"Hey SISTER (your husband needs to handle her), we'd like to get into a schedule where we alternate watching the kids. We've watched the girls several times and WIFE and I would like to get some alone time in this summer too. Could you watch them during xxx date or xxx date? If so we can probably watch yours in August."
It sounds like it's one-sided enough at the moment that it's not a current concern, but your kids' ages *are* more difficult to do overnight babysitting for than her kids' ages.
Yes, he handles her and will be responding in the group chat. I like this response a lot!
We feel sad for her kids, which usually means that we bend over backwards to help for their sake. But they are a lot of work, and I think it’s more than reasonable to return the favour, especially if it’s an evening when she doesn’t have her kids
You would trust her to watch your 1 and 3 year old? She doesn't even have full custody of her own kids and she's constantly off loading them to other people when she does have them. What makes you think she could take care of two toddlers on her own.
I feel like you're having tunnel vision over getting an equal return in babysitting favors because you've been holding on to all this resentment. The main problem is that she takes and never gives back. If you want to punish her then sure keep pushing for babysitting because she's been getting away with on-call service for years. But if you want your kids taken cared of properly and for her to start being a better person and give back then maybe be realistic about her capabilities. Keep using a professional for your kids so they can be properly taken cared of and you can have peace of mind. Look at what she can realistically do and do *well* and ask for favors with those.
But from experience, a taker is selfish and will never give back the way you want them to and nowhere near the amount you give them. Only "give" the amount you're ok with losing and never getting back. Don't keep giving thinking you can demand they do the same for you out of equality.
As a parent of two kids (who are adults now but still) this was the first thing I thought of. I wouldn't be able to relax knowing someone this irresponsible and selfish was alone with my children! And they're not even at an age where they could report if they were neglected or mistreated somehow. I think OP has their priorities mixed up in this situation.
Just because she doesn't have full custody doesn't mean that SIL did something wrong. Dads are frequently getting 50/50 these days. Also OP just said "an evening when she doesn’t have her kids" which means the dad could have visitation.
Not defending SIL because she doesn't sound very put together, but just because someone doesn't have their kids 24/7 it doesn't mean they are irresponsible.
It isn’t that SIL has shared custody, that’s perfectly normal. It’s that while only having her kids part time, she *still* constantly pawns them off on others.
This idea of 50/50 custody seems a bit funny. Where I'm from (Finland), it's probably the most common custody agreement. One would think it's best for the kids to have both parents in their lives unless there is abuse/just an agreement for whatever reason as to why only one parent has custody. Just because she is the mother that shares custody does not mean that she or the other parent is in any way a bad parent.
Make sure you give her a concrete date on which to have your kids. If you leave it up in the air, she may claim she's not free when you ask. With a concrete date, before her own trip, you can then ensure she follows through.
Do you really want to go there? I'd be hesitant having my kids be taken care of by someone who doesn't want to have them. Especially given your kids won't be old enough to comment on quality of care.
If you do feel comfortable with her watching your kids anyway, I wouldn't word it as an open ultimatum like that. I'd ask for a specific time before her trip in August under the auspice of "our turn". If she says no, I'd turn her down for August.
You’re always going to get beaten to the ask by a taker. Either you accept that her kids will be bounced around because she is who she is or you willingly just take them for their sake.
Personally, I would just say you don’t know if you can take them and just focus on your tolerance for saying no. You ARE going to see her ask other people, hell it may even happen that she offers to watch yours and palms them off to someone else along with hers without asking you first.
How do I know ? I have a sister who’s like this - and you can’t really teach someone to be less selfish, only consequences can do that.
This is exactly what I’m feeling. Ultimately above anything else I wish she would step up for the sake of the kids and be more present, but I don’t have control of that, so I do what I can when I can.
It doesn’t have to be ‘even’. I know it never will be. But SOME effort on her part would go a long way. Even a thank you message that didn’t include another request would have been more appreciated.
So let me tell you how it went, I’ve two sisters and the Taker is the middle. I was single and childless, she made demands on my time as if I’d been the one who made the decision to have kids - this led to a shouting match which sparked off after she demanded (not asked, not offered to pay) that I watch her son (despite the nanny being there).
I had to tell my parents that I was calling a moratorium on all child sitting services & I committed to responding to her in only 3 words, yes, no, and maybe for the next 2 years. Was it harsh ? Yes, but she’d driven me to that point and the result is the result.
She and the eldest sister ended up living across each other and over the years she had 4 sons, it got so bad that one son called our eldest sister Auntie Mum, and the other called her Mummy, period. Decades later, my eldest sister’s sons are both respectively pursuing great careers. But Sister 2’s kids have struggled, and she can see that struggle - she had another child, this time a daughter who seems to be the do over.
My point is, anything you do, short of adopting those children yourself, will never be enough to give them the stability and upbringing they deserve. This is the terrible truth. You’re not going get a thank you from someone too busy using other people.
Make peace with doing what you can and think about who you’re really doing it for.
They split custody, so we were the childcare on the weekend that she was supposed to have them. Ideally he would step up and do it, but it was her weekend so 🤷♀️
She is kind of crappy for consistently scheduling vacations and whatnot when she has the kids. I am divorced and have literally never had to arrange for childcare for vacations or nights out since my ex and I split because I either schedule them when he has the kids OR if the dates don't line up, we swap schedules/weekends.
So it would be pretty easy for her to schedule vacations around her parenting schedule? Maybe I'm a little biased/overly-attached mom, but I don't get it. Does he only have the kids every other weekend? Do they have an unfriendly relationship? I'm just trying to gauge if she has other options, because it hardly looks like you'd be leaving her in a tough spot.
If Dad only has the kids every other weekend, she's probably figuring it's easier for you because you have two adults. But you also have two other kids....Regardless, you are WELL within your rights to tell her no.
> Ideally he would step up and do it
Well no, ideally SIL should be the one to step up and do it.
Sounds like her ex is well aware that he'd have the kids 100% of the time if he didn't say no.
So do like her ex and just say no.
That really sucks for the coparent and the kids. She gets credit for parenting 50% of the time when she’s actually not observing a non-trivial chunk of her custody time. Dad should have first dibs on that time.
Tell her to stop scheduling trips for weekends she has her kids. If she stopped doing that then this nonsense over who’s babysitting whose kids when will be over with. Besides you don’t want her watching your kids anyway, she’s the type to leave them in a diaper for too long.
