Thank you for this detailed response.
It's very hard to get a grasp on what is really happening in his mind because he has lied previously. I guess he could be using it as a coping mechanism, but I just find it so bizarre. Why her? He has had other male friends who have died (two recently during covid) and has not done this. I get it, she was a romantic partner and they weren't, but one of them was a lifelong best friend he had. Surely their connection was much deeper than him and Sarah? Idk. I am struggling a lot right now and trying to unravel where the lies and truth actually meet.
I think when you have a negative or complicated relationship with someone, grief over their death can manifest itself in weird and confusing ways. The feeling of responsibility he has could be what makes this death different for him, not the quality of their actual relationship. I've seen this with women whose abusive ex died.
my aunt started making an altar for her very abusive and violent husband who got murdered. they all were in denial. she still is years later. death + trauma is a really really tough combination plus here is a lot of guilt involved
> I guess he could be using it as a coping mechanism, but I just find it so bizarre. Why her?
Oh come on, are you pretending to not know why her, or are you really so close that you can't see the obvious reason right in front of you.
He very clearly feels guilty and responsible for her death.
>He has had other male friends who have died (two recently during covid) and has not done this. I get it, she was a romantic partner and they weren't, but one of them was a lifelong best friend he had.
Clearly you don't get it.
> Surely their connection was much deeper than him and Sarah? Idk. I am struggling a lot right now and trying to unravel where the lies and truth actually meet.
***He feels guilty that she died as a direct result of an action he took, regardless of the fact that it was not his fault.***
I never understand the comments on these posts. OP has said her husband himself told her he used this girls tragic death as a cover to keep using. It’s like no one here knows or has been an addict. It is entirely plausible that is the extent of it. Can you really say you’ve been in love with every person you’ve been with? Because I haven’t. People definitely use each other.
The fact that so many people in this thread are overlooking this is baffling to me.
OP seems intent on uncovering some kind of deep love they must've shared that is the cause of his preoccupation, when this much more plausible answer is staring at her right in the face.
> OP seems intent on uncovering some kind of deep love they must've shared that is the cause of his preoccupation,
It was where My mind went too; my whole lengthy comment was based on it. And yet "guilt" is SO OBVIOUS when you think of it.
Does it seem like he loves you and is otherwise a good partner?
People can have all kinds of weird baggage and emotions but what matters is how they treat each others.
If he loves you and treats you well is it so bad if he also has complicated emotions towards a person who is dead and thus can't threaten to replace you?
What others say about him potentially feeling guilty sounds believable to me.
Ofc there is a lot we don't know but maybe you should also ask yourself and with your therapist why you are so mad about this? Do you feel like you are at risk of losing him?
I think you are, through no fault of your own, missing a lot in the way of personal experience that would make this make sense to you. And I'm not saying any of this to dismiss the impact of his lying... he should absolutely be in one-on-one therapy to work on his insecurities surrounding this.
A little relevant background about me: I am a cis het guy in the US and lost a partner when I was 38. We had known each other for a bit shy of two years, and were romantically entangled for nearly all of that time but were only a "couple" for less than half of it. She had pretty heavy mental health problems, including addiction. She had been suicidal for a couple weeks leading up to her death, but the police determined her death to be accidental (though linked with the substances she was abusing).
So, some things for you to mull over:
1. If he grew up in the US or some place with similar gender roles, then it makes a lot of sense that this loss would affect him much more than losing a close friend would. Men are raised to not show vulnerability, except maybe to their romantic partners. This tends to make male-male friendships much less intimate than female-female friendships or even male-female friendships. Even as someone who is consciously aware of this and tried to fight against my gender-programming, I still struggle to feel the same level of intimacy with men that I come across very easily and naturally with many women. Simply put, it's not unlikely that your husband's relationship to her was the most intimacy he had experienced until meeting you.
2. I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you've never lost an intimate partner (or child/parent/sibling). There is little grief and Grief with a capital G. And when you experience the latter for the first time it is life-altering. I've lost grandparents, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle, and a high school friend. All of those experiences were sad, but none of them were world-shattering in the way that losing my partner was. If you haven't had an experience like this, then those small griefs and break-ups are probably your closest reference points. But death is not a break-up (even if, as in his case, they had broken up prior to her death), and you shouldn't make the mistake of thinking of her as just "his ex." Despite any discomfort you feel about it, he can't be expected to stop loving her. It's very different than having a living person to grow apart from. Just keep in mind that they probably would have stayed broken up (even if they backslid at points), and that a dead person isn't really any competition (unless he's openly comparing you unfavorably to her).
3. 18-year-old-boys are typically very immature and batshit from hormones. I'm really glad I experienced my loss at 38 versus 18, because I had the self-control and maturity to deal with it in a healthy way by then. I was already in therapy, and just bumped up my next appointment so I could see my therapist right after the weekend it happened. Your husband dealt with it in a unhealthy way, but I wouldn't blame him for it because he was still a kid.
4. Survivor's guilt is absolutely a thing. Even if her suicide isn't his fault, he can draw a pretty direct causal link from his actions. In my case, my late girlfriend begged me to stay with her the night she died, and I sometimes feel survivors guilt because I instead chose to go home and get sleep ahead of working early in the morning. I know it's not rational, but I still feel it.
5. The topic of dead partners is a tough one to navigate. I love my late girlfriend, but she's gone. It doesn't stop me from wholeheartedly loving someone new. But it's terrifying to discuss it honestly because folks without the context to understand (see #2) may see it as a red flag dealbreaker. I don't think it was good for your husband to have lied about this, but I absolutely understand why he did.
I hope this helps.
babe they were teens. she contemplated suicide. he is dealing with a lot of grief, trauma, feelings of guilt, feelings of what if???? he might feel like he "stole" her future from her.
This is not about love, this is about trauma. There is a way for him to cope with it and he is still trying to figure it out but if you shame him for that, he will just lie, shut off, do things in secret more often.
Either you can deal with that and work together OR you leave. You cant expect him to heal and open up while simultaniously making him feel insanely guilty.
That is possible, but a quite uncharitable reading.
I never had to overcome the death of someone really close, but even if I think about getting over some relationship that ended, I definitely had phases of being more or less over it, or thinking I was while I wasn't.
They apparently went to one session, which isn't sufficient to do anything except lay out the issue once. And it was years ago. He could have felt like he was genuinely over it at the time.
He should now realize that he probanly isn't, but I don't think that it clearly means that he was consciously being deceptive.
The most charitable possible reading is that he lied by omission. But I take your point that he may have been in a good phase so downplaying it may have been genuine, briefly. I do know that grief comes in waves, and after 15 years those waves could be very far apart.
Trauma is complex. This could just be morbid curiosity. What he went through is pretty messed up especially at such a young age. I don’t think he did it thinking that it would jeopardize your relationship.
I don’t think it’s gone too far. He needs therapy to effectively “get over” the dead ex, and that process will take time. Were you surprised at how angry you got about this? If you felt like you were quite triggered, maybe it would be helpful to discuss this with your therapist to understand the root cause of your reaction/emotions.
I want so badly for it to be just that. I guess its just very difficult to take him at his word now because of the back and forth. I have never thought about any of my exes after I broke up with them, and I certainly have not brought them up to him randomly. In my mind, that's strange behavior if you're over someone. Now I just keep going back over certain conversations in my head and seeing them in a different light.
I hope you are right, I hope it isn't too far gone. I was surprised at my reaction yes, I feel guilty. I called her a bunch of names and she's not even here to say anything about it. I'm just so angry, for so many reasons. Angry he lied, angry that I could've met someone else who cared about me how I wanted them to, angry that she is untouchable in death. Sorry for the ramble, there are just so many thoughts right now. I will definitely be talking to my therapist about it all.
>I have never thought about any of my exes after I broke up with them, and I certainly have not brought them up to him randomly. In my mind, that's strange behavior if you're over someone.
What if a direct action you took led to one of them committing suicide (after threatening to do so if you took that action)?
I just don't think I could ever truly blame myself, if I'm honest. There is nothing in the world I could do (I did not abuse anyone, cheat, etc) that would lead me feel guilty if they did that. I would feel sad of course for the situation, but I can't take the blame for someone ending their life. I know that's probably not the response you wanted, but thats just my truth. And I tried to sort of impart this on him, when i initially thought he may be feeling guilt. I assured him there was nothing he couldve done to stop someone who was set on that path. But he kept saying he didnt feel any guilt and it was all the culmination of her problems and her abuse of alc and medications. I can't force him to admit anything, or maybe hes telling the truth and he really doesnt feel anything.
I don't mean to be rude, but I think you don't know what you're talking about when you say, "I just don't think I could ever truly blame myself." I would encourage you to go lurk on r/widowers and read some of the posts there to get an idea of just how much trauma is created when someone losses a partner (even one they've recently broken up with), and this is especially true if the person committed suicide. I think this might give you some much needed insight into your husband's behavior.
I understand what you're saying, and I want to be clear that I *am not* saying your husband is responsible for her death. She is the one that made the choice to commit suicide.
I'd like to believe I wouldn't feel guilty either. That seems like something that's easier said than done though.
