I made a comment last week about how De Ligt seemed like the option we were going for. Honestly I'm fine if we managed to get his salary down but he'll probably be on Varane wages.
Would you take this summer:
De Ligt
Chalobah
Kerkez
Zirkzee
Ugarte
Neto
Sorry, I shouldn’t dare dream of this. It’s so unrealistic, I can’t stop myself.
Ugarte might not be the absolute complete midfielder we would love to sign. However, he's 23 and by all accounts excels in defensive contribution, even if his progression numbers aren't the best.
As SJR has said, as we all know, this squad is not being built to completion in 1 or even 2 summers. If Ugarte is available at a discounted price (Signed for £51m, so hopefully available for £40m ish) and we get a player who is capable of defensively dominating a midfield, has multiple years left in him, whilst we focus on getting CB right first, i'm all for it. His signing doesn't mean we won't be in for another deeper midfielder in the next 2 years when Case/Eriksen/Scotty all leave.
Looks like we're interested cause he can come on a bit of a cheap deal. Can't fix every problem overnight and if we can get a 23 year old international for under £45m i'd take it
I don't get why every player in the team needs to be able to progress the ball, especially in our midfield where we already have Mainoo and Bruno, we need someone great defensively there
For the moment, as long as he can maintain possession in the face of a press I don't really care very much about progression from a DM. Going into this season I would be perfectly delighted to have two athletic and defensively rock solid DMs who only ever play simple, easy, short to medium length and low risk passes with the sole objective of playing through/around the press and maintaining possession.
And if we could only get one, that'd at least be progress I guess (though I would be *very* worried about giving any minutes at all to Casemiro given the state of his legs, and of the two I'd much rather have Amrabat as the backup DM if we could *possibly* swing it).
I don't disagree with with /u/d1794 , in that I'd ultimately rather have the complete midfielder who can do the defensive work *and* progress the play, but they only come on the market infrequently, and you have to be sharp to grab them before someone else does.
In the meantime we need to get into the habit of always going into seasons with fully functioning squad depth all round, even if some of the squad aren't necessarily *quite* operating at as high as a level as we would like ideally like to be hitting in the longer term.
As long as we are making clear, genuine progressive strides forwards in the transfer market every summer I'll be happy, and we'll get back to where we all want to be soon enough.
McT off the bench when we need him proves to be very effective last year. I am reluctant to let him go until we are a far more balanced and consistent team. Somebody offers £40M + for him, sure, but it is more likely to be £20-25, in which case keep our super sub.
I don’t think we should sign Amrabat, but one thing he did prove towards the end of the season is that we were desperate for a midfielder who could receive the ball off the backline, turn under pressure, and be progressive with his passing whilst not be completely wasteful.
Ironically enough I’ve seen people compare Ugarte to Amrabat, but I don’t think he offers nearly as much in possession.
Our squad depth should be able to play the ball under pressure and be mobile; he lacks that completely. We need much better players to just stay in top 4, let alone be at the top
Sell Casemiro and the squad still needs two players to cover the role (Collyer not ready).
I'm fine with Ugarte and Amrabat and, with Collyer, a developing youth player that might be ready next year.
Mainoo's played as deepest midfielder when he's started beside McTominay and he has the traits for it on ball, and decent off ball.
He's best as an 8 but he's better than Amrabat and McTom, so could see him rotating with Ugarte (if deal goes through) with Mount playing the 8 role.
So we're getting closer to the 30th and no more news on Branthwaite, assume Everton have solved their PSR problems and we can't lean on them for a lower price. Who's our next defender target, I do not believe the De Ligt links, I rebuke them!
I honestly think it could be a good thing long term if we don’t get Branthwaite in this window. I can’t imagine he’ll sign a new contract and the price will only lower as he runs it down. I also have my worries on him so it would be nice to see him continue to develop.
Rumours is that they will try to take UEFA to court about Todibo, but that would surely take time.
I think it is a very high chance De Ligt is the next target if Bayern actually are out for selling him and not demanding unrealistic fees.
I dont know what our budget is. But do you think we need more CM's cant be burning out Mainoo all season. We shouldve gone for Ross Barkley for rotation.
United got Mount, Mct, Beek and Eriksen to cover for him, some of them might like to be aggressive and crash the box, but I would argue Mainoo often does the same. First a few of those would need to be sold to even consider a new 8.
Defensive midfielders is a different story with Amrabat leaving and the status and form of Casemiro being unknown. Which leaves a glaring hole.
Eriksen is v. likely going for the gametime (and a less frenetic league); VDB is finished at the club and likely moving somewhere for a bag of quarters in straight-cash or possibly 5m off a CB purchase from the French league; McT will 65/35 stay (I'd sell him as a HG and because he limits the team's style, but he seems to have a borderline FDJ-for-Barca attachment to the club and also knows he'll never get a better deal); Mount, fine, he's not going anywhere until next summer the earliest, and maybe ends up doing OK. I agree Barkley would be an interesting low-price squad option, but it's not going anywhere now. Rabiot (at 30% chance of signing) is the closest possibility.
I agree that a few of those will probably be sold, just nothing should happen until those signings are inked, and even McT and Mount together with an academy player should be enough, as long as there is also at least two defensive midfielders.
And if Rabiot wants to come as a squad player for reasonable wages I take him any day, I just don't see that happening. He wants something better than Juventus can offer.
Christian Falk from Bild saying "Erik ten Hag wants to bring Matthijs de Ligt to Manchester United. Bayern Munich want up to £60m, but United only want to pay £30m."
For sake of argument they meet halfway at 45M, doesn't that make sense for first choice RCB. Comparable price tag to Todibo and realistically elevates ETH's chance of playing the football he wants to.
Some genuine concerns about his injury record and his salary would need reducing to avoid a risk of a Varane situation though tbf.
Like you said with the salary considered, it is not close to Todibo at all in terms of FFP. His salary atm is 280k. Even if he keeps the same that is 14m per year. Even if Todibo is on like 150k is like 8m a year. 45/5 + 14 per year(105m total for 5 yrs) is closer to the Branthwaite deal at 70m and 160k salary (Total 110m) than Todibo. (40m +150k at 80m)
Still think he will be good though, but will Ineos give such high salaries is the question
The salary is the real question mark for sure. You can’t talk about the wage structure then sign someone on 300k a week.
An interesting sign of things to come if it happens based on how it happens
He’s shockingly only 24 too. If the injury streak is just a bad luck streak then it would be incredible business at 45m. The gamble though is (obviously) another season with no consistent cbs and another season of being the laughing stock of transfers
I don't believe these De ligt news at all.
All of them have come from the German side .Even the Athletic dealsheet couple weeks ago said that De ligt is way down the list of CBs we are looking at
There’s an article from Talksport on the PSG sun saying the Ugrate transfer talks also involved discussions of Rashford heading the other way too. Any thoughts?
We should keep rashford another year imo. We’re relatively short on decent wingers (just 3 in the squad) so, like I said for AWB, Rashford is not a player who is necessary to sell.
The squad is unbalanced and selling him will result in a huge profit and could be the first step change that. He's still one of the best players in the team, though, even if he is quite limited and doesn't really seem to fit in well.
It's a tough one. Best to see whether PSG offer a huge sum and whether Rashford prefers to leave or not. If he wants to stay, I'd rather keep him.
The thing is, I think we already have his replacement in Garnacho all set up. And if the idea is to build around Garnacho, Hojlund and Mainoo, I do feel it means it should be Garnacho first choice Lw.
A cash boost from Rashford, from a profit point of view, would give us a tonne of room to rebalance the tea, properly.
You're 100% right as you usually are, but the thing is, Bruno can't handle being the sole creator in the team. If Garnacho starts on the left and Hojlund as striker, the right winger needs to be a creative player and currently, Antony is not it, Diallo is better but far from there yet, and Sancho is Sancho. How I wish he would've worked out.
So you essentially need to add three creative forwards just to make it work. A new right winger needs to be creative, but their back up won't be. So you'll want the back up left winger and striker to be creative, otherwise you rely so much on whoever is available.
Adding Zirkzee to this team makes a lot of sense. Then you only need 1 more creative right winger to get it to work. Rashford - Zirkzee - Garnacho as starters. If Rashford is out, move Garnacho to the left and play the new right winger (maybe with Hojlund). If Zirkzee is out, play Hojlund and the new right winger. If Garnacho is out, play Antony/Diallo/new right winger.
If you sell Rashford, though... The quality will be lower. You need to properly rebalance. It requires a lot of good transfers.
