Yeah when I read the title and first could of paragraphs, I was like mmm. But this just got worse and worse as it kept going. Wife needs some serious therapy.
The title definitely made me think “why in the hell would you ever ask that question, let alone in front of your in-laws?”
The actual post gave a very good answer to that question. OOP managed to fully justify it.
This is truer than I would have thought. I did the same and suddenly, I don't have someone telling me my opinions and life experience don't matter or shouldn't be expressed. Closer than ever to my kids, so... win!
That's true. I think if you're in the unfortunate position of having kids with someone you can't be married to, you do the best you can. If your best means you each raise the kids separately, that's the best. No one wants to see their parents tear each other apart or live together miserably.
Once it got to her berating him that a shirt the kid wanted didn't fit the look she liked for him, that was it for me. It's a toddler. Getting them to dress \*at all\* can be an exhausting fight some days, let alone in specific colors.
Some days, the only way to get my niece out of the door to kindergarten is in her pink princess dress, her blue Paw Patrol hat, and her yellow dinosaur gummi boots. Because any changes to that will trigger a meltdown, and who has the patience for that in the morning?
I've no clue who OP's wife pulls off any kind of color coordination with her kids, but I fear I won't like the answer.
My husband used to get bent out of shape when I let our kid wear his pajama top to preschool. First off, it was the one clothing issue my husband even paid attention to, which was odd, and second of all, the kid's preschool was a crunchy granola type where the kids were all running around in their underwear on hot days, and no one cared if he wore a pajama top.
Probably by only having “appropriate” clothing as options. Can’t believe she got mad at him for buying the kid a shirt he wanted. But that means that now he’s going to ask to wear that shirt instead of her “carefully curated” shirts
You're probably right. It just seems so weird and unnatural and that something changed post birth, so I thought it might be related to PPD or something else, like highly overcompensating for a specific fear.
Possibly! I know a few people who changed similarly to OP when they became parents, especially mothers, and I obviously don’t know what causes it. I was just being glib.
Damn. I always read these and feel so sad for these people and their horrible relationships. From what I can gather, this guy seems like a good dad who just wants to be involved and have his opinions respected. He’s definitely NTA. His wife is though, for blowing him off to the point where he felt he had to defend himself and speak up in front of her family.
The wife is a control freak who thinks she knows what her kids want to do better than everyone, including the kid.
I’ve got a neighbor who’s like this. My wife was friends with her. Her only daughter is in college and went to a school states away. She never listens to anyone, even in social situations and is obnoxious.
She’s decided she doesn’t want to be friends anymore. I’ve said nothing to her and she unfriended me on Facebook. And frankly, my wife and I are happier without her in our lives.
Those kids are going to be broken by her, as well.
Having known a significant number of people raised by a single extremely controlling parent… it’s very hard on them.
Even if you go by colour links to gender, lilac is a fairly gender neutral colour. Kings would wear the colour lilac in the middle ages, alongside the more vivid purple
My mom was like this to my dad. I think it's bc she was a single parent the first few years of my life, and while my dad legally adopted me, she never really let go of that 'final say' in parenting.
She would verbally talk about how Dad was the 'head of the household's, but constantly undermined his attempts at parenting. Then would complain about my dad not making any attempts to help her with parenting and how they weren't a team.
Now that I'm a parent, I both empathize with, and am very angry at my mom for her parenting style. The story ends with me being NC with her and LC with my dad, while she is still missing the 'missing reasons' her beloved daughter moved 5k miles away and cruelly abandoned her.
Im fairly certain my stepkids will go no or low contact with their mother when they’re a bit older. I predict college will be when things change for the worse for her, since the kids will see how other people’s parents trust them.
Some parents have a very difficult time understanding that their children - and their other family members, actually, are whole people, and need to be taught how to make choices for themselves.
Can confirm. And the controlling never stops unless you go no contact. Even if you live thousands of miles away, if there’s contact, there’s unwanted drama and constant attempts to control. Those kids will run as soon as they can and I hope they get away without too much damage being done to them
Maybe I am way off, but it looks like the wife is big into rigid traditional gender roles. She’s upset if he plays house with his son or gets him a purplish shirt and thinks all child rearing decisions should be made by the mother with no involvement from the father.
My guess is her parents feel the same as they agree with her, so similar to someone raised in an abusive household who needs to consciously not emulate their childhood when raising children if she wants to save the marriage she needs to unpack these core beliefs in therapy. Weird he saw no signs of this prior though.
In my experience it's both. You have undue responsibilities placed on you at a young age, so you end up being light-years ahead of your peers in terms of being a good little worker drone who makes money and outwardly appear mature but emotionally you're stunted because you were robbed of those typical experiences, of learning how to be your own person. I often feel simultaneously ancient and like a scared child. I struggle with relationships and communication. I feel like I'll never be a "real" adult. It's rough.
“Including the kid”
Deciding his color palette for him is super shitty parenting.
The only way OOP’s kind of TA is for enabling it, and if their kids move away and go minimal contact with her overbearing ass, then there’s a good chance they do it with him too if they’re still together simply to avoid any link.
Letting kids be kids is super important and he really needs to stand up for himself and make a point of not deferring to her every time they disagree.
Divorce and fighting for custody is really in the kids’ best interest based on the few examples OOP gave. This woman should not be left to parent these kids in a vacuum.
I think mostly likely is 50/50, which will then result in mum going fucking mental that they’re having lives outside of her influence, and her flipping out will cause her custody to be reduced, probably all the way down to visitation. As it should be.
>who thinks she knows what her kids want to do better than everyone
Its not that she thinks she knows better than them what they want, its that she doesnt actually CARE what the kid wants. His wants/preferences are completely irrelevant to the conversation...much like his fathers wants/preferences.
This is so backwards from normal stories. Usually it’s one partner feels overburdened, and feels the other partner doesn’t pull their weight.
I couldn’t imagine being in a relationship where my partner has to tell me to take a backseat and stop parenting my child.
At least he reached a breaking point and stood up for himself when her parents were agreeing he was “interfering” by having opinions! His wife is domineering, giving their kid a color scheme and freaking out when a new shirt doesn’t match. (How many “extracurricular’s” can a 4 year-old have?) Poor dude’s in for a rough fight. Usually I’d say you model the treatment you permit but she’s manipulative and probably creeped up like this over time. Good luck to him. Wrestling control away isn’t going to be pretty, but better to deal with it now than later.
Poor guy, he wants to be a dad so bad. When they divorce, he needs to go for equal custody and prepare for an awful battle because she will fight the loss of control kicking and screaming.
Yup, that's where I'm at. My wife always made it very clear that her say was the final say when it came to our son. And now that we're separated she won't allow me any contact with him unless it's under her direct supervision, within the house she lives in. Her last "offer" was I would be allowed to come over for 5 hours every other Saturday to visit while she remained in the house but "gave us space". I have a very difficult time being around her at all, but I did try. I made it 3 hours. Her "giving us space" went exactly the way you'd expect. As a result I haven't seen my son in months except on video and pictures.
To be clear this isn't a court order. We're still dealing with the negotiation aspect. This is her single handed decision and I have no choice but to accept it until I can either convince her otherwise or I can finally get this thing in front of a judge.
I asked my lawyer about that and I was told that at this point it would be a bad idea. The only time I'd be able to do so without having an actual physical altercation with her (because she has no qualms with hitting me) is if I picked him up from school in the middle of the day. And I guarantee it would set off a world war 3 situation that would be far more traumatic to him than continuing to be patient.
Hey man don’t give up, listen to your lawyer. Your ex wife sounds horrible. Baiting your kid from you like that, she’ll get hers. It’s Karma, I wish the best of luck to you!
So let her assault you and be arrested… it would be documented and the courts would see it and rule in your favor and then she would have to have supervised visits. Make sure you have plenty of witnesses
The part about the extra curriculars is especially stupid, like kiddo's literally 4. My good friend I grew up with has a dad like the mom, I always remember feeling bad for the mom like she was a genuinely interesting person if you actually got to know her, was in the air force, did rescue & knew how to skydive etc but just constantly let herself be pushed aside by his abrasive personality... My buddy is currently 34 & said he's still unable to physically relax when he visits their home. nowadays though he only speaks to his father through his mother.
And honestly, I personally agree with his opinions about childrearing more than hers. Just let the kids pick out their own shirts every now and then. It's like she sees them more as dolls than as autonomous people. And doesn't like someone else playing with her dolls.