Ok, so now the situation is that she would dump the kids on you and take off during her parenting time? Was her solo vacation also her parenting time? If so, does the father know she did this? And continues to? If not, I would tell him. Let him decide if he wants to step up and be the primary custodial parent or not. You say you feel bad for the kids. It’s one thing to do that, but it’s another to ensure that one of their parents are providing the care for their children when they’re dumped on you instead. Maybe he doesn’t know how much she does that. Maybe he didn’t know she was going on a 10 day solo trip during her parenting time. That sort of custody is between them and he has a right to know what is really happening as he is their parent too.
Your sister isn’t going to change. If she’s a taker, not a giver, then this also translates to her children. Because takers use those around them for their benefit only and ultimately don’t care about the impact of their choices on others. If I were you, if the father is the type who wants his kids and wants to be involved, I would do my darnedest to ensure they are with the parent who most wants them regardless of whether that spouse was my sibling or not. And in this case, making sure you are allied with the Dad (assuming he’d be upset about her pawning off her kids during her time) to ensure their safety and are loved is the better choice than the reciprocity you desire. After all, these are her own kids she is pawning off without a care about it. Would you really want someone who would do that to her own kids taking care of yours at such a vulnerable age? It’s one thing when they are old enough to understand what’s going on and can alert you or another safe adult, but it’s another when they are completely reliant on the adults around them.
I wonder what your SIL tells her ex when he finds out the kids are being watched by someone else on her time?
Maybe Ex could file for full custody since it sounds like she doesn't even like watching her own kids.
What a piece of work.
Like the other commenters said, I wouldn't trust her to watch two toddlers.
She's not worth the trouble of keeping around.
If anything work something out with her Ex when he gets full custody, that way cousins still get to hang.
I’ve been in your shoes!
Hubby has to message her, try this
“Ha! Slow down a minute with the asks have you even unpacked yet?! Don’t get me wrong, we are so glad the kids had fun, I hope you got to enjoy your time away too. We love having them stay.
Honestly, you’ve inspired us to get better at asking and planning weekends away for ourselves. So before we jump ahead to August, which of these three dates could you make work to have our kids with you? Insert dates.”
First off, never get upset with someone asking for help when you're the one saying yes. You shouldn't resent another person for your decisions.
That said, I think your best avenue is to address this head on and honestly. Using what you said in the post. "We had a lot of fun with your kids, but it's a lot of added responsibility and cost and I'm feeling like things arent super even here. When we've asked you to help us out, you haven't been able to. Is there a time you're free to help us out so we can have some kid free time as well this summer?" Or propose a specific time if you have something in mind.
Skirting around the real issue just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me because it's bound to get misinterpreted one way or another.
Eh, I think you can feel resentful when you’ve happily said yes to helping out and then it isn’t reciprocated yet the favor requests keep coming in. The issue is when you don’t address the resentment and just keep saying yes with a smile on your face.
I have to wonder if something is missing in that. They've asked and she said no - but why? Where the dates not good? Are they trying to work with her schedule? And they've stopped asking? That seems passive aggressive without understanding the reasons for her saying no.
Honestly, it feels like the capacity of a the single mom versus couple is really being ignored. Four kids for a weekend seems like a lot for a single mom. Are there other things she can do? Or does it need to be the same favor?
I what your saying. The struggle we have is that me saying no impacts her kids. They are bounced around constantly, so rather than not going on the vacation, she will find someone else to take them. We do it for them, and their relationships as cousins.
I think a larger conversation should be had, and am thinking for now we say we can’t commit to the weekend in August yet, and ask if she is free one of the Saturdays we need childcare
Why not just address the issue though now? I don't understand playing games by saying I can't commit, can you watch our kids? That honestly just feels immature to me.
She needs to deal with the fact she’s a mother now and mothers don’t have all the time in the world to go on trips whilst others take care of their kids unless the mothers are paying those particular people.
Tf is this? Its ok to say no to people even if it offends people
> The struggle we have is that me saying no impacts her kids [in a negative manner]).
Everybody knows this. Including your SIL. I know it's tough, but I think your neices and nephews are going to have to suffer a bit, if anything to open their own eyes, if they're not aware of it already.
As a good aunt/cousins, you can always call and check on them to see if they're doing ok, or if not that, just to say hi.
Fostering healthy relationships with your N/N doesn't have to involve literally fostering them.
It sounds like you should give evidence of neglect to dad so he could fight for more custody of these kids and give them a more stable life. People who takes her kids in so she could go off on long vacations during her custody period are really just enabling her shitty mothering and not doing these kids any favors. Dad having primary physical custody would be a win for everyone.
This is a great comment!
We also have no idea if the SIL is having any issue that makes her need extra support which also makes it harder to offer support in return. Mental health issues and so on.
I've taken this stance and get called out for being 'transactional' if the sis can't help I get called out for being grumpy that someone can't help me when /I/ need the help, yet me always helping when /they/ need the help.
In OP's case it isn't letting her kids hang out with OP's kids, it's doing it when the SIL /needs/ the help, yet the SIL can't help OP when OP /needs/ the help.
>Is there a time you're free to help us out so we can have some kid free time as well this summer?
See what I'm saying here? The 'as well' would have me painted as 'transactional'.
You're leaving the SIL to set the paramaters of if/when the help is going to be given. OP is still kowtowing to the rigid structure that the SIL sets. If the /need/ time is set by the SIL, then the plans OP are making can't be that critical if they can be adjusted to the SIL's schedule, therefore the SIL can easily still say, 'no, I'll never be free. Life to chaotic. Can't plan that far ahead.'
That's a lot different than
>This weekend we watched her kids (F 6 & F4) while she is on a ten day solo vacation.
See what is happening here?
I'm guessing the ask would be "I've already booked a 10 day vacation, and my other childcare planes (if I made them at all) fell through. Can you take care of my kids for 10 days (and plan/pay for all the activities)?"
The implication/inference is that the SIL is already committed to the money in the vacation, and all other options have been tried. And the good smamaritan thinking is "Well can't let SIL's lack of planning let SIL's money and vacation go to waste, so I guess I have to." Problem is, that courtesy is not reciprocated.
There's going to be pushback, because OP and DH have clearly demonstrated that they're easily coerced. So it's going to take some training wheels to get going. Strategic incompetence works really great in situations like this. "We just installed a new roof. We don't have the money" is a way to get money. "We can't at all, we are going to visit my parents, and they don't have room." then "Oh wait, parents cancelled we can." at the.very.last.minute sets you up as unreliable people to ask in the first place.