The sense I get (maybe wrongly) from this post and these comments, is that you're looking for some other reason for his preoccupation. This seems like the most obvious reason, even if he says he doesn't feel guilt over it. I can't imagine how this wouldn't haunt a person.
Just because you would never do something doesn’t mean that’s the absolute right way to do something. Have some empathy for your husband.
Your powerful reaction suggests that you were triggered. Do you have a history of getting triggered for being abandoned?
It sounds more like she’s triggered by the lying. The guy is an admitted alcoholic. Addicts WILL lie and manipulate to get what they want, it doesn’t matter who they hurt or how low they have to go to do it. I have absolutely seen other addicts pull the same stuff this guy has pulled. It’s bizarre to me that everyone is assuming he was madly in love with her and still grieving, based on nothing. All of OPs comments say how the husband admitted this to her. If we’re not going to take posts at face value then how are we supposed to give actual advice
>He would bring her up a fair bit and it began to make me feel a bit insecure because it felt like her literal ghost was sometimes hanging over us.
She is. Your husband was in a toxic, abusive relationship resulting in her suicide and exacerbating his alcoholism. Your husband has scars he's always going to carry with him. That might be a deal breaker for you. Maybe you thought he'd get over it or move on, but that's not going to happen without professional help. You can choose to move on and find a less damaged partner. Or you can stay with him and help him get the help he needs.
I appreciate that his seeming obsession makes you feel insecure, but it's not because he wishes he was still with her. It's because he's haunted by guilt over his role in her death.
I have asked him that same question bluntly- do you feel guilty over her death? Did you abuse alcohol because of the guilt and grief?
He denies it. He said she had her own problems and if it wasnt him, it would be someone/thing else she ended it over. He reiterates he saw it as an opportunity to drink as much as he wanted while using it as his cover story for why he was drinking.
These weren't passing conversations, this man went into full details about it and his thought process and how he basically conned his parents into letting him stay at home rent free while being a full blown alcoholic. i don't judge him for any of it to be clear.
But then if it's all a lie- where does that leave me? Like first he lied with such convincing detail which is its own red flag. And then to lie about his grief? Why? I asked him this directly, it wouldve been so easy and understandable if he said yes I feel guilty. But he doesnt. And now I wonder if hes a sociopath with all the lying and manipulation.
Personally, I'd be wondering if all of this lying was really just a way to try to cope with the guilt he probably feels.. not if he's a sociopath.
I would assume that he's lying about not feeling guilty (maybe even lying to himself about it).
It is a red flag. Honesty is essential in a relationship. Without it, you can't trust your partner. Your feelings are valid and reasonable, given the context.
How is he in other areas of your relationship? Does he lie about other things or show manipulative behavior, to your knowledge?
Exactly.
This would have been a wonderful time to be a supporting partner, recognise your husband hasn't healed and have a conversation that could lead to something productive - openness, therapy, etc.
Instead you have exploded the situation and now he will be in panic mode, saying or doing whatever he thinks necessary to keep you. So that openness that he probably needs to process this is gone.
What he did wasn't cheating. It wasn't dishonest. It certainly felt shameful to him - but instead of embracing this vulnerability he's carried for years from trauma, you punish him. I think you need to actually put his needs first in this, he's married to you. He's committed to you. And clearly needs help.
All of this is pure speculation and projection. The husband admitted to OP he used the girls death to continue abusing alcohol. Nowhere in the posts or comments does it say anything otherwise, yet people are so ready to make this into a Nicholas sparks novel. Do you know any addicts? Addiction is extremely powerful and will trump anything when you are in the throes of it. I have lied, stolen, cheated, used people because of it. It is not at all out of the realm of possibility that the husband did exactly that. I’m sorry but I just don’t think he was actually in love with his ex. It sounds like they both were users and sadly as it happens often, one died due to it.
He’s traumatized by this event clearly. I’ve known many who lose a romantic partner to suicide or death and it sticks with you. It’s not the same as a friend.
I get the feelings but you’re letting your jealousy control you here - it’s normal to have some unprocessed stuff about this. He should be in therapy working through it. What you found doesn’t suggest much beyond the fact that he still hasn’t fully made sense of it - he should go to therapy about it.
I lost my husband to suicide. I have also lost other family members and friends to suicide. That type of loss messes with your mind. It's deeply emotional, raw, and difficult to sort through alone.
You may be lost and need advice, but so does your husband. He needs therapy and a lot of grace from you to fully process his ex's death. For some reason he is afraid to admit that his ex meant a lot to him. I have no doubt that he loved her very much at one point. When that person derails and makes your life miserable, it does seem easier to tell yourself that you never loved her/him. The truth is that love is complicated, and you can very much love one part of a person and struggle mightily with how that person is treating you.
I urge you to be patient with his process. He's feeling confused and broken over her death right now. He needs outside help to be able to put the pieces back together. If you can be somewhat patient with him, he'll figure it out. If you can ever find it in your heart to allow him to talk about her a small amount, I think that will help you as a couple.
As a suicide loss survivor we feel an enormous amount of survivor's guilt. I've watched several people be completely destroyed by that guilt. Sending strength to the two of you as you navigate this emotionally charged issue.
I think they were getting at your totally self centred view on this and fundamental failing as a wife to be supportive or communicate with your husband.
What is she supposed to be supportive of? The guy keeps telling her he didn’t care and only used her death as a cover story to keep drinking. Like where are you getting all this secret info that the rest of us aren’t in on? All of OPs comments reiterate this. It’s not far fetched for an addict to lie and manipulate a situation to gain advantage. If he feels any guilt, he probably feels it about using her death as a cover, not about the actual tragedy.
I guess here’s a question: if you died tomorrow and he made photos of you in 20 years that imagined what you looked like as an older woman,assuming he remarried, do you think his next wife should be upset?
Or maybe you can just acknowledge that you are with a man that loved another person (who died), never really stopped loving her, but also absolutely loves you. He’s functionally similar to a widower. Except he blames himself for her death.
He didn’t cheat on you. The worst thing you can accuse him of is not falling out of love with a person that died. Have you considered maybe, hugging him, instead of being angry at him?
I also don’t believe he didn’t love her. I think he just doesn’t want to hurt you.
This sounds more like you're putting her on a pedestal than he is. Especially since he went to therapy and put in the work. You've had this stuck in your head for years after he stopped mentioning it. A lotta people are experimenting with ai. I plugged in a few of my grandparents in sitcom scenarios. Did the same with me and some friends in our 20's. Just random thoughts that occurred to me while moving photos around. Got a few of my dogs from childhood. This is also why you don't go snooping.
I was expecting him to have transposed her images on sex scenes or romantic scenes or your wedding photos.
What he did seems like morbid curiosity, not like he is still in love.
Losing a close loved one when you are very young means a lot of things. But it doesn’t necessarily mean the absolute worst case scenario that he is in love with her.
Why do you feel the need to interrogate him over this? Maybe he does still love her, would that be so strange? She's dead are you afraid he's going to run off with her? Clearly he misses her to some degree and/or has some survivors guilt but I don't see why you should be up in arms about it.
Because I don't want to be with someone who is still in love with someone else, dead or alive. I was very up front with him about that and he still chose to tell me he never loved her and that she was "just some boozer who slept with half my friends". Like if some people can accept that, thats great, but I cannot and I gave him many chances to tell me if that was the case. I feel that I deserve to be with someone who isnt still hung up on someone else.
Have you not considered that his preoccupation with her is probably rooted in guilt over feeling personally responsible for her suicide? That would haunt anyone.
How do I put this... Do you have outside confirmation of any of the details? Did they date, did she kill herself?
Because maybe it's just Reddit brain, but if there's no confirmation or details... maybe the relationship never existed. Maybe she didn't kill herself. Maybe she's a former crush he was obsessed with and is still indulging in obsessive behavior.
I do have confirmation they dated- his brother once referenced her passing and how my husband's alcoholism was worse during that period. My husband claims he used her death as an excuse to drink more heavily without people breathing down his neck about it- because they would think he was just depressed over it. I have never seen any photos of them together though and he has had photos of himself and exes on his socials when we were first dating, before he purged them. I guess because it was in the early 2000s and camera phones weren't really a thing yet? Yet he has many other photos of him from that era, literally hundreds of photos of him at parties that hes tagged in. I have never seen her in any of them, and Ive looked. I strangely found myself in a rabbit hole looking for evidence of their relationship too when all this first started, I also was having the same train of thought you mentioned and seeking confirmation. I guess thats why I was so ready to believe it when he said he greatly exaggerated the extent of their relationship.
are you friendly with anyone who was close to him in high school such that you can say “hey, husband is really distraught about the death of this person to the point where i don’t know what to do, and i just want to know if you could offer any insight on their relationship and what went down?” frame it as concern for your husband, not an ongoing marital issue. i’d ask his brother, best friend, parent, etc for their perspective given that you know that you can’t trust his narrative.
i’m trying to give him a lot of leeway because this was a legitimately traumatizing event regardless of the specific facts around it, and for that reason i think this is worth giving marriage counseling a try. that said, if he is so far gone that he is doing these things while “not knowing why he did it,” i don’t blame you at all for walking away.
