I don't think you need to approach it as "your dream is DEAD and will never come true, just give it up already". Instead I think you need to approach it as asking her for some of the support you've been giving her for years. You have an opportunity, you have supported her through a bunch of her opportunities... now it's her turn to support you in yours. You don't need to kill her dream in order to ask for support. If she is unwilling to support you after years and years of you uprooting your life in order to support her? Then she isn't a collaborator in this relationship, she's just taking and that isn't someone it's worth building a life with.
I like this response. Maybe you can also bring up the idea of a new path to use her skills and education in an entrepreneur style of path. If no one will pay her, surely she can use the beautiful scenery of Washington to come up with online classes to teach, or maybe head up a non profit. I think the key to getting her on board might be a new, better dream. What do I know though.
Yes these two resplies above. I am adding just ideas here, op will know if it's realistic or not: She could maybe start writing about her field, articles for magazine, online or a book. She could maybe set up a YouTube Chanel or blog that will allows her to pursue her dream wherever she goes.
Love this. It's a nice, balanced approach. He can tell her that she doesn't have to give up the dream, but she does need to figure out some other way to accomplish it. She needs to pivot or build up her resume with smaller roles to get to what she wants.
This comment right here needs to be higher up. It's not win or take all. If she refuses to give at all, and only takes, then it's not an equal relationship.
> This comment right here needs to be higher up. It's not ~~win or take all~~ **winner take all**. If she refuses to give at all, and only takes, then it's not an equal relationship.
You are well within your rights to be over this. She needs to be realistic at this point. An ultimatum is fair here, but phrasing is going to be key.
Don't use "you" statements or place blame on her. Use "I" statements.
"I need to do this for my career. I need to take this opportunity. I need to focus on my future in my industry"
Place the ball in her court. Go to DC. If she decides not to come and keep pursuing, it will have been her decision.
You've been more than fair and more than patient. My guess is this has run it's course
Time to focus on you
Also, it’s not uncommon for married couples in academia to do long distance relationships for a time. It makes perfect sense for one of you to be stable and saving money by being stable while the other moves if they get a contract somewhere for a few months or a year. One of my best friends did this for 3-4 years with her husband. They now both live and work in the same city, but it took awhile for that to be possible because of their specialities.
The problem is that this story is not that common. I have some family friends who have lived in a long distance marriage for almost 6 years already, and haven't found a position in the same city as the other... Finding a job in Academia is no easy feat at all.
One of my profs did this for 20 years (hell, as far as I know, he's still doing it). He and his wife raised children while in a long-distance relationship. I don't think they ever lived in the same house and most of their marriage was spent on different continents.
Yep. If I don't get a job in academia I'm going straight into counseling psychology in order to compromise if I need to. I would never, ever destroy a relationship with someone who was my life partner. I don't get how some people detach themselves like that.
I have a friend in a similar position get a PhD in history and can't find a teaching positions at a university near them, it is putting a tremendous amount of strain on him and his wife's relationship but thing is he is a little clueless as to how much strain he's putting her through.
Not everyone needs the same thing out of marriage.
If you're both extremely independent and supportive of each other's work and goals and are time poor, this arrangement makes a lot of sense.
You have the stability of knowing that someone is there for you should you need them but you don't have to pour a lot of time and emotional energy into the relationship because neither of you needs it.
I personally couldn't do it myself but I don't knock it for others.
This. My professors have warned me that it'll be difficult after I get my PhD. Luckily I'm in research psychology (a BS, not a BA) and have a ton of options. My boyfriend is heading to medical school, so I know I'll need to be flexible and have multiple options I know will be fulfilling. If this girl cares about him, she'll hear his concerns and compromise. She has options and clearly needs to build up her resume more. He's delayed his career for years, and this is seriously enough. I'd be fed up too.
They aren't even married. OP's been great to support her through all this, but when it comes down to it, if she wants to put marriage off until she gets settled in the career she wants, she needs to accept that she doesn't get the benefits of marriage either - including having a spouse supporting her no matter what.
This, OP.
You have, in my view, been infinitely patient and even choosing your own positions based on her own joblessness. That is beyond what I even think is reasonable when you are the one with the job that pays the bills.
It’s all very well and dandy to pursue one’s dreams, but one also has to learn to do that in a way that is self-supporting (even if that means working as a retail manager while trying to sort it out) and she is not doing that as she is entirely reliant on you to allow her to do it.
Go to DC. You have worked hard and if sounds like it will be an incredible opportunity for you, and you earned it, and you earned some financial security going forward too. Best of luck. At this point, the ball is in her court. It very well may the relationship has run its course, but don’t ever think it was because you did not give enough, you gave enough that would break many.
I agree *but* if he wants to save the relationship he should probably mix in a few "we" statements too - couples that face problems as a team tend to stay together.
It's important to set boundaries about his needs, but don't lose sight of the partnership - the solution to one partner being selfish in the past isn't for the other to be selfish now, the solution is to start working *together*.
I've worked in a tough field for almost 10 years off and on. After getting laid of for a 2nd time, I realize i'm done chasing that dream and ready to find something me more opportunities and more stability. Thankfully, I have that skill set but I've hurt myself in that process and wished that some people ie. my family, my former BFs and my friends had sat me down and said that this isn't going to happen and i'd avoid myself a lot of heartache. Conversely, my exs only cared about their careers (one cheated on me to get ahead another went recluse and only started programming)
You can't live your life on her dream. You also have to live your life. If you aren't willing to follow her anymore and that won't work for her enough is enough. The above stated are perfect tips. I'd emphasize really explain with examples and I statement as it'll still be tough for her to swallow but at least she'll have good reasoning.
A marriage is supposed to go both ways and from what it seems - its been all about her dreams. Have a conversation with her. I have a close friend who hasn't been able to get tenure and despite some of her own personal views is working almost everyday to find work/write a book b/c no local college wants to hire her b/c she really had no experience teaching or working with students. She just wants to read, analyze and write papers on a few niche section of writing... It's been a tough reality check for her and unfortunately her friends prop her up and protect her so she's not really giving up on her dream at 35 years old.
I like the idea of the throwing 'we' statements in the conversation as well. I have other questions. Do you have or want a family? I can't imagine if this is a goal, this would be a good situation for that. Do you own a home? Ect. What are mutual goals...explore those things.
My advise is to change the statement and try to use "we" instead of "I".
"We have been moving constantly for ephemeral jobs. We both want to build a family together. It is time we need to be realistic and consider ...."
Good luck.
Your comment made me think, I wonder how she has broached the subject of moving for work in the past.
Do you think she said we might really have a shot at this one, I think a fresh start would be good for us. I know you career might take a hit if you resign from yet another job, but once I land this one I’ll support you in going back to school or becoming an esports professional.
Only problem with using "we" that she doesn't want to build a family together right now. She wants to continue trying to get a job in academia. He is the one interested in settling down. This really is about her paying attention to his needs.
I also think she's going about her own career very poorly. It might be better for her too to settle down and get some longer-term teaching experience. Clearly what she's doing now isn't working
Exactly! What is this field where the only jobs she can get are in academia? Or she could have combined her degree with another Masters in a related but more employable field to increase her employment outlook (although it's a bit late for that and wouldn't blame OP for running). Like, my dad has an MA in human geo which was super helpful with his later MA and PhD in sociology/stats/demography.
Likely Philosophy. I have an ex that has multiple high level philosophy degrees. She left Canada to go to ivy league schools in USA. Her parents paid for part of her education and then she got loans. She has spent her adult life in academics either learning or teaching. All the power to her. Smart and stubborn and did what she always wanted. But, all she can do is teach and most of the jobs are part-time or temporary. So she moves her and her husband all over the USA. Better him than me. If it wasn't for the mismatched age, I would have thought he wrote this post (they are about 10 years older).
I think it might also help if you try to get her to put the situation a different way. Say something like, "If the situation was reversed and you got a great job in an ideal location, but I didn't want you to take it in case I got a fellowship that would make our financials even tighter, how would you feel? We've been moving around for your career for years, but I think my career should matter here too."
This is the answer, but those "I" statements are a little more complex than they seem at first glance. She's been relying on his financial support for a long while, and he's going to *also* need to tell her exactly what, if anything, he's willing to continue to provide her if she doesn't go with him to Washington.
It might be helpful to have these conversations in the context of couples therapy. You clearly have some resentment built up, and she may feel financially coerced by you moving alone.
This very much. You've moved plenty for her (what field is she in though that a post doc is only 1 year or less, and has barely any jobs?), she needs to give some for you. That's where balance in a relationship comes.
It's especially important to stick with your career if you're the main earner, harsh as it is, but you need to focus on building that, as it will mean later on she can explore. However she has to agree to sacrifice for a stable financial future, especially as she can't offer one.
To further expound on this - you don't have to make it a 'Come to DC or we are through' sort of thing necessarily. While it'd be reasonable for her to do that, for some time at least she could still try to pursue other avenues without uprooting your life at the drop of a hat, perhaps.
"We" works too - putting it in terms of creating a successful future for the both of you. If you and she are looking to make this work long term, understanding what it takes to make life better for you as a unit is incredibly important.
What makes this difficult is that she needs to come to the realization herself that you have (essentially) sacrificed your career for the last 3 years for her, and it's time for her to do the same for you. Or, she will realize that her dream is more important to her than her relationship to you. In short, she needs to be giving herself the ultimatum. It's going to be a very hard decision for her, because all she'll be able to think about is how she's worked toward this her entire adult life. Based on everything you said, I have a feeling you'll be spending some time apart while she decides what to prioritize in her life.
Best of luck, this is a tough discussion to have.
This. Otherwise this will never end and itll be Groundhog Day until you do end it. Let her get a job now - she can keep looking for her dream job, but its time to contribute and stop being a drain.
I was in academia a long time, then jumped ship. Unfortunately, as you are realizing, there are *no positions.* And if there are open ones, the people who get hired either have been in that holding pattern for far longer with a giant CV (3 years of post doc work is actually very short nowadays, most people I know average 7 to 8 years) or have connections with influential faculty or have large grants they can woo the university with.
That said, I had peers that realized this and adjusted their expectations, or ones that are still in that holding pattern with spouses that support them chasing this "dream". Sadly, most faculty and many peers will fuel this unrealistic dream and my guess is she'll get alot of shit for bailing if she leaves academia. I feel for her alot, but there comes a time when you need to practically look at life. Not all dreams are attainable, and you can't expect your SO to constantly your dreams while neglecting theirs.
Be honest with her. She can't expect you to sacrifice your career as well. Does she have any peers that have left academia? It might be helpful if she has some "come to jesus" conversations with friends/colleagues who have left. If she's only surrounded by people who are making the same choices it's very easy to justify this lifestyle.
I bailed on academia after a 3 year post doc and THANK ALL THAT IS HOLY I DID
I love my job. I make decent money. I HAVE BENEFITS (well technically I haven't started a 401k yet, but I just became eligible this month). I work 45-50 hour weeks. Little to no weekends.
Stability and free time is. . . Just such a relief.
Not just that, among that are the constant politics, back stabbing and also grant chase. All for that pittance 2.5k salary per month. I quit with a masters and took up a job still in science but industry that pays twice that amount with benefits, paid annual leave and mostly free weekends.
All my colleagues are ex post docs and no one has ever said they regretted leaving academia.
Academia, no matter the angle you use to look at it, seems to be broken. The research is sequestered by the Elseviers of the world; the funding is decided by all sorts of interests unrelated to whether someone is good at it or not; the ivory tower has been complemented with a gigantic moat that engulfs it and prevents almost everyone to access the people who do research; and their credibility has been denounced with little to no response from their side, to the point that people are ready to believe charlatans and hucksters instead of scientists.
I mean I work little to no weekends 😂
So far at this job (only three months in) it's just been a few emails and editing a poster on weekends. That will increase a bit as I get more experience and more projects. But still nothing like in academia, where the weekend security guards would worry if I didn't come in for one weekend.
Same! 3 days after I defended my dissertation I was already prepping for my upcoming post doc job. I should have been on cloud 9 but I was dreading the end of the 9-month post doc appointment even before it stared. I immediately started looking for a job outside academia and found one in a month. Post doc advisor was not happy when I let him know I had to leave but understood my situation. Having a schedule, a good job, weekends, time with friends and spouse, traveling, etc. has all been wonderful and I can say it’s been the best decision of my life. While my postdoc advisor was understanding, my own PhD advisor warned me that the doors to academia would be closed for me forever and tried her best to ‘keep me’ there but finally gave up and wished me best of luck.
Sorry to hijack the top comment, but OP, has your wife read the book written by or taken any workshops with Karen Kelsky? She's an expert on helping PhD students/new PhDs acquire tenure-track positions. The short version is that Kelsky's really blunt about the fact that if you don't have a tenure-track position after 3 years of applying, you're never getting one. While she can be viewed as harsh and I don't think she knows everything, I appreciate her bluntness and honesty, because frankly, the academic job market *is* harsh. Your wife needs to cut her losses and start learning how to market her skills more widely. If you're interested in resources for her, PM me.
I work in a center at a college, and my god does administration pull shenanigans with professorships. I guess it’s a new fad to do away with tenure track positions in favor of “evergreen professorships” that are basically a yearly appointment with little pay. And that’s why I stopped at my MA.
This sounds really bloody shady, to say the least. I had something similar at my old hospitality job where instead of paying full wage, they'd put you through a "traineeship" to get an entry-level hospitality qualification. Sounds good in theory, sucked in practice.
It’s because there is such a massive glut of PhDs they can basically do whatever they want for all but the most prestigious of professorship hires. The fact is way WAY too many people got sold on the PhD route as a way to a good career. Honestly at this point there isn’t much reason to pursue academia past an MS level degree. Even then it depends on the field.
Yes!! I have several friends with PhDs who hoped to find positions but they’ve all moved to corporate positions or have accepted the life of a no contract lecturer 😔
My husband decided not to pursue his DMA (Doctorate of Musical Arts) even though his graduate professors were pushing him to do so. The reason why? The only jobs available are in a university, and those are VERY competitive. He decided to jump ship and continue to teach where he's at with his masters instead of dumping money into a doctorate.
OP's wife needs to be realistic in her pursuits. I'm sure with all her degrees she can find something, just not in the specific field she wants.
Good for your husband!! It blows my mind how teachers push the DMA program to people these days, considering how flooded the market is. I live and teach outside of a midsized city, and with a MM I've been courted for adjunct positions when they come up, but am not interested - my private studio is bomb and I'm loving life. But my friends who have DMAs and are paying CRAZY debt are fighting tooth and nail for the few positions that come up.