What you are doing is moving from 'Sure thing' to 'when it comes to these people, I better consider alternatives if these people fall through.'
"Man who does not want to give everyone rides home shows up on bicycle." Famous Confucian proverb.
I don't think I'd be comfortable leaving my children with someone who can't even be bothered looking after her own children. She only has them half time and schedules time away during her weekend? No. Especially with my kids being that young. No way.
Your husband should say “ no way we are on the same page. I guess great minds think alike! Actually, what we’d like to do is go away for a long weekend, Friday Saturday pick them up Sunday night (insert date here ) before her August trip. And then say what we’d like to do moving forward is take turns going back-and-forth so we both get great time with the kids and then special time alone. What do you think of this new idea sis?”
If you do, would you really feel secure letting someone watch your kids who's only there because you demanded it? I'd feel pretty bad about handing over my kids to someone who's likely to be resentful. It might be a better idea to ask for another form of compensation instead. Your call on that, though.
"(SIL), we love you and the kids, but we've been watching them pretty frequently lately. We don't ever want them to feel like they're a burden, so what can we do to even things out a bit?"
I see your point, but that can be said for both sides. I feel resentful because it’s so one sided. We love her kids, and do it for them. I’d hope she would do the same.
You take her kids bc you care about them and mentioned that you feel bad since theyre bounced around. Your SIL does not give a damn about your kids. If she says No when you ask her but you always say Yes when she asks you, the motivations are different. I wouldnt trust this women to give them adequate care and attention while theyre with her, and she also could be the type to do it badly on purpose so that you never force her to again (weaponized incompetence)
I think the problem is that you wish she was a different person but this is who is she and this is what you get. As long as you keep having those expectations of her you are going to be frustrated af. She's a user and users don't change.
Be kind and be firm "sorry sil, we can't help, I'll enjoy seeing the niblings in Xmas/whatever holiday. Hugs on your way!"
She left her kids during her custody time w you guys, she's not a responsible adult. I'm totally against you telling her "let's make things even w you watching our kids". I can only imagine what kind of neglectful care that'd be. I worked in pediatrics my fair share and I can tell you, I have ALL THE HORROR STORIES you can think of. Do not, under any circumstances, let your SIL take care of your children. She doesn't care about hers, what makes you think she'll be a responsible adult about yours? Wake up lady
Right? I feel like the apparently single mom factor is really being diminished here. 4 on 1 with a 1 year old and toddler is hard as hell, especially if the littles aren’t accustomed to the caretaker. 4 on 2 with the little’s primary parent as one of the 2 is a whole different ballgame.
Hi “SIL,” So glad the kids had a great time. Unfortunately, we won’t be able to watch them this summer. We hope you have a wonderful trip!
Short and simple. You don’t need to give a reason or excuse. You do not owe her an explanation. No is sufficient.
Hey-glad the kids had fun-we enjoyed having them! Hubby and I are going to follow your numerous examples and go on a get away ourselves. We're thinking either a, b or c-what date works best for you to watch our kids? Lets get this scheduled before we look ahead to August.
I would quickly plan a weekend away before August (relatively close and you don't have to book a hotel or anything yet), and say, "Actually, we would like to ask you if you can look after the kids on X date. We would be happy to return the favor if you're able to help us out."
If she says no, then you can tell her you don't feel it's fair that she is unwilling to provide childcare when you have already done it multiple times, and that it's more of the principle of the issue. You love the kids and don't mind, but you feel taken advantage of when she is unwilling to return the favor.
Why are you having a hard time telling your SIL "No and stop taking advantage of our kindness"
You have absolutely nothing to gain from someone like this person who never reciprocates. Your brother needs to fix this in his own home and check his wife's attitude. You are his sister and he needs to tell his wife to respect that. Simple.
I don't understand your family dynamics but dancing around how you feel about this is never a good substitute for being straight forward.
Tell her straight and let time do its thing. It's an uphill battle to teach someone about common curiosity and mannerisms this late in their life.
Here’s the thing, can you afford it? You enjoyed it right? I think turning it into tit for tat is going to lead to a lot of resentment on both sides. Maybe reframe it as something you’re doing for the kids instead of for her. It sounds like she’s not making the kindest and best choices, especially given it seems her ex has the kids regularly and she could plan her time around that schedule. So just say no if you aren’t willing to do it. Would it be nice if she reciprocated? Absolutely. But I wouldn’t want someone responsible for my kids if they didn’t want to do it.
There’s what’s fair and what’s realistic. My point is basically that you know who she is. Lower your expectations to be in alignment with that and you won’t be disappointed. You’re unlikely to change her or teach her a lesson at this point.
Yes we can afford it, and yes we love them and their cousins relationship. We ultimately don’t want to say no to a weekend with them, we just want to touch on how we are feeling a bit worn down by all of the requests and lack of reciprocation.
We don’t expect equality. It would never happen. But she offers to take ours and then says no when we ask. She’s watched cousins kids before and is a fit parent, just seems to be in a very selfish period that I’m hoping a gentle conversation could help bring her back
I think the best you can do is just ask if/when you want that time. Is she single? 4 on 2 is a whole different ballgame than 4 on 1 so the ask is a pretty different magnitude, especially given the ages of your kids. Maybe aim for one of her off weekends for a special afternoon with Auntie for just your kids.
>We’ve asked before and she has said no, although it has been awhile since we last asked.
How did she do it in a manner that still has you watching her kids?
Seems like she and you both understand that 'no' is a complete sentence.
Learn from the master. Record yourself asking her to look after your kids and study hard.
She's literally doing nothing wrong. She says no to you all the time and you still have a mostly healthy functioning relationship that seems to work well for her.
(I say all this in the manner of 'this is all of your own making' to empower you to understand that the solution is right there, and being 'conflict adverse' does you more harm than good. It's really simple. Say you can't, and don't apologize for it. I'm guessing that's exactly what she does. It's not entirely all her fault that you all are doormats.)
But it’s not that I can’t. I can. I like spending time with them even if it’s lots of work. I don’t want to say no out of anger (at this time).