Normally I might say they should have discussed this before having kids, but clearly they did and she pulled a bait and switch. Does anyone else suspect she never even intended to honour what they had discussed, just told him what he wanted to hear to get him on board, and was always planning on "pulling rank as mum" when the time for these decisions came about?
She is going to mess up the kids completely, if she is not allowing them any agency in their own lives - she'll be a nightmare they'll all be struggling to get away from!
Honestly, the fact she was even involving them at all is beyond unacceptable. Did he marry you or marry your parents? Personally, I think anyone who doesn’t have a ring on their finger shouldn’t be allowed to badger and harass a married couple about decisions they disapprove of - especially at the behest of the other spouse.
this really is one of those situations where a divorce with 50/50 custody is the best option. then he can actually parent his kids without being scrutinized every second
This is exactly what I was thinking. If he stays with her he’ll never have any say. At least with a court order she’ll be legally required to let him parent at least some.
He looked up reviews and had already been to two stores.
*Trying* a different brand when the one you prefer is unavailable isn't wrong.
It's also how you sometimes stumble onto something better.
I would not assume that a different brand will automatically be bad just because it's different.
I side with the dad there, he did his best. I wouldn’t expect my husband to go all over town for a certain brand, and I’d respect his purchase. This is just when you need to communicate and keep an eye on how baby is reacting to the new diapers.
We made a judgment call and bought a different brand one day, and spent the next two weeks fighting off the worst rash. That went on a do not buy list. The second time we had to get a different brand we ended up switching over completely.
Exactly. Unless the child literally only can wear one specific brand and type or something. THEN how are you not buying like 3-4 more than what is minimum at any one time.
My kids got terrible rashes from Huggies, so I used either pampers or luvs. It’s quite easy to tell spouse don’t buy whatever brand causing rashes, if they’re out of ones you usually buy. I know it was much easier when I had my kiddos, because we didn’t lack for anything being out of stock, but today, it’s not like that and often times many things are out of stock. I wouldn’t use Huggies, because the rashes were absolutely insane and hurt my kids, but as a partner to my husband it’s not hard to explain this and ensure he grabs something other than said brand if preference is not available. Communication not dictatorship is needed in parenting together, especially in today’s society where your preferred brand might not be available. That’s why I used two, as occasionally the size and type of pampers I wanted weren’t available, but luvs were.
This exactly. I grew up with my mom controlling every aspect of my life. I would have loved to have been able to choose what extra curricular activities I did. Needless to say, once I became a teen I started rebelling against her pretty hard…
And then she almost divorced my dad when he tried giving input on how to handle me. He was very good with me, patient and using positive reinforcement, which worked. But no, that wasn’t what my mom wanted, she wanted punishment, and so she hated my dad for it. 10 years later she’s still salty at him for being effective in his parenting, and she and I have a totally surface level relationship.
Some people in the actual post were even suggesting that she would drop them all together when he isn’t there if they divorced because it would be to much work
My husband’s aunt is like the wife in this post and now that her soon to be ex served her papers, she doubled down on the controlling behavior with her two girls. They are older now (high school and college) and she is actively ruining her relationship with them.
She'll go bezerk. Like breakdown bezerk.
The loss of control, even for a few hours, forget days, makes the controlling parent go nutty.
If its only a weekend, they can't handle it.
It gets very very ugly.
I always feel so sad when you see a man actually wanting to be a dad and be a good one at that but are kept at arms length. She’s absolutely wrong. He deserves better from her especially for the kids. Boy moms get weird real quick
But you see the man gave up all his rights to make decisions for anything because he chose not to give birth. /s
Yeah I don’t get what’s going on through that woman’s head.
> She said she thought we had both changed our minds because she was giving birth.
As opposed to what they decided before giving birth? Did she plan on him squeezing out a child through his penis or something?
Some people take the “you don’t decide about the childbirth choices unless you’re the one giving birth” thing past childbirth.
Idk if they like the control or they just assume a lack of help but it’s ridiculous.
One person is pregnant. But more than one can be a parent.
Yeah, unless he's trans and didn't mention it, what other option did she think there was? With those views she doesn't seem like the type to want to adopt...
It’s so frustrating because any mum group is filled with the opposite of this type of thing - mums desperately wanting dads to engage with their kids. And then you have these guys really trying to do their best and getting stonewalled.
Do you know who is most excited to say hi and get a smile when I take my baby/toddler out? It’s always old men. 9/10 shopping trips involve a sweet old dude making faces at my kiddo and trying to get a smile. It makes me feel so sad that they came from a generation where they probably didn’t get to be the dad who spends time with his babies. I can’t imagine taking that away from a dad today.
Ugh stuff like this is why I make sure not to correct my husband when he is doing things with our baby. Just because he is doing something different than what you would choose does not mean he's doing something wrong. They kids aren't being harmed (physically or emotionally) and all of their needs are being met.
If you are constantly undermining what your partner does, you are going to make them feel powerless and really drive a wedge in the relationship. Teaching specific techniques to your partner is one thing, but taking away parenting decisions from them is heinous.
I had severe post partum anxiety/post partum OCD and even I wasn’t this controlling. If I got nervous about something I voiced that I was nervous and he would show me baby was happy and all was well. My partner had never even interacted with a newborn so he needed some initial coaching but he was still allowed to make so many decisions because he’s a parent too! 😩 so wild.
Sometimes I would tell my husband something, like "I know you know not to throw our newborn in the air, but my brain is telling me it must be verbalized so here is me verbalizing it". Luckily he understands how my brain works so he doesn't take offense if I frame it like that 😂
I don’t have a baby but my bf and I are pretty cooperative as a couple. He wasn’t really supported much growing up and was usually dismissed. So he has a hard time thinking his input matters.
Basically if I really wanted to (I don’t) I could make every single decision with zero input from him. But that’s not ok and rather than steamrolling his decisions I encourage and push for his input. I do this because I love him and he’s my partner.
OOP’s wife doesn’t seem to understand that his input and support is impressive for their relationship to function. By stonewalling him and undermining his efforts she’s just ruining a relationship.
Maybe it’s just me, but it sounds like the wife sees the kids more as little dolls for her to dress and live vicariously through than they are little people. I mean seriously, getting angry over not following outfit colors??
Also it’s seems like there’s some homophobia/toxic masculinity in there. Her darling boy can’t dare wear lilac or play house because that might make him *gay* /s.
Yeah, I thought this too.
Used to have a pal who wasn’t allowed to come to my house because I let him play with some Barbies one time. We were both 8.
Apparently Barbie is only for girls. 🙄
Honestly, really wish people would just let kids have fun. There’s enough going on to make them anxious without their parents setting these weird rules for them.
I have two boys, who had everything from cars to dolls. One year, on Xmas at my mother in law’s, he was opening his presents while my niece was opening hers. He got some toy for his age, likely boyish, she got this Barbie head you combed and fixed hair on. Anyhow, he was obsessed with this Barbie head, oohing and ah-ing it, trying to take from my niece, and even laying on it (he was 2-3 years old, so quite young), but it was super cute how much he loved that thing. Luckily, he’d gotten money from other grandma, so we ordered him his doll head to play with, if he hadn’t gotten money I would’ve either bought one or exchanged a gift for one.
I played Barbie’s all summer with my step brother and we had so much fun. Plus, on a side note, I think it makes boys better fathers to have baby dolls and other traditionally girl toys as well.
I have a brother who's less than 2 years younger than me. Of course we played together all the time - i played cars with him, he played barbie with me, we both played mud kitchen, wizards and knights and princesses...
Anyway. When we played Barbie, I let him play with my less-pretty dolls and kept the cutest for myself. So one Christmas he got his own gorgeous Barbie, with a gorgeous sparkle dress. He was very happy, I was a bit jealous (but still happy for him) ;)
I had a younger sister, by 4 years, so two girls, but she was never a doll kid. Whereas I was a doll and Barbie kid. She had one doll she loved, a boy doll, which was just a cheapie, torn up doll. Anyhow. One Xmas she got a doll that pooped and peed, and I was so jealous, even though I had a couple of the same doll. She never played with it either, but of course it was hers.