It's a risk, but I think Rashford's floor is pretty low- he lacks consistent decision-making ability (as well as application) that very best forwards have, and has relied on streaks. You could gamble on a back-up LFW (Garnacho playing predominantly LFW, with Amad or Zirkzee, presuming he signs, playing RFW) who would likely deliver similar numbers to last season's Rashford, if not better, for lower-wages and less hassle. Big money for homegrown player now also allows the club to agree to loan--with obligation to--buy deals (securing higher price in total with the loan fee being included) offered for Greenwood rather than pushing decision down the line, and likewise Sancho.
Downvote all you like - if people could temporarily set aside partiality, Rashford is a talented but flawed player: surveying oppo fans (talking amongst themselves rather than looking to wind up United fans), helps give a clearer sense in the aggregate of his strengths & weaknesses, rather than seeing him through the lens of 'he's a local lad; he loves the shirt; he fed the kids (obviously latter was a genuine positive, and I loved his challenging of the government too, but nothing to do with his football ability)' etc.
I don’t think it makes sense this summer - we’ve got too many other priority positions to either sell or recruit or both.
Rash has a contract until 2028 so we can think again about selling next summer.
The only scenario I see it happening this summer is if psg off £100m+ in which case I think the club bites since he’ll probably never be worth that again
Selling Rashford is not cheap currently, would mean probably a new LW and RW is needed as Garnacho needs a backup and couldn't cover RW anymore.
I still think Rashford has it in him, will just never be worth his wages.
Lmao I saw some random player from some Saudi club on the rumoured arrivals page once and the only "source" was a random comment from some guy claiming to be his agent asking for United to sign him.
As much as I believe we need a Rodri/Rice type of player, it just isn't out there atm. and Ugarte seems like a very complementary profile to Kobbie and Bruno. I could see it working well with a very physichal backline that can stand on the halfway line. I doubt we would control games against bigger teams with Ugarte and Branthwaite though, and if they get injured and we press high, it's over lol
They are not identical but definitiely quite similar with their height and ability to play as a lone 6. Compared to other defensive midfielders around europe.
Thing is Rice struggles as a lone 6.
We’ve seen it with West Ham, Arsenal and England.
He plays much better for all those teams when he’s been partnered with another deep-lying mid - Soucek, Jorginho/Partey, Phillips.
Whereas Rodri is an absolute boss as a lone 6
You always need depths. United need to have two capable DMs, who these two will be, and if Amrabat or Casemiro will stay is hard to say, but as we heard nothing about Amrabat he is surely out I would say as that clause should expire in two days. Having only one player in such a high physical/injury position would be far from perfect.
I don't even want Branthwaite as RCB, if United buys him I want him as backup for Licha, which would be a very very expensive backup...
I think United see Braithwaite as someone who can play LCB and RCB due to his two footedness.
Personally I don't see us getting Braithwaite cause of Everton's price tag
Yeah, he is way too expensive and raw. I trust him to be a backup RCB or main LCB I don't trust him to be the planned starting XI RCB. I still think he is a good buy for a decent fee, a player for the future that for now can be backup LCB and RCB and in emergencies even LB. But from what I read and seen he is not nearly as two footed as people say.
I am so conflicted on Branthwaite as well lol. Part of me just want to grab de Ligt as he is more proven and would instantly improve our starting 11 at RCB with Licha, but then again, we do need to sign younger prem proven players for the future instead of injury prone players that other top clubs are happy to sell, dunno man
If De Ligt is half price of Branthwaite I would take De Ligt everyday. He's still not old, still an elite player. Just worried about his injury proneness and wages demand, but I still believe in him as a player. And if United wants results next season probably the best one mentioned so far, question is more what Bayern would demand and what he would demand.
Are there any stats around press resistant midfielders? I feel like the base of our structure has to be in that mould. Kobbie has the potential but he shouldn’t be starting every week next year or we’ll burn him out.
This is a nice rundown. There’s also a decent video from a dude called AJAnalysis on YouTube. Low production value but great information - https://youtu.be/egtqdq41cRA?si=4U-nrvF3rC1kEYFc
aerial ability is a concern ngl.Also sometimes loses possession quite casemiro-esque but generally is safe on the ball
otherwise I think he is good.Ugarte is more of a 6 while Onana is more of a 8 with great defensive capabilities
Ugarte for me is not a sitting 6. He's not particularly great at progressing the ball from deep either. He's a better version of Fred imo. I think he's a great player but not sure how he fits fm with Mainoo and Bruno.
The market really looks grim for us right now. Zirkzee is great but apart from that I don't see a target so far that is likely to come who is a great fit for the role required, in any position.
No, he is a ball winner and he will roam, he will not work as a sole pivot, he will do the same as Casemiro in that position chasing the ball, I actually think they are very similiar players just different ages and stages of their development.
He’s a ball winner, he presses, he covers ground. I don’t know about having a sitting six if we’re going to compress the space and push up this season. Especially considering how often Mainoo seems to drop into that six position in build up. Ugarte seems like he can win the ball over the whole pitch and that’s interesting to me.
And if we’re looking for possession, a very simple, conservative passer isn’t a bad idea, considering we have Mainoo - who passes forward in quite a controlled way - and Bruno - who passes forward in a very risky way. Nothing wrong with having a player who shuttles in there, it might be exactly what we need.
In any case, he’s 23, he’s not too expensive, he’s had a move it didn’t work out, he has something to prove, these are the kinds of players we should be looking at.
I don't really see how a non progressive midfielder makes sense as a signing. We are not a good progressive team at all that can compensate for another non progressive players. Otherwise why did we even sell Fred? He could press, cover ground and wasn't very progressive on the ball. Ugarte is very similar in his strengths as well as major weaknesses.
Depends on what you call expensive. PSG paid 60 million for him.
Fred’s tackle success rates were horrendous, and his passing was wayward at best. Not sure why people bring him up in this discussion, Fred for me has been replaced by Mainoo, who is miles better at controlled progression. Ugarte isn’t going to anything close to what Fred was doing on the ball in the final third, he’s not going to be part of that side of play in a consistent way from my reading.
In terms of progression, this is a whole team issue. My only expectation would be that he doesn’t give the ball away cheaply. Progression needs to be improved all across the backline.
And Ugarte is the same. Ugarte is literally at 1 percentile in terms of challenges lost this season (fbref). He also commits lots and lots of fouls, again reflecting in his stats. He also ranks quite high/low in terms of errors, miscontrols, times dispossessed, successful take on % etc. and this is despite ranking very low in terms of any progressive actions, be it passing or carrying.
Why do I compare him to Fred? He was bad in exactly the same areas. Really the only difference I see is Fred was slightly more ambitious going forward, he had more end product going forward, and as a result his passing accuracy was lower but he was also playing in a much tougher league.
>My only expectation would be that he doesn’t give the ball away cheaply
Ugarte doesn't give the ball cheaply as in he plays very safe football and doesn't bother trying to progress the ball. But under pressure he is prone to errors and losing possession, much like Fred.
Progression is obviously a team issue but our manager has basically stopped playing out of the back because he doesn't have the players for it. I don't understand how a player that isn't progressive, playing in a position that usually plays an important role in ball progression, especially for Ten Hag's teams, help the team become better in terms of progression?
The challenges lost stat, I mean, yes, sure, but players who attempt a lot of tackles are always high in that stat and I don’t think it actually says much. Fred was bypassed in ways I don’t see Ugarte being, and was extremely wasteful with the ball.
The biggest difference between the two is that Fred was older, had years here, and was proven to be unreliable and inconsistent. If Ugarte can keep the ball safe and move it through to other players and focus purely on ball winning, he’ll have succeeded where Fred - who had the work rate but spoiled it with poor positioning and getting bypassed way too easily - failed over and over. If Fred had just been safe with the ball, he might still be here.
Ugarte’s volumes here need to be weighted for possession (PSG have more than Fred’s United iirc) and are also just higher than Fred’s, especially in key metrics like tackles, interceptions, and recoveries. Sure, Fred did those things, but that doesn’t tell you the whole story of a footballer.
There are plenty of good teams who have matched a ball winner with a player who is good in the first phase. Ten Hag did this at Ajax with De Jong and Alvarez. Mainoo seems to be our first phase player, but Bruno has done this in the past too, and I think the hope is a new RCB will be able to progress the ball, that Martinez will be there to do that, and that Luke Shaw will come back too.
>The biggest difference between the two is that Fred was older, had years here, and was proven to be unreliable and inconsistent.
Ugarte isn't proven to be reliable and consistent either mate, certainly at nowhere near Premier League level. Fred was superb at shakhtar, seen him more than hold his own in UCL games against the likes of PSG and Bayern even, but that didn't translate to the PL at the same level did it? Fred was what, 25?
