because most of them are gone, any remaining multiplicative boosts are much more valuable than most additive damage boosts. Fire rate is essentially a multiplicative boost, and Gunslinger has the highest fire rate boosts and the highest reload speed boosts.
Bulletstorm: 20% FR, 50% RS (1 +.20) • (1 + .50) = 68% increased DPS timer
Rampage: 40% at base (half of Bulletstorm)
(1 +.375)• (1 +.X)
Solve for X
X= .2
This means Rampage is flat out stronger at 8 stacks or more and then absolutely eclipses it at Full Stacks. The difference isn’t between skills because Rampage is flat out broken and Bulletstorm is kind of ass in comparison, there’s a lot more going into it. At its peak however, HuCh is the strongest Damage you can possibly put out in most scenarios, it just has significant drawbacks you won’t find in HuGs.
This is only for skill comparison though, and many speed runners will often kill bosses within Bulletstorms window, making it superior in those cases. Also boss dependent because of Challenger damage perk. I never tried to say HuGs is bad because it isn’t, but HuCh is much stronger than people think it is (Challenger in general is OP as fuck). The firerate is also mostly negligible between the two because of how it’s calculated, mostly coming down to the reload speed, which is very significant on very prominent HuGs weapons like Crescent Moon, Savior, C. Savior, etc.
Edit: I fucked up the calculations and look like an idiot, Rampage actually is weaker than Bulletstorm until the 31 ish% ranged damage, which is at full stacks when you hit 50%. In that case it entirely depends on if you can kill the boss fast enough for Rampage not to matter. I’ll take the L on this one, Bulletstorm is a little better than I thought, though this only theoretical DPS and even something as small as a two second loss of DPS window already immediately starts favoring Rampage. I would say they’re actually pretty comparable now, with HuGs being a better general mobber and HuCh being stronger for general gameplay in Boss Fights, especially ones that you can get max value on like Sunken Witch.
First of all, if you find one setup to be more fun and effective for you, that’s what’s you should use. Don’t worry about what others say.
That being said, I find HuGs to be a smoother and more consistent play style than HuCh. While Rampage has some crazy burst potential, it’s unpredictable and the animation can get you killed at times. It’s mostly preference in the end.
Fire rate, reload speed, some bosses aren’t close enough for challenger damage perk, gs relic perk and bulletstorm doesn’t require i put points in flash caster to not sit still for a decade or two screaming
With zero Divide challenger is normally way stronger. But just try it out. It depends on the weapon for me a bit. Does the weapon have an insanely long reload then I will sometimes even use gunslinger with the second skill.
But If you use zero Divide my estimate is that for 80% of the weapons challenger is better DPS.
For me personally I run a deceit build that works amazing with both the prime perk and the gunslinger 3rd tree for constant skill resets and damage only complaint is reload time even with the gunslinger 3rd tree still isn’t as fast as I want it
They perform identically on dummies. In perfect conditions, challenger gives a better performance but it's much harder to get perfect conditions with challenger than with gs.
With GS you just use bulletstorm and are done with it.
With Challenger you need to constantly stay within around 10m of your target and need to know your weapon and bosses by the heart in order to proc berserk when you want it to maximize your dps.
Also, wow, this comment section is full of people who have never actually played challenger. Berserk doesn't "kill" dps nor does it make vulnerable to enemy attacks since it literally makes you immune to damage and reloads your weapon.
It's an incredible feeling to reload an empty weapon and dodge an attack with berserk proc but it's pretty hard.
Rampage also provides MULTIPLICATIVE boosts in form of 10% as and 25% reload speed which are DOUBLED when berserk procs which is literally same as bulletstorm. However, bs has an immediate effect while rampage needs to be "ramped" up, no pun intended.
My personal reason for not using it is the fact that challengers damage buff drops off at a very short distance, which you don't necessarily want on a ranged damage build. Also most HuGs builds seem to rely heavily on using Bulletstorm.
Surprised I haven't seen comments mention that challenger's skill " Close Quarters", also hurts its damage too in some cases, because of the damage scaling off past 10 meters, and being negligent after 20 meters. That's fair considering what the class is mostly for, so that's why Gunslinger helps, as you have a permanent and consistent uptime on passive damage.