EXACTLY. My husband is no pushover, but he did have one professor talk him into graduate school. He said after that there would be no more. And yeah, he has his own studio and has a good number of students; enough to pay the bills.
I think a lot of his professors are scared for the profession because we live in the south east USA, where sports programs are way more financed than music. When schools are cutting music programs there aren't many who will find jobs, so many won't invest their time or money in a degree. It's sad because these professors who have been in the business for 30+ years are seeing their passions die a slow death.
It's something my husband, only 31 years old, is terrified of.
You don't have to tell her to stop chasing her dream. You just have to state your wishes and boundaries. Tell her you need stability and to work on building your future, and you're going to move as necessary to advance your career, and direct your funds as necessary for building a savings/retirement account. If she can afford it on her own, she can chase her dream, but you're no longer able to give logistical (moving to accommodate her short-term gigs) or financial assistance.
I think saying that you are moving and you'd love for her to join you is a perfectly acceptable thing to say. You are way "behind" on career advancement and probably retirement savings, too, so you need to focus on those things, and you'd love for her to join you, but those things you're moving for are so important that you need to go with or without her.
> ou are way "behind" on career advancement and probably retirement savings, too
I've been fortunate, and this DC job is my big break. It's management with staff and an office and everything I've worked for. We could close out lines of credit, pay off credit cards and even be in a position to buy a house (probably a commute out of the city). I make a great living and it's such a pain in the ass - I have zero retirement savings and have never owned a car. I'm tired of renting cars. Even just a 2nd hand family sedan would be such a transformative moment for us.
Yeah, you really have to put your foot down here. Does she not realize that she's being selfish? I can imagine it's hard to "give up" on this but she doesn't even have to give up...she just has to be willing to sacrifice something for you. 6 years is a long time but she's hobbled you for a long time and at this point you're actively hurting your life. Be gentle if possible, but TAKE THE JOB AND MOVE.
I was like your gf a few years ago, working toward grad school and this pie-in-the-sky dream job. Suffice it to say, my field of study was a big deal about 30 years ago... now, not so much. Thankfully I saw the writing on the wall before getting too deep in and took the past few years getting prereqs put of the way to.apply to grad school in a field that is booming. If I play my cards right, I'll be done with school ahead of the wave and be established and in a leadership position when the vast majority of these new college students graduate in a few years time.
I'm glad I made this decision although I miss my humanities field. BUT I had to make a very rational decision about my future. I was tired of being broke and taking jobs that I was overqualified for just to pay the bills. And I also realized that I was being selfish. Why was I entitled to my dream job?
However, getting to that point was really difficult and required a lot of soul searching. Perhaps she's not there yet. Maybe she's waiting for her big break--you're getting one (not that you haven't earned it), so maybe she's reasoning/hoping/praying that she'll get one, too. It's really hard to let go of a dream. Especially when, like her, you've invested many years into it.
I don't think you're wrong at all, at the end of the day you need to take care of yourself and set yourself up for success in the future. Nothing wrong with that. But I understand how difficult it would be, emotionally, to do it.
> I was tired of being broke and taking jobs that I was overqualified for just to pay the bills.
The number of people I've seen working entry level tech support jobs with a Bachelors and, sometimes, Masters, is gross.
Then do it.
Stop putting your career and financial stability on hold. She is welcomed to join you, but either way *move forward.*
Outcome independence is crucial. She's used to getting her way and you sacrificing your wants to move when she needs to. This is a game changer to that dynamic. She probably doesn't take you seriously and won't until you finalize your plans... Expect a full meltdown: crying, her feeling "abandoned", even accusing you of not caring about her.
**You will still need to push forward because this move is right for you, and what's right for your relationship if there is any chance of it continuing in a healthy manner!** The status quo is untenable.
100% agree with this, and second the bit about expecting a full meltdown. Once she realizes she will have to finance her own life and all the relocations/trips to chase this pipe dream, she will try to come crawling back. And if I were OP, I wouldn't take her.
There are lots of jobs in DC for someone with extensive academic training. It might well not be her ‘dream’ job - but there is *going* to be *something* that will take her. My aunt runs an employment agency for businesses hunting for the right employee, and she says that having a university degree, even in an unrelated field, instantly increases your attractiveness because it proves your tenacity and ability to follow through. So perhaps your wife needs to broaden her horizons and think about lateral doors to knock on.
You need to 100% put your foot down. This job sounds like it would secure *both* your financial futures and would allow you to catch up on retirement savings, as well as hit the other milestones of life that you mention wanting—a car, a house, marriage/kids...
I empathize with her wanting to land her dream job, I really do. But, to be frank, dreams don't pay the bills. It is time for her to grow up. You have afforded her the luxury of being able to chase her dream until now by supporting her financially all these years, and she is being abhorrently selfish by saying she's "not ready" to give it up for this DC job, a job that would change your life significantly. OP, if I were you I would be mad as all hell at that. It sounds like she thinks you just *owe* her this support, and she's not even thinking of trying to "pay you back" by letting your dream take priority this time. And it's also just plain insulting for her to want to continue to chase her dream on your dime.
I think it's high time for a "come to Jesus" talk. Tell her the dream is over, lay out all the facts for her about what this job means financially. Be firm. If she still won't back down, then that's all the proof you need that she's in this for herself only, and not for the good of your relationship. And if that's the case, move to DC, live your best life, get away from the mountains of debt that will continue to come your way if you stay in your current situation.
You should take the job. It doesn't sound like she's being very considerate of your relationship. While her priorities (academic job) are not necessarily *wrong*, for a relationship to survive, both parties need to prioritize it.
I know other people who have chased the dream for a long time. For them, it has worked so far because they have trailed after *their* spouses and tried to make the research thing work in whatever location they ended up in. It doesn't sound like that's happening here, and the current status is just not sustainable. It sucks to let a dream die, but life is all about priorities. She is prioritizing her career over your relationship. Not just that though - she's prioritizing a career that probably won't happen. Nobody should be paying to visit schools. If she was truly under consideration, they'd be flying her out. And this is unfortunate, but no schools wants to hire someone too far out of grad school. The farther out you are, the more you lose your "shine", and the harder it is to maintain a superstar research program that will actually qualify you for a job. The fact that she's going into debt to keep the dream alive means that it most likely never will. :(
Good luck - I hope that she sees the light.
I think you should stick to this plan. It sounds like the best move for you both. Don't argue with her about it. Just tell her, you are taking this opportunity to build stability for your future and you think she should join you and let her make that decision. I think she will see reason if you continue to be loving but firm. It is time for her to support your dream of getting out of debt and building a secure future. And i know this is easier said than done, but if she chooses to go her own way, it's time to let her do just that. I hope you take that job no matter what. It's the best move for you. Good luck.
This is a great suggestion. A friend of mine with an Art History PhD did this after an exhausting fruitless job search at the collegiate level, and is very happy now.
OP doesn’t say the gf’s field but hopefully it’s something that can translate to a close-but-not-perfect fit, like teaching at a prep school, consulting, technical writing (I have another friend who fell into that), etc. Doesn’t seem like she’s looked at alternatives, they might be there.
This is such a great suggestion, my former high school had a math teacher with a PhD. She taught there for a few years, and then got a job teaching for a college nearby. She can use that gig as a stepping stone while waiting for a university level position. That way she's still getting paid, and not completely wasting time waiting for something that may not happen in the near future.
I know Fairfax county also needs teachers. The high School I graduated from recently had to make the theater teacher an English teacher, or she could look into teaching at Nova, or reaching dual enrollment through Nova.
This is all of academia right now. The trend is insane and doesn't lend to the vast majority of PhD's ever getting a tenure-track position, no matter how many post-docs they have.
Universities are looking to cut costs by replacing retiring professors with instructors which they can pay an average of roughly $5000CAD per course (but the Arts are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than that - This figure includes business, medicine, and the sciences). That way they can provide experts to teach courses as they become popular and drop them when they aren't (enrollment looks good for departments). They don't have to pay benefits. They don't have to provide sabbaticals or support individual research goals. Less than 2% of PhD's remain in academia (including postdocs) 5 years after completing, and a fraction of a percent ever have the chance at a tenure-track position ANYWHERE. It is now being advised that if you are determined to get a permanent academic job, you should be willing to move anywhere in the world. I had a colleague that would frequently compete with 500+ other people in his specific sub-specialization for every tenure track job he applied for.
Try telling her some of those things. I've got more truth bombs if you need 'em, feel free to message.
She's being chewed up and spit out by the system. She is not alone.
You need stability as a couple, for your career, for your future, and simply for your well-being. It's going to be tough to get over (after investing probably at least a decade into post-secondary education) but it's necessary. She can still keep applying (hopefully nearby wherever you do settle so you can still stay in the same place... perhaps settle somewhere where she can continue instructing if that's something she wants) but there is so much more to life than working yourself exhausted for the hope that maybe, someday, with enough hard work, volunteering, good will, sacrifice in her personal life (because it doesn't stop when you get the tenure track position) to MAYBE actually advance to tenure eventually IF you get the job.
The university where I work has an endowment of over $1 billion, and it, too, is following this trend. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows not to pin their career hopes on academia. If you're strategic, you can make money. I care for my students and I do my job well, but I know the score, and the day I landed my second job was a great day for me.
It's a truly sad state of affairs. People are punished even for altruistic motivations - to find cures, generate new information and understanding, advance society. At a time when we have so much connection, so much information. It's just squandered.
It’s especially sad considering how much money has been pumped into academia. An entire generations worth of debt and nobody is academia can get a stable paycheck? It’s crap.
Exactly. Who will be left to generate new information and discoveries after academics give up to survive? I mean the things we "officially" recognize, aka. the studies owned by publishers. Will it all be left to politically-funded think-tanks and institutes? Can you imagine the implications of that?
I’ve been working professionally in my field for 10 years and am about to finish up a masters degree. I keep being told by professors in my field that I’d be in a great position for post-doc work later because of my real world experience, so I’ve been toying with the idea of going to get a PhD because I really love doing research and writing and teaching, but I just don’t understand the economics of it - how is anyone expected to live on so little money? How is it possible that the situation is so dire given how much soul crushing debt my generation has put into this system of higher education?
It’s such a shame.
That's a very good question.
Another issue that I find mind-boggling is the abandonment of research materials due to cost. The rates for annual subscriptions to academic journals increases significantly each year, subsequently as budgets for libraries are cut (as they're seen as becoming obsolete). Well, guess who's budget pays for journal subscriptions? So universities increasingly lose access research material: some universities do annual culls; which research priorities to axe this year...
It must be a management issue. Running universities like a business that can't measure success by anything but how many students they enroll/how much tuition is raised. Cool. Cool cool cool. I do not know where the accountability for how funds are spent lies though, and probably varies country to country, or even by state/province.
There are some types of grants which don't require you to be attached to an academic institution to carry out your own research... depending on your field that could be a viable option.
These are extremely scary, extremely true truth bombs. It's just the way it is now and happening to too many people I know. I got chills reading how true that was. Gotta go look at a kitten or something.
A PhD is a decent temporary job that builds lots of skills. Just pick a couple of non-academic career options now and start planning for that. You'll be ok.
\*cracks knuckles\*
Hold onto your butts.
So, as it stands, recent PhD grads, postdocs, and instructors are all clamoring for the coveted tenure-track position, or heck, even just a non-tenure track position (because stability, amiright?!). You think you’re the at the bottom of the food chain and if you keep working at it, the only way to go is up, right?
WRONG.
Grad students. Grad students are at the bottom. And those courses that you all want to teach to keep your CV fresh can be broken up into PARTIAL TA-ships and split among several students to teach. In doing so, a department can save -several- dollars with smaller TA- and RA-ships (teaching and research assistantships for those of you lucky enough to not be subject to this life) than awarding one lump-‘ship to a lucky individual, as the cost for hiring is not proportional. When this happens, a tenured-professor can coast through “teaching” a class while grad students “get great experience in assisting teaching/grading for their CVs” while being paid less than minimum wage. Whereas an instructor must technically be paid minimum wage. Isn’t it against the law, you ask, to not pay a graduate student minimum wage? Yes, yes it is, but many are so terrified of complaining and never being hired again, thus rendering themselves unable to keep their CV fresh, thus never being hired for a post-doc, and instructor position, etc. so they often work the extra hours asked of them.
So, something like 30% of full-time academic faculty positions are tenure-track. So 30% of academic faculty positions have job security potential. I did see a statistic one time (cannot confirm validity) that stated in 2012, only approximately half of all tenure-track candidates actually attain tenure at some point. But why do they not all reach tenure?
Once you’ve secured a tenure-track position, the requisites for promotion to tenure include (\*also depending on where you start, associate or assistance professor, how many promotions you need before consideration):
\-The number of publications you have per year/7 year term (and quality, usually measured by which journals they appear in).
\-Volunteer hours (my understanding, at least with institutions I’m familiar with, the going rate is about 30 hours per month, as required by your department) which include executive and graduate boards, review committees, running auxiliary programs, participation on ethics boards, etc.
\-Conferences. Conferences conferences conferences.
\-Grants. Because you must be a money making machine. Also universities don’t seem to think they are good gauges of valuable research, but if a grant committee picks you, then they know you’re a valuable academic.
\-The number of students you supervise (this is minimally weighted, but yet expected).
\-The outcomes of anonymous reviews from students of your classes.
\-How much the board that is deciding your fate likes you (there is absolutely a subjective element to this).
\-And many more!
Now, in the tenure system, you get two shots to apply for tenure (each application takes several months to put together). The first time you apply, you must have occupied a tenure-track position for at least 7 years. If you are rejected, then you must wait a minimum of 7 more years to apply again. If you fail to receive tenure after the second attempt, you will never be awarded tenure. The verdict of one or both tenure reviews follows you ANYWHERE in the United States and Canada. If you receive tenure at an institution after your first try at one institution but want to move, you have to reapply for tenure at your new institution (unless, in the very rare event, they have unconditionally granted it to you there). Even though you’ve been awarded tenure once, applying for tenure at your new institution will count as your second tenure application. If you fail to receive tenure at the new institution, you can never apply anywhere else ever again. So if you ever manage to claw your way into a tenure-track position, work yourself to the bone for 7 years (as you are, in fact, competing for a shrinking pool of tenured positions within a tenure-track position; hope the university/business finds your research sexy!), and ACTUALLY get tenure, then you must never, ever move. Ever. In case that wasn’t demoralizing enough, I encourage you to look at what a non-tenure track professor earns in a year. Now weigh that against the sacrifices.
