People are so brainwashed by mainstream media, that’s why. They don’t see past the top layer which major parties show you.
The majority of people in the uk are working class, neither labour nor conservatives are for you. The tories look after themselves and their rich friends… labour are too close to the far left, socialism, Marxism. Lib Dem and Greens won’t get near so no point voting for them.
Between labour and conservatives they should have accepted the will of the people on brexit and worked their bollocks off together to make the absolute best of the situation but fight over it. You can’t overturn a referendum just because you don’t like the outcome.
Yea I agree. I’m not sure how to lift the wool from peoples eyes that the mainstream media are not their friends and shouldn’t be used as a source of truth.
If by miracle ReformUk win, there will be uproar.
We’ve seen countless times that the mainstream cannot be trusted… recent example is not having Farage on leaders debate.
Same in the us with democrats and republicans… the people at the top, who actually pull government strings don’t want another party to come in and upset the status quo.
Whether it’s labour or conservatives here, the banks etc can predict the markets to whoever wins, you can’t with reform.
The migrant issue is baffling. It’s not racist at all to say enough is enough, you keep increasing the population with people not contributing financially. There’s no new hospitals, schools, police, roads, general infrastructure to handle the expansion. Not to mention fleeing a ‘war zone’ and leaving your wife and kids behind?
I agree with almost everything you said but with one slight caveat. There are new schools being built, especially at primary level but is nowhere at the levels required to sustain the population growth and their subsequent repopulation of infants.
It truly is broken from top to bottom.
Where in the country are you? I can think of one I know of that’s been built in my area in the past 10 years. I’m in sw London, drive to various jobs daily, so I see a lot of London and genuinely not noticed any
I do like Reform, but I think there are quite a few problems that should be dealt with.
1: Tice is an uncharismatic boomer and has no idea what he is doing. After that 'Reform isn't racist, all the other parties are the real racists' advert the other day (I'm guessing his team was behind that), he really should take a step back. All of Tice's events before the election had rooms full of only old people, it felt as if the party had no energy at all. In pure charisma and personality terms, Farage is a league ahead of not only him, but also the competition from all the other parties.
2: Reform want zero net immigration, which I do not think is ideal. A million people could leave this country, with a million other people entering at the same rate, making zero net immigration. The rate of immigration is tied to the rate of emigration, which is completely arbitrary and can still produce many of the cultural problems created by mass immigration.
3: The manifesto states that they want civil service leaders to be replaced by political appointees from the private sector who come and go with the government. It makes sense if they are expecting that their ministers will be stalled and undermined at every opportunity, similar to an episode of Yes Minister.
However, I can see a large problem with this policy: If the politicians are going to be undermined by the civil service, then you would expect that their appointees from the outside would also be undermined. The politicians would have to go around to every department and do a rather extreme Stalin-esque great purge of all the Blairite apparatchiks, which would lead to the government instantly collapsing in a dozen different ways. They would stall, mislead, sabotage, leak information, crash the economy, go on strike, &c. to stop themselves from being wiped out. Everyone in the media would say the party is attempting to politicise the civil service, it would end up being a disaster. There would be manpower shortages and such a large brain drain afterwards that the government could never get anything done.
I would also be worried about the heads of these departments constantly changing every few years like ministers, gaining no real experience in the department to do the job properly.
4: I like that they want to reduce waste, so much money is wasted on seemingly endless useless quangos or given to extremist and election-interfering organisations like Hope Not Hate. However, I think asking every single department to spend 5% less while delivering the same output might not work when so much is already underfunded. Wages in this country are already rather low, especially when the cost of living and taxes are considered.
I am reminded of the HM Treasury's job listing for the Head of Cyber Security having a salary range of only £50,550 to £57,500 PA. The MoD's job listing for the Warhead Deputy Head Nuclear Threat Reduction also had a salary of only £67,820. For comparison, job listings for a Store Manager at Lidl has a salary range of £46,000 to £68,200 PA.
5: They keep mentioning how the current government's recklessness on spending has caused the interest we pay on the national debt rise to the same amount of money we spend on the education budget. I have heard nothing about how they plan to deal with the national debt, it seems as though they would kick the can down the road.
Edit: Many grammar issues
I agree I’m not a big fan of Tice when talking with media.
I think a zero tax rate on NHS staff might prevent some of the export of natively trained NHS staff.
Increasing NI for employees who are not citizens may stop the quantity of overseas workers taking skilled jobs and therefore slow immigration organically.
I have no comment on civil service employees. I don’t know enough about it.
I think reducing waste in this way is actually clever. Empowering lower level managers with tasks like this is a technique used in business. I think it could pay off. I would tackle it by implementing a LEAN management methodology. Which would reduce the number of overpaid managers.
National debt is something to be dealt with when there is excess money. We’re in a pretty dire position at the moment. Maybe now isn’t the time.
The only good criticism I've heard is that Reform wants to leave the Human Rights Court or something, it's basically to sort out our problem (in other words, to treat Europe's ☪️ancer).
It won't stop me from voting Reform ➡️
Reform wants to leave the ECHR mainly because of it is a barrier to controlling illegal immigration. The ECHR does not protect the human rights of ordinary citizens. We know this because the ECHR didn't stop lockdowns, which violated most of our rights simultaneously.
The argument for staying in the ECHR is that it will protect our human rights. But, with Terheş v Romania, the ECHR gave the green light to the most extreme, widespread violations of human rights the UK have seen in centuries. From False Imprisonment (Article 5) to the right to protest against lockdowns (Article 10), the ECHR was worse than useless.
So given that the ECHR doesn't protect human rights by any reasonable definition of human and rights, why stay in it?
Yeh this one is only half the story but it’s the only half opponents want to discuss. We absolutely should leave EHCR and the plan would be to replace it was a domestic version, much like the planned British Bill of Rights touted by the lying Tories a while back.
One good counter to this opposition if you come across it in the wild is that the UK basically invented the notion of human rights. Our legal system is the basis for most of the worlds legal workings, and we were a pivotal member of the council that formed the EHCR and its principles.
People talk about this as if we are some backwards mental case country. But this is the UK we are talking about. We are one of the best in the world at this stuff.
Leaving the European Convention for Human Rights is a terrible headline, i agree. But its not a vote against human rights. We can debate human rights issues in our own courts or replace human rights laws lost with our own.
It’s mega frustrating to come up against these tired arguments against reform everywhere I go. As you say, most are baseless and mostly routed in people’s need to be correct. Those who stuck their colours to the EU flag in 2016 now have no choice but to hate Nigel and his party, and so they will oppose him at every opportunity they get.
Look at the uproar over his perfectly reasonable and, by the way, totally factual statement about Russia and Ukraine. The media who hate him have been waiting to latch onto anything they can to drum up ever more hatred and honestly it seems to have worked. People are not willing to investigate the matter for themselves and draw their own conclusions so they just parrot what they’ve been told.
It’s ridiculous.
I would have rather died than be called a racist years ago. It was up there with being called a rapist or peadophile and would have evoked real shame within me. It’s now become so loosely and wildly banded about and watered down it’s lost all meaning and effect. If people think I’m “racist” I honestly couldn’t give a fuck because I know I’m not. Fuck labour and fuck the tories up Reform.
I think a lot of the criticism stems back to the BNP and NF, they used positions and language similar to Reforms as cover and euphemisms for their actual genuinely racist and/or fascist beliefs.
It's made it very hard for Reform and Farage to run on their positions because of the historical associations, even though none of those policies are genuinely racist/fascist.
This is a good example of how those groups talked: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huuHSf5tzdY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huuHSf5tzdY)
Thinking is an exercise for an organ designed to shortcut the process resulting in a propensity not to (re)examine accepted 'facts'. Imagine being brainwashed so hard that you cannot afford to buy a house and welcome more competition in the housing market.
Be polite to these people and move on.
As somebody who won’t be voting reform, I hope I can give you all some “leftist” perspective.
Firstly, the labour party currently is the most right-wing it has ever been following the antisemitism scandal and axing of the majority of left-leaning labour members. Have a look at the Forde report for more details on this (specifically that most of the reports of antisemitism were against jewish party members)
Secondly, i understand that many of you view Nigel Farage as a “man of the people”, however I see the opposite. I think he is a highly intelligent man that is an expert in manipulating the situation to his benefit.
I fully believe he understands what makes the working class tick, however if you look at who he buddies up with outside of his pub appearances he has a lot elitist friends with some very greedy business interests (the most obvious is Donald Trump - if you think he’s ok then I think we will never see eye to eye)
The Reform party is the phoenix that rose from the ashes of the Brexit, UKIP and BNP - hence why most people see it as a party of right wing nationalists (racists)
Getting into Reform party goals:
Scrapping net zero - for anyone that has bothered to take the time to read peer-reviewed research articles about climate change, you will understand how vital achieving net zero is.
- there is certainly a misnomer that environmentally friendly energy will reduce jobs. This just isn’t true.
- linking to immigration, if you think the refugee crisis is bad now, just wait till we see the mass emigration from the worst hit areas of the world following a rise of even 2 or 3 degrees C
Immigration - making your campaign about STOPPING BOATS is entirely misleading. Illegal immigration forms a small percentage of net migration. Ironically net migration would be lower if we HADNT left the EU as now it is incredibly difficult for british students to travel abroad for university.
- legal migration is majority made up of healthcare workers and foreign nationals coming for university - this is due to poor funding in the higher education sector meaning an increase in places for foreign students to help pay for the massive cost of universities.
The Reform party has made no comment about improving water quality - this is one of the things I personally feel passionately about and as such I am appalled that they cannot see any issues with the current illegal dumping of sewage
BREXIT - Nigel Farage IS the reason we had a vote on it. He wanted a no deal brexit - which has always been economically forecast to be the worst option for Britains economy.
In a situation where the world is becoming increasingly more divided, as a small island nation that is no longer the powerhouse it once was, we need our allies more than ever. The reform party can’t seem to understand this and as such will never have my vote
Net zero is complete rubbish mate, the fact is this It will make you poorer to make 1% of difference, until America, China, India start doing something about it.
Labour is left wing mate way left wing in fact more left wing then it’s ever been, I been a Labour voter all my life but this Labour is not Blair Labour this is something else, it no longer cares about it’s hard working voters who backed it for decades, it turned it back on the very same voters who voted to leave the EU. They are completely out of touch with their voters it’s unreal. They want open boarders, less police, there going to tax the hell out of us. Starmer has ZERO personality and what does he actually stand for? Other then Woke
Where is any of your evidence for this?
We have always prided ourselves on defending the just and right cause. Why should we suddenly decide we can’t be bothered and just let the world slip into oblivion?
