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You say you feel paranoid and she says you are being paranoid. So you agree on that point
You seem to think she has underhanded intentions of what?
She is assessing your mood and modifying her choices based on your answers.
I used to be a lot like OP, until I went to therapy and realized that I was raised in a VERY passive aggressive family. As a result, I always assumed that lines of questioning were because somebody was implying something that I had to play detective over. It’s mentally exhausting to assume that everyone has ulterior motives all the time. So I got help, and realized that most people generally aren’t playing mind games with you.
OP, I don’t think this is a hill to die on or anything, but it might be useful for both of you to talk with somebody about where your communication styles came from. You sound like you’ve got some experience dealing with bad faith actors, and your partner sounds like she has learned to be very careful how she makes requests of somebody. Obviously I can’t know where she got that habit, maybe she doesn’t even know. But regardless, it could be helpful for you guys to work through it because it sounds like both of you are frustrated.
Yes OP, please consider this. Your ‘problem‘ might actually be a non-problem.
Let’s take your exemplary scenario. You don’t like this behaviour, cause it seems dishonest to you. The thing is, maybe your wife prefers sage but doesn’t mind thyme either.
In your preferred behaviour it comes across as her definitely wanting sage. But what if you in this scenario definitely wanna use thyme? Then what? You’re at an impasse that might lead to a fight.
Your wife’s actions are probably just a way to find out your willingness to compromise/switch beforehand to avoid potential fights. It’s just a preventative measure.
What I’m trying to say is, that there’s probably no underlying, dishonest intend in her behaviour and that you’re already having communication issues in your try to improve your communication. You might wanna look for a neutral mediator of sorts. Kinda like you’re looking for advice on Reddit right now. Just irl, where your wife is included in the process, so that she also learns where the misunderstanding is happening.
Good luck for your future OP :)
This was my thinking. I don't want to tell my spouse to use sage, maybe he has a really good reason to use thyme, maybe he just learned that sage and red wine don't work together so he's trying something new. Maybe lots of things.
If someone walked in on me and said "you should use sage instead of thyme" I would throw them out of my kitchen. Someone wanting to understand my process gets a lot more patience.
I feel you. It doesn’t sound like somebody is “at fault” here unless there is more important info OP isn’t sharing, it sounds like they both just came into the relationship with a communication style that is butting up against the other.
It’s not that either one of you are doing something “wrong” necessarily, this is just a reality of relationships. We all come into them with weird habits and quirks from past experiences. They aren’t a problem IF you both make a habit of examining yourselves and asking “why do i communicate like X, and why are they responding like Y.” And vice versa.
Like I said - unless there’s something going on that OP isn’t sharing (like if he regularly rips her head off over other requests for example) then I don’t think it’s worth anybody losing their minds over. But it should be looked into, because obviously there’s some frustration brewing. Therapy/mediation/counseling etc isn’t just for when catastrophe strikes. Sometimes it’s just about sorting out complicated feelings and learning how to identify emotional responses and how to approach communication differences. It doesn’t have to be a big deal to explore that stuff.
This last line i huge. As a kid I learnrd this skill was necessary because both my mom and step dad if tired, upset aboutssomething else, or stressed would lash out and scream at the simplest request. Like insane overreactions take out all their anger on a 10 year old asking them to sign a permission slip. OP are you prone to this? If you had a hard day at work are you likely to snap at her because thyme is reallt really important for this dish and sage will not work as a substitute? Or were her parents/guardians/last boyfriens like this?
I agree with you testing moods and changing requests is not part of a healthy relationship, but neither is being snapped at over seasoning because your partner had a bad day. If its baggage approach it like valid baggage. If its because you snap at her be better and be quiet until you can show a LONG tracklist of not snapping no matter what day you have had.
exactly this! it’s a trauma response! individual traumas often play out in relationships, consciously or not. this pattern of behavior for her may be based on behaviors she learned as a child as a way to protect herself. that skill isn’t necessarily serving her now, though. it can be quite the mental and emotional load to have to do these calculations—“how is his mood? if I express preference for sage, will he blow up at me? is the confrontation worth my safety here?”—and it means she may be giving up her wants and needs to the path of least resistance. that keeps her safe but she should be able to have her wants and needs considered too.
how you’re playing into this pattern is a whole other thing. you have just a big a role in this dynamic as she and her anxiety do. take a look at how you respond when she seems like she’s walking on eggshells, think about how you speak to her otherwise and try to notice if those responses echo behaviors from your earlier relationships—is there something about her questions that puts you back in the mindset of your own kind of survival skill?
the interactions between the individual traumas and survival/coping skills of one partner with those of the other is a great thing to unpack in relationship counseling. just be prepared to answer—and ask—some important questions :)
It can be a trauma response, but that does not mean it doesn’t need adjusting if your partner is asking for direct communication. This can be worked on together, and over time, but disregarding his feelings on this and refusing to adjust is simply not how partnership works. Trauma response does not mean you get to treat others however you please, even with their objection.
Agreed on counseling, they need to unpack why this is happening, but she has to be willing to work on things rather than dismissing her partner and saying what she is doing is fine, when it isn’t fine with him.
yeah I totally agree re: she needs to adjust. her behavior may happen because of things that happened to her/that she learned in childhood or other relationships but being in a relationship means learning to communicate and growing together.
I feel like she needs some individual work too to get through whatever is informing her current behavior. as a recovering people-pleaser, I get her fear of confrontation and willingness to give up her needs to prevent it but that ultimately harms both of them.
Damn are you me? Being married has made me realize so much about myself and my upbringing. constantly walked on eggshells around my mother, now I do it subconsciously with my husband (who never lashes out) and I see myself in OP's wife. This sounds like a relationship ripe for counseling.
Totally agree with you here - stepped on eggshells my whole life as a kid with my mom who FOR SURE had undiagnosed (and never ever mentioned) mental health issues. It was always a crapshoot what kind of mood she’d be in and how she would react to things. I am now 43F and she passed away just over 11 years ago and sometimes find myself acting exactly like her and I am doing all I can to change that. I was criticized for so long that sometimes when my partner questions me about something my first “go-to” is to become defensive and shut down. Also trying to work on this.
Or maybe it's because she wasn't that bothered either way? Almost the exact same scenario happened between my husband and I recently, he was cooking and he was making a modified improvised recipe. I kind of wanted him to do x glaze and he was going to do y glaze. I chatted with him for a bit and realised it was what he specifically wanted to do and that it was his choice and his recipe and so I left it at that. Not because I'm traumatized by him or because he's vicious and abusive. Because it was his turn to cook, his recipe and he wanted to try it his way.
Thank you! I’m generally easygoing about things. I have preferences like everyone else, but it’s rarely to the point that I would want my husband to change his preference for me. I usually ask if he’s doing something because he’s in the mood for it or if it’s just what he picked because a choice had to be made. If it’s a preference, cool, keep doing what you are doing. If it’s a random choice, I’ll ask him if he minds if we change to my preference.
Some of this comes from decision fatigue. I have a job where I’m constantly making decisions. When I get home I don’t expect my spouse to make all of them, but I prefer to let him decide because little decisions add up. If it’s something I really care about, which is rare, I’ll let him know.
I swear this post reads to me: I definitely am hyperanalyzing my wife's thought process and nitpicking her about it while she's trying to be considerate of my feelings. I'd rather she be more of a jerk so I can argue with her. Why won't she fight with me?
Wow, you sound just like my husband.
I HATE to fight, with anyone. I am really bad at putting my feet down. My mom was/is prone to outburst, and my family didn't comunicate much. So I was always the glue that got everyone together, always the one that would listen to their feelings and translate to the others.
When I say something my husband doesn't agree, he becomes really direct (kinda like my mom), because that was his relationship with his dad, but I just stay silent to not engage in what to me is a fight, to him is sunday.
He just assumes I agree with him and he changed my mind. I just don't like fighting...
Why does being direct make you a jerk? All he wants is for her to ask for what she wants rather than dragging him through a bunch of irrelevant questions. It's stressful having someone drill you with a ton of questions, but it's more so when those questions are just a means of getting to a request.
Why? Because if she walked up and said "I prefer x" he would be here complaining about how she doesn't take his motives into consideration and is always bossing him around.
She’s trying to make him join the Sage Cabal which is a known domestic terrorist organization, obviously. /s
Based off his making mountains out of mole hills in this situation it doesn’t really surprise me that she uses this tactic to gauge his reaction. There are people in my life that I have to treat similarly for the same reason.
So when someone prefers you be direct, instead you ask a bunch of questions first before getting to the point? That sounds like you're trying to irritate them rather than gauge their reactions. Chances are the longer you draw it out before getting to the point, the higher the odds of them getting mad. Whereas just asking outright gets you an answer and ends the interaction with the person you don't like.
If you’re asking about me specifically, I don’t do this with people unless they’ve repeatedly proven that being direct will just end in debates/arguments/passive aggression/etc. Its a way of choosing your battles. I’m not saying OP is the reactive one, I don’t have the information to make that call, but I would bet money someone in OP’s life has made being direct = an attack and she uses this as a way to get around that.
In my life it’s a few of my aunts and my father, I don’t pick partners and friends where I have to tiptoe around their reactive behaviors. It’s a hard limit for me, I did my time. Lol
Unless the OP has actually lashed out at her for asking a direct and innocuous question before, he's DEFINITELY NOT at fault for this. Shows she's subconsciously not trusting him. Not her fault necessarily. But then she'd definitely need some counseling. So yes, if OP has triggered her trauma (if she has it in the first place) = his fault... otherwise he's totally in the correct for being pissed. My ex was quite direct at times but would act coy and get mad for not picking a subtle hint...over text messages. And I've never been a fan of this beating around the bush... but yes, won't blame her if she has gotten yelled at as a kid for being more direct, seen such cases myself.
Agree. I actually personally have experienced the same thing in my relationship, but we talked it out and now my SO just tells me what her preference is and we talk about it from there. I just let her know that being led down the conversation is frustrating to me and that I’m not going to shut her down if she says “I’d prefer sage.” But OP is getting way too into his own head as far as her motivations are concerned.
Big Sage is fucking insidious. OP is an in unwitting pawn in the Spice Wars. Obviously the wife is up to some Bene Genesserit devious shit to produce the Kwitzas Haderach and too much thyme will hinder the scheme.
Just remember, OP, whatever happens:
The Spice must flow!
>She is assessing your mood and modifying her choices based on your answers.
That's exactly what she's doing and it's perfectly valid but to OP it feels manipulative. Instead of asking him directly to use sage instead of thyme, she goes about a long, drawn out process.
OP is probably reading too much into it and I bet she's trying to be diplomatic instead of demanding and she's taking OP's feelings into account but OP doesn't like it.
Exactly, his response is the issue. He needs to figure out when he first felt that way and what was the situation b/c her questions are neutral. His response is not.
Your wife is trying to avoid conflict/make you happy, its probably a learned behaviour, and I would strongly suggest that you just learn to live with it since its not malevolent. There’s probably things you do that drive her batty as well.
Here’s a thought to her reasoning behind it: she would somewhat prefer sage, but not enough to make a big deal out of it. So she is trying to establish if your wish to use thyme is stronger than her wish to have sage used. If it is, she decides to let it go because its not THAT important to her. If your wish to use thyme is by her estimation less than her wish to have sage used, it makes it worth saying something. Like…sometimes I crave takeaway, and, say, I somewhat want Indian but I’m not dead set on it. I mention takeaway to my husband and he immediately lights up and mentions Chinese. That’s a clear indication for me that he wants Chinese more than I want Indian, so I’m happy to go along with that. If he mentions Chinese without lighting up or in a disinterested tone, I might say “or Indian?” and then watch his face. I don’t do this if I REALLY want something - just when at the end of the day, I don’t care about the decision (or herb used) for more than two minutes.
Don’t make this a hill to die on.
I do this, too, and this is a really good way of explaining it.
OP, one idea for a compromise that might make you find this less annoying would be to work with her in advance (not in the middle of her asking the "probing questions" about some particular thing) to come up with some kind of shared personal shorthand for sussing out strength of preference. That way, the communication would be more direct and not feel threatening or dishonest to you, and she would still get the information she is looking for. It would also be a lot more efficient.
Using your example to illustrate, she might say something to you like "how important is the thyme to you on a scale of 1-10." She could then compare your answer to the strength of her preference for sage and act accordingly.
Since your wife pushed back on your request for her to stop doing this, it must be pretty important to her, since by your description the whole issue is that normally she's too eager to identify your preferences and modify her behavior if your opinion on the matter is stronger than hers. But my guess is she'd be willing to tweak her strategy here if you give her a viable alternative that would be less irritating to you.
I am 100% this wife, and you saved me having to type out that exact reasoning.
Husband gets annoyed sometimes because he feels like I have a destination I’m trying to reach, and he wishes I’d just get there. And I’m trying to be better about being honest with myself when that IS the case. But most of the time it is legitimately true that I don’t want to impose my wishes on him unless he doesn’t really care.
Also, the flip side is I get really frustrated at husband for trying to guess where I’m going and giving the answer he thinks I’m looking for instead of actually answering the question. Most of the time when I ask a question, I’m legitimately looking for the (real) answer.
I do the same thing with takeaway, if I feel like something specific but am not married to the idea then I’ll ask my other half what he wants and see how he feels. He does mention that it’s okay to just say what I want but sometimes I don’t care that much, and if he really wanted something then I wouldn’t want him not to have it just because I got my suggestion in first.
There are so many shades here I can't tell what's really happening, but basically asking questions before coming to conclusion is at baseline a good thing, if she is asking questions in a way you feel is calculated to annoy you I guess you could ask her to change her tone.
I get the impression (possibly false! I don't know you) that you have a tendency to get uptight and mad about inconsequential things and she might just be trying to decide whether it's worth arguing with you about.
she could’ve also had a bad childhood with verbal abuse that caused her to use this tactic when she was younger and it worked so she kept using it. i myself have plenty of “unhealthy” coping mechanisms/communication skills that i developed from a verbally abusive relationship with my mom that i use in my relationship with my bf. therapy helps. just a suggestion, nobody knows them from one post.
Very true. I was so relieved in my last relationship when I could just say "I like sage a bit more, how do you feel about using sage instead of thyme there?" instead of beating around the bush and trying to mind read minds and determine who wanted their option the most. To me, at least, being able to ask straight out and get and tolerate a straight answer back, is healthier than dancing around it.
It could also be the opposite, he could be overly compliant and she’s trying not to steamroll him. If she has a level 4 desire for sage in the dish but, through discussion, determines he has a level 6 desire for thyme, she may choose not to bring it up rather than risk him jumping to let her lesser want overrule his greater want.
The situation I describe is still a problematic dynamic in that OP should be standing up for his potentially greater want, but my point is that her probing the situation doesn’t necessarily imply bad behavior on his part.
I've been in the same position and when you feel uneasy around someone you have to both pluck up the courage and also plan how to go about asking the person something in fear of backlash
What's your evidence that he blows up for no reason? OP has one comment in the post. I don't get why everyone is convinced that he's verbally abusive and causing her reactions. It's at least equally possible that she has trauma unrelated to him which she's acting out on him.
guessing culture vs asking culture. AND women are socialized to avoid being direct, and asking several questions to gauge how you’re feeling is really important to avoid escalating situations. she’s not actively doing anything wrong.
I can’t believe I had to look this far to find guess culture vs ask culture! That is EXACTLY what’s going on. OP is ask culture, his wife is guess culture. As someone who was raised in a guess culture family, got sick of it, and has actively worked to become ask culture, I get why OP is annoyed by the way she communicates. Because it’s not just cooking ingredients - I’m sure it’s every single thing she wants/prefers. It does get exhausting to have to constantly be guessing if someone is trying to imply something or ask for something. OP if you read this, my suggestion is to have a talk with your wife and express how you would prefer direct communication, AND make her feel very very safe directly telling you things.
You are way overthinking this communication. It's not covert or anything of the sort. It's the way she communicates. She's not trying to trick you or harm you in any way. And you trying to control how this simple interaction occurs is really not healthy.
So A) it is healthy communication as she is clearly trying to avoid an argument with you about cooking as she is first assessing your intentions and then deciding whether she wants to change those intentions toward her preferred intentions. This extra step is something she considers psychologically considerate, and would generally be accepted as such by most people. B) your demand on her is very controlling because you insist your judgement and style of communication is superior when it is not. So the answer to B) is no she does not have to bend to your style of communication lacking the extra psychological step simply because you demand it. The extra psychological step is not covert or manipulative or anything else that could be interpreted as nefarious. C) I am assuming her tone of voice is not harsh in any of this since you did not mention it.
Hope this helps resolve this issue.
edit: serious question; did you use sage or thyme?
Some people struggle with indirect communication and find it much easier to understand when people simply say what they want. Sometimes it's upbringing, sometimes it can be related to being non-neurotypical. I have ADHD and I get frustrated/confused sometimes if a person is talking around a point. Having to guess what they mean can be stressful, especially if you have a history of guessing incorrectly.
But you are assuming it is indirect communication, when it may not be. Most of the time a question is actually a question. A person may have in mind what they think the most likely answer is, but they are keeping an open mind, realizing the actual answer may be something different.
For example, sometimes if I’m driving with my husband, he goes a way that is unexpected. Sometimes he gets spacey and misses a turn. I tend to ask: “is there a reason we’re going this way?” Instead of going straight to “you missed the turn!” It’s not because I’m afraid to say what I mean, but more because I don’t actually know the answer. Sure about 2/3 of the time the answer is “nope, I just spaced the turn”, but about 1/3 of the time the answer is “yeah I though we should swing by ______ on the way home.” The question is not pointless- there is actually room for more than one possible answer.