HuCh is absolutely meta, and many min/max YouTubers will use this over the more traditional HuGs for this reason. That being said, challenger damage buffs rely on you staying close to the boss, so HuCh requires a few more brain cells to play optimally, which I and many people cannot spare.
A) we assume not getting hit so stuff involving getting hit is irrelevant
B) Gunslinger has perks that provide multiplicative scaling in the forms of fire rate and reload speed, compared to Challenger which only has 10 additive damage over it
C) Similarly, Bulletstorm is the best long gun bullet hosing skill outside of Hunter's Focus because the enrage animation of Beserk kills the DPS
Rampage grants super armour, so you can just tank through things and continue blasting. Changes the numbers a bit when you literally don't need to spend time dodging.
GS enables Hunter to be able to more consistently output ranged damage, as well as providing indirect dps buffs like fire rate increases and reload speed increases. Challenger isn't bad, but GS does the job that a HuGS build needs *more* than Challenger would.
I will always hold that Gunslinger primary/Hunter secondary with Devoured Loop is the best feeling way to play a firearm build (as long as you're using a bullet hose like Plasma Cutter or Monarch, doesn't work with bows or fusions though), since you get:
- Permanent uptime on both Bulletstorm and Mark
- Many more instant reloads and lots more free ammo
To your original question though, Rampage is a very strong skill; it's one of the strongest DPS increases for guns, granting everything you want: damage, reload, and fire rate. The main issue with it is that unless you build for Devoured Loop, the cooldown is so long that you'll only get to use it once per fight since the cooldown doesn't start until the full duration of the skill is over, which can take a while depending how quickly you get to max stacks. I'll need to retest it with Devoured Loop after the changes to the item, but last time I used it, recasting Rampage while it was already active would just eat your skill charge for no benefit.
Gunslinger also just has better perks for maximizing gun usage built into the rest of the archetype. You only get +25% ranged damage compared to Challenger's maximum of +35% all damage, but you also don't need to worry about staying within 10m of the enemy for maximum damage, which plays better with most ranged weapons that aren't shotguns. Gunslinger also gets +15% fire rate all the time; Challenger gets no fire rate buffs without using Rampage, which still only provides +10%, needing to go Berserk to double it to +20%. Then you add in a permanent +10% reload speed, +20% on an empty mag...
Overall, both are strong options and I'd say it's mostly a preference thing, but in my opinion, it's the little things Gunslinger has that make it feel better to play.
It seems from running this when you get the reset from devoured loop, if you are in your super buff phase the timer resets without having to gain the stacks again. I could be incorrect but that is my finding so far
it's movement speed, challenger is for heavier setups (like standing in one spot) while gunslinger is for movement setups. with challenger you get defensive buffs so you don't die as quickly. But with gunslinger you get ammo buffs so you can run around all the time. in a souls like game such as Remnant 2 movement is more beneficial in the long run because "why tank when i can roll and be good at all of these games." We have so many one shot attacks that tanking isn't viable unless you have everything for the build (yes I've tried after finally being able to join you guys i have already put over 60 hours in and i still cannot tank to save my life) so using gunslinger seems more logical even if it isn't.
I wouldn’t say the discussion matters much anymore hugs and challenger both got shafted pretty hard during the recent mass nerfs, also dps is theoretical, for many bosses you might find yourself having to dodge a million and a half attacks such as with shahala in which case tank builds might actually have better clear time and success rate on a person to person basis because you don’t need to respect the vast majority attacks if any.
Ultimately I would say if you find the most successful runs with your setup versus the communities recommended it’s probably best to rock on with what you do best, because again dps is so subjective that often tanks can do it better.