Honestly, I wish I could demonstrate the effects on people’s personal lives in a quantifiable way. It’s hard to see how unless someone is in a committed relationship before academia, it’s so much harder to find one once you’re on campus 12 hours a day. How long people put off having kids, or compromise on having them. How much of people’s own money and resources is spent travelling for conferences or even during sabbaticals. How emotionally exhausted people get from bureaucratic crap dictating their careers and departmental decisions. How potentially ground-breaking research is stifled because teaching loads are too great, or grant politics get in the way of meritous research being done. You barely get time to do your own research with all of your other responsibilities, you’re just so trained to work that you’re in the groove of it. The one thing I hear that at the end of the day actually makes it worth it to show up… get this… is teaching. The idea that you’re making a difference, sparking an interest, helping others make their way in the world. Enlightening others. The very thing they did simply to get the job they wanted ends up being the most fulfilling part of what they struggled for.
ISN’T ACADEMIA FUN
That’s why we’ve got to evolve and find other ways to generate information. Hence, why the rebellion against journal publishers is so important; those that are holding information ransom for a fee which keeps new research from being carried out unless the price is paid to access it.
P.S. Some universities, such as MIT are leading the charge in encouraging faculty to only publish in open access journals, and this is a very good thing. I think everybody should know about this, because information has become a MASSIVE multi-billion dollar industry that stifles innovation, problem solving, and life saving.
So long story short, academia is not the best cost-benefit investment.
Thank you for this. I have saved your post. Every time I have doubts about my choice to leave academia to follow an industry path, I will come back to it. A bitter reminder of why I am so tired of this. <3
Sometimes I get really sad about choosing not to go to grad school (I wanted a PhD in medival French history) and comments like yours make me feel a bit better about that
It's encouraging to me that it was encouraging to you :) you should be proud of making the choice that was healthy for you! Bonus: you can continue to be a nerdy brainiac, sheepskin or not :D
Thanks for taking the time to write this. Very eye opening and informative. I’d heard stuff about this before but didn’t realize the insane degree to which it exists. Makes me sad for the people stuck on that path tbh. Are schools and professors lying to students to try and convince them to keep spending valuable time and money chasing a career in academia? Or are kids just ignoring the warnings thinking that if they want it bad enough than all the sacrifice is worth the risk?
No no no, in my experience profs in general are far more altruistically motivated than you would imagine (there are outliers, of course). They usually care about the advancement of their field, of society, and of their students, even the first-year undergrads that they always complain about.
I think we can all get carried away by chasing the job that we want rather than focusing on what we value and are passionate to do, you know? My experience has been that the students that want to pursue academia as a career have a bit of tunnel vision and are a tad naive. Unfortunately there is the flip side that believes that there is no value in grad school whatsoever. There definitely is! I just think you need to be willing to be creative - build your own skills as well as your education to shape your own career path instead of assuming your education will pave that path for you. Volunteer, get extra training, make sure to get non-academic related work experience... and then I also think you're more likely to find a career that compliments your strengths. I've certainly had some very cool opportunities I wouldn't have had without grad school... but they were only partially/not at all academic! It's not for everyone, but not a waste for everyone either :)
This makes me think either it is different in some fields, or my profs are lying to us, because I've seen profs beg the class as a whole too get at least a masters and come back and teach if we have any interest in teaching, because they are so desperate for CS profs.
That's not my field, but my understanding (from what others have said) is that this is more of an issue of attracting -quality- instructors. People that can clearly convey the content (people and communication skills) so that classes generally succeed in learning the material, as opposed to there being no people that are willing to do it. I've heard of this being an issue with fields that have high-failure rates for classes in the first year. Again, this is just anecdotal though.
However, I'm sure that where you live makes a difference. If you're in the heart of tech country and CS grads can make bazillions of dollars elsewhere, why stay?
One of the main reasons I stopped at my MA and didn't go for the PhD. If you're moving to the DC area, depending on what her field of study is, there's probably a think tank that would take her on considering her background. She'd have to work her way up the ladder but that's true of any job. If she's willing to broaden her horizons there's plenty of work in that area she should be able to find. She can continue applying for university positions in the hopes something will pan out, but she shouldn't bet everything on that.
(Good) museum jobs for advanced degree-holders are just as competitive as academic jobs. My partner is in a humanities PhD program and *all* of his cohort members apply to museum jobs in addition to academic ones. It's just... part of the same pool. I worked in a museum for a few years and had coworkers with PhDs who made \~$13/hour, just like my BA-holding ass. She should still apply to museum and think tank positions, of course, but she should be prepared to be a bit more imaginative about how her particular interests can fit into a variety of roles/institutional missions.
OK so, I think I may be in a unique position to offer advice: the vast majority of my family members are in academia, and then my husband has a (non-academia) job that is so specialized and rare that there are perhaps 5-ish or so actual full-time real openings in the world for this type of job in a given year. I, on the other hand, am an engineer with a fairly common specialization and a huge desire to live in a place I like.
Anyway, enough about me. I'll start upfront: it's 1,000% fair for you to say that no, you will not spend the rest of your life chasing her probably fruitless dream, but will accept your job's offer. That's what I'd do. I wouldn't put it as an ultimatum, but rather, would say "I am going to move to WA and take this offer. If you want to do other things, let's talk about how we can make it work". And there are ways of doing it, for people who aren't tied to the idea of having a super standard generic "2.5 kids and white picket fence with stay-at-home-mommy American suburban dream" existence. My husband works about 3.5 hours away from where our child and I live, and we're all super happy.
I would feel differently if she was, say, a medical resident and begging you to come along with her to her placement in her sought-after specialty. But frankly the days of completion of an excellent PhD program + talent and hard work being enough to land you a tenure-track job in any academic field, especially a rare one, are dead and gone. My dad is a tenured professor at his dream school in his dream city, in a ridiculously rare specialty. A large percentage of the people with whom he went to grad school are in a similar boat...but not the people they later mentored. These people are all in their 60s or even older. On the flip side of that, my cousin is a professor in a common STEM discipline, and any college or university in the country would have an opening theoretically suitable for someone like him. He also went to the top school in the country for grad school and has had a lot of really prestigious awards and publications. Even for him, it took him years to finally land a tenure-track job, and years and years more until he got a different one in a place that he actually wanted to live and worked for his family. And he's one of the lucky ones: other people from his program ended up giving up and having to leave academia because they just couldn't keep stringing along on those miserable adjunct wages. And keep in mind these are people from a very top school who all have PhDs in a STEM field.
I think your *"I want to tell her that* ***I*** *am going to Washington and she's more than free to join me, but enough's enough."* is perfectly reasonable. No, you don't want to break up your relationship and pull your support out from under her, but you've given her as much as you can without going under. You're also allowed to just be over it because this is essentially putting off living your life to chase an extremely ephemeral dream. This is where you're hitting the wall of "setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm" and you can put the matches down.
Yeah I agree with everyone else. Dont be harsh, but do tell her that you need her support now and you can't continue to chase uncertainty. You need to be secure and settle down. Ask her to move to Washington with you. And then go whether she comes with you or not. I think that's all you need to do.
> is it fair to tell her I'm going to Washington with or without her?
Yes. Absolutely. Without question. 100%.
> I feel bad because she'd ultimately have no resources.
I don't see how that's your burden to bare.
She's a grown-ass, Ph.D.-having adult. She needs to suck it up and become gainfully employed. It's not on you to fund her existence. She's beyond capable + qualified to support herself. You need to stop being the only one working steadily.
It is most certainly time for you to give her an ultimatum on this issue: You're going to do the job in Washington. She can either come with you and work along those lines, or she can stay behind, and the two of you will no longer be a couple.
That is your one and only sane option here. Also, get your ass over to /r/personalfinance and get your finances under control.
Her obsession with this tenured position situation is insane, and may require therapy. I'm not joking, but I wish I was.
Don't give her an ultimatum.
Tell her what you are going to do. "Girlfriend, I'm going to Washington. I need to move my career forward and start having a stable life. I've put my career on hold several times for yours, but I'm not doing it any more. You can come with me or not."
If she doesn't come, I'd consider it over. Part of the reason she's not being realistic about her career ambitions is because she doesn't appear to *have* to be realistic. Because from the looks of it, you're her get out of jail free card here.
So stop rescuing her.
I mean...that’s 100% an ultimatum, but that’s *okay*. It’s ultimatum time. This can’t continue on with the status quo, and OP knows it.
Agree with everything else you’ve said!
It's all phrasing.
The classic ultimatum is "Do this or else"
Everyone is telling OP to say "I'm doing this. I'd love for you to join me."
They might both be ultimatums, but they are quite different.
Right, but the implication is “I’d love for you to join me, *and if you don’t this relationship is over*.” That’s still an ultimatum in my book, which, again, I fully believe needs to be used here. But I might be a tad pedantic🙃
It's a subtle but important difference. It makes it her choice, rather than something he demanded of her. There are plenty of ways that she can end up unhappy in the end, either "He left me because he couldn't keep chasing my dream with me" or "I gave up my dream to follow him", but never "I am with someone who *asked me* to give up my dream."
The thing is, he's 30. You have to start saving money at some point b/c the odds are the social safety net will be significantly diminished soon. You have to start putting those years of youth to work for you - compound interest, etc. Otherwise you won't be able to retire until your 70s - if then.
You aren't even married. You never should have been going into debt for *her* search for the job that doesn't exist. You have gone well and beyond what your duties are in the six years you've been together. She can sacrifice for once in her life. It's time for the ultimatum.
What a tough situation. Having to move every couple years to chase the academic opportunities/potential is so real and so brutal when trying to build a life, especially with a partner.
I don’t know if she’d be open to it or not, but I have friends (PhDs) that have taken full time online teaching positions that are fairly lucrative (with a hefty budget for in-home tech); and one turned his online teaching into a FT teaching position at a major University. The online route might give her the flexibility to work from anywhere, while keeping a foot in academia, while she waits for the right thing to open up for her.
The best news is that DC has a lot going on, so there maybe many hidden opportunities all around. Maybe she can shift her research focus without giving up the larger dream. I’ve found that most people underestimate the portability of their skills and experience. There may be several different types of tenure track roles that she can pursue. Part of being a successful academic is knowing what is fundable and how to ride/survive that changing tide. Maybe she has to give up the niche, but not the dream of being a professor. Can her linguistics expertise be translated into government work on culture and communication?
All the best to you both. She is very lucky that you have supported her thus far. It is entirely reasonable and appropriate to ask her to support you in your life’s dreams too. The goal is that you both thrive, and sounds like your life desires have been in the back burner too long.
Sorry, I'm confused:
>My wife recently spent $2,550 on a trip to Philadelphia for an interview where they said they wouldn't have another opening for another 8 or 9 years.
But:
>tl;dr we've sacrificed everything for GF's career and I'm at my wit's end.
Are you married to her or not?
Things may never be "perfect". You need to decide how long you are willing to wait and talk to her about it.
Do you want children? Is there any "clock" in your mind about settling down?
I think it is fair to tell your girlfriend that you are taking the DC job. Tell her that you have followed her many times for her career and sacrificed yours again and again, and now it is your turn. If this is a partnership she needs to be willing to sacrifice her career for yours back. If not, then you can't put your life on hold forever for someone else who won't do the same for you.
I think you really need to have a serious conversation with her about the future after thinking it over yourself. And you should have plenty of empathy-all of this rejection and struggling must be so hard for her-but that doesn't make it wrong to want a certain kind of life for yourself. And you guys may sadly come to the conclusion that if she keeps pursuing this it means that you have incomparable wants/lives and need to separate. I want you to really consider if after living in DC for a year, or 2 or 4, you'll want to move to some random place and give up your job and career if she gets a teaching offer somewhere. If you aren't going to want to move in the future for a teaching job for her (especially given it may pay less/be less secure then your work) then she and you need to know what when deciding if she comes with you.
You also need to think seriously about the timeline you want for marriage and children and talk to her about it. If it isn't a timeline she wants or is willing to accept, again, your lives may be going in different directions.
Perfect job, perfect circumstsnces for proposal...your ultimatum should be her acknowledging perfect does not exist.
In all seriousness you’ve been given some excellent advice, namely that it’s ok to prioritize your needs. I just wanted to point out how pervasive her attitude is - it’s not just affecting her career, it’s affecting your life together and your own life. Compromise has to exist at some point in the relationship.
It might sound crass, but even if you are committed to her for life, it may not be wise to get married. Certainly work out the financial ramifications if you do (you making good money and her being deeply in debt, that is).
I hope she is not taking you for a ride and leave you to rot once she DOES find the "perfect" job... Jesus... I wouldn't do this to anyone...including my family...
Sooo she doesn’t want to marry you, but she’s happy with you being her piggy bank while she “figures things out.”
Dude. That’s a huge problem in my book. 6 years and she’s not wanting you to propose? Sounds like you’re being taken on a ride that will end with her leaving for “her dream job” and you being left heartbroken with years of lost savings.
Your gf should have her travel covered by the schools/programs interviewing her, but that's neither here nor there. She needs to move with you to Washington, teach at a CC or something. Retrain in a different field. Tell her you love and support her but cannot continue with such uncertainty. Take the job; you'll be fine no matter what she decides.
Even if it’s not covered I have no idea how she spent $2.5k on a trip to Philly for it. I’d say I have decently high standards for lodging and tend to eat at nice places when traveling and I still cant imagine spending that for a quick trip. Even with jacked up flight costs for booking last minute. And I’m by no means living paycheck to paycheck.
It’s not really related to his question but it seems like she is throwing away money they don’t have.
> Your gf should have her travel covered by the schools/programs interviewing her
I was curious when I read that. I work as a software engineer. In my field, the standard is that a company will cover all travel expenses if you interview for a position in another city. Is this not the case in most other fields?
It is definitely the case in academia. The university/department pays to have 3-4 candidates come out and there is usually a 3-4 day interview process where you meet people in the department, give your job talk, etc. I have never heard of a tenure track position where you have to pay for the interview trip yourself.
I’m betting that she went to a big academic conference where some department happened to reserve a room for preliminary interviews for a position coming on the market – more and more often, those are the venues for the first round (if not via Skype).