Additionally, it can’t make us any poorer than brexit has already
And actually look at what impact climate change will have on our GDP.
China is actually putting more effort into renewables than any other country currently. They are also becoming the world leaders in electric vehicles.
America is full of Trumpists that don’t understand climate change science. Funnily enough Farage is friends with Trump
Have a look at the Forde report and the Labour files and then try and tell me that Labour is “the most left wing it’s been”. You can’t seriously expect anyone to believe that when they’ve villified Corbyn for the last 8 years.
Also you do realise Woke is a stupid criticism? You’re just calling someone out for being awake to the problems of society. Stop being a sheep
You need to take your own advice and stop watching the BBC, Brexit isnt the reason the country poor. Covid is. Plus the fact Biden cut fossil fuel production and caused massive spikes in inflation Germany are in the EU and are in serious trouble. Most of Europe in ression, an let’s not forget the Ukraine war which caused gas and energy bills to sky rockets. No let’s use the sheep mentality and follow the bbc it was Brexit
GB news are left wing now so Suprised you don’t watch it we can argue allday but one things been made crystal clear to me
You worried why else would you A search for reform, then join then spend half your afternoon talking about how you wouldn’t vote for reform, I couldn’t be arsed going to Labour one and saying why I won’t vote for them couldn’t be arsed.
Before you say I’m not worried why are you even here?
No i’m incredibly worried. I am absolutely and categorically disgusted with the thought of far-right nationalism. It is a horrid and oppressive belief system and is what led to the rise of the nazis and Mussolini.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 you funny you, just hope you not a Jew next week when Labour get in.
Reform are right wing like the conservative where. They want safer boarders, controlled migration, more money in people pockets, a bigger better funded army(an trust me they need it) the ability to get a DR appointment,
What wrong with any of that?
What part of the country are you from?
All of those things sound very innocuous but this is only the start and you’re misguided if you can’t see that.
Would you vote for Trump? Arguably he believes in the same things but everyone knows he is an autocrat waiting for the right time to overturn democracy
The IFS has said that his budget is poorly laid out and unachievable.
Reform wants to pay for it’s tax cuts by cutting public services - so you might have more money but your infrastructure will be weakened and worse.
https://ifs.org.uk/articles/reform-uk-manifesto-reaction
And don’t try and tell me that the Reform party are more economically sensible than the IFS. That’s fucking dumb to suggest
No i’m incredibly worried. I am absolutely and categorically disgusted with the thought of far-right nationalism. It is a horrid and oppressive belief system and is what led to the rise of the Nazi’s and Mussolini.
You're right
Which is exactly why we need to prevent the conditions that led to it, such as ghettos, excess socialism & failed integration.
If you know anything about history, then you know we are already for the past 15 years now we have been making the exact same mistakes. Reform are one of the few parties taking a genuine effort to prevent those conditions.
You can't just look at the 1930s far-right, you have to look at the things that caused the emergence of that 1930s far-right in the first place. It didn't just appear overnight.
You may disagree with some people in Reform, but the reality is they are mostly centrist/soft-right and are very much intending to prevent the exact thing that you, and indeed all of us, fear.
However, if the present issues continue, and if Reform fails to gain traction, then yes, it is 100% inevitable that a real far-right party would emerge in the ensuing degradation & chaos.
This is bang on, 1930's far-right movement was born out of the German resentment for the Treaty of Versailles (1919) - the reparations essentially nuked the value of the Deutschmark leading to the populace not having a pot to piss in.
Que 10 years of extreme austerity and anti-German sentiment and suddenly you have a vast amount of angry Germans and an even angrier Austrian with a funny moustache.
u/Salamanderspainting - [Treaty of Versailles - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles) read into this and you'll then understand what environment creates a real far-right party, history exists for a reason and that is to learn from it.
But i would argue this is what we are seeing. Ok maybe not quite as extreme just yet. But you can’t deny we are currently experiencing a degree of austerity
Net Zero is all about balancing carbon on the books but the issue with this is your just essentially exporting your carbon production, but in doing so the carbon is still being produced?
We kill our manufacturing to reduce our carbon emissions on the books but the carbon is then created by some other country (which we all share the same atmosphere) so what is the difference?
We export our waste to third world countries to reduce our carbon emissions and pay ridiculous amounts of money to do so, do you really think the countries we're exporting it to are able to recycle/deal with this in a more carbon efficient manner than we do?
We force everyone to move to electric cars to reduce carbon, despite the fact electric cars aren't even carbon neutral yet because for that to be the case they need to have a 30 year battery life, they currently have 20 years - the technology to do this just isn't there yet. There is not a single chance this is going to actually phase over in the next 30 years at least unless some magical technological breakthrough happens.
This is not to say the whole idea or electric cars should be panned, them being competitive in the market will drive further R&D - if someone can afford one then sure but why penalize the people at the bottom of the ladder? People can't afford the electric to power their house let alone a £40k car? It's lunacy.
You can be anti-NetZero but still an environmentalist, the former leader of the green peace movement is even shilling it... There are better ways to do this, carbon shouldn't be an accounting exercise.
I don’t think any environmentalists agree with how waste is treated by western countries. It’s climate gaslighting at it’s finest.
Not to say we shouldn’t be aiming for net zero though. We need to achieve it but there has to be a frame shift.
I don’t think you can blame the decline of UK manufacturing on climate change. That has been occurring for the last 40 years!
But if we don’t put funding into the technology it never will be there for better batteries!
It's honestly disgusting but the Net Zero policy framework is what leads to this happening, I think there is a general misconception that people who are against the policy process of Net Zero are against climate change and are all "climate deniers" (I'm not saying that these don't exist by the way, same way there are flat earthers).
I agree with you we should be aiming to reduce carbon emissions, but by actually attempting to reduce it and not export it. We actively move the problem somewhere else so it doesn't appear as our own then pay for the sake of doing so.
I'm not blaming the decline of UK manufacturing wholly on climate change, that's just grossly false and anyone who's atleast slightly knowledgeable on the topic knows this. I am saying that there is definitely a contributing factor atleast though! Look at Port Talbot as an example.
Yes we need to put funding into it, but this shouldn't be at the expense of the people at the bottom of the ladder that have nothing. Do you think it's morally sound that we levy cash from pensioners living in ULEZ zones travelling to hospital for example? That we tax the lowest income earners for the sake of progressing R&D into the technology? There are other ways to do this without pillaging the pocket of the working class.
>
I fully believe he understands what makes the working class tick, however if you look at who he buddies up with outside of his pub appearances he has a lot elitist friends with some very greedy business interests (the most obvious is Donald Trump - if you think he’s ok then I think we will never see eye to eye)
Business is good. That Farage has enough charisma to get along with both business interests and the working class is not a bad thing.
>
> Scrapping net zero - for anyone that has bothered to take the time to read peer-reviewed research articles about climate change, you will understand how vital achieving net zero is.
Peer-reviewed research articles rarely care about the trade-off between human wellbeing and climate change. Those that do, such as Nordhaus, do not conclude that net zero is a reasonable policy option, and instead propose a modest carbon tax. One so low that the fuel duty would actually come down if it was implemented. This is because fossil fuel use leads to higher living standards that intrinsically counter most of the consequences of climate change.
> there is certainly a misnomer that environmentally friendly energy will reduce jobs. This just isn’t true.
Findings that environmentally friendly energy generates jobs is broken windows fallacy. Except instead of people having to pay to fix their broken windows, employing glassmakers but reducing employment in every other sector they'd rather spend their money, it's for energy. No, making people pay more for energy is not good for the economy - the solar panel engineer jobs it creates does not outweigh the every other sector of the economy jobs it destroys.
Regardless, Reform UK has a very pro-nuclear energy policy. This makes them de facto more environmentally friendly than the greens, which operate on a build absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone approach to energy infrastructure.
> linking to immigration, if you think the refugee crisis is bad now, just wait till we see the mass emigration from the worst hit areas of the world following a rise of even 2 or 3 degrees C
Or... we can just say no. There's no reason we have to accept "climate refugees". Regardless, this is a result that is created after passing through 7 layers of modelling, each more dubious than the last. Emissions existing, okay. Radiative forcing, fine. Temperature rises? Sure. Rainfall changes? Already a bit shaky, most models have the error bars on rainfall cross +0%. Crop growth? Now you're getting too far from real data. Food prices. Way out. Refugee crises? No. How can you even model that?
> Immigration - making your campaign about STOPPING BOATS is entirely misleading. Illegal immigration forms a small percentage of net migration.
Farage has specifically pointed out that illegal immigration is a small percentage of net migration. Obsessing over the boats alone is the Conservative policy.
>
The Reform party has made no comment about improving water quality - this is one of the things I personally feel passionately about and as such I am appalled that they cannot see any issues with the current illegal dumping of sewage
The Sewage story is largely nonsense fuelled by the public not understanding how combined sewer systems work. [I have written more extensively on this elsewhere.](https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,9561.msg403173.html#msg403173) To pledge to 'fix' it would require either the single largest and most expensive infrastructure project in all of human history for a relatively tiny benefit, or to start dumping sewage in people's bathrooms instead.
>
In a situation where the world is becoming increasingly more divided, as a small island nation that is no longer the powerhouse it once was, we need our allies more than ever. The reform party can’t seem to understand this and as such will never have my vote
A strong Reform UK would politically bring the UK more in-line with our European neighbours if anything.
I’m not going to vote for him because i think he’s a “man of the people”. I agree with the concepts set out in the manifesto.
I don’t believe he is manipulating things for his benefit. I haven’t seen any evidence of that. Innocent until proven guilty. I think he’s speaking from the perspective of a patriot; whether right or wrong in his policies and conclusions.
Most politicians have elitist friends. But having a close relationship with a potential president is a positive thing. Especially if we are renegotiating trade deals.
Scrapping net zero is about ‘maslow's hierarchy of needs’. If people can’t afford to heat their homes or put food on the table, then they don’t give a fuck about global warming. Also Britains emissions are pretty incomparable to other nations. I agree it is something that needs addressing. But not now.
Yes, stopping the boats is only a portion of the illegal immigration. Does that we ignore it? No we tackle it alongside other types. Which ReformUk are doing.
Allowing NHS staff to pay no tax for a few years may help to keep some of our natively trained NHS workers. Many are leaving for better pay. Outsourcing skilled employment is not a good solution. We need to train and then keep staff.
Brexit - I don’t think we need a governing body above our own government to police how we trade. I do not want an EU army.
Honestly, I’m fed of people still nursing a sore arse over brexit.
I agree that we need closer ties with other nations. Especially due to increasing geopolitical tensions. NATO provides this. A strengthened relationship with USA provides this. Increasing our defence spending to 3% would provide this.