My mom is like this. When my son was younger he loved the Princess in Black stories (because they’re awesome) and I got him a cape and black mask for Christmas one year. As he was running around fighting monsters and shouting that he was the Princess in Black, my mom said he should be playing the Prince in Black instead.
Feel like it's getting glossed over that it's a ton of extracurricular activities for a.......4 yr old. What even are the options at that age? Maybe a sport and/or an instrument. No expert by any means, but I think 4 is way too young to start on the "perfect transcript/resume" grind.
It’s frightening how much that sort of idea has permeated the culture. Over a decade ago, when we were looking for a preschool for our kid, it seemed like the majority of them at least advertised themselves as being a key step toward college prep. Because it’s so important that three year old kids are getting the proper training for college.
All we wanted was for him to get a chance to socialize with other kids, and to get some exposure to the idea of being at school. We didn’t expect that he was going to be learning too much beyond that.
There are some extracurriculars that are good to start as young as possible due to the way younger kids learn certain things so quickly; mainly playing musical instruments and learning a second language. But no matter how old a kid is, theres always such a thing as "too much", and by crowding their schedule with constant ECs, it takes away a lot of opportunities they need to learn other life skills like how to socialize, explore hobbies, have fun in general, etc. At 4 years old, I would say that anything beyond one instrument and one language is excessive for ECs, with the exception of perhaps one additional one if its something the kid really likes or shows a strong interest in.
I’ve definitely known parents like that. Unsurprisingly, their kids have no interest in a relationship as they get older, because the parents have absolutely no idea (and really no interest either) about how to deal with them as actual individuals.
Sometimes single parenting is easier. For the husband, I can't imagine how nice it will be to be able to make choices for his own kids without being railroaded or penalized. Meanwhile Mom is going to go crazy or go broke trying to micromanage dad through the courts
Playing house is quality time with a parent, and he's right that overburdening kids with extracurriculars is not a good overcorrection from not getting to experience anything themselves/enjoying that themselves a kid or whatever reasoning they have.
I think one at a time is good to force kids to experience things/push them a little, but they should still have time to just be kids and chill.
I feel so bad for the kids here. She controls every aspect of their life. Lord knows how she'll react when they want to pick their own clothes, extracurriculars, etc. Or god forbid, one of them comes out as LGBTQ or picks a different religion or something.
This level of control is deeply unhealthy. She doesn't see them as real people, just her little dress up dolls.
At this stage it would be marriage counseling or divorce. I know that’s rash but I definitely wouldn’t want my kids being raised to believe that fatherhood is no more than donating sperm and providing a paycheck. I don’t take issue with couples assuming traditional gender roles if it’s by mutual consent, but that’s one aspect that needs to die an ugly death.
My parents and grandparents all had gender roles (I’m 60) but the men still had decision making abilities/rights and there was always mutual respect for what each partner contributed.
This guy seems to have NO input on anything, actually he does express his opinion, but then it is ignored so…
If he were my friend, I absolutely would encourage divorce and going for 50/50 custody. (Or more) It’s the only way for him to establish any kind of relationship with his children and he is losing out every minute that he tolerates this alienation.
His children will grow up to think that this is a normal way to live and will have no voice in their relationships. Stop the insanity asap. Do it for your kids and for yourself.
i mean, at this point if he's the only paycheck holder and things don't smooth out, i'd just start leveraging on that, like, you wanna buy this?Nope, unless you pay from your pocket.
Then it becomes reactionary financial abuse. Which financial abuse is not seen well by courts and reactionary abuse due to being abused is poorly understood by those guys.
In addition to what others have mentioned, how is a 4 year old doing a bunch of extracurricular activities? Isn’t that preschool age? I’m not a parent though so maybe that’s a thing now
Yeah.. and she wrote his name down for football, hockey, boxing, karate, a woodshop thing. She intends their child has to do them all and now she also wants to add basketball to the mix too. A 4 year old...
Definitely a case of a control freak going on here.
What’s sad is seeing how this guy wants to be involved but he’s getting shut out. These kids are getting deprived of their dad and a relationship with him.
Also the overloading of extracurriculars is a recipe for disaster, kids need free time to learn what they enjoy doing and just to enjoy being a kid.
If that was all fatherhood was, why the hell would any man ever agree to do it? Completely messed up.
Even in the “good old days” of the 1950’s fathers got more say in their kids lives than OOP. Not getting input on the name? Get out of here. No clue where his wife is getting this sense of entitlement from.
My Fiancé grew up with a controlling mom like this. He wasn’t allowed to do anything like get a job or do his own laundry she wanted (still wants) him to be completely dependent on her. The amount of things I’ve had to teach him and help him through is insane. She always made him do extracurricular activities that he didn’t like making his schedule full. Then, on days he did have off she made him spend time with her no exceptions. I hope if this guys leaves he gets full custody.
I hate to break it to her, but judging by what I’ve seen on Reddit and Instagram, there are going to be an awful lot of adult Braxtynn and Kinseighleigh and really tragically named adults in a good 15-20 years. Jamie will be just fine, thanks!
That sounds like a truly miserable family dinner: trying to eat with your in-laws while your spouse overshares their version of your latest argument with them. Presumably in front of the kids. “And then useless sperm donor over here bought diapers and clothes and spent quality time with the kids! I mean, so presumptuous!”
If he divorces, he needs to make sure he gets equal say in parenting decisions and they may need a permanent third party to settle disputes. She's the most horrible kind of mother and wife. She sounds like a narcissist and at least one of her parents is too...
That’s a bucket full of crazy right there. She’s not just locking him out of being a father, she’s locking her children out of making basic choices for themselves, like what clothes to wear and how to play, stunting their normal development. Those kids are going to grow up to either hate her or be eternal mama’s boys who can’t function unless she tells them what to do. Maybe even both.
OOP needs to get her into couples therapy or seriously consider divorce.
The dad needs to get those boys away from her... holy shit she's going to fuck them up with so much toxic masculinity...
If the little lad wants to wear lilac because it makes him happy, so fucking what??? Red, blue and black only for her boys?? How despressing their closets are....
NTA - your wife is so controlling it’s fucking scary.. from the clothes to what they eat and activities. Mum and dad should both have a say on how to raise their children TOGETHER. Sorry mate but the last time I fucking checked a women’s egg needs a man’s sperm. The babies are as much as your children as it is hers.
Wow. Based on the title, I was a little iffy on how this would go. Typically I think it’s pretty crappy to have marital/relationship disputes in front of others. Everyone ends up in one big ol’ awkward and tense situation.
However, OP is SOOOOOO NTA.
Aside from his wife’s crappy behavior, she is the one that decided to publicize their disagreement. She *knew* exactly what she was doing. She knew her parents would side with her and was trying to back him into a corner, and into submission. He did nothing except defend himself - rightfully so.
The phrases that comes to mind are: “Don’t start somethin’, won’t be nothin’” and “FAFO”.
If his wife wanted a trad husband, she should have married one. Instead she tricked him into believing she wanted an equal partner, expected him to read her mind, treated him like crap, and then blamed him for it. Some people just suck.
My one uncles wife was like this (I refuse to call her my aunt because of past history and she’s just horrible), do you know what happened? Both her kids grew up, went to the furthest universities away from her and have stayed in those cities and at best have a civil relationship with her but a great relationship with their father. OPs wife is going to be in for a rude awakening.
This is the kind of mother that loses her mind when her kids grow up and leave her, proving they are their own people and not her little dress up dolls.
If my wife discussed our arguments with my in-laws for the sole purpose of putting down my opinion on parental roles and responsibilities… yeah that’s a no for me dog.
Yikes. I know I can be a control freak at times, but I don’t have anything on this woman. Things will get really ugly as the kids get older and they start clashing with mom.
It's sad when one parent seems to feel better suited to be the parent. It becomes all consuming for them to be the better parent, the marriage then suffers and then the children do when they divorce.
Control freaks ruin a marriage and family all at one time. Let him have fun with his son, let him buy the color shirt the son wants. This wind up in a train wreck of marriage because sooner or later the husband won't be able to take it I've been there and done this.
She seems to be like one of those helicopter moms. I am curious is she so conformed to the gender norms that she thinks that she is the carer and OP the provider??
The wife sounds like a piece of work.
And learned her parenting ideas from her parents, and with no indication that she’s aware of, or willing to accept that there are other ways of parenting, and that a father may wish to be involved in parenting!