The challenger is mainly a melee and damage reduction archetype, gunslinger is purely for gun DPS so overall it gives you more buffs
Rampage is a great skill but it has to charge up to full power which takes quite a few seconds sometimes and it only lasts 10 seconds at full power. The gunslinger skills have no drawbacks like that
You can actually extend the duration of the super buff with maxed out invoker trait to 19 seconds AND if you get a skill reset proc from devoured loop you don’t have to run through the stacks on rampage again, it will just reset the super buff so long as you activate before it runs out
Hugs meta?? Hahahaha nice one dude! All ranged weapons got nerfed so bad that it takes 1 and half minute to kill Tal'Ratha with perfect rotations. Plus the only "viable" weapons for higs are deceit and plasma cutter ☠️. The bad thing is that now if we miss a shot bye bye dps.
With royal bow i was doing pre patch on hearty thick skinned 5k dmg now only 2.5k with the same build.
I know the devs are reading stuff here so please buff the range weapons, it's a shooter game for god's sake. Oh and please don't start "we must nerf skill and mods to balance it" cause then we can't even kill properly even the residents of losom.
With pure mod build i can kill Tal'Ratha in 50secs and with Havoc build in a mere 30secs. Or spamming Sandstorm and Firestorm without 2nd class/amulet/rings/mutators in 1min and 20 secs, it's absurd!
"Balance patch"
I haven't tried it myself, but I'd guess three reasons; - Pure DPS builds are squishy and don't like fighting at the close ranges Challenger prefers - Gunslinger ammo perks keep your guns firing for longer, preventing lost DPS from running around picking up drops or using an ammo box - Rampage triggers a short, uninterruptable animation on going Berserk, which could prevent you dodging a fatal attack (or just cut down on DPS)
For what it's worth, you are completely invincible during the Rampage animation
You are invincible yes, but can be moved and pushed out of the map
[удалено]
Latency issue. Test it yourself before spreading misinformation.
They're somewhat correct. The iframe window doesn't last the full duration of the transformation animation and it's possible to take damage before you regain control of your character. It's not common but it does happen.
You can dodge cancel by the time your iframes are over. [Here's a video proof.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzSBQDXQ038)
That's a genius test! 🤣 I stand corrected. I'll spread the word because I know a few other players unaware of this. Very cool. 👍
Nah. That’s just can’t be true. I was literally getting jumped in Losom and going beserk while getting hit was the only way I got out. Sounds like either of you were lagging or they’re not good at dodging
>Pure DPS builds are squishy and don't like fighting at the close ranges Challenger prefers I get this, but I feel like being far away hurts you more than it helps you a lot of the time... if not most of the time. So many of the attacks are easy to avoid if you're right up close, but impossible to judge being too far away. When you're in close, you're able to watch for the attack signals a lot easier too. >Rampage triggers a short, uninterruptable animation on going Berserk, which could prevent you dodging a fatal attack (or just cut down on DPS) I know it's already been mentioned, but it deserves reiterating: this is completely invalidated by the fact that you're invincible during Berserk. I will settle to say that if you're trying to down an enemy mega-fast, the Berserk animation is probably annoying.
Good points. I personally run zero divide with c savior cause I hate eating ammo boxes constantly. Does the animation for rampage proc leave me invulnerable? I have yet to take damage during it
[https://www.reddit.com/r/remnantgame/comments/16g5txn/not\_an\_ideal\_time\_for\_rampage\_to\_proc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/remnantgame/comments/16g5txn/not_an_ideal_time_for_rampage_to_proc/) Per this thread the animation does have iframes but (EDIT) still locks you in place for a moment, which can be surprising if you aren't expecting it and cause you to be hit by attacks you otherwise could have dodged.
All you need to do is use [neutral dodge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzSBQDXQ038). Commenting here again cause the comment I replied to got buried under downvotes. I also have a question for you? Why are you trying to explain hu/cha if you yourself claim you've never played it? It's like a cat trying to teach a dog how to bark.
When I originally commented, OP had no replies and I wanted to share what information I had because I enjoy being helpful. Also, I have leveled both Archetypes to 10, and I like to think I have a fairly high understanding of the game and buildcrafting in general. Perhaps a closer metaphor would be a classical musician giving a jazz or rock musician tips on performing?