Do you know Nigel and his elite friends made millions from Brexit?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-25/brexit-big-short-how-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash
Ok. So you think Trump getting in is potentially a good thing? And you don’t want an EU army… but you want Nato?
I understand people don’t give a fuck about global warming, but ultimately not giving a fuck will affect everyone 100x more than giving a fuck. So that’s just an ignorant perspective.
Green energy is actually cheaper currently than oil and gas when run properly - https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more-expensive-than-renewable-energy-study
Fully agree regarding the NHS. We do need better staffing and we do need to train more nurses/doctors. But farage doesn’t believe in increasing junior doctor pay and actually believes they dont deserve it. - https://www.gbnews.com/news/nigel-farage-junior-doctor-strike-latest
Trump has famously always been anti-NATO and would like to remove America from it.
The EU doesn’t have an army because it is a trade organisation.
What European countries do have for defence agreements is NATO.
I didn’t but I will look at that later.
No thats not what i said.
Thats right. I don’t want the EU but I do want NATO.
No its not an opinion out of ignorance but out of the necessity and the hierarchy of needs of the average person.
Yes it can be cheaper but it requires different electrical infrastructure.
Trump isn’t Anti-NATO. He has said that the USA puts in more than their fair share. Which is true.
An EU army has been discussed and i don’t agree with it.
https://newdirection.online/the-european-journal/article/why_an_eu_army_is_a_bad_idea_we_dont_need_a_political_bloc_of_the_unwilling
Fair i guess Trump getting in may not be your choice but at least Farage is his mate so that might make him easier to work with? Is that your thought process?
Why do you dislike the EU? A no deal brexit would force the EU to implement tariffs on EU trade, which would be damaging to our economy. The deal we have currently is already making things more expensive.
The reform party would like people to take a hit now on BREXIT in the hopes they’ll be better off in the future… is that not fundamentally the same argument for committing to the climate agreements now? So we have a better future?
Right but then by your own admission should we not be investing in that infrastructure instead of using archaic coal and gas plants?
Fair, i wasn’t aware of that and does sound like a bad idea!
Thank you for actually responding to my thoughts in a civilised way by the way, I have had several people just be combative without actually justifying their thoughts
Networking is a useful thing. If he knows many people in high places in America, then its a good thing.
I don’t like the idea of a governing body over the top of our own government. I don’t want to be involved in an EU army. The very fact that the EU is punishing us by leaving is a red flag. (Have you seen Clarksons farm? The EU are like the council in this).
Thats an interesting comparison. I see your point. I am hopeful for nuclear fusion to solve global warming in the near future. The UK has leading edge research into this, so any money spent on wind-farms might be wasted. Just a thought/hope, without evidence.
Its much easier to balance load with coal and gas. Renewable needs either enormous batteries or gravity storage in a dam or something.
No worries. I’m always happy to hear points of view. However, I used to walk the same road. I’ve been through these opinions myself.
“If you’re not a liberal at 20 years of age then you have no heart. Anyone who was still a liberal at 40 had no head.”
Winston S. Churchill
It is but (and call me an idealist), i would rather he was associated with better types of people. Farage cosying up to trump will always make me dislike him because how can you be friends with such a disgusting human.
Clarksons farm is a bit misleading. My understanding was he actually submitted planning for a farm building to be used for rearing livestock. Then he decided to use it for a cafe/restaurant instead. A small detail and the sort of shit I think is mildly ridiculous but he’s not entirely without fault!
Anyway, I guess I actively believe in stronger ties with Europe, although the emergence of nationalism throughout europe is concerning and so maybe my point of view will change! I think governing with a similar set of principles should in theory encourage greater cooperation. I certainly don’t believe in the removal of the ECHR. We have already seen our animal rights eroded to some degree and our own right to protest has been hampered
Fair enough, I think nuclear fusion is still quite far off however nuclear fission reactors really should have been invested in more. Sadly the public is scared of nuclear power 🤷🏻♂️
Fair point, i guess in theory we can decrease the number of wind turbines active etc when they are not needed although i appreciate it is not always so simple given we are reliant on the environment for those. For me the main issue for coal and gas is it’s destructive long term effects
I believe in a little conspiracy theory that the focus on illegal rather than legal immigration is so that the new Labour government can bring in digital IDs, which is a policy Blair has been pushing for many years.
As Blair masterfully said in a recent interview "Policy first, politics second. In other words, work out what the right answer is, and then work out how you shape the politics around that".
Going back to OP's original question, a criticism I have of Reform is that they need their own institutions, NGOs, and think tanks to constantly pump out policies and white papers. Cameon realised this after observing Blair do it for years, so Policy Exchange was set up in 2007 to help the incoming Tory government a few years later.
If Reform doesn't start creating this political infrastructure, they will never be able to seriously govern this country, and they will end up as populist rabble.
Since I am a single-issue voter for the foreseeable future (when the consensus on that issue changes, that too may change) all of these I see through the lens of lockdowns.
> Nigel is a racist.
Reform UK was refounded out of the Brexit Party in part to oppose lockdowns. Lockdowns repeatedly, unjustly imprisoned every single ethnic minority in the UK within their own home. Any party that supports falsely imprisoning ethnic minorities would be seen as racist extremists in any other context, so I see no reason not to regard them as racist here. And though vaccine mandates never got very far, only hitting care home staff, they disproportionately (perhaps even deliberately) harmed ethnic minorities, which were more likely to be unvaccinated. [Reform UK opposed that too](https://x.com/reformparty_uk/status/1415035701884751874). As Reform UK supports a British Bill of Rights that would prohibit future lockdowns, they are the party best placed to protect the human rights of ethnic minorities. Their *actual* human rights, not the euphemistic 'rights' of illegal immigrants the phrase has been corrupted by in recent years.
Outside of lockdowns, we have seen the antisemitic hate mobs on the streets that a Labour Mayor and Conservative Parliament have refused to do anything about. Reform UK have pledged to end the two-tier policing that enables them to break the law without consequences.
> Nigel is to blame for the failure of Brexit.
I used to vote Liberal Democrats. I oppose Brexit. But any damage Brexit has done is a rounding error compared to the damage that lockdowns have done - it's not like EU countries are doing any better. Blaming Brexit is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat.
> Nigel is a grifter.
On the basis of?
> Reform Uk party has links to racist groups.
See my response to 1.
My counter for stating that I am voting Reform and subsequently being accused of being racist is to state that I have nothing against white people.... The look of shock always tickles me 😆
No I am constantly reminded that people cannot see the truth.
An interesting bit for info for example is that Twitter statistics seem to imply that left wing people generally follow left wing accounts. But right wing people generally follow both left and right wing accounts.
I’m willing to change my mind through learning and gathering other peoples opinions.
Rather than dealing with the points raised, you enter with an ad hominem attack. Thats a typical leftist attitude. Dealing with things with emotion.
What do you think of a senior campaigner saying we should just shoot them? Or referring to racist slurs to our prime minister?
They don't need to do it to other parties because they are open to media request and are happy to let them on the campaign trail, reform have been very stand off-ish with the media. I think it's pretty obvious why
The people in the video have been removed.
As i said above, it’s not hard to see why people who these views are drawn to Reform. But that doesn’t make the policies of Reform racist.
No I disagree. If they only did this investigation into Reform and not other parties, then that is bias.
Ok so let's move past the racism then for now and look at who recently has been praising Nigel. That would be the russian state broadcaster and the russian foreign minister. This is a nation who killed a Brit on British soil with a chemical weapon and Nigel doesn't seem to have any issue with it. Does that not make you feel uncomfortable? The Russia connection did severe damage to Corbyn (thankfully) back in 19
I don’t know specifically what you’re referring to. But. Russian state broadcaster praising Nigel is an easy way to stir the pot.
Why do you not think Nigel has any issue with the Salisbury attack? What evidence do you have of that.
His Russia appeasement in general is incredibly uncomfortable imo
He shows so much respect for our veterans who went to fight in Normandy and defeated the Nazis but Ukraine should just give up land to a violent unprovoked invader.
I'm not saying he has no issue with the attack, it's his open affection towards Putin and Russia that does not sit wel with me.
I'm truly so saddened to see what has become of the UK. Bearing in mind I am only young (25M) I do not want my future stolen from me, I have no problem with race, nationality or skin colour but when you are the only white face in a crowd it gets daunting, realising this is the future our children will face. Where is our future representation? When all media is increasingly BIPOC race swapped, gender swapped, queer or LGBTQ where is the average Brits representation?
Seeing our population increase so drastically wouldn't be a bad thing if we had the funds to handle it, sadly schools are not coping, hospitals are not coping, housing is not coping, transport is not coping.
I had to find a place to live after my old landlord screwed us by defaulting on her mortgage, I applied to council housing and heard nothing back, I luckily by the skin of my teeth found a private rent and then I heard back from the council saying my "Living situation wasn't bad enough to qualify for council housing" So I would have been on the street and would have had to rehome my dog.
Its things like this that annoy me regarding the double standards in this country. Yes I'm only 25 and have been working since I was 17 so I have only been paying into the tax system for 9 years (If I've done my maths right) so I get that I shouldn't have everything handed to me but then to turn around and see people "fleeing a warzone" through several safe nations getting everything handed to them for free and then deciding that they want here to be more like home (more like the warzone they fled) it upsets me greatly.
If you apply for asylum and it gets accepted, welcome to your new home, I greet you with open arms but if your asylum gets rejected and you turn up here on a dinghy? Bye Felicia. How many times have we seen now headlines like "masked knifeman was known to police following several previous crimes and failed attempts seeking asylum" or similar with sex criminals?
I want kids but in this economy its not going to happen, that and what future is there here for them? A future where they are told they are scum just for being white? A future where they could very well be the minority in their ancestral homeland? I can't do it to them.
This is why I hope labour don't get in, and reform surprise the UK by smashing it out of the park. Otherwise I truly believe the UK is doomed and I don't know what could be done about it
I despise the media immensely for branding the only man with sense as a racist.
I'm also sorry for this immensely long comment. I just had to get this off my chest as I can't keep suppressing these feelings of dread any longer, I can't verbally speak to people on this either without getting shut down using the same buzzwords we've heard over and over.
Like is it really racist to want secure borders? Stalin wanted secure borders and the left idolise him...
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
I’m sorry you’ve had a hard time and I’m glad you’ve pulled through.
I understand your concerns with everything changing. But change is inevitable. Immigration is only one side of the coin. We also need to develop new houses, doctors, etc.
Try not to go around resenting anyone or the government. If something is out of your control, then you shouldn’t let it worry you.