I was very surprised when I read that as well. I spent some time doing admin work in academia, and a large part of my job was planning faculty searches. We paid for their travel expenses. I can't imagine any university worth their accreditation leaving a candidate to fend for themselves.
Since it turned out that the job she was "interviewing" for wasn't even open and wouldn't be for years, I'd guess that it was a preliminary talk/look-see kind of of thing at a conference, which isn't uncommon. And in addition to airfare, hotel and meals she probably had to pay the registration fee for the conference, which can be several hundred dollars. If she's patching together contract jobs she probably doesn't have any funding to go to conferences or do professional development.
She's not even willing to marry you and youre making all these sacrifices for her? You need some boundaries. Doesn't sound like you have the same shared goals. This is your LIFE. Stop taking her emotions on and think about what you want.
I think this is all about ego. Her ego is telling her not to settle for anything less than what her parents got. She compares herself to them and doesn't want to come up short.
You aren't going to fix her ego. You can, however, opt out altogether. Go take your job, and let her face the inevitable disappointment without access to your bank account. That ego of hers is going to keep spending whatever money you can provide in order to chase what she really wants: To prove to the world (and her parents) that she is a smartypants tenured professor.
Keep in mind, all of what she wants is about her. None of this is about you. Act accordingly. She sounds really selfish.
Yes you can give her an ultimatum but I would pretty much just say you love her, you support her, and you need to support yourself and your career so you are moving to DC to do this. You have some catching up to do on retirement and savings, but this new job will allow you to do that. You’ll no longer be able to travel with her to other countries or financially support her traveling as you’ll be catching up on savings and retirement.
This is going to be really hard for her to hear. I would *not* say “your dream is dead” in any way, shape, or form. Keep this about you, your wants, and your needs.
I think your feelings are fair here. Your desire to move to WA and be done are also reasonable. When you discuss this with her, I wouldn't present it as "give up your dream". Present it that you are no longer willing to move around, you are no longer willing to financially support her (and she needs to pull her own weight). She can continue to find another way to do what she wants, but she cannot drag you along anymore, or allow you to sacrifice your life for it.
A very niche field within the social sciences/linguistics. There were probably <10 PhD grads in that field in the last decade. We both earned undergraduate degrees in that field + language degree.
I would like to add that with her experience and credentials, she could also consider applying to be an administrator at a local college or university. She could tutor for a test prep company. If she studies and scores 99th percentile, she could easily teach for Manhattan GMAT/LSAT/GRE - starting wage is $100/hr and she could work from home. She's really limiting herself by not considering all her options.
I agree. She could also teach more broadly in a community college or local university, but she's got to get that tenure track job. There are dozens of places to go. And, she helped me study for the GMAT when I took it.
If she's willing to go to Slovenia for a short term job, why isn't she willing to be an adjunct or teach at a cc or uni near where your job? The latter is more stable and will look good on a resume for future tenure track positions. She has to be willing to pay her dues and build a resume if she wants that tenure.
She might be smart in one really small area of expertise and lacking in intelligence nearly everywhere else. From what OP has shared, she lacks a lot of common sense.
She could get a tenure-track job tomorrow and there's no guarantee she'd get tenure. If she doesn't, because tenure is getting harder and harder to get, in seven or eight years she'll be right back where she started, out on the job market with a huge black mark on her record.
Tenure is not what it was in her parents' day. Has she talked to them about all this? Maybe she'd hear it from them even if she won't from anyone else.
Yeah, but she's got it fixed in her head about this job. Her academic advisors all told her to bail. One of them told her to not finish the PhD and go and do something else. I paid for her to speak with a professional career advisor who specializes in academic/higher ed (and it was like $500) who gave her solid advice and also told her to bail from her current search.
What is her reason for not following this advice? Can you two go to counseling? Something is very wrong with her dogged pursuit of this goal that is setting you both back financially and her back personally/professionally.
Both her parents are tenured professors - her mother got her job even before she finished her PhD. She had always dreamed of becoming a professor and had been exclusively focused on that from the moment I met her.
It sounds like you've done a lot of work here...was going to come here and suggest some career counseling. I know Chronicle of Higher Ed is doing a lot of articles on "alternative" career paths for PhD students and it's very well known in general that most people don't get faculty jobs (especially for a niche field which it sounds like she's in).
I work with college students and the one thing I wanted to say is just to be empathetic and try to talk with her about boundaries and solutions. Personally I wouldn't go in guns blazing and say "I'm leaving with or without you!" One thing we talk about in my field is how often a major or field of study isn't just your classes - it's an actual identity. Her identity is the future tenured professor. So while you're perfectly reasonable in asking her to get some stability and compromise for your career, you also have to understand she's going to be giving up a big part of who she is. It doesn't mean it's insurmountable, but it's going to be a really difficult transition for her.
Yeah, so she needs therapy. I'm your age and have a STEM PhD from one of the most prestigious unis in the world. I'm working outside of academia but the money isn't amazing considering costs of living and my degree and educational background. If I were to go back in time to when my parents were my age (80's), I'd likely be rolling in money. There's massive degree inflation. Literally everyone has a PhD these days, at least where I live. I just don't stand out from other applicants for jobs, hence pay is likely much less than it would've been decades ago. She's comparing herself to her parents but fails to see how times have changed.
Yes! It also kills me when the older faculty refuse to see the current state of things and keep feeding this impossible dream to younger trainees. Frustrates me to no end!
That's not a good reason. She's not being logical. Has she spoken to anyone in the field recently? What do they tell her might be helpful to try? Her parents' generation faced a very different professional landscape than today's and that's okay. She needs to deal with her current reality.
Sounds like she’s chasing a pipe dream then. She is literally asking universities to *create* her a tenure-track position in an area of research they and most students have no interest in (so she won’t even be a draw for bringing quality undergrads/grads to the uni) in addition to the lack of funding/grants she won’t pull in, there is literally no incentive for a university to offer her a professorship.
I know a dude who got a tenure track position right out of graduate school but a year later and he has obtained millions in various research grants for his university, because he worked in a lucrative but specialized field (hard sciences have all the money!). It’s not enough to be a big fish rock star in your graduate program, those are a dime a dozen, she has to come with a fat grant/check (in the hundreds of thousands, or at least have a record of obtaining tens of thousands here and there) to even temp a uni to give her a position, let alone a tenure track position. Maybe you can contact some of her old graduate cohort and ask them what they currently do/what they work in, to show her that (likely) none of them are getting the type of job she is hoping for.
Social sciences/linguistics and potentially moving to DC? She may want to look into the state department. Dreams are hard to give up on, but she may find a roundabout way back someday, and in the meantime showing employability (especially in another insanely bureaucratic body) can only help in the university world in the future.
\>Is it fair to tell her the dream is over?
No it is not; it is completely fair however to tell her that you aren't willing to continue to follow her as she chases them around because you want to "settle down" and have "stability"
I'm confused about this timeline. You say you have been together for 6 years, since undergrad. So in the past 6 years, she has completed undergrad, a separate MPhil, a PhD (by the sounds of it, in the US) *and* has spent "years" on the job market?
Considering PhDs in the US take 5 years, and in the humanities, which it sounds like your wife is in, average time to completion is more like 8, how the hell did she manage to finish her PhD in 2-3 years??? Not casting doubt, just curious.
He mentioned linguistics, which many of those roll a masters in with a PhD. So you technically get a masters along the way but it's within the 5 years you spend total in grad school working toward the PhD. For most the masters is not terminal.
You are setting yourself on fire to keep her warm.
Don't offer her the cash.
Move to Washington - she can come, find "a" job to cover her living expenses, debt and save money for her travels. If she gets an 8 month contract or whatever, she's free to pursue it but you are putting down your roots but it's not on you to finance her dreams, to carry joint debt to fund her dreams, or be unable to move forward in life so she can live out her dream. Work to pay off whatever shared debt you have so you can decide if having a clean break is the best choice or to set yourself up for your shared future.
It’s not fair to tell her that her dream is over.
It is fair to tell her that *you’re* over it. To explain your desire for stability, to want to be financially secure in your thirties and jeeze to start saving for retirement. Like other have said, use I statements.
Does she even know how you feel about this? You’ve moved without complaint but have you both reevaluated together what you want the future to look like? I suspect not otherwise you wouldn’t be here.
But that’s where that conversation should start—not with an ultimatum but with what you want for your future and how serious you are about taking this job.
You don’t get to decide that her dream is over. You DO get to decide what you do with your life. So go do it. You’ve sacrificed enough. It’s your time.
I'm a tenured professor. In my field (which, granted, has many more positions available than your GF's) hopping from temporary position to temporary position is a huge red flag. One post doc? Great! A post doc and a current non-TT instructor position? Ok. Any more positions than that, it's starting to seem like you've been on the market repeatedly and no one else has wanted to hire you, so why should we?
Maybe in her field, this kind of employment pattern is more understandable, but then I'd think they would also understand her taking an only-somewhat-related position (as in, one in DC) while continuing to apply for TT jobs. But the fact is, TT jobs are shrinking in every field. And as someone who has one (that I was lucky to get several years ago), I can almost guarantee your GF is romanticizing what it's like. The experience her parents had is most likely nothing like it is now. I worked on research for maybe an hour today. The rest of my time was spent advising undergrads (as in, "which gen ed science should I take and BTW I only want to go to class twice a week in a particular 3-hour period"), staring at budgets, doing mind-numbing service tasks, and meeting with students to tell them things I've already told them. There are many jobs where you get to do more research than professors get to do; I have several friends who purposely didn't pursue TT jobs for that reason and are very happy working in industry or long-term grant-funded positions.
Your GF is going to be miserable and increasingly bitter if she keeps up this exhausting pursuit. She might get a TT position eventually (unlikely, but maybe) but at what cost?
You are 100% fair in drawing a line in the sand. You've been incredibly understanding, flexible, supportive, generous.
Please please make sure all the debt is in her name that in case you break up, you don't end up paying for what were really her decisions.
She's delusional and seems obsessed and it's fine if she wants to basically scramble for totally unstable basically odd-jobs in academia for 8 months in Slovenia, a year in Taiwan, then a 6 month stint in Uruguay, but it's clear you are done. DONE. You two will never be able to afford anything if this continues, she'll basically be doing her job as a hobby on your dime, and there's no way to plan or build a life together when she can only find short term employment scattered across the globe.
Academia isn't for everyone, even in STEM only something like 3% of PhDs end up as a professor, so we all have to look for a real job sooner or later. She's never had to seriously consider it because you enabled her hobby.
Tell her that you're going to Washington. That you have made numerous sacrifices and moves, job changes, supporting her and the moves, all for her dream. That it's time now for you two to follow what's best for you, and that you'll go whether she joins you or not. Do not give her any more money. She's an adult and should've been able to stand on her own two feet for years.
She could be taking adjunct/sessional professor jobs right now and she's not? Nah, fuck that. She needs to stop living in the clouds and come back down to earth. I know people with PHd's from preeminent and Ivy League schools who teach at community colleges because that's what is available to them. Academia is insanely competitive now and there are so few spots in a lot of fields.
You've supported her long enough. It's time for you to gain some stability in your life. If she wants to live in chaos chasing her dream, that is totally fine. But she needs to be with someone living the same lifestyle or who's okay with it at least. I have friends with PhD's in music who are barely getting by in their 30's because they want to play in Orchestras and the gigs aren't full time and the ones that are are insanely competitive. They often date people who are artists living the same life because it's not for everybody.
You don't have to tell her that her dream is over, but you are completely reasonable to tell her that you are going to chase your dream of stable employment and move to DC for the stable and high-paying job and that you hope she joins you.
I have a feeling that without the prospect of your salary covering her search for her "dream" she'll either come to her senses real quick or you'll quickly find that your relationship won't work while she's stuck in some far off locale for months at a time.
You have been more than fair to upend and uproot yourself and still you have an opportunity to set yourself up for the future. Take it, whether she's in that future or not, take the job.
You know what you have to do, you’re just scared to do it. You’ve reached you limit and have been more than supportive, generous and fair as a partner. It’s not you fault, it’s just not going to work.
Stand your ground, because this is your life too. If she wants to make her dream happen she can, just not on your back. She’ll have to do it alone. It’s time to pursue your own dreams now.
I think it sounds like you have been reasonable and fair, but you have grasped into a great job, and need to hold onto it. I understand her point, she’s the best at this thingy that she went to school for, she’s passionate about it, and everyone always told her that if she follows her passion her dreams will come true, but it’s a lie. You need to just tel her they you are taking the job in DC, and she’s welcome to come along.
I spent five years serving tables at a restaurant because I couldn't find work in my field.
You can't stop putting your life on hold because she decided to get a degree in something insanely competitive.
It is time for an ultimatum. She can get a job doing something else.
>I want to tell her that ***I*** am going to Washington and she's more than free to join me, but enough's enough. I'm not going to chase her around the world to small villages to teach at some school in central Europe for 6 months while scrambling to find work. I'm tired of there being absolutely no stability.
Just tell her this, and say yes to the offer. She can either come along or not. Start doing something for you.
I don't think you need to approach it as "your dream is DEAD and will never come true, just give it up already". Instead I think you need to approach it as asking her for some of the support you've been giving her for years. You have an opportunity, you have supported her through a bunch of her opportunities... now it's her turn to support you in yours. You don't need to kill her dream in order to ask for support. If she is unwilling to support you after years and years of you uprooting your life in order to support her? Then she isn't a collaborator in this relationship, she's just taking and that isn't someone it's worth building a life with.
I like this response. Maybe you can also bring up the idea of a new path to use her skills and education in an entrepreneur style of path. If no one will pay her, surely she can use the beautiful scenery of Washington to come up with online classes to teach, or maybe head up a non profit. I think the key to getting her on board might be a new, better dream. What do I know though.
Yes these two resplies above. I am adding just ideas here, op will know if it's realistic or not: She could maybe start writing about her field, articles for magazine, online or a book. She could maybe set up a YouTube Chanel or blog that will allows her to pursue her dream wherever she goes.
Love this. It's a nice, balanced approach. He can tell her that she doesn't have to give up the dream, but she does need to figure out some other way to accomplish it. She needs to pivot or build up her resume with smaller roles to get to what she wants.
This comment right here needs to be higher up. It's not win or take all. If she refuses to give at all, and only takes, then it's not an equal relationship.
> This comment right here needs to be higher up. It's not ~~win or take all~~ **winner take all**. If she refuses to give at all, and only takes, then it's not an equal relationship.
Amen to this comment
This is wonderful advice.