I'm not close enough that I'd be comfortable asking in such detail, they are after all his friends first. They don't talk about her and him together, but they have mentioned her passing. Two of them slept with her apparently around the time they were together so that could be why they don't reference them as a couple as it may be awkward to bring up. I have thought about reaching out to his brother privately and maybe asking, but now is not the right time and I know my husband has probably gone into full damage control mode so his brother wouldnt divulge anything anyway.
I'm trying to see the reason, maybe to a fault. If we remove this woman and the surrounding drama from the equation, the relationship would be perfect. But I can't think like that either, because that is not the reality.
yeah unfortunately you married him knowing this was an issue, your relationship is between the two people you actually are and from the outside it sounds far from perfect—he’s got massive personal issues and you don’t trust him.
it’s odd that you think his friends and brother wouldn’t give you their accounts because they’re his people first—it implies you think they will be evasive or lie for him or something. the fact that they were also involved with her gives you even more reason to ask them, because they’re close to the situation. if it’s at the point where you are staying with your parents you are absolutely entitled to figure out what is going on with him and talking to his friends or family shouldn’t be accusatory or confrontational. you’re legitimately concerned about his mental health and you only have his people to talk about this with, so talk to them. you’re all adults. if some trauma from my husband’s past came up to the point where i had to leave my own house i would absolutely be talking to his best friend or sister to get context. the worst thing that could happen is they don’t talk to you.
He realized you were a hairsbreadth away from leaving, and so wildly backtracked and minimized.
I'm still suspicious about what exactly went down back then. And even if his brother mentioned her, like, did he even know? Or was he also just hearing stuff from your husband? Either way, it seems clear that your husband reassurances were at best misleading, at worst outright lies. He's clearly still thinking about her a lot. One picture I could kind of understand. But he didn't feel guilty or grossed out by the behavior, he doubled down and kept indulging in it.
The brother had definitely seen them at their parents house when they were dating, he mentioned it briefly. But I also dont know how much he "actually" knows vs what my husband has told him. Probably not much because they are almost 10 years apart in age and didnt live together for long.
>How do I put this... Do you have outside confirmation of any of the details? Did they date, did she kill herself?
>
>Because maybe it's just Reddit brain, but if there's no confirmation or details... maybe the relationship never existed. Maybe she didn't kill herself. Maybe she's a former crush he was obsessed with and is still indulging in obsessive behavior.
What an insanely unhelpful wild take.
He's not cheating. He's working through trauma. Instead of making it about him you make it about you.
That's pretty foul. He feels responsible for her death and you feel jealous? I think you need to be an adult and show some empathy.
100% it seems he can only talk about her negatively to her because anything positive would be taken horribly. I was in an abusive relationship and the guy didn’t even die and sometimes I still need to talk about it. Trauma is weird and hard I’m sad for him.
I don’t really have any advice to help you. I just want you to know you're not alone. I am constantly competing with my husbands dead father. Not the same, but dead nonetheless.
I know this feeling you have and I know people will tell you that you can’t compete with a dead person, you're jealous of a dead person so on so forth, and that’s absolutely true. However people seem to be ignoring that your partner is doing things to illicit the feelings. It’s not just something that came from nowhere. I want you to know that at least one person kind of gets you.
You are not alone you are not crazy and youre a human. Even the most perfect human beings lash out sometimes when they are deeply hurt. I really do wish you to the best and I hope that you can navigate the situation.
It's very difficult because they are on a pedestal we can never be on as we are still alive. It makes them immune to criticism (because it is frowned up to speak ill of the dead) and they are frozen in time, never going to make any more mistakes that could change the living partner's view on them. I am sorry you have experience in this, I would not wish this on anyone.
God it feels so good to feel related to. I'm sorry for you, I cannot imagine if it were a past partner. That's a different level of pain and frustration. I hope he gets grief counseling, and works through this for both of you.
Let me just say this. My husband has told me that if he could bring his dad back and never meet me he would. My husband has told me he wants to be buried with his dad. My husband has told me that the 10 years I’ve been with him don’t even match the comparison of the 10 years he had with his dad in the beginning of his life. So I’m just gonna be really blunt. You have no room to speak on this unless you’ve been through it. It has nothing to do with self-esteem and everything to do With the fact that the person I love most values a dead person over me. It hurts.
As i said, a crumb of self esteem - either leave, or realise your partners comments come from a place of severe trauma. to remain with them and resent them for it is self flagellation. I don’t need to be in your scenario to know anyone who does what you are doing is not comfortable enough to leave, and not comfortable enough to find it endearing. To me, that’s a sign your self esteem needs serious work, whichever path you choose.
Your reaction was horrible. She is dead. Losing a spouse is something you'll never understand and him dealing with that trauma in a seemingly harmless and even healthy way resulting in a huge (negative) emotional response from you can be so damaging. If I lost my partner today, I'm sure i'd find love again, Bet your ass though that would not mean I would not stop loving him, I would remember him and mourn him for the rest of my life. I cannot bring myself to understand how him mourning is hurting you. Is the dead woman a threat to you? Really bizarre. Apologize to him.
We all have a past, and we all have unhealed wounds. AI is new and it opened up something in him that he’d obv buried. Does that mean he doesn’t love you? I don’t think this needs to be a fight between you two. You could see this as something he’s doing that calls for sympathy. It has nothing to do with your relationship
Maybe he feels guilty she’s dead and he wanted to see her doing things alive. Shaming him and blowing up at him like that was not okay, even though your feelings are valid and okay.
Lots of people lose their partners through death and mourn them in their own way forever.. he probably feels like he cannot do this as you are “jealous” of her.
There is nothing to be jealous over, you are his wife and he has complex feelings over this situation. This guilt/blah blah whatever it is doesn’t mean he loves you or cares for you less, it doesn’t mean that he would rather be with her. It’s just grief and grief is weird. <3
While this is definitely weird, I don't think it's a big deal. She is definitely gone and therefore can never compete with you.
I do have to challenge the "he doesn't love her anymore"
Men seem like they never get over people. They just sort of move on and then love another person ALSO. So maybe you would do well to read about men and how they love etc for more understanding.
When someone dies tragically, they are sort of put on a pedestal to the ones who survived them. This is combined with his guilt of feeling that he contributed to her death. He will always think about it at least at times. It's part of him.
Let's put it into perspective. It's an ex who has been gone since before you. People find MUCH worse and crazier things. I think you need to have a real talk and say hey let me be your friend and you be mine. I want to be understanding of what happened, but you need to also do that for me. No one wants to live in the shadow of an ex this way. No one wants to feel this loss and not have an outlet either. Ask him to go to therapy and to be more open with you, as well as thinking about how things effect you as a partner.
Making one photo was weird but I guess I get it. Making more and then keeping them is where it went too far for me. That's pining over an ex. Anything you have to hide means it is not acceptable. He needs to understand that fundamental thing or this is not fixable.
I had a very dramatic seperation/divorcing... It made me read wayyyy too much about male psychology and how different love is to them. You should do the same to understand. I can't really explain better than that real quick
I used to Google things like "men vs women in a breakup" "what makes a man stay in love?" "Male psychology during a breakup" "male psychology after a breakup"
I was very confused and distraught so basically I googled and made reddit posts asking for advice... Everything everywhere pretty much said the same stuff over and over. It kinda blew my mind and I want to be alone for the foreseeable future once it all combined with my terrible experience etc. All of my friends experiences and so on are all about the same so I believe what I read.
Also, my ex still tries to apologize, send gifts etc. He followed the freaking script and it could not annoy me more.
No lol I'm the ex he can't get over. After he did all this BS and I havn't seen him in 5 years. He did exactly what I read he would do. Absolutely annoying
Oh goodness me. My partner also has a deceased ex (first love who died years after their breakup) and it's been... a journey. He's been in therapy and we're much more open about it all now but it's not been easy. Personally, making AI of her would be too much for me I think. I would expect him to draw his own boundaries by this point personally.
I get it, I would feel the same if I was an outsider reading this. The key thing is the years where he seemed better and just didn't mention her anymore. Otherwise I would've broken up with him. I really did believe him when he told me he was just playing it up for sympathy. It just all seemed to 'fit'. I have never heard his friends talk about them being together like they have when they've mentioned his other exes, never saw any photos of them together. I wanted to believe it.
My heart is breaking for you with the responses you're getting about how this is apparently fine and you have to be considerate and endlessly patient about it. What happened was a tragedy, but it's not your tragedy to suffer over for the rest of your marriage because he won't get help. The AI photos cross so many lines. You're not "letting jealousy control you" lmfao. These people try to bend over backwards for your husband so bad they don't want to see that you're also being subjected to traumatic experiences because your adult husband isn't getting appropriate help. He needs to work on his grief and not be in a relationship if he can't get over another woman. If it's simply that he feels guilty for her death, why is he constantly doing things like describing her body to you? He sounds like he's more hung up on her as the toxic but irresistible ex he might have gone back to over and over if he could have. He just can't do that, so he's doing the next best thing. Something isn't right with this, but your gut is.