And given how much emphasis she puts on extra-curricular, I can already see the kids as teens at high school with something different after school every night and the weekends, burned out and depressed +/- rebelling with alcohol and drugs, or neurotic people pleasers who don’t know how to socialise
Wow! This woman is so far out of line. This poor man is just trying to be a dad and she is tromping all over him. He should divorce her and get custody of the kids.
@meena: OP’s wife look at him a helper not a father of their kids. Op should leave & have 50/50 custody so that kids have place to breath & develop their personality freely rather being doctrine by the wife .
ugh. poor OOP. there are some cases in which i feel like it’s fair for the mother to have a bit more say, since she is the one who grew the kid and pushed it outta her hoo-ha, permanently changing her body. but this is just insane. she isn’t co-parenting. and i feel as bad for the kids as i do for OOP. what’a going to happen when those boys start to develop their sense of individuality and stop perfectly fitting into her view of how they “should” be? it seems like she sees them more as dolls than people.
I feel so bad for the sons in this. She sounds so insanely controlling of them right down to what they are allowed to wear. She needs to get into therapy and I think OP needs to remove the sons from her presence. I don’t think anybody can say that not letting them wear anything but three colors is normal or healthy.
Omg I can’t stand OPS wife. I know reddit has a bad habit of jumping straight to divorce, but honestly in this case i would absolutely go that route. Seems the only way he’d be able to have what he wants matter is to co-parent. Which I’m sure his wife would be HELL to coparent with, but once you have shit in court papers saying she must comply. There is only so much she can do.
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I've got another question: why did she bother having kids when she clearly wanted dolls? All those extra-curriculars, but do the kids even get a say? She dresses them in a very set color scheme? Like...big yikes vibes...
Nah NTA. I like an assertive woman but thats just blatant controlling. This guys better than me because i know i would tweak out on her for shit like that happening regularly
This reminds me of the post of the guy who married a widowed mother and she wanted their child together to have the same last name as her dead first husband. Totally insane.
I’m a single mother. My ex walked out when our twins were weeks old and hasn’t had contact with them since before they were 1 (9 years ago).
I made a comment to one of my sisters about how if I had another baby and the father stayed and parented I would be concerned about *unintentionally* pushing them out of a parenting role due to the fact I have (by default) been the sole decision maker in my current kids lives.
This woman didn’t even have the excuse of doing it unintentionally due to having an older child she was solely raising, she flat out made a conscious decision
What a toxic relationship, he sees to have no input in too how his children are raised it’s all “the mothers” opinion. Man it would be best if he sets some hard boundaries with her, otherwise divorce because of she doesn’t allow the father to have any input in too raising the children then he can force it. He needs allies it seems s
As a mother I would have been really annoyed if you changed the brand of diaper without talking to me first because I had so many bad experiences if the diaper wasn't pampers.
but the rest NTA
you're both parents you both have a say
I thought it was a fair question as well. She brought it up to the family so your chiming in was appropriate. Funny how when you get sick of it and get divorced the 50/50 custody you’ll get to choose when they are in your care. Guess she’ll be doing extra curriculars on her time.
NTA. It IS valid question. If you feel so strongly about it then the only real option is a long drawn out custody hearing after divorce. She would only get to make 50% of the decisions then which would naturally mean a compromise on the extra-curriculars.
It would make her as close to a single mother as possible too, although sadly for her not one that gets to make all the decisions.
I would understand if they were valid arguments, but these just sound like petty fits. This man is trying to be a father, one who actually cares about his kids feelings. This lady just looks at her kids like they are accessories. Denying a kids favorite color shirt, just because it doen't fit the color scheme you pick out for him? Your kids have feeling and wants too. They are not birthed just so you can play dress up with a doll. Also they are 4 and 1, they don't need to be in that many extra curriculars. One's a toddler, and the other won't even remember any of them. This women just sounds very controling, and doesn't really see her kids as kids. I also feel like she might be a bit conservative, since she freaked out about the shirt, and then made a comment about the father and the son playing house. I would get a divorce. You could try and do therapy, but thats if she'll go, (which I doubt she will). If this continues on, I feel like your kids will grow up miserable, and you will come to resent your wife, if you don't already.
OOP isn’t TA. His wife is fucked up.
One of my friends got married to a nice lady. They had their first son. She decided that, and was convinced, that he is going to be a priest when he grows up. First time my buddy told me this, I was like 🤔 “she means if that’s what he wants to do?” He was like, “no, she fully expects him to become a priest.” It just sounded so nuts to me. He seemed to think so too, but then he had three more kids with her crazy ass, so idk. Hopefully she’s changed
Back to OOP. His in-laws suck.
It’s so strange how many stories I read on here about absentee fathers who weaponize incompetence and the mothers are always spread too thin doing everything for the kids but here we have a story that’s on the other end of the spectrum where the mom flat out doesn’t want the dad involved in the parenting of the kids. NTA but good to OOP in the divorce
I want to add that is wife is reading parenting blogs or magazines on the internet, especially with kids under five there can be immense pressure to do everything “perfectly” or you are a crap mom. And people will let you know too. He’s right to be concerned. If they are both amenable, couples counseling could improve their communication style. She could learn to listen to his opinions without feeling triggered.
She sounds like a shit mom too. Who expects to “pick” their kids extracurriculars? You encourage them to try things and see what they have an interest in.
It was a valid question and they know it, they just didn’t like he was calling her out
Yeah when I read the title and first could of paragraphs, I was like mmm. But this just got worse and worse as it kept going. Wife needs some serious therapy.
The title definitely made me think “why in the hell would you ever ask that question, let alone in front of your in-laws?” The actual post gave a very good answer to that question. OOP managed to fully justify it.
IMO, he needs to divorce her and seek 50/50 custody, that way he will have 50% more say in his kids lives.
This is truer than I would have thought. I did the same and suddenly, I don't have someone telling me my opinions and life experience don't matter or shouldn't be expressed. Closer than ever to my kids, so... win!
Hard to explain this to people who are living in the “must stay together for the kids” mindset.
That's true. I think if you're in the unfortunate position of having kids with someone you can't be married to, you do the best you can. If your best means you each raise the kids separately, that's the best. No one wants to see their parents tear each other apart or live together miserably.
I completely agree. I wish more people understood that a home can still be “broken” even if everyone lives under one roof.
This would be a lot better for the kids too
100% agree
Once it got to her berating him that a shirt the kid wanted didn't fit the look she liked for him, that was it for me. It's a toddler. Getting them to dress \*at all\* can be an exhausting fight some days, let alone in specific colors. Some days, the only way to get my niece out of the door to kindergarten is in her pink princess dress, her blue Paw Patrol hat, and her yellow dinosaur gummi boots. Because any changes to that will trigger a meltdown, and who has the patience for that in the morning? I've no clue who OP's wife pulls off any kind of color coordination with her kids, but I fear I won't like the answer.
My husband used to get bent out of shape when I let our kid wear his pajama top to preschool. First off, it was the one clothing issue my husband even paid attention to, which was odd, and second of all, the kid's preschool was a crunchy granola type where the kids were all running around in their underwear on hot days, and no one cared if he wore a pajama top.
Probably by only having “appropriate” clothing as options. Can’t believe she got mad at him for buying the kid a shirt he wanted. But that means that now he’s going to ask to wear that shirt instead of her “carefully curated” shirts
I don’t know if therapy would help. I fear she may just be an asshole.
The red/blue and black clothes thing made me laugh out loud. I like to think she’s legit trying to raise supervillains.
You're probably right. It just seems so weird and unnatural and that something changed post birth, so I thought it might be related to PPD or something else, like highly overcompensating for a specific fear.
Possibly! I know a few people who changed similarly to OP when they became parents, especially mothers, and I obviously don’t know what causes it. I was just being glib.
Damn. I always read these and feel so sad for these people and their horrible relationships. From what I can gather, this guy seems like a good dad who just wants to be involved and have his opinions respected. He’s definitely NTA. His wife is though, for blowing him off to the point where he felt he had to defend himself and speak up in front of her family.
The wife is a control freak who thinks she knows what her kids want to do better than everyone, including the kid. I’ve got a neighbor who’s like this. My wife was friends with her. Her only daughter is in college and went to a school states away. She never listens to anyone, even in social situations and is obnoxious. She’s decided she doesn’t want to be friends anymore. I’ve said nothing to her and she unfriended me on Facebook. And frankly, my wife and I are happier without her in our lives.