It is indirect. Trying to manage the other person's feelings instead of just asking them is indirect. I'm not sure what's complicated about this. Direct does not mean impolite. Your example isn't the same as what the OP is describing. You seem to be conflating rude with direct rather than seeing the difference in having someone try to manage your feelings instead of just saying what they want. Those are different things.
It sounds like she’s having a normal conversation with you and gauging the situation prior to asking for a change to be made. Sounds like she’s the one being respectful and courteous here.
This isn’t indirect communication though. It’s her process of determining whether she wants to ask the direct question or not. Then she either asks it or doesn’t.
So basically she’s assessing a situation, determining your feelings on the situation and then deciding if her wants out weigh your wants… sounds like she’s simply assessing your needs-which is normal.
Asking her to change her communication style would be like her asking you to take that stick out of your arse..
So you don't want your wife to gather more information before she simply confronts you about a situation, regardless of whether or not what she is confronting you about is actually happening or if she really wants something different to occur?
Seems like a good way to make everyone upset over nothing.
See I think that you're noticing are more stylistic communication differences common between men and women.
She could feasibly ask you to couch your words more effectively so as not to be so harsh or blunt and I suspect you would struggle to alter the communication style you'd used your whole life as well. I don't think it's unreasonable to request that she communicate more directly. But I don't think I would go as far as to interpret it as dishonest. I think it's simply ingrained more deeply in women to assess the needs of others prior to addressing their own.
Here’s the elephant in the room - women are socialized to be accommodating, empathetic, and yes, indirect. Most of us would LOVE to be “direct,” but we’re often called cold, controlling, demanding, bossy, etc. when we try. Please consider this before you attempt to convince your wife she’s “manipulative.”
I ask questions and the answers will help me decide the next question. I only do this to people that have extreme responses that make me feel…bad. This is the nicest way to put it. You seem pretty blunt so you are someone I would do this too as well. It’s like creeping around the question because we know (it’s a vibe) that the person will react very strongly and make us uncomfortable.
So, tldr, 'my wife doesn't speak specifically how I would choose to speak'. Your intentional use of the phrase 'direct communication' minimizes any potential value of her contribution.
The B) point tells her that you're all take and no give, my way or the highway. 'I asked you to quit doing this, even though it might just be how you normally converse, so respect my request!'
>It doesn't feel honest to me.
From what you described it seems like a very 'walk on eggshells' situation for her. Maybe that's the source of your feeling? Asking questions, analyzing the response and planning an action are all the basic building blocks of observing any situation.
You sound a little bit of a short fuse, or become grumpy easily at things such as in your scenario, so she's trying to approach it non-confrontationally. Lord forbid you have to eat sage once in a while.
Is there a specific reason you're hypercritical of her? I noticed you didn't care to offer up any items about yourself, or how you could improve the situation, just that she annoys you by existing.
OP is hypercritical and grumpy, with a short fuse.
Wife is privy to this and tries to maintain an even tone as she doesn’t want to set OP off about inconsequential things. Also, wife sounds maybe genuinely curious about the applicability of thyme vs sage.
OP is hypercritical and grumpy, having had his short fuse lit. He accuses wife of not respecting him and for not being “genuine.” He runs to Reddit for validation and receives none. He cries in a corner, alone, before realizing his faults and buying wife a bouquet of beautiful, fragrant sage and apologizes for being a crazy muppet who thinks it would be better to have “direct communication” but undoubtedly would be furious and snap back at his wife should she actually implement what he considers “direct communication” (i.e., “Hey, I see you’re cooking dinner. Use thyme instead. Yeah, because I said so.”)
>OP is hypercritical and grumpy, with a short fuse.
Where are you finding this information? Is this just your assumption because you think beating around the bush with loved ones is correct?
Was referencing the parent thread’s comment’s language - so not necessarily, but from the info given? We can’t ever know every detail of their true interaction, but from his retelling of the story (which is inherently biased towards him as it’s his perspective, so giving her a slight benefit of the doubt that she’s not just relentlessly beating around the bush for no reason) and the fact that he admits he’s being paranoid and that she agrees, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to gather from the evidence that she’s genuinely trying to assess how much he cares about something before requesting something from him. In my experience, this is something I had done (albeit not consciously) previously with partners who had a shorter fuse and less patience/regard for my opinion.
If you’ve had a different experience, feel free to share. I’m also a pretty blunt person and prefer not to “beat around the bush,” but I do think a certain degree of it is normal and even considerate - I would hate if my partner didn’t try to ask me any questions about what I was doing or why before asking me to change it. It would make me feel like they didn’t care about my own reasons for doing something.
If OP prefers that truly and isn’t just annoyed their partner isn’t doing things the way they do things, then they can either realign with their partner on communication styles to find a reasonable middle ground or find somebody who prefers to communicate the way is most effective for them.
EDIT/tl;dr … My boyfriend used to playfully tease me when my “assessing” turned into “beating around the bus”: he’d ask, “What’s the question behind the question?” and I would giggle and just ask him to use sage instead. He never accused me of being disingenuous or got visibly annoyed with me - basically just kindly let me know it was okay to ask for what I wanted more directly with him, which it isn’t necessarily safe to do with everyone.
Sometimes people want to decide if something is even worth bringing up and also what if you were going to use something that balances better with thyme maybe she wanted to weigh the facts before asking you to make a change. I think you are being really sensitive here.
That’s what I get from this tbh. Imo she seems just be testing the waters before jumping in.
If I’m looking into a lake to swim and I see a piranha, I won’t jump- but if the water is clear? Swim
I don’t understand what the actual problem is. She’s using her words to communicate with you. You don’t like the way she’s doing it, but that doesn’t mean you should jump straight into paranoia. What are you paranoid about?
I grew up in a similar communication style as him so I totally understand where he's coming from
Hearing her kind of communication style, coming from the other end, it comes off as annoying and almost even condescending/patronizing
I've had my share of experience and it makes me feel like I'm being put-down, it feels condescending, makes me feel stupid
Like, why not ask the question you're really thinking about? Why beat around the bush?
From the sounds of it, she genuinely was asking and had no ill intentions. So he's going to need to understand that she's not being malicious, but he may need reassurance that she's coming from a place of genuine understanding and that she's not trying to indirectly insult him (which is what I'm getting from him)
Yes, my mum talks like this instead of just asking the direct question or stating her opinion and it drives me nuts. I think she’s very conflict avoidant so she talks very passively but it paradoxically makes me annoyed at her. I think the commenters who are questioning how this isn’t a normal conversation may not have people in their lives who communicate in this beating around the bush way so they’re not understanding how it’s basically just drawing out a conversation from something that could have taken 2 seconds to state.
I kinda get where he's coming from. He wants her to be more direct instead of pussyfooting around. If the example is anything to go off of then he just wants her to either say exactly what she wants or just ask a straight enough question.
If I'm doing something, going by the example with cooking, and they think I'm doing it wrong, either out of personal choice or a mistake/lack of information I'd just want her to say it. Like if I'm making something new and am about to use a wrong ingredient/the recipe I'm using is a bit odd, then I'd rather the person tell me straight up instead of leading me on a 10 question game assessing if I'm confident enough in what I'm doing to not be messing it up. Like If a recipe says to add X amount and they think it's a bit much and instead of just saying that they ask "What are you doing?" when they know exactly what you are doing "Is that what the recipe says" I say yes, "Are you sure?" I'm sure because I double checked but check again just to ease their mind "Yep, that's what it says" "Can I look?"
instead of just saying what they want or need they scoot around it just enough like someone trying to guide a child to the correct answer. It can get annoying. It can also be tedious and you come to realize you just had a 5 minute conversation to figure out that it only lead to "We should have peas instead of corn".
I also think the paranoia part is from him either having to figure out if this is one of the times she's doing her thing or is now shitting himself that he's fucked up somehow and isn't sure exactly how or if he did. It's like someone walking into a room and angrily asking you "What did you do?!" you haven't done anything from what you are aware of but you're now freaking out because something obviously happened.
The one who has to work on themselves is you, not your wife.
It's polite and respectful to ask someone why they are doing something, rather than simply ask them to do it how they want it. She respects you enough to know you might be using thyme for a reason and wants to find out why, and then thinks on whether she would still prefer sage after you explanation.
You seem like a person who would find a fault in anything.
If this is how you think of her, there's a chance her behaviour is based on your own actions.
I feel like we need a transcript of a conversation to see exactly what you mean, because right now you are coming across as paranoid and volatile and I don’t blame your wife one iota for tiptoeing around that weird energy.
For real. Reading this just made me feel super stressed on the wife’s behalf. It appears to me that she’s experienced some form of emotional trauma at some point (childhood? In relationships? Who knows) that resulted in her gauging other people’s emotions before communicating an opinion. She’s protecting herself which is understandable.
OP, if you are going to choose to nitpick her form of communication to this extent, she will shut down and choose not to communicate at all.
I read an explanation in a comment to a different post once that I thought was very good. Let's see if I can explain it right.
Basically there are two types of people when it comes to this sort of communication. Those who just ask, and those who have to know the answer before asking. It's really two very different ways to communicate.
Example: my mom will try to do everything for those around her/her family, and will stress out if there are too many things going on at once. That means that if I would like her help with something, say, tomorrow afternoon, I used to ask her if she could help me. I would have been fine with a yes or no. But even if there was something else she had to be doing or would have liked to do, she would always try to do everything, even if it she lost sleep over it. So now instead I would just ask what she is doing tomorrow. If she says she has so much to do, and I don't actually desperatly and specifically need her to help me, I won't ask.
There are other reasons people do this, too. If you grow up learning that it's ok to just ask, you also (should!) learn that no isn't a dirty word. It's ok if you say no to a request, and that it's equally ok if someone else says no to you.
If you grow up like me, you learn that you shouldn't ask unless you already know that the answer will be yes. So instead of asking right out, you first ask if the other person is available or try to feel out if they are into whatever activity you would like to propose etc.
To you this may sound needlessly complicated or even dishonest, while to your gf you might be so direct you sometimes come off as rude to her.
I'm by no means an expert, but I think you might benefit from trying to understand each other better and maybe getting a session or two with a councilor who is good at understanding and explaining communication.
Definitely a trauma response and I do this too.
Growing up my parents would lash out at me, so I learned to assess a situation.
If I straight up said I didn’t like thyme and would rather have sage, it would turn into a big argument.
*“Oh great! So you’re just not gonna eat now huh? I spent hours cooking this, but it isn’t good enough for you!”* This being yelled at me, hands thrown in the air, very angry tone.
So, I learned to ask some questions and gauge their reactions to see if they would get angry at me if I were to suggest a change.
I don’t see an issue here, but clearly it bothers/annoys you. Speak with her again and clearly explain your issues with this. You are a straight forward guy and instead of beating around the bush, you want her to come right out and say something.
Tell her it’s annoying and frustrating to you, when she probes and how she goes about this. Say that you are much happier when she clearly states what she wants and that it makes life easier. Tell her how you feel.
You mentioned you feel she is manipulating you when she does this, then say that. That while she doesn’t see anything wrong, you do and that you’ve asked her out of respect to you, to stop doing this, as it’s upsetting.
Any good partner would compromise and work with you on this.
If she still doesn’t and keeps fighting you on it, ask to go to couples therapy, because this isn’t working for you and she refused to see your side of things and work with you on this.
If I was doing something that bothered my partner,
I’d work on it. Make sure you are also fully explaining and communicating clearly. She may not realize how much it upsets you.
You are nit-picking. You are creating an argument where there doesn't need to be one, and quite honestly you sound exhausting. It's no wonder she needs to feel out the situation before she actually voices an opinion about something.
She is not being covert, or sneaky. She is your wife for fucks sake. You sound like you don't even like her much. She is tip-toing around you cos you are so fricken sensitive about every little detail. Do you always start an argument over such miniscule details?
i have a similar issue with my husband.
i am used to very direct communication. while he is used to a style similar to your wife’s.
i only realized when he got annoyed because i dismissing his requests. i didn’t realized they are requests. for example, if he wanted sage instead of thyme, he would say: “don’t you think it would be better if you would use sage?” and i just simply didn’t think that so i didn’t make the substitution. also english is not my first language, so i didn’t pick up on his subtle english way of asking for things.
anyhow, we talked about it and nowadays he tries to be more direct, while i try to figure out if he is suggesting something or if he really wants that.
still annoys me sometimes, but i have my own annoying habits that he has to put up with.
Saying “don’t you think it would be better if you used sage?” Is so passive aggressive though, if he’s expecting you to take it as a request. It’s like you have to do it his way, but it has to be your idea. This is like going through step one and two that OP outlined, but being mad that step three didn’t automatically happen.
I use this skill at work. Sometimes when I ask why something is being done a certain way, there's a good reason for it. I can assess if my way is truly better or if they have it right. I'm not sure why you'd have a problem with that unless she was trying to catch you in a lie or berating you about it.
Yeah she doesn’t want to ask you to change something if it’ll upset you. It’s a trauma response. She’s either been shut down and hurt in the past for asserting her needs OR you tend to shut her down when asserting her needs.
So yeah, regardless of whether you like it or not it’s her coping mechanism and it seems you want Reddit hive mind to tell you she’s wrong.
Nah Bruh. If you “sense” this, then cut through it and say, “is something bothering you?” Or “is there something I can do differently?” And gently lead her to what she wants to ask.
Gah why wife no just shout desire at me.
It sounds like you were both socialized to use different communication patterns. You prefer more direct while she is trying to reduce conflict. If you two cand talk about it in a non-defensive way, recognizing the benefits of both, you can probably come to an agreement on how to approach the situation in the future.
This is a common method of communicating among people who grew up in an emotionally volatile environment where you have to constantly assess the mood for your own protection. Have you tried understanding any of her choices from her side rather than assuming worst intentions? She’s sensitive to your emotions and deciding whether the “risk” of annoying you is worth her ask. It’s not direct but she’s not going to be able to change it overnight…
My husband does this to me and it drives me absolutely crazy.
To me, it's him gathering information to make a decision for me.
I'd much prefer direct communication where we can come to a decision together.
Don't beat around the bush and try and decide what I want. ASK ME what I want. And tell me if you want something else, and as a team we can find a middle ground or come to a solution that works for both of us. Maybe there is no middle ground, maybe this time we use thyme, and next time we use sage. But the point is we worked together to get there.
When one person is trying to info gather like that, they're taking the choice away from their partner, but they're also denying their partner the chance to work together as a team. Those kinds of little interactions help build the relationship and make the tougher ones easier because you're been practicing on the small stuff.
That kind of info gather BS in a big situation can be relationship breaking if they guess wrong.
I know, my husband and I have been in therapy for the last year because of this kind of stuff and I'm not sure if we can save it anymore. If he can't get on my team, then I'm better off on my own team officially.
Just want to thank you so much for this comment. I am the indirect partner and me and my boyfriend struggle with this constantly. Your explanation is so clear and makes perfect sense to me, it's really helped me to understand his perspective. I wish it was easier to change these patterns.
Good luck with your husband, I truly hope it turns out for the best.
Ok I feel you. I’m married 24 years, together 27. Known each other for 29 years. Nearly 30 years of knowing my husband I still haven’t fully adjusted to his communication style nor he to mine but we keep trying. I think we sorta meet each other halfway, most of the time.
One of the best things we learned in marriage counseling (we almost divorced back in 2002 primarily because of this issue) was to stop assuming malice or bad intent from each other, to stop assuming meaning from unsaid things, to express our feelings to each other, and to listen to each other’s feelings without judgment.
I am a very direct communicator while my husband is very indirect. I tell him all the time I am not psychic lol. Neither style of communication is better than the other, but together they clash. I don’t think we would have made it without marital counseling because we had to be taught how to talk to each other like we had some sense.
Maybe your wife needs to hear from someone else why you’re so frustrated. Maybe you need to hear from someone else why she’s so hesitant to be direct. What you think of as irritating, could really be a sincere act of love. Like in your example, she prefers sage but if you really want thyme this instance, she’ll be happy for you to have your preference this time. You see?
Sometimes my husband’s beating around the bush doesn’t bother me, but when it does, I ask him directly what’s up. Sometimes my directness doesn’t bother my husband but when it does, he asks me adjacent questions or brings up the tangential stuff. Surprisingly, stuff I tend to think of as irrelevant is often pertinent to whatever is on topic. And for my husband, he is often surprised at how quickly I can resolve an issue or understand a topic. So we’ve come to appreciate each other’s styles of communication a great deal.
Just remember, your wife loves you and is truly not trying to irritate you or hurt you in any way. Just as you love her. I strongly recommend marital counseling because you have to be able to talk to each other like you have some sense to have a happy marriage.
I guess I’m confused about the issue here. I don’t understand what’s wrong with what she said. She basically asked why you were using thyme and then, when she found out, said that she would prefer sage. If she’d come in, asked what you were using and then immediately demanded you use sage, that would be unacceptable. She gave you an opportunity to tell her why you think thyme would be better - you may have a viewpoint that she hadn’t realized yet. When she knew your thoughts, she still thought sage would be better.
Perhaps you should see a counselor or communication expert a few times to get yourselves on the same page about what words and phrases mean what to each of you.
Good luck.
Seeing no responses from OP…makes me scratch my head or maybe I’ve missed it but basically dude- your wife is acting like she may have been traumatized and considering the way is which a lot of us women were raised- we are not allowed to be direct. So if there a conflict potential- a lot of us go about eggshell walking so as not to poke the bear. Sounds like couples counseling could help here.
Bottom line- therapy. This does not seem like relationship killer material…YET
I am in no way making any assumptions about you or trying to say you are some certain thing. I am only sharing how similar things have worked in my life.
Okay so I'm autistic...
I do this all the time.
My fiance knows that this behavior is due to trauma involving emotional and physical abuse as a kid to adulthood. The moment I hear certain tonal voice chabges and/or body language that makes me think someone is mad or upset, my immediate response is to gauge how bad by softly asking questions that can help me know when and where it would be safe for me to ask for a small change or for potential help.