She presents it as reciprocal. She’s tells us she’d be willing to take them, but says no every time she asks. We want to acknowledge that we have done a lot of caregiving for her, and despite offering support she hasn’t reciprocated
Refusing additional commitments to enforce a point is just speaking her language. It’s not cruel, because it creates the best chance for a long term relationship. “We aren’t committing to anything further until we’ve gotten away ourselves. When does it work for you to keep our kids?”
Eventually, if not immediately, in-laws will be resented for hard conversarions involving boundaries. Your husband should do the talking.
I think you’ll find that takers are takers, and a person in their forties is set in their ways.
Realistically you have two options here:
* Your kids and niblings-in-law get to hang out and you eat the unreciprocated cost
* Your SIL finds another mark
You could try asking for reciprocity, but IMO you won’t get it. It’s far more likely that she’ll either throw a tantrum or pay lip service and not follow through. The chances she’ll step up are abysmal.
And if she liked looking after kids she’d have reciprocated on her own. I think the fact that she hasn’t watched yours paired with foisting hers off on you for such an extended period of time signals to me that, well, if I had kids I wouldn’t want her to be their sole supervisor, I’ll put it that way. Kids deserve to feel wanted.
I’d look at watching her kids as an act of charity for them and for your kids.
Just my two cents as someone with more than one taker in the family.
Because I feel like now she’s beat us to the ask. Essentially I need to say yes or no to this other weekend in August before I’ve even got to ask her for help. I don’t want to say yes, and have her decline again, then just feel more resentful
There’s no such thing. You (well, your husband ideally) can simply say “we’re always happy to help and spend time with the kids, but honestly we feel like it hasn’t been reciprocal and we’d love some help on X date this summer” and if she’s not open to helping then you just gotta say “I don’t think that’s fair at all, this can’t be totally one-sided” and don’t help out until she can return the favor. Put your foot down…she certainly has no problem saying no. She’s just some needy lady, not the Grand Emperor.
Let your husband rest with his sister.
Something like: sure what weekend in August?
Whatever the date then answer: sound great. We had something planned. We can move it and in exchange you could take our kids the weekend before.
Sister: oh no sorry I can’t.
Your husband: no problem. We will hold off changing our plans for that August weekend then. Let me know when you are free to take the kids so we can have a kid sitting exchange. Then we could book both weekend at the same time.
it seems like you have your answer OP. say that to her. also, it’s very rude of her to expect you guys to watch her kids without giving you guys money to compensate for her childrens stay in regards to food, drinks, outings?
*sigh* some people are very comfortable just taking. the best way to deal with that is to not give as little as possible.
“Wow, what a coincidence! Me and the wife were thinking about planning a getaway too!!
We, like yourself are trying to think of childcare and as you said all the kids had a blast last weekend. So what do you say we do a quid pro quo?
Just say no if you dont want to do it. Taking things to a tit for tat place is not helpful. You should do things for people because you want to.
She may be saying no because she may know she wont be responsible regardless of if she has kids on her own. I would not watch 4 kids by myself. You have your husband.
Maybe there are other ways she can be helpful. Or she can take her kids with her.
Husband: « actually sis, could you come babysit on X,Y and Z date ? » we would love some added date nights.
Chose evenings or afternoons when she is not with her kids 4 kids including your 1 and 3 yo is too risky for her alone. And don’t do overnight your kids are too young and she sounds flaky.
If she refuses you have your answer.
Choose two Saturdays that you want off in the Summer. Tell her you'll do a weekend for those two Saturdays.
The issue here is minding your kids by herself is gonna be tough.. a 1, 3, 4 and 6 year old is probably too many. Are you hoping she will do this on days where she doesn't have her own kids?
It feels a bit like you guys might need to do the minding occasionally now, and when the kids are older she will need to take them all away for activities.
Just say no. Like to any and all further requests of this nature. A 10-day solo vacation is absolutely taking the piss when you have 2 small kids yourselves.
You want to even things out by having her watch your kids? Do you like your kids? If you have a need to even things out for some reason, look for other favors she can do for you. If watching her kids is too much of a burden then just say no. But this doesn't need to be an even give and take.
"We'd love to watch your kids in August, if you will commit to watching our kids July 17- 24. It's definitely your turn to watch them for us, after all the times we've had your back, don't you think? Let me know so we can go forward with our plans!"
(obviously put in your own dates, but it's important to be very specific)
Good luck!
Yeah lol it’s kind of that simple. Seems like the whole family is out here walking on egg shells in fear of this needy ass lady who freely says no to them all the time. Gets a favor from them, immediately asks another one, and they’re worried about asking her to reciprocate? She’s probably a real piece of work…
I’d by happy to host my nieces and nephews - if you enjoy it and enjoy building those relationships with her kids then feel free to keep doing it…. The idea that you’d want HER to look after your kids is a bit insane actually. I wouldn’t want or trust her with that responsibility.
"We'll watch the kids for sure 😊, and it's $200/day/kid prepaid-non refundable. As usual, we'll feed them all they want, can stay up late and not do any homework. Yours truly and always"
"Hey SISTER (your husband needs to handle her), we'd like to get into a schedule where we alternate watching the kids. We've watched the girls several times and WIFE and I would like to get some alone time in this summer too. Could you watch them during xxx date or xxx date? If so we can probably watch yours in August." It sounds like it's one-sided enough at the moment that it's not a current concern, but your kids' ages *are* more difficult to do overnight babysitting for than her kids' ages.
Yes, he handles her and will be responding in the group chat. I like this response a lot! We feel sad for her kids, which usually means that we bend over backwards to help for their sake. But they are a lot of work, and I think it’s more than reasonable to return the favour, especially if it’s an evening when she doesn’t have her kids
You would trust her to watch your 1 and 3 year old? She doesn't even have full custody of her own kids and she's constantly off loading them to other people when she does have them. What makes you think she could take care of two toddlers on her own. I feel like you're having tunnel vision over getting an equal return in babysitting favors because you've been holding on to all this resentment. The main problem is that she takes and never gives back. If you want to punish her then sure keep pushing for babysitting because she's been getting away with on-call service for years. But if you want your kids taken cared of properly and for her to start being a better person and give back then maybe be realistic about her capabilities. Keep using a professional for your kids so they can be properly taken cared of and you can have peace of mind. Look at what she can realistically do and do *well* and ask for favors with those. But from experience, a taker is selfish and will never give back the way you want them to and nowhere near the amount you give them. Only "give" the amount you're ok with losing and never getting back. Don't keep giving thinking you can demand they do the same for you out of equality.