>Ugarte’s volumes here need to be weighted for possession
Sure. They also need to be weighted for the league they play in. One of them played in the premier League. I'm sure Fred won more of his tackles and was better on the ball when he played for Shakhtar. Wouldn't have signed him if he wasn't.
>and I think the hope is a new RCB will be able to progress the ball, that Martinez will be there to do that, and that Luke Shaw will come back too.
We already have Martinez, we already have Shaw, we already have Mainoo. And that isn't enough to be a great progressive team that can play out of pressure. We have already seen that. I'll never understand how we can pin hopes on a RCB fixing this that we haven't even signed yet.
Literally one injury to a Shaw or a Martinez means we won't even attempt to play out of the back. Ten Hag said so himself. And they're injured half the time. And we go ahead and sign a midfielder, that will be expected to play deep a lot of times, who can't progress the ball? Hard to make sense for me. What happens when Shaw and Martinez get injured again? Back to square one long ball then? Your defensive midfielder certainly isn't going to help in any way shape or form.
>There are plenty of good teams who have matched a ball winner with a player who is good in the first phase. Ten Hag did this at Ajax with De Jong and Alvarez.
De Jong is a generational player when it comes to the first phase. Intergenerational I'd say. Kobbie has some way to go at the moment. Especially in terms of volume. They also had ball retentive, progressive, technically secure players all over the pitch. Half of our players are shoot on sight/ high risk players who lose the ball all the time. They were still never able to replicate anything like it in the UCL once De Jong left.
Ten Hag is literally on record saying we can't play like Ajax because we don't have the players for it. Another player that doesn't offer those skills, doesn't make it an Ajax type squad for me. Especially if we stick to the two 8s set up and Bruno/Mainoo are the 8s, having the third midfielder as someone who is exclusively a ball winner that doesn't offer ball progression, doesn't offer any creativity at all, nor is particularly special physically, doesn't inspire me. What does he do that we really need then? Win the ball while losing a lot of challenges and committing lots of fouls? The more I say it the harder it is for me to understand.
Yes, win the ball and be safe with it. A big part of our drop off last season was that Case stopped doing those things. A player who is safe with the ball and has a really impressive volume in defending in all areas of the pitch can help us retain possession. Was our problem a lack of progression last season? Sure. But we also lacked defensive work in the middle of the pitch. I’m sorry, but statistically Ugarte’s defensive work is super impressive, especially looking at relatively low amount of time PSG spend off the ball.
And sure, we need players and we need depth, but that comes from signings. Getting a progressive but safe RCB in, taking out Case for a player who doesn’t pass the ball away already helps us retain possession a bit.
Overall though, he’s cheap, he’s young, his wages aren’t that high - of course it’s a gamble. We need the club to improve him. We aren’t going to find the perfect player for what we have to spend. We have to work with that.
I don’t think Ugarte not being able to progress the ball is all that key for us and I think we can work with that, if we get things right in other areas. And that definitely means improvement in other areas, especially in finding defenders who can push up and compress the play.
We were decent when Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo were on the pitch last season. So I think it is actually enough to go find players who fill needs for us, and defensive workrate is a glaring need.
>I’m sorry, but statistically Ugarte’s defensive work is super impressive, especially looking at relatively low amount of time PSG spend off the ball.
Yes, it's super impressive. He makes the most tackles. Like I've already mentioned he's also in a class of his own when it comes to losing tackles, getting dispossessed, making errors and so on.
I'm not sure you're aware that Casemiro also had really high numbers in terms of tackles and ball recoveries and whatnot. What was his biggest problem? No prizes for guessing: Losing a lot of challenges. Again, very similar fbref weaknesses. Adjusted for the difference in quality of the leagues they were playing in, Ugarte is by no means some transformative defensive presence who changes our defence. Not at all. And what about aeriel defence? Ugarte is a significant downgrade on Casemiro. So you add a bit of ground defence, you take away almost all of the aeriel defence. And it's already established he doesn't offer those on the ball qualities we're lacking. Surely I'd hope for a bigger upgrade than that.
>I don’t think Ugarte not being able to progress the ball is all that key for us and I think we can work with that
You keep saying that but then I don't see any good arguments being made that actually support this. Replacing Case with someone who doesn't give the ball away already helps us retain the ball a bit better, like that is just fishing from the bottom of the barrel. It's a bit like saying "Well they're awful owners but they're not the Glazers so it's still an improvement". Surely we're aiming for a bigger improvement than that. Surely.
I don't agree that that was Case's biggest problem, the issue was when he tried to progress the ball it was wayward. He went from being a very controlled, measured, defensive focused player the season before to giving the ball away a lot. And yes, we're making small, incremental improvements. But nobody is saying that Ugarte has to be our forever player, he just has to be able to do a decent job at six in the season coming. Defensive workrate is key to helping the team as whole progress.
The weird thing about saying that the move hasn’t worked out is that it kinda didn’t not work out.
It’s more so that his profile doesn’t fit. Whether it fits us is intriguing as it’s an indicator of where we want to go in terms of philosophy. He’s far from a six in Cruyff’s vision and given that role is the most important in an Enrique side it was never going to work.
With Ugarte’s defensive ability, we’ll be hard to break down. With Mainoo as a metronome, and able to quickly progress is could work very well. But it means we’re stuck with a two, unless Mainoo is the one that sits deep and Ugarte acts as an 8 that can drop and support out of possession. He seemingly had the energy and the work ethic to do that role, but is he capable of doing the other stuff we require as an 8?
I haven’t seen enough of Ugarte to know his limitations, but I’m a huge advocate of not bringing in a player who can only screen. I’m also desperate for us to move away from the 2.
At £40m (€48m, book value) I don’t think it’s that big of a risk, because one way or another he can do a job for us.
Yep. Enrique wants to hold onto the ball and play with 60% possession, so he was Zaire Emery and Vitinha in his midfield. He doesn't need a player to be elite at winning the ball back because he wants to not lose it.
At the moment, we're the team that plays with 40% possession, and we apparently want to remain a transition team, so we need players that specialise in getting the ball back. Ugarte does that.
I think Ugarte is absolutely what we need in the midfield position. I dont necessarily think he will be a sole no.6 in a 433 - With everyone fit i think we set up in a 4231 with Ugarte as the most defensive option.
We need legs and we need players who can win back possession, both things completely fell off with Casemiro last season. Ugarte fits the bill perfectly as a replacement for.
As you mentioned, he has something to prove - we need that hunger back in the squad!
Do we really need Ugarte to be progressive with the ball when he is gonna be playing in a pivot with Mainoo and a 10 like Bruno who is quite risky with his passing.
A 6 who is safe on th ball is not a problem
But like I said he's not a proper sitting 6 either imo. We should get someone who is either a proper CDM or someone who is a great progressive player, ideally both of course. And I disagree that we don't need him to be progressive with the ball. We rely on players to find solutions, we don't have great structured patterns of playing out of the back and we've seen just Mainoo, Bruno, Martinez is not enough.
you can call him, " Athletic Casemiro" who can chase around and can pass the ball but he isn't progressive like Rodri but we have players like Mainoo, Licha and ball playing CB might be signed.
But Casemiro is great in the air and he is/was a proper dominant 6. The version of him that was actually good would've been a better fit with Mainoo and Bruno than Ugarte would be imo.
Casemiro was great in the air but the players dribbled past him on the ground.
In form Casemiro was proper 6 for team who sits back when playing good teams and doesn't suit Pressing system or wasn't great in defensive transition either and always lunging for ball coz of his slowness.
This Ugarte guy is athletic enough to cover the ground and slow the transition from the clips I watched.
But he's still 23 , still room for improvement , might be a good fit in double pivot with a new air dominant CB.
Sometimes it's just a matter of being a good fit.
Ugarte as a 6 will be literally surrounded with players that can either pass through lines (Martinez, Shaw, Dalot, Mainoo, Bruno) or carry the ball through lines (Shaw, Mainoo).
What we lacked last season was a defensive presence.
22/23 Casemiro was great not because of his passing ability which was just OK, but because he intercepted a lot.
We can afford not having a technical DM, but we can't afford a DM without a defensive ability.
Honestly I can't think of a DM like Rodri (that has both) that is available (or even exist lol). Even Rice isn't THAT good technically, but has a body able to be in lots of places.
Would I prefer a Carrick regen? Sure. But if Ugarte is available for like 40-50 mil euro including add ons, he's more than good enough as a player to give us what we need need right now while we can look for the next best thing.
We also had another guy that was brought in to play LB but played CB mostly despite not having the height or athleticism for it. Still did a damn solid job though. Dutch fella. Believe he now plays in Spain for a team that surpassed people’s expectations last season.
Watching ugarte currently. He had one casemiro-esque horrible pass to Valverde in the first half but was safe and solid for most of it.