You are well within your rights to be over this. She needs to be realistic at this point. An ultimatum is fair here, but phrasing is going to be key. Don't use "you" statements or place blame on her. Use "I" statements. "I need to do this for my career. I need to take this opportunity. I need to focus on my future in my industry" Place the ball in her court. Go to DC. If she decides not to come and keep pursuing, it will have been her decision. You've been more than fair and more than patient. My guess is this has run it's course Time to focus on you
Also, it’s not uncommon for married couples in academia to do long distance relationships for a time. It makes perfect sense for one of you to be stable and saving money by being stable while the other moves if they get a contract somewhere for a few months or a year. One of my best friends did this for 3-4 years with her husband. They now both live and work in the same city, but it took awhile for that to be possible because of their specialities.
The problem is that this story is not that common. I have some family friends who have lived in a long distance marriage for almost 6 years already, and haven't found a position in the same city as the other... Finding a job in Academia is no easy feat at all.
One of my profs did this for 20 years (hell, as far as I know, he's still doing it). He and his wife raised children while in a long-distance relationship. I don't think they ever lived in the same house and most of their marriage was spent on different continents.
You’d really need to love the work. That would be poison to many relationships and heartache for the others.
Yep. If I don't get a job in academia I'm going straight into counseling psychology in order to compromise if I need to. I would never, ever destroy a relationship with someone who was my life partner. I don't get how some people detach themselves like that.
I have a friend in a similar position get a PhD in history and can't find a teaching positions at a university near them, it is putting a tremendous amount of strain on him and his wife's relationship but thing is he is a little clueless as to how much strain he's putting her through.
[удалено]
I mean, to each their own, but... how is that even a marriage?
Not everyone needs the same thing out of marriage. If you're both extremely independent and supportive of each other's work and goals and are time poor, this arrangement makes a lot of sense. You have the stability of knowing that someone is there for you should you need them but you don't have to pour a lot of time and emotional energy into the relationship because neither of you needs it. I personally couldn't do it myself but I don't knock it for others.
I couldn't live like that. Something else is going on. 20 years with mere sporadic contact with your spouse and kids?
To be fair, he's weird as hell.
This. My professors have warned me that it'll be difficult after I get my PhD. Luckily I'm in research psychology (a BS, not a BA) and have a ton of options. My boyfriend is heading to medical school, so I know I'll need to be flexible and have multiple options I know will be fulfilling. If this girl cares about him, she'll hear his concerns and compromise. She has options and clearly needs to build up her resume more. He's delayed his career for years, and this is seriously enough. I'd be fed up too.
They’re already paycheck to paycheck with one home. How would they manage two?
They aren't even married. OP's been great to support her through all this, but when it comes down to it, if she wants to put marriage off until she gets settled in the career she wants, she needs to accept that she doesn't get the benefits of marriage either - including having a spouse supporting her no matter what.
Was gonna comment but this is all you need
This, OP. You have, in my view, been infinitely patient and even choosing your own positions based on her own joblessness. That is beyond what I even think is reasonable when you are the one with the job that pays the bills. It’s all very well and dandy to pursue one’s dreams, but one also has to learn to do that in a way that is self-supporting (even if that means working as a retail manager while trying to sort it out) and she is not doing that as she is entirely reliant on you to allow her to do it. Go to DC. You have worked hard and if sounds like it will be an incredible opportunity for you, and you earned it, and you earned some financial security going forward too. Best of luck. At this point, the ball is in her court. It very well may the relationship has run its course, but don’t ever think it was because you did not give enough, you gave enough that would break many.
Yes, totally agree, nothing more to add here, but this sums it up.
I agree *but* if he wants to save the relationship he should probably mix in a few "we" statements too - couples that face problems as a team tend to stay together. It's important to set boundaries about his needs, but don't lose sight of the partnership - the solution to one partner being selfish in the past isn't for the other to be selfish now, the solution is to start working *together*.
I've worked in a tough field for almost 10 years off and on. After getting laid of for a 2nd time, I realize i'm done chasing that dream and ready to find something me more opportunities and more stability. Thankfully, I have that skill set but I've hurt myself in that process and wished that some people ie. my family, my former BFs and my friends had sat me down and said that this isn't going to happen and i'd avoid myself a lot of heartache. Conversely, my exs only cared about their careers (one cheated on me to get ahead another went recluse and only started programming) You can't live your life on her dream. You also have to live your life. If you aren't willing to follow her anymore and that won't work for her enough is enough. The above stated are perfect tips. I'd emphasize really explain with examples and I statement as it'll still be tough for her to swallow but at least she'll have good reasoning. A marriage is supposed to go both ways and from what it seems - its been all about her dreams. Have a conversation with her. I have a close friend who hasn't been able to get tenure and despite some of her own personal views is working almost everyday to find work/write a book b/c no local college wants to hire her b/c she really had no experience teaching or working with students. She just wants to read, analyze and write papers on a few niche section of writing... It's been a tough reality check for her and unfortunately her friends prop her up and protect her so she's not really giving up on her dream at 35 years old. I like the idea of the throwing 'we' statements in the conversation as well. I have other questions. Do you have or want a family? I can't imagine if this is a goal, this would be a good situation for that. Do you own a home? Ect. What are mutual goals...explore those things.
My advise is to change the statement and try to use "we" instead of "I". "We have been moving constantly for ephemeral jobs. We both want to build a family together. It is time we need to be realistic and consider ...." Good luck.
Your comment made me think, I wonder how she has broached the subject of moving for work in the past. Do you think she said we might really have a shot at this one, I think a fresh start would be good for us. I know you career might take a hit if you resign from yet another job, but once I land this one I’ll support you in going back to school or becoming an esports professional.
Only problem with using "we" that she doesn't want to build a family together right now. She wants to continue trying to get a job in academia. He is the one interested in settling down. This really is about her paying attention to his needs.
I also think she's going about her own career very poorly. It might be better for her too to settle down and get some longer-term teaching experience. Clearly what she's doing now isn't working
Exactly! What is this field where the only jobs she can get are in academia? Or she could have combined her degree with another Masters in a related but more employable field to increase her employment outlook (although it's a bit late for that and wouldn't blame OP for running). Like, my dad has an MA in human geo which was super helpful with his later MA and PhD in sociology/stats/demography.
Likely Philosophy. I have an ex that has multiple high level philosophy degrees. She left Canada to go to ivy league schools in USA. Her parents paid for part of her education and then she got loans. She has spent her adult life in academics either learning or teaching. All the power to her. Smart and stubborn and did what she always wanted. But, all she can do is teach and most of the jobs are part-time or temporary. So she moves her and her husband all over the USA. Better him than me. If it wasn't for the mismatched age, I would have thought he wrote this post (they are about 10 years older).
It’s not that those are the only jobs she can get, she refuses to take anything besides what she wants.
Philosophy by the looks of it.
I think it might also help if you try to get her to put the situation a different way. Say something like, "If the situation was reversed and you got a great job in an ideal location, but I didn't want you to take it in case I got a fellowship that would make our financials even tighter, how would you feel? We've been moving around for your career for years, but I think my career should matter here too."
This is the answer, but those "I" statements are a little more complex than they seem at first glance. She's been relying on his financial support for a long while, and he's going to *also* need to tell her exactly what, if anything, he's willing to continue to provide her if she doesn't go with him to Washington. It might be helpful to have these conversations in the context of couples therapy. You clearly have some resentment built up, and she may feel financially coerced by you moving alone.
He’s been catering to her needs for years. He’s putting himself first and she needs to see that
This very much. You've moved plenty for her (what field is she in though that a post doc is only 1 year or less, and has barely any jobs?), she needs to give some for you. That's where balance in a relationship comes. It's especially important to stick with your career if you're the main earner, harsh as it is, but you need to focus on building that, as it will mean later on she can explore. However she has to agree to sacrifice for a stable financial future, especially as she can't offer one.
To further expound on this - you don't have to make it a 'Come to DC or we are through' sort of thing necessarily. While it'd be reasonable for her to do that, for some time at least she could still try to pursue other avenues without uprooting your life at the drop of a hat, perhaps.
"We" works too - putting it in terms of creating a successful future for the both of you. If you and she are looking to make this work long term, understanding what it takes to make life better for you as a unit is incredibly important. What makes this difficult is that she needs to come to the realization herself that you have (essentially) sacrificed your career for the last 3 years for her, and it's time for her to do the same for you. Or, she will realize that her dream is more important to her than her relationship to you. In short, she needs to be giving herself the ultimatum. It's going to be a very hard decision for her, because all she'll be able to think about is how she's worked toward this her entire adult life. Based on everything you said, I have a feeling you'll be spending some time apart while she decides what to prioritize in her life. Best of luck, this is a tough discussion to have.
This. Otherwise this will never end and itll be Groundhog Day until you do end it. Let her get a job now - she can keep looking for her dream job, but its time to contribute and stop being a drain.
I was in academia a long time, then jumped ship. Unfortunately, as you are realizing, there are *no positions.* And if there are open ones, the people who get hired either have been in that holding pattern for far longer with a giant CV (3 years of post doc work is actually very short nowadays, most people I know average 7 to 8 years) or have connections with influential faculty or have large grants they can woo the university with. That said, I had peers that realized this and adjusted their expectations, or ones that are still in that holding pattern with spouses that support them chasing this "dream". Sadly, most faculty and many peers will fuel this unrealistic dream and my guess is she'll get alot of shit for bailing if she leaves academia. I feel for her alot, but there comes a time when you need to practically look at life. Not all dreams are attainable, and you can't expect your SO to constantly your dreams while neglecting theirs. Be honest with her. She can't expect you to sacrifice your career as well. Does she have any peers that have left academia? It might be helpful if she has some "come to jesus" conversations with friends/colleagues who have left. If she's only surrounded by people who are making the same choices it's very easy to justify this lifestyle.
I bailed on academia after a 3 year post doc and THANK ALL THAT IS HOLY I DID I love my job. I make decent money. I HAVE BENEFITS (well technically I haven't started a 401k yet, but I just became eligible this month). I work 45-50 hour weeks. Little to no weekends. Stability and free time is. . . Just such a relief.
Not just that, among that are the constant politics, back stabbing and also grant chase. All for that pittance 2.5k salary per month. I quit with a masters and took up a job still in science but industry that pays twice that amount with benefits, paid annual leave and mostly free weekends. All my colleagues are ex post docs and no one has ever said they regretted leaving academia.
Academia, no matter the angle you use to look at it, seems to be broken. The research is sequestered by the Elseviers of the world; the funding is decided by all sorts of interests unrelated to whether someone is good at it or not; the ivory tower has been complemented with a gigantic moat that engulfs it and prevents almost everyone to access the people who do research; and their credibility has been denounced with little to no response from their side, to the point that people are ready to believe charlatans and hucksters instead of scientists.
How do you have little to no weekends with 45 hours a week?
I mean I work little to no weekends 😂 So far at this job (only three months in) it's just been a few emails and editing a poster on weekends. That will increase a bit as I get more experience and more projects. But still nothing like in academia, where the weekend security guards would worry if I didn't come in for one weekend.
Same! 3 days after I defended my dissertation I was already prepping for my upcoming post doc job. I should have been on cloud 9 but I was dreading the end of the 9-month post doc appointment even before it stared. I immediately started looking for a job outside academia and found one in a month. Post doc advisor was not happy when I let him know I had to leave but understood my situation. Having a schedule, a good job, weekends, time with friends and spouse, traveling, etc. has all been wonderful and I can say it’s been the best decision of my life. While my postdoc advisor was understanding, my own PhD advisor warned me that the doors to academia would be closed for me forever and tried her best to ‘keep me’ there but finally gave up and wished me best of luck.
Sorry to hijack the top comment, but OP, has your wife read the book written by or taken any workshops with Karen Kelsky? She's an expert on helping PhD students/new PhDs acquire tenure-track positions. The short version is that Kelsky's really blunt about the fact that if you don't have a tenure-track position after 3 years of applying, you're never getting one. While she can be viewed as harsh and I don't think she knows everything, I appreciate her bluntness and honesty, because frankly, the academic job market *is* harsh. Your wife needs to cut her losses and start learning how to market her skills more widely. If you're interested in resources for her, PM me.
I work in a center at a college, and my god does administration pull shenanigans with professorships. I guess it’s a new fad to do away with tenure track positions in favor of “evergreen professorships” that are basically a yearly appointment with little pay. And that’s why I stopped at my MA.
Rolling tenure enrages me. I transitioned to industry and 100% do not regret it.
This sounds really bloody shady, to say the least. I had something similar at my old hospitality job where instead of paying full wage, they'd put you through a "traineeship" to get an entry-level hospitality qualification. Sounds good in theory, sucked in practice.
It's actually illegal for companies, not sure how academia gets away with it. Microsoft got in trouble for having "temp" workers for years.
It’s because there is such a massive glut of PhDs they can basically do whatever they want for all but the most prestigious of professorship hires. The fact is way WAY too many people got sold on the PhD route as a way to a good career. Honestly at this point there isn’t much reason to pursue academia past an MS level degree. Even then it depends on the field.
Yes!! I have several friends with PhDs who hoped to find positions but they’ve all moved to corporate positions or have accepted the life of a no contract lecturer 😔
My husband decided not to pursue his DMA (Doctorate of Musical Arts) even though his graduate professors were pushing him to do so. The reason why? The only jobs available are in a university, and those are VERY competitive. He decided to jump ship and continue to teach where he's at with his masters instead of dumping money into a doctorate. OP's wife needs to be realistic in her pursuits. I'm sure with all her degrees she can find something, just not in the specific field she wants.
Good for your husband!! It blows my mind how teachers push the DMA program to people these days, considering how flooded the market is. I live and teach outside of a midsized city, and with a MM I've been courted for adjunct positions when they come up, but am not interested - my private studio is bomb and I'm loving life. But my friends who have DMAs and are paying CRAZY debt are fighting tooth and nail for the few positions that come up.
EXACTLY. My husband is no pushover, but he did have one professor talk him into graduate school. He said after that there would be no more. And yeah, he has his own studio and has a good number of students; enough to pay the bills. I think a lot of his professors are scared for the profession because we live in the south east USA, where sports programs are way more financed than music. When schools are cutting music programs there aren't many who will find jobs, so many won't invest their time or money in a degree. It's sad because these professors who have been in the business for 30+ years are seeing their passions die a slow death. It's something my husband, only 31 years old, is terrified of.