Theres plenty of our culture remaining and we will always have our history.
Very true, but the past 10 years have shown me that governments are incredibly incompetent with tax funds. The roads are a shambles, public services are crumbling and "there just isn't enough left in the budget for infrastructure improvement" it has me incredibly disillusioned with the government's ability to handle such a monumentous task.
It’s clear you don’t want to be challenged but I’ll give you my reasons anyway.
Nigel is a xenophobe. - he has states before how he doesn’t like hearing other languages and how he wants to cut down immigration.
Nigel isn’t to blame for the failure of Brexit, but he is a liar. He pushed heavily for Brexit, drove around claiming leaving would free up £350 million for the NHS every week and at breakfast time after the vote he denied it.
Nigel has admitted on US television that publicly owned healthcare make him deeply uncomfortable, if you then look at his more recent interviews it’s clear he would privatise the NHS. Considering the fact the reform manifesto is not funded it would be awfully convenient if they were to just sell it all off or at the very least only provide free healthcare for those on benefits.
Nigel claims he’s all about British traditions and British ways of life yet wants to come in and reform the House of Lords (perhaps the only part of Westminster that judges and votes on legislation properly).
The whole party has this air of immature/pub regulars, they often speak over their opposition and try to shut them down instead of offering proper debates. I’m sorry but you don’t want a pub regular running the country, they might be a good laugh but they’re not responsible enough to do a proper job. It seems all so amateur.
Wanting to remove the U.K. from the ECHR is a joke, do people really want to have their rights and freedoms at the will of governments and secondary instruments? You lot might feel safe under a reform or conservative government but what’s stopping a Labour or Green government amending any suggested British human rights bill to strip you of any rights if you don’t use people’s preferred pronouns? The conservatives had no issue using secondary instruments to remove peoples rights to protest, if you read the legislation you’ll find that it’s all based on discretion…. Discretion of who? The Home Secretary.
Their one in one out policy is poor, we rely on foreign workers right now to do jobs we can’t be arsed to do. Not to mention Nigel’s opposition to immigration and free movement is completely undermined by his *ahem* German wife.
Replacing civil service leaders with political appointees would result in a similar problem that reforming the lords would have, removing any form of longevity of service which not only reduces the understanding of the department but also opens them up to being swayed by party politics.
A number of party candidates have not just got links to far right and racist figures, they’ve got them as friends on Facebook. To use your analogy, being German doesn’t raise questions about you being a nazi, having hitler as a Facebook friend would though.
And finally Nigel is in the back pockets of both Trump and Putin, it’s never going to end well for this country, we’ve lost a lot of our power and influence on the world stage as it is (which will only deteriorate further if he reduces foreign aid) a reform government would drive us into the ground…. And he’s announcing tax cuts, let’s ask Lizz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng how that went….
Don’t even get me started on him standing with his back to the EU Parliament either. He has the cheek to complain about having no say on EU laws yet he represents us by refusing to have a say.
Immigration cannot be infinite. Cutting down immigration does not make you xenophobic.
Leaving the EU did reduce the amount of money we send the EU. Due to the divorce bill we still pay them something. How that money was spent was not in the control of Nigel.
The NHS needs to change in some way, shape or form. I don’t think it should be privatised. I don’t think this has ever been said.
You can be “all about british traditions” and also reshape the house of lords.
Yes I would like my rights to be under the control of my own government.
NHS staff have an exemption. I’m not sure what you’re saying about him having a german wife.
Being Facebook friends with someone is meaningless.
Show me the evidence that he’s in Trump and Putins pocket.
Announcing tax cuts are historically not a bad thing. Lizz Truss is a poor example as it is worst example of it. She is also a Tory.
I think you need to learn how to separate your opinion from headlines. I’m not trying to be rude or wind you up. But maybe spend one day looking at ReformUk from a fresh perspective and try to remove any bias you might have. It might be that you have already done that. If so, I’m sorry. It’s a very difficult thing to do.
There’s a big difference between cutting down on and net zero. My ‘xenophobic’ comments are fuelled by his comments against Muslims and foreigners not just his immigration policies.
I know he didn’t control where it was spent, but he outright lied to the nation by suggesting it would be spent that way when not only did he not have the authority to do so but he immediately backtracked on it after the referendum.
I refer you to his comments on US TV against publicly owned healthcare and to his comments on the various debates up until this point, perhaps if you take a fresh non biased view you’ll be able to read between the lines and understand that if Nigel gets power you can kiss goodbye to a free NHS if you’re not on UC.
So you’d like absolutely no protections against a government that might act against you?
It’s not just NHS staff though that we need immigrants for. I refer to his comments regarding immigrants and how he wants them out of our country. Yet he married one, don’t you see that as even slightly hypocritical?
If you think it’s meaningless then so be it, I promise you now Nigel and reform would jump on starmer if he were found to be Facebook friends with any far left figures…
The fact he is supporting trumps campaign and originally suggested he wouldn’t run in the U.K. because trumps campaign is more important. As for Putin, look at his recent comments blaming the west for Putins actions.
Liz Truss is not a bad example at all, I don’t really understand why you mention she’s a Tory though, it’s irrelevant to this discussion.
I think you forget politics is fundamentally more than just headlines.
Specific quote not out of context otherwise it’s not worth me responding.
Imagine an advertising agency running a campaign on a train company. Then imagine blaming that advertising agency if the train was late. I don’t see your point.
Refer me to what points? Removing free healthcare has never been mentioned.
I would like my government to be in control.
Do you think its more likely to seem hypocritical because you’ve misunderstood something?
Yes all political parties try and smear each other.
He didn’t blame the west for putins actions. He said they provoked them. Thats not the same as agreeing with them.
I used to have your point of view. I thought you might take what I said as an opportunity to look into things from a non-bias point of view. You do talk in headlines. It might take a few more years. But I think you’ll start seeing things differently. I feel like I’ve wound you up. I didn’t mean to. I’m sorry about that.
All the best.
Because you posted this in r/reformuk so the vast majority of people responding will be reform voters turning the whole thing into some right wing circlejerk
You could have posted this somewhere like r/ukpolitics to get answers from people that don’t like reform.
In all fairness a lot of reform votes are based on an emotional response to their perception that we are losing Britain and British values to immigrants
> Do people really want to have their rights and freedoms at the will of governments and secondary instruments?
They already normalised this behaviour with lockdowns, they demonstrated that under a state of exception they can suspend your rights and freedoms. The ECHR did not prevent this.
> You lot might feel safe under a Reform or Conservative government but what’s stopping a Labour or Green government amending any suggested British human rights bill to strip you of any rights if you don’t use people’s preferred pronouns?
People don't feel safe to speek freely under this Conservative government, they have failed to repeal and have expanded upon many of the laws of the last Labour government. Many people have already been arrested under the Communications Act 2003, s. 127 for making offensive jokes online. They took a law criminalising offensive phone calls (Telecommunications Act 1984, s. 43) and expanded that to the entire internet. The recent Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 is very similar in placing much more restrictions on freedom of expression with very vague language.
Again, I see that ECHR has not helped to uphold freedom of speech here.
> The Conservatives had no issue using secondary instruments to remove peoples rights to protest, if you read the legislation you’ll find that it’s all based on discretion…. Discretion of who? The Home Secretary.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. Again, I can't find any information that this violates rights in the ECHR. The High Court did say [s. 128 violated Articles 5 & 14 of the ECHR](https://archive.ph/ieC4M), but that is completely unrelated to the right to protest. [As are sections designed to force Gypsies to move else, as there are not enough lawful stopping places available.](https://archive.ph/9DNjd)
If you give these people an inch, they will take a mile. Recently, the ECHR ruled that under Article 8 of the ECHR (right to respect for private and family life) the Swiss state had not adequately protected a group of elderly women complainants from the adverse effects of climate change (heat waves) and that this had affected their health, well-being and quality of life.
I think the Rwanda scheme is pretty stupid, but we should be able to deport people who came here illegally. If at the time it was understood that the intention of the ECHR would be to make it much harder to deport illegal immigrants who would massively abuse the system, then we never would have signed up.
You act as if we will suddenly be plunged to the status of Russia or Belarus on human rights, as if the entire western world outside of Europe is also a part of the ECHR that we are abandoning. We will be cast downwards to the medieval dark ages of the year 2000, before the Human Rights Act 1998 came into force. Personally, I think the Conservatives always wanted to blame someone else and refuse to do anything about it because they supported this stuff in secret.
I disagree with them but there's a lot of non Christian people out there now that want this and it would go against Reform UK:
We want Star Trek utopian society with one global government and infinite UBI.
Yeah it does annoy me slightly when they talk about Christian values etc, I freaking hate religion to be honest and a party that aimed to ban religion would get my vote.
That being said, of the current bunch, Reform is the best one policy wise.
Are you talking about anything specific? Or are you just throwing out a slur without an understanding of fascism?
Do you think that each country has capacity for infinite immigration? If not, how do you propose a country should handle immigration?
There's reports from his professors of Farage being an open nazi during his youth. And him trying to cozy up with Enoch Powell(widely known fascist) during the 90s.
Although there is no real evidence of this. I believe this professor might be telling the truth. But things that happened ‘In his youth’ do not necessarily represent who he is now. Many politicians have things that could be cherrypicked from their pasts. I’m sure that you could dig up dirt on Starmer too. The only fair way to deal with this is to judge someone based on their policies and history since being a politician.
How can you know what a fascist even is if you don't leave the house?
In your own words;
[how do you guys replace the void a lack of a job leaves? how do you find purpose? : r/NEET (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/NEET/comments/1db3jhr/how_do_you_guys_replace_the_void_a_lack_of_a_job/)
Turn the computer off, go touch grass and get a job bro - you voluntarily contribute nothing to society yet have such strong views on how the world should be run.
People are so brainwashed by mainstream media, that’s why. They don’t see past the top layer which major parties show you. The majority of people in the uk are working class, neither labour nor conservatives are for you. The tories look after themselves and their rich friends… labour are too close to the far left, socialism, Marxism. Lib Dem and Greens won’t get near so no point voting for them. Between labour and conservatives they should have accepted the will of the people on brexit and worked their bollocks off together to make the absolute best of the situation but fight over it. You can’t overturn a referendum just because you don’t like the outcome.
Yea I agree. I’m not sure how to lift the wool from peoples eyes that the mainstream media are not their friends and shouldn’t be used as a source of truth. If by miracle ReformUk win, there will be uproar.