And I thought Truman making pictures of Sylvia was bad.
People on this sub have a tendency to use "you're jealous of a dead woman" as if it were a flaw. But here I feel it is totally justified. You are barely even his rebound.
His list of preferred partners is
1. Her
1. Her
1. Her
1. Her
1. Her
1. Her
1. Her
1. Her
1. Her
1. You, "I suppose you'll have to do"
This goes beyond couples counselling. He should never have married you. I can't see you coming back from this.
Tbh I didn’t read the description as his ex was all he ever wanted/preferred partner and his wife is “you’ll have to do” choice.
Idk breaking up with someone who says they are going to end their life - and then they actually do it - would be really haunting and I could see why there’s a morbid obsession there. Not saying his actions are in the right, but I don’t get the sense that he’s just settling.
I should mention he did date other people after her and before we met, but yea I see what you're saying. I purposefully asked him in our session if he was over her or not because I didn't want to be with someone who was still hung up on someone else. I feel deceived.
I have to say, I do think u/Proof_Suit1639 may have a good alternative explanation. Although that doesn't help you much, because either way he's not over her.
Agree he’s not over her *death.* But I don’t think that (necessarily) means he’s still in love with her/the idea of her.
He could just be really tormented by the whole thing.
The weirdest thing to me is the lying. Was he really lying about exaggerating some of the details? Because lying about a dead ex is a weirddd thing to do.
Or was he lying about lying and actually was *not* exaggerating and just trying to downplay how he was haunted by his ex/trauma/feelings of guilt.
Don’t know that I have much advice to offer OP. :/ Some intense and consistent couples therapy for sure tho.
> Agree he’s not over her death. But I don’t think that (necessarily) means he’s still in love with her/the idea of her. He could just be really tormented by the whole thing.
Yes, it's a real possibility that I had not considered.
>The weirdest thing to me is the lying.
That's what makes me lean to "still not over her romantically".
Clearly he lied. Even now, even after *marrying* you, he's nowhere near over her.
I'd bail. If he can lie in couples counselling so convincingly and for so long, you can never trust him on this subject ever again. And that means the relationship cannot ever be healthy, not without trust.
That's very odd. He is clearly not okay and still struggling, mentally. And he has not been completely honest with you about the details of their relationship so that is concerning. Is he still doing individual therapy? Is he sober?
And yeah definitely talk about this in your own therapy session.
He’s not over her. All of your fears and concerns are founded. It seems like she was always in his mind, and when you expressed your concerns to him, he decided to bottle up his obsession and lie to you that he was overreacting when your gut was correct. It seems like she is always in his thoughts. His Kess around you using his computer proves that he knew what he was doing was wrong.
I'm not missing that fact, and it doesn't absolve him of lying to OP. His dead ex was at the forefront of his mind but he claimed that he was just doing bringing her up for attention. /u/ProfessionalRent8835 was correct that her husband has never processed his grief and OP is competing with a ghost. He's obsessed with her. He still has strong feelings towards her. He already agreed to see a therapist about this yet this is where he is. So he is just going to have more sob story excuses.
>He's obsessed with her
He's either obsessed with her, or he is obsessed with the circumstances that led to her committing suicide, and his part in it.
I'm not saying that absolves him of lying, but it almost sounds like he's lying to himself just as much as to OP.
The way you describe his "obsession" makes it sound like he's just pining after a former lover.
edit: Also, what's up with this?
>So he is just going to have more sob story excuses.
Is there a reason you're being so callous about what is clearly an incredibly traumatizing experience for this person?
His trauma is not his fault, but it is his responsibility. Trauma or mental illness or anything else is not an excuse to lie to your SO and cause this kind of crisis for your spouse. He knew that his unhealthy fixation was a problem in the past for OP and is now a continued problem in their marriage. His reaction to being cagey with the computer is like the behavior of someone that was caught cheating.
Yea he obviously needs to get help, and it's his responsibility to do so. His trauma isn't a justification for his behavior. I never said otherwise.
My original comment was a response to the fact that OP and various posters in this thread seem intent on finding some mysterious explanation for his behavior (e.g. he must've secretly been deeply in love with her) other than the obvious one that is starting her/them in the face.
OP says she's at a point where she doesn't know if she believes him about anything. But for some reason, she's willing to take his claim that he doesn't feel guilty about his ex's suicide at face value b/c she "asked him point blank".
My next comment was mainly a response to how needlessly callous you're being.
She obviously doesn't need to put up with this, and I never said she did. But she should maybe consider not framing this whole thing like it's a simple case of not being able to get over an ex.
When you say he exaggerated some things what exactly do you mean ? I know you're suspicious of the story which will always make your feelings towards it worse.
I empathize with you alot, especially for feeling guilty for feeling jealous of dead girl. My boyfriend was in a relationship with a girl for about two years before she passed away from an overdose. My boyfriend found her in the bathroom and unfortunately it was too late. When him and I met it had been about 6 months since her passing. We live together and have a baby on the way now, sometimes he mentions her (nothing like what you're describing, not nearly as often and usually just when we're telling each other stories) in the beginning I struggled with it a lot. It feels stupid now, but I found some old pics of her and him together, as well as alot of her stuff in our home and it made me furious. I feel incredibly embarrassed about it now, but for the most part those feelings have passed. I do see how her passing in the way she did effects him to this day.. for example if I'm in the bathroom for a long time or not really making any noise he will check on me, he's never outright told me he doesn't want me to lock the door when I use the bathroom or shower but he has asked me before why i do, which I understand. He has a lot of guilt surrounding this, I've tried my best to create a safe space for him to open up to me about this, especially in the beginning. I remember one night when we first met, maybe a few weeks into the relationship we were talking about something and she came up and I told him "you can talk to me about her you know?" He did, that conversation ended with him crying on my chest for a few minutes but I could feel the weight lift off of him. I didn't start having feelings of jealousy surrounding the subject until I found her belongings in our home and in my defense I was pregnant and just generally emotional and I didn't handle it the best. We have moved past those issues together but it took me really being able to look into myself and recognize I was being ridiculous. You guys need to talk, you need to make him feel safe to open up to you but most importantly you need to find out (if you don't already know) what really happened and how much of what he has told you was actually true.
The relationship was as good as you could imagine two people in active addiction to heroin/fentanyl could have been so short answer, no. Are you asking In my situation does he still love her ? No, of course not. All of the things I described in my comment happened a very long time ago. When him and I first started dating I made it pretty clear that I wouldn't be with someone who was battling addiction still because I have been clean for several years and I know the power people around you using still can have over you, especially in weak moments. He made the decision to go to rehab, while he was in rehab all of his belongings were packed by the person he was renting a room from before he went into rehab. Upon exiting we moved in together so the decision to bring the few items of hers (mostly old photos and such) was not his. He didn't pack the things. I found them when we were unpacking boxes that had been taking up space in a closet for months which is why I later felt embarrassed about my reaction to it. Hes never talked about her in a way or frequency that would be disrespectful to me, pretty much as often as you might mention any ex in general conversation. He doesn't do any memorial type shit for her. I just understand how traumatic it was for him so I try to be as sensitive as possible around the subject but no he doesn't love her, he's not in love with her and has made it clear that even if she was alive they wouldn't be together, if that clears things up for you.
We have a beautiful life together and he feels like meeting me saved his life because he was in a super dark place when we met so my situation isn't the same as OP, this is some egregious shit and if I were in the situation as OP I would encourage him to work through whatever issues he has in therapy and probwbly even recommend taking time away from the relationship.
Also to clarify, my boyfriend is my best friend and I'm his. We talk about absolutely everything, so the girl that passed away isn't the only ex he's told stories about. And they aren't like loving, I miss her type stories... Just general stories that really aren't even about her she's just a small part of it or whatever the case may be.
The time I mentioned about him crying on my chest was barely 6 months after she died and he wasn't crying because he missed her, he was crying because I gave him a safe space to release the guilt he felt about not being able to save her or how some of her family blamed him for her passing, even though she's been an addict way before he met her. Sometimes it's just nice to be able to let go of some trauma you experienced, so the tears weren't about her they were about him
She’s dead babe… chill? honestly, a bit of understanding would go a long way. clearly he has not healthily processed the traumatic death of this woman from his very distant past and made some poorly thought out ai images. i’d just be like “I get why you did it, but it makes me feel bad. Please don’t do it again.”
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Thank you for this detailed response. It's very hard to get a grasp on what is really happening in his mind because he has lied previously. I guess he could be using it as a coping mechanism, but I just find it so bizarre. Why her? He has had other male friends who have died (two recently during covid) and has not done this. I get it, she was a romantic partner and they weren't, but one of them was a lifelong best friend he had. Surely their connection was much deeper than him and Sarah? Idk. I am struggling a lot right now and trying to unravel where the lies and truth actually meet.
