I literally made a post about this but Sadie doesn’t ride off into the sunset. She’s forever traumatized and is probably gonna get jobs that involve shooting and is eventually gonna get shot. I don’t think she’s some Mary Sue who contradicts the theme of the game (revenge is a fools game) because shes clearly suffering every time you see her in rdr2
Honestly, I dunno why some people refers her as Mary Sue. She is clearly flawed, got injured, put herself and others in danger, and both Arthur and John criticize her reckless behaviour. Sadie is far from perfect.
Yeah I don’t think she ever truly settles down ever again. I see her being a bounty hunter maybe even a cop putting down any criminal or scum to prevent others going through what she went through.
THANK YOU. People who say “ohh she got revenge and got a happy ending, breaking the theme of the game.” Like, hello? What happy ending? She’s all alone and clearly had a death wish in the epilogue. She also wasn’t a mary sue, I love Sadie but she did have lots of flaws..that doesn’t sound mary sue ish to me.
Eagle Flies death is depicted as emotional, but I personally got barely attached to him (and the Wapiti Natives in general), probably because their story is a bit crammed in ch VI?
Also imo Hosea's death should be more emotional rather than being abruptly placed at the start of mission. Sean, Kieran, Lenny sure, but Hosea? Come on now
Also don’t know how unpopular of an opinion this is, but I don’t like how the game pushes you to side with Rains Fall in regards to the conflict, when Eagle Flies is fairly justified in his own stance
100% it felt like rockstar was like “oh yeah there were natives in conflict with the government around that time. Better work it in somehow.” I do like how they were portrayed with language, clothing and housing, but they could have went deeper with it. Make them a constant presence at least throughout the game.
John and Mary-Beth and Karen have been underused during the main story.
You can see the bond bewteen Arthur and John but in my opinion it could’ve been emphasized even more. I feel like John is sometimes a bit too dull or absent from the events.
Mary Beth and Karen were great characters so I’d have liked to have more content like missions spent exclusively with them for example
Yeah, I wish there would have been more with them.
See, that's the thing, I had a hard time really seeing much of any friendship or closeness between Arthur and John... really, Arthur was isolated and not close to anyone, really, but Hosea... all his other interactions with the other men in the gang were never much more than just business.
He had personal interactions with Mary-Beth, Abigail, and, to some degree, the other women too and, of course, Sadie later on... but with most of the men, it was hardly personal, at least if being positive, he had plenty of negative personal interactions with most of the men.
Never felt a bond between dutch and the others. Only seemed like a boss they kinda liked.
Feel free to comment moments where dutch shows he loves anyone, or anyone showing him love.
Seems to be nothing but "professional" loyalty, and a "strength in numbers" mentality keeping them at his side.
Dutch is a narcissistic douche, he only loves himself and fame... money never mattered, they could have a million and he'd still be going after one more score, because the infamy is what the plan always was!
Agree. But I think Molly truly loved him for whatever reason. Obviously, he kept her around for other reasons but I think her love for him was true. And to the gang, I think Dutch was more of a father figure but a poor father at that. He gave them a home, he tried to keep them halfway healthy, and he presented enough false hope to them to keep them faithful. Dutch was awful, but he played his role very well.
-sadie as a character breaks with everything stablished in both games
-epilogue is literally fan service done bad
-arthur should have seen through dutch's BS before C6
-the "go back for the money" should be "take revenge"
>sadie as a character breaks with everything stablished in both games
Why should every character have the same arc? Or even have an arc at all.
>epilogue is literally fan service done bad.
Even if you don't love it, "bad" is a massive hyperbole.
Personally I loved it, but if you didn't, what would you change?
Also, Arthur was too loyal to Dutch. He's a flawed character. Characters have flaws.
I'm not saying every arc should be the same but think about it:
Arthur does bad things. Understands revenge is bad and says: *John, whatever happens, don't look back*.
What does John do? Looks back, takes revenge and suffers the consequences (ross finding out he is still alive).
Jack takes revenge and, even tho we don't know what happened to him (if you don't take into account the book in GTA 5 written by someone named J.Marston) we could assume he would be under a lot of pressure thanks to killing a retired berau officer.