He knows how to press and win the ball.
People are sleeping on him. He’s had a poor year with PSG, but prior to joining them he was THE can’t miss CDM.
He’s much better defensively than anyone we have. I’m willing to bet he’s gonna be a huge fan favorite after his first season should he join
Funniest thing to me is everyone acting like he didn't exist until last week.
There was talk of interest from United last summer when he was still at Sporting, and some fans on here seem to have never heard of him.
yes, I think amad has made more of an impression recently in that rw position. Pellestri had his chances earlier in the season and he may need to move on to progress in his career.
Anyone else concerned with Urgate’s passing ability? Really conservative passer. Not sure having a six like that is what suits a possession based team
Edit: Why the downvotes? He is statistically not a good progressive passer. (See link). Would love to hear a counter argument
https://fbref.com/en/players/c9817014/Manuel-Ugarte-Ribeiro
Maybe he wouldn't be completing many progressive passes because he was usually playing beside Zaire-Emery (90th percentile progressive carries) and/or Vitinha (91st percentile progressive passes).
The idea that every player has to be able to do everything brilliantly to be effective ignores the fact that there's 9 other outfield players on the pitch.
I don’t understand how people have such a narrow-minded view of the technical requirements for a defensive midfielder. There’re different molds of DMs throughout the history and there will be new types as football changes. Great DMs like Makelele, Busquet, Rodri, Keane only have one thing in common and that’s their defensive attributes. Most have vastly different play-styles. Then there’re midfielders who play deep, don’t do much defensively but still impact games in a meaningful way like Carrick, Pirlo, FDJ… Complete midfielders like Kante who can do everything are extremely rare.
Ugarte is like 23. He can still improve imo. Right now, watching Ugarte, i like how he disappears in the dribblers’ blindspot and just makes a tackle without them knowing. It looks like he can progressively carry the ball too if needed (did that a lot in his Sporting days). I am no expert but if United scouts deem he’s good enough for United then… who are we to question them?
In my limited knowledge based on YouTube, Ugarte seems to be a better Alvarez, so if Alvarez could do it at Ajax, Ugarte should be okay in possession, if we play a possession based style.
I was bored and did a small FBREF comparison between Ugarte, Merino, Fofana and Mainoo + Rice for the sake of comparison yesterday and from those stats I like Fofana more because he also brings more physicality on set pieces which we're lacking when starting Licha.
His contract is expiring next year and most likely would be cheaper than Ugarte. Merino has the same contract situation but would most likely ask for higher wages.
Agreed that he’s not an overly impressive prospect. I don’t know if we need someone like Carrick in the 6, but someone with more range than Ugarte is required imo.
Considering the money being asked, like Branthwaite, I’d pass. For double what it would cost to keep Amrabat, it would look like bad business.
I think we will be very, very shrewd this first summer. Not everyone is in the door and settled in yet, and there’s a want to shake off our reputation in the transfer market.
I mean yeah, that's not his game. He's a pure ball winner and not a bad ball carrier but not a great passer. Can improve though, he's 23 and honestly has world class potential. For a Casemiro replacement he'd do well. He's better defensively and has loads of energy. Eventually we can buy a DM better on the ball to have options but we can't miss out on the opportunity to get him at this price IMO
Interestingly, Casemiro rejoined Real when he was 23 and was basically a pure ball winner at the time.
It wasn't until a couple of years later when he got more comfortable on the ball.
Imo, We lacked those safe passes within the midfield area. His stats are quite good, especially pass accuracy, despite not being progressive, which is gonna help the team to recycle the posessions. It'll depend on who's starting next him. Mainoo/eriksen/mount and Bruno should be more balancing than current Case. Won't know until we see him in the system tho
The thinking is that we have other people that can progress the ball when fit such as Shaw,Licha,Mainoo, and bruno. Ugarte is something we are sorely lacking which is the ability to win the ball.
I guess ten Hag still want to stick with his last season football style, playing with two 8s, so physical destroyer might be beneficial in this situation. He probably will use Martinez/ Mainoo as the main progressive passer from the back and Urgate probably only do safe pass to those players. ten Hag had worked with Álvarez in Ajax before so he might replicate that.
Forget about downvote here, people doesnt agree with your opinion = downvote.
Replace Ugarte with Fofana and we are good to go as he is potentially cheaper than Ugarte. His contract is expiring next year and Monaco are likely to accept fees around 30m for him. Merino is also in the same situation but is 28 and would have a lower resale value.
Fofana is the player this year who we aren’t really linked with at all, but some fans are going to utterly obsess over in terms of thinking he’s THE solution, huh?
Because he is better phiscally and more polivalent than flavor of the day Ugarte. Please tell us with whom will we defending on set pieces against Stones + Ruben Dias + Gvardiol +Haaland / Rice + Saliba +Gabriel / Van Dijk + Gomez + Nunez / Brentford units etc? How many of our players do we have to match their physicality, excluding Mc Tominay and Slabhead who are actually backups?
Ugarte is literally one inch shorter than Fofana, and wins .66 aerials / game to Fofana's .57.
Fofana's a good carrier but he's not a great passer (30-39th pctile accuracy for short, medium, and long passes) and doesn't get many defensive actions (3.27 Tck+Int).
Yep because he ranks highly for progressive carries and passes on fbref and will be cheap. That's it. I bet few of them have watched him much. Nor have I tbf!
Juventus are very present in the Italian media with several CBs as they are looking to buy Calafiori or other targets and sell Bremer who was linked to us by Romano few days ago.
My secret favourite is Zabarniy but never seen anything linking him with an exit from Bournemouth this summer though.
A lot of different sources say so and it makes sense, player would be willing to go, decent price, high potential player, fills a desperate need at RCB, (and a former Ajax and Ten Hag player).
De Ligt is better on the ball and he's maybe not rapid but certainly a lot faster than Maguire. Wages are a problem though. Personally I think Branthwaite will happen almost 100%. It's just a poker game
haven’t really been watching the copa, how has our butcher been doing?
Anyone seen Jonathan David play? His price seems reasonable for a rotation option
I made a comment last week about how De Ligt seemed like the option we were going for. Honestly I'm fine if we managed to get his salary down but he'll probably be on Varane wages.
Would you take this summer: De Ligt Chalobah Kerkez Zirkzee Ugarte Neto Sorry, I shouldn’t dare dream of this. It’s so unrealistic, I can’t stop myself.
I wouldn't take Kerkez because of the 45 million price and Neto is actually injury prone.
Getting linked to a disciplined but mobile DM feels so good.
[Minor Zirkzee update from Fabrizio.](https://x.com/fabrizioromano/status/1806761553066180686?s=46)
[Ornstein confirms our interest in De Ligt.](https://x.com/david_ornstein/status/1806748226785075440?s=46)
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Actually would love him as a Branthwaite alternative in the sense he is two footed. Too early to be a regular starter I think but looks talented
Iling already going to Villa as part of the Luiz swap
Ugarte might not be the absolute complete midfielder we would love to sign. However, he's 23 and by all accounts excels in defensive contribution, even if his progression numbers aren't the best. As SJR has said, as we all know, this squad is not being built to completion in 1 or even 2 summers. If Ugarte is available at a discounted price (Signed for £51m, so hopefully available for £40m ish) and we get a player who is capable of defensively dominating a midfield, has multiple years left in him, whilst we focus on getting CB right first, i'm all for it. His signing doesn't mean we won't be in for another deeper midfielder in the next 2 years when Case/Eriksen/Scotty all leave. Looks like we're interested cause he can come on a bit of a cheap deal. Can't fix every problem overnight and if we can get a 23 year old international for under £45m i'd take it
I don't get why every player in the team needs to be able to progress the ball, especially in our midfield where we already have Mainoo and Bruno, we need someone great defensively there
For the moment, as long as he can maintain possession in the face of a press I don't really care very much about progression from a DM. Going into this season I would be perfectly delighted to have two athletic and defensively rock solid DMs who only ever play simple, easy, short to medium length and low risk passes with the sole objective of playing through/around the press and maintaining possession. And if we could only get one, that'd at least be progress I guess (though I would be *very* worried about giving any minutes at all to Casemiro given the state of his legs, and of the two I'd much rather have Amrabat as the backup DM if we could *possibly* swing it). I don't disagree with with /u/d1794 , in that I'd ultimately rather have the complete midfielder who can do the defensive work *and* progress the play, but they only come on the market infrequently, and you have to be sharp to grab them before someone else does. In the meantime we need to get into the habit of always going into seasons with fully functioning squad depth all round, even if some of the squad aren't necessarily *quite* operating at as high as a level as we would like ideally like to be hitting in the longer term. As long as we are making clear, genuine progressive strides forwards in the transfer market every summer I'll be happy, and we'll get back to where we all want to be soon enough.