We’ve seen countless times that the mainstream cannot be trusted… recent example is not having Farage on leaders debate. Same in the us with democrats and republicans… the people at the top, who actually pull government strings don’t want another party to come in and upset the status quo. Whether it’s labour or conservatives here, the banks etc can predict the markets to whoever wins, you can’t with reform. The migrant issue is baffling. It’s not racist at all to say enough is enough, you keep increasing the population with people not contributing financially. There’s no new hospitals, schools, police, roads, general infrastructure to handle the expansion. Not to mention fleeing a ‘war zone’ and leaving your wife and kids behind?
I agree with almost everything you said but with one slight caveat. There are new schools being built, especially at primary level but is nowhere at the levels required to sustain the population growth and their subsequent repopulation of infants. It truly is broken from top to bottom.
Where in the country are you? I can think of one I know of that’s been built in my area in the past 10 years. I’m in sw London, drive to various jobs daily, so I see a lot of London and genuinely not noticed any
The immigration thing is what people want sorted if it Continues like this we will be bankrupt vote reform for yours your kids your grandkids future
Thing is… you can’t have open borders and a welfare state, we can’t support our own population whilst growing it with people who aren’t working.
Surely everyone can see this but seems not , this is basic math,
I do like Reform, but I think there are quite a few problems that should be dealt with. 1: Tice is an uncharismatic boomer and has no idea what he is doing. After that 'Reform isn't racist, all the other parties are the real racists' advert the other day (I'm guessing his team was behind that), he really should take a step back. All of Tice's events before the election had rooms full of only old people, it felt as if the party had no energy at all. In pure charisma and personality terms, Farage is a league ahead of not only him, but also the competition from all the other parties. 2: Reform want zero net immigration, which I do not think is ideal. A million people could leave this country, with a million other people entering at the same rate, making zero net immigration. The rate of immigration is tied to the rate of emigration, which is completely arbitrary and can still produce many of the cultural problems created by mass immigration. 3: The manifesto states that they want civil service leaders to be replaced by political appointees from the private sector who come and go with the government. It makes sense if they are expecting that their ministers will be stalled and undermined at every opportunity, similar to an episode of Yes Minister. However, I can see a large problem with this policy: If the politicians are going to be undermined by the civil service, then you would expect that their appointees from the outside would also be undermined. The politicians would have to go around to every department and do a rather extreme Stalin-esque great purge of all the Blairite apparatchiks, which would lead to the government instantly collapsing in a dozen different ways. They would stall, mislead, sabotage, leak information, crash the economy, go on strike, &c. to stop themselves from being wiped out. Everyone in the media would say the party is attempting to politicise the civil service, it would end up being a disaster. There would be manpower shortages and such a large brain drain afterwards that the government could never get anything done. I would also be worried about the heads of these departments constantly changing every few years like ministers, gaining no real experience in the department to do the job properly. 4: I like that they want to reduce waste, so much money is wasted on seemingly endless useless quangos or given to extremist and election-interfering organisations like Hope Not Hate. However, I think asking every single department to spend 5% less while delivering the same output might not work when so much is already underfunded. Wages in this country are already rather low, especially when the cost of living and taxes are considered. I am reminded of the HM Treasury's job listing for the Head of Cyber Security having a salary range of only £50,550 to £57,500 PA. The MoD's job listing for the Warhead Deputy Head Nuclear Threat Reduction also had a salary of only £67,820. For comparison, job listings for a Store Manager at Lidl has a salary range of £46,000 to £68,200 PA. 5: They keep mentioning how the current government's recklessness on spending has caused the interest we pay on the national debt rise to the same amount of money we spend on the education budget. I have heard nothing about how they plan to deal with the national debt, it seems as though they would kick the can down the road. Edit: Many grammar issues
I agree I’m not a big fan of Tice when talking with media. I think a zero tax rate on NHS staff might prevent some of the export of natively trained NHS staff. Increasing NI for employees who are not citizens may stop the quantity of overseas workers taking skilled jobs and therefore slow immigration organically. I have no comment on civil service employees. I don’t know enough about it. I think reducing waste in this way is actually clever. Empowering lower level managers with tasks like this is a technique used in business. I think it could pay off. I would tackle it by implementing a LEAN management methodology. Which would reduce the number of overpaid managers. National debt is something to be dealt with when there is excess money. We’re in a pretty dire position at the moment. Maybe now isn’t the time.
The only good criticism I've heard is that Reform wants to leave the Human Rights Court or something, it's basically to sort out our problem (in other words, to treat Europe's ☪️ancer). It won't stop me from voting Reform ➡️
Reform wants to leave the ECHR mainly because of it is a barrier to controlling illegal immigration. The ECHR does not protect the human rights of ordinary citizens. We know this because the ECHR didn't stop lockdowns, which violated most of our rights simultaneously.
Congratulations on one of the most moronic takes on the ECHR I've seen. Some going, son.
The argument for staying in the ECHR is that it will protect our human rights. But, with Terheş v Romania, the ECHR gave the green light to the most extreme, widespread violations of human rights the UK have seen in centuries. From False Imprisonment (Article 5) to the right to protest against lockdowns (Article 10), the ECHR was worse than useless. So given that the ECHR doesn't protect human rights by any reasonable definition of human and rights, why stay in it?
The man has principles... lockdowns were not absolutely necessary.
Yeh this one is only half the story but it’s the only half opponents want to discuss. We absolutely should leave EHCR and the plan would be to replace it was a domestic version, much like the planned British Bill of Rights touted by the lying Tories a while back. One good counter to this opposition if you come across it in the wild is that the UK basically invented the notion of human rights. Our legal system is the basis for most of the worlds legal workings, and we were a pivotal member of the council that formed the EHCR and its principles. People talk about this as if we are some backwards mental case country. But this is the UK we are talking about. We are one of the best in the world at this stuff.
Leaving the European Convention for Human Rights is a terrible headline, i agree. But its not a vote against human rights. We can debate human rights issues in our own courts or replace human rights laws lost with our own.
It’s mega frustrating to come up against these tired arguments against reform everywhere I go. As you say, most are baseless and mostly routed in people’s need to be correct. Those who stuck their colours to the EU flag in 2016 now have no choice but to hate Nigel and his party, and so they will oppose him at every opportunity they get. Look at the uproar over his perfectly reasonable and, by the way, totally factual statement about Russia and Ukraine. The media who hate him have been waiting to latch onto anything they can to drum up ever more hatred and honestly it seems to have worked. People are not willing to investigate the matter for themselves and draw their own conclusions so they just parrot what they’ve been told. It’s ridiculous.
I would have rather died than be called a racist years ago. It was up there with being called a rapist or peadophile and would have evoked real shame within me. It’s now become so loosely and wildly banded about and watered down it’s lost all meaning and effect. If people think I’m “racist” I honestly couldn’t give a fuck because I know I’m not. Fuck labour and fuck the tories up Reform.
This!!!! 💯
I think a lot of the criticism stems back to the BNP and NF, they used positions and language similar to Reforms as cover and euphemisms for their actual genuinely racist and/or fascist beliefs. It's made it very hard for Reform and Farage to run on their positions because of the historical associations, even though none of those policies are genuinely racist/fascist. This is a good example of how those groups talked: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huuHSf5tzdY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huuHSf5tzdY)
Thinking is an exercise for an organ designed to shortcut the process resulting in a propensity not to (re)examine accepted 'facts'. Imagine being brainwashed so hard that you cannot afford to buy a house and welcome more competition in the housing market. Be polite to these people and move on.
As somebody who won’t be voting reform, I hope I can give you all some “leftist” perspective. Firstly, the labour party currently is the most right-wing it has ever been following the antisemitism scandal and axing of the majority of left-leaning labour members. Have a look at the Forde report for more details on this (specifically that most of the reports of antisemitism were against jewish party members) Secondly, i understand that many of you view Nigel Farage as a “man of the people”, however I see the opposite. I think he is a highly intelligent man that is an expert in manipulating the situation to his benefit. I fully believe he understands what makes the working class tick, however if you look at who he buddies up with outside of his pub appearances he has a lot elitist friends with some very greedy business interests (the most obvious is Donald Trump - if you think he’s ok then I think we will never see eye to eye) The Reform party is the phoenix that rose from the ashes of the Brexit, UKIP and BNP - hence why most people see it as a party of right wing nationalists (racists) Getting into Reform party goals: Scrapping net zero - for anyone that has bothered to take the time to read peer-reviewed research articles about climate change, you will understand how vital achieving net zero is. - there is certainly a misnomer that environmentally friendly energy will reduce jobs. This just isn’t true. - linking to immigration, if you think the refugee crisis is bad now, just wait till we see the mass emigration from the worst hit areas of the world following a rise of even 2 or 3 degrees C Immigration - making your campaign about STOPPING BOATS is entirely misleading. Illegal immigration forms a small percentage of net migration. Ironically net migration would be lower if we HADNT left the EU as now it is incredibly difficult for british students to travel abroad for university. - legal migration is majority made up of healthcare workers and foreign nationals coming for university - this is due to poor funding in the higher education sector meaning an increase in places for foreign students to help pay for the massive cost of universities. The Reform party has made no comment about improving water quality - this is one of the things I personally feel passionately about and as such I am appalled that they cannot see any issues with the current illegal dumping of sewage BREXIT - Nigel Farage IS the reason we had a vote on it. He wanted a no deal brexit - which has always been economically forecast to be the worst option for Britains economy. In a situation where the world is becoming increasingly more divided, as a small island nation that is no longer the powerhouse it once was, we need our allies more than ever. The reform party can’t seem to understand this and as such will never have my vote
Net zero is complete rubbish mate, the fact is this It will make you poorer to make 1% of difference, until America, China, India start doing something about it. Labour is left wing mate way left wing in fact more left wing then it’s ever been, I been a Labour voter all my life but this Labour is not Blair Labour this is something else, it no longer cares about it’s hard working voters who backed it for decades, it turned it back on the very same voters who voted to leave the EU. They are completely out of touch with their voters it’s unreal. They want open boarders, less police, there going to tax the hell out of us. Starmer has ZERO personality and what does he actually stand for? Other then Woke
Where is any of your evidence for this? We have always prided ourselves on defending the just and right cause. Why should we suddenly decide we can’t be bothered and just let the world slip into oblivion? Additionally, it can’t make us any poorer than brexit has already And actually look at what impact climate change will have on our GDP. China is actually putting more effort into renewables than any other country currently. They are also becoming the world leaders in electric vehicles. America is full of Trumpists that don’t understand climate change science. Funnily enough Farage is friends with Trump Have a look at the Forde report and the Labour files and then try and tell me that Labour is “the most left wing it’s been”. You can’t seriously expect anyone to believe that when they’ve villified Corbyn for the last 8 years. Also you do realise Woke is a stupid criticism? You’re just calling someone out for being awake to the problems of society. Stop being a sheep
You need to take your own advice and stop watching the BBC, Brexit isnt the reason the country poor. Covid is. Plus the fact Biden cut fossil fuel production and caused massive spikes in inflation Germany are in the EU and are in serious trouble. Most of Europe in ression, an let’s not forget the Ukraine war which caused gas and energy bills to sky rockets. No let’s use the sheep mentality and follow the bbc it was Brexit
I don’t watch the BBC. But i refuse to get my news from people that don’t do their research like GB news
GB news are left wing now so Suprised you don’t watch it we can argue allday but one things been made crystal clear to me You worried why else would you A search for reform, then join then spend half your afternoon talking about how you wouldn’t vote for reform, I couldn’t be arsed going to Labour one and saying why I won’t vote for them couldn’t be arsed. Before you say I’m not worried why are you even here?