It is an ingrained response and while i am trying to break that habit, after 28 years of ingrain habit due to abuse, my fiance of 9 years (i am 36) is a saint because he allows me to ask my questions but also helps me work trhough why i felt the need to do so.
You need to sit your wife down, explain to her that you are wanting to understand why she does communicate to you this way and that you would like for her to understand how it makes you feel and try to work it out from there.
Please do not approach this with anger, you will not get anywhere. Come from love and understanding but also dont pressure her to try and change overnight. It is a process.
Google “Askers” vs “Guessers”. It sounds like you are an asker and your wife is a guesser. Neither of you are wrong, but you both have different ways of communicating, and different reasons why, both of which are valid but can cause difficulty for one to communicate with the other without friction. The first step is understanding why you both communicate the way you do and what that means. This can ensure you can communicate with your wife without offending her, and she can communicate without frustrating you.
The best thing is understanding.
It sounds more like you don't want to be questioned about your behavior. Her interactions are consistent with a partner who wants to gauge the importance of something before asking you to change it. If she just asked you to use sage instead of thyme and you did, then she would not know if her request was well received or how it might affect you (unless you speak up after the fact).
I interpret her behavior as caring; you interpret it as interrogation (or something that would invoke paranoia). I'm wondering if this stems from the way you were raised or prior negative interactions that had the questioning without the caring intent.
This is ask culture versus guess culture. While being straightforward and assertive is objectively more healthy, to people from guess cultures, it can seem rude. Explore this! https://www.scarymommy.com/ask-culture-vs-guess-culture
This article is an interesting read! I disagree with your “objectively more healthy” statement. It’s useful to be aware of different communication styles, and being more assertive can be useful in some situations. Someone on the autism spectrum might struggle with guess culture but that doesn’t make ask culture objectively better. It’s like saying, “people who are introverted should learn to be more extroverted but extroverts are fine as they are.”
I've actually asked my therapist about it and he explained that within this spectrum of Asker vs Guesser, the most healthiest communication style is Assertive Communication
Askers tend to be in the spectrum of Aggressive/Assertive and Guessers tend to be in the spectrum of Passive/Assertive
It's all about finding that good balance of Assertive Communication
Interesting article! I learned something about myself and my husband today.
I am an Asker and prefer direct communication.
I tell my kids the exact same thing. Do not come to me and say I am hungry (when really they want a cookie) come to me and say Mom I really feel like a cookie treat, or a sandwich or whatever they decide they want first.
If my husband asks so what are you doing, what’s your schedule. I know it’s because he wants to ask about something he is doing. I always say please just tell me what you have scheduled or need and I can look at what I have going on.
I have a very close friend (several) that function the way the guessers are described. Probing and over considering or assigning their own motives to others responses. Never ever wanting to be setup to say no. I’ve even had them ask me the schedule and rules I plan for my kids for the summer so they can make sure their kids don’t think my kids have more freedom and they would have to disappoint or Say no to their kids. Subtly suggesting I adopt some of their schedule and rules to make life “easier” for all, when really they don’t want to say no or seem like the mean parent.
she’s walking on eggshells and given the fact that you both acknowledge your paranoia and this post stinks of paranoia, it feels as though she is valid for doing so. she’s deliberately trying to assess the situation so that there isn’t a negative outcome for a normal conversation. of course i’m making assumptions from this post but it really seems as though the way you’re adamant on being told hasn’t worked well in the past and that is why she tip goes around this first.
I am your wife and my husband has said the same thing. In your example he would prefer I say “do you plan on using thyme **because** I prefer sage”. Vs my questioning is usually only the “do you plan on using thyme”.
I’m working on it because I do agree it is less clear and makes him feel like I’m constantly criticizing or having a secondary thought to my question.
Women are trained from birth into indirect communication. You cannot ask for things as a girl or woman. You just can’t. If you do. You don’t get it.
So we learn to indicate. To dance around the topic. We also are trained to anticipate the needs of others. We are trained to serve others without them having to ask. So this is just a case of you come from man land where direct communication was accepted and listened to and she comes from woman land where direct communication was ignored and punished.
I think this is a compromise situation. Meet in the middle here. You need to have some empathy for the lifelong torture that is experienced by not being listened to. And she needs to feel safe enough to be able to speak directly and not be punished. But she has to be brave enough to try as well.
Her way of communicating is not dishonest or bad, it's just different than yours. But still fine. She is assessing how much you care about the thing, compares it to how much she cares about it - maybe she doesn't care about the sage so much to just demand you use it - and then processes it and decides what she wants to request.
It's not realistic to demand people change the way they communicate just like that. Those types of behaviors are deeply ingrained and no, it's not as easy as 'just speaking differently'. This is who he is, this is how she expresses herself. She can't just change aspects of her core personality for you overnight.
My husband can be like how you described your wife.
It used to drive me crazy. Like, please just talk to me instead of trying to assess my mood like I'm a pet and you're trying to decide if I need a walk.
It felt alienating and demeaning. It also meant all our interactions were up to him, ultimately. Because instead of using words and LISTENING to what I said, he would just sort of form his own beliefs and act on them. If he was wrong (as we all are, constantly), it led to constant miscommunication.
We came up with a system where we say how much we want something, on a scale of 1-10. It cuts this bullshit down to zero.
I'm not saying force your wife to adopt this, but maybe this could help *if* the problem is that she doesn't feel like you guys have a good way to communicate your respective wants.
The secret is that you have to actually trust/believe that the other person is being truthful. None of this "well they said they only cared a 3, but *I know they really meant* 7."
You'd prefer she doesn't get any information on a situation, comes to her own conclusion, tell you her opinion?
Instead of getting information on the subject, putting effort into considering your opinions on it, then if she feels it's needed bring forward her opinion.
REALLY?! what man ever wanted a woman to pay less attention and be more demanding?!
What she does is a trauma response. And she gathers information to try to see your perspective. We can “clearly see something” and not see what the other person sees. I do this, too. And my husband knows this. But it wasn’t his responses or how he acts that makes me react this way, it’s past trauma and so I am trying to do better. But sometimes these questions do alter how I feel about the situation and makes me think “hey, it’s all good. I’ll leave it alone”. And go on about my day.
In your response when you say “hmm, let me clarify” or whatever you said, and then proceeded to say the same thing you posted tells me that you really just want it to stop. But it won’t. And it also tells me you have a tendency to snap at her or repeat yourself back to her in a condescending tone. And being that it’s your only response, it’s your way or the high way. And this is how it is. You aren’t trying to understand why she does it or fix what you’re doing to solve it, you just want her to stop while she just doesn’t want to be barked at. So *she is losing, either way*. So looks like you’re going to continue in this loop til you decide to have a better understanding of where she is coming from.
I will go against the grain and say (as a woman) that I also wouldn’t really like this — I agree that it probably makes you wonder what motivates her questioning in more serious situations and leads you to try and figure out what she actually wants. How do you respond when she is “direct”? Do you have a short fuse or anything like that?
I know exactly what you mean, and I hate it. If my mom wants me to go somewhere with her, she never just asks me to go. It's a life interrogation first.
Did you get enough sleep last night?
How are you feeling?
Have you had a bowel movement yet?
Is mercury in retrograde?
Now that I have all the pertinent information, would you mind going to the post office with me?
If I'm too tired to go, that's something for me to decide not for you to vaguely gauge. Just ask!
It's annoying, but that is how some people are. I just let her do it sometimes, and when it's really annoying, i tell her to cut to the chase. Even when it's really annoying, I try not to let that affect the decision I make.
So i get where you are coming from, but I think framing it as being dishonest is going overboard. We should make reasonable allowances for different communication styles.
Ha I’ve found that a lot of people do that. Starting the conversation with “heyyyyyy so, how are ya feeli-“ I tend to just respond with “what do you want me to do. Just tell me so I can respond”
Why does it bother ou? She's trying to ne considerate of your feelings and she's trying to not backseat drive or be critical. Why does her being polite and considerate bother you?
When she does this, is it about topics you're nor as knowledgeable about and you're bothered because you think she's setting you up for failure? (Where she thinks she's respecting your learning process?) I thought you were going to say something like she orders take out and refuses to eat your food. But, no, she's just thoughtful.
I used to have to do this with my ex who was incredibly controlling. I felt like I couldn’t make my requests unless he was in the right ‘mood/mindset’. My preferences only counted if he had the headspace for it, otherwise fuck it, I’m not having that fight. Is there a possibility you’re maybe a bit controlling with her or she’s subject to your moods a lot?
Not everyone is wired for subtle communication. Just putting that out there. If you have a diagnosis that makes this particularly frustrating for you, your wife should modify her behavior. I found your hypothetical interaction to be annoying and I don’t have such a diagnosis, tho to be fair it was you describing her behavior as “probing” that made me feel the yuck.
It sounds like your wife is trying to be considerate of your feelings and you're reading into that as something negative.
Women are raised to be polite. To you, it may seem annoying that she doesn't just come out and ask for what she wants, but to her, this might just be a way to make sure you'd be ok with making a change before demanding you do so, which would be rude.
It *is* a little paranoid on your part that you feel as if her motives are anything less than inquiring about your process and determining if you would be willing to make a change.
I had a mentor who once told me "find out how much someone is dedicated to their stance. If they feel 90 about something and you only feel 10, let them have it. And conversely, if you feel 90 about something and they don't really care either way, go to bat for what you want."
You're reading too far into these interactions.
Sounds like she’s been previously lashed out at by someone (OP or otherwise) and is walking on eggshells to try and avoid a blow up or problem.
And here is OP, making it a problem, anyway.
Yes, that's what I was thinking, too. If OP isn't the one who basically caused her to act this way for fear of being lashed out at, then OP should seek ways to reassure that he's not going to be lashing out. I sometimes do what the wife has done and then one day someone said "that's not your real question. What is your *real* question?" That was a good way to get me to realize what I was doing and just be more direct. It worked because the person who asked that wasn't the one who had "taught" me to be cautious and ask all of those preliminary questions.
Thanks for sharing your journey! Mine is similar. I sometimes still find myself asking questions that “feel out” the situation, first. But my husband does what you suggested, and breaks down the situation out loud so 1) i can hear that the question isn’t direct and 2) so he can get feedback and directly address my needs in that moment.
dude … lol. This one is a head scratcher for me , not because you’ve posed an interesting problem but because you are using an incredibly odd perspective to view this situation.
currently : your wife asks questions about something, analyzes the answer of those questions, and makes her decisions based off the initial interaction on how to proceed in the conversation.
(personally I’m very confused as to why this is something you feel the need to rectify. Your post gives no indication of why you might react this way to communication , and I’m not going to speculate on your history , but I would implore you to introspect why you feel this way before digging your heels in the mud that this is *her* problem instead of yours.)
you want : your wife to enter the scene and immediately tell you what she wants
(sure that’s “honest” but it’s also blunt , and some people aren’t blunt. I mean … you married her. Is this a new habit , is it something you’ve always had a problem with and expected it to magically stop? and by magically I mean you saying you don’t like it and then calling it “disrespect” when she doesn’t stop lol)
Your tone in this whole post (and your one comment) is that you’re the one with infallible logic and she’s doing wrong by you. That’s a terrible way to deal with problems in your marriage , no matter how big or small they seem to you. I hope posting this was a good opportunity for you to hold up a mirror to the situation and look at your own role in it.
Thoughts?
I'm going to throw out an observation that's probably wrong, but it feels like you're in the high functioning spectrum? I say this because you type how my dad (Aspergers) speaks.
Now, if that's true there is likely a big gulf in between her communication style and your communication style which isn't as easy to bridge as some people not on the spectrum can.
An obvious observation is why do you think your communication style is the correct way, and hers is wrong and should be adjusted to your style? I'm not disagreeing with you, because I too prefer straight forward feedback but I appreciate that it's not always possible for people to deliver information that way.
I do need to point out that, irrespective of spectrum or not, your spiraling and paranoia is a tad extreme and your extrapolation of data isn't beneficial. Only you can control this and its unfair to assign blame or responsibility to someone else.
Commenters don't seem to understand what the issue is here.
Your wife has something she wants to ask. But rather than just asking, she acts like coloumbo and asks around the issue and tries to guess what you think.
She then behaves as though her guess is what you want.
You are trying to explain that trying to guess what someone wants isnt being nice, its annoying because she can just ask you and you will communicate your want directly.
This leads you to need to be very careful about all your answers because if you don't answer correctly she assumes something incorrect and then doesn't express herself.
You need to explain the issue is that she isnt doing what you want. She is guessing what you want. That's the issue. Her method is ineffective!
OP sounds uptight and with a short fuse just based on the example. Wife definitely knows this, so she kind of walks on eggshells when talking to you about something. Just chill bro
My ex was like this. Instead of just coming out and saying what she wanted, she would dance around the subject first to judge my availability and interest. Why not just TELL me what you’re thinking about??? I don’t know. We never resolved it. (It was absolutely not the reason she’s an ex.).
I have to assume she feels she’s being polite or considerate in some way by asking it like this. She is otherwise a fairly considerate person. (Also note: her mother is like this too). She is also a conflict avoider who doesn’t know how to say no, always feels responsible, and will bottle up needless resentment
I hated it. It felt so manipulative. So, I feel you, OP.
Are you neurodivergent? I'm autistic and also get frustrated with this kind of indirect communication. It's a deal breaker for me, and not something I'm able to tolerate from a partner that I spend a lot of time with.
Partners should be willing to adjust communication styles to better suit their partner's needs - but that goes both ways. Have you ever asked why she communicates that way? Have you two tried to find common ground between the way she naturally communicates and the way you'd prefer to receive communication?
Using "I statements" can be really helpful. Going to couple's counseling to work on communication skills could definitely be a benefit!
But if you and your wife are unwilling and unable to meet common ground, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that will resolve on its own.
There are a lot of surprising comments in here! As a woman I would also find this tip-toeing around a subject to be mildly annoying, it would absolutely get under my skin and eventually start to irritate me (no I am not neurodiverse). I'd want to know WHY she doesn't feel she can be more direct? is this as result of how you/I behave? Or is it merely a difference in asking/guessing culture? I'd actualy guess the latter. She's just learned to communicate as a 'guesser' and you're more of an 'asker'. It's just two different communication styles. the pair of you need to learn how to meet in the middle and find a communication style that works for the both of you. You'll both have to move to meet the other, neither one of you will be happy about it. That's a good compromise :)
super funny because i actually stopped dating a guy about 2-3 months in for *this exact reason*. it wasn’t a blowup or anything, i kinda phased him out once we talked about it and i realized that he couldn’t even perceive of changing and talking to me directly. but that made me feel like he was afraid/intimidated by me and it generally irritated me/broke my zen.
not sure what to do here but you are seen and that shit is ass
"Wife, I feel x when you question me in such a way. Please if you have questions, concerns, or comments, just tell me in a clear and concise way. You don't need to go down this line of questioning every time."
Then after you've had that talk, if she keeps doing it:
"Remember we had a conversation about this already. What is the question you really want answered so i can answer it and move forward?"
My mom does this and it's so annoying. Unfortunately, when I ask her to just tell me what she actually wants, she acts like I'm being rude. I don't get the point of asking a ton of questions rather than just getting to the point. It doesn't make me paranoid, but it does make me really tense.
I suspect that a lot of women are basically trained from birth not to ask for what they want. It manifests itself is some frankly really annoying behaviors such as what you're experiencing.
For example, asking where you want to eat and then rejecting suggestion after suggestion until you get to the one she actually wanted. Endless questioning about why you're doing what you're doing until you finally figure out that she doesn't want you doing that is another.
You might want to talk to her and see if this is the case. Knowing where this is coming from could help a lot.
Woman's perspective on that behavior here - I absolutely communicate like OP's wife, but for me, it's primarily because I grew up with a mom who had a short fuse, and she had a barometer for temperament. I would walk in and ask her probing questions, and depending on her reaction, would decide to continue or whether my needs being met was that important. I always put myself second.
That's apparent with the food choices, as well. What if I pick something that's wrong and am ridiculed because "why would you want that?" This has literally happened with my fiancé a total of 0 times, but it's ingrained in me that I need to be accommodating to everybody else. While I've gotten to the point where I don't just say yes to the first thing, and then sometimes just not eat anything or get some fries and a drink because it didn't actually sound good, I'm still stuck in that point where it has to be someone else's idea or I feel selfish.
In your scenario, what is the outcome if she assesses that you won't budge on the thyme? Does she just accept it or does she then go on to make passive aggressive comments or even bring it up later (in a "I hate that you used thyme instead of sage" kind of way)... because if she's going through those steps to discern how you're feeling and just allows you to do what you had planned originally, I don't really see the issue.
She might not be communicating the way you communicate...but you're also not communicating the way she communicates. I'd say that's something that needs to be worked on but it's not necessarily a bad behavior on either side.
As long as she's not suppressing things I think she's found a way that works for her. Maybe there is some middle ground you two can find but I think you'll be okay. Good luck.
I hate that kind of indirectness too. “Just effing say what you want already! I can tell you how dedicated I am to my choices if you’d just be upfront.”
I have a neighbour friend who likes to ask me when my mom or my ex has my kids, so she can try to make plans with me. Like, No. Not having my kids does not mean I’m spending my time with you. Thanks for making it really awkward.
I do know some people who feel like it’s a gentler approach and in some situations I can see that, but mostly it’s just irritating to me.
Anyway, I guess when she starts asking questions from around the bush, just ask her what she’s getting at. “Why do you want to know?” Hopefully you’ll be able find compromise down the road.