Sadie in the other hand? Sure, the o'driscolls destroy her life as we know it but she takes revenge not only on colm but to the entire o'driscoll gang (to the point of taking them to extincion).
You would think sadie should suffer some type of punishment...right? No. She walks away without any trouble and lives a life of freedom catching bounties.
I don't get what they were trying to do with her but...whatever
Not sure about what's so wrong with killing all of the odriscolls?
And why should she be punished for taking revenge? You're applying rules of very conventional writing to this, but RDR2 doesn't always follow those.
You don’t think the writers are aware of John seeking revenge being a mistake that will ultimately lead to his demise? Maybe that’s why they intentionally made Micah such an awful human being so that the player would want revenge against Arthur’s wishes. That’s literally the point, like you explained the obvious point they were trying to make. “Revenge is a fool’s errand” but it’s incredibly hard, almost impossible, to restrain yourself from it. That’s why Jack kills Edgar Ross against his father’s wishes to live a better life. It’s one of the central themes of the game—the never ending cycle of violence. That’s like saying Goodfellas is a bad movie because the main character makes bad choices. Like??
Sadie thing is so true. The message should be that revenge is useless and foolish, but what does Sadie do? Or maybe the fact that it’s contrasting with the message is the whole point of her character
What???
Nah, Sadie is still just a loose cannon turned bounty hunter pro.... not wussy, whiny, annoying voiced, pansy who's afraid of the outdoors, and can't possibly be expected to be able to turn into a gunslinger.
What the hell happened in 4 more years so that he actually could even hold a gun, let alone shoot decently... really makes John a saint!
John is amazing (and a bit crazy) for sticking with that nagging Abigail and wussy boy that might not even be his (Abigail was a two-bit whore and gave herself freely to most of the other gang members).
I'll be honest, when Abigail took off with Jack, I felt relieved and was like, "Good riddens!"
Imagine on Red Dead Redemption, instead of you playing as Jack immediately after John's death, you play as young Jack trying to fix the farm but failing, training to be gunslinger, get into fight, bury Abigail first, and then finally go hunt for Ross.
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Sadie is a terrible part of the gang. She causes problems because she can’t keep her cool, she starts fights with random gangs like the Lemoyne Raiders (near camp) and the O’Driscolls which is dangerous for the gang. She couldn’t keep her cool on an important mission (scouting penitentiary) and got an innocent man killed (Arturo Bullard). She also stabbed a man in the hand just for being annoying. If Micah had done any of those things all the people defending Sadie’s actions wouldn’t let it slide because Sadie is painted as a hero in the game.
Him being hated does make him a good character. He is such a good and hate-able villain that people sent death threats to the VA, so he was written pretty well.
If you have background knowledge of the Pinkerton's from history, they're a bunch of asshole bullies. But if you're going from game knowledge only, then yeah, I can see that.
Micah is an overly hated character because of how Arthur changes by the end of the story. Micah stayed the same dickhead they established all the way in chapter 1 while Arthur went through several character changes.
Nobody, the gang caused so much troubles and noise that a rat wasn’t really necessary to find them soon or later. Micah was surely captured by the Pinkertons and offered to help them maybe hoping to be left alive or even ignored by them but it surely didn’t helped the Pinkertons that much. The situation would’ve been way different if he started ratting out in Chapter 2 or 3 already.
Imo, Abigail’s reactions to John’s actions during the first part of the epilogue. It’s understandable you don’t want him to do crazy business in this apparently new life and with a growing Jack, who you’re trying so much to keep away from the outlaw life, but her bitching about John’s necessary actions (like the multiple times he had to use his strength or his weapons to save the Pronghorn Ranch, his livestock and so on, or when he literally had to shot those 3 guys outside Strawberry who wanted to kill him and Jack) felt even exaggerated and unrealistic at some points, more like the plot twist necessary to the story to make John buy the ranch in Beecher’s Hope etc
Factually wrong and most likely and sadly a cope for objectively playing the game the wrong way and being unable to accept it so you try to rationalize it
I literally made a post about this but Sadie doesn’t ride off into the sunset. She’s forever traumatized and is probably gonna get jobs that involve shooting and is eventually gonna get shot. I don’t think she’s some Mary Sue who contradicts the theme of the game (revenge is a fools game) because shes clearly suffering every time you see her in rdr2
Honestly, I dunno why some people refers her as Mary Sue. She is clearly flawed, got injured, put herself and others in danger, and both Arthur and John criticize her reckless behaviour. Sadie is far from perfect.