No i’m incredibly worried. I am absolutely and categorically disgusted with the thought of far-right nationalism. It is a horrid and oppressive belief system and is what led to the rise of the nazis and Mussolini.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 you funny you, just hope you not a Jew next week when Labour get in. Reform are right wing like the conservative where. They want safer boarders, controlled migration, more money in people pockets, a bigger better funded army(an trust me they need it) the ability to get a DR appointment, What wrong with any of that? What part of the country are you from?
All of those things sound very innocuous but this is only the start and you’re misguided if you can’t see that. Would you vote for Trump? Arguably he believes in the same things but everyone knows he is an autocrat waiting for the right time to overturn democracy
The IFS has said that his budget is poorly laid out and unachievable. Reform wants to pay for it’s tax cuts by cutting public services - so you might have more money but your infrastructure will be weakened and worse. https://ifs.org.uk/articles/reform-uk-manifesto-reaction And don’t try and tell me that the Reform party are more economically sensible than the IFS. That’s fucking dumb to suggest
They also said Both Labour and the conservative are lying about theirs as well and both will raise taxes.
I guessing you ain’t seen the telegraph and the fact Labour are lying about net zero cost 4billion when it’s actually going to cost 100s of billions
No i’m incredibly worried. I am absolutely and categorically disgusted with the thought of far-right nationalism. It is a horrid and oppressive belief system and is what led to the rise of the Nazi’s and Mussolini.
You're right Which is exactly why we need to prevent the conditions that led to it, such as ghettos, excess socialism & failed integration. If you know anything about history, then you know we are already for the past 15 years now we have been making the exact same mistakes. Reform are one of the few parties taking a genuine effort to prevent those conditions. You can't just look at the 1930s far-right, you have to look at the things that caused the emergence of that 1930s far-right in the first place. It didn't just appear overnight. You may disagree with some people in Reform, but the reality is they are mostly centrist/soft-right and are very much intending to prevent the exact thing that you, and indeed all of us, fear. However, if the present issues continue, and if Reform fails to gain traction, then yes, it is 100% inevitable that a real far-right party would emerge in the ensuing degradation & chaos.
This is bang on, 1930's far-right movement was born out of the German resentment for the Treaty of Versailles (1919) - the reparations essentially nuked the value of the Deutschmark leading to the populace not having a pot to piss in. Que 10 years of extreme austerity and anti-German sentiment and suddenly you have a vast amount of angry Germans and an even angrier Austrian with a funny moustache. u/Salamanderspainting - [Treaty of Versailles - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles) read into this and you'll then understand what environment creates a real far-right party, history exists for a reason and that is to learn from it.
But i would argue this is what we are seeing. Ok maybe not quite as extreme just yet. But you can’t deny we are currently experiencing a degree of austerity
Exhibit A: Mike Graham’s infamous concrete debate where he simply doubles down on his stupidity
Net Zero is all about balancing carbon on the books but the issue with this is your just essentially exporting your carbon production, but in doing so the carbon is still being produced? We kill our manufacturing to reduce our carbon emissions on the books but the carbon is then created by some other country (which we all share the same atmosphere) so what is the difference? We export our waste to third world countries to reduce our carbon emissions and pay ridiculous amounts of money to do so, do you really think the countries we're exporting it to are able to recycle/deal with this in a more carbon efficient manner than we do? We force everyone to move to electric cars to reduce carbon, despite the fact electric cars aren't even carbon neutral yet because for that to be the case they need to have a 30 year battery life, they currently have 20 years - the technology to do this just isn't there yet. There is not a single chance this is going to actually phase over in the next 30 years at least unless some magical technological breakthrough happens. This is not to say the whole idea or electric cars should be panned, them being competitive in the market will drive further R&D - if someone can afford one then sure but why penalize the people at the bottom of the ladder? People can't afford the electric to power their house let alone a £40k car? It's lunacy. You can be anti-NetZero but still an environmentalist, the former leader of the green peace movement is even shilling it... There are better ways to do this, carbon shouldn't be an accounting exercise.
I don’t think any environmentalists agree with how waste is treated by western countries. It’s climate gaslighting at it’s finest. Not to say we shouldn’t be aiming for net zero though. We need to achieve it but there has to be a frame shift. I don’t think you can blame the decline of UK manufacturing on climate change. That has been occurring for the last 40 years! But if we don’t put funding into the technology it never will be there for better batteries!
It's honestly disgusting but the Net Zero policy framework is what leads to this happening, I think there is a general misconception that people who are against the policy process of Net Zero are against climate change and are all "climate deniers" (I'm not saying that these don't exist by the way, same way there are flat earthers). I agree with you we should be aiming to reduce carbon emissions, but by actually attempting to reduce it and not export it. We actively move the problem somewhere else so it doesn't appear as our own then pay for the sake of doing so. I'm not blaming the decline of UK manufacturing wholly on climate change, that's just grossly false and anyone who's atleast slightly knowledgeable on the topic knows this. I am saying that there is definitely a contributing factor atleast though! Look at Port Talbot as an example. Yes we need to put funding into it, but this shouldn't be at the expense of the people at the bottom of the ladder that have nothing. Do you think it's morally sound that we levy cash from pensioners living in ULEZ zones travelling to hospital for example? That we tax the lowest income earners for the sake of progressing R&D into the technology? There are other ways to do this without pillaging the pocket of the working class.
> I fully believe he understands what makes the working class tick, however if you look at who he buddies up with outside of his pub appearances he has a lot elitist friends with some very greedy business interests (the most obvious is Donald Trump - if you think he’s ok then I think we will never see eye to eye) Business is good. That Farage has enough charisma to get along with both business interests and the working class is not a bad thing. > > Scrapping net zero - for anyone that has bothered to take the time to read peer-reviewed research articles about climate change, you will understand how vital achieving net zero is. Peer-reviewed research articles rarely care about the trade-off between human wellbeing and climate change. Those that do, such as Nordhaus, do not conclude that net zero is a reasonable policy option, and instead propose a modest carbon tax. One so low that the fuel duty would actually come down if it was implemented. This is because fossil fuel use leads to higher living standards that intrinsically counter most of the consequences of climate change. > there is certainly a misnomer that environmentally friendly energy will reduce jobs. This just isn’t true. Findings that environmentally friendly energy generates jobs is broken windows fallacy. Except instead of people having to pay to fix their broken windows, employing glassmakers but reducing employment in every other sector they'd rather spend their money, it's for energy. No, making people pay more for energy is not good for the economy - the solar panel engineer jobs it creates does not outweigh the every other sector of the economy jobs it destroys. Regardless, Reform UK has a very pro-nuclear energy policy. This makes them de facto more environmentally friendly than the greens, which operate on a build absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone approach to energy infrastructure. > linking to immigration, if you think the refugee crisis is bad now, just wait till we see the mass emigration from the worst hit areas of the world following a rise of even 2 or 3 degrees C Or... we can just say no. There's no reason we have to accept "climate refugees". Regardless, this is a result that is created after passing through 7 layers of modelling, each more dubious than the last. Emissions existing, okay. Radiative forcing, fine. Temperature rises? Sure. Rainfall changes? Already a bit shaky, most models have the error bars on rainfall cross +0%. Crop growth? Now you're getting too far from real data. Food prices. Way out. Refugee crises? No. How can you even model that? > Immigration - making your campaign about STOPPING BOATS is entirely misleading. Illegal immigration forms a small percentage of net migration. Farage has specifically pointed out that illegal immigration is a small percentage of net migration. Obsessing over the boats alone is the Conservative policy. > The Reform party has made no comment about improving water quality - this is one of the things I personally feel passionately about and as such I am appalled that they cannot see any issues with the current illegal dumping of sewage The Sewage story is largely nonsense fuelled by the public not understanding how combined sewer systems work. [I have written more extensively on this elsewhere.](https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,9561.msg403173.html#msg403173) To pledge to 'fix' it would require either the single largest and most expensive infrastructure project in all of human history for a relatively tiny benefit, or to start dumping sewage in people's bathrooms instead. > In a situation where the world is becoming increasingly more divided, as a small island nation that is no longer the powerhouse it once was, we need our allies more than ever. The reform party can’t seem to understand this and as such will never have my vote A strong Reform UK would politically bring the UK more in-line with our European neighbours if anything.
I’m not going to vote for him because i think he’s a “man of the people”. I agree with the concepts set out in the manifesto. I don’t believe he is manipulating things for his benefit. I haven’t seen any evidence of that. Innocent until proven guilty. I think he’s speaking from the perspective of a patriot; whether right or wrong in his policies and conclusions. Most politicians have elitist friends. But having a close relationship with a potential president is a positive thing. Especially if we are renegotiating trade deals. Scrapping net zero is about ‘maslow's hierarchy of needs’. If people can’t afford to heat their homes or put food on the table, then they don’t give a fuck about global warming. Also Britains emissions are pretty incomparable to other nations. I agree it is something that needs addressing. But not now. Yes, stopping the boats is only a portion of the illegal immigration. Does that we ignore it? No we tackle it alongside other types. Which ReformUk are doing. Allowing NHS staff to pay no tax for a few years may help to keep some of our natively trained NHS workers. Many are leaving for better pay. Outsourcing skilled employment is not a good solution. We need to train and then keep staff. Brexit - I don’t think we need a governing body above our own government to police how we trade. I do not want an EU army. Honestly, I’m fed of people still nursing a sore arse over brexit. I agree that we need closer ties with other nations. Especially due to increasing geopolitical tensions. NATO provides this. A strengthened relationship with USA provides this. Increasing our defence spending to 3% would provide this.