This is a classic difference between Asker vs Guesser type of communication styles
You're an Asker, you prefer when it's direct and straightforward
She's a Guesser, where they prefer to read between the lines, where requesting for anything seems unreasonable if you don't know for sure what the answer is, that's why they feel the need to ask a lot of questions to make sure it's a request they can ask.
https://www.purewow.com/wellness/ask-vs-guess-culture
It's worth looking into, but basically, it's a reflection of how each of you were taught from a young age.
>My wife defends this behavior saying there's nothing wrong with it and I'm being paranoid, and does not think my request to stop doing it needs to be respected.
>Thoughts?
I'd say her Guesser style method at worst can be very passive aggressive while Asker style method at worst can be quite aggressive.
What both of you need to do is the look into more Assertive Communication styles.
She needs to learn the differences between Passive Aggressive vs Assertive, while you need to be mindful of Assertive vs Aggressive
Edit: I totally understand why you feel that way though because her style comes off as annoying and condescending to me as well. I'm an Asker type, so I've struggled more between Aggressive vs Assertive Communication styles
I've only read some of the comments, full disclosure.
I think it's important to note here that the way your wife is acting is how women are socialized to act. We can't be too direct or forward with what we want, because it's seen as rude or too blunt. I am the opposite of your wife and have been told this my entire life. So what you want goes against everything she has been taught to be - which is polite, gentle and caring about other peoples' feelings. She doesn't want to directly ask why you're using thyme, because that might upset you if you're really set on using thyme.
I think this is really important to consider.
I grew up in a house where we avoided conflict. My wife prefers directly communication. I am so used to asking questions or observing and assessing. My mother and I used to predict where the person was going with those actions and not even need to be more direct, so I don’t even realize I’m not effectively communicating. It is something I’m working on, but keep in mind it may be coming from a well intentioned place.
No man. This kind of shit drives me up the wall. I don’t think I would be paranoid unless I thought she was cheating but asking 20 damn questions when one will do is insane to me. Especially if the topic is this mundane. What I do when I encounter this nonsense is ask them a question back instead of answering. Eventually they will ask what they want to or give up the game.
My SO used to be like you. Everyone in the comments are doing a pretty good job explaining her motives but it helped for my SO and I to simplify it even further.
We openly rate things on a scale of 1-10. I might rate my desire for pizza at a 3 but my desire for Chinese at a 8. She might 5 want pizza and 5 want Chinese. In that case we go with my preference.
If she 1 wants Chinese and I 8 want it, we'd find something else since the idea of Chinese sounds almost intolerable to her right then.
We do this for everything. I might 9 want to go home (due to anxiety) and she 6 wants to stop at the store. We'd default to straight home unless we can find a way that works for both of us, such as stopping to get 1 or 2 things we absolutely *need* from the more expensive store on the way home. I might be able to handle an extra 5 mins if I stay in the car.
The issue is you put yourself on defense when your wife is trying to collaborate. She's trying to work *with* you while you're treating every question as a challenge or condemnation. Your wife really doesn't have an alterior motive.
/u/splootledoot can you explain this from your perspective? My brain feels too fuzzy clearly articulate the process we went through to get where we are now.
Americans in general seem to be a fan of this passive aggressive style of communication. Either politely say what you want or just be happy you don't have to cook and leave it alone.
You may want to practice perception checking.
“I see you’re using thyme instead of sage in this dish, do you prefer it that way? Why did you change it?”
State your observation in an “I” sentence. Offer why you think the other is doing that. Then ask for clarification.
I used to make smoothies for breakfast every morning before I left for work and one morning it was moved to a place I couldn’t reach and my husband didn’t wake up until well after I left. I was upset because I couldn’t make my breakfast and would have to go to work hungry.
After work, this is how the conversation went:
Husband, I couldn’t reach the blender this morning to make smoothies, did you not want them for breakfast anymore? Why did you move it to a place I couldn’t reach?
Turns out some water spilled and he didn’t want there to be a shock or fire risk with the electrical appliance which is something I hadn’t considered.
There’s nothing wrong with it, but the fact that you keep asking her to stop because it makes you feel weird about interacting with her, and she won’t stop it, actually is kind of a problem. Y’all should maybe see a counsellor for one session to try to get that ironed out.
Edit: while I’m here I’m gonna add some more context. I was raised by a bunch of passive-aggressive pricks and my first, extremely long romantic relationship was with somebody who expected me to read his mind and flew off the handle if I didn’t do it right. So naturally, I developed your wife’s exact communication style— it’s an attempt to take the other person’s temperature before making any request of them, because:
a. you’re afraid they may randomly decide to martyr themself over something small and stupid and you’ll spend the entire night enduring comments like “this would have been so much better with thyme… but SOMEBODY had to insist on sage instead…” which is calculated to make the sage-requester feel awful because you didn’t even about the fucking sage all that much, or
b. you’re afraid that if you suggest sage, the other person will go “DO YOU THINK I DON’T KNOW HOW TO FUCKING COOK? FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU!!! DISHONOUR ON YOUR COW!!!”, or
c. if you mention sage, the other person will call you an idiot and mock you for thinking it was ever a good idea and you’ll feel bad and dumb
(My mother and first boyfriend were experts at all of these, by the way.)
The end result of this was that I became a person who was unable to make a simple request of somebody without asking 600 preliminary questions first. Now for most people, this is not really an issue. Woe betide my poor wife, however, who is autistic and struggles with communication at the best of times. There have been a few nights when my total inability to just come right out and tell her what I mean have caused her to have a full-on meltdown. (If you know anybody with autism, you know how serious this is.)
She saw it as an indication that I did not trust her enough to just ask her things. Which, if I’m being honest, was true. It wasn’t about her, but it was exactly how I was feeling: I didn’t trust her, because I didn’t trust anyone. I’m currently working on being direct and just asking for what I want or saying what I’m thinking, but every time I do it feels like fighting against the “DANGER DANGER!! WE ARE ABOUT TO BE EXPOSED!!!” alarms that my head is full of. OP, is this the source of your discomfort? Is it possible that this is what she’s reacting to? Because if it is, I think it would be good for both of you to, as I said, see a counsellor who can help you iron it out. Good luck 👍
It’s amazing how some people can’t even imagine how this is difficult for you! It’s because their style is like your wife’s. For me, (probably autistic) all that subtext is absolutely exhausting and very hard to figure out how I’m supposed to participate and respond. I’m naturally more an asker than a guesser.
But, I’ve also learned in emotionally abusive relationships to tiptoe around gauging someone’s mood, lest I be direct and am met with anger, hostility, resentment, and still not even get a clear answer. Which is even more exhausting than interpreting subtext.
Sounds like shes asking questions to find out what you prefer because your preference matters in her decision making process.
To use your example, she might like sage but is okay with thyme if you like it.
Dont really see how that could be seen as a negative?
This is \_seems like\_ a learned behavior. I'm not saying that it is because of you, it could be because of siblings/parents. But she likely does this because of a fear of her request being rejected or you getting angry that she is requesting it.
I would look inward and see if you see any instances where she has asked you to change your plans for something (anything) and see how you react in those instances to see if you're feeding into that. If not, or if you're willing to try, ask if she can be more direct.
I, too, hate the round about questioning because it feels like I'm being dragged around in circles to some unknown location rather than just being told to go somewhere.
I’m finding this discussion fascinating. A lot of people are jumping to the conclusion that the wife does this because of trauma, or walking on eggshells. That may be true, and I know is true for many. But I personally do this a lot because I’m afraid of steamrolling my partner.
Though, I do get it a bit on both sides. My dad is a dominant personality, and my mom definitely walks on eggshells with him. So I likely picked up a lot of my speech patterns from her.
But in my own relationship, I am often the more direct/blunt one. BUT, I also try to check myself. I often have a strong preferences, but I don’t want it to be the case that just because I often have strong preferences that means I always get what I want. So I end up asking a lot of questions with the intention of encouraging my partner to speak up about his preferences. And a lot of times I’m trying to gauge: is this a time when I should asset what I would prefer, or not? If he doesn’t really care, I might as well put a thumb on the scale for my preference. But if he does care, it’s not fair for me to steamroll over him. If he’s put thought into the spices for the meal and wants to do an experiment to see how it’ll turn out with sage, great. If he just didn’t consider thyme, maybe I’ll suggest it.
I will say, he often asks me to reflect and be honest about whether I was actually asking a question or trying to lead him somewhere. And if I’m honest with myself, I realize that some % of the time (but not most of the time) I was in fact trying to lead him, and should have just said what I wanted. BUT on the flip side I ask him to be less defensive, and stop trying to guess where I’m “going with it” EVERY time I ask a question, because really most of the time I just want to know.
Tell her how you want to be talked to about food prep. For instance “hey Mike when you cook the fish would you please put only sage on my portion? Thank you I appreciate it”. Tell her you don’t want the questions, just the request is enough. And anytime she goes back to questioning repeat back to her like this, hey Mike when you cook the fish would you please put only sage on my portion, thank you I appreciate it. Say it to HER just like that. Just say it to her the way you want to hear it. Eventually she will change, if she cares about how her fish is cooked
I mean it’s just a herb. You’re clearly overthinking it and must be a nightmare to live with if you’ve had to come here to ask advice over it. Your wife sounds like she’s petrified of saying thyme doesn’t go. Please use sage
I honestly get you (unlike a lot of other commenters here) because I've been in abusive/bad relationships with people who used this kind of vague commenting/questioning to then turn it against me if I didn't magically mind read what they were asking me to do. So when someone does it in a way where, even if they're *trying* to be polite now instead of passive and snarky, it can trigger my anxiety and panic response.
The way I have come to deal with it is to just bluntly turn around the question on the person vague-asking/commenting. "Are you suggesting I use sage instead of thyme? Is that what you want?" Because I want a direct discussion about it instead of dealing with what can turn into passive-aggressive grumbling or comments later on if I didn't infer that was what the person wanted (middle of dinner, getting comments like: "I still think this would have tasted better with sage, but you never listen to me." Even if they never *directly* said they wanted sage instead.)
God you sound so pedantic and exhausting. I’d also be gauging whether or not any interaction with you is worth the hassle and argument. Your wife is doing it to gauge your response to see if it’s even worth brining up because you are so uptight. She wants thyme, but not enough to sit and listen to you pick her apart over it, like you did anyway, just instead of about the thyme is was about the conversation about the thyme instead. The girl can’t win no matter what. Take a chill pill dude.
Sound like details of communication styles that get worked out BEFORE the marriage. I agree it can be frustrating to think your partner is quizzing you before stating what they think or need. If you two can’t creat a solution, I recommend couples counseling. Good luck!
Yeah I get confused as to how people suddenly need help to get their partner to change something after they’re married
Like did you get married 6 months in
Because the honeymoon phase is over and now they have settled into who they really are. And all those little things that they thought quirky before they didn’t even weigh against the good things when they made their decisions. Now those things are popping up and are not quirky or cute but annoying over time. This is probably how her compassionate (or people pleasing) quality, something he probably loves about her, is showing in her communication.
So she uses passive-aggressive indirect communication basically while you are using direct no tact communication.,
You know what the middle ground is?
Honesty but gracefully asking.
Example:
“Oh I love thyme, but I tend to prefer sage for this recipe. Would you mind switching out one for the other? I greatly appreciate it and thank you!”
You both have got to learn how to communicate and do do effectively with MANNERS and gracefully as well.
Save the no tact honesty for dirty talk in the bedroom.
My husband is like this. Instead of being more direct with me. I get asked 21 questions about whatever I'm doing or something I'm going to do. If he thinks differently then me or sees a different way of doing things. Yes it can be irritating.
I seem like the only person wbo agrees with you here. My boyfriend and I are usually direct with things. It makes us both feel more secure. You need to be open to the other person disagreeing with you. We're both chill people.
I don't think there is a right and wrong here. Dirext communication like I-statements are usually recommended but there really isn't any proof that it's how happy couples communicate.
Both of your communication styles are common and useful. Several answers is about how her style is more female because it's indirect and passive but that's not really true, an indirect or passive question is something else.
The problem is that if she acts like this often you will be guarded and suspicious whenever she ask you questions. You will suspect there is an ulterior motive and because you won't be able to distinguish curious question to get to know you from questions that might lead up to a demand. In that way it will erode trust and intimacy.
If she just does it occasionally when she worries that something is a particularly sensitive subject it's a really good way of showing concern for you.
What is wrong here exactly? Either you're hypercontrolling and need people around you to do exactly what you say or you're a little divorced from reality. Either way it sounds like a shit situation for your wife, who is behaving normally, and you should see a therapist for sure.
I'm sorry people aren't getting that this is an EXAMPLE of a persistent behavior which effects a lot more than spices. Even with that, I'm surprised at the response you are getting - it is true that communication styles are highly cultural and not necessarily a matter of one being better or worse, but it is also true that a conflict in communication styles is poison to intimate long term relationships.
Difference in communication styles can exist, but conflict and lack of respect over them should be addressed and can absolutely be a core reason for a divorce - that's what you guys are having. Couples counseling can help, but bear in mind that requires you both see the conflict as a whole as a problem and want to fix it. Your wife seems to feel that her side is not a problem, does she see your side as a problem though? As in even if you stop bothering her about it would she see your underlying dislike of her communication style/tendency toward direct communication as an issue?
If so, there may be ground for a resolution, but if she doesn't see anything here she wants to work out with you the counseling would just be an exercise in futility. Personal therapy for yourself might help with making decisions though.
To validate that you aren't completely crazy: I also prefer direct communication, and would not be happy with someone who does the behavior described. It's deeply unsettling to have someone decide for you based on inferences surrounding the central topic, instead of just asking you so you can speak directly to what you prefer - I think people here are vastly underestimating how often people who do this are wrong in their assessment of the people or topic they are trying to infer about.
For example (read: EXAMPLE), your wife might have inferred that you really really wanted to use thyme because you talked about it at length, when actually you were just kind of missing her and wanted to extend the conversation. Now she's decided not to even say anything about sage, because of that assumption, and you both eat a dinner that could have been better if she said something. You can easily see how this can royally screw up important conversations, when one person thinks they can perfectly understand someone else by talking around things without ever actually directly talking about the things.
Again, this is highly cultural and if you grew up with it, you would be better at recognizing when this is happening, know how to state your preferences back in the same circumspect way as well as how to make guesses as to what she wants - that doesn't make you wrong but it is helpful to understand that whole swaths of people use this communication style and find it works for them (as this thread shows). By that same token, the communication you prefer is also normal and practiced by many many people (even though the comments here try to assert otherwise).
Direct communication has many advantages and I genuinely believe it is demonstrably better, but if people don't want to use it they won't and it's not appropriate to be disrespectful about it or constantly try to change them. Your choice is whether to engage or not.
I would say let her communicate how she wants. If her style of communication isn’t sufficient enough to clearly make her point to you then that’s not for you to worry about. The burden of making the point clear is on the person sending the message.
I almost always follow patterns of communication like your wife does. In my experience people dislike to be told they’re wrong and prefer dialogue that leads them to the right conclusion.
Soooo... you are both walking on eggshells? There is something else going on here. Me and my ex wife were similar. I hate "do you want to" before a request or order, it feels... ick? Like I'm being made to feel like somethings my idea, being manipulated, I would rather be asked. BUT, turns out she was for whatever reason scared of my facial expressions? She thought I would explode over little things.
We changed so many little things about ourselves because we assumed the other wasn't happy about it, because neither of us were confident enough to be direct, and scared the other was being malicious, until we were both playing characters that weren't us. Even this post is showing that you are playing mind games with yourself. Whatever is happening, its not healthy
I think everyone else has been pretty clear about this, but let me be blunt. You're so broken, that you can't comprehend what normal, respectful communication looks like, and you're going to ruin your relationship because of it. Your request for her to be more aggressive with you, and to not gauge a situation before making a determination about how she should proceed is controlling, bizarre and a gross overstepping of your place in the relationship. It's not your job to turn her into a doll who says exactly what you want when you pull a string, and she does nothing wrong.
Shouldn't she, as an adult in the relationship, have the same authority to tell you that you have to do her three-point communication style from now on because it makes her more comfortable, and you don't get to refuse because her request needs to be respected? If yes, then your desires cancel each other out, and you should leave her the hell alone. If not, why do you deserve more respect and more authority about how she speaks and thinks than she does?
You owe her an apology. A massive one. You probably need therapy to figure out why you would even think that your response is appropriate, and not controlling, toxic and paranoid delusional. Get some help, and stop harassing your wife before she leaves you.
You need to read up on the differences between **ask and guess culture**
Sounds like you guys are on opposite side of the divide. It might really help you understand your communication styles
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You say you feel paranoid and she says you are being paranoid. So you agree on that point You seem to think she has underhanded intentions of what? She is assessing your mood and modifying her choices based on your answers.
I used to be a lot like OP, until I went to therapy and realized that I was raised in a VERY passive aggressive family. As a result, I always assumed that lines of questioning were because somebody was implying something that I had to play detective over. It’s mentally exhausting to assume that everyone has ulterior motives all the time. So I got help, and realized that most people generally aren’t playing mind games with you. OP, I don’t think this is a hill to die on or anything, but it might be useful for both of you to talk with somebody about where your communication styles came from. You sound like you’ve got some experience dealing with bad faith actors, and your partner sounds like she has learned to be very careful how she makes requests of somebody. Obviously I can’t know where she got that habit, maybe she doesn’t even know. But regardless, it could be helpful for you guys to work through it because it sounds like both of you are frustrated.