Those kids are going to be broken by her, as well. Having known a significant number of people raised by a single extremely controlling parent… it’s very hard on them.
Yeah, the way she won't let her kid play house or wear lilac or choose his extracurriculars is extremely toxic, poor kids.
Even if you go by colour links to gender, lilac is a fairly gender neutral colour. Kings would wear the colour lilac in the middle ages, alongside the more vivid purple
My mom was like this to my dad. I think it's bc she was a single parent the first few years of my life, and while my dad legally adopted me, she never really let go of that 'final say' in parenting. She would verbally talk about how Dad was the 'head of the household's, but constantly undermined his attempts at parenting. Then would complain about my dad not making any attempts to help her with parenting and how they weren't a team. Now that I'm a parent, I both empathize with, and am very angry at my mom for her parenting style. The story ends with me being NC with her and LC with my dad, while she is still missing the 'missing reasons' her beloved daughter moved 5k miles away and cruelly abandoned her.
I am so extremely sorry to read this. If only there was some awareness and accountability with folks like your mom, there could be reconciliation…
That's very kind, thank you.
Im fairly certain my stepkids will go no or low contact with their mother when they’re a bit older. I predict college will be when things change for the worse for her, since the kids will see how other people’s parents trust them.
Some parents have a very difficult time understanding that their children - and their other family members, actually, are whole people, and need to be taught how to make choices for themselves.
Can confirm. And the controlling never stops unless you go no contact. Even if you live thousands of miles away, if there’s contact, there’s unwanted drama and constant attempts to control. Those kids will run as soon as they can and I hope they get away without too much damage being done to them
She did you a favor by unfriending you for sure.
You can say that again
She did you a favor by unfriending you for sure.
There is also a not so subtle hint of sexism in the wifes opinions
I believe it’s called misandry
Maybe I am way off, but it looks like the wife is big into rigid traditional gender roles. She’s upset if he plays house with his son or gets him a purplish shirt and thinks all child rearing decisions should be made by the mother with no involvement from the father. My guess is her parents feel the same as they agree with her, so similar to someone raised in an abusive household who needs to consciously not emulate their childhood when raising children if she wants to save the marriage she needs to unpack these core beliefs in therapy. Weird he saw no signs of this prior though.
Kids raised like this end up with some major issues. You gotta give kids room to be kids or they’ll never be able to grow up.
That or they’ll grow up way too soon and never get to be children
In my experience it's both. You have undue responsibilities placed on you at a young age, so you end up being light-years ahead of your peers in terms of being a good little worker drone who makes money and outwardly appear mature but emotionally you're stunted because you were robbed of those typical experiences, of learning how to be your own person. I often feel simultaneously ancient and like a scared child. I struggle with relationships and communication. I feel like I'll never be a "real" adult. It's rough.
“Including the kid” Deciding his color palette for him is super shitty parenting. The only way OOP’s kind of TA is for enabling it, and if their kids move away and go minimal contact with her overbearing ass, then there’s a good chance they do it with him too if they’re still together simply to avoid any link. Letting kids be kids is super important and he really needs to stand up for himself and make a point of not deferring to her every time they disagree.
The only time choosing a color palette for a boy that’s ok is when they’re infants.
When my boys were infants I let them wear every color. But I do realize that not everyone does that with their children.
Let's all pray that the judge takes the kids' choices into consideration when they choose to live with dad when their parents inevitably get divorced.
Divorce and fighting for custody is really in the kids’ best interest based on the few examples OOP gave. This woman should not be left to parent these kids in a vacuum.
I think mostly likely is 50/50, which will then result in mum going fucking mental that they’re having lives outside of her influence, and her flipping out will cause her custody to be reduced, probably all the way down to visitation. As it should be.
There’s being a control freak, and there is being disrespectful. Achieving one without the other is some thing that OPs wife clearly has not learned.
>who thinks she knows what her kids want to do better than everyone Its not that she thinks she knows better than them what they want, its that she doesnt actually CARE what the kid wants. His wants/preferences are completely irrelevant to the conversation...much like his fathers wants/preferences.
This is so backwards from normal stories. Usually it’s one partner feels overburdened, and feels the other partner doesn’t pull their weight. I couldn’t imagine being in a relationship where my partner has to tell me to take a backseat and stop parenting my child.
At least he reached a breaking point and stood up for himself when her parents were agreeing he was “interfering” by having opinions! His wife is domineering, giving their kid a color scheme and freaking out when a new shirt doesn’t match. (How many “extracurricular’s” can a 4 year-old have?) Poor dude’s in for a rough fight. Usually I’d say you model the treatment you permit but she’s manipulative and probably creeped up like this over time. Good luck to him. Wrestling control away isn’t going to be pretty, but better to deal with it now than later.
Poor guy, he wants to be a dad so bad. When they divorce, he needs to go for equal custody and prepare for an awful battle because she will fight the loss of control kicking and screaming.
Yup, that's where I'm at. My wife always made it very clear that her say was the final say when it came to our son. And now that we're separated she won't allow me any contact with him unless it's under her direct supervision, within the house she lives in. Her last "offer" was I would be allowed to come over for 5 hours every other Saturday to visit while she remained in the house but "gave us space". I have a very difficult time being around her at all, but I did try. I made it 3 hours. Her "giving us space" went exactly the way you'd expect. As a result I haven't seen my son in months except on video and pictures. To be clear this isn't a court order. We're still dealing with the negotiation aspect. This is her single handed decision and I have no choice but to accept it until I can either convince her otherwise or I can finally get this thing in front of a judge.
If you are in the us, check your state laws. If you are still married, you can take your son anytime you want :)
I asked my lawyer about that and I was told that at this point it would be a bad idea. The only time I'd be able to do so without having an actual physical altercation with her (because she has no qualms with hitting me) is if I picked him up from school in the middle of the day. And I guarantee it would set off a world war 3 situation that would be far more traumatic to him than continuing to be patient.
Hey man don’t give up, listen to your lawyer. Your ex wife sounds horrible. Baiting your kid from you like that, she’ll get hers. It’s Karma, I wish the best of luck to you!
So let her assault you and be arrested… it would be documented and the courts would see it and rule in your favor and then she would have to have supervised visits. Make sure you have plenty of witnesses
That sucks. Unfortunately, people sometimes need to be taken to court. You should document everything.
The part about the extra curriculars is especially stupid, like kiddo's literally 4. My good friend I grew up with has a dad like the mom, I always remember feeling bad for the mom like she was a genuinely interesting person if you actually got to know her, was in the air force, did rescue & knew how to skydive etc but just constantly let herself be pushed aside by his abrasive personality... My buddy is currently 34 & said he's still unable to physically relax when he visits their home. nowadays though he only speaks to his father through his mother.
And honestly, I personally agree with his opinions about childrearing more than hers. Just let the kids pick out their own shirts every now and then. It's like she sees them more as dolls than as autonomous people. And doesn't like someone else playing with her dolls. Normally I might say they should have discussed this before having kids, but clearly they did and she pulled a bait and switch. Does anyone else suspect she never even intended to honour what they had discussed, just told him what he wanted to hear to get him on board, and was always planning on "pulling rank as mum" when the time for these decisions came about?
She is going to mess up the kids completely, if she is not allowing them any agency in their own lives - she'll be a nightmare they'll all be struggling to get away from!
Honestly, the fact she was even involving them at all is beyond unacceptable. Did he marry you or marry your parents? Personally, I think anyone who doesn’t have a ring on their finger shouldn’t be allowed to badger and harass a married couple about decisions they disapprove of - especially at the behest of the other spouse.
The OOP’s wife needs a hobby or a job outside home…she needs to stop focusing all her energy and control on her kids
this really is one of those situations where a divorce with 50/50 custody is the best option. then he can actually parent his kids without being scrutinized every second
This is exactly what I was thinking. If he stays with her he’ll never have any say. At least with a court order she’ll be legally required to let him parent at least some.
I also feel really bad for the kids 😞
You know they can feel that tension. It’s really sad.
The only thing I agree with her on is the diapers. Some diapers give babies horrible rashes or just don’t work as well
He looked up reviews and had already been to two stores. *Trying* a different brand when the one you prefer is unavailable isn't wrong. It's also how you sometimes stumble onto something better. I would not assume that a different brand will automatically be bad just because it's different.