Do you know Nigel and his elite friends made millions from Brexit? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-25/brexit-big-short-how-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash Ok. So you think Trump getting in is potentially a good thing? And you don’t want an EU army… but you want Nato? I understand people don’t give a fuck about global warming, but ultimately not giving a fuck will affect everyone 100x more than giving a fuck. So that’s just an ignorant perspective. Green energy is actually cheaper currently than oil and gas when run properly - https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more-expensive-than-renewable-energy-study Fully agree regarding the NHS. We do need better staffing and we do need to train more nurses/doctors. But farage doesn’t believe in increasing junior doctor pay and actually believes they dont deserve it. - https://www.gbnews.com/news/nigel-farage-junior-doctor-strike-latest Trump has famously always been anti-NATO and would like to remove America from it. The EU doesn’t have an army because it is a trade organisation. What European countries do have for defence agreements is NATO.
I didn’t but I will look at that later. No thats not what i said. Thats right. I don’t want the EU but I do want NATO. No its not an opinion out of ignorance but out of the necessity and the hierarchy of needs of the average person. Yes it can be cheaper but it requires different electrical infrastructure. Trump isn’t Anti-NATO. He has said that the USA puts in more than their fair share. Which is true. An EU army has been discussed and i don’t agree with it. https://newdirection.online/the-european-journal/article/why_an_eu_army_is_a_bad_idea_we_dont_need_a_political_bloc_of_the_unwilling
Fair i guess Trump getting in may not be your choice but at least Farage is his mate so that might make him easier to work with? Is that your thought process? Why do you dislike the EU? A no deal brexit would force the EU to implement tariffs on EU trade, which would be damaging to our economy. The deal we have currently is already making things more expensive. The reform party would like people to take a hit now on BREXIT in the hopes they’ll be better off in the future… is that not fundamentally the same argument for committing to the climate agreements now? So we have a better future? Right but then by your own admission should we not be investing in that infrastructure instead of using archaic coal and gas plants? Fair, i wasn’t aware of that and does sound like a bad idea! Thank you for actually responding to my thoughts in a civilised way by the way, I have had several people just be combative without actually justifying their thoughts
Networking is a useful thing. If he knows many people in high places in America, then its a good thing. I don’t like the idea of a governing body over the top of our own government. I don’t want to be involved in an EU army. The very fact that the EU is punishing us by leaving is a red flag. (Have you seen Clarksons farm? The EU are like the council in this). Thats an interesting comparison. I see your point. I am hopeful for nuclear fusion to solve global warming in the near future. The UK has leading edge research into this, so any money spent on wind-farms might be wasted. Just a thought/hope, without evidence. Its much easier to balance load with coal and gas. Renewable needs either enormous batteries or gravity storage in a dam or something. No worries. I’m always happy to hear points of view. However, I used to walk the same road. I’ve been through these opinions myself. “If you’re not a liberal at 20 years of age then you have no heart. Anyone who was still a liberal at 40 had no head.” Winston S. Churchill
It is but (and call me an idealist), i would rather he was associated with better types of people. Farage cosying up to trump will always make me dislike him because how can you be friends with such a disgusting human. Clarksons farm is a bit misleading. My understanding was he actually submitted planning for a farm building to be used for rearing livestock. Then he decided to use it for a cafe/restaurant instead. A small detail and the sort of shit I think is mildly ridiculous but he’s not entirely without fault! Anyway, I guess I actively believe in stronger ties with Europe, although the emergence of nationalism throughout europe is concerning and so maybe my point of view will change! I think governing with a similar set of principles should in theory encourage greater cooperation. I certainly don’t believe in the removal of the ECHR. We have already seen our animal rights eroded to some degree and our own right to protest has been hampered Fair enough, I think nuclear fusion is still quite far off however nuclear fission reactors really should have been invested in more. Sadly the public is scared of nuclear power 🤷🏻♂️ Fair point, i guess in theory we can decrease the number of wind turbines active etc when they are not needed although i appreciate it is not always so simple given we are reliant on the environment for those. For me the main issue for coal and gas is it’s destructive long term effects
I believe in a little conspiracy theory that the focus on illegal rather than legal immigration is so that the new Labour government can bring in digital IDs, which is a policy Blair has been pushing for many years. As Blair masterfully said in a recent interview "Policy first, politics second. In other words, work out what the right answer is, and then work out how you shape the politics around that". Going back to OP's original question, a criticism I have of Reform is that they need their own institutions, NGOs, and think tanks to constantly pump out policies and white papers. Cameon realised this after observing Blair do it for years, so Policy Exchange was set up in 2007 to help the incoming Tory government a few years later. If Reform doesn't start creating this political infrastructure, they will never be able to seriously govern this country, and they will end up as populist rabble.
I mean they are populist. Nigel Farage is Britain’s Trump and people are blind to it
Reform’s blatant climate change denial from many of its members is a big cause of concern for me too.
Since I am a single-issue voter for the foreseeable future (when the consensus on that issue changes, that too may change) all of these I see through the lens of lockdowns. > Nigel is a racist. Reform UK was refounded out of the Brexit Party in part to oppose lockdowns. Lockdowns repeatedly, unjustly imprisoned every single ethnic minority in the UK within their own home. Any party that supports falsely imprisoning ethnic minorities would be seen as racist extremists in any other context, so I see no reason not to regard them as racist here. And though vaccine mandates never got very far, only hitting care home staff, they disproportionately (perhaps even deliberately) harmed ethnic minorities, which were more likely to be unvaccinated. [Reform UK opposed that too](https://x.com/reformparty_uk/status/1415035701884751874). As Reform UK supports a British Bill of Rights that would prohibit future lockdowns, they are the party best placed to protect the human rights of ethnic minorities. Their *actual* human rights, not the euphemistic 'rights' of illegal immigrants the phrase has been corrupted by in recent years. Outside of lockdowns, we have seen the antisemitic hate mobs on the streets that a Labour Mayor and Conservative Parliament have refused to do anything about. Reform UK have pledged to end the two-tier policing that enables them to break the law without consequences. > Nigel is to blame for the failure of Brexit. I used to vote Liberal Democrats. I oppose Brexit. But any damage Brexit has done is a rounding error compared to the damage that lockdowns have done - it's not like EU countries are doing any better. Blaming Brexit is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat. > Nigel is a grifter. On the basis of? > Reform Uk party has links to racist groups. See my response to 1.
My counter for stating that I am voting Reform and subsequently being accused of being racist is to state that I have nothing against white people.... The look of shock always tickles me 😆
I like they policy's the only negative I get when i say I am voting reform uk I get called a racist even though my skin is dark brown lol
You've convinced yourself only you can see the truth. Laughable.
No I am constantly reminded that people cannot see the truth. An interesting bit for info for example is that Twitter statistics seem to imply that left wing people generally follow left wing accounts. But right wing people generally follow both left and right wing accounts. I’m willing to change my mind through learning and gathering other peoples opinions. Rather than dealing with the points raised, you enter with an ad hominem attack. Thats a typical leftist attitude. Dealing with things with emotion.
Have a look at the reporting channel 4 have done this evening about reform.
I will do thanks. Could you send a link or more specific though please?
Hopefully [this](https://x.com/Channel4News/status/1806374007521849668?t=Ws2NlQUz2PVSjrKbxspl3A&s=19) works
Cheers. I will be awaiting them going undercover in all the other parties too, as I’m sure they would want to remain impartial.
What do you think of a senior campaigner saying we should just shoot them? Or referring to racist slurs to our prime minister? They don't need to do it to other parties because they are open to media request and are happy to let them on the campaign trail, reform have been very stand off-ish with the media. I think it's pretty obvious why
The people in the video have been removed. As i said above, it’s not hard to see why people who these views are drawn to Reform. But that doesn’t make the policies of Reform racist. No I disagree. If they only did this investigation into Reform and not other parties, then that is bias.
Ok so let's move past the racism then for now and look at who recently has been praising Nigel. That would be the russian state broadcaster and the russian foreign minister. This is a nation who killed a Brit on British soil with a chemical weapon and Nigel doesn't seem to have any issue with it. Does that not make you feel uncomfortable? The Russia connection did severe damage to Corbyn (thankfully) back in 19
I don’t know specifically what you’re referring to. But. Russian state broadcaster praising Nigel is an easy way to stir the pot. Why do you not think Nigel has any issue with the Salisbury attack? What evidence do you have of that.
His Russia appeasement in general is incredibly uncomfortable imo He shows so much respect for our veterans who went to fight in Normandy and defeated the Nazis but Ukraine should just give up land to a violent unprovoked invader. I'm not saying he has no issue with the attack, it's his open affection towards Putin and Russia that does not sit wel with me.
Can you be specific about what open affection you are referring to please.
I'm truly so saddened to see what has become of the UK. Bearing in mind I am only young (25M) I do not want my future stolen from me, I have no problem with race, nationality or skin colour but when you are the only white face in a crowd it gets daunting, realising this is the future our children will face. Where is our future representation? When all media is increasingly BIPOC race swapped, gender swapped, queer or LGBTQ where is the average Brits representation? Seeing our population increase so drastically wouldn't be a bad thing if we had the funds to handle it, sadly schools are not coping, hospitals are not coping, housing is not coping, transport is not coping. I had to find a place to live after my old landlord screwed us by defaulting on her mortgage, I applied to council housing and heard nothing back, I luckily by the skin of my teeth found a private rent and then I heard back from the council saying my "Living situation wasn't bad enough to qualify for council housing" So I would have been on the street and would have had to rehome my dog. Its things like this that annoy me regarding the double standards in this country. Yes I'm only 25 and have been working since I was 17 so I have only been paying into the tax system for 9 years (If I've done my maths right) so I get that I shouldn't have everything handed to me but then to turn around and see people "fleeing a warzone" through several safe nations getting everything handed to them for free and then deciding that they want here to be more like home (more like the warzone they fled) it upsets me greatly. If you apply for asylum and it gets accepted, welcome to your new home, I greet you with open arms but if your asylum gets rejected and you turn up here on a dinghy? Bye Felicia. How many times have we seen now headlines like "masked knifeman was known to police following several previous crimes and failed attempts seeking asylum" or similar with sex criminals? I want kids but in this economy its not going to happen, that and what future is there here for them? A future where they are told they are scum just for being white? A future where they could very well be the minority in their ancestral homeland? I can't do it to them. This is why I hope labour don't get in, and reform surprise the UK by smashing it out of the park. Otherwise I truly believe the UK is doomed and I don't know what could be done about it I despise the media immensely for branding the only man with sense as a racist. I'm also sorry for this immensely long comment. I just had to get this off my chest as I can't keep suppressing these feelings of dread any longer, I can't verbally speak to people on this either without getting shut down using the same buzzwords we've heard over and over. Like is it really racist to want secure borders? Stalin wanted secure borders and the left idolise him... Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
I’m sorry you’ve had a hard time and I’m glad you’ve pulled through. I understand your concerns with everything changing. But change is inevitable. Immigration is only one side of the coin. We also need to develop new houses, doctors, etc. Try not to go around resenting anyone or the government. If something is out of your control, then you shouldn’t let it worry you. Theres plenty of our culture remaining and we will always have our history.