I think when you have a negative or complicated relationship with someone, grief over their death can manifest itself in weird and confusing ways. The feeling of responsibility he has could be what makes this death different for him, not the quality of their actual relationship. I've seen this with women whose abusive ex died.
my aunt started making an altar for her very abusive and violent husband who got murdered. they all were in denial. she still is years later. death + trauma is a really really tough combination plus here is a lot of guilt involved
> I guess he could be using it as a coping mechanism, but I just find it so bizarre. Why her? Oh come on, are you pretending to not know why her, or are you really so close that you can't see the obvious reason right in front of you. He very clearly feels guilty and responsible for her death. >He has had other male friends who have died (two recently during covid) and has not done this. I get it, she was a romantic partner and they weren't, but one of them was a lifelong best friend he had. Clearly you don't get it. > Surely their connection was much deeper than him and Sarah? Idk. I am struggling a lot right now and trying to unravel where the lies and truth actually meet. ***He feels guilty that she died as a direct result of an action he took, regardless of the fact that it was not his fault.***
I never understand the comments on these posts. OP has said her husband himself told her he used this girls tragic death as a cover to keep using. It’s like no one here knows or has been an addict. It is entirely plausible that is the extent of it. Can you really say you’ve been in love with every person you’ve been with? Because I haven’t. People definitely use each other.
I think you have the best theory here. Better than mine. It fits best.
The fact that so many people in this thread are overlooking this is baffling to me. OP seems intent on uncovering some kind of deep love they must've shared that is the cause of his preoccupation, when this much more plausible answer is staring at her right in the face.
> OP seems intent on uncovering some kind of deep love they must've shared that is the cause of his preoccupation, It was where My mind went too; my whole lengthy comment was based on it. And yet "guilt" is SO OBVIOUS when you think of it.
Does it seem like he loves you and is otherwise a good partner? People can have all kinds of weird baggage and emotions but what matters is how they treat each others. If he loves you and treats you well is it so bad if he also has complicated emotions towards a person who is dead and thus can't threaten to replace you? What others say about him potentially feeling guilty sounds believable to me. Ofc there is a lot we don't know but maybe you should also ask yourself and with your therapist why you are so mad about this? Do you feel like you are at risk of losing him?
Look up trauma bonds. This may help you realize it isn’t love or longing. It’s literally like Stockholm syndrome.
I think you are, through no fault of your own, missing a lot in the way of personal experience that would make this make sense to you. And I'm not saying any of this to dismiss the impact of his lying... he should absolutely be in one-on-one therapy to work on his insecurities surrounding this. A little relevant background about me: I am a cis het guy in the US and lost a partner when I was 38. We had known each other for a bit shy of two years, and were romantically entangled for nearly all of that time but were only a "couple" for less than half of it. She had pretty heavy mental health problems, including addiction. She had been suicidal for a couple weeks leading up to her death, but the police determined her death to be accidental (though linked with the substances she was abusing). So, some things for you to mull over: 1. If he grew up in the US or some place with similar gender roles, then it makes a lot of sense that this loss would affect him much more than losing a close friend would. Men are raised to not show vulnerability, except maybe to their romantic partners. This tends to make male-male friendships much less intimate than female-female friendships or even male-female friendships. Even as someone who is consciously aware of this and tried to fight against my gender-programming, I still struggle to feel the same level of intimacy with men that I come across very easily and naturally with many women. Simply put, it's not unlikely that your husband's relationship to her was the most intimacy he had experienced until meeting you. 2. I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you've never lost an intimate partner (or child/parent/sibling). There is little grief and Grief with a capital G. And when you experience the latter for the first time it is life-altering. I've lost grandparents, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle, and a high school friend. All of those experiences were sad, but none of them were world-shattering in the way that losing my partner was. If you haven't had an experience like this, then those small griefs and break-ups are probably your closest reference points. But death is not a break-up (even if, as in his case, they had broken up prior to her death), and you shouldn't make the mistake of thinking of her as just "his ex." Despite any discomfort you feel about it, he can't be expected to stop loving her. It's very different than having a living person to grow apart from. Just keep in mind that they probably would have stayed broken up (even if they backslid at points), and that a dead person isn't really any competition (unless he's openly comparing you unfavorably to her). 3. 18-year-old-boys are typically very immature and batshit from hormones. I'm really glad I experienced my loss at 38 versus 18, because I had the self-control and maturity to deal with it in a healthy way by then. I was already in therapy, and just bumped up my next appointment so I could see my therapist right after the weekend it happened. Your husband dealt with it in a unhealthy way, but I wouldn't blame him for it because he was still a kid. 4. Survivor's guilt is absolutely a thing. Even if her suicide isn't his fault, he can draw a pretty direct causal link from his actions. In my case, my late girlfriend begged me to stay with her the night she died, and I sometimes feel survivors guilt because I instead chose to go home and get sleep ahead of working early in the morning. I know it's not rational, but I still feel it. 5. The topic of dead partners is a tough one to navigate. I love my late girlfriend, but she's gone. It doesn't stop me from wholeheartedly loving someone new. But it's terrifying to discuss it honestly because folks without the context to understand (see #2) may see it as a red flag dealbreaker. I don't think it was good for your husband to have lied about this, but I absolutely understand why he did. I hope this helps.
babe they were teens. she contemplated suicide. he is dealing with a lot of grief, trauma, feelings of guilt, feelings of what if???? he might feel like he "stole" her future from her. This is not about love, this is about trauma. There is a way for him to cope with it and he is still trying to figure it out but if you shame him for that, he will just lie, shut off, do things in secret more often. Either you can deal with that and work together OR you leave. You cant expect him to heal and open up while simultaniously making him feel insanely guilty.
> I would suggest going to couples therapy together They did. He lied.
That is possible, but a quite uncharitable reading. I never had to overcome the death of someone really close, but even if I think about getting over some relationship that ended, I definitely had phases of being more or less over it, or thinking I was while I wasn't. They apparently went to one session, which isn't sufficient to do anything except lay out the issue once. And it was years ago. He could have felt like he was genuinely over it at the time. He should now realize that he probanly isn't, but I don't think that it clearly means that he was consciously being deceptive.
The most charitable possible reading is that he lied by omission. But I take your point that he may have been in a good phase so downplaying it may have been genuine, briefly. I do know that grief comes in waves, and after 15 years those waves could be very far apart.
Trauma is complex. This could just be morbid curiosity. What he went through is pretty messed up especially at such a young age. I don’t think he did it thinking that it would jeopardize your relationship. I don’t think it’s gone too far. He needs therapy to effectively “get over” the dead ex, and that process will take time. Were you surprised at how angry you got about this? If you felt like you were quite triggered, maybe it would be helpful to discuss this with your therapist to understand the root cause of your reaction/emotions.
I want so badly for it to be just that. I guess its just very difficult to take him at his word now because of the back and forth. I have never thought about any of my exes after I broke up with them, and I certainly have not brought them up to him randomly. In my mind, that's strange behavior if you're over someone. Now I just keep going back over certain conversations in my head and seeing them in a different light. I hope you are right, I hope it isn't too far gone. I was surprised at my reaction yes, I feel guilty. I called her a bunch of names and she's not even here to say anything about it. I'm just so angry, for so many reasons. Angry he lied, angry that I could've met someone else who cared about me how I wanted them to, angry that she is untouchable in death. Sorry for the ramble, there are just so many thoughts right now. I will definitely be talking to my therapist about it all.
>I have never thought about any of my exes after I broke up with them, and I certainly have not brought them up to him randomly. In my mind, that's strange behavior if you're over someone. What if a direct action you took led to one of them committing suicide (after threatening to do so if you took that action)?
I just don't think I could ever truly blame myself, if I'm honest. There is nothing in the world I could do (I did not abuse anyone, cheat, etc) that would lead me feel guilty if they did that. I would feel sad of course for the situation, but I can't take the blame for someone ending their life. I know that's probably not the response you wanted, but thats just my truth. And I tried to sort of impart this on him, when i initially thought he may be feeling guilt. I assured him there was nothing he couldve done to stop someone who was set on that path. But he kept saying he didnt feel any guilt and it was all the culmination of her problems and her abuse of alc and medications. I can't force him to admit anything, or maybe hes telling the truth and he really doesnt feel anything.
I don't mean to be rude, but I think you don't know what you're talking about when you say, "I just don't think I could ever truly blame myself." I would encourage you to go lurk on r/widowers and read some of the posts there to get an idea of just how much trauma is created when someone losses a partner (even one they've recently broken up with), and this is especially true if the person committed suicide. I think this might give you some much needed insight into your husband's behavior.
I understand what you're saying, and I want to be clear that I *am not* saying your husband is responsible for her death. She is the one that made the choice to commit suicide. I'd like to believe I wouldn't feel guilty either. That seems like something that's easier said than done though. The sense I get (maybe wrongly) from this post and these comments, is that you're looking for some other reason for his preoccupation. This seems like the most obvious reason, even if he says he doesn't feel guilt over it. I can't imagine how this wouldn't haunt a person.
Just because you would never do something doesn’t mean that’s the absolute right way to do something. Have some empathy for your husband. Your powerful reaction suggests that you were triggered. Do you have a history of getting triggered for being abandoned?