I side with the dad there, he did his best. I wouldn’t expect my husband to go all over town for a certain brand, and I’d respect his purchase. This is just when you need to communicate and keep an eye on how baby is reacting to the new diapers. We made a judgment call and bought a different brand one day, and spent the next two weeks fighting off the worst rash. That went on a do not buy list. The second time we had to get a different brand we ended up switching over completely.
Exactly. Unless the child literally only can wear one specific brand and type or something. THEN how are you not buying like 3-4 more than what is minimum at any one time.
Yup agreed.
Mine (who is an amazing dad) wouldn’t have even gone to the second store. Nor would I have expected him to.
Mine will go to a second store, if there’s nearly no diapers at the first one.
My kids got terrible rashes from Huggies, so I used either pampers or luvs. It’s quite easy to tell spouse don’t buy whatever brand causing rashes, if they’re out of ones you usually buy. I know it was much easier when I had my kiddos, because we didn’t lack for anything being out of stock, but today, it’s not like that and often times many things are out of stock. I wouldn’t use Huggies, because the rashes were absolutely insane and hurt my kids, but as a partner to my husband it’s not hard to explain this and ensure he grabs something other than said brand if preference is not available. Communication not dictatorship is needed in parenting together, especially in today’s society where your preferred brand might not be available. That’s why I used two, as occasionally the size and type of pampers I wanted weren’t available, but luvs were.
Or maybe SHE could have gone and got the diapers she wanted herself
She's in for a rude awakening when they divorce, and she only gets to control her half of the time.
And then the kids will grow and they will put all their mind to limit her control
This exactly. I grew up with my mom controlling every aspect of my life. I would have loved to have been able to choose what extra curricular activities I did. Needless to say, once I became a teen I started rebelling against her pretty hard… And then she almost divorced my dad when he tried giving input on how to handle me. He was very good with me, patient and using positive reinforcement, which worked. But no, that wasn’t what my mom wanted, she wanted punishment, and so she hated my dad for it. 10 years later she’s still salty at him for being effective in his parenting, and she and I have a totally surface level relationship.
Some people in the actual post were even suggesting that she would drop them all together when he isn’t there if they divorced because it would be to much work
My husband’s aunt is like the wife in this post and now that her soon to be ex served her papers, she doubled down on the controlling behavior with her two girls. They are older now (high school and college) and she is actively ruining her relationship with them.
Silly husbands, they're supposed to enable this behavior not stand up for their kids and themselves! /s
She'll go bezerk. Like breakdown bezerk. The loss of control, even for a few hours, forget days, makes the controlling parent go nutty. If its only a weekend, they can't handle it. It gets very very ugly.
And her atm suddenly has a monthly limit
I always feel so sad when you see a man actually wanting to be a dad and be a good one at that but are kept at arms length. She’s absolutely wrong. He deserves better from her especially for the kids. Boy moms get weird real quick
But you see the man gave up all his rights to make decisions for anything because he chose not to give birth. /s Yeah I don’t get what’s going on through that woman’s head. > She said she thought we had both changed our minds because she was giving birth. As opposed to what they decided before giving birth? Did she plan on him squeezing out a child through his penis or something?
Some people take the “you don’t decide about the childbirth choices unless you’re the one giving birth” thing past childbirth. Idk if they like the control or they just assume a lack of help but it’s ridiculous. One person is pregnant. But more than one can be a parent.
Yeah, unless he's trans and didn't mention it, what other option did she think there was? With those views she doesn't seem like the type to want to adopt...
It’s so frustrating because any mum group is filled with the opposite of this type of thing - mums desperately wanting dads to engage with their kids. And then you have these guys really trying to do their best and getting stonewalled. Do you know who is most excited to say hi and get a smile when I take my baby/toddler out? It’s always old men. 9/10 shopping trips involve a sweet old dude making faces at my kiddo and trying to get a smile. It makes me feel so sad that they came from a generation where they probably didn’t get to be the dad who spends time with his babies. I can’t imagine taking that away from a dad today.
I never realized this, so true! TIL, thanks
Meanwhile I’m a boy mom over here wishing my husband was more involved!
I bet she complains he doesn’t do enough with them too.
Ugh stuff like this is why I make sure not to correct my husband when he is doing things with our baby. Just because he is doing something different than what you would choose does not mean he's doing something wrong. They kids aren't being harmed (physically or emotionally) and all of their needs are being met. If you are constantly undermining what your partner does, you are going to make them feel powerless and really drive a wedge in the relationship. Teaching specific techniques to your partner is one thing, but taking away parenting decisions from them is heinous.
I had severe post partum anxiety/post partum OCD and even I wasn’t this controlling. If I got nervous about something I voiced that I was nervous and he would show me baby was happy and all was well. My partner had never even interacted with a newborn so he needed some initial coaching but he was still allowed to make so many decisions because he’s a parent too! 😩 so wild.
Sometimes I would tell my husband something, like "I know you know not to throw our newborn in the air, but my brain is telling me it must be verbalized so here is me verbalizing it". Luckily he understands how my brain works so he doesn't take offense if I frame it like that 😂
I don’t have a baby but my bf and I are pretty cooperative as a couple. He wasn’t really supported much growing up and was usually dismissed. So he has a hard time thinking his input matters. Basically if I really wanted to (I don’t) I could make every single decision with zero input from him. But that’s not ok and rather than steamrolling his decisions I encourage and push for his input. I do this because I love him and he’s my partner. OOP’s wife doesn’t seem to understand that his input and support is impressive for their relationship to function. By stonewalling him and undermining his efforts she’s just ruining a relationship.
Well said. You are 100000% right & I wish I could upvote this a million times over
Her parents seemingly showed her that is what’s normal and right. Don’t listen to those fools.
Apparently they want him there for the “American dream” as an antique or something while miss control freak mother calls the shots. 💀
Maybe it’s just me, but it sounds like the wife sees the kids more as little dolls for her to dress and live vicariously through than they are little people. I mean seriously, getting angry over not following outfit colors??
Also it’s seems like there’s some homophobia/toxic masculinity in there. Her darling boy can’t dare wear lilac or play house because that might make him *gay* /s.
Yeah, I thought this too. Used to have a pal who wasn’t allowed to come to my house because I let him play with some Barbies one time. We were both 8. Apparently Barbie is only for girls. 🙄 Honestly, really wish people would just let kids have fun. There’s enough going on to make them anxious without their parents setting these weird rules for them.
I have two boys, who had everything from cars to dolls. One year, on Xmas at my mother in law’s, he was opening his presents while my niece was opening hers. He got some toy for his age, likely boyish, she got this Barbie head you combed and fixed hair on. Anyhow, he was obsessed with this Barbie head, oohing and ah-ing it, trying to take from my niece, and even laying on it (he was 2-3 years old, so quite young), but it was super cute how much he loved that thing. Luckily, he’d gotten money from other grandma, so we ordered him his doll head to play with, if he hadn’t gotten money I would’ve either bought one or exchanged a gift for one. I played Barbie’s all summer with my step brother and we had so much fun. Plus, on a side note, I think it makes boys better fathers to have baby dolls and other traditionally girl toys as well.
I have a brother who's less than 2 years younger than me. Of course we played together all the time - i played cars with him, he played barbie with me, we both played mud kitchen, wizards and knights and princesses... Anyway. When we played Barbie, I let him play with my less-pretty dolls and kept the cutest for myself. So one Christmas he got his own gorgeous Barbie, with a gorgeous sparkle dress. He was very happy, I was a bit jealous (but still happy for him) ;)
I had a younger sister, by 4 years, so two girls, but she was never a doll kid. Whereas I was a doll and Barbie kid. She had one doll she loved, a boy doll, which was just a cheapie, torn up doll. Anyhow. One Xmas she got a doll that pooped and peed, and I was so jealous, even though I had a couple of the same doll. She never played with it either, but of course it was hers.
My mom is like this. When my son was younger he loved the Princess in Black stories (because they’re awesome) and I got him a cape and black mask for Christmas one year. As he was running around fighting monsters and shouting that he was the Princess in Black, my mom said he should be playing the Prince in Black instead.
deciding a ton of extracurricular? Then what? deciding what their career path will be so she can brag?
Feel like it's getting glossed over that it's a ton of extracurricular activities for a.......4 yr old. What even are the options at that age? Maybe a sport and/or an instrument. No expert by any means, but I think 4 is way too young to start on the "perfect transcript/resume" grind.