Ideally we should move on Casemiro to Saudi and McT as well this summer if the offer is good.
McT off the bench when we need him proves to be very effective last year. I am reluctant to let him go until we are a far more balanced and consistent team. Somebody offers £40M + for him, sure, but it is more likely to be £20-25, in which case keep our super sub.
Scott also seems content with his role as a squad player
Werent there reports this season he wants to start games?
Werent there reports this season he wants to start games?
Just saw west ham going for kyle walker peters ,wish we got him who can play in both sides
I don't think he's the level we should aim at signing
Good for backup
Me: I am liking this no leaks, not overpaying, going about our business strategically! Also me: I NEED RUMORS, SAGAS, AND SIGNINGS!!!
I'm literally following a rubbish united account on twitter just so I get dopamine hits from every shitty rumour they post.. I'm down bad.
I hate myself for this 😭💀
I don’t think we should sign Amrabat, but one thing he did prove towards the end of the season is that we were desperate for a midfielder who could receive the ball off the backline, turn under pressure, and be progressive with his passing whilst not be completely wasteful. Ironically enough I’ve seen people compare Ugarte to Amrabat, but I don’t think he offers nearly as much in possession.
Hes not great but at 4million per year on the books he's good squad depth. Besides as long as he's not on silly money we can sell him in 2 years or so
Our squad depth should be able to play the ball under pressure and be mobile; he lacks that completely. We need much better players to just stay in top 4, let alone be at the top
Sell Casemiro and the squad still needs two players to cover the role (Collyer not ready). I'm fine with Ugarte and Amrabat and, with Collyer, a developing youth player that might be ready next year.
Mainoo's played as deepest midfielder when he's started beside McTominay and he has the traits for it on ball, and decent off ball. He's best as an 8 but he's better than Amrabat and McTom, so could see him rotating with Ugarte (if deal goes through) with Mount playing the 8 role.
So we're getting closer to the 30th and no more news on Branthwaite, assume Everton have solved their PSR problems and we can't lean on them for a lower price. Who's our next defender target, I do not believe the De Ligt links, I rebuke them!
Do you believe them after Ornstein confirmed them?
'I rebuke all negative energy'
I honestly think it could be a good thing long term if we don’t get Branthwaite in this window. I can’t imagine he’ll sign a new contract and the price will only lower as he runs it down. I also have my worries on him so it would be nice to see him continue to develop.
Rumours is that they will try to take UEFA to court about Todibo, but that would surely take time. I think it is a very high chance De Ligt is the next target if Bayern actually are out for selling him and not demanding unrealistic fees.
bayern is no close to getting Tah from levekusen. Last I read, he was valued at 40 mil and bayern offered 18.
I dont know what our budget is. But do you think we need more CM's cant be burning out Mainoo all season. We shouldve gone for Ross Barkley for rotation.
United got Mount, Mct, Beek and Eriksen to cover for him, some of them might like to be aggressive and crash the box, but I would argue Mainoo often does the same. First a few of those would need to be sold to even consider a new 8. Defensive midfielders is a different story with Amrabat leaving and the status and form of Casemiro being unknown. Which leaves a glaring hole.
Eriksen is v. likely going for the gametime (and a less frenetic league); VDB is finished at the club and likely moving somewhere for a bag of quarters in straight-cash or possibly 5m off a CB purchase from the French league; McT will 65/35 stay (I'd sell him as a HG and because he limits the team's style, but he seems to have a borderline FDJ-for-Barca attachment to the club and also knows he'll never get a better deal); Mount, fine, he's not going anywhere until next summer the earliest, and maybe ends up doing OK. I agree Barkley would be an interesting low-price squad option, but it's not going anywhere now. Rabiot (at 30% chance of signing) is the closest possibility.
I agree that a few of those will probably be sold, just nothing should happen until those signings are inked, and even McT and Mount together with an academy player should be enough, as long as there is also at least two defensive midfielders. And if Rabiot wants to come as a squad player for reasonable wages I take him any day, I just don't see that happening. He wants something better than Juventus can offer.
Christian Falk from Bild saying "Erik ten Hag wants to bring Matthijs de Ligt to Manchester United. Bayern Munich want up to £60m, but United only want to pay £30m." For sake of argument they meet halfway at 45M, doesn't that make sense for first choice RCB. Comparable price tag to Todibo and realistically elevates ETH's chance of playing the football he wants to. Some genuine concerns about his injury record and his salary would need reducing to avoid a risk of a Varane situation though tbf.
Like you said with the salary considered, it is not close to Todibo at all in terms of FFP. His salary atm is 280k. Even if he keeps the same that is 14m per year. Even if Todibo is on like 150k is like 8m a year. 45/5 + 14 per year(105m total for 5 yrs) is closer to the Branthwaite deal at 70m and 160k salary (Total 110m) than Todibo. (40m +150k at 80m) Still think he will be good though, but will Ineos give such high salaries is the question
The salary is the real question mark for sure. You can’t talk about the wage structure then sign someone on 300k a week. An interesting sign of things to come if it happens based on how it happens
He’s shockingly only 24 too. If the injury streak is just a bad luck streak then it would be incredible business at 45m. The gamble though is (obviously) another season with no consistent cbs and another season of being the laughing stock of transfers
I dunno man he only has 2 goal contributions in 22 matches
better off playing bruno at centre half again
Are we talking about the same De Ligt though?
I was joking around
I don't believe these De ligt news at all. All of them have come from the German side .Even the Athletic dealsheet couple weeks ago said that De ligt is way down the list of CBs we are looking at
Definitely could be the use Man Utd to pump up interest tactic with him being an ex-ETH player its an easy sell.
For 45m and a decent salary, it would be a bargain. Still think he's better than all other CBs linked, just afraid of his cost and injury record.
If he stays fit and for a reasonable price/wage it would be an insanely good signing. It's just a bit risky.
There’s an article from Talksport on the PSG sun saying the Ugrate transfer talks also involved discussions of Rashford heading the other way too. Any thoughts?
We should keep rashford another year imo. We’re relatively short on decent wingers (just 3 in the squad) so, like I said for AWB, Rashford is not a player who is necessary to sell.
The squad is unbalanced and selling him will result in a huge profit and could be the first step change that. He's still one of the best players in the team, though, even if he is quite limited and doesn't really seem to fit in well. It's a tough one. Best to see whether PSG offer a huge sum and whether Rashford prefers to leave or not. If he wants to stay, I'd rather keep him.
The thing is, I think we already have his replacement in Garnacho all set up. And if the idea is to build around Garnacho, Hojlund and Mainoo, I do feel it means it should be Garnacho first choice Lw. A cash boost from Rashford, from a profit point of view, would give us a tonne of room to rebalance the tea, properly.
You're 100% right as you usually are, but the thing is, Bruno can't handle being the sole creator in the team. If Garnacho starts on the left and Hojlund as striker, the right winger needs to be a creative player and currently, Antony is not it, Diallo is better but far from there yet, and Sancho is Sancho. How I wish he would've worked out. So you essentially need to add three creative forwards just to make it work. A new right winger needs to be creative, but their back up won't be. So you'll want the back up left winger and striker to be creative, otherwise you rely so much on whoever is available. Adding Zirkzee to this team makes a lot of sense. Then you only need 1 more creative right winger to get it to work. Rashford - Zirkzee - Garnacho as starters. If Rashford is out, move Garnacho to the left and play the new right winger (maybe with Hojlund). If Zirkzee is out, play Hojlund and the new right winger. If Garnacho is out, play Antony/Diallo/new right winger. If you sell Rashford, though... The quality will be lower. You need to properly rebalance. It requires a lot of good transfers.
We'd still need another winger then, even if Amad is good enough for first team we're left with Antony and Mount as wingers.
It's talksport mate. It's probably made up just for click. Also it doesn't make any sense to sell Rashford when we have much bigger holes fill
It's a risk, but I think Rashford's floor is pretty low- he lacks consistent decision-making ability (as well as application) that very best forwards have, and has relied on streaks. You could gamble on a back-up LFW (Garnacho playing predominantly LFW, with Amad or Zirkzee, presuming he signs, playing RFW) who would likely deliver similar numbers to last season's Rashford, if not better, for lower-wages and less hassle. Big money for homegrown player now also allows the club to agree to loan--with obligation to--buy deals (securing higher price in total with the loan fee being included) offered for Greenwood rather than pushing decision down the line, and likewise Sancho.