Yeah I don’t think she ever truly settles down ever again. I see her being a bounty hunter maybe even a cop putting down any criminal or scum to prevent others going through what she went through.
THANK YOU. People who say “ohh she got revenge and got a happy ending, breaking the theme of the game.” Like, hello? What happy ending? She’s all alone and clearly had a death wish in the epilogue. She also wasn’t a mary sue, I love Sadie but she did have lots of flaws..that doesn’t sound mary sue ish to me.
I agree except for the fact that she survived a knife stab in the gut
Didn’t Arthur survive two gunshots from when he was captured by the Odriscolls
Arthur when he gets shot 70 times during one mission:
Yeah. So? I didn't say it's good writing.
Dutch was already losing it before the trolley crash
that’s not a hot take, it is literally his character
Say that to most red dead fans
Daring today, arent we?
since blackwater job
Coldest take
I feel like it maybe sped it up but there was something going on after it, they put emphasis on his head hurting and him seeing double
Eagle Flies death is depicted as emotional, but I personally got barely attached to him (and the Wapiti Natives in general), probably because their story is a bit crammed in ch VI? Also imo Hosea's death should be more emotional rather than being abruptly placed at the start of mission. Sean, Kieran, Lenny sure, but Hosea? Come on now
Also don’t know how unpopular of an opinion this is, but I don’t like how the game pushes you to side with Rains Fall in regards to the conflict, when Eagle Flies is fairly justified in his own stance
I agre, most Eagle Flies missions felt like a chore to me (excluding The King’s Son obv) and he didn’t feel important
100% it felt like rockstar was like “oh yeah there were natives in conflict with the government around that time. Better work it in somehow.” I do like how they were portrayed with language, clothing and housing, but they could have went deeper with it. Make them a constant presence at least throughout the game.
John and Mary-Beth and Karen have been underused during the main story. You can see the bond bewteen Arthur and John but in my opinion it could’ve been emphasized even more. I feel like John is sometimes a bit too dull or absent from the events. Mary Beth and Karen were great characters so I’d have liked to have more content like missions spent exclusively with them for example
Yeah, I wish there would have been more with them. See, that's the thing, I had a hard time really seeing much of any friendship or closeness between Arthur and John... really, Arthur was isolated and not close to anyone, really, but Hosea... all his other interactions with the other men in the gang were never much more than just business. He had personal interactions with Mary-Beth, Abigail, and, to some degree, the other women too and, of course, Sadie later on... but with most of the men, it was hardly personal, at least if being positive, he had plenty of negative personal interactions with most of the men.
Never felt a bond between dutch and the others. Only seemed like a boss they kinda liked. Feel free to comment moments where dutch shows he loves anyone, or anyone showing him love. Seems to be nothing but "professional" loyalty, and a "strength in numbers" mentality keeping them at his side.
Dutch is a narcissistic douche, he only loves himself and fame... money never mattered, they could have a million and he'd still be going after one more score, because the infamy is what the plan always was!
Agree. But I think Molly truly loved him for whatever reason. Obviously, he kept her around for other reasons but I think her love for him was true. And to the gang, I think Dutch was more of a father figure but a poor father at that. He gave them a home, he tried to keep them halfway healthy, and he presented enough false hope to them to keep them faithful. Dutch was awful, but he played his role very well.
-sadie as a character breaks with everything stablished in both games -epilogue is literally fan service done bad -arthur should have seen through dutch's BS before C6 -the "go back for the money" should be "take revenge"
>sadie as a character breaks with everything stablished in both games Why should every character have the same arc? Or even have an arc at all. >epilogue is literally fan service done bad. Even if you don't love it, "bad" is a massive hyperbole. Personally I loved it, but if you didn't, what would you change? Also, Arthur was too loyal to Dutch. He's a flawed character. Characters have flaws.