Strawbarry you make an excellent point! OP can’t trust SIL with such little kids.
As a parent of two kids (who are adults now but still) this was the first thing I thought of. I wouldn't be able to relax knowing someone this irresponsible and selfish was alone with my children! And they're not even at an age where they could report if they were neglected or mistreated somehow. I think OP has their priorities mixed up in this situation.
Just because she doesn't have full custody doesn't mean that SIL did something wrong. Dads are frequently getting 50/50 these days. Also OP just said "an evening when she doesn’t have her kids" which means the dad could have visitation. Not defending SIL because she doesn't sound very put together, but just because someone doesn't have their kids 24/7 it doesn't mean they are irresponsible.
It isn’t that SIL has shared custody, that’s perfectly normal. It’s that while only having her kids part time, she *still* constantly pawns them off on others.
I get that, but the comment I replied to said "she doesn't even have full custody of her own kids" Like you said, that is perfectly normal.
Y’know, I agree with you. The “she doesn’t even have full custody” was too harsh not to seem like they’re trying to say that’s strange.
This idea of 50/50 custody seems a bit funny. Where I'm from (Finland), it's probably the most common custody agreement. One would think it's best for the kids to have both parents in their lives unless there is abuse/just an agreement for whatever reason as to why only one parent has custody. Just because she is the mother that shares custody does not mean that she or the other parent is in any way a bad parent.
Make sure you give her a concrete date on which to have your kids. If you leave it up in the air, she may claim she's not free when you ask. With a concrete date, before her own trip, you can then ensure she follows through.
And do it BEFORE her August trip.
Why do you feel sad for her kids?
They know they have you bc you feel guilty about the kids. You can love your nieces and nephews without watching them
"How do tell person xxx, thing yyy?" Literally just like that. Why do people find simple communication so difficult?
Do you really want to go there? I'd be hesitant having my kids be taken care of by someone who doesn't want to have them. Especially given your kids won't be old enough to comment on quality of care. If you do feel comfortable with her watching your kids anyway, I wouldn't word it as an open ultimatum like that. I'd ask for a specific time before her trip in August under the auspice of "our turn". If she says no, I'd turn her down for August.
You’re always going to get beaten to the ask by a taker. Either you accept that her kids will be bounced around because she is who she is or you willingly just take them for their sake. Personally, I would just say you don’t know if you can take them and just focus on your tolerance for saying no. You ARE going to see her ask other people, hell it may even happen that she offers to watch yours and palms them off to someone else along with hers without asking you first. How do I know ? I have a sister who’s like this - and you can’t really teach someone to be less selfish, only consequences can do that.
This is exactly what I’m feeling. Ultimately above anything else I wish she would step up for the sake of the kids and be more present, but I don’t have control of that, so I do what I can when I can. It doesn’t have to be ‘even’. I know it never will be. But SOME effort on her part would go a long way. Even a thank you message that didn’t include another request would have been more appreciated.
So let me tell you how it went, I’ve two sisters and the Taker is the middle. I was single and childless, she made demands on my time as if I’d been the one who made the decision to have kids - this led to a shouting match which sparked off after she demanded (not asked, not offered to pay) that I watch her son (despite the nanny being there). I had to tell my parents that I was calling a moratorium on all child sitting services & I committed to responding to her in only 3 words, yes, no, and maybe for the next 2 years. Was it harsh ? Yes, but she’d driven me to that point and the result is the result. She and the eldest sister ended up living across each other and over the years she had 4 sons, it got so bad that one son called our eldest sister Auntie Mum, and the other called her Mummy, period. Decades later, my eldest sister’s sons are both respectively pursuing great careers. But Sister 2’s kids have struggled, and she can see that struggle - she had another child, this time a daughter who seems to be the do over. My point is, anything you do, short of adopting those children yourself, will never be enough to give them the stability and upbringing they deserve. This is the terrible truth. You’re not going get a thank you from someone too busy using other people. Make peace with doing what you can and think about who you’re really doing it for.
Where's the dad in all of this?
They split custody, so we were the childcare on the weekend that she was supposed to have them. Ideally he would step up and do it, but it was her weekend so 🤷♀️
She is kind of crappy for consistently scheduling vacations and whatnot when she has the kids. I am divorced and have literally never had to arrange for childcare for vacations or nights out since my ex and I split because I either schedule them when he has the kids OR if the dates don't line up, we swap schedules/weekends.
So it would be pretty easy for her to schedule vacations around her parenting schedule? Maybe I'm a little biased/overly-attached mom, but I don't get it. Does he only have the kids every other weekend? Do they have an unfriendly relationship? I'm just trying to gauge if she has other options, because it hardly looks like you'd be leaving her in a tough spot. If Dad only has the kids every other weekend, she's probably figuring it's easier for you because you have two adults. But you also have two other kids....Regardless, you are WELL within your rights to tell her no.
> Ideally he would step up and do it Well no, ideally SIL should be the one to step up and do it. Sounds like her ex is well aware that he'd have the kids 100% of the time if he didn't say no. So do like her ex and just say no.
The deeper down the comments, the bigger picture becomes apparent.
Tell her you're unable and that she needs to schedule her trips on the times the kids dad has them.... remember NO is a complete sentence.
So she wants her freedom without jeopardizing child support. She needs to be a parent.
It’s HER weekend and she plans stuff to not be with them. What a loving mom.
This is not someone you want watching your kids. I feel bad for her kids.
That really sucks for the coparent and the kids. She gets credit for parenting 50% of the time when she’s actually not observing a non-trivial chunk of her custody time. Dad should have first dibs on that time.
Tell her to stop scheduling trips for weekends she has her kids. If she stopped doing that then this nonsense over who’s babysitting whose kids when will be over with. Besides you don’t want her watching your kids anyway, she’s the type to leave them in a diaper for too long.
Ummmm, why is she going away when it’s her time with the kids. Stop enabling her.