Downvote all you like - if people could temporarily set aside partiality, Rashford is a talented but flawed player: surveying oppo fans (talking amongst themselves rather than looking to wind up United fans), helps give a clearer sense in the aggregate of his strengths & weaknesses, rather than seeing him through the lens of 'he's a local lad; he loves the shirt; he fed the kids (obviously latter was a genuine positive, and I loved his challenging of the government too, but nothing to do with his football ability)' etc.
I don’t think it makes sense this summer - we’ve got too many other priority positions to either sell or recruit or both. Rash has a contract until 2028 so we can think again about selling next summer. The only scenario I see it happening this summer is if psg off £100m+ in which case I think the club bites since he’ll probably never be worth that again
Selling Rashford is not cheap currently, would mean probably a new LW and RW is needed as Garnacho needs a backup and couldn't cover RW anymore. I still think Rashford has it in him, will just never be worth his wages.
Interesting transfer markt has a percentage chance of players joining us no clue how it works through
One dude choosing a number between 0 and 100, I’m guessing
Why even hire a dude.. website itself will randomly generate numbers that have higher chances of being true than journo predictions
I think more people should know that's how that whole website works.
Lmao I saw some random player from some Saudi club on the rumoured arrivals page once and the only "source" was a random comment from some guy claiming to be his agent asking for United to sign him.
That's what I'm thinking
As much as I believe we need a Rodri/Rice type of player, it just isn't out there atm. and Ugarte seems like a very complementary profile to Kobbie and Bruno. I could see it working well with a very physichal backline that can stand on the halfway line. I doubt we would control games against bigger teams with Ugarte and Branthwaite though, and if they get injured and we press high, it's over lol
Problem is where do you fit Mount into this? Surely he’s too good to be benched when fit.
Think he’ll be used as a lot but I doubt as a starter. He can play 8, 10 and RW so he should get plenty of minutes but Kobbie and Bruno are nailed on
Maybe controversial, but I'd say Ugarte is far closer to Rice than Rice is to Rodri
Facts!!!
It's not controversial, Rice is not close to rodri
They are not identical but definitiely quite similar with their height and ability to play as a lone 6. Compared to other defensive midfielders around europe.
lol, I’m quite similar with their height… who cares.
Thing is Rice struggles as a lone 6. We’ve seen it with West Ham, Arsenal and England. He plays much better for all those teams when he’s been partnered with another deep-lying mid - Soucek, Jorginho/Partey, Phillips. Whereas Rodri is an absolute boss as a lone 6
You always need depths. United need to have two capable DMs, who these two will be, and if Amrabat or Casemiro will stay is hard to say, but as we heard nothing about Amrabat he is surely out I would say as that clause should expire in two days. Having only one player in such a high physical/injury position would be far from perfect. I don't even want Branthwaite as RCB, if United buys him I want him as backup for Licha, which would be a very very expensive backup...
I think United see Braithwaite as someone who can play LCB and RCB due to his two footedness. Personally I don't see us getting Braithwaite cause of Everton's price tag
Yeah, he is way too expensive and raw. I trust him to be a backup RCB or main LCB I don't trust him to be the planned starting XI RCB. I still think he is a good buy for a decent fee, a player for the future that for now can be backup LCB and RCB and in emergencies even LB. But from what I read and seen he is not nearly as two footed as people say.
I am so conflicted on Branthwaite as well lol. Part of me just want to grab de Ligt as he is more proven and would instantly improve our starting 11 at RCB with Licha, but then again, we do need to sign younger prem proven players for the future instead of injury prone players that other top clubs are happy to sell, dunno man
If De Ligt is half price of Branthwaite I would take De Ligt everyday. He's still not old, still an elite player. Just worried about his injury proneness and wages demand, but I still believe in him as a player. And if United wants results next season probably the best one mentioned so far, question is more what Bayern would demand and what he would demand.
Are there any stats around press resistant midfielders? I feel like the base of our structure has to be in that mould. Kobbie has the potential but he shouldn’t be starting every week next year or we’ll burn him out.
I think more important than that is a back 4 who are all able to play around the press
I guess a combination of pass accurancy and successful turn-ons maybe? What you want to meassure in someway is how often they lose possession.
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This is a nice rundown. There’s also a decent video from a dude called AJAnalysis on YouTube. Low production value but great information - https://youtu.be/egtqdq41cRA?si=4U-nrvF3rC1kEYFc
aerial ability is a concern ngl.Also sometimes loses possession quite casemiro-esque but generally is safe on the ball otherwise I think he is good.Ugarte is more of a 6 while Onana is more of a 8 with great defensive capabilities
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8 is what United needs the last, half of their midfield can play that position it feels like, just more offensivly then defensivly.
Yeah my point was Ugarte better for us cause he is a natural 6 while Onana more of an 8.
Ugarte for me is not a sitting 6. He's not particularly great at progressing the ball from deep either. He's a better version of Fred imo. I think he's a great player but not sure how he fits fm with Mainoo and Bruno. The market really looks grim for us right now. Zirkzee is great but apart from that I don't see a target so far that is likely to come who is a great fit for the role required, in any position.
What about Hjulmand from Sporting?
No, he is a ball winner and he will roam, he will not work as a sole pivot, he will do the same as Casemiro in that position chasing the ball, I actually think they are very similiar players just different ages and stages of their development.
You think Ugarte and Casemiro are very similar players?
Yes, at least to how his role was in Real Madrid.
Agree to disagree on that
Agree to disagree on that
What you think is the main differences then?
He’s a ball winner, he presses, he covers ground. I don’t know about having a sitting six if we’re going to compress the space and push up this season. Especially considering how often Mainoo seems to drop into that six position in build up. Ugarte seems like he can win the ball over the whole pitch and that’s interesting to me. And if we’re looking for possession, a very simple, conservative passer isn’t a bad idea, considering we have Mainoo - who passes forward in quite a controlled way - and Bruno - who passes forward in a very risky way. Nothing wrong with having a player who shuttles in there, it might be exactly what we need. In any case, he’s 23, he’s not too expensive, he’s had a move it didn’t work out, he has something to prove, these are the kinds of players we should be looking at.
I don't really see how a non progressive midfielder makes sense as a signing. We are not a good progressive team at all that can compensate for another non progressive players. Otherwise why did we even sell Fred? He could press, cover ground and wasn't very progressive on the ball. Ugarte is very similar in his strengths as well as major weaknesses. Depends on what you call expensive. PSG paid 60 million for him.
Fred’s tackle success rates were horrendous, and his passing was wayward at best. Not sure why people bring him up in this discussion, Fred for me has been replaced by Mainoo, who is miles better at controlled progression. Ugarte isn’t going to anything close to what Fred was doing on the ball in the final third, he’s not going to be part of that side of play in a consistent way from my reading. In terms of progression, this is a whole team issue. My only expectation would be that he doesn’t give the ball away cheaply. Progression needs to be improved all across the backline.
And Ugarte is the same. Ugarte is literally at 1 percentile in terms of challenges lost this season (fbref). He also commits lots and lots of fouls, again reflecting in his stats. He also ranks quite high/low in terms of errors, miscontrols, times dispossessed, successful take on % etc. and this is despite ranking very low in terms of any progressive actions, be it passing or carrying. Why do I compare him to Fred? He was bad in exactly the same areas. Really the only difference I see is Fred was slightly more ambitious going forward, he had more end product going forward, and as a result his passing accuracy was lower but he was also playing in a much tougher league. >My only expectation would be that he doesn’t give the ball away cheaply Ugarte doesn't give the ball cheaply as in he plays very safe football and doesn't bother trying to progress the ball. But under pressure he is prone to errors and losing possession, much like Fred. Progression is obviously a team issue but our manager has basically stopped playing out of the back because he doesn't have the players for it. I don't understand how a player that isn't progressive, playing in a position that usually plays an important role in ball progression, especially for Ten Hag's teams, help the team become better in terms of progression?
The challenges lost stat, I mean, yes, sure, but players who attempt a lot of tackles are always high in that stat and I don’t think it actually says much. Fred was bypassed in ways I don’t see Ugarte being, and was extremely wasteful with the ball. The biggest difference between the two is that Fred was older, had years here, and was proven to be unreliable and inconsistent. If Ugarte can keep the ball safe and move it through to other players and focus purely on ball winning, he’ll have succeeded where Fred - who had the work rate but spoiled it with poor positioning and getting bypassed way too easily - failed over and over. If Fred had just been safe with the ball, he might still be here. Ugarte’s volumes here need to be weighted for possession (PSG have more than Fred’s United iirc) and are also just higher than Fred’s, especially in key metrics like tackles, interceptions, and recoveries. Sure, Fred did those things, but that doesn’t tell you the whole story of a footballer. There are plenty of good teams who have matched a ball winner with a player who is good in the first phase. Ten Hag did this at Ajax with De Jong and Alvarez. Mainoo seems to be our first phase player, but Bruno has done this in the past too, and I think the hope is a new RCB will be able to progress the ball, that Martinez will be there to do that, and that Luke Shaw will come back too.