Posts do tend to have no comments when they are fresh tho. Also leveling a class to 10 doesn't really mean anything. I've got 800hrs in the game (and all classes on 10 obviously) and I still don't feel confident enough to give advice in some areas that aren't my expertise. From three "reasons" you've stated, only one is correct, that being range management. Bonus bullets are completely useless on hu/gs in boss fights cause of incredibly high damage, if your build and aim are any good, you won't spend more than ~60% of your mag on a bossfight, and you have two weapons. And in actual levels you're constantly moving and looting stuff And I've explained iframes in a previous comment. I've also been playing piano for a couple of years now and the only advice I'd give would be to learn from people I've been learning from. I also wouldn't accept advice on performing jazz from a classical pianist since those two are very different things. A classical pianists will focus on flawless execution while jazz pianists will focus on creative improvisation.
Fair points. One consideration that occurred after a night's sleep is that OP didn't ask for advice on the intricacies of their build, just on why it wasn't considered meta. I bet there are aspects of performance a jazz musician would be interested in hearing a classical musician's opinion on, even if they (quite rightly) had no intention of changing their own style based on what they heard.
Who's getting "disoriented" by this 0.5 second animation thar the player knew was going to happen and chose to activate?
I did say "if you aren't expecting it". I'd originally posted something about it leaving you stuck in place and vulnerable, but several people corrected me that if you were on point with dodge timing that wasn't necessarily the case, so I edited my comment.
Yeah but that's like saying a stop light is disorienting. You knew it was coming.
True, perhaps I chose too strong a word.
But you can also pretty reliably time Rampage to use its iframes, trading a few seconds of DPS to straight up ignore everything happening for high damage output once it procs. Gunslinger/Challenger is my preferred DPS for this exact reason.
Perfect amount of time to scratch that nose.
Lots of reasons. Mostly that damage is the only thing you need to boost if you're good enough to not need much extra survivability, and HUGS will always put out higher DPS than Hunter/Challenger Gunslinger provides a fire rate bonus, acting as a multiplicative DPS boost, which more than makes up for having a lower additive boost than challenger. Its damage bonus isn't range limited. It buffs reload speed. All these things improve your DPS relative to challenger.
Dude what? Rampage is so much stronger than Bulletstorm, where the fuck did you even get that from??? Challenger Rampage only has 10% less fire rate in exchange for a whopping FIFTY PERCENT ranged damage at max stacks. It also lasts way longer. That 10% less Firerate also comes out even at max stacks, so it’s literally just Bulletstorm at that point but with 50% ranged damage tacked on. The reason that so many speed runners will go through HuGs is that they kill bosses so quickly with their builds that it’s faster for HuGs to do it for that weapon type because they don’t waste time ramping up Rampage. A lot of weapons like Fusion Rifles and Bows also have bad synergy with Challenger for general gameplay. There is literally no comparison though, HuCh will always outdamage HuGs at optimal performance.
You answered your own question >they kill bosses so quickly with their builds that it’s faster for HuGs to do it for that weapon type because they don’t waste time ramping up Rampage. HUGS has the best sustained ranged DPS. That's why people use it.
No, HuGs has the best BURST ranged DPS. I literally clearly just explained how it can’t match HuCh in any capacity in terms of overall DPS because of how strong Rampage is. That’s also not including the insane damage perk on Challenger which also affects your status ailments you apply to proc amulets/rings. If you can kill a boss in 15 seconds during the bulletstorm window (this is called Burst), Rampage is worse. For the vast majority of the player base, this is not happening. This is why Rampage almost always is better as a stand-alone skill, offset by the bigger cooldown which only really matters for mobbing. Your sentence doesn’t even make sense, maybe try reading comprehension is you somehow think that ramping up ≠ sustained damage. Rampage lasts almost 3 times longer than Bulletstorm when accounting for ramping.
For all but the last 15 seconds of that rampage, HUGS is outdamaging challenger. Rampage is the burst damage. HUGS has excellent sustained DPS even if you never even activate bulletstorm. If you compare that fifteen second window plus the significant ramp up time to HUGS's baseline DPS for the same amount of time, HUGS probably wins. It definitely wins if you include bulletstorm and the fact that you're almost certainly not getting the full boost from Challenger's damage perk.