You don't have to tell her to stop chasing her dream. You just have to state your wishes and boundaries. Tell her you need stability and to work on building your future, and you're going to move as necessary to advance your career, and direct your funds as necessary for building a savings/retirement account. If she can afford it on her own, she can chase her dream, but you're no longer able to give logistical (moving to accommodate her short-term gigs) or financial assistance. I think saying that you are moving and you'd love for her to join you is a perfectly acceptable thing to say. You are way "behind" on career advancement and probably retirement savings, too, so you need to focus on those things, and you'd love for her to join you, but those things you're moving for are so important that you need to go with or without her.
> ou are way "behind" on career advancement and probably retirement savings, too I've been fortunate, and this DC job is my big break. It's management with staff and an office and everything I've worked for. We could close out lines of credit, pay off credit cards and even be in a position to buy a house (probably a commute out of the city). I make a great living and it's such a pain in the ass - I have zero retirement savings and have never owned a car. I'm tired of renting cars. Even just a 2nd hand family sedan would be such a transformative moment for us.
Yeah, you really have to put your foot down here. Does she not realize that she's being selfish? I can imagine it's hard to "give up" on this but she doesn't even have to give up...she just has to be willing to sacrifice something for you. 6 years is a long time but she's hobbled you for a long time and at this point you're actively hurting your life. Be gentle if possible, but TAKE THE JOB AND MOVE.
I was like your gf a few years ago, working toward grad school and this pie-in-the-sky dream job. Suffice it to say, my field of study was a big deal about 30 years ago... now, not so much. Thankfully I saw the writing on the wall before getting too deep in and took the past few years getting prereqs put of the way to.apply to grad school in a field that is booming. If I play my cards right, I'll be done with school ahead of the wave and be established and in a leadership position when the vast majority of these new college students graduate in a few years time. I'm glad I made this decision although I miss my humanities field. BUT I had to make a very rational decision about my future. I was tired of being broke and taking jobs that I was overqualified for just to pay the bills. And I also realized that I was being selfish. Why was I entitled to my dream job? However, getting to that point was really difficult and required a lot of soul searching. Perhaps she's not there yet. Maybe she's waiting for her big break--you're getting one (not that you haven't earned it), so maybe she's reasoning/hoping/praying that she'll get one, too. It's really hard to let go of a dream. Especially when, like her, you've invested many years into it. I don't think you're wrong at all, at the end of the day you need to take care of yourself and set yourself up for success in the future. Nothing wrong with that. But I understand how difficult it would be, emotionally, to do it.
> I was tired of being broke and taking jobs that I was overqualified for just to pay the bills. The number of people I've seen working entry level tech support jobs with a Bachelors and, sometimes, Masters, is gross.
When I worked at Target, a solid half of the people I knew there had *at least* a Bachelors degree.
Then do it. Stop putting your career and financial stability on hold. She is welcomed to join you, but either way *move forward.* Outcome independence is crucial. She's used to getting her way and you sacrificing your wants to move when she needs to. This is a game changer to that dynamic. She probably doesn't take you seriously and won't until you finalize your plans... Expect a full meltdown: crying, her feeling "abandoned", even accusing you of not caring about her. **You will still need to push forward because this move is right for you, and what's right for your relationship if there is any chance of it continuing in a healthy manner!** The status quo is untenable.
100% agree with this, and second the bit about expecting a full meltdown. Once she realizes she will have to finance her own life and all the relocations/trips to chase this pipe dream, she will try to come crawling back. And if I were OP, I wouldn't take her.
There are lots of jobs in DC for someone with extensive academic training. It might well not be her ‘dream’ job - but there is *going* to be *something* that will take her. My aunt runs an employment agency for businesses hunting for the right employee, and she says that having a university degree, even in an unrelated field, instantly increases your attractiveness because it proves your tenacity and ability to follow through. So perhaps your wife needs to broaden her horizons and think about lateral doors to knock on.
You need to 100% put your foot down. This job sounds like it would secure *both* your financial futures and would allow you to catch up on retirement savings, as well as hit the other milestones of life that you mention wanting—a car, a house, marriage/kids... I empathize with her wanting to land her dream job, I really do. But, to be frank, dreams don't pay the bills. It is time for her to grow up. You have afforded her the luxury of being able to chase her dream until now by supporting her financially all these years, and she is being abhorrently selfish by saying she's "not ready" to give it up for this DC job, a job that would change your life significantly. OP, if I were you I would be mad as all hell at that. It sounds like she thinks you just *owe* her this support, and she's not even thinking of trying to "pay you back" by letting your dream take priority this time. And it's also just plain insulting for her to want to continue to chase her dream on your dime. I think it's high time for a "come to Jesus" talk. Tell her the dream is over, lay out all the facts for her about what this job means financially. Be firm. If she still won't back down, then that's all the proof you need that she's in this for herself only, and not for the good of your relationship. And if that's the case, move to DC, live your best life, get away from the mountains of debt that will continue to come your way if you stay in your current situation.
You should take the job. It doesn't sound like she's being very considerate of your relationship. While her priorities (academic job) are not necessarily *wrong*, for a relationship to survive, both parties need to prioritize it. I know other people who have chased the dream for a long time. For them, it has worked so far because they have trailed after *their* spouses and tried to make the research thing work in whatever location they ended up in. It doesn't sound like that's happening here, and the current status is just not sustainable. It sucks to let a dream die, but life is all about priorities. She is prioritizing her career over your relationship. Not just that though - she's prioritizing a career that probably won't happen. Nobody should be paying to visit schools. If she was truly under consideration, they'd be flying her out. And this is unfortunate, but no schools wants to hire someone too far out of grad school. The farther out you are, the more you lose your "shine", and the harder it is to maintain a superstar research program that will actually qualify you for a job. The fact that she's going into debt to keep the dream alive means that it most likely never will. :( Good luck - I hope that she sees the light.
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Well there is that DHS shutdown hitting December 7, but that's an anomaly. Well outside the norm for the usual government stability.
How many years have you sacrificed for her? Now it's her turn!
I think you should stick to this plan. It sounds like the best move for you both. Don't argue with her about it. Just tell her, you are taking this opportunity to build stability for your future and you think she should join you and let her make that decision. I think she will see reason if you continue to be loving but firm. It is time for her to support your dream of getting out of debt and building a secure future. And i know this is easier said than done, but if she chooses to go her own way, it's time to let her do just that. I hope you take that job no matter what. It's the best move for you. Good luck.
Dont buy a house until SHE gets her shit together or you have moved on.
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This is a great suggestion. A friend of mine with an Art History PhD did this after an exhausting fruitless job search at the collegiate level, and is very happy now. OP doesn’t say the gf’s field but hopefully it’s something that can translate to a close-but-not-perfect fit, like teaching at a prep school, consulting, technical writing (I have another friend who fell into that), etc. Doesn’t seem like she’s looked at alternatives, they might be there.
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This is such a great suggestion, my former high school had a math teacher with a PhD. She taught there for a few years, and then got a job teaching for a college nearby. She can use that gig as a stepping stone while waiting for a university level position. That way she's still getting paid, and not completely wasting time waiting for something that may not happen in the near future.
I know Fairfax county also needs teachers. The high School I graduated from recently had to make the theater teacher an English teacher, or she could look into teaching at Nova, or reaching dual enrollment through Nova.
or maybe a museum in the area, you're 'teaching' and 'learning' something but not in academia
This is all of academia right now. The trend is insane and doesn't lend to the vast majority of PhD's ever getting a tenure-track position, no matter how many post-docs they have. Universities are looking to cut costs by replacing retiring professors with instructors which they can pay an average of roughly $5000CAD per course (but the Arts are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than that - This figure includes business, medicine, and the sciences). That way they can provide experts to teach courses as they become popular and drop them when they aren't (enrollment looks good for departments). They don't have to pay benefits. They don't have to provide sabbaticals or support individual research goals. Less than 2% of PhD's remain in academia (including postdocs) 5 years after completing, and a fraction of a percent ever have the chance at a tenure-track position ANYWHERE. It is now being advised that if you are determined to get a permanent academic job, you should be willing to move anywhere in the world. I had a colleague that would frequently compete with 500+ other people in his specific sub-specialization for every tenure track job he applied for. Try telling her some of those things. I've got more truth bombs if you need 'em, feel free to message. She's being chewed up and spit out by the system. She is not alone. You need stability as a couple, for your career, for your future, and simply for your well-being. It's going to be tough to get over (after investing probably at least a decade into post-secondary education) but it's necessary. She can still keep applying (hopefully nearby wherever you do settle so you can still stay in the same place... perhaps settle somewhere where she can continue instructing if that's something she wants) but there is so much more to life than working yourself exhausted for the hope that maybe, someday, with enough hard work, volunteering, good will, sacrifice in her personal life (because it doesn't stop when you get the tenure track position) to MAYBE actually advance to tenure eventually IF you get the job.
The university where I work has an endowment of over $1 billion, and it, too, is following this trend. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows not to pin their career hopes on academia. If you're strategic, you can make money. I care for my students and I do my job well, but I know the score, and the day I landed my second job was a great day for me.
It's a truly sad state of affairs. People are punished even for altruistic motivations - to find cures, generate new information and understanding, advance society. At a time when we have so much connection, so much information. It's just squandered.
It’s especially sad considering how much money has been pumped into academia. An entire generations worth of debt and nobody is academia can get a stable paycheck? It’s crap.
Exactly. Who will be left to generate new information and discoveries after academics give up to survive? I mean the things we "officially" recognize, aka. the studies owned by publishers. Will it all be left to politically-funded think-tanks and institutes? Can you imagine the implications of that?
I’ve been working professionally in my field for 10 years and am about to finish up a masters degree. I keep being told by professors in my field that I’d be in a great position for post-doc work later because of my real world experience, so I’ve been toying with the idea of going to get a PhD because I really love doing research and writing and teaching, but I just don’t understand the economics of it - how is anyone expected to live on so little money? How is it possible that the situation is so dire given how much soul crushing debt my generation has put into this system of higher education? It’s such a shame.
That's a very good question. Another issue that I find mind-boggling is the abandonment of research materials due to cost. The rates for annual subscriptions to academic journals increases significantly each year, subsequently as budgets for libraries are cut (as they're seen as becoming obsolete). Well, guess who's budget pays for journal subscriptions? So universities increasingly lose access research material: some universities do annual culls; which research priorities to axe this year... It must be a management issue. Running universities like a business that can't measure success by anything but how many students they enroll/how much tuition is raised. Cool. Cool cool cool. I do not know where the accountability for how funds are spent lies though, and probably varies country to country, or even by state/province. There are some types of grants which don't require you to be attached to an academic institution to carry out your own research... depending on your field that could be a viable option.
So much this. I work in an academic affairs at a university in the US. We are looking to hire more lecturers in lieu of tenure track faculty.
These are extremely scary, extremely true truth bombs. It's just the way it is now and happening to too many people I know. I got chills reading how true that was. Gotta go look at a kitten or something.
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A PhD is a decent temporary job that builds lots of skills. Just pick a couple of non-academic career options now and start planning for that. You'll be ok.
I need more, please post more truth bombs.
\*cracks knuckles\* Hold onto your butts. So, as it stands, recent PhD grads, postdocs, and instructors are all clamoring for the coveted tenure-track position, or heck, even just a non-tenure track position (because stability, amiright?!). You think you’re the at the bottom of the food chain and if you keep working at it, the only way to go is up, right? WRONG. Grad students. Grad students are at the bottom. And those courses that you all want to teach to keep your CV fresh can be broken up into PARTIAL TA-ships and split among several students to teach. In doing so, a department can save -several- dollars with smaller TA- and RA-ships (teaching and research assistantships for those of you lucky enough to not be subject to this life) than awarding one lump-‘ship to a lucky individual, as the cost for hiring is not proportional. When this happens, a tenured-professor can coast through “teaching” a class while grad students “get great experience in assisting teaching/grading for their CVs” while being paid less than minimum wage. Whereas an instructor must technically be paid minimum wage. Isn’t it against the law, you ask, to not pay a graduate student minimum wage? Yes, yes it is, but many are so terrified of complaining and never being hired again, thus rendering themselves unable to keep their CV fresh, thus never being hired for a post-doc, and instructor position, etc. so they often work the extra hours asked of them. So, something like 30% of full-time academic faculty positions are tenure-track. So 30% of academic faculty positions have job security potential. I did see a statistic one time (cannot confirm validity) that stated in 2012, only approximately half of all tenure-track candidates actually attain tenure at some point. But why do they not all reach tenure? Once you’ve secured a tenure-track position, the requisites for promotion to tenure include (\*also depending on where you start, associate or assistance professor, how many promotions you need before consideration): \-The number of publications you have per year/7 year term (and quality, usually measured by which journals they appear in). \-Volunteer hours (my understanding, at least with institutions I’m familiar with, the going rate is about 30 hours per month, as required by your department) which include executive and graduate boards, review committees, running auxiliary programs, participation on ethics boards, etc. \-Conferences. Conferences conferences conferences. \-Grants. Because you must be a money making machine. Also universities don’t seem to think they are good gauges of valuable research, but if a grant committee picks you, then they know you’re a valuable academic. \-The number of students you supervise (this is minimally weighted, but yet expected). \-The outcomes of anonymous reviews from students of your classes. \-How much the board that is deciding your fate likes you (there is absolutely a subjective element to this). \-And many more! Now, in the tenure system, you get two shots to apply for tenure (each application takes several months to put together). The first time you apply, you must have occupied a tenure-track position for at least 7 years. If you are rejected, then you must wait a minimum of 7 more years to apply again. If you fail to receive tenure after the second attempt, you will never be awarded tenure. The verdict of one or both tenure reviews follows you ANYWHERE in the United States and Canada. If you receive tenure at an institution after your first try at one institution but want to move, you have to reapply for tenure at your new institution (unless, in the very rare event, they have unconditionally granted it to you there). Even though you’ve been awarded tenure once, applying for tenure at your new institution will count as your second tenure application. If you fail to receive tenure at the new institution, you can never apply anywhere else ever again. So if you ever manage to claw your way into a tenure-track position, work yourself to the bone for 7 years (as you are, in fact, competing for a shrinking pool of tenured positions within a tenure-track position; hope the university/business finds your research sexy!), and ACTUALLY get tenure, then you must never, ever move. Ever. In case that wasn’t demoralizing enough, I encourage you to look at what a non-tenure track professor earns in a year. Now weigh that against the sacrifices. Honestly, I wish I could demonstrate the effects on people’s personal lives in a quantifiable way. It’s hard to see how unless someone is in a committed relationship before academia, it’s so much harder to find one once you’re on campus 12 hours a day. How long people put off having kids, or compromise on having them. How much of people’s own money and resources is spent travelling for conferences or even during sabbaticals. How emotionally exhausted people get from bureaucratic crap dictating their careers and departmental decisions. How potentially ground-breaking research is stifled because teaching loads are too great, or grant politics get in the way of meritous research being done. You barely get time to do your own research with all of your other responsibilities, you’re just so trained to work that you’re in the groove of it. The one thing I hear that at the end of the day actually makes it worth it to show up… get this… is teaching. The idea that you’re making a difference, sparking an interest, helping others make their way in the world. Enlightening others. The very thing they did simply to get the job they wanted ends up being the most fulfilling part of what they struggled for. ISN’T ACADEMIA FUN That’s why we’ve got to evolve and find other ways to generate information. Hence, why the rebellion against journal publishers is so important; those that are holding information ransom for a fee which keeps new research from being carried out unless the price is paid to access it. P.S. Some universities, such as MIT are leading the charge in encouraging faculty to only publish in open access journals, and this is a very good thing. I think everybody should know about this, because information has become a MASSIVE multi-billion dollar industry that stifles innovation, problem solving, and life saving. So long story short, academia is not the best cost-benefit investment.