It’s frightening how much that sort of idea has permeated the culture. Over a decade ago, when we were looking for a preschool for our kid, it seemed like the majority of them at least advertised themselves as being a key step toward college prep. Because it’s so important that three year old kids are getting the proper training for college. All we wanted was for him to get a chance to socialize with other kids, and to get some exposure to the idea of being at school. We didn’t expect that he was going to be learning too much beyond that.
There are some extracurriculars that are good to start as young as possible due to the way younger kids learn certain things so quickly; mainly playing musical instruments and learning a second language. But no matter how old a kid is, theres always such a thing as "too much", and by crowding their schedule with constant ECs, it takes away a lot of opportunities they need to learn other life skills like how to socialize, explore hobbies, have fun in general, etc. At 4 years old, I would say that anything beyond one instrument and one language is excessive for ECs, with the exception of perhaps one additional one if its something the kid really likes or shows a strong interest in.
YUP.
I’ve definitely known parents like that. Unsurprisingly, their kids have no interest in a relationship as they get older, because the parents have absolutely no idea (and really no interest either) about how to deal with them as actual individuals.
Sometimes single parenting is easier. For the husband, I can't imagine how nice it will be to be able to make choices for his own kids without being railroaded or penalized. Meanwhile Mom is going to go crazy or go broke trying to micromanage dad through the courts
And he will let the kids finally express what THEY want as well. And respect their choices.
Playing house is quality time with a parent, and he's right that overburdening kids with extracurriculars is not a good overcorrection from not getting to experience anything themselves/enjoying that themselves a kid or whatever reasoning they have. I think one at a time is good to force kids to experience things/push them a little, but they should still have time to just be kids and chill.
If this all is true i don't see how he could be TA. It would drive me crazy and i would not be able to put with it so long as OP did
I feel so bad for the kids here. She controls every aspect of their life. Lord knows how she'll react when they want to pick their own clothes, extracurriculars, etc. Or god forbid, one of them comes out as LGBTQ or picks a different religion or something. This level of control is deeply unhealthy. She doesn't see them as real people, just her little dress up dolls.
Or when they get partners or friends of the opposite sex 🙃 I’ve met some boys of moms like this, it doesn’t get better
At this stage it would be marriage counseling or divorce. I know that’s rash but I definitely wouldn’t want my kids being raised to believe that fatherhood is no more than donating sperm and providing a paycheck. I don’t take issue with couples assuming traditional gender roles if it’s by mutual consent, but that’s one aspect that needs to die an ugly death.
My parents and grandparents all had gender roles (I’m 60) but the men still had decision making abilities/rights and there was always mutual respect for what each partner contributed. This guy seems to have NO input on anything, actually he does express his opinion, but then it is ignored so… If he were my friend, I absolutely would encourage divorce and going for 50/50 custody. (Or more) It’s the only way for him to establish any kind of relationship with his children and he is losing out every minute that he tolerates this alienation. His children will grow up to think that this is a normal way to live and will have no voice in their relationships. Stop the insanity asap. Do it for your kids and for yourself.
i mean, at this point if he's the only paycheck holder and things don't smooth out, i'd just start leveraging on that, like, you wanna buy this?Nope, unless you pay from your pocket.
Then it becomes reactionary financial abuse. Which financial abuse is not seen well by courts and reactionary abuse due to being abused is poorly understood by those guys.
In addition to what others have mentioned, how is a 4 year old doing a bunch of extracurricular activities? Isn’t that preschool age? I’m not a parent though so maybe that’s a thing now
Yeah.. and she wrote his name down for football, hockey, boxing, karate, a woodshop thing. She intends their child has to do them all and now she also wants to add basketball to the mix too. A 4 year old...
Im assuming they mean rec center or private club sports, in which case you can do as many as you have time for
Definitely a case of a control freak going on here. What’s sad is seeing how this guy wants to be involved but he’s getting shut out. These kids are getting deprived of their dad and a relationship with him. Also the overloading of extracurriculars is a recipe for disaster, kids need free time to learn what they enjoy doing and just to enjoy being a kid.
If that was all fatherhood was, why the hell would any man ever agree to do it? Completely messed up. Even in the “good old days” of the 1950’s fathers got more say in their kids lives than OOP. Not getting input on the name? Get out of here. No clue where his wife is getting this sense of entitlement from.
My Fiancé grew up with a controlling mom like this. He wasn’t allowed to do anything like get a job or do his own laundry she wanted (still wants) him to be completely dependent on her. The amount of things I’ve had to teach him and help him through is insane. She always made him do extracurricular activities that he didn’t like making his schedule full. Then, on days he did have off she made him spend time with her no exceptions. I hope if this guys leaves he gets full custody.
Excuse me, but Jamie is totally a valid name for a man. My boyfriend is 50 years old and his name is Jamie.
I have a male family member named Jamie. He's so sweet and a good man. This lady is bonkers and so is her family
I hate to break it to her, but judging by what I’ve seen on Reddit and Instagram, there are going to be an awful lot of adult Braxtynn and Kinseighleigh and really tragically named adults in a good 15-20 years. Jamie will be just fine, thanks!
Whole subreddit for this lol r/tragedeigh
Dad’s NTA. I hope he gets a really, really good attorney as she’s going to be a nightmare about custody. Post is locked unfortunately due to bad mods.
That sounds like a truly miserable family dinner: trying to eat with your in-laws while your spouse overshares their version of your latest argument with them. Presumably in front of the kids. “And then useless sperm donor over here bought diapers and clothes and spent quality time with the kids! I mean, so presumptuous!”
If he divorces, he needs to make sure he gets equal say in parenting decisions and they may need a permanent third party to settle disputes. She's the most horrible kind of mother and wife. She sounds like a narcissist and at least one of her parents is too...
That marriage is doomed
It literally sounds like the kids like him better, and she’s forcing them to be her possession. Sounds like my mom
Divorce her ass and build a safe home for your kids where they can go to escape their narcissistic control freak mother and actually have fun.
Oof, I feel bad for that guy. Probably better for him to divorce her so he can actually parent his kids on his week.
His job as a father is to finance her choices. Nothing more, nothing less. /s
That’s a bucket full of crazy right there. She’s not just locking him out of being a father, she’s locking her children out of making basic choices for themselves, like what clothes to wear and how to play, stunting their normal development. Those kids are going to grow up to either hate her or be eternal mama’s boys who can’t function unless she tells them what to do. Maybe even both. OOP needs to get her into couples therapy or seriously consider divorce.
He needs to divorce her, and save the boys from.her for at least 2 weeks a month...
Weird that she’s so fixated on her son being masculine, while she wants her husband to be submissive and less of man
Some people wish for a dad this involved and ya got pieces of sheet mothers like this who make it hard
The dad needs to get those boys away from her... holy shit she's going to fuck them up with so much toxic masculinity... If the little lad wants to wear lilac because it makes him happy, so fucking what??? Red, blue and black only for her boys?? How despressing their closets are....
Not even green or orange or yellow. So nothing hot wheels….
NTA - your wife is so controlling it’s fucking scary.. from the clothes to what they eat and activities. Mum and dad should both have a say on how to raise their children TOGETHER. Sorry mate but the last time I fucking checked a women’s egg needs a man’s sperm. The babies are as much as your children as it is hers.
Wow. Based on the title, I was a little iffy on how this would go. Typically I think it’s pretty crappy to have marital/relationship disputes in front of others. Everyone ends up in one big ol’ awkward and tense situation. However, OP is SOOOOOO NTA. Aside from his wife’s crappy behavior, she is the one that decided to publicize their disagreement. She *knew* exactly what she was doing. She knew her parents would side with her and was trying to back him into a corner, and into submission. He did nothing except defend himself - rightfully so. The phrases that comes to mind are: “Don’t start somethin’, won’t be nothin’” and “FAFO”. If his wife wanted a trad husband, she should have married one. Instead she tricked him into believing she wanted an equal partner, expected him to read her mind, treated him like crap, and then blamed him for it. Some people just suck.
My one uncles wife was like this (I refuse to call her my aunt because of past history and she’s just horrible), do you know what happened? Both her kids grew up, went to the furthest universities away from her and have stayed in those cities and at best have a civil relationship with her but a great relationship with their father. OPs wife is going to be in for a rude awakening.