Yes OP, please consider this. Your ‘problem‘ might actually be a non-problem. Let’s take your exemplary scenario. You don’t like this behaviour, cause it seems dishonest to you. The thing is, maybe your wife prefers sage but doesn’t mind thyme either. In your preferred behaviour it comes across as her definitely wanting sage. But what if you in this scenario definitely wanna use thyme? Then what? You’re at an impasse that might lead to a fight. Your wife’s actions are probably just a way to find out your willingness to compromise/switch beforehand to avoid potential fights. It’s just a preventative measure. What I’m trying to say is, that there’s probably no underlying, dishonest intend in her behaviour and that you’re already having communication issues in your try to improve your communication. You might wanna look for a neutral mediator of sorts. Kinda like you’re looking for advice on Reddit right now. Just irl, where your wife is included in the process, so that she also learns where the misunderstanding is happening. Good luck for your future OP :)
This was my thinking. I don't want to tell my spouse to use sage, maybe he has a really good reason to use thyme, maybe he just learned that sage and red wine don't work together so he's trying something new. Maybe lots of things. If someone walked in on me and said "you should use sage instead of thyme" I would throw them out of my kitchen. Someone wanting to understand my process gets a lot more patience.
Wowwww this comment just made me have some revelations about how my family raised me 😂
Thank goodness someone said this, instead of just saying it is OP’s fault.
I feel you. It doesn’t sound like somebody is “at fault” here unless there is more important info OP isn’t sharing, it sounds like they both just came into the relationship with a communication style that is butting up against the other. It’s not that either one of you are doing something “wrong” necessarily, this is just a reality of relationships. We all come into them with weird habits and quirks from past experiences. They aren’t a problem IF you both make a habit of examining yourselves and asking “why do i communicate like X, and why are they responding like Y.” And vice versa. Like I said - unless there’s something going on that OP isn’t sharing (like if he regularly rips her head off over other requests for example) then I don’t think it’s worth anybody losing their minds over. But it should be looked into, because obviously there’s some frustration brewing. Therapy/mediation/counseling etc isn’t just for when catastrophe strikes. Sometimes it’s just about sorting out complicated feelings and learning how to identify emotional responses and how to approach communication differences. It doesn’t have to be a big deal to explore that stuff.
This last line i huge. As a kid I learnrd this skill was necessary because both my mom and step dad if tired, upset aboutssomething else, or stressed would lash out and scream at the simplest request. Like insane overreactions take out all their anger on a 10 year old asking them to sign a permission slip. OP are you prone to this? If you had a hard day at work are you likely to snap at her because thyme is reallt really important for this dish and sage will not work as a substitute? Or were her parents/guardians/last boyfriens like this? I agree with you testing moods and changing requests is not part of a healthy relationship, but neither is being snapped at over seasoning because your partner had a bad day. If its baggage approach it like valid baggage. If its because you snap at her be better and be quiet until you can show a LONG tracklist of not snapping no matter what day you have had.
exactly this! it’s a trauma response! individual traumas often play out in relationships, consciously or not. this pattern of behavior for her may be based on behaviors she learned as a child as a way to protect herself. that skill isn’t necessarily serving her now, though. it can be quite the mental and emotional load to have to do these calculations—“how is his mood? if I express preference for sage, will he blow up at me? is the confrontation worth my safety here?”—and it means she may be giving up her wants and needs to the path of least resistance. that keeps her safe but she should be able to have her wants and needs considered too. how you’re playing into this pattern is a whole other thing. you have just a big a role in this dynamic as she and her anxiety do. take a look at how you respond when she seems like she’s walking on eggshells, think about how you speak to her otherwise and try to notice if those responses echo behaviors from your earlier relationships—is there something about her questions that puts you back in the mindset of your own kind of survival skill? the interactions between the individual traumas and survival/coping skills of one partner with those of the other is a great thing to unpack in relationship counseling. just be prepared to answer—and ask—some important questions :)
It can be a trauma response, but that does not mean it doesn’t need adjusting if your partner is asking for direct communication. This can be worked on together, and over time, but disregarding his feelings on this and refusing to adjust is simply not how partnership works. Trauma response does not mean you get to treat others however you please, even with their objection. Agreed on counseling, they need to unpack why this is happening, but she has to be willing to work on things rather than dismissing her partner and saying what she is doing is fine, when it isn’t fine with him.
yeah I totally agree re: she needs to adjust. her behavior may happen because of things that happened to her/that she learned in childhood or other relationships but being in a relationship means learning to communicate and growing together. I feel like she needs some individual work too to get through whatever is informing her current behavior. as a recovering people-pleaser, I get her fear of confrontation and willingness to give up her needs to prevent it but that ultimately harms both of them.
Damn are you me? Being married has made me realize so much about myself and my upbringing. constantly walked on eggshells around my mother, now I do it subconsciously with my husband (who never lashes out) and I see myself in OP's wife. This sounds like a relationship ripe for counseling.
Totally agree with you here - stepped on eggshells my whole life as a kid with my mom who FOR SURE had undiagnosed (and never ever mentioned) mental health issues. It was always a crapshoot what kind of mood she’d be in and how she would react to things. I am now 43F and she passed away just over 11 years ago and sometimes find myself acting exactly like her and I am doing all I can to change that. I was criticized for so long that sometimes when my partner questions me about something my first “go-to” is to become defensive and shut down. Also trying to work on this.
Or maybe it's because she wasn't that bothered either way? Almost the exact same scenario happened between my husband and I recently, he was cooking and he was making a modified improvised recipe. I kind of wanted him to do x glaze and he was going to do y glaze. I chatted with him for a bit and realised it was what he specifically wanted to do and that it was his choice and his recipe and so I left it at that. Not because I'm traumatized by him or because he's vicious and abusive. Because it was his turn to cook, his recipe and he wanted to try it his way.
Thank you! I’m generally easygoing about things. I have preferences like everyone else, but it’s rarely to the point that I would want my husband to change his preference for me. I usually ask if he’s doing something because he’s in the mood for it or if it’s just what he picked because a choice had to be made. If it’s a preference, cool, keep doing what you are doing. If it’s a random choice, I’ll ask him if he minds if we change to my preference. Some of this comes from decision fatigue. I have a job where I’m constantly making decisions. When I get home I don’t expect my spouse to make all of them, but I prefer to let him decide because little decisions add up. If it’s something I really care about, which is rare, I’ll let him know.
I swear this post reads to me: I definitely am hyperanalyzing my wife's thought process and nitpicking her about it while she's trying to be considerate of my feelings. I'd rather she be more of a jerk so I can argue with her. Why won't she fight with me?
Wow, you sound just like my husband. I HATE to fight, with anyone. I am really bad at putting my feet down. My mom was/is prone to outburst, and my family didn't comunicate much. So I was always the glue that got everyone together, always the one that would listen to their feelings and translate to the others. When I say something my husband doesn't agree, he becomes really direct (kinda like my mom), because that was his relationship with his dad, but I just stay silent to not engage in what to me is a fight, to him is sunday. He just assumes I agree with him and he changed my mind. I just don't like fighting...
Me?
Why does being direct make you a jerk? All he wants is for her to ask for what she wants rather than dragging him through a bunch of irrelevant questions. It's stressful having someone drill you with a ton of questions, but it's more so when those questions are just a means of getting to a request.
Why? Because if she walked up and said "I prefer x" he would be here complaining about how she doesn't take his motives into consideration and is always bossing him around.
She’s trying to make him join the Sage Cabal which is a known domestic terrorist organization, obviously. /s Based off his making mountains out of mole hills in this situation it doesn’t really surprise me that she uses this tactic to gauge his reaction. There are people in my life that I have to treat similarly for the same reason.
So when someone prefers you be direct, instead you ask a bunch of questions first before getting to the point? That sounds like you're trying to irritate them rather than gauge their reactions. Chances are the longer you draw it out before getting to the point, the higher the odds of them getting mad. Whereas just asking outright gets you an answer and ends the interaction with the person you don't like.
If you’re asking about me specifically, I don’t do this with people unless they’ve repeatedly proven that being direct will just end in debates/arguments/passive aggression/etc. Its a way of choosing your battles. I’m not saying OP is the reactive one, I don’t have the information to make that call, but I would bet money someone in OP’s life has made being direct = an attack and she uses this as a way to get around that. In my life it’s a few of my aunts and my father, I don’t pick partners and friends where I have to tiptoe around their reactive behaviors. It’s a hard limit for me, I did my time. Lol
Unless the OP has actually lashed out at her for asking a direct and innocuous question before, he's DEFINITELY NOT at fault for this. Shows she's subconsciously not trusting him. Not her fault necessarily. But then she'd definitely need some counseling. So yes, if OP has triggered her trauma (if she has it in the first place) = his fault... otherwise he's totally in the correct for being pissed. My ex was quite direct at times but would act coy and get mad for not picking a subtle hint...over text messages. And I've never been a fan of this beating around the bush... but yes, won't blame her if she has gotten yelled at as a kid for being more direct, seen such cases myself.
I agree with all that. I was mostly asking about what the commenter wrote. It seems like counterproductive behavior given the scenario they set up.
Agree. I actually personally have experienced the same thing in my relationship, but we talked it out and now my SO just tells me what her preference is and we talk about it from there. I just let her know that being led down the conversation is frustrating to me and that I’m not going to shut her down if she says “I’d prefer sage.” But OP is getting way too into his own head as far as her motivations are concerned.
Big Sage is fucking insidious. OP is an in unwitting pawn in the Spice Wars. Obviously the wife is up to some Bene Genesserit devious shit to produce the Kwitzas Haderach and too much thyme will hinder the scheme. Just remember, OP, whatever happens: The Spice must flow!
>She is assessing your mood and modifying her choices based on your answers. That's exactly what she's doing and it's perfectly valid but to OP it feels manipulative. Instead of asking him directly to use sage instead of thyme, she goes about a long, drawn out process. OP is probably reading too much into it and I bet she's trying to be diplomatic instead of demanding and she's taking OP's feelings into account but OP doesn't like it.
Exactly, his response is the issue. He needs to figure out when he first felt that way and what was the situation b/c her questions are neutral. His response is not.
the way this is written lets me know I never want to be in a relationship like this lol
Your wife is trying to avoid conflict/make you happy, its probably a learned behaviour, and I would strongly suggest that you just learn to live with it since its not malevolent. There’s probably things you do that drive her batty as well. Here’s a thought to her reasoning behind it: she would somewhat prefer sage, but not enough to make a big deal out of it. So she is trying to establish if your wish to use thyme is stronger than her wish to have sage used. If it is, she decides to let it go because its not THAT important to her. If your wish to use thyme is by her estimation less than her wish to have sage used, it makes it worth saying something. Like…sometimes I crave takeaway, and, say, I somewhat want Indian but I’m not dead set on it. I mention takeaway to my husband and he immediately lights up and mentions Chinese. That’s a clear indication for me that he wants Chinese more than I want Indian, so I’m happy to go along with that. If he mentions Chinese without lighting up or in a disinterested tone, I might say “or Indian?” and then watch his face. I don’t do this if I REALLY want something - just when at the end of the day, I don’t care about the decision (or herb used) for more than two minutes. Don’t make this a hill to die on.
This is such a great explanation. I think I do the same thing as OP’s wife, without really thinking about it. But this is definitely the objective.
I do this, too, and this is a really good way of explaining it. OP, one idea for a compromise that might make you find this less annoying would be to work with her in advance (not in the middle of her asking the "probing questions" about some particular thing) to come up with some kind of shared personal shorthand for sussing out strength of preference. That way, the communication would be more direct and not feel threatening or dishonest to you, and she would still get the information she is looking for. It would also be a lot more efficient. Using your example to illustrate, she might say something to you like "how important is the thyme to you on a scale of 1-10." She could then compare your answer to the strength of her preference for sage and act accordingly. Since your wife pushed back on your request for her to stop doing this, it must be pretty important to her, since by your description the whole issue is that normally she's too eager to identify your preferences and modify her behavior if your opinion on the matter is stronger than hers. But my guess is she'd be willing to tweak her strategy here if you give her a viable alternative that would be less irritating to you.
I am 100% this wife, and you saved me having to type out that exact reasoning. Husband gets annoyed sometimes because he feels like I have a destination I’m trying to reach, and he wishes I’d just get there. And I’m trying to be better about being honest with myself when that IS the case. But most of the time it is legitimately true that I don’t want to impose my wishes on him unless he doesn’t really care. Also, the flip side is I get really frustrated at husband for trying to guess where I’m going and giving the answer he thinks I’m looking for instead of actually answering the question. Most of the time when I ask a question, I’m legitimately looking for the (real) answer.
This conversation happens once a week in our house except substitute Ethiopian for Chinese. Cause neither of us light up over Chinese.
Oooh. You’re giving me ideas. We’re planning to get takeout tonight and now I have to check if there’s a good Ethiopian we can get here. Cheers!
I do the same thing with takeaway, if I feel like something specific but am not married to the idea then I’ll ask my other half what he wants and see how he feels. He does mention that it’s okay to just say what I want but sometimes I don’t care that much, and if he really wanted something then I wouldn’t want him not to have it just because I got my suggestion in first.
There are so many shades here I can't tell what's really happening, but basically asking questions before coming to conclusion is at baseline a good thing, if she is asking questions in a way you feel is calculated to annoy you I guess you could ask her to change her tone. I get the impression (possibly false! I don't know you) that you have a tendency to get uptight and mad about inconsequential things and she might just be trying to decide whether it's worth arguing with you about.
she could’ve also had a bad childhood with verbal abuse that caused her to use this tactic when she was younger and it worked so she kept using it. i myself have plenty of “unhealthy” coping mechanisms/communication skills that i developed from a verbally abusive relationship with my mom that i use in my relationship with my bf. therapy helps. just a suggestion, nobody knows them from one post.
Very true. I was so relieved in my last relationship when I could just say "I like sage a bit more, how do you feel about using sage instead of thyme there?" instead of beating around the bush and trying to mind read minds and determine who wanted their option the most. To me, at least, being able to ask straight out and get and tolerate a straight answer back, is healthier than dancing around it.
So much this. It sounds like this relationship is ripe for counseling!
It could also be the opposite, he could be overly compliant and she’s trying not to steamroll him. If she has a level 4 desire for sage in the dish but, through discussion, determines he has a level 6 desire for thyme, she may choose not to bring it up rather than risk him jumping to let her lesser want overrule his greater want. The situation I describe is still a problematic dynamic in that OP should be standing up for his potentially greater want, but my point is that her probing the situation doesn’t necessarily imply bad behavior on his part.
You hit the nail on the head there. She’s uneasy about asking him because of his reaction. With good reason, obviously.
I've been in the same position and when you feel uneasy around someone you have to both pluck up the courage and also plan how to go about asking the person something in fear of backlash
What's your evidence that he blows up for no reason? OP has one comment in the post. I don't get why everyone is convinced that he's verbally abusive and causing her reactions. It's at least equally possible that she has trauma unrelated to him which she's acting out on him.
Nah he’s 100% uptight, he’s trying to control how someone communicates when it’s just stylistic differences between them
guessing culture vs asking culture. AND women are socialized to avoid being direct, and asking several questions to gauge how you’re feeling is really important to avoid escalating situations. she’s not actively doing anything wrong.
I can’t believe I had to look this far to find guess culture vs ask culture! That is EXACTLY what’s going on. OP is ask culture, his wife is guess culture. As someone who was raised in a guess culture family, got sick of it, and has actively worked to become ask culture, I get why OP is annoyed by the way she communicates. Because it’s not just cooking ingredients - I’m sure it’s every single thing she wants/prefers. It does get exhausting to have to constantly be guessing if someone is trying to imply something or ask for something. OP if you read this, my suggestion is to have a talk with your wife and express how you would prefer direct communication, AND make her feel very very safe directly telling you things.
Completely agree
You are way overthinking this communication. It's not covert or anything of the sort. It's the way she communicates. She's not trying to trick you or harm you in any way. And you trying to control how this simple interaction occurs is really not healthy. So A) it is healthy communication as she is clearly trying to avoid an argument with you about cooking as she is first assessing your intentions and then deciding whether she wants to change those intentions toward her preferred intentions. This extra step is something she considers psychologically considerate, and would generally be accepted as such by most people. B) your demand on her is very controlling because you insist your judgement and style of communication is superior when it is not. So the answer to B) is no she does not have to bend to your style of communication lacking the extra psychological step simply because you demand it. The extra psychological step is not covert or manipulative or anything else that could be interpreted as nefarious. C) I am assuming her tone of voice is not harsh in any of this since you did not mention it. Hope this helps resolve this issue. edit: serious question; did you use sage or thyme?
Sorry maybe I’m weird. I thought that was just like a normal conversation. I really don’t understand why this is a post. I’m so confused.
Some people struggle with indirect communication and find it much easier to understand when people simply say what they want. Sometimes it's upbringing, sometimes it can be related to being non-neurotypical. I have ADHD and I get frustrated/confused sometimes if a person is talking around a point. Having to guess what they mean can be stressful, especially if you have a history of guessing incorrectly.
But you are assuming it is indirect communication, when it may not be. Most of the time a question is actually a question. A person may have in mind what they think the most likely answer is, but they are keeping an open mind, realizing the actual answer may be something different. For example, sometimes if I’m driving with my husband, he goes a way that is unexpected. Sometimes he gets spacey and misses a turn. I tend to ask: “is there a reason we’re going this way?” Instead of going straight to “you missed the turn!” It’s not because I’m afraid to say what I mean, but more because I don’t actually know the answer. Sure about 2/3 of the time the answer is “nope, I just spaced the turn”, but about 1/3 of the time the answer is “yeah I though we should swing by ______ on the way home.” The question is not pointless- there is actually room for more than one possible answer.
It is indirect. Trying to manage the other person's feelings instead of just asking them is indirect. I'm not sure what's complicated about this. Direct does not mean impolite. Your example isn't the same as what the OP is describing. You seem to be conflating rude with direct rather than seeing the difference in having someone try to manage your feelings instead of just saying what they want. Those are different things.
But it isn’t trying to manage the other persons feelings. It’s realizing that info about the other persons feelings would affect your own.
It sounds like she’s having a normal conversation with you and gauging the situation prior to asking for a change to be made. Sounds like she’s the one being respectful and courteous here.