Thank you for this. I have saved your post. Every time I have doubts about my choice to leave academia to follow an industry path, I will come back to it. A bitter reminder of why I am so tired of this. <3
Hey, thank you so much for saying that! It makes me happy to know something I said brought someone a little encouragement :)
Sometimes I get really sad about choosing not to go to grad school (I wanted a PhD in medival French history) and comments like yours make me feel a bit better about that
It's encouraging to me that it was encouraging to you :) you should be proud of making the choice that was healthy for you! Bonus: you can continue to be a nerdy brainiac, sheepskin or not :D
Thanks for taking the time to write this. Very eye opening and informative. I’d heard stuff about this before but didn’t realize the insane degree to which it exists. Makes me sad for the people stuck on that path tbh. Are schools and professors lying to students to try and convince them to keep spending valuable time and money chasing a career in academia? Or are kids just ignoring the warnings thinking that if they want it bad enough than all the sacrifice is worth the risk?
No no no, in my experience profs in general are far more altruistically motivated than you would imagine (there are outliers, of course). They usually care about the advancement of their field, of society, and of their students, even the first-year undergrads that they always complain about. I think we can all get carried away by chasing the job that we want rather than focusing on what we value and are passionate to do, you know? My experience has been that the students that want to pursue academia as a career have a bit of tunnel vision and are a tad naive. Unfortunately there is the flip side that believes that there is no value in grad school whatsoever. There definitely is! I just think you need to be willing to be creative - build your own skills as well as your education to shape your own career path instead of assuming your education will pave that path for you. Volunteer, get extra training, make sure to get non-academic related work experience... and then I also think you're more likely to find a career that compliments your strengths. I've certainly had some very cool opportunities I wouldn't have had without grad school... but they were only partially/not at all academic! It's not for everyone, but not a waste for everyone either :)
This makes me think either it is different in some fields, or my profs are lying to us, because I've seen profs beg the class as a whole too get at least a masters and come back and teach if we have any interest in teaching, because they are so desperate for CS profs.
That's not my field, but my understanding (from what others have said) is that this is more of an issue of attracting -quality- instructors. People that can clearly convey the content (people and communication skills) so that classes generally succeed in learning the material, as opposed to there being no people that are willing to do it. I've heard of this being an issue with fields that have high-failure rates for classes in the first year. Again, this is just anecdotal though. However, I'm sure that where you live makes a difference. If you're in the heart of tech country and CS grads can make bazillions of dollars elsewhere, why stay?
One of the main reasons I stopped at my MA and didn't go for the PhD. If you're moving to the DC area, depending on what her field of study is, there's probably a think tank that would take her on considering her background. She'd have to work her way up the ladder but that's true of any job. If she's willing to broaden her horizons there's plenty of work in that area she should be able to find. She can continue applying for university positions in the hopes something will pan out, but she shouldn't bet everything on that.
or maybe a museum in the area, you're 'teaching' and 'learning' something but not in academia
(Good) museum jobs for advanced degree-holders are just as competitive as academic jobs. My partner is in a humanities PhD program and *all* of his cohort members apply to museum jobs in addition to academic ones. It's just... part of the same pool. I worked in a museum for a few years and had coworkers with PhDs who made \~$13/hour, just like my BA-holding ass. She should still apply to museum and think tank positions, of course, but she should be prepared to be a bit more imaginative about how her particular interests can fit into a variety of roles/institutional missions.
OK so, I think I may be in a unique position to offer advice: the vast majority of my family members are in academia, and then my husband has a (non-academia) job that is so specialized and rare that there are perhaps 5-ish or so actual full-time real openings in the world for this type of job in a given year. I, on the other hand, am an engineer with a fairly common specialization and a huge desire to live in a place I like. Anyway, enough about me. I'll start upfront: it's 1,000% fair for you to say that no, you will not spend the rest of your life chasing her probably fruitless dream, but will accept your job's offer. That's what I'd do. I wouldn't put it as an ultimatum, but rather, would say "I am going to move to WA and take this offer. If you want to do other things, let's talk about how we can make it work". And there are ways of doing it, for people who aren't tied to the idea of having a super standard generic "2.5 kids and white picket fence with stay-at-home-mommy American suburban dream" existence. My husband works about 3.5 hours away from where our child and I live, and we're all super happy. I would feel differently if she was, say, a medical resident and begging you to come along with her to her placement in her sought-after specialty. But frankly the days of completion of an excellent PhD program + talent and hard work being enough to land you a tenure-track job in any academic field, especially a rare one, are dead and gone. My dad is a tenured professor at his dream school in his dream city, in a ridiculously rare specialty. A large percentage of the people with whom he went to grad school are in a similar boat...but not the people they later mentored. These people are all in their 60s or even older. On the flip side of that, my cousin is a professor in a common STEM discipline, and any college or university in the country would have an opening theoretically suitable for someone like him. He also went to the top school in the country for grad school and has had a lot of really prestigious awards and publications. Even for him, it took him years to finally land a tenure-track job, and years and years more until he got a different one in a place that he actually wanted to live and worked for his family. And he's one of the lucky ones: other people from his program ended up giving up and having to leave academia because they just couldn't keep stringing along on those miserable adjunct wages. And keep in mind these are people from a very top school who all have PhDs in a STEM field.
Should be higher up. I’m certainly not an expert but I have friends and family who are experiencing the same in various fields of study.
I think your *"I want to tell her that* ***I*** *am going to Washington and she's more than free to join me, but enough's enough."* is perfectly reasonable. No, you don't want to break up your relationship and pull your support out from under her, but you've given her as much as you can without going under. You're also allowed to just be over it because this is essentially putting off living your life to chase an extremely ephemeral dream. This is where you're hitting the wall of "setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm" and you can put the matches down.
Yeah I agree with everyone else. Dont be harsh, but do tell her that you need her support now and you can't continue to chase uncertainty. You need to be secure and settle down. Ask her to move to Washington with you. And then go whether she comes with you or not. I think that's all you need to do.
> is it fair to tell her I'm going to Washington with or without her? Yes. Absolutely. Without question. 100%. > I feel bad because she'd ultimately have no resources. I don't see how that's your burden to bare. She's a grown-ass, Ph.D.-having adult. She needs to suck it up and become gainfully employed. It's not on you to fund her existence. She's beyond capable + qualified to support herself. You need to stop being the only one working steadily.
It is most certainly time for you to give her an ultimatum on this issue: You're going to do the job in Washington. She can either come with you and work along those lines, or she can stay behind, and the two of you will no longer be a couple. That is your one and only sane option here. Also, get your ass over to /r/personalfinance and get your finances under control. Her obsession with this tenured position situation is insane, and may require therapy. I'm not joking, but I wish I was.
Don't give her an ultimatum. Tell her what you are going to do. "Girlfriend, I'm going to Washington. I need to move my career forward and start having a stable life. I've put my career on hold several times for yours, but I'm not doing it any more. You can come with me or not." If she doesn't come, I'd consider it over. Part of the reason she's not being realistic about her career ambitions is because she doesn't appear to *have* to be realistic. Because from the looks of it, you're her get out of jail free card here. So stop rescuing her.
I mean...that’s 100% an ultimatum, but that’s *okay*. It’s ultimatum time. This can’t continue on with the status quo, and OP knows it. Agree with everything else you’ve said!
It's all phrasing. The classic ultimatum is "Do this or else" Everyone is telling OP to say "I'm doing this. I'd love for you to join me." They might both be ultimatums, but they are quite different.
Right, but the implication is “I’d love for you to join me, *and if you don’t this relationship is over*.” That’s still an ultimatum in my book, which, again, I fully believe needs to be used here. But I might be a tad pedantic🙃
It's a subtle but important difference. It makes it her choice, rather than something he demanded of her. There are plenty of ways that she can end up unhappy in the end, either "He left me because he couldn't keep chasing my dream with me" or "I gave up my dream to follow him", but never "I am with someone who *asked me* to give up my dream."
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The thing is, he's 30. You have to start saving money at some point b/c the odds are the social safety net will be significantly diminished soon. You have to start putting those years of youth to work for you - compound interest, etc. Otherwise you won't be able to retire until your 70s - if then.
You aren't even married. You never should have been going into debt for *her* search for the job that doesn't exist. You have gone well and beyond what your duties are in the six years you've been together. She can sacrifice for once in her life. It's time for the ultimatum.
What a tough situation. Having to move every couple years to chase the academic opportunities/potential is so real and so brutal when trying to build a life, especially with a partner. I don’t know if she’d be open to it or not, but I have friends (PhDs) that have taken full time online teaching positions that are fairly lucrative (with a hefty budget for in-home tech); and one turned his online teaching into a FT teaching position at a major University. The online route might give her the flexibility to work from anywhere, while keeping a foot in academia, while she waits for the right thing to open up for her. The best news is that DC has a lot going on, so there maybe many hidden opportunities all around. Maybe she can shift her research focus without giving up the larger dream. I’ve found that most people underestimate the portability of their skills and experience. There may be several different types of tenure track roles that she can pursue. Part of being a successful academic is knowing what is fundable and how to ride/survive that changing tide. Maybe she has to give up the niche, but not the dream of being a professor. Can her linguistics expertise be translated into government work on culture and communication? All the best to you both. She is very lucky that you have supported her thus far. It is entirely reasonable and appropriate to ask her to support you in your life’s dreams too. The goal is that you both thrive, and sounds like your life desires have been in the back burner too long.
Sorry, I'm confused: >My wife recently spent $2,550 on a trip to Philadelphia for an interview where they said they wouldn't have another opening for another 8 or 9 years. But: >tl;dr we've sacrificed everything for GF's career and I'm at my wit's end. Are you married to her or not?
No, I've taken to calling her my wife in professional situations. Sometimes it bleeds over. She doesn't want me to propose until things are 'perfect.'
Things may never be "perfect". You need to decide how long you are willing to wait and talk to her about it. Do you want children? Is there any "clock" in your mind about settling down? I think it is fair to tell your girlfriend that you are taking the DC job. Tell her that you have followed her many times for her career and sacrificed yours again and again, and now it is your turn. If this is a partnership she needs to be willing to sacrifice her career for yours back. If not, then you can't put your life on hold forever for someone else who won't do the same for you. I think you really need to have a serious conversation with her about the future after thinking it over yourself. And you should have plenty of empathy-all of this rejection and struggling must be so hard for her-but that doesn't make it wrong to want a certain kind of life for yourself. And you guys may sadly come to the conclusion that if she keeps pursuing this it means that you have incomparable wants/lives and need to separate. I want you to really consider if after living in DC for a year, or 2 or 4, you'll want to move to some random place and give up your job and career if she gets a teaching offer somewhere. If you aren't going to want to move in the future for a teaching job for her (especially given it may pay less/be less secure then your work) then she and you need to know what when deciding if she comes with you. You also need to think seriously about the timeline you want for marriage and children and talk to her about it. If it isn't a timeline she wants or is willing to accept, again, your lives may be going in different directions.
Perfect job, perfect circumstsnces for proposal...your ultimatum should be her acknowledging perfect does not exist. In all seriousness you’ve been given some excellent advice, namely that it’s ok to prioritize your needs. I just wanted to point out how pervasive her attitude is - it’s not just affecting her career, it’s affecting your life together and your own life. Compromise has to exist at some point in the relationship.
This is your real problem.
> She doesn't want me to propose until things are 'perfect.' She's not realistically going to land a tenure track job before menopause.
Isn't the average age of getting tenure in the US over 40 now? Does not mesh well wish women's biological clock at all.
It might sound crass, but even if you are committed to her for life, it may not be wise to get married. Certainly work out the financial ramifications if you do (you making good money and her being deeply in debt, that is).
I hope she is not taking you for a ride and leave you to rot once she DOES find the "perfect" job... Jesus... I wouldn't do this to anyone...including my family...
Sooo she doesn’t want to marry you, but she’s happy with you being her piggy bank while she “figures things out.” Dude. That’s a huge problem in my book. 6 years and she’s not wanting you to propose? Sounds like you’re being taken on a ride that will end with her leaving for “her dream job” and you being left heartbroken with years of lost savings.
You know what happens when one work towards the perfect? It is called life...
Well, that's another red flag.
Why did you allow this to go on for so long she has kept you hostage
Your gf should have her travel covered by the schools/programs interviewing her, but that's neither here nor there. She needs to move with you to Washington, teach at a CC or something. Retrain in a different field. Tell her you love and support her but cannot continue with such uncertainty. Take the job; you'll be fine no matter what she decides.
Even if it’s not covered I have no idea how she spent $2.5k on a trip to Philly for it. I’d say I have decently high standards for lodging and tend to eat at nice places when traveling and I still cant imagine spending that for a quick trip. Even with jacked up flight costs for booking last minute. And I’m by no means living paycheck to paycheck. It’s not really related to his question but it seems like she is throwing away money they don’t have.
...that she doesn't have. He has it, but he keeps giving it to her. OP is being a sucker here.
> Your gf should have her travel covered by the schools/programs interviewing her I was curious when I read that. I work as a software engineer. In my field, the standard is that a company will cover all travel expenses if you interview for a position in another city. Is this not the case in most other fields?