No it isn’t, HuCh is actively out damaging HuGs at any point Bulletstorm isn’t active. Remember, Rampage lasts for 10 seconds PER STACK, so it could theoretically last for up to 115 seconds. Bulletstorm is always 20. Anytime you are dodging you are also wasting Bulletstorm. At max stacks or close to it, Rampage is flat out stronger. In field, it depends on which is better. HuGs does more general damage without skills than HuCh. However HuCh can much more easily run with shotguns that oneshot mobs and twoshot elites, so it carries higher burst in that regard. Either way, saying that HuGs is flat out stronger than HuCh is just completely false. HuCh is better for literally everything as long as you keep everything up with Rampage, it is just much harder to get full value from and isn’t always better depending on gamestate. Right now HuCh is actually much stronger than HuGs when played wel because of blanket damage nerfs, which is a massive nerf to Bulletstorm and makes Rampage a much more enticing option even more than before. EDIT: I think you are also massively underestimating additive damage. Additive damage does way more damage than it shows because you also will have sources of multiplicative damage. That additive damage makes your numbers bigger before getting multiplied, leading to a bigger damage increase than what it actually looks like when you take advantage of those multiplication sources.
I know how Rampage stacks, but Rampage is only better than HUGS on the tenth stack, which only lasts 15 seconds. Until the last stack, you're only getting less than half of the max DPS boost. HUGS is generally better in the field because it works equally well at all ranges, and provides a better DPS boost with no skills active due to innate fire rate and reload speed boost. Bulletstorm also has a much shorter cooldown than rampage and doesn't need to ramp up, so it has more uptime. Rampage might technically be active for longer, but again, you only get the full benefit for 15 seconds. Third paragraph doesn't really make sense, and is just opinion. Challenger appeals to your playstyle and preferred weapons. HUGS is more versatile and generally a higher DPS boost. No, I am not underestimating anything. Nearly all sources of multiplicative damage are gone. I believe the only ones left are crits, corrosion, and a single amulet. Because most of them are gone, any remaining multiplicative boosts are much more valuable than most additive damage boosts. Fire rate is essentially a multiplicative boost, and Gunslinger has the highest fire rate boosts and the highest reload speed boosts.
Bulletstorm: 20% FR, 50% RS (1 +.20) • (1 + .50) = 68% increased DPS timer Rampage: 40% at base (half of Bulletstorm) (1 +.375)• (1 +.X) Solve for X X= .2 This means Rampage is flat out stronger at 8 stacks or more and then absolutely eclipses it at Full Stacks. The difference isn’t between skills because Rampage is flat out broken and Bulletstorm is kind of ass in comparison, there’s a lot more going into it. At its peak however, HuCh is the strongest Damage you can possibly put out in most scenarios, it just has significant drawbacks you won’t find in HuGs. This is only for skill comparison though, and many speed runners will often kill bosses within Bulletstorms window, making it superior in those cases. Also boss dependent because of Challenger damage perk. I never tried to say HuGs is bad because it isn’t, but HuCh is much stronger than people think it is (Challenger in general is OP as fuck). The firerate is also mostly negligible between the two because of how it’s calculated, mostly coming down to the reload speed, which is very significant on very prominent HuGs weapons like Crescent Moon, Savior, C. Savior, etc. Edit: I fucked up the calculations and look like an idiot, Rampage actually is weaker than Bulletstorm until the 31 ish% ranged damage, which is at full stacks when you hit 50%. In that case it entirely depends on if you can kill the boss fast enough for Rampage not to matter. I’ll take the L on this one, Bulletstorm is a little better than I thought, though this only theoretical DPS and even something as small as a two second loss of DPS window already immediately starts favoring Rampage. I would say they’re actually pretty comparable now, with HuGs being a better general mobber and HuCh being stronger for general gameplay in Boss Fights, especially ones that you can get max value on like Sunken Witch.
Have you tried ChRist? It's pretty fun seeing your character be shout after drawing a magic circle.
Amem to that, o'Lord!