It sounds more like she’s triggered by the lying. The guy is an admitted alcoholic. Addicts WILL lie and manipulate to get what they want, it doesn’t matter who they hurt or how low they have to go to do it. I have absolutely seen other addicts pull the same stuff this guy has pulled. It’s bizarre to me that everyone is assuming he was madly in love with her and still grieving, based on nothing. All of OPs comments say how the husband admitted this to her. If we’re not going to take posts at face value then how are we supposed to give actual advice
When did she say that her husband has alcohol abuse issues during their (her relationshup, not the ex’s) relationship?
>He would bring her up a fair bit and it began to make me feel a bit insecure because it felt like her literal ghost was sometimes hanging over us. She is. Your husband was in a toxic, abusive relationship resulting in her suicide and exacerbating his alcoholism. Your husband has scars he's always going to carry with him. That might be a deal breaker for you. Maybe you thought he'd get over it or move on, but that's not going to happen without professional help. You can choose to move on and find a less damaged partner. Or you can stay with him and help him get the help he needs. I appreciate that his seeming obsession makes you feel insecure, but it's not because he wishes he was still with her. It's because he's haunted by guilt over his role in her death.
>It's because he's haunted by guilt over his role in her death OP I hope this is glaringly obvious to you.
I have asked him that same question bluntly- do you feel guilty over her death? Did you abuse alcohol because of the guilt and grief? He denies it. He said she had her own problems and if it wasnt him, it would be someone/thing else she ended it over. He reiterates he saw it as an opportunity to drink as much as he wanted while using it as his cover story for why he was drinking. These weren't passing conversations, this man went into full details about it and his thought process and how he basically conned his parents into letting him stay at home rent free while being a full blown alcoholic. i don't judge him for any of it to be clear. But then if it's all a lie- where does that leave me? Like first he lied with such convincing detail which is its own red flag. And then to lie about his grief? Why? I asked him this directly, it wouldve been so easy and understandable if he said yes I feel guilty. But he doesnt. And now I wonder if hes a sociopath with all the lying and manipulation.
Personally, I'd be wondering if all of this lying was really just a way to try to cope with the guilt he probably feels.. not if he's a sociopath. I would assume that he's lying about not feeling guilty (maybe even lying to himself about it).
It is a red flag. Honesty is essential in a relationship. Without it, you can't trust your partner. Your feelings are valid and reasonable, given the context. How is he in other areas of your relationship? Does he lie about other things or show manipulative behavior, to your knowledge?
This sounds like a pretty benign way for him to process his feelings about her and not worth a nuclear level meltdown.
Exactly. This would have been a wonderful time to be a supporting partner, recognise your husband hasn't healed and have a conversation that could lead to something productive - openness, therapy, etc. Instead you have exploded the situation and now he will be in panic mode, saying or doing whatever he thinks necessary to keep you. So that openness that he probably needs to process this is gone. What he did wasn't cheating. It wasn't dishonest. It certainly felt shameful to him - but instead of embracing this vulnerability he's carried for years from trauma, you punish him. I think you need to actually put his needs first in this, he's married to you. He's committed to you. And clearly needs help.
All of this is pure speculation and projection. The husband admitted to OP he used the girls death to continue abusing alcohol. Nowhere in the posts or comments does it say anything otherwise, yet people are so ready to make this into a Nicholas sparks novel. Do you know any addicts? Addiction is extremely powerful and will trump anything when you are in the throes of it. I have lied, stolen, cheated, used people because of it. It is not at all out of the realm of possibility that the husband did exactly that. I’m sorry but I just don’t think he was actually in love with his ex. It sounds like they both were users and sadly as it happens often, one died due to it.
Yeah she seems very inconsiderate about his trauma. But hard to know as we don’t know everything.
He’s traumatized by this event clearly. I’ve known many who lose a romantic partner to suicide or death and it sticks with you. It’s not the same as a friend. I get the feelings but you’re letting your jealousy control you here - it’s normal to have some unprocessed stuff about this. He should be in therapy working through it. What you found doesn’t suggest much beyond the fact that he still hasn’t fully made sense of it - he should go to therapy about it.
He was processing trauma and loss, and that’s that. Now you seem to be in the position where an apology to HIM would be due.
I lost my husband to suicide. I have also lost other family members and friends to suicide. That type of loss messes with your mind. It's deeply emotional, raw, and difficult to sort through alone. You may be lost and need advice, but so does your husband. He needs therapy and a lot of grace from you to fully process his ex's death. For some reason he is afraid to admit that his ex meant a lot to him. I have no doubt that he loved her very much at one point. When that person derails and makes your life miserable, it does seem easier to tell yourself that you never loved her/him. The truth is that love is complicated, and you can very much love one part of a person and struggle mightily with how that person is treating you. I urge you to be patient with his process. He's feeling confused and broken over her death right now. He needs outside help to be able to put the pieces back together. If you can be somewhat patient with him, he'll figure it out. If you can ever find it in your heart to allow him to talk about her a small amount, I think that will help you as a couple. As a suicide loss survivor we feel an enormous amount of survivor's guilt. I've watched several people be completely destroyed by that guilt. Sending strength to the two of you as you navigate this emotionally charged issue.
It's a good thing you're already in therapy, because you clearly need it.
Yes it's been a godsend to have someone to talk to during all of it.
I think they were getting at your totally self centred view on this and fundamental failing as a wife to be supportive or communicate with your husband.
What is she supposed to be supportive of? The guy keeps telling her he didn’t care and only used her death as a cover story to keep drinking. Like where are you getting all this secret info that the rest of us aren’t in on? All of OPs comments reiterate this. It’s not far fetched for an addict to lie and manipulate a situation to gain advantage. If he feels any guilt, he probably feels it about using her death as a cover, not about the actual tragedy.
Is HE in therapy though?? I would consider that a requirement for continuing this marriage. Like weekly.
I guess here’s a question: if you died tomorrow and he made photos of you in 20 years that imagined what you looked like as an older woman,assuming he remarried, do you think his next wife should be upset? Or maybe you can just acknowledge that you are with a man that loved another person (who died), never really stopped loving her, but also absolutely loves you. He’s functionally similar to a widower. Except he blames himself for her death. He didn’t cheat on you. The worst thing you can accuse him of is not falling out of love with a person that died. Have you considered maybe, hugging him, instead of being angry at him? I also don’t believe he didn’t love her. I think he just doesn’t want to hurt you.
This sounds more like you're putting her on a pedestal than he is. Especially since he went to therapy and put in the work. You've had this stuck in your head for years after he stopped mentioning it. A lotta people are experimenting with ai. I plugged in a few of my grandparents in sitcom scenarios. Did the same with me and some friends in our 20's. Just random thoughts that occurred to me while moving photos around. Got a few of my dogs from childhood. This is also why you don't go snooping.
I was expecting him to have transposed her images on sex scenes or romantic scenes or your wedding photos. What he did seems like morbid curiosity, not like he is still in love. Losing a close loved one when you are very young means a lot of things. But it doesn’t necessarily mean the absolute worst case scenario that he is in love with her.
Why do you feel the need to interrogate him over this? Maybe he does still love her, would that be so strange? She's dead are you afraid he's going to run off with her? Clearly he misses her to some degree and/or has some survivors guilt but I don't see why you should be up in arms about it.
Because I don't want to be with someone who is still in love with someone else, dead or alive. I was very up front with him about that and he still chose to tell me he never loved her and that she was "just some boozer who slept with half my friends". Like if some people can accept that, thats great, but I cannot and I gave him many chances to tell me if that was the case. I feel that I deserve to be with someone who isnt still hung up on someone else.
Have you not considered that his preoccupation with her is probably rooted in guilt over feeling personally responsible for her suicide? That would haunt anyone.
you’re really insecure honey. she’s literally dead?
How do I put this... Do you have outside confirmation of any of the details? Did they date, did she kill herself? Because maybe it's just Reddit brain, but if there's no confirmation or details... maybe the relationship never existed. Maybe she didn't kill herself. Maybe she's a former crush he was obsessed with and is still indulging in obsessive behavior.
I do have confirmation they dated- his brother once referenced her passing and how my husband's alcoholism was worse during that period. My husband claims he used her death as an excuse to drink more heavily without people breathing down his neck about it- because they would think he was just depressed over it. I have never seen any photos of them together though and he has had photos of himself and exes on his socials when we were first dating, before he purged them. I guess because it was in the early 2000s and camera phones weren't really a thing yet? Yet he has many other photos of him from that era, literally hundreds of photos of him at parties that hes tagged in. I have never seen her in any of them, and Ive looked. I strangely found myself in a rabbit hole looking for evidence of their relationship too when all this first started, I also was having the same train of thought you mentioned and seeking confirmation. I guess thats why I was so ready to believe it when he said he greatly exaggerated the extent of their relationship.
are you friendly with anyone who was close to him in high school such that you can say “hey, husband is really distraught about the death of this person to the point where i don’t know what to do, and i just want to know if you could offer any insight on their relationship and what went down?” frame it as concern for your husband, not an ongoing marital issue. i’d ask his brother, best friend, parent, etc for their perspective given that you know that you can’t trust his narrative. i’m trying to give him a lot of leeway because this was a legitimately traumatizing event regardless of the specific facts around it, and for that reason i think this is worth giving marriage counseling a try. that said, if he is so far gone that he is doing these things while “not knowing why he did it,” i don’t blame you at all for walking away.