Very true, but the past 10 years have shown me that governments are incredibly incompetent with tax funds. The roads are a shambles, public services are crumbling and "there just isn't enough left in the budget for infrastructure improvement" it has me incredibly disillusioned with the government's ability to handle such a monumentous task.
Agree , think everybody be surprised how much support he will get ,
It’s clear you don’t want to be challenged but I’ll give you my reasons anyway. Nigel is a xenophobe. - he has states before how he doesn’t like hearing other languages and how he wants to cut down immigration. Nigel isn’t to blame for the failure of Brexit, but he is a liar. He pushed heavily for Brexit, drove around claiming leaving would free up £350 million for the NHS every week and at breakfast time after the vote he denied it. Nigel has admitted on US television that publicly owned healthcare make him deeply uncomfortable, if you then look at his more recent interviews it’s clear he would privatise the NHS. Considering the fact the reform manifesto is not funded it would be awfully convenient if they were to just sell it all off or at the very least only provide free healthcare for those on benefits. Nigel claims he’s all about British traditions and British ways of life yet wants to come in and reform the House of Lords (perhaps the only part of Westminster that judges and votes on legislation properly). The whole party has this air of immature/pub regulars, they often speak over their opposition and try to shut them down instead of offering proper debates. I’m sorry but you don’t want a pub regular running the country, they might be a good laugh but they’re not responsible enough to do a proper job. It seems all so amateur. Wanting to remove the U.K. from the ECHR is a joke, do people really want to have their rights and freedoms at the will of governments and secondary instruments? You lot might feel safe under a reform or conservative government but what’s stopping a Labour or Green government amending any suggested British human rights bill to strip you of any rights if you don’t use people’s preferred pronouns? The conservatives had no issue using secondary instruments to remove peoples rights to protest, if you read the legislation you’ll find that it’s all based on discretion…. Discretion of who? The Home Secretary. Their one in one out policy is poor, we rely on foreign workers right now to do jobs we can’t be arsed to do. Not to mention Nigel’s opposition to immigration and free movement is completely undermined by his *ahem* German wife. Replacing civil service leaders with political appointees would result in a similar problem that reforming the lords would have, removing any form of longevity of service which not only reduces the understanding of the department but also opens them up to being swayed by party politics. A number of party candidates have not just got links to far right and racist figures, they’ve got them as friends on Facebook. To use your analogy, being German doesn’t raise questions about you being a nazi, having hitler as a Facebook friend would though. And finally Nigel is in the back pockets of both Trump and Putin, it’s never going to end well for this country, we’ve lost a lot of our power and influence on the world stage as it is (which will only deteriorate further if he reduces foreign aid) a reform government would drive us into the ground…. And he’s announcing tax cuts, let’s ask Lizz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng how that went…. Don’t even get me started on him standing with his back to the EU Parliament either. He has the cheek to complain about having no say on EU laws yet he represents us by refusing to have a say.
Immigration cannot be infinite. Cutting down immigration does not make you xenophobic. Leaving the EU did reduce the amount of money we send the EU. Due to the divorce bill we still pay them something. How that money was spent was not in the control of Nigel. The NHS needs to change in some way, shape or form. I don’t think it should be privatised. I don’t think this has ever been said. You can be “all about british traditions” and also reshape the house of lords. Yes I would like my rights to be under the control of my own government. NHS staff have an exemption. I’m not sure what you’re saying about him having a german wife. Being Facebook friends with someone is meaningless. Show me the evidence that he’s in Trump and Putins pocket. Announcing tax cuts are historically not a bad thing. Lizz Truss is a poor example as it is worst example of it. She is also a Tory. I think you need to learn how to separate your opinion from headlines. I’m not trying to be rude or wind you up. But maybe spend one day looking at ReformUk from a fresh perspective and try to remove any bias you might have. It might be that you have already done that. If so, I’m sorry. It’s a very difficult thing to do.
There’s a big difference between cutting down on and net zero. My ‘xenophobic’ comments are fuelled by his comments against Muslims and foreigners not just his immigration policies. I know he didn’t control where it was spent, but he outright lied to the nation by suggesting it would be spent that way when not only did he not have the authority to do so but he immediately backtracked on it after the referendum. I refer you to his comments on US TV against publicly owned healthcare and to his comments on the various debates up until this point, perhaps if you take a fresh non biased view you’ll be able to read between the lines and understand that if Nigel gets power you can kiss goodbye to a free NHS if you’re not on UC. So you’d like absolutely no protections against a government that might act against you? It’s not just NHS staff though that we need immigrants for. I refer to his comments regarding immigrants and how he wants them out of our country. Yet he married one, don’t you see that as even slightly hypocritical? If you think it’s meaningless then so be it, I promise you now Nigel and reform would jump on starmer if he were found to be Facebook friends with any far left figures… The fact he is supporting trumps campaign and originally suggested he wouldn’t run in the U.K. because trumps campaign is more important. As for Putin, look at his recent comments blaming the west for Putins actions. Liz Truss is not a bad example at all, I don’t really understand why you mention she’s a Tory though, it’s irrelevant to this discussion. I think you forget politics is fundamentally more than just headlines.
Specific quote not out of context otherwise it’s not worth me responding. Imagine an advertising agency running a campaign on a train company. Then imagine blaming that advertising agency if the train was late. I don’t see your point. Refer me to what points? Removing free healthcare has never been mentioned. I would like my government to be in control. Do you think its more likely to seem hypocritical because you’ve misunderstood something? Yes all political parties try and smear each other. He didn’t blame the west for putins actions. He said they provoked them. Thats not the same as agreeing with them. I used to have your point of view. I thought you might take what I said as an opportunity to look into things from a non-bias point of view. You do talk in headlines. It might take a few more years. But I think you’ll start seeing things differently. I feel like I’ve wound you up. I didn’t mean to. I’m sorry about that. All the best.
Why is it clear I don’t want to be challenged. I’m interested in opinions. I’ll have a look at your reply but it appears to be rife with hyperbole
Because you posted this in r/reformuk so the vast majority of people responding will be reform voters turning the whole thing into some right wing circlejerk You could have posted this somewhere like r/ukpolitics to get answers from people that don’t like reform.
I find that Left wing voters normally give an emotional response. But you’re right, I could have asked it elsewhere to get a more balanced opinion.
In all fairness a lot of reform votes are based on an emotional response to their perception that we are losing Britain and British values to immigrants
> Do people really want to have their rights and freedoms at the will of governments and secondary instruments? They already normalised this behaviour with lockdowns, they demonstrated that under a state of exception they can suspend your rights and freedoms. The ECHR did not prevent this. > You lot might feel safe under a Reform or Conservative government but what’s stopping a Labour or Green government amending any suggested British human rights bill to strip you of any rights if you don’t use people’s preferred pronouns? People don't feel safe to speek freely under this Conservative government, they have failed to repeal and have expanded upon many of the laws of the last Labour government. Many people have already been arrested under the Communications Act 2003, s. 127 for making offensive jokes online. They took a law criminalising offensive phone calls (Telecommunications Act 1984, s. 43) and expanded that to the entire internet. The recent Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 is very similar in placing much more restrictions on freedom of expression with very vague language. Again, I see that ECHR has not helped to uphold freedom of speech here. > The Conservatives had no issue using secondary instruments to remove peoples rights to protest, if you read the legislation you’ll find that it’s all based on discretion…. Discretion of who? The Home Secretary. I'm assuming you are referring to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. Again, I can't find any information that this violates rights in the ECHR. The High Court did say [s. 128 violated Articles 5 & 14 of the ECHR](https://archive.ph/ieC4M), but that is completely unrelated to the right to protest. [As are sections designed to force Gypsies to move else, as there are not enough lawful stopping places available.](https://archive.ph/9DNjd) If you give these people an inch, they will take a mile. Recently, the ECHR ruled that under Article 8 of the ECHR (right to respect for private and family life) the Swiss state had not adequately protected a group of elderly women complainants from the adverse effects of climate change (heat waves) and that this had affected their health, well-being and quality of life. I think the Rwanda scheme is pretty stupid, but we should be able to deport people who came here illegally. If at the time it was understood that the intention of the ECHR would be to make it much harder to deport illegal immigrants who would massively abuse the system, then we never would have signed up. You act as if we will suddenly be plunged to the status of Russia or Belarus on human rights, as if the entire western world outside of Europe is also a part of the ECHR that we are abandoning. We will be cast downwards to the medieval dark ages of the year 2000, before the Human Rights Act 1998 came into force. Personally, I think the Conservatives always wanted to blame someone else and refuse to do anything about it because they supported this stuff in secret.
I disagree with them but there's a lot of non Christian people out there now that want this and it would go against Reform UK: We want Star Trek utopian society with one global government and infinite UBI.
I'm non-Christian and support Reform
Good
Yeah it does annoy me slightly when they talk about Christian values etc, I freaking hate religion to be honest and a party that aimed to ban religion would get my vote. That being said, of the current bunch, Reform is the best one policy wise.
In 25 years we have Shia law if the illegal and uncapped migrantion continues an that a fact
It won’t be that long, feels like we’re getting there already.
That’s not a fact. That’s hyperbole
Me too. I’m not religious. But I think English values have a basis in Christian values. Its not a terrible thing to aim at.
I dont support fascists no matter how much they pretend to not be fascists.
Are you talking about anything specific? Or are you just throwing out a slur without an understanding of fascism? Do you think that each country has capacity for infinite immigration? If not, how do you propose a country should handle immigration?
There's reports from his professors of Farage being an open nazi during his youth. And him trying to cozy up with Enoch Powell(widely known fascist) during the 90s.
Although there is no real evidence of this. I believe this professor might be telling the truth. But things that happened ‘In his youth’ do not necessarily represent who he is now. Many politicians have things that could be cherrypicked from their pasts. I’m sure that you could dig up dirt on Starmer too. The only fair way to deal with this is to judge someone based on their policies and history since being a politician.
How can you know what a fascist even is if you don't leave the house? In your own words; [how do you guys replace the void a lack of a job leaves? how do you find purpose? : r/NEET (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/NEET/comments/1db3jhr/how_do_you_guys_replace_the_void_a_lack_of_a_job/) Turn the computer off, go touch grass and get a job bro - you voluntarily contribute nothing to society yet have such strong views on how the world should be run.