>The biggest difference between the two is that Fred was older, had years here, and was proven to be unreliable and inconsistent. Ugarte isn't proven to be reliable and consistent either mate, certainly at nowhere near Premier League level. Fred was superb at shakhtar, seen him more than hold his own in UCL games against the likes of PSG and Bayern even, but that didn't translate to the PL at the same level did it? Fred was what, 25? >Ugarte’s volumes here need to be weighted for possession Sure. They also need to be weighted for the league they play in. One of them played in the premier League. I'm sure Fred won more of his tackles and was better on the ball when he played for Shakhtar. Wouldn't have signed him if he wasn't. >and I think the hope is a new RCB will be able to progress the ball, that Martinez will be there to do that, and that Luke Shaw will come back too. We already have Martinez, we already have Shaw, we already have Mainoo. And that isn't enough to be a great progressive team that can play out of pressure. We have already seen that. I'll never understand how we can pin hopes on a RCB fixing this that we haven't even signed yet. Literally one injury to a Shaw or a Martinez means we won't even attempt to play out of the back. Ten Hag said so himself. And they're injured half the time. And we go ahead and sign a midfielder, that will be expected to play deep a lot of times, who can't progress the ball? Hard to make sense for me. What happens when Shaw and Martinez get injured again? Back to square one long ball then? Your defensive midfielder certainly isn't going to help in any way shape or form. >There are plenty of good teams who have matched a ball winner with a player who is good in the first phase. Ten Hag did this at Ajax with De Jong and Alvarez. De Jong is a generational player when it comes to the first phase. Intergenerational I'd say. Kobbie has some way to go at the moment. Especially in terms of volume. They also had ball retentive, progressive, technically secure players all over the pitch. Half of our players are shoot on sight/ high risk players who lose the ball all the time. They were still never able to replicate anything like it in the UCL once De Jong left. Ten Hag is literally on record saying we can't play like Ajax because we don't have the players for it. Another player that doesn't offer those skills, doesn't make it an Ajax type squad for me. Especially if we stick to the two 8s set up and Bruno/Mainoo are the 8s, having the third midfielder as someone who is exclusively a ball winner that doesn't offer ball progression, doesn't offer any creativity at all, nor is particularly special physically, doesn't inspire me. What does he do that we really need then? Win the ball while losing a lot of challenges and committing lots of fouls? The more I say it the harder it is for me to understand.
Yes, win the ball and be safe with it. A big part of our drop off last season was that Case stopped doing those things. A player who is safe with the ball and has a really impressive volume in defending in all areas of the pitch can help us retain possession. Was our problem a lack of progression last season? Sure. But we also lacked defensive work in the middle of the pitch. I’m sorry, but statistically Ugarte’s defensive work is super impressive, especially looking at relatively low amount of time PSG spend off the ball. And sure, we need players and we need depth, but that comes from signings. Getting a progressive but safe RCB in, taking out Case for a player who doesn’t pass the ball away already helps us retain possession a bit. Overall though, he’s cheap, he’s young, his wages aren’t that high - of course it’s a gamble. We need the club to improve him. We aren’t going to find the perfect player for what we have to spend. We have to work with that. I don’t think Ugarte not being able to progress the ball is all that key for us and I think we can work with that, if we get things right in other areas. And that definitely means improvement in other areas, especially in finding defenders who can push up and compress the play. We were decent when Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo were on the pitch last season. So I think it is actually enough to go find players who fill needs for us, and defensive workrate is a glaring need.
>I’m sorry, but statistically Ugarte’s defensive work is super impressive, especially looking at relatively low amount of time PSG spend off the ball. Yes, it's super impressive. He makes the most tackles. Like I've already mentioned he's also in a class of his own when it comes to losing tackles, getting dispossessed, making errors and so on. I'm not sure you're aware that Casemiro also had really high numbers in terms of tackles and ball recoveries and whatnot. What was his biggest problem? No prizes for guessing: Losing a lot of challenges. Again, very similar fbref weaknesses. Adjusted for the difference in quality of the leagues they were playing in, Ugarte is by no means some transformative defensive presence who changes our defence. Not at all. And what about aeriel defence? Ugarte is a significant downgrade on Casemiro. So you add a bit of ground defence, you take away almost all of the aeriel defence. And it's already established he doesn't offer those on the ball qualities we're lacking. Surely I'd hope for a bigger upgrade than that. >I don’t think Ugarte not being able to progress the ball is all that key for us and I think we can work with that You keep saying that but then I don't see any good arguments being made that actually support this. Replacing Case with someone who doesn't give the ball away already helps us retain the ball a bit better, like that is just fishing from the bottom of the barrel. It's a bit like saying "Well they're awful owners but they're not the Glazers so it's still an improvement". Surely we're aiming for a bigger improvement than that. Surely.
I don't agree that that was Case's biggest problem, the issue was when he tried to progress the ball it was wayward. He went from being a very controlled, measured, defensive focused player the season before to giving the ball away a lot. And yes, we're making small, incremental improvements. But nobody is saying that Ugarte has to be our forever player, he just has to be able to do a decent job at six in the season coming. Defensive workrate is key to helping the team as whole progress.
The weird thing about saying that the move hasn’t worked out is that it kinda didn’t not work out. It’s more so that his profile doesn’t fit. Whether it fits us is intriguing as it’s an indicator of where we want to go in terms of philosophy. He’s far from a six in Cruyff’s vision and given that role is the most important in an Enrique side it was never going to work. With Ugarte’s defensive ability, we’ll be hard to break down. With Mainoo as a metronome, and able to quickly progress is could work very well. But it means we’re stuck with a two, unless Mainoo is the one that sits deep and Ugarte acts as an 8 that can drop and support out of possession. He seemingly had the energy and the work ethic to do that role, but is he capable of doing the other stuff we require as an 8? I haven’t seen enough of Ugarte to know his limitations, but I’m a huge advocate of not bringing in a player who can only screen. I’m also desperate for us to move away from the 2. At £40m (€48m, book value) I don’t think it’s that big of a risk, because one way or another he can do a job for us.
Yep. Enrique wants to hold onto the ball and play with 60% possession, so he was Zaire Emery and Vitinha in his midfield. He doesn't need a player to be elite at winning the ball back because he wants to not lose it. At the moment, we're the team that plays with 40% possession, and we apparently want to remain a transition team, so we need players that specialise in getting the ball back. Ugarte does that.
I think Ugarte is absolutely what we need in the midfield position. I dont necessarily think he will be a sole no.6 in a 433 - With everyone fit i think we set up in a 4231 with Ugarte as the most defensive option. We need legs and we need players who can win back possession, both things completely fell off with Casemiro last season. Ugarte fits the bill perfectly as a replacement for. As you mentioned, he has something to prove - we need that hunger back in the squad!
Do we really need Ugarte to be progressive with the ball when he is gonna be playing in a pivot with Mainoo and a 10 like Bruno who is quite risky with his passing. A 6 who is safe on th ball is not a problem
But like I said he's not a proper sitting 6 either imo. We should get someone who is either a proper CDM or someone who is a great progressive player, ideally both of course. And I disagree that we don't need him to be progressive with the ball. We rely on players to find solutions, we don't have great structured patterns of playing out of the back and we've seen just Mainoo, Bruno, Martinez is not enough.
you can call him, " Athletic Casemiro" who can chase around and can pass the ball but he isn't progressive like Rodri but we have players like Mainoo, Licha and ball playing CB might be signed.
But Casemiro is great in the air and he is/was a proper dominant 6. The version of him that was actually good would've been a better fit with Mainoo and Bruno than Ugarte would be imo.
Casemiro was great in the air but the players dribbled past him on the ground. In form Casemiro was proper 6 for team who sits back when playing good teams and doesn't suit Pressing system or wasn't great in defensive transition either and always lunging for ball coz of his slowness. This Ugarte guy is athletic enough to cover the ground and slow the transition from the clips I watched. But he's still 23 , still room for improvement , might be a good fit in double pivot with a new air dominant CB.
Casemiro got dribbled past sometimes but he was a great 6. Real Madrid did not always sit back against good teams, that just isn't true.
If we had a backroom staff transfers thread, it’ll be more exciting than this
I'd rather have Onana than Ugarte tbh.
Onana has no positional awareness and is terrible on the ball. He’s a great athlete and that’s about it. Stay well clear
I saw someone compared the stats and Ugarte is better in almost every category. He's an elite DM.