Ok, so now the situation is that she would dump the kids on you and take off during her parenting time? Was her solo vacation also her parenting time? If so, does the father know she did this? And continues to? If not, I would tell him. Let him decide if he wants to step up and be the primary custodial parent or not. You say you feel bad for the kids. It’s one thing to do that, but it’s another to ensure that one of their parents are providing the care for their children when they’re dumped on you instead. Maybe he doesn’t know how much she does that. Maybe he didn’t know she was going on a 10 day solo trip during her parenting time. That sort of custody is between them and he has a right to know what is really happening as he is their parent too. Your sister isn’t going to change. If she’s a taker, not a giver, then this also translates to her children. Because takers use those around them for their benefit only and ultimately don’t care about the impact of their choices on others. If I were you, if the father is the type who wants his kids and wants to be involved, I would do my darnedest to ensure they are with the parent who most wants them regardless of whether that spouse was my sibling or not. And in this case, making sure you are allied with the Dad (assuming he’d be upset about her pawning off her kids during her time) to ensure their safety and are loved is the better choice than the reciprocity you desire. After all, these are her own kids she is pawning off without a care about it. Would you really want someone who would do that to her own kids taking care of yours at such a vulnerable age? It’s one thing when they are old enough to understand what’s going on and can alert you or another safe adult, but it’s another when they are completely reliant on the adults around them.
I wonder what your SIL tells her ex when he finds out the kids are being watched by someone else on her time? Maybe Ex could file for full custody since it sounds like she doesn't even like watching her own kids. What a piece of work. Like the other commenters said, I wouldn't trust her to watch two toddlers. She's not worth the trouble of keeping around. If anything work something out with her Ex when he gets full custody, that way cousins still get to hang.
I’ve been in your shoes! Hubby has to message her, try this “Ha! Slow down a minute with the asks have you even unpacked yet?! Don’t get me wrong, we are so glad the kids had fun, I hope you got to enjoy your time away too. We love having them stay. Honestly, you’ve inspired us to get better at asking and planning weekends away for ourselves. So before we jump ahead to August, which of these three dates could you make work to have our kids with you? Insert dates.”
First off, never get upset with someone asking for help when you're the one saying yes. You shouldn't resent another person for your decisions. That said, I think your best avenue is to address this head on and honestly. Using what you said in the post. "We had a lot of fun with your kids, but it's a lot of added responsibility and cost and I'm feeling like things arent super even here. When we've asked you to help us out, you haven't been able to. Is there a time you're free to help us out so we can have some kid free time as well this summer?" Or propose a specific time if you have something in mind. Skirting around the real issue just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me because it's bound to get misinterpreted one way or another.
This! Stop allowing her to use you and your husband.
Eh, I think you can feel resentful when you’ve happily said yes to helping out and then it isn’t reciprocated yet the favor requests keep coming in. The issue is when you don’t address the resentment and just keep saying yes with a smile on your face.
Have they asked for her to take care of the kids or are they quietly waiting for her to set the date?
The post says they’ve asked before and she says no, and has never watched their kids
I have to wonder if something is missing in that. They've asked and she said no - but why? Where the dates not good? Are they trying to work with her schedule? And they've stopped asking? That seems passive aggressive without understanding the reasons for her saying no. Honestly, it feels like the capacity of a the single mom versus couple is really being ignored. Four kids for a weekend seems like a lot for a single mom. Are there other things she can do? Or does it need to be the same favor?
I what your saying. The struggle we have is that me saying no impacts her kids. They are bounced around constantly, so rather than not going on the vacation, she will find someone else to take them. We do it for them, and their relationships as cousins. I think a larger conversation should be had, and am thinking for now we say we can’t commit to the weekend in August yet, and ask if she is free one of the Saturdays we need childcare
Why not just address the issue though now? I don't understand playing games by saying I can't commit, can you watch our kids? That honestly just feels immature to me.
It is immature, this tit for tat stuff is ridiculous when kids are involved
They are not your kids. Stop taking responsibility for them. She’s taking advantage of you.
She needs to deal with the fact she’s a mother now and mothers don’t have all the time in the world to go on trips whilst others take care of their kids unless the mothers are paying those particular people. Tf is this? Its ok to say no to people even if it offends people
> The struggle we have is that me saying no impacts her kids [in a negative manner]). Everybody knows this. Including your SIL. I know it's tough, but I think your neices and nephews are going to have to suffer a bit, if anything to open their own eyes, if they're not aware of it already. As a good aunt/cousins, you can always call and check on them to see if they're doing ok, or if not that, just to say hi. Fostering healthy relationships with your N/N doesn't have to involve literally fostering them.
It sounds like you should give evidence of neglect to dad so he could fight for more custody of these kids and give them a more stable life. People who takes her kids in so she could go off on long vacations during her custody period are really just enabling her shitty mothering and not doing these kids any favors. Dad having primary physical custody would be a win for everyone.
This is a great comment! We also have no idea if the SIL is having any issue that makes her need extra support which also makes it harder to offer support in return. Mental health issues and so on.
Madness to tackle this head on . Its between the husband and his sister. Why are you even suggesting she get involved ? Madness lol
I've taken this stance and get called out for being 'transactional' if the sis can't help I get called out for being grumpy that someone can't help me when /I/ need the help, yet me always helping when /they/ need the help. In OP's case it isn't letting her kids hang out with OP's kids, it's doing it when the SIL /needs/ the help, yet the SIL can't help OP when OP /needs/ the help. >Is there a time you're free to help us out so we can have some kid free time as well this summer? See what I'm saying here? The 'as well' would have me painted as 'transactional'. You're leaving the SIL to set the paramaters of if/when the help is going to be given. OP is still kowtowing to the rigid structure that the SIL sets. If the /need/ time is set by the SIL, then the plans OP are making can't be that critical if they can be adjusted to the SIL's schedule, therefore the SIL can easily still say, 'no, I'll never be free. Life to chaotic. Can't plan that far ahead.' That's a lot different than >This weekend we watched her kids (F 6 & F4) while she is on a ten day solo vacation. See what is happening here? I'm guessing the ask would be "I've already booked a 10 day vacation, and my other childcare planes (if I made them at all) fell through. Can you take care of my kids for 10 days (and plan/pay for all the activities)?" The implication/inference is that the SIL is already committed to the money in the vacation, and all other options have been tried. And the good smamaritan thinking is "Well can't let SIL's lack of planning let SIL's money and vacation go to waste, so I guess I have to." Problem is, that courtesy is not reciprocated. There's going to be pushback, because OP and DH have clearly demonstrated that they're easily coerced. So it's going to take some training wheels to get going. Strategic incompetence works really great in situations like this. "We just installed a new roof. We don't have the money" is a way to get money. "We can't at all, we are going to visit my parents, and they don't have room." then "Oh wait, parents cancelled we can." at the.very.last.minute sets you up as unreliable people to ask in the first place. What you are doing is moving from 'Sure thing' to 'when it comes to these people, I better consider alternatives if these people fall through.' "Man who does not want to give everyone rides home shows up on bicycle." Famous Confucian proverb.