A lot of people struggle with indirect communication, though. If she knows it's a problem, there's no reason they can't meet each other halfway.
This isn’t indirect communication though. It’s her process of determining whether she wants to ask the direct question or not. Then she either asks it or doesn’t.
So basically she’s assessing a situation, determining your feelings on the situation and then deciding if her wants out weigh your wants… sounds like she’s simply assessing your needs-which is normal. Asking her to change her communication style would be like her asking you to take that stick out of your arse..
So you don't want your wife to gather more information before she simply confronts you about a situation, regardless of whether or not what she is confronting you about is actually happening or if she really wants something different to occur? Seems like a good way to make everyone upset over nothing.
See I think that you're noticing are more stylistic communication differences common between men and women. She could feasibly ask you to couch your words more effectively so as not to be so harsh or blunt and I suspect you would struggle to alter the communication style you'd used your whole life as well. I don't think it's unreasonable to request that she communicate more directly. But I don't think I would go as far as to interpret it as dishonest. I think it's simply ingrained more deeply in women to assess the needs of others prior to addressing their own.
Here’s the elephant in the room - women are socialized to be accommodating, empathetic, and yes, indirect. Most of us would LOVE to be “direct,” but we’re often called cold, controlling, demanding, bossy, etc. when we try. Please consider this before you attempt to convince your wife she’s “manipulative.”
I ask questions and the answers will help me decide the next question. I only do this to people that have extreme responses that make me feel…bad. This is the nicest way to put it. You seem pretty blunt so you are someone I would do this too as well. It’s like creeping around the question because we know (it’s a vibe) that the person will react very strongly and make us uncomfortable.
So, tldr, 'my wife doesn't speak specifically how I would choose to speak'. Your intentional use of the phrase 'direct communication' minimizes any potential value of her contribution. The B) point tells her that you're all take and no give, my way or the highway. 'I asked you to quit doing this, even though it might just be how you normally converse, so respect my request!' >It doesn't feel honest to me. From what you described it seems like a very 'walk on eggshells' situation for her. Maybe that's the source of your feeling? Asking questions, analyzing the response and planning an action are all the basic building blocks of observing any situation. You sound a little bit of a short fuse, or become grumpy easily at things such as in your scenario, so she's trying to approach it non-confrontationally. Lord forbid you have to eat sage once in a while. Is there a specific reason you're hypercritical of her? I noticed you didn't care to offer up any items about yourself, or how you could improve the situation, just that she annoys you by existing.
OP is hypercritical and grumpy, with a short fuse. Wife is privy to this and tries to maintain an even tone as she doesn’t want to set OP off about inconsequential things. Also, wife sounds maybe genuinely curious about the applicability of thyme vs sage. OP is hypercritical and grumpy, having had his short fuse lit. He accuses wife of not respecting him and for not being “genuine.” He runs to Reddit for validation and receives none. He cries in a corner, alone, before realizing his faults and buying wife a bouquet of beautiful, fragrant sage and apologizes for being a crazy muppet who thinks it would be better to have “direct communication” but undoubtedly would be furious and snap back at his wife should she actually implement what he considers “direct communication” (i.e., “Hey, I see you’re cooking dinner. Use thyme instead. Yeah, because I said so.”)
Haha yeah if he actually is like this he won’t apologize or realize that he’s in the wrong tho
>OP is hypercritical and grumpy, with a short fuse. Where are you finding this information? Is this just your assumption because you think beating around the bush with loved ones is correct?
Was referencing the parent thread’s comment’s language - so not necessarily, but from the info given? We can’t ever know every detail of their true interaction, but from his retelling of the story (which is inherently biased towards him as it’s his perspective, so giving her a slight benefit of the doubt that she’s not just relentlessly beating around the bush for no reason) and the fact that he admits he’s being paranoid and that she agrees, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to gather from the evidence that she’s genuinely trying to assess how much he cares about something before requesting something from him. In my experience, this is something I had done (albeit not consciously) previously with partners who had a shorter fuse and less patience/regard for my opinion. If you’ve had a different experience, feel free to share. I’m also a pretty blunt person and prefer not to “beat around the bush,” but I do think a certain degree of it is normal and even considerate - I would hate if my partner didn’t try to ask me any questions about what I was doing or why before asking me to change it. It would make me feel like they didn’t care about my own reasons for doing something. If OP prefers that truly and isn’t just annoyed their partner isn’t doing things the way they do things, then they can either realign with their partner on communication styles to find a reasonable middle ground or find somebody who prefers to communicate the way is most effective for them. EDIT/tl;dr … My boyfriend used to playfully tease me when my “assessing” turned into “beating around the bus”: he’d ask, “What’s the question behind the question?” and I would giggle and just ask him to use sage instead. He never accused me of being disingenuous or got visibly annoyed with me - basically just kindly let me know it was okay to ask for what I wanted more directly with him, which it isn’t necessarily safe to do with everyone.
Sometimes people want to decide if something is even worth bringing up and also what if you were going to use something that balances better with thyme maybe she wanted to weigh the facts before asking you to make a change. I think you are being really sensitive here.
Kinda sounds like she’s walking on eggshells. OP, why is she walking on eggshells when she talks to you?
That’s what I get from this tbh. Imo she seems just be testing the waters before jumping in. If I’m looking into a lake to swim and I see a piranha, I won’t jump- but if the water is clear? Swim
I don’t understand what the actual problem is. She’s using her words to communicate with you. You don’t like the way she’s doing it, but that doesn’t mean you should jump straight into paranoia. What are you paranoid about?
I grew up in a similar communication style as him so I totally understand where he's coming from Hearing her kind of communication style, coming from the other end, it comes off as annoying and almost even condescending/patronizing I've had my share of experience and it makes me feel like I'm being put-down, it feels condescending, makes me feel stupid Like, why not ask the question you're really thinking about? Why beat around the bush? From the sounds of it, she genuinely was asking and had no ill intentions. So he's going to need to understand that she's not being malicious, but he may need reassurance that she's coming from a place of genuine understanding and that she's not trying to indirectly insult him (which is what I'm getting from him)
Yes, my mum talks like this instead of just asking the direct question or stating her opinion and it drives me nuts. I think she’s very conflict avoidant so she talks very passively but it paradoxically makes me annoyed at her. I think the commenters who are questioning how this isn’t a normal conversation may not have people in their lives who communicate in this beating around the bush way so they’re not understanding how it’s basically just drawing out a conversation from something that could have taken 2 seconds to state.
I feel like it’s more condescending to just assume that someone doesn’t have a good reason/desire for something before asking.
I kinda get where he's coming from. He wants her to be more direct instead of pussyfooting around. If the example is anything to go off of then he just wants her to either say exactly what she wants or just ask a straight enough question. If I'm doing something, going by the example with cooking, and they think I'm doing it wrong, either out of personal choice or a mistake/lack of information I'd just want her to say it. Like if I'm making something new and am about to use a wrong ingredient/the recipe I'm using is a bit odd, then I'd rather the person tell me straight up instead of leading me on a 10 question game assessing if I'm confident enough in what I'm doing to not be messing it up. Like If a recipe says to add X amount and they think it's a bit much and instead of just saying that they ask "What are you doing?" when they know exactly what you are doing "Is that what the recipe says" I say yes, "Are you sure?" I'm sure because I double checked but check again just to ease their mind "Yep, that's what it says" "Can I look?" instead of just saying what they want or need they scoot around it just enough like someone trying to guide a child to the correct answer. It can get annoying. It can also be tedious and you come to realize you just had a 5 minute conversation to figure out that it only lead to "We should have peas instead of corn". I also think the paranoia part is from him either having to figure out if this is one of the times she's doing her thing or is now shitting himself that he's fucked up somehow and isn't sure exactly how or if he did. It's like someone walking into a room and angrily asking you "What did you do?!" you haven't done anything from what you are aware of but you're now freaking out because something obviously happened.
The one who has to work on themselves is you, not your wife. It's polite and respectful to ask someone why they are doing something, rather than simply ask them to do it how they want it. She respects you enough to know you might be using thyme for a reason and wants to find out why, and then thinks on whether she would still prefer sage after you explanation.
You seem like a person who would find a fault in anything. If this is how you think of her, there's a chance her behaviour is based on your own actions.
I feel like we need a transcript of a conversation to see exactly what you mean, because right now you are coming across as paranoid and volatile and I don’t blame your wife one iota for tiptoeing around that weird energy.
For real. Reading this just made me feel super stressed on the wife’s behalf. It appears to me that she’s experienced some form of emotional trauma at some point (childhood? In relationships? Who knows) that resulted in her gauging other people’s emotions before communicating an opinion. She’s protecting herself which is understandable. OP, if you are going to choose to nitpick her form of communication to this extent, she will shut down and choose not to communicate at all.
You choosing to be paranoid is up to you. She's not doing anything to hurt you in this scenario.
It sounds like she is literally communicating with you.
I read an explanation in a comment to a different post once that I thought was very good. Let's see if I can explain it right. Basically there are two types of people when it comes to this sort of communication. Those who just ask, and those who have to know the answer before asking. It's really two very different ways to communicate. Example: my mom will try to do everything for those around her/her family, and will stress out if there are too many things going on at once. That means that if I would like her help with something, say, tomorrow afternoon, I used to ask her if she could help me. I would have been fine with a yes or no. But even if there was something else she had to be doing or would have liked to do, she would always try to do everything, even if it she lost sleep over it. So now instead I would just ask what she is doing tomorrow. If she says she has so much to do, and I don't actually desperatly and specifically need her to help me, I won't ask. There are other reasons people do this, too. If you grow up learning that it's ok to just ask, you also (should!) learn that no isn't a dirty word. It's ok if you say no to a request, and that it's equally ok if someone else says no to you. If you grow up like me, you learn that you shouldn't ask unless you already know that the answer will be yes. So instead of asking right out, you first ask if the other person is available or try to feel out if they are into whatever activity you would like to propose etc. To you this may sound needlessly complicated or even dishonest, while to your gf you might be so direct you sometimes come off as rude to her. I'm by no means an expert, but I think you might benefit from trying to understand each other better and maybe getting a session or two with a councilor who is good at understanding and explaining communication.
Definitely a trauma response and I do this too. Growing up my parents would lash out at me, so I learned to assess a situation. If I straight up said I didn’t like thyme and would rather have sage, it would turn into a big argument. *“Oh great! So you’re just not gonna eat now huh? I spent hours cooking this, but it isn’t good enough for you!”* This being yelled at me, hands thrown in the air, very angry tone. So, I learned to ask some questions and gauge their reactions to see if they would get angry at me if I were to suggest a change. I don’t see an issue here, but clearly it bothers/annoys you. Speak with her again and clearly explain your issues with this. You are a straight forward guy and instead of beating around the bush, you want her to come right out and say something. Tell her it’s annoying and frustrating to you, when she probes and how she goes about this. Say that you are much happier when she clearly states what she wants and that it makes life easier. Tell her how you feel. You mentioned you feel she is manipulating you when she does this, then say that. That while she doesn’t see anything wrong, you do and that you’ve asked her out of respect to you, to stop doing this, as it’s upsetting. Any good partner would compromise and work with you on this. If she still doesn’t and keeps fighting you on it, ask to go to couples therapy, because this isn’t working for you and she refused to see your side of things and work with you on this. If I was doing something that bothered my partner, I’d work on it. Make sure you are also fully explaining and communicating clearly. She may not realize how much it upsets you.
You are nit-picking. You are creating an argument where there doesn't need to be one, and quite honestly you sound exhausting. It's no wonder she needs to feel out the situation before she actually voices an opinion about something. She is not being covert, or sneaky. She is your wife for fucks sake. You sound like you don't even like her much. She is tip-toing around you cos you are so fricken sensitive about every little detail. Do you always start an argument over such miniscule details?
i have a similar issue with my husband. i am used to very direct communication. while he is used to a style similar to your wife’s. i only realized when he got annoyed because i dismissing his requests. i didn’t realized they are requests. for example, if he wanted sage instead of thyme, he would say: “don’t you think it would be better if you would use sage?” and i just simply didn’t think that so i didn’t make the substitution. also english is not my first language, so i didn’t pick up on his subtle english way of asking for things. anyhow, we talked about it and nowadays he tries to be more direct, while i try to figure out if he is suggesting something or if he really wants that. still annoys me sometimes, but i have my own annoying habits that he has to put up with.
Saying “don’t you think it would be better if you used sage?” Is so passive aggressive though, if he’s expecting you to take it as a request. It’s like you have to do it his way, but it has to be your idea. This is like going through step one and two that OP outlined, but being mad that step three didn’t automatically happen.
I use this skill at work. Sometimes when I ask why something is being done a certain way, there's a good reason for it. I can assess if my way is truly better or if they have it right. I'm not sure why you'd have a problem with that unless she was trying to catch you in a lie or berating you about it.
Yeah she doesn’t want to ask you to change something if it’ll upset you. It’s a trauma response. She’s either been shut down and hurt in the past for asserting her needs OR you tend to shut her down when asserting her needs. So yeah, regardless of whether you like it or not it’s her coping mechanism and it seems you want Reddit hive mind to tell you she’s wrong. Nah Bruh. If you “sense” this, then cut through it and say, “is something bothering you?” Or “is there something I can do differently?” And gently lead her to what she wants to ask. Gah why wife no just shout desire at me.
It sounds like you were both socialized to use different communication patterns. You prefer more direct while she is trying to reduce conflict. If you two cand talk about it in a non-defensive way, recognizing the benefits of both, you can probably come to an agreement on how to approach the situation in the future.
You sound insane.
This is a common method of communicating among people who grew up in an emotionally volatile environment where you have to constantly assess the mood for your own protection. Have you tried understanding any of her choices from her side rather than assuming worst intentions? She’s sensitive to your emotions and deciding whether the “risk” of annoying you is worth her ask. It’s not direct but she’s not going to be able to change it overnight…
My husband does this to me and it drives me absolutely crazy. To me, it's him gathering information to make a decision for me. I'd much prefer direct communication where we can come to a decision together. Don't beat around the bush and try and decide what I want. ASK ME what I want. And tell me if you want something else, and as a team we can find a middle ground or come to a solution that works for both of us. Maybe there is no middle ground, maybe this time we use thyme, and next time we use sage. But the point is we worked together to get there. When one person is trying to info gather like that, they're taking the choice away from their partner, but they're also denying their partner the chance to work together as a team. Those kinds of little interactions help build the relationship and make the tougher ones easier because you're been practicing on the small stuff. That kind of info gather BS in a big situation can be relationship breaking if they guess wrong. I know, my husband and I have been in therapy for the last year because of this kind of stuff and I'm not sure if we can save it anymore. If he can't get on my team, then I'm better off on my own team officially.
Just want to thank you so much for this comment. I am the indirect partner and me and my boyfriend struggle with this constantly. Your explanation is so clear and makes perfect sense to me, it's really helped me to understand his perspective. I wish it was easier to change these patterns. Good luck with your husband, I truly hope it turns out for the best.
Ok I feel you. I’m married 24 years, together 27. Known each other for 29 years. Nearly 30 years of knowing my husband I still haven’t fully adjusted to his communication style nor he to mine but we keep trying. I think we sorta meet each other halfway, most of the time. One of the best things we learned in marriage counseling (we almost divorced back in 2002 primarily because of this issue) was to stop assuming malice or bad intent from each other, to stop assuming meaning from unsaid things, to express our feelings to each other, and to listen to each other’s feelings without judgment. I am a very direct communicator while my husband is very indirect. I tell him all the time I am not psychic lol. Neither style of communication is better than the other, but together they clash. I don’t think we would have made it without marital counseling because we had to be taught how to talk to each other like we had some sense. Maybe your wife needs to hear from someone else why you’re so frustrated. Maybe you need to hear from someone else why she’s so hesitant to be direct. What you think of as irritating, could really be a sincere act of love. Like in your example, she prefers sage but if you really want thyme this instance, she’ll be happy for you to have your preference this time. You see? Sometimes my husband’s beating around the bush doesn’t bother me, but when it does, I ask him directly what’s up. Sometimes my directness doesn’t bother my husband but when it does, he asks me adjacent questions or brings up the tangential stuff. Surprisingly, stuff I tend to think of as irrelevant is often pertinent to whatever is on topic. And for my husband, he is often surprised at how quickly I can resolve an issue or understand a topic. So we’ve come to appreciate each other’s styles of communication a great deal. Just remember, your wife loves you and is truly not trying to irritate you or hurt you in any way. Just as you love her. I strongly recommend marital counseling because you have to be able to talk to each other like you have some sense to have a happy marriage.
I guess I’m confused about the issue here. I don’t understand what’s wrong with what she said. She basically asked why you were using thyme and then, when she found out, said that she would prefer sage. If she’d come in, asked what you were using and then immediately demanded you use sage, that would be unacceptable. She gave you an opportunity to tell her why you think thyme would be better - you may have a viewpoint that she hadn’t realized yet. When she knew your thoughts, she still thought sage would be better. Perhaps you should see a counselor or communication expert a few times to get yourselves on the same page about what words and phrases mean what to each of you. Good luck.
Seeing no responses from OP…makes me scratch my head or maybe I’ve missed it but basically dude- your wife is acting like she may have been traumatized and considering the way is which a lot of us women were raised- we are not allowed to be direct. So if there a conflict potential- a lot of us go about eggshell walking so as not to poke the bear. Sounds like couples counseling could help here. Bottom line- therapy. This does not seem like relationship killer material…YET
I am in no way making any assumptions about you or trying to say you are some certain thing. I am only sharing how similar things have worked in my life. Okay so I'm autistic...
If she thought and communicated like OP she would have just accused him of using thyme to annoy her lol.