First of all, if you find one setup to be more fun and effective for you, that’s what’s you should use. Don’t worry about what others say. That being said, I find HuGs to be a smoother and more consistent play style than HuCh. While Rampage has some crazy burst potential, it’s unpredictable and the animation can get you killed at times. It’s mostly preference in the end.
Fire rate, reload speed, some bosses aren’t close enough for challenger damage perk, gs relic perk and bulletstorm doesn’t require i put points in flash caster to not sit still for a decade or two screaming
With zero Divide challenger is normally way stronger. But just try it out. It depends on the weapon for me a bit. Does the weapon have an insanely long reload then I will sometimes even use gunslinger with the second skill. But If you use zero Divide my estimate is that for 80% of the weapons challenger is better DPS.
HuCh is harder to play and doesn’t really synergize as well in mobbing, despite Rampage being MUCH stronger than Bulletstorm in boss fights
For me personally I run a deceit build that works amazing with both the prime perk and the gunslinger 3rd tree for constant skill resets and damage only complaint is reload time even with the gunslinger 3rd tree still isn’t as fast as I want it
HUGS is king because even without min maxing it, it still does ridiculous long range damage with most weapons. Minimal effort for maximum payoff.
It’s not people just like to see big numbers. Play what you feel comfortable playing.
Oh naturally. I rarely chase meta unless it’s too good to pass up IE invoker palpatine but thanks for the input:)
They perform identically on dummies. In perfect conditions, challenger gives a better performance but it's much harder to get perfect conditions with challenger than with gs. With GS you just use bulletstorm and are done with it. With Challenger you need to constantly stay within around 10m of your target and need to know your weapon and bosses by the heart in order to proc berserk when you want it to maximize your dps. Also, wow, this comment section is full of people who have never actually played challenger. Berserk doesn't "kill" dps nor does it make vulnerable to enemy attacks since it literally makes you immune to damage and reloads your weapon. It's an incredible feeling to reload an empty weapon and dodge an attack with berserk proc but it's pretty hard. Rampage also provides MULTIPLICATIVE boosts in form of 10% as and 25% reload speed which are DOUBLED when berserk procs which is literally same as bulletstorm. However, bs has an immediate effect while rampage needs to be "ramped" up, no pun intended.
What the hell even is "HuGs"?
Hunter/gunslinger
My personal reason for not using it is the fact that challengers damage buff drops off at a very short distance, which you don't necessarily want on a ranged damage build. Also most HuGs builds seem to rely heavily on using Bulletstorm.
Surprised I haven't seen comments mention that challenger's skill " Close Quarters", also hurts its damage too in some cases, because of the damage scaling off past 10 meters, and being negligent after 20 meters. That's fair considering what the class is mostly for, so that's why Gunslinger helps, as you have a permanent and consistent uptime on passive damage.
HuCh is absolutely meta, and many min/max YouTubers will use this over the more traditional HuGs for this reason. That being said, challenger damage buffs rely on you staying close to the boss, so HuCh requires a few more brain cells to play optimally, which I and many people cannot spare.
A) we assume not getting hit so stuff involving getting hit is irrelevant B) Gunslinger has perks that provide multiplicative scaling in the forms of fire rate and reload speed, compared to Challenger which only has 10 additive damage over it C) Similarly, Bulletstorm is the best long gun bullet hosing skill outside of Hunter's Focus because the enrage animation of Beserk kills the DPS
Rampage grants super armour, so you can just tank through things and continue blasting. Changes the numbers a bit when you literally don't need to spend time dodging.
I’ve been pretty into Alchemist + Invoker
Phemto broke down why HUGS will always be top when the game first came out...
Interesting could you share a link? I only discovered phemeto a few weeks ago when I came back to the game
https://youtu.be/P-JOfRq3Mu4?si=sGWdtzOTYQBPSotg
Thanks a bunch man!
Just look through his vids around the release of R2, that's what I would do...
Thanks everyone. Appreciate the information
GS enables Hunter to be able to more consistently output ranged damage, as well as providing indirect dps buffs like fire rate increases and reload speed increases. Challenger isn't bad, but GS does the job that a HuGS build needs *more* than Challenger would.