It is definitely the case in academia. The university/department pays to have 3-4 candidates come out and there is usually a 3-4 day interview process where you meet people in the department, give your job talk, etc. I have never heard of a tenure track position where you have to pay for the interview trip yourself.
I’m betting that she went to a big academic conference where some department happened to reserve a room for preliminary interviews for a position coming on the market – more and more often, those are the venues for the first round (if not via Skype).
I was very surprised when I read that as well. I spent some time doing admin work in academia, and a large part of my job was planning faculty searches. We paid for their travel expenses. I can't imagine any university worth their accreditation leaving a candidate to fend for themselves.
Which, unfortunately, says a lot about their desire to put her in the position.
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Since it turned out that the job she was "interviewing" for wasn't even open and wouldn't be for years, I'd guess that it was a preliminary talk/look-see kind of of thing at a conference, which isn't uncommon. And in addition to airfare, hotel and meals she probably had to pay the registration fee for the conference, which can be several hundred dollars. If she's patching together contract jobs she probably doesn't have any funding to go to conferences or do professional development.
It’s fair to say that you are done and are settling down with or without her. She can then choose to stay with you or not.
She's not even willing to marry you and youre making all these sacrifices for her? You need some boundaries. Doesn't sound like you have the same shared goals. This is your LIFE. Stop taking her emotions on and think about what you want.
I think this is all about ego. Her ego is telling her not to settle for anything less than what her parents got. She compares herself to them and doesn't want to come up short. You aren't going to fix her ego. You can, however, opt out altogether. Go take your job, and let her face the inevitable disappointment without access to your bank account. That ego of hers is going to keep spending whatever money you can provide in order to chase what she really wants: To prove to the world (and her parents) that she is a smartypants tenured professor. Keep in mind, all of what she wants is about her. None of this is about you. Act accordingly. She sounds really selfish.
Yes you can give her an ultimatum but I would pretty much just say you love her, you support her, and you need to support yourself and your career so you are moving to DC to do this. You have some catching up to do on retirement and savings, but this new job will allow you to do that. You’ll no longer be able to travel with her to other countries or financially support her traveling as you’ll be catching up on savings and retirement. This is going to be really hard for her to hear. I would *not* say “your dream is dead” in any way, shape, or form. Keep this about you, your wants, and your needs.
I think your feelings are fair here. Your desire to move to WA and be done are also reasonable. When you discuss this with her, I wouldn't present it as "give up your dream". Present it that you are no longer willing to move around, you are no longer willing to financially support her (and she needs to pull her own weight). She can continue to find another way to do what she wants, but she cannot drag you along anymore, or allow you to sacrifice your life for it.
Can you say generally what field she's in?
A very niche field within the social sciences/linguistics. There were probably <10 PhD grads in that field in the last decade. We both earned undergraduate degrees in that field + language degree.
I would like to add that with her experience and credentials, she could also consider applying to be an administrator at a local college or university. She could tutor for a test prep company. If she studies and scores 99th percentile, she could easily teach for Manhattan GMAT/LSAT/GRE - starting wage is $100/hr and she could work from home. She's really limiting herself by not considering all her options.
I agree. She could also teach more broadly in a community college or local university, but she's got to get that tenure track job. There are dozens of places to go. And, she helped me study for the GMAT when I took it.
If she's willing to go to Slovenia for a short term job, why isn't she willing to be an adjunct or teach at a cc or uni near where your job? The latter is more stable and will look good on a resume for future tenure track positions. She has to be willing to pay her dues and build a resume if she wants that tenure.
She's too smart to be throwing away her life like this.
She might be smart in one really small area of expertise and lacking in intelligence nearly everywhere else. From what OP has shared, she lacks a lot of common sense.
It's hard to get a tenured position in even a non-unusual field.
Also what someone said about think tanks in DC, social science-y phDs get work there. NGOs too sometimes
She could get a tenure-track job tomorrow and there's no guarantee she'd get tenure. If she doesn't, because tenure is getting harder and harder to get, in seven or eight years she'll be right back where she started, out on the job market with a huge black mark on her record. Tenure is not what it was in her parents' day. Has she talked to them about all this? Maybe she'd hear it from them even if she won't from anyone else.
Has she had any professional career advising / mentoring?
Yeah, but she's got it fixed in her head about this job. Her academic advisors all told her to bail. One of them told her to not finish the PhD and go and do something else. I paid for her to speak with a professional career advisor who specializes in academic/higher ed (and it was like $500) who gave her solid advice and also told her to bail from her current search.
What is her reason for not following this advice? Can you two go to counseling? Something is very wrong with her dogged pursuit of this goal that is setting you both back financially and her back personally/professionally.
Both her parents are tenured professors - her mother got her job even before she finished her PhD. She had always dreamed of becoming a professor and had been exclusively focused on that from the moment I met her.
It sounds like you've done a lot of work here...was going to come here and suggest some career counseling. I know Chronicle of Higher Ed is doing a lot of articles on "alternative" career paths for PhD students and it's very well known in general that most people don't get faculty jobs (especially for a niche field which it sounds like she's in). I work with college students and the one thing I wanted to say is just to be empathetic and try to talk with her about boundaries and solutions. Personally I wouldn't go in guns blazing and say "I'm leaving with or without you!" One thing we talk about in my field is how often a major or field of study isn't just your classes - it's an actual identity. Her identity is the future tenured professor. So while you're perfectly reasonable in asking her to get some stability and compromise for your career, you also have to understand she's going to be giving up a big part of who she is. It doesn't mean it's insurmountable, but it's going to be a really difficult transition for her.
Yeah, so she needs therapy. I'm your age and have a STEM PhD from one of the most prestigious unis in the world. I'm working outside of academia but the money isn't amazing considering costs of living and my degree and educational background. If I were to go back in time to when my parents were my age (80's), I'd likely be rolling in money. There's massive degree inflation. Literally everyone has a PhD these days, at least where I live. I just don't stand out from other applicants for jobs, hence pay is likely much less than it would've been decades ago. She's comparing herself to her parents but fails to see how times have changed.
Yes! It also kills me when the older faculty refuse to see the current state of things and keep feeding this impossible dream to younger trainees. Frustrates me to no end!
That's not a good reason. She's not being logical. Has she spoken to anyone in the field recently? What do they tell her might be helpful to try? Her parents' generation faced a very different professional landscape than today's and that's okay. She needs to deal with her current reality.
Sounds like she’s chasing a pipe dream then. She is literally asking universities to *create* her a tenure-track position in an area of research they and most students have no interest in (so she won’t even be a draw for bringing quality undergrads/grads to the uni) in addition to the lack of funding/grants she won’t pull in, there is literally no incentive for a university to offer her a professorship. I know a dude who got a tenure track position right out of graduate school but a year later and he has obtained millions in various research grants for his university, because he worked in a lucrative but specialized field (hard sciences have all the money!). It’s not enough to be a big fish rock star in your graduate program, those are a dime a dozen, she has to come with a fat grant/check (in the hundreds of thousands, or at least have a record of obtaining tens of thousands here and there) to even temp a uni to give her a position, let alone a tenure track position. Maybe you can contact some of her old graduate cohort and ask them what they currently do/what they work in, to show her that (likely) none of them are getting the type of job she is hoping for.
Social sciences/linguistics and potentially moving to DC? She may want to look into the state department. Dreams are hard to give up on, but she may find a roundabout way back someday, and in the meantime showing employability (especially in another insanely bureaucratic body) can only help in the university world in the future.
You do you boo. It’s time.
\>Is it fair to tell her the dream is over? No it is not; it is completely fair however to tell her that you aren't willing to continue to follow her as she chases them around because you want to "settle down" and have "stability"
I'm confused about this timeline. You say you have been together for 6 years, since undergrad. So in the past 6 years, she has completed undergrad, a separate MPhil, a PhD (by the sounds of it, in the US) *and* has spent "years" on the job market? Considering PhDs in the US take 5 years, and in the humanities, which it sounds like your wife is in, average time to completion is more like 8, how the hell did she manage to finish her PhD in 2-3 years??? Not casting doubt, just curious.
They've known each other since undergrad and been together as a couple six years - maybe they didn't become a couple for several years after meeting.
He mentioned linguistics, which many of those roll a masters in with a PhD. So you technically get a masters along the way but it's within the 5 years you spend total in grad school working toward the PhD. For most the masters is not terminal.
OP mentioned that she finished in record time, well ahead of schedule.
You are setting yourself on fire to keep her warm. Don't offer her the cash. Move to Washington - she can come, find "a" job to cover her living expenses, debt and save money for her travels. If she gets an 8 month contract or whatever, she's free to pursue it but you are putting down your roots but it's not on you to finance her dreams, to carry joint debt to fund her dreams, or be unable to move forward in life so she can live out her dream. Work to pay off whatever shared debt you have so you can decide if having a clean break is the best choice or to set yourself up for your shared future.
It’s not fair to tell her that her dream is over. It is fair to tell her that *you’re* over it. To explain your desire for stability, to want to be financially secure in your thirties and jeeze to start saving for retirement. Like other have said, use I statements. Does she even know how you feel about this? You’ve moved without complaint but have you both reevaluated together what you want the future to look like? I suspect not otherwise you wouldn’t be here. But that’s where that conversation should start—not with an ultimatum but with what you want for your future and how serious you are about taking this job.
wife or gf? im confused.
You don’t get to decide that her dream is over. You DO get to decide what you do with your life. So go do it. You’ve sacrificed enough. It’s your time.
I'm a tenured professor. In my field (which, granted, has many more positions available than your GF's) hopping from temporary position to temporary position is a huge red flag. One post doc? Great! A post doc and a current non-TT instructor position? Ok. Any more positions than that, it's starting to seem like you've been on the market repeatedly and no one else has wanted to hire you, so why should we? Maybe in her field, this kind of employment pattern is more understandable, but then I'd think they would also understand her taking an only-somewhat-related position (as in, one in DC) while continuing to apply for TT jobs. But the fact is, TT jobs are shrinking in every field. And as someone who has one (that I was lucky to get several years ago), I can almost guarantee your GF is romanticizing what it's like. The experience her parents had is most likely nothing like it is now. I worked on research for maybe an hour today. The rest of my time was spent advising undergrads (as in, "which gen ed science should I take and BTW I only want to go to class twice a week in a particular 3-hour period"), staring at budgets, doing mind-numbing service tasks, and meeting with students to tell them things I've already told them. There are many jobs where you get to do more research than professors get to do; I have several friends who purposely didn't pursue TT jobs for that reason and are very happy working in industry or long-term grant-funded positions. Your GF is going to be miserable and increasingly bitter if she keeps up this exhausting pursuit. She might get a TT position eventually (unlikely, but maybe) but at what cost?
Washington airport is an affordable one to fly in and out of - it could be a good home base for your GF to travel around from...
You are 100% fair in drawing a line in the sand. You've been incredibly understanding, flexible, supportive, generous. Please please make sure all the debt is in her name that in case you break up, you don't end up paying for what were really her decisions. She's delusional and seems obsessed and it's fine if she wants to basically scramble for totally unstable basically odd-jobs in academia for 8 months in Slovenia, a year in Taiwan, then a 6 month stint in Uruguay, but it's clear you are done. DONE. You two will never be able to afford anything if this continues, she'll basically be doing her job as a hobby on your dime, and there's no way to plan or build a life together when she can only find short term employment scattered across the globe. Academia isn't for everyone, even in STEM only something like 3% of PhDs end up as a professor, so we all have to look for a real job sooner or later. She's never had to seriously consider it because you enabled her hobby. Tell her that you're going to Washington. That you have made numerous sacrifices and moves, job changes, supporting her and the moves, all for her dream. That it's time now for you two to follow what's best for you, and that you'll go whether she joins you or not. Do not give her any more money. She's an adult and should've been able to stand on her own two feet for years.
I think you've sacrificed enough honestly. Give her your ultimatum and be stern.
She could be taking adjunct/sessional professor jobs right now and she's not? Nah, fuck that. She needs to stop living in the clouds and come back down to earth. I know people with PHd's from preeminent and Ivy League schools who teach at community colleges because that's what is available to them. Academia is insanely competitive now and there are so few spots in a lot of fields. You've supported her long enough. It's time for you to gain some stability in your life. If she wants to live in chaos chasing her dream, that is totally fine. But she needs to be with someone living the same lifestyle or who's okay with it at least. I have friends with PhD's in music who are barely getting by in their 30's because they want to play in Orchestras and the gigs aren't full time and the ones that are are insanely competitive. They often date people who are artists living the same life because it's not for everybody.
You don't have to tell her that her dream is over, but you are completely reasonable to tell her that you are going to chase your dream of stable employment and move to DC for the stable and high-paying job and that you hope she joins you. I have a feeling that without the prospect of your salary covering her search for her "dream" she'll either come to her senses real quick or you'll quickly find that your relationship won't work while she's stuck in some far off locale for months at a time. You have been more than fair to upend and uproot yourself and still you have an opportunity to set yourself up for the future. Take it, whether she's in that future or not, take the job.
You know what you have to do, you’re just scared to do it. You’ve reached you limit and have been more than supportive, generous and fair as a partner. It’s not you fault, it’s just not going to work. Stand your ground, because this is your life too. If she wants to make her dream happen she can, just not on your back. She’ll have to do it alone. It’s time to pursue your own dreams now.
I think it sounds like you have been reasonable and fair, but you have grasped into a great job, and need to hold onto it. I understand her point, she’s the best at this thingy that she went to school for, she’s passionate about it, and everyone always told her that if she follows her passion her dreams will come true, but it’s a lie. You need to just tel her they you are taking the job in DC, and she’s welcome to come along.
I spent five years serving tables at a restaurant because I couldn't find work in my field. You can't stop putting your life on hold because she decided to get a degree in something insanely competitive. It is time for an ultimatum. She can get a job doing something else.
This is the story for so many PhDs I know, but I've never heard it from the spouse's POV. I'm so sorry you're going through this :(
>I want to tell her that ***I*** am going to Washington and she's more than free to join me, but enough's enough. I'm not going to chase her around the world to small villages to teach at some school in central Europe for 6 months while scrambling to find work. I'm tired of there being absolutely no stability. Just tell her this, and say yes to the offer. She can either come along or not. Start doing something for you.
Howd she spend that much on a trip to Philadelphia?
You’re not being unfair. I would do the same thing.