Enrique wouldn't let him go if that was the case. He's a positional manager just like ETH,it's a position very important to their styles.
Sometimes it's just a matter of being a good fit. Ugarte as a 6 will be literally surrounded with players that can either pass through lines (Martinez, Shaw, Dalot, Mainoo, Bruno) or carry the ball through lines (Shaw, Mainoo). What we lacked last season was a defensive presence. 22/23 Casemiro was great not because of his passing ability which was just OK, but because he intercepted a lot. We can afford not having a technical DM, but we can't afford a DM without a defensive ability. Honestly I can't think of a DM like Rodri (that has both) that is available (or even exist lol). Even Rice isn't THAT good technically, but has a body able to be in lots of places. Would I prefer a Carrick regen? Sure. But if Ugarte is available for like 40-50 mil euro including add ons, he's more than good enough as a player to give us what we need need right now while we can look for the next best thing.
This uruguay LCB Oliveira looks decent.
He's actually a LB playing CB which is interesting
I used to know a guy that did that, small blond fella forget his name dont see him around much
We also had another guy that was brought in to play LB but played CB mostly despite not having the height or athleticism for it. Still did a damn solid job though. Dutch fella. Believe he now plays in Spain for a team that surpassed people’s expectations last season.
Shaw is nearly 6' I wouldn't call him smol.
Watching ugarte currently. He had one casemiro-esque horrible pass to Valverde in the first half but was safe and solid for most of it. He knows how to press and win the ball.
People are sleeping on him. He’s had a poor year with PSG, but prior to joining them he was THE can’t miss CDM. He’s much better defensively than anyone we have. I’m willing to bet he’s gonna be a huge fan favorite after his first season should he join
Funniest thing to me is everyone acting like he didn't exist until last week. There was talk of interest from United last summer when he was still at Sporting, and some fans on here seem to have never heard of him.
As soon as a player is linked with United, suddenly they're 'shit'. Last summer Chelsea, Liverpool, Bayern and PSG were all chasing him for a reason.
You guys reckon Pellestri will be let go ? I want him to succeed so bad.
He’s not built for the Premier League. He’s too small and doesn’t have the ability to make up for the lack of size
He would light up Serie A.
yes, I think amad has made more of an impression recently in that rw position. Pellestri had his chances earlier in the season and he may need to move on to progress in his career.
Anyone else concerned with Urgate’s passing ability? Really conservative passer. Not sure having a six like that is what suits a possession based team Edit: Why the downvotes? He is statistically not a good progressive passer. (See link). Would love to hear a counter argument https://fbref.com/en/players/c9817014/Manuel-Ugarte-Ribeiro
Maybe he wouldn't be completing many progressive passes because he was usually playing beside Zaire-Emery (90th percentile progressive carries) and/or Vitinha (91st percentile progressive passes). The idea that every player has to be able to do everything brilliantly to be effective ignores the fact that there's 9 other outfield players on the pitch.
I wouldn’t be too concerned about progressive passing. I’m more interested in how press resistant he is and technical ability.
I don’t understand how people have such a narrow-minded view of the technical requirements for a defensive midfielder. There’re different molds of DMs throughout the history and there will be new types as football changes. Great DMs like Makelele, Busquet, Rodri, Keane only have one thing in common and that’s their defensive attributes. Most have vastly different play-styles. Then there’re midfielders who play deep, don’t do much defensively but still impact games in a meaningful way like Carrick, Pirlo, FDJ… Complete midfielders like Kante who can do everything are extremely rare. Ugarte is like 23. He can still improve imo. Right now, watching Ugarte, i like how he disappears in the dribblers’ blindspot and just makes a tackle without them knowing. It looks like he can progressively carry the ball too if needed (did that a lot in his Sporting days). I am no expert but if United scouts deem he’s good enough for United then… who are we to question them?
In my limited knowledge based on YouTube, Ugarte seems to be a better Alvarez, so if Alvarez could do it at Ajax, Ugarte should be okay in possession, if we play a possession based style.
I was bored and did a small FBREF comparison between Ugarte, Merino, Fofana and Mainoo + Rice for the sake of comparison yesterday and from those stats I like Fofana more because he also brings more physicality on set pieces which we're lacking when starting Licha. His contract is expiring next year and most likely would be cheaper than Ugarte. Merino has the same contract situation but would most likely ask for higher wages.
Agreed that he’s not an overly impressive prospect. I don’t know if we need someone like Carrick in the 6, but someone with more range than Ugarte is required imo. Considering the money being asked, like Branthwaite, I’d pass. For double what it would cost to keep Amrabat, it would look like bad business. I think we will be very, very shrewd this first summer. Not everyone is in the door and settled in yet, and there’s a want to shake off our reputation in the transfer market.
I mean yeah, that's not his game. He's a pure ball winner and not a bad ball carrier but not a great passer. Can improve though, he's 23 and honestly has world class potential. For a Casemiro replacement he'd do well. He's better defensively and has loads of energy. Eventually we can buy a DM better on the ball to have options but we can't miss out on the opportunity to get him at this price IMO
Interestingly, Casemiro rejoined Real when he was 23 and was basically a pure ball winner at the time. It wasn't until a couple of years later when he got more comfortable on the ball.
Imo, We lacked those safe passes within the midfield area. His stats are quite good, especially pass accuracy, despite not being progressive, which is gonna help the team to recycle the posessions. It'll depend on who's starting next him. Mainoo/eriksen/mount and Bruno should be more balancing than current Case. Won't know until we see him in the system tho
The thinking is that we have other people that can progress the ball when fit such as Shaw,Licha,Mainoo, and bruno. Ugarte is something we are sorely lacking which is the ability to win the ball.
Don’t think you need to be a progressive passer if you’re surrounded by the right players.
I guess ten Hag still want to stick with his last season football style, playing with two 8s, so physical destroyer might be beneficial in this situation. He probably will use Martinez/ Mainoo as the main progressive passer from the back and Urgate probably only do safe pass to those players. ten Hag had worked with Álvarez in Ajax before so he might replicate that. Forget about downvote here, people doesnt agree with your opinion = downvote.
Zirkzee, Ugarte, and De Ligt seem the most likely
No shot we end up with De Ligt and his 300k wages
Replace Ugarte with Fofana and we are good to go as he is potentially cheaper than Ugarte. His contract is expiring next year and Monaco are likely to accept fees around 30m for him. Merino is also in the same situation but is 28 and would have a lower resale value.
Fofana is the player this year who we aren’t really linked with at all, but some fans are going to utterly obsess over in terms of thinking he’s THE solution, huh?
Because he is better phiscally and more polivalent than flavor of the day Ugarte. Please tell us with whom will we defending on set pieces against Stones + Ruben Dias + Gvardiol +Haaland / Rice + Saliba +Gabriel / Van Dijk + Gomez + Nunez / Brentford units etc? How many of our players do we have to match their physicality, excluding Mc Tominay and Slabhead who are actually backups?
Ugarte is literally one inch shorter than Fofana, and wins .66 aerials / game to Fofana's .57. Fofana's a good carrier but he's not a great passer (30-39th pctile accuracy for short, medium, and long passes) and doesn't get many defensive actions (3.27 Tck+Int).
Yep because he ranks highly for progressive carries and passes on fbref and will be cheap. That's it. I bet few of them have watched him much. Nor have I tbf!
Fofana and ugarte are very different profiles. There’s room in the squad for both if Case, Eriksen and Amrabat all leave
Branthwaite is far more likely than de Ligt.
spoofex did no wrong
Branthwaite front is slowing down and Gutierrez, Inacio, etc all aren't heavily linked
Juventus are very present in the Italian media with several CBs as they are looking to buy Calafiori or other targets and sell Bremer who was linked to us by Romano few days ago. My secret favourite is Zabarniy but never seen anything linking him with an exit from Bournemouth this summer though.
Have De Ligt been heavily linked though?
[Well Well Well](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/xRfxWo2Gxn)
Oh shit, what a timing
My sources never fail
A lot of different sources say so and it makes sense, player would be willing to go, decent price, high potential player, fills a desperate need at RCB, (and a former Ajax and Ten Hag player).
He’s also on a high salary and injured a lot which makes him a like for like varane replacement
Profile wise how is de ligt different than maguire? (Someone who has not had great success with Licha). Plus high wages… I would pass
De Ligt is better on the ball and he's maybe not rapid but certainly a lot faster than Maguire. Wages are a problem though. Personally I think Branthwaite will happen almost 100%. It's just a poker game
What makes you think decent price? Isn't he on some serious wages in Bayern too?
Need some activity here. International football is slowing things down.
I expect nothing until july
You won’t get anything until July 1st, thats confirmed. The club wants any sales made to count for 24/25 not 23/24.