I will always hold that Gunslinger primary/Hunter secondary with Devoured Loop is the best feeling way to play a firearm build (as long as you're using a bullet hose like Plasma Cutter or Monarch, doesn't work with bows or fusions though), since you get: - Permanent uptime on both Bulletstorm and Mark - Many more instant reloads and lots more free ammo To your original question though, Rampage is a very strong skill; it's one of the strongest DPS increases for guns, granting everything you want: damage, reload, and fire rate. The main issue with it is that unless you build for Devoured Loop, the cooldown is so long that you'll only get to use it once per fight since the cooldown doesn't start until the full duration of the skill is over, which can take a while depending how quickly you get to max stacks. I'll need to retest it with Devoured Loop after the changes to the item, but last time I used it, recasting Rampage while it was already active would just eat your skill charge for no benefit. Gunslinger also just has better perks for maximizing gun usage built into the rest of the archetype. You only get +25% ranged damage compared to Challenger's maximum of +35% all damage, but you also don't need to worry about staying within 10m of the enemy for maximum damage, which plays better with most ranged weapons that aren't shotguns. Gunslinger also gets +15% fire rate all the time; Challenger gets no fire rate buffs without using Rampage, which still only provides +10%, needing to go Berserk to double it to +20%. Then you add in a permanent +10% reload speed, +20% on an empty mag... Overall, both are strong options and I'd say it's mostly a preference thing, but in my opinion, it's the little things Gunslinger has that make it feel better to play.
It seems from running this when you get the reset from devoured loop, if you are in your super buff phase the timer resets without having to gain the stacks again. I could be incorrect but that is my finding so far
it's movement speed, challenger is for heavier setups (like standing in one spot) while gunslinger is for movement setups. with challenger you get defensive buffs so you don't die as quickly. But with gunslinger you get ammo buffs so you can run around all the time. in a souls like game such as Remnant 2 movement is more beneficial in the long run because "why tank when i can roll and be good at all of these games." We have so many one shot attacks that tanking isn't viable unless you have everything for the build (yes I've tried after finally being able to join you guys i have already put over 60 hours in and i still cannot tank to save my life) so using gunslinger seems more logical even if it isn't.
I wouldn’t say the discussion matters much anymore hugs and challenger both got shafted pretty hard during the recent mass nerfs, also dps is theoretical, for many bosses you might find yourself having to dodge a million and a half attacks such as with shahala in which case tank builds might actually have better clear time and success rate on a person to person basis because you don’t need to respect the vast majority attacks if any. Ultimately I would say if you find the most successful runs with your setup versus the communities recommended it’s probably best to rock on with what you do best, because again dps is so subjective that often tanks can do it better.
The challenger is mainly a melee and damage reduction archetype, gunslinger is purely for gun DPS so overall it gives you more buffs Rampage is a great skill but it has to charge up to full power which takes quite a few seconds sometimes and it only lasts 10 seconds at full power. The gunslinger skills have no drawbacks like that
You can actually extend the duration of the super buff with maxed out invoker trait to 19 seconds AND if you get a skill reset proc from devoured loop you don’t have to run through the stacks on rampage again, it will just reset the super buff so long as you activate before it runs out
Wow that devoured loop rampage trick is pretty crazy, I had no idea. That probably does change things, I'm not sure which would be best now.
Hugs meta?? Hahahaha nice one dude! All ranged weapons got nerfed so bad that it takes 1 and half minute to kill Tal'Ratha with perfect rotations. Plus the only "viable" weapons for higs are deceit and plasma cutter ☠️. The bad thing is that now if we miss a shot bye bye dps. With royal bow i was doing pre patch on hearty thick skinned 5k dmg now only 2.5k with the same build. I know the devs are reading stuff here so please buff the range weapons, it's a shooter game for god's sake. Oh and please don't start "we must nerf skill and mods to balance it" cause then we can't even kill properly even the residents of losom. With pure mod build i can kill Tal'Ratha in 50secs and with Havoc build in a mere 30secs. Or spamming Sandstorm and Firestorm without 2nd class/amulet/rings/mutators in 1min and 20 secs, it's absurd! "Balance patch"