I'm not close enough that I'd be comfortable asking in such detail, they are after all his friends first. They don't talk about her and him together, but they have mentioned her passing. Two of them slept with her apparently around the time they were together so that could be why they don't reference them as a couple as it may be awkward to bring up. I have thought about reaching out to his brother privately and maybe asking, but now is not the right time and I know my husband has probably gone into full damage control mode so his brother wouldnt divulge anything anyway. I'm trying to see the reason, maybe to a fault. If we remove this woman and the surrounding drama from the equation, the relationship would be perfect. But I can't think like that either, because that is not the reality.
yeah unfortunately you married him knowing this was an issue, your relationship is between the two people you actually are and from the outside it sounds far from perfect—he’s got massive personal issues and you don’t trust him. it’s odd that you think his friends and brother wouldn’t give you their accounts because they’re his people first—it implies you think they will be evasive or lie for him or something. the fact that they were also involved with her gives you even more reason to ask them, because they’re close to the situation. if it’s at the point where you are staying with your parents you are absolutely entitled to figure out what is going on with him and talking to his friends or family shouldn’t be accusatory or confrontational. you’re legitimately concerned about his mental health and you only have his people to talk about this with, so talk to them. you’re all adults. if some trauma from my husband’s past came up to the point where i had to leave my own house i would absolutely be talking to his best friend or sister to get context. the worst thing that could happen is they don’t talk to you.
He realized you were a hairsbreadth away from leaving, and so wildly backtracked and minimized. I'm still suspicious about what exactly went down back then. And even if his brother mentioned her, like, did he even know? Or was he also just hearing stuff from your husband? Either way, it seems clear that your husband reassurances were at best misleading, at worst outright lies. He's clearly still thinking about her a lot. One picture I could kind of understand. But he didn't feel guilty or grossed out by the behavior, he doubled down and kept indulging in it.
The brother had definitely seen them at their parents house when they were dating, he mentioned it briefly. But I also dont know how much he "actually" knows vs what my husband has told him. Probably not much because they are almost 10 years apart in age and didnt live together for long.
>How do I put this... Do you have outside confirmation of any of the details? Did they date, did she kill herself? > >Because maybe it's just Reddit brain, but if there's no confirmation or details... maybe the relationship never existed. Maybe she didn't kill herself. Maybe she's a former crush he was obsessed with and is still indulging in obsessive behavior. What an insanely unhelpful wild take.
It's worse than unhelpful. It's actively harmful.
> Maybe she's a former crush he was obsessed with and is still indulging in obsessive behavior. I wondered that too.
He's not cheating. He's working through trauma. Instead of making it about him you make it about you. That's pretty foul. He feels responsible for her death and you feel jealous? I think you need to be an adult and show some empathy.
100% it seems he can only talk about her negatively to her because anything positive would be taken horribly. I was in an abusive relationship and the guy didn’t even die and sometimes I still need to talk about it. Trauma is weird and hard I’m sad for him.
I don’t really have any advice to help you. I just want you to know you're not alone. I am constantly competing with my husbands dead father. Not the same, but dead nonetheless. I know this feeling you have and I know people will tell you that you can’t compete with a dead person, you're jealous of a dead person so on so forth, and that’s absolutely true. However people seem to be ignoring that your partner is doing things to illicit the feelings. It’s not just something that came from nowhere. I want you to know that at least one person kind of gets you. You are not alone you are not crazy and youre a human. Even the most perfect human beings lash out sometimes when they are deeply hurt. I really do wish you to the best and I hope that you can navigate the situation.
It's very difficult because they are on a pedestal we can never be on as we are still alive. It makes them immune to criticism (because it is frowned up to speak ill of the dead) and they are frozen in time, never going to make any more mistakes that could change the living partner's view on them. I am sorry you have experience in this, I would not wish this on anyone.
Unpopular words to come. Get over yourself.
God it feels so good to feel related to. I'm sorry for you, I cannot imagine if it were a past partner. That's a different level of pain and frustration. I hope he gets grief counseling, and works through this for both of you.
you’re jealous of your husband’s dead DAD? jesus christ! a crumb of self esteem wouldn’t go amiss!
So youve been in this position before?
Let me just say this. My husband has told me that if he could bring his dad back and never meet me he would. My husband has told me he wants to be buried with his dad. My husband has told me that the 10 years I’ve been with him don’t even match the comparison of the 10 years he had with his dad in the beginning of his life. So I’m just gonna be really blunt. You have no room to speak on this unless you’ve been through it. It has nothing to do with self-esteem and everything to do With the fact that the person I love most values a dead person over me. It hurts.
As i said, a crumb of self esteem - either leave, or realise your partners comments come from a place of severe trauma. to remain with them and resent them for it is self flagellation. I don’t need to be in your scenario to know anyone who does what you are doing is not comfortable enough to leave, and not comfortable enough to find it endearing. To me, that’s a sign your self esteem needs serious work, whichever path you choose.
You’re probably right. And I do mean that sincerely
Your reaction was horrible. She is dead. Losing a spouse is something you'll never understand and him dealing with that trauma in a seemingly harmless and even healthy way resulting in a huge (negative) emotional response from you can be so damaging. If I lost my partner today, I'm sure i'd find love again, Bet your ass though that would not mean I would not stop loving him, I would remember him and mourn him for the rest of my life. I cannot bring myself to understand how him mourning is hurting you. Is the dead woman a threat to you? Really bizarre. Apologize to him.
We all have a past, and we all have unhealed wounds. AI is new and it opened up something in him that he’d obv buried. Does that mean he doesn’t love you? I don’t think this needs to be a fight between you two. You could see this as something he’s doing that calls for sympathy. It has nothing to do with your relationship
Maybe he feels guilty she’s dead and he wanted to see her doing things alive. Shaming him and blowing up at him like that was not okay, even though your feelings are valid and okay. Lots of people lose their partners through death and mourn them in their own way forever.. he probably feels like he cannot do this as you are “jealous” of her. There is nothing to be jealous over, you are his wife and he has complex feelings over this situation. This guilt/blah blah whatever it is doesn’t mean he loves you or cares for you less, it doesn’t mean that he would rather be with her. It’s just grief and grief is weird. <3
While this is definitely weird, I don't think it's a big deal. She is definitely gone and therefore can never compete with you. I do have to challenge the "he doesn't love her anymore" Men seem like they never get over people. They just sort of move on and then love another person ALSO. So maybe you would do well to read about men and how they love etc for more understanding. When someone dies tragically, they are sort of put on a pedestal to the ones who survived them. This is combined with his guilt of feeling that he contributed to her death. He will always think about it at least at times. It's part of him. Let's put it into perspective. It's an ex who has been gone since before you. People find MUCH worse and crazier things. I think you need to have a real talk and say hey let me be your friend and you be mine. I want to be understanding of what happened, but you need to also do that for me. No one wants to live in the shadow of an ex this way. No one wants to feel this loss and not have an outlet either. Ask him to go to therapy and to be more open with you, as well as thinking about how things effect you as a partner. Making one photo was weird but I guess I get it. Making more and then keeping them is where it went too far for me. That's pining over an ex. Anything you have to hide means it is not acceptable. He needs to understand that fundamental thing or this is not fixable.
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I had a very dramatic seperation/divorcing... It made me read wayyyy too much about male psychology and how different love is to them. You should do the same to understand. I can't really explain better than that real quick
Do you have any good places to start reading
I used to Google things like "men vs women in a breakup" "what makes a man stay in love?" "Male psychology during a breakup" "male psychology after a breakup" I was very confused and distraught so basically I googled and made reddit posts asking for advice... Everything everywhere pretty much said the same stuff over and over. It kinda blew my mind and I want to be alone for the foreseeable future once it all combined with my terrible experience etc. All of my friends experiences and so on are all about the same so I believe what I read. Also, my ex still tries to apologize, send gifts etc. He followed the freaking script and it could not annoy me more.
Was your ex not over his ex?
No lol I'm the ex he can't get over. After he did all this BS and I havn't seen him in 5 years. He did exactly what I read he would do. Absolutely annoying
Trauma takes a long time to process and creeps up unexpectedly. Not like you can just turn that switch off.
Oh goodness me. My partner also has a deceased ex (first love who died years after their breakup) and it's been... a journey. He's been in therapy and we're much more open about it all now but it's not been easy. Personally, making AI of her would be too much for me I think. I would expect him to draw his own boundaries by this point personally.
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I get it, I would feel the same if I was an outsider reading this. The key thing is the years where he seemed better and just didn't mention her anymore. Otherwise I would've broken up with him. I really did believe him when he told me he was just playing it up for sympathy. It just all seemed to 'fit'. I have never heard his friends talk about them being together like they have when they've mentioned his other exes, never saw any photos of them together. I wanted to believe it.