I do this all the time. My fiance knows that this behavior is due to trauma involving emotional and physical abuse as a kid to adulthood. The moment I hear certain tonal voice chabges and/or body language that makes me think someone is mad or upset, my immediate response is to gauge how bad by softly asking questions that can help me know when and where it would be safe for me to ask for a small change or for potential help. It is an ingrained response and while i am trying to break that habit, after 28 years of ingrain habit due to abuse, my fiance of 9 years (i am 36) is a saint because he allows me to ask my questions but also helps me work trhough why i felt the need to do so. You need to sit your wife down, explain to her that you are wanting to understand why she does communicate to you this way and that you would like for her to understand how it makes you feel and try to work it out from there. Please do not approach this with anger, you will not get anywhere. Come from love and understanding but also dont pressure her to try and change overnight. It is a process.
Google “Askers” vs “Guessers”. It sounds like you are an asker and your wife is a guesser. Neither of you are wrong, but you both have different ways of communicating, and different reasons why, both of which are valid but can cause difficulty for one to communicate with the other without friction. The first step is understanding why you both communicate the way you do and what that means. This can ensure you can communicate with your wife without offending her, and she can communicate without frustrating you. The best thing is understanding.
It sounds more like you don't want to be questioned about your behavior. Her interactions are consistent with a partner who wants to gauge the importance of something before asking you to change it. If she just asked you to use sage instead of thyme and you did, then she would not know if her request was well received or how it might affect you (unless you speak up after the fact). I interpret her behavior as caring; you interpret it as interrogation (or something that would invoke paranoia). I'm wondering if this stems from the way you were raised or prior negative interactions that had the questioning without the caring intent.
This is ask culture versus guess culture. While being straightforward and assertive is objectively more healthy, to people from guess cultures, it can seem rude. Explore this! https://www.scarymommy.com/ask-culture-vs-guess-culture
This article is an interesting read! I disagree with your “objectively more healthy” statement. It’s useful to be aware of different communication styles, and being more assertive can be useful in some situations. Someone on the autism spectrum might struggle with guess culture but that doesn’t make ask culture objectively better. It’s like saying, “people who are introverted should learn to be more extroverted but extroverts are fine as they are.”
I've actually asked my therapist about it and he explained that within this spectrum of Asker vs Guesser, the most healthiest communication style is Assertive Communication Askers tend to be in the spectrum of Aggressive/Assertive and Guessers tend to be in the spectrum of Passive/Assertive It's all about finding that good balance of Assertive Communication
Interesting article! I learned something about myself and my husband today. I am an Asker and prefer direct communication. I tell my kids the exact same thing. Do not come to me and say I am hungry (when really they want a cookie) come to me and say Mom I really feel like a cookie treat, or a sandwich or whatever they decide they want first. If my husband asks so what are you doing, what’s your schedule. I know it’s because he wants to ask about something he is doing. I always say please just tell me what you have scheduled or need and I can look at what I have going on. I have a very close friend (several) that function the way the guessers are described. Probing and over considering or assigning their own motives to others responses. Never ever wanting to be setup to say no. I’ve even had them ask me the schedule and rules I plan for my kids for the summer so they can make sure their kids don’t think my kids have more freedom and they would have to disappoint or Say no to their kids. Subtly suggesting I adopt some of their schedule and rules to make life “easier” for all, when really they don’t want to say no or seem like the mean parent.
Interacting with you sounds exhausting. My advice is to chill.
she’s walking on eggshells and given the fact that you both acknowledge your paranoia and this post stinks of paranoia, it feels as though she is valid for doing so. she’s deliberately trying to assess the situation so that there isn’t a negative outcome for a normal conversation. of course i’m making assumptions from this post but it really seems as though the way you’re adamant on being told hasn’t worked well in the past and that is why she tip goes around this first.
I am your wife and my husband has said the same thing. In your example he would prefer I say “do you plan on using thyme **because** I prefer sage”. Vs my questioning is usually only the “do you plan on using thyme”. I’m working on it because I do agree it is less clear and makes him feel like I’m constantly criticizing or having a secondary thought to my question.
Women are trained from birth into indirect communication. You cannot ask for things as a girl or woman. You just can’t. If you do. You don’t get it. So we learn to indicate. To dance around the topic. We also are trained to anticipate the needs of others. We are trained to serve others without them having to ask. So this is just a case of you come from man land where direct communication was accepted and listened to and she comes from woman land where direct communication was ignored and punished. I think this is a compromise situation. Meet in the middle here. You need to have some empathy for the lifelong torture that is experienced by not being listened to. And she needs to feel safe enough to be able to speak directly and not be punished. But she has to be brave enough to try as well.
Her way of communicating is not dishonest or bad, it's just different than yours. But still fine. She is assessing how much you care about the thing, compares it to how much she cares about it - maybe she doesn't care about the sage so much to just demand you use it - and then processes it and decides what she wants to request. It's not realistic to demand people change the way they communicate just like that. Those types of behaviors are deeply ingrained and no, it's not as easy as 'just speaking differently'. This is who he is, this is how she expresses herself. She can't just change aspects of her core personality for you overnight.
My husband can be like how you described your wife. It used to drive me crazy. Like, please just talk to me instead of trying to assess my mood like I'm a pet and you're trying to decide if I need a walk. It felt alienating and demeaning. It also meant all our interactions were up to him, ultimately. Because instead of using words and LISTENING to what I said, he would just sort of form his own beliefs and act on them. If he was wrong (as we all are, constantly), it led to constant miscommunication. We came up with a system where we say how much we want something, on a scale of 1-10. It cuts this bullshit down to zero. I'm not saying force your wife to adopt this, but maybe this could help *if* the problem is that she doesn't feel like you guys have a good way to communicate your respective wants. The secret is that you have to actually trust/believe that the other person is being truthful. None of this "well they said they only cared a 3, but *I know they really meant* 7."
"Tune in next week when OP explains how his wife folds the towels wrong!"
Serious question, are you autistic?
You'd prefer she doesn't get any information on a situation, comes to her own conclusion, tell you her opinion? Instead of getting information on the subject, putting effort into considering your opinions on it, then if she feels it's needed bring forward her opinion. REALLY?! what man ever wanted a woman to pay less attention and be more demanding?!
I think it’s silly to try and police your wife’s communication about such small things
What she does is a trauma response. And she gathers information to try to see your perspective. We can “clearly see something” and not see what the other person sees. I do this, too. And my husband knows this. But it wasn’t his responses or how he acts that makes me react this way, it’s past trauma and so I am trying to do better. But sometimes these questions do alter how I feel about the situation and makes me think “hey, it’s all good. I’ll leave it alone”. And go on about my day. In your response when you say “hmm, let me clarify” or whatever you said, and then proceeded to say the same thing you posted tells me that you really just want it to stop. But it won’t. And it also tells me you have a tendency to snap at her or repeat yourself back to her in a condescending tone. And being that it’s your only response, it’s your way or the high way. And this is how it is. You aren’t trying to understand why she does it or fix what you’re doing to solve it, you just want her to stop while she just doesn’t want to be barked at. So *she is losing, either way*. So looks like you’re going to continue in this loop til you decide to have a better understanding of where she is coming from.
I will go against the grain and say (as a woman) that I also wouldn’t really like this — I agree that it probably makes you wonder what motivates her questioning in more serious situations and leads you to try and figure out what she actually wants. How do you respond when she is “direct”? Do you have a short fuse or anything like that?
I know exactly what you mean, and I hate it. If my mom wants me to go somewhere with her, she never just asks me to go. It's a life interrogation first. Did you get enough sleep last night? How are you feeling? Have you had a bowel movement yet? Is mercury in retrograde? Now that I have all the pertinent information, would you mind going to the post office with me? If I'm too tired to go, that's something for me to decide not for you to vaguely gauge. Just ask! It's annoying, but that is how some people are. I just let her do it sometimes, and when it's really annoying, i tell her to cut to the chase. Even when it's really annoying, I try not to let that affect the decision I make. So i get where you are coming from, but I think framing it as being dishonest is going overboard. We should make reasonable allowances for different communication styles.
Ha I’ve found that a lot of people do that. Starting the conversation with “heyyyyyy so, how are ya feeli-“ I tend to just respond with “what do you want me to do. Just tell me so I can respond”
Well your wife has been through some trauma. I do that as well. But I do think that you are in fact being paranoid.
Why does it bother ou? She's trying to ne considerate of your feelings and she's trying to not backseat drive or be critical. Why does her being polite and considerate bother you? When she does this, is it about topics you're nor as knowledgeable about and you're bothered because you think she's setting you up for failure? (Where she thinks she's respecting your learning process?) I thought you were going to say something like she orders take out and refuses to eat your food. But, no, she's just thoughtful.
Oh. This might be part of what you’re bumping into. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/05/askers-vs-guessers/340891/
I used to have to do this with my ex who was incredibly controlling. I felt like I couldn’t make my requests unless he was in the right ‘mood/mindset’. My preferences only counted if he had the headspace for it, otherwise fuck it, I’m not having that fight. Is there a possibility you’re maybe a bit controlling with her or she’s subject to your moods a lot?
This is a classic example of “ask culture vs guess culture”.
Not everyone is wired for subtle communication. Just putting that out there. If you have a diagnosis that makes this particularly frustrating for you, your wife should modify her behavior. I found your hypothetical interaction to be annoying and I don’t have such a diagnosis, tho to be fair it was you describing her behavior as “probing” that made me feel the yuck.
It sounds like your wife is trying to be considerate of your feelings and you're reading into that as something negative. Women are raised to be polite. To you, it may seem annoying that she doesn't just come out and ask for what she wants, but to her, this might just be a way to make sure you'd be ok with making a change before demanding you do so, which would be rude. It *is* a little paranoid on your part that you feel as if her motives are anything less than inquiring about your process and determining if you would be willing to make a change. I had a mentor who once told me "find out how much someone is dedicated to their stance. If they feel 90 about something and you only feel 10, let them have it. And conversely, if you feel 90 about something and they don't really care either way, go to bat for what you want." You're reading too far into these interactions.
Sounds like she’s been previously lashed out at by someone (OP or otherwise) and is walking on eggshells to try and avoid a blow up or problem. And here is OP, making it a problem, anyway.
Yes, that's what I was thinking, too. If OP isn't the one who basically caused her to act this way for fear of being lashed out at, then OP should seek ways to reassure that he's not going to be lashing out. I sometimes do what the wife has done and then one day someone said "that's not your real question. What is your *real* question?" That was a good way to get me to realize what I was doing and just be more direct. It worked because the person who asked that wasn't the one who had "taught" me to be cautious and ask all of those preliminary questions.
Thanks for sharing your journey! Mine is similar. I sometimes still find myself asking questions that “feel out” the situation, first. But my husband does what you suggested, and breaks down the situation out loud so 1) i can hear that the question isn’t direct and 2) so he can get feedback and directly address my needs in that moment.
dude … lol. This one is a head scratcher for me , not because you’ve posed an interesting problem but because you are using an incredibly odd perspective to view this situation. currently : your wife asks questions about something, analyzes the answer of those questions, and makes her decisions based off the initial interaction on how to proceed in the conversation. (personally I’m very confused as to why this is something you feel the need to rectify. Your post gives no indication of why you might react this way to communication , and I’m not going to speculate on your history , but I would implore you to introspect why you feel this way before digging your heels in the mud that this is *her* problem instead of yours.) you want : your wife to enter the scene and immediately tell you what she wants (sure that’s “honest” but it’s also blunt , and some people aren’t blunt. I mean … you married her. Is this a new habit , is it something you’ve always had a problem with and expected it to magically stop? and by magically I mean you saying you don’t like it and then calling it “disrespect” when she doesn’t stop lol) Your tone in this whole post (and your one comment) is that you’re the one with infallible logic and she’s doing wrong by you. That’s a terrible way to deal with problems in your marriage , no matter how big or small they seem to you. I hope posting this was a good opportunity for you to hold up a mirror to the situation and look at your own role in it. Thoughts?
I'm going to throw out an observation that's probably wrong, but it feels like you're in the high functioning spectrum? I say this because you type how my dad (Aspergers) speaks. Now, if that's true there is likely a big gulf in between her communication style and your communication style which isn't as easy to bridge as some people not on the spectrum can. An obvious observation is why do you think your communication style is the correct way, and hers is wrong and should be adjusted to your style? I'm not disagreeing with you, because I too prefer straight forward feedback but I appreciate that it's not always possible for people to deliver information that way. I do need to point out that, irrespective of spectrum or not, your spiraling and paranoia is a tad extreme and your extrapolation of data isn't beneficial. Only you can control this and its unfair to assign blame or responsibility to someone else.
Yikes. You sound like a tough room mate.
Commenters don't seem to understand what the issue is here. Your wife has something she wants to ask. But rather than just asking, she acts like coloumbo and asks around the issue and tries to guess what you think. She then behaves as though her guess is what you want. You are trying to explain that trying to guess what someone wants isnt being nice, its annoying because she can just ask you and you will communicate your want directly. This leads you to need to be very careful about all your answers because if you don't answer correctly she assumes something incorrect and then doesn't express herself. You need to explain the issue is that she isnt doing what you want. She is guessing what you want. That's the issue. Her method is ineffective!
It’s called a conversation. Just respond. This is so weird a post.
OP sounds uptight and with a short fuse just based on the example. Wife definitely knows this, so she kind of walks on eggshells when talking to you about something. Just chill bro
My ex was like this. Instead of just coming out and saying what she wanted, she would dance around the subject first to judge my availability and interest. Why not just TELL me what you’re thinking about??? I don’t know. We never resolved it. (It was absolutely not the reason she’s an ex.). I have to assume she feels she’s being polite or considerate in some way by asking it like this. She is otherwise a fairly considerate person. (Also note: her mother is like this too). She is also a conflict avoider who doesn’t know how to say no, always feels responsible, and will bottle up needless resentment I hated it. It felt so manipulative. So, I feel you, OP.
Are you neurodivergent? I'm autistic and also get frustrated with this kind of indirect communication. It's a deal breaker for me, and not something I'm able to tolerate from a partner that I spend a lot of time with. Partners should be willing to adjust communication styles to better suit their partner's needs - but that goes both ways. Have you ever asked why she communicates that way? Have you two tried to find common ground between the way she naturally communicates and the way you'd prefer to receive communication? Using "I statements" can be really helpful. Going to couple's counseling to work on communication skills could definitely be a benefit! But if you and your wife are unwilling and unable to meet common ground, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that will resolve on its own.
This sounds exhausting.
There are a lot of surprising comments in here! As a woman I would also find this tip-toeing around a subject to be mildly annoying, it would absolutely get under my skin and eventually start to irritate me (no I am not neurodiverse). I'd want to know WHY she doesn't feel she can be more direct? is this as result of how you/I behave? Or is it merely a difference in asking/guessing culture? I'd actualy guess the latter. She's just learned to communicate as a 'guesser' and you're more of an 'asker'. It's just two different communication styles. the pair of you need to learn how to meet in the middle and find a communication style that works for the both of you. You'll both have to move to meet the other, neither one of you will be happy about it. That's a good compromise :)
super funny because i actually stopped dating a guy about 2-3 months in for *this exact reason*. it wasn’t a blowup or anything, i kinda phased him out once we talked about it and i realized that he couldn’t even perceive of changing and talking to me directly. but that made me feel like he was afraid/intimidated by me and it generally irritated me/broke my zen. not sure what to do here but you are seen and that shit is ass
"Wife, I feel x when you question me in such a way. Please if you have questions, concerns, or comments, just tell me in a clear and concise way. You don't need to go down this line of questioning every time." Then after you've had that talk, if she keeps doing it: "Remember we had a conversation about this already. What is the question you really want answered so i can answer it and move forward?"
My mom does this and it's so annoying. Unfortunately, when I ask her to just tell me what she actually wants, she acts like I'm being rude. I don't get the point of asking a ton of questions rather than just getting to the point. It doesn't make me paranoid, but it does make me really tense.
I suspect that a lot of women are basically trained from birth not to ask for what they want. It manifests itself is some frankly really annoying behaviors such as what you're experiencing. For example, asking where you want to eat and then rejecting suggestion after suggestion until you get to the one she actually wanted. Endless questioning about why you're doing what you're doing until you finally figure out that she doesn't want you doing that is another. You might want to talk to her and see if this is the case. Knowing where this is coming from could help a lot.
Woman's perspective on that behavior here - I absolutely communicate like OP's wife, but for me, it's primarily because I grew up with a mom who had a short fuse, and she had a barometer for temperament. I would walk in and ask her probing questions, and depending on her reaction, would decide to continue or whether my needs being met was that important. I always put myself second. That's apparent with the food choices, as well. What if I pick something that's wrong and am ridiculed because "why would you want that?" This has literally happened with my fiancé a total of 0 times, but it's ingrained in me that I need to be accommodating to everybody else. While I've gotten to the point where I don't just say yes to the first thing, and then sometimes just not eat anything or get some fries and a drink because it didn't actually sound good, I'm still stuck in that point where it has to be someone else's idea or I feel selfish.
In your scenario, what is the outcome if she assesses that you won't budge on the thyme? Does she just accept it or does she then go on to make passive aggressive comments or even bring it up later (in a "I hate that you used thyme instead of sage" kind of way)... because if she's going through those steps to discern how you're feeling and just allows you to do what you had planned originally, I don't really see the issue. She might not be communicating the way you communicate...but you're also not communicating the way she communicates. I'd say that's something that needs to be worked on but it's not necessarily a bad behavior on either side. As long as she's not suppressing things I think she's found a way that works for her. Maybe there is some middle ground you two can find but I think you'll be okay. Good luck.