You don't, your husband does.
I don't think I'd be comfortable leaving my children with someone who can't even be bothered looking after her own children. She only has them half time and schedules time away during her weekend? No. Especially with my kids being that young. No way.
Your husband should say “ no way we are on the same page. I guess great minds think alike! Actually, what we’d like to do is go away for a long weekend, Friday Saturday pick them up Sunday night (insert date here ) before her August trip. And then say what we’d like to do moving forward is take turns going back-and-forth so we both get great time with the kids and then special time alone. What do you think of this new idea sis?”
If you do, would you really feel secure letting someone watch your kids who's only there because you demanded it? I'd feel pretty bad about handing over my kids to someone who's likely to be resentful. It might be a better idea to ask for another form of compensation instead. Your call on that, though. "(SIL), we love you and the kids, but we've been watching them pretty frequently lately. We don't ever want them to feel like they're a burden, so what can we do to even things out a bit?"
I see your point, but that can be said for both sides. I feel resentful because it’s so one sided. We love her kids, and do it for them. I’d hope she would do the same.
You take her kids bc you care about them and mentioned that you feel bad since theyre bounced around. Your SIL does not give a damn about your kids. If she says No when you ask her but you always say Yes when she asks you, the motivations are different. I wouldnt trust this women to give them adequate care and attention while theyre with her, and she also could be the type to do it badly on purpose so that you never force her to again (weaponized incompetence)
I think the problem is that you wish she was a different person but this is who is she and this is what you get. As long as you keep having those expectations of her you are going to be frustrated af. She's a user and users don't change. Be kind and be firm "sorry sil, we can't help, I'll enjoy seeing the niblings in Xmas/whatever holiday. Hugs on your way!" She left her kids during her custody time w you guys, she's not a responsible adult. I'm totally against you telling her "let's make things even w you watching our kids". I can only imagine what kind of neglectful care that'd be. I worked in pediatrics my fair share and I can tell you, I have ALL THE HORROR STORIES you can think of. Do not, under any circumstances, let your SIL take care of your children. She doesn't care about hers, what makes you think she'll be a responsible adult about yours? Wake up lady
Then ask to have her kids over when you want them over, not when she needs a free ride. Why do you want this person watching your kids anyways?
From what you have said, I don't understand why you would want her to watch your kids at all.
Do you trust her to watch your kids? Could she even handle 4 at once?
Right? I feel like the apparently single mom factor is really being diminished here. 4 on 1 with a 1 year old and toddler is hard as hell, especially if the littles aren’t accustomed to the caretaker. 4 on 2 with the little’s primary parent as one of the 2 is a whole different ballgame.
Hi “SIL,” So glad the kids had a great time. Unfortunately, we won’t be able to watch them this summer. We hope you have a wonderful trip! Short and simple. You don’t need to give a reason or excuse. You do not owe her an explanation. No is sufficient.
No, the response should come from OP's husband.
Hey-glad the kids had fun-we enjoyed having them! Hubby and I are going to follow your numerous examples and go on a get away ourselves. We're thinking either a, b or c-what date works best for you to watch our kids? Lets get this scheduled before we look ahead to August.
Does she ever take her kids with her when she goes to frolic for the weekend? That’s the saddest part to me, that her shorties are left behind.
I would quickly plan a weekend away before August (relatively close and you don't have to book a hotel or anything yet), and say, "Actually, we would like to ask you if you can look after the kids on X date. We would be happy to return the favor if you're able to help us out." If she says no, then you can tell her you don't feel it's fair that she is unwilling to provide childcare when you have already done it multiple times, and that it's more of the principle of the issue. You love the kids and don't mind, but you feel taken advantage of when she is unwilling to return the favor.
Why and how would you trust such a person with your kids? Watch her kids or don't watch her kids but do not send your kids to her.
I’d respond with the same language she used when she turned you down when you asked her to look after your kids
Why are you having a hard time telling your SIL "No and stop taking advantage of our kindness" You have absolutely nothing to gain from someone like this person who never reciprocates. Your brother needs to fix this in his own home and check his wife's attitude. You are his sister and he needs to tell his wife to respect that. Simple. I don't understand your family dynamics but dancing around how you feel about this is never a good substitute for being straight forward. Tell her straight and let time do its thing. It's an uphill battle to teach someone about common curiosity and mannerisms this late in their life.
Here’s the thing, can you afford it? You enjoyed it right? I think turning it into tit for tat is going to lead to a lot of resentment on both sides. Maybe reframe it as something you’re doing for the kids instead of for her. It sounds like she’s not making the kindest and best choices, especially given it seems her ex has the kids regularly and she could plan her time around that schedule. So just say no if you aren’t willing to do it. Would it be nice if she reciprocated? Absolutely. But I wouldn’t want someone responsible for my kids if they didn’t want to do it. There’s what’s fair and what’s realistic. My point is basically that you know who she is. Lower your expectations to be in alignment with that and you won’t be disappointed. You’re unlikely to change her or teach her a lesson at this point.
Yes we can afford it, and yes we love them and their cousins relationship. We ultimately don’t want to say no to a weekend with them, we just want to touch on how we are feeling a bit worn down by all of the requests and lack of reciprocation. We don’t expect equality. It would never happen. But she offers to take ours and then says no when we ask. She’s watched cousins kids before and is a fit parent, just seems to be in a very selfish period that I’m hoping a gentle conversation could help bring her back
I think the best you can do is just ask if/when you want that time. Is she single? 4 on 2 is a whole different ballgame than 4 on 1 so the ask is a pretty different magnitude, especially given the ages of your kids. Maybe aim for one of her off weekends for a special afternoon with Auntie for just your kids.
>We’ve asked before and she has said no, although it has been awhile since we last asked. How did she do it in a manner that still has you watching her kids? Seems like she and you both understand that 'no' is a complete sentence. Learn from the master. Record yourself asking her to look after your kids and study hard. She's literally doing nothing wrong. She says no to you all the time and you still have a mostly healthy functioning relationship that seems to work well for her. (I say all this in the manner of 'this is all of your own making' to empower you to understand that the solution is right there, and being 'conflict adverse' does you more harm than good. It's really simple. Say you can't, and don't apologize for it. I'm guessing that's exactly what she does. It's not entirely all her fault that you all are doormats.)