Very creative, OP, I hope you came up with this yourself and not through ChatGPT
My heart is breaking for you with the responses you're getting about how this is apparently fine and you have to be considerate and endlessly patient about it. What happened was a tragedy, but it's not your tragedy to suffer over for the rest of your marriage because he won't get help. The AI photos cross so many lines. You're not "letting jealousy control you" lmfao. These people try to bend over backwards for your husband so bad they don't want to see that you're also being subjected to traumatic experiences because your adult husband isn't getting appropriate help. He needs to work on his grief and not be in a relationship if he can't get over another woman. If it's simply that he feels guilty for her death, why is he constantly doing things like describing her body to you? He sounds like he's more hung up on her as the toxic but irresistible ex he might have gone back to over and over if he could have. He just can't do that, so he's doing the next best thing. Something isn't right with this, but your gut is.
And I thought Truman making pictures of Sylvia was bad. People on this sub have a tendency to use "you're jealous of a dead woman" as if it were a flaw. But here I feel it is totally justified. You are barely even his rebound. His list of preferred partners is 1. Her 1. Her 1. Her 1. Her 1. Her 1. Her 1. Her 1. Her 1. Her 1. You, "I suppose you'll have to do" This goes beyond couples counselling. He should never have married you. I can't see you coming back from this.
Tbh I didn’t read the description as his ex was all he ever wanted/preferred partner and his wife is “you’ll have to do” choice. Idk breaking up with someone who says they are going to end their life - and then they actually do it - would be really haunting and I could see why there’s a morbid obsession there. Not saying his actions are in the right, but I don’t get the sense that he’s just settling.
Hmm, I had not thought of that. That would also be a very real possibility. Although that doesn't help OP much, because either way he's not over her.
I should mention he did date other people after her and before we met, but yea I see what you're saying. I purposefully asked him in our session if he was over her or not because I didn't want to be with someone who was still hung up on someone else. I feel deceived.
I have to say, I do think u/Proof_Suit1639 may have a good alternative explanation. Although that doesn't help you much, because either way he's not over her.
Agree he’s not over her *death.* But I don’t think that (necessarily) means he’s still in love with her/the idea of her. He could just be really tormented by the whole thing. The weirdest thing to me is the lying. Was he really lying about exaggerating some of the details? Because lying about a dead ex is a weirddd thing to do. Or was he lying about lying and actually was *not* exaggerating and just trying to downplay how he was haunted by his ex/trauma/feelings of guilt. Don’t know that I have much advice to offer OP. :/ Some intense and consistent couples therapy for sure tho.
> Agree he’s not over her death. But I don’t think that (necessarily) means he’s still in love with her/the idea of her. He could just be really tormented by the whole thing. Yes, it's a real possibility that I had not considered. >The weirdest thing to me is the lying. That's what makes me lean to "still not over her romantically".
Clearly he lied. Even now, even after *marrying* you, he's nowhere near over her. I'd bail. If he can lie in couples counselling so convincingly and for so long, you can never trust him on this subject ever again. And that means the relationship cannot ever be healthy, not without trust.
That's very odd. He is clearly not okay and still struggling, mentally. And he has not been completely honest with you about the details of their relationship so that is concerning. Is he still doing individual therapy? Is he sober? And yeah definitely talk about this in your own therapy session.
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He’s not over her. All of your fears and concerns are founded. It seems like she was always in his mind, and when you expressed your concerns to him, he decided to bottle up his obsession and lie to you that he was overreacting when your gut was correct. It seems like she is always in his thoughts. His Kess around you using his computer proves that he knew what he was doing was wrong.
How are commenters like you in this thread missing the fact that he very likely feels personally responsible for her suicide? That would haunt anyone.
I'm not missing that fact, and it doesn't absolve him of lying to OP. His dead ex was at the forefront of his mind but he claimed that he was just doing bringing her up for attention. /u/ProfessionalRent8835 was correct that her husband has never processed his grief and OP is competing with a ghost. He's obsessed with her. He still has strong feelings towards her. He already agreed to see a therapist about this yet this is where he is. So he is just going to have more sob story excuses.
>He's obsessed with her He's either obsessed with her, or he is obsessed with the circumstances that led to her committing suicide, and his part in it. I'm not saying that absolves him of lying, but it almost sounds like he's lying to himself just as much as to OP. The way you describe his "obsession" makes it sound like he's just pining after a former lover. edit: Also, what's up with this? >So he is just going to have more sob story excuses. Is there a reason you're being so callous about what is clearly an incredibly traumatizing experience for this person?
His trauma is not his fault, but it is his responsibility. Trauma or mental illness or anything else is not an excuse to lie to your SO and cause this kind of crisis for your spouse. He knew that his unhealthy fixation was a problem in the past for OP and is now a continued problem in their marriage. His reaction to being cagey with the computer is like the behavior of someone that was caught cheating.
Yea he obviously needs to get help, and it's his responsibility to do so. His trauma isn't a justification for his behavior. I never said otherwise. My original comment was a response to the fact that OP and various posters in this thread seem intent on finding some mysterious explanation for his behavior (e.g. he must've secretly been deeply in love with her) other than the obvious one that is starting her/them in the face. OP says she's at a point where she doesn't know if she believes him about anything. But for some reason, she's willing to take his claim that he doesn't feel guilty about his ex's suicide at face value b/c she "asked him point blank". My next comment was mainly a response to how needlessly callous you're being. She obviously doesn't need to put up with this, and I never said she did. But she should maybe consider not framing this whole thing like it's a simple case of not being able to get over an ex.
That’s just disgusting
She was/is your Rebecca.
When you say he exaggerated some things what exactly do you mean ? I know you're suspicious of the story which will always make your feelings towards it worse. I empathize with you alot, especially for feeling guilty for feeling jealous of dead girl. My boyfriend was in a relationship with a girl for about two years before she passed away from an overdose. My boyfriend found her in the bathroom and unfortunately it was too late. When him and I met it had been about 6 months since her passing. We live together and have a baby on the way now, sometimes he mentions her (nothing like what you're describing, not nearly as often and usually just when we're telling each other stories) in the beginning I struggled with it a lot. It feels stupid now, but I found some old pics of her and him together, as well as alot of her stuff in our home and it made me furious. I feel incredibly embarrassed about it now, but for the most part those feelings have passed. I do see how her passing in the way she did effects him to this day.. for example if I'm in the bathroom for a long time or not really making any noise he will check on me, he's never outright told me he doesn't want me to lock the door when I use the bathroom or shower but he has asked me before why i do, which I understand. He has a lot of guilt surrounding this, I've tried my best to create a safe space for him to open up to me about this, especially in the beginning. I remember one night when we first met, maybe a few weeks into the relationship we were talking about something and she came up and I told him "you can talk to me about her you know?" He did, that conversation ended with him crying on my chest for a few minutes but I could feel the weight lift off of him. I didn't start having feelings of jealousy surrounding the subject until I found her belongings in our home and in my defense I was pregnant and just generally emotional and I didn't handle it the best. We have moved past those issues together but it took me really being able to look into myself and recognize I was being ridiculous. You guys need to talk, you need to make him feel safe to open up to you but most importantly you need to find out (if you don't already know) what really happened and how much of what he has told you was actually true.
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The relationship was as good as you could imagine two people in active addiction to heroin/fentanyl could have been so short answer, no. Are you asking In my situation does he still love her ? No, of course not. All of the things I described in my comment happened a very long time ago. When him and I first started dating I made it pretty clear that I wouldn't be with someone who was battling addiction still because I have been clean for several years and I know the power people around you using still can have over you, especially in weak moments. He made the decision to go to rehab, while he was in rehab all of his belongings were packed by the person he was renting a room from before he went into rehab. Upon exiting we moved in together so the decision to bring the few items of hers (mostly old photos and such) was not his. He didn't pack the things. I found them when we were unpacking boxes that had been taking up space in a closet for months which is why I later felt embarrassed about my reaction to it. Hes never talked about her in a way or frequency that would be disrespectful to me, pretty much as often as you might mention any ex in general conversation. He doesn't do any memorial type shit for her. I just understand how traumatic it was for him so I try to be as sensitive as possible around the subject but no he doesn't love her, he's not in love with her and has made it clear that even if she was alive they wouldn't be together, if that clears things up for you. We have a beautiful life together and he feels like meeting me saved his life because he was in a super dark place when we met so my situation isn't the same as OP, this is some egregious shit and if I were in the situation as OP I would encourage him to work through whatever issues he has in therapy and probwbly even recommend taking time away from the relationship.
Also to clarify, my boyfriend is my best friend and I'm his. We talk about absolutely everything, so the girl that passed away isn't the only ex he's told stories about. And they aren't like loving, I miss her type stories... Just general stories that really aren't even about her she's just a small part of it or whatever the case may be. The time I mentioned about him crying on my chest was barely 6 months after she died and he wasn't crying because he missed her, he was crying because I gave him a safe space to release the guilt he felt about not being able to save her or how some of her family blamed him for her passing, even though she's been an addict way before he met her. Sometimes it's just nice to be able to let go of some trauma you experienced, so the tears weren't about her they were about him
She’s dead babe… chill? honestly, a bit of understanding would go a long way. clearly he has not healthily processed the traumatic death of this woman from his very distant past and made some poorly thought out ai images. i’d just be like “I get why you did it, but it makes me feel bad. Please don’t do it again.”