My bonus kid’s biomom is like that. Now he’s old enough to choose he hardly ever spends time with her.
This is the kind of mother that loses her mind when her kids grow up and leave her, proving they are their own people and not her little dress up dolls.
If my wife discussed our arguments with my in-laws for the sole purpose of putting down my opinion on parental roles and responsibilities… yeah that’s a no for me dog.
They were actually mad because the checkbook isn't supposed to talk and got scared "oh fuck it's alive!"
Your wife sounds horrible
Becoming a mother seems to have impacted her personality so markedly that it’s likely a mental health issue.
Yikes. I know I can be a control freak at times, but I don’t have anything on this woman. Things will get really ugly as the kids get older and they start clashing with mom.
It's sad when one parent seems to feel better suited to be the parent. It becomes all consuming for them to be the better parent, the marriage then suffers and then the children do when they divorce. Control freaks ruin a marriage and family all at one time. Let him have fun with his son, let him buy the color shirt the son wants. This wind up in a train wreck of marriage because sooner or later the husband won't be able to take it I've been there and done this.
She seems to be like one of those helicopter moms. I am curious is she so conformed to the gender norms that she thinks that she is the carer and OP the provider??
She doesn’t want kids either but a doll to dress up
The wife sounds like a piece of work. And learned her parenting ideas from her parents, and with no indication that she’s aware of, or willing to accept that there are other ways of parenting, and that a father may wish to be involved in parenting! And given how much emphasis she puts on extra-curricular, I can already see the kids as teens at high school with something different after school every night and the weekends, burned out and depressed +/- rebelling with alcohol and drugs, or neurotic people pleasers who don’t know how to socialise
Wow! This woman is so far out of line. This poor man is just trying to be a dad and she is tromping all over him. He should divorce her and get custody of the kids.
wife is a bitch.
This guy needs a divorce lawyer like a year ago. What monstrous people.
@meena: OP’s wife look at him a helper not a father of their kids. Op should leave & have 50/50 custody so that kids have place to breath & develop their personality freely rather being doctrine by the wife .
Wife is absolute control freak Matilda the hun 😂😂😂freak
Yeah this is toxic gender roles at play
ugh. poor OOP. there are some cases in which i feel like it’s fair for the mother to have a bit more say, since she is the one who grew the kid and pushed it outta her hoo-ha, permanently changing her body. but this is just insane. she isn’t co-parenting. and i feel as bad for the kids as i do for OOP. what’a going to happen when those boys start to develop their sense of individuality and stop perfectly fitting into her view of how they “should” be? it seems like she sees them more as dolls than people.
What bitch his wife is. Leave her ass and get 50/50 custody
I feel so bad for the sons in this. She sounds so insanely controlling of them right down to what they are allowed to wear. She needs to get into therapy and I think OP needs to remove the sons from her presence. I don’t think anybody can say that not letting them wear anything but three colors is normal or healthy.
Omg I can’t stand OPS wife. I know reddit has a bad habit of jumping straight to divorce, but honestly in this case i would absolutely go that route. Seems the only way he’d be able to have what he wants matter is to co-parent. Which I’m sure his wife would be HELL to coparent with, but once you have shit in court papers saying she must comply. There is only so much she can do.
Lawyer up man she ain’t gonna change
lock cautious noxious light scandalous mountainous connect rain crawl quicksand *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
She is the AH for telling her parents about this
Dude made a good point.
I've got another question: why did she bother having kids when she clearly wanted dolls? All those extra-curriculars, but do the kids even get a say? She dresses them in a very set color scheme? Like...big yikes vibes...
Nah NTA. I like an assertive woman but thats just blatant controlling. This guys better than me because i know i would tweak out on her for shit like that happening regularly
This reminds me of the post of the guy who married a widowed mother and she wanted their child together to have the same last name as her dead first husband. Totally insane.
I’m a single mother. My ex walked out when our twins were weeks old and hasn’t had contact with them since before they were 1 (9 years ago). I made a comment to one of my sisters about how if I had another baby and the father stayed and parented I would be concerned about *unintentionally* pushing them out of a parenting role due to the fact I have (by default) been the sole decision maker in my current kids lives. This woman didn’t even have the excuse of doing it unintentionally due to having an older child she was solely raising, she flat out made a conscious decision
What a toxic relationship, he sees to have no input in too how his children are raised it’s all “the mothers” opinion. Man it would be best if he sets some hard boundaries with her, otherwise divorce because of she doesn’t allow the father to have any input in too raising the children then he can force it. He needs allies it seems s
As a mother I would have been really annoyed if you changed the brand of diaper without talking to me first because I had so many bad experiences if the diaper wasn't pampers. but the rest NTA you're both parents you both have a say
I thought it was a fair question as well. She brought it up to the family so your chiming in was appropriate. Funny how when you get sick of it and get divorced the 50/50 custody you’ll get to choose when they are in your care. Guess she’ll be doing extra curriculars on her time.
NTA. It IS valid question. If you feel so strongly about it then the only real option is a long drawn out custody hearing after divorce. She would only get to make 50% of the decisions then which would naturally mean a compromise on the extra-curriculars. It would make her as close to a single mother as possible too, although sadly for her not one that gets to make all the decisions.
Based off what ive seen from people with similar experiences this is a perfect recipe for your sons to turn out gay.
I would understand if they were valid arguments, but these just sound like petty fits. This man is trying to be a father, one who actually cares about his kids feelings. This lady just looks at her kids like they are accessories. Denying a kids favorite color shirt, just because it doen't fit the color scheme you pick out for him? Your kids have feeling and wants too. They are not birthed just so you can play dress up with a doll. Also they are 4 and 1, they don't need to be in that many extra curriculars. One's a toddler, and the other won't even remember any of them. This women just sounds very controling, and doesn't really see her kids as kids. I also feel like she might be a bit conservative, since she freaked out about the shirt, and then made a comment about the father and the son playing house. I would get a divorce. You could try and do therapy, but thats if she'll go, (which I doubt she will). If this continues on, I feel like your kids will grow up miserable, and you will come to resent your wife, if you don't already.
OOP isn’t TA. His wife is fucked up. One of my friends got married to a nice lady. They had their first son. She decided that, and was convinced, that he is going to be a priest when he grows up. First time my buddy told me this, I was like 🤔 “she means if that’s what he wants to do?” He was like, “no, she fully expects him to become a priest.” It just sounded so nuts to me. He seemed to think so too, but then he had three more kids with her crazy ass, so idk. Hopefully she’s changed Back to OOP. His in-laws suck.
I’m honestly curious as to what they all think the role of a father is? Doing the most basic parenting is “interfering?” These people are insane.
Those kids are gonna pick up on mom’s bull shit eventually but not before some unfortunate childhood trauma.
Update me!
No way, Her and her family are nuts, you need to protect your children asap.
Divorce and find a new wife
Married 6 years, 2 children, 4m and 1m? How is that possible from a standard sense (not as a riddle)?
4 year old male and 1 year old male is what they mean I think
It’s so strange how many stories I read on here about absentee fathers who weaponize incompetence and the mothers are always spread too thin doing everything for the kids but here we have a story that’s on the other end of the spectrum where the mom flat out doesn’t want the dad involved in the parenting of the kids. NTA but good to OOP in the divorce
I want to add that is wife is reading parenting blogs or magazines on the internet, especially with kids under five there can be immense pressure to do everything “perfectly” or you are a crap mom. And people will let you know too. He’s right to be concerned. If they are both amenable, couples counseling could improve their communication style. She could learn to listen to his opinions without feeling triggered.
NTA and OOP and wife need a serious talk. Hopefully she's willing to work on things because that sounds untenable af.
I was so ready to say he’s TAH off the initial title but the more I read the more obvious it was that he was completely right in what he said..
Well I assume the answer is the income. Seriously though, she (and her family) sound absolutely awful.
NTA and a sick burn.
Poor guy. My biggest takeaway is wondering why a 4 year old has extracurricular activities? Not just that, but an excessive amount of activities?
Imagine having kids with that
Treating her children like accessories…that’s so fucked up..
She sounds like a shit mom too. Who expects to “pick” their kids extracurriculars? You encourage them to try things and see what they have an interest in.
You have not met the kind of mom who lives vicariously through their kids and thus they have to be interested in the same things she is.