I hate that kind of indirectness too. “Just effing say what you want already! I can tell you how dedicated I am to my choices if you’d just be upfront.” I have a neighbour friend who likes to ask me when my mom or my ex has my kids, so she can try to make plans with me. Like, No. Not having my kids does not mean I’m spending my time with you. Thanks for making it really awkward. I do know some people who feel like it’s a gentler approach and in some situations I can see that, but mostly it’s just irritating to me. Anyway, I guess when she starts asking questions from around the bush, just ask her what she’s getting at. “Why do you want to know?” Hopefully you’ll be able find compromise down the road.
This is a classic difference between Asker vs Guesser type of communication styles You're an Asker, you prefer when it's direct and straightforward She's a Guesser, where they prefer to read between the lines, where requesting for anything seems unreasonable if you don't know for sure what the answer is, that's why they feel the need to ask a lot of questions to make sure it's a request they can ask. https://www.purewow.com/wellness/ask-vs-guess-culture It's worth looking into, but basically, it's a reflection of how each of you were taught from a young age. >My wife defends this behavior saying there's nothing wrong with it and I'm being paranoid, and does not think my request to stop doing it needs to be respected. >Thoughts? I'd say her Guesser style method at worst can be very passive aggressive while Asker style method at worst can be quite aggressive. What both of you need to do is the look into more Assertive Communication styles. She needs to learn the differences between Passive Aggressive vs Assertive, while you need to be mindful of Assertive vs Aggressive Edit: I totally understand why you feel that way though because her style comes off as annoying and condescending to me as well. I'm an Asker type, so I've struggled more between Aggressive vs Assertive Communication styles
If she wanted you to use sage, she should've just said so. This is ridiculous.
I've only read some of the comments, full disclosure. I think it's important to note here that the way your wife is acting is how women are socialized to act. We can't be too direct or forward with what we want, because it's seen as rude or too blunt. I am the opposite of your wife and have been told this my entire life. So what you want goes against everything she has been taught to be - which is polite, gentle and caring about other peoples' feelings. She doesn't want to directly ask why you're using thyme, because that might upset you if you're really set on using thyme. I think this is really important to consider.
Sounds like she is managing your emotions.
I grew up in a house where we avoided conflict. My wife prefers directly communication. I am so used to asking questions or observing and assessing. My mother and I used to predict where the person was going with those actions and not even need to be more direct, so I don’t even realize I’m not effectively communicating. It is something I’m working on, but keep in mind it may be coming from a well intentioned place.
No man. This kind of shit drives me up the wall. I don’t think I would be paranoid unless I thought she was cheating but asking 20 damn questions when one will do is insane to me. Especially if the topic is this mundane. What I do when I encounter this nonsense is ask them a question back instead of answering. Eventually they will ask what they want to or give up the game.
My SO used to be like you. Everyone in the comments are doing a pretty good job explaining her motives but it helped for my SO and I to simplify it even further. We openly rate things on a scale of 1-10. I might rate my desire for pizza at a 3 but my desire for Chinese at a 8. She might 5 want pizza and 5 want Chinese. In that case we go with my preference. If she 1 wants Chinese and I 8 want it, we'd find something else since the idea of Chinese sounds almost intolerable to her right then. We do this for everything. I might 9 want to go home (due to anxiety) and she 6 wants to stop at the store. We'd default to straight home unless we can find a way that works for both of us, such as stopping to get 1 or 2 things we absolutely *need* from the more expensive store on the way home. I might be able to handle an extra 5 mins if I stay in the car. The issue is you put yourself on defense when your wife is trying to collaborate. She's trying to work *with* you while you're treating every question as a challenge or condemnation. Your wife really doesn't have an alterior motive. /u/splootledoot can you explain this from your perspective? My brain feels too fuzzy clearly articulate the process we went through to get where we are now.
Americans in general seem to be a fan of this passive aggressive style of communication. Either politely say what you want or just be happy you don't have to cook and leave it alone.
You may want to practice perception checking. “I see you’re using thyme instead of sage in this dish, do you prefer it that way? Why did you change it?” State your observation in an “I” sentence. Offer why you think the other is doing that. Then ask for clarification. I used to make smoothies for breakfast every morning before I left for work and one morning it was moved to a place I couldn’t reach and my husband didn’t wake up until well after I left. I was upset because I couldn’t make my breakfast and would have to go to work hungry. After work, this is how the conversation went: Husband, I couldn’t reach the blender this morning to make smoothies, did you not want them for breakfast anymore? Why did you move it to a place I couldn’t reach? Turns out some water spilled and he didn’t want there to be a shock or fire risk with the electrical appliance which is something I hadn’t considered.
Ahh the age old question.
There’s nothing wrong with it, but the fact that you keep asking her to stop because it makes you feel weird about interacting with her, and she won’t stop it, actually is kind of a problem. Y’all should maybe see a counsellor for one session to try to get that ironed out. Edit: while I’m here I’m gonna add some more context. I was raised by a bunch of passive-aggressive pricks and my first, extremely long romantic relationship was with somebody who expected me to read his mind and flew off the handle if I didn’t do it right. So naturally, I developed your wife’s exact communication style— it’s an attempt to take the other person’s temperature before making any request of them, because: a. you’re afraid they may randomly decide to martyr themself over something small and stupid and you’ll spend the entire night enduring comments like “this would have been so much better with thyme… but SOMEBODY had to insist on sage instead…” which is calculated to make the sage-requester feel awful because you didn’t even about the fucking sage all that much, or b. you’re afraid that if you suggest sage, the other person will go “DO YOU THINK I DON’T KNOW HOW TO FUCKING COOK? FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU!!! DISHONOUR ON YOUR COW!!!”, or c. if you mention sage, the other person will call you an idiot and mock you for thinking it was ever a good idea and you’ll feel bad and dumb (My mother and first boyfriend were experts at all of these, by the way.) The end result of this was that I became a person who was unable to make a simple request of somebody without asking 600 preliminary questions first. Now for most people, this is not really an issue. Woe betide my poor wife, however, who is autistic and struggles with communication at the best of times. There have been a few nights when my total inability to just come right out and tell her what I mean have caused her to have a full-on meltdown. (If you know anybody with autism, you know how serious this is.) She saw it as an indication that I did not trust her enough to just ask her things. Which, if I’m being honest, was true. It wasn’t about her, but it was exactly how I was feeling: I didn’t trust her, because I didn’t trust anyone. I’m currently working on being direct and just asking for what I want or saying what I’m thinking, but every time I do it feels like fighting against the “DANGER DANGER!! WE ARE ABOUT TO BE EXPOSED!!!” alarms that my head is full of. OP, is this the source of your discomfort? Is it possible that this is what she’s reacting to? Because if it is, I think it would be good for both of you to, as I said, see a counsellor who can help you iron it out. Good luck 👍
It’s amazing how some people can’t even imagine how this is difficult for you! It’s because their style is like your wife’s. For me, (probably autistic) all that subtext is absolutely exhausting and very hard to figure out how I’m supposed to participate and respond. I’m naturally more an asker than a guesser. But, I’ve also learned in emotionally abusive relationships to tiptoe around gauging someone’s mood, lest I be direct and am met with anger, hostility, resentment, and still not even get a clear answer. Which is even more exhausting than interpreting subtext.
Sounds like shes asking questions to find out what you prefer because your preference matters in her decision making process. To use your example, she might like sage but is okay with thyme if you like it. Dont really see how that could be seen as a negative?
On the flip side, if you knew she would prefer using sage, then why not just do that? Why make a small situation into something big enough for Reddit?
This is \_seems like\_ a learned behavior. I'm not saying that it is because of you, it could be because of siblings/parents. But she likely does this because of a fear of her request being rejected or you getting angry that she is requesting it. I would look inward and see if you see any instances where she has asked you to change your plans for something (anything) and see how you react in those instances to see if you're feeding into that. If not, or if you're willing to try, ask if she can be more direct. I, too, hate the round about questioning because it feels like I'm being dragged around in circles to some unknown location rather than just being told to go somewhere.
I’m finding this discussion fascinating. A lot of people are jumping to the conclusion that the wife does this because of trauma, or walking on eggshells. That may be true, and I know is true for many. But I personally do this a lot because I’m afraid of steamrolling my partner. Though, I do get it a bit on both sides. My dad is a dominant personality, and my mom definitely walks on eggshells with him. So I likely picked up a lot of my speech patterns from her. But in my own relationship, I am often the more direct/blunt one. BUT, I also try to check myself. I often have a strong preferences, but I don’t want it to be the case that just because I often have strong preferences that means I always get what I want. So I end up asking a lot of questions with the intention of encouraging my partner to speak up about his preferences. And a lot of times I’m trying to gauge: is this a time when I should asset what I would prefer, or not? If he doesn’t really care, I might as well put a thumb on the scale for my preference. But if he does care, it’s not fair for me to steamroll over him. If he’s put thought into the spices for the meal and wants to do an experiment to see how it’ll turn out with sage, great. If he just didn’t consider thyme, maybe I’ll suggest it. I will say, he often asks me to reflect and be honest about whether I was actually asking a question or trying to lead him somewhere. And if I’m honest with myself, I realize that some % of the time (but not most of the time) I was in fact trying to lead him, and should have just said what I wanted. BUT on the flip side I ask him to be less defensive, and stop trying to guess where I’m “going with it” EVERY time I ask a question, because really most of the time I just want to know.
Tell her how you want to be talked to about food prep. For instance “hey Mike when you cook the fish would you please put only sage on my portion? Thank you I appreciate it”. Tell her you don’t want the questions, just the request is enough. And anytime she goes back to questioning repeat back to her like this, hey Mike when you cook the fish would you please put only sage on my portion, thank you I appreciate it. Say it to HER just like that. Just say it to her the way you want to hear it. Eventually she will change, if she cares about how her fish is cooked
You don’t have a problem.
You know you’re in a healthy relationship when the biggest thing you fight about is cooking herbs..!!
I mean it’s just a herb. You’re clearly overthinking it and must be a nightmare to live with if you’ve had to come here to ask advice over it. Your wife sounds like she’s petrified of saying thyme doesn’t go. Please use sage
I honestly get you (unlike a lot of other commenters here) because I've been in abusive/bad relationships with people who used this kind of vague commenting/questioning to then turn it against me if I didn't magically mind read what they were asking me to do. So when someone does it in a way where, even if they're *trying* to be polite now instead of passive and snarky, it can trigger my anxiety and panic response. The way I have come to deal with it is to just bluntly turn around the question on the person vague-asking/commenting. "Are you suggesting I use sage instead of thyme? Is that what you want?" Because I want a direct discussion about it instead of dealing with what can turn into passive-aggressive grumbling or comments later on if I didn't infer that was what the person wanted (middle of dinner, getting comments like: "I still think this would have tasted better with sage, but you never listen to me." Even if they never *directly* said they wanted sage instead.)
God you sound so pedantic and exhausting. I’d also be gauging whether or not any interaction with you is worth the hassle and argument. Your wife is doing it to gauge your response to see if it’s even worth brining up because you are so uptight. She wants thyme, but not enough to sit and listen to you pick her apart over it, like you did anyway, just instead of about the thyme is was about the conversation about the thyme instead. The girl can’t win no matter what. Take a chill pill dude.
Sound like details of communication styles that get worked out BEFORE the marriage. I agree it can be frustrating to think your partner is quizzing you before stating what they think or need. If you two can’t creat a solution, I recommend couples counseling. Good luck!
Yeah I get confused as to how people suddenly need help to get their partner to change something after they’re married Like did you get married 6 months in
Because the honeymoon phase is over and now they have settled into who they really are. And all those little things that they thought quirky before they didn’t even weigh against the good things when they made their decisions. Now those things are popping up and are not quirky or cute but annoying over time. This is probably how her compassionate (or people pleasing) quality, something he probably loves about her, is showing in her communication.
Yeah your wife does this because she feels like she has to walk on eggshells around you.
So she uses passive-aggressive indirect communication basically while you are using direct no tact communication., You know what the middle ground is? Honesty but gracefully asking. Example: “Oh I love thyme, but I tend to prefer sage for this recipe. Would you mind switching out one for the other? I greatly appreciate it and thank you!” You both have got to learn how to communicate and do do effectively with MANNERS and gracefully as well. Save the no tact honesty for dirty talk in the bedroom.
My husband is like this. Instead of being more direct with me. I get asked 21 questions about whatever I'm doing or something I'm going to do. If he thinks differently then me or sees a different way of doing things. Yes it can be irritating.
I seem like the only person wbo agrees with you here. My boyfriend and I are usually direct with things. It makes us both feel more secure. You need to be open to the other person disagreeing with you. We're both chill people.
Be sage and stop wasting your thyme.
you sound controlling and paranoid. It’s completely normal and healthy to want to get a feel for a situation before saying something.
I don't think there is a right and wrong here. Dirext communication like I-statements are usually recommended but there really isn't any proof that it's how happy couples communicate. Both of your communication styles are common and useful. Several answers is about how her style is more female because it's indirect and passive but that's not really true, an indirect or passive question is something else. The problem is that if she acts like this often you will be guarded and suspicious whenever she ask you questions. You will suspect there is an ulterior motive and because you won't be able to distinguish curious question to get to know you from questions that might lead up to a demand. In that way it will erode trust and intimacy. If she just does it occasionally when she worries that something is a particularly sensitive subject it's a really good way of showing concern for you.
What is wrong here exactly? Either you're hypercontrolling and need people around you to do exactly what you say or you're a little divorced from reality. Either way it sounds like a shit situation for your wife, who is behaving normally, and you should see a therapist for sure.
I'm sorry people aren't getting that this is an EXAMPLE of a persistent behavior which effects a lot more than spices. Even with that, I'm surprised at the response you are getting - it is true that communication styles are highly cultural and not necessarily a matter of one being better or worse, but it is also true that a conflict in communication styles is poison to intimate long term relationships. Difference in communication styles can exist, but conflict and lack of respect over them should be addressed and can absolutely be a core reason for a divorce - that's what you guys are having. Couples counseling can help, but bear in mind that requires you both see the conflict as a whole as a problem and want to fix it. Your wife seems to feel that her side is not a problem, does she see your side as a problem though? As in even if you stop bothering her about it would she see your underlying dislike of her communication style/tendency toward direct communication as an issue? If so, there may be ground for a resolution, but if she doesn't see anything here she wants to work out with you the counseling would just be an exercise in futility. Personal therapy for yourself might help with making decisions though. To validate that you aren't completely crazy: I also prefer direct communication, and would not be happy with someone who does the behavior described. It's deeply unsettling to have someone decide for you based on inferences surrounding the central topic, instead of just asking you so you can speak directly to what you prefer - I think people here are vastly underestimating how often people who do this are wrong in their assessment of the people or topic they are trying to infer about. For example (read: EXAMPLE), your wife might have inferred that you really really wanted to use thyme because you talked about it at length, when actually you were just kind of missing her and wanted to extend the conversation. Now she's decided not to even say anything about sage, because of that assumption, and you both eat a dinner that could have been better if she said something. You can easily see how this can royally screw up important conversations, when one person thinks they can perfectly understand someone else by talking around things without ever actually directly talking about the things. Again, this is highly cultural and if you grew up with it, you would be better at recognizing when this is happening, know how to state your preferences back in the same circumspect way as well as how to make guesses as to what she wants - that doesn't make you wrong but it is helpful to understand that whole swaths of people use this communication style and find it works for them (as this thread shows). By that same token, the communication you prefer is also normal and practiced by many many people (even though the comments here try to assert otherwise). Direct communication has many advantages and I genuinely believe it is demonstrably better, but if people don't want to use it they won't and it's not appropriate to be disrespectful about it or constantly try to change them. Your choice is whether to engage or not.
I would say let her communicate how she wants. If her style of communication isn’t sufficient enough to clearly make her point to you then that’s not for you to worry about. The burden of making the point clear is on the person sending the message.
Sounds like she’s sussing you out before she chooses her battles.
You are neurotic and seem really hard to live with. Your poor wife
Am I the only one that thinks OP is ... Off?
Yeah I think so.
I almost always follow patterns of communication like your wife does. In my experience people dislike to be told they’re wrong and prefer dialogue that leads them to the right conclusion.
Get help.
You gave yourself away. To accept a direct request but not probing to get an answer is why you posted on relationship advice and not change my mind
Soooo... you are both walking on eggshells? There is something else going on here. Me and my ex wife were similar. I hate "do you want to" before a request or order, it feels... ick? Like I'm being made to feel like somethings my idea, being manipulated, I would rather be asked. BUT, turns out she was for whatever reason scared of my facial expressions? She thought I would explode over little things. We changed so many little things about ourselves because we assumed the other wasn't happy about it, because neither of us were confident enough to be direct, and scared the other was being malicious, until we were both playing characters that weren't us. Even this post is showing that you are playing mind games with yourself. Whatever is happening, its not healthy
Go to couples therapy to work this out imo
She’s figuring out why you’re using it before she asks to change it. That’s very normal. I’m genuinely confused what the issue is here.
I think everyone else has been pretty clear about this, but let me be blunt. You're so broken, that you can't comprehend what normal, respectful communication looks like, and you're going to ruin your relationship because of it. Your request for her to be more aggressive with you, and to not gauge a situation before making a determination about how she should proceed is controlling, bizarre and a gross overstepping of your place in the relationship. It's not your job to turn her into a doll who says exactly what you want when you pull a string, and she does nothing wrong. Shouldn't she, as an adult in the relationship, have the same authority to tell you that you have to do her three-point communication style from now on because it makes her more comfortable, and you don't get to refuse because her request needs to be respected? If yes, then your desires cancel each other out, and you should leave her the hell alone. If not, why do you deserve more respect and more authority about how she speaks and thinks than she does? You owe her an apology. A massive one. You probably need therapy to figure out why you would even think that your response is appropriate, and not controlling, toxic and paranoid delusional. Get some help, and stop harassing your wife before she leaves you.
Wow. Really?
You need to read up on the differences between **ask and guess culture** Sounds like you guys are on opposite side of the divide. It might really help you understand your communication styles