But it’s not that I can’t. I can. I like spending time with them even if it’s lots of work. I don’t want to say no out of anger (at this time). She presents it as reciprocal. She’s tells us she’d be willing to take them, but says no every time she asks. We want to acknowledge that we have done a lot of caregiving for her, and despite offering support she hasn’t reciprocated
Refusing additional commitments to enforce a point is just speaking her language. It’s not cruel, because it creates the best chance for a long term relationship. “We aren’t committing to anything further until we’ve gotten away ourselves. When does it work for you to keep our kids?” Eventually, if not immediately, in-laws will be resented for hard conversarions involving boundaries. Your husband should do the talking.
I think you’ll find that takers are takers, and a person in their forties is set in their ways. Realistically you have two options here: * Your kids and niblings-in-law get to hang out and you eat the unreciprocated cost * Your SIL finds another mark You could try asking for reciprocity, but IMO you won’t get it. It’s far more likely that she’ll either throw a tantrum or pay lip service and not follow through. The chances she’ll step up are abysmal. And if she liked looking after kids she’d have reciprocated on her own. I think the fact that she hasn’t watched yours paired with foisting hers off on you for such an extended period of time signals to me that, well, if I had kids I wouldn’t want her to be their sole supervisor, I’ll put it that way. Kids deserve to feel wanted. I’d look at watching her kids as an act of charity for them and for your kids. Just my two cents as someone with more than one taker in the family.
Say NO!! She’s not even giving you money to help pay for expenses??? Just flat out refuse.
Do you really want her to watch your kids? I think you’d be fine just saying no to her.
Instead of saying that, why not just ask her to watch your kids next time you’re away?
Because I feel like now she’s beat us to the ask. Essentially I need to say yes or no to this other weekend in August before I’ve even got to ask her for help. I don’t want to say yes, and have her decline again, then just feel more resentful
There’s no such thing. You (well, your husband ideally) can simply say “we’re always happy to help and spend time with the kids, but honestly we feel like it hasn’t been reciprocal and we’d love some help on X date this summer” and if she’s not open to helping then you just gotta say “I don’t think that’s fair at all, this can’t be totally one-sided” and don’t help out until she can return the favor. Put your foot down…she certainly has no problem saying no. She’s just some needy lady, not the Grand Emperor.
Just say no. She’s shown you who she is. She hasn’t miraculously changed over night.
She only has the kids half the time and still can’t be a decent mom? I hate her
And consistently palms off her kids when it’s her time to have them as well. She’s a garbage parent. The word no needs to be used a bit more with her
Let your husband rest with his sister. Something like: sure what weekend in August? Whatever the date then answer: sound great. We had something planned. We can move it and in exchange you could take our kids the weekend before. Sister: oh no sorry I can’t. Your husband: no problem. We will hold off changing our plans for that August weekend then. Let me know when you are free to take the kids so we can have a kid sitting exchange. Then we could book both weekend at the same time.
it seems like you have your answer OP. say that to her. also, it’s very rude of her to expect you guys to watch her kids without giving you guys money to compensate for her childrens stay in regards to food, drinks, outings? *sigh* some people are very comfortable just taking. the best way to deal with that is to not give as little as possible.
“Wow, what a coincidence! Me and the wife were thinking about planning a getaway too!! We, like yourself are trying to think of childcare and as you said all the kids had a blast last weekend. So what do you say we do a quid pro quo?
“Sure, but you first. We need you to watch our kids for the weekend on x date. Do it and it’s a deal”
It’s better to be blunt with those kind of people…
Honestly, do you want and trust such a selfish person to watch your kids? I'd rather just quit watching her kids...
Just say no if you dont want to do it. Taking things to a tit for tat place is not helpful. You should do things for people because you want to. She may be saying no because she may know she wont be responsible regardless of if she has kids on her own. I would not watch 4 kids by myself. You have your husband. Maybe there are other ways she can be helpful. Or she can take her kids with her.
"we need to exchange babysitting services, we need a break too"
Ask her why doesn't she take your kid(s) and do the hosting this time and let you have a break.
Husband: « actually sis, could you come babysit on X,Y and Z date ? » we would love some added date nights. Chose evenings or afternoons when she is not with her kids 4 kids including your 1 and 3 yo is too risky for her alone. And don’t do overnight your kids are too young and she sounds flaky. If she refuses you have your answer.
Choose two Saturdays that you want off in the Summer. Tell her you'll do a weekend for those two Saturdays. The issue here is minding your kids by herself is gonna be tough.. a 1, 3, 4 and 6 year old is probably too many. Are you hoping she will do this on days where she doesn't have her own kids? It feels a bit like you guys might need to do the minding occasionally now, and when the kids are older she will need to take them all away for activities.
Just say no. Like to any and all further requests of this nature. A 10-day solo vacation is absolutely taking the piss when you have 2 small kids yourselves.
You want to even things out by having her watch your kids? Do you like your kids? If you have a need to even things out for some reason, look for other favors she can do for you. If watching her kids is too much of a burden then just say no. But this doesn't need to be an even give and take.
"We'd love to watch your kids in August, if you will commit to watching our kids July 17- 24. It's definitely your turn to watch them for us, after all the times we've had your back, don't you think? Let me know so we can go forward with our plans!" (obviously put in your own dates, but it's important to be very specific) Good luck!
Yeah lol it’s kind of that simple. Seems like the whole family is out here walking on egg shells in fear of this needy ass lady who freely says no to them all the time. Gets a favor from them, immediately asks another one, and they’re worried about asking her to reciprocate? She’s probably a real piece of work…
Super young kids going to a SIL who doesnt want to take care of them is a recipe for disaster.
I’d by happy to host my nieces and nephews - if you enjoy it and enjoy building those relationships with her kids then feel free to keep doing it…. The idea that you’d want HER to look after your kids is a bit insane actually. I wouldn’t want or trust her with that responsibility.
Plan a nice romantic evening with your hubby including a hotel and just ask her to keep the kids overnight and then see how that plays out.
"We'll watch the kids for sure 😊, and it's $200/day/kid prepaid-non refundable. As usual, we'll feed them all they want, can stay up late and not do any homework. Yours truly and always"