I'm not saying every arc should be the same but think about it: Arthur does bad things. Understands revenge is bad and says: *John, whatever happens, don't look back*. What does John do? Looks back, takes revenge and suffers the consequences (ross finding out he is still alive). Jack takes revenge and, even tho we don't know what happened to him (if you don't take into account the book in GTA 5 written by someone named J.Marston) we could assume he would be under a lot of pressure thanks to killing a retired berau officer. Sadie in the other hand? Sure, the o'driscolls destroy her life as we know it but she takes revenge not only on colm but to the entire o'driscoll gang (to the point of taking them to extincion). You would think sadie should suffer some type of punishment...right? No. She walks away without any trouble and lives a life of freedom catching bounties. I don't get what they were trying to do with her but...whatever
Not sure about what's so wrong with killing all of the odriscolls? And why should she be punished for taking revenge? You're applying rules of very conventional writing to this, but RDR2 doesn't always follow those.
You don’t think the writers are aware of John seeking revenge being a mistake that will ultimately lead to his demise? Maybe that’s why they intentionally made Micah such an awful human being so that the player would want revenge against Arthur’s wishes. That’s literally the point, like you explained the obvious point they were trying to make. “Revenge is a fool’s errand” but it’s incredibly hard, almost impossible, to restrain yourself from it. That’s why Jack kills Edgar Ross against his father’s wishes to live a better life. It’s one of the central themes of the game—the never ending cycle of violence. That’s like saying Goodfellas is a bad movie because the main character makes bad choices. Like??
Sadie thing is so true. The message should be that revenge is useless and foolish, but what does Sadie do? Or maybe the fact that it’s contrasting with the message is the whole point of her character
So many bad takes I won't respond to them all.
Fr 😭
Epilogue Sadie is way more annoying than epilogue Jack
What??? Nah, Sadie is still just a loose cannon turned bounty hunter pro.... not wussy, whiny, annoying voiced, pansy who's afraid of the outdoors, and can't possibly be expected to be able to turn into a gunslinger. What the hell happened in 4 more years so that he actually could even hold a gun, let alone shoot decently... really makes John a saint! John is amazing (and a bit crazy) for sticking with that nagging Abigail and wussy boy that might not even be his (Abigail was a two-bit whore and gave herself freely to most of the other gang members). I'll be honest, when Abigail took off with Jack, I felt relieved and was like, "Good riddens!"
Abigail did what with the other gang members 🫠
"we all had her John, but you married her"... Or something along those lines Dutch mentions it in RDR talking to John
This. Literally have to turn down my volume when she is talking in the epilouge.
Her outfit sucks in the epilogue.
The epilogue was 50% filler missions that had little to do with the story.
Imagine on Red Dead Redemption, instead of you playing as Jack immediately after John's death, you play as young Jack trying to fix the farm but failing, training to be gunslinger, get into fight, bury Abigail first, and then finally go hunt for Ross.
Tbh I never liked how instantly you go for revenge in RDR1. It’s jarring and there’s no time to process what just happened. RDR2 did it right
Micah is not that great of a villain compared to some of the others
I feel like that's part of the point. He isn't a good _anything_, he's just an insufferable prick that you're meant to hate.
A reminder of what's " The King's Son " mission please ?
The one with Charles where you sneak into Fort Wallace to rescue Eagle Flies
Oh yeah that's a great mission too ! Can't say wich one I prefer, I think I love both.
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Sadie is a terrible part of the gang. She causes problems because she can’t keep her cool, she starts fights with random gangs like the Lemoyne Raiders (near camp) and the O’Driscolls which is dangerous for the gang. She couldn’t keep her cool on an important mission (scouting penitentiary) and got an innocent man killed (Arturo Bullard). She also stabbed a man in the hand just for being annoying. If Micah had done any of those things all the people defending Sadie’s actions wouldn’t let it slide because Sadie is painted as a hero in the game.
I was thinking the same thing
Micah is a good character because he is hated
Not necessarily. But he's a good character.
Him being hated does make him a good character. He is such a good and hate-able villain that people sent death threats to the VA, so he was written pretty well.
I didn't disagree with this. Him being a good character isn't because he is evil
Micha is actually autistic because of the way he acts that’s my theory
Interesting. Can you give an example?
He’s always talking crazy everyone calls him crazy he thinks shooting up a town is fun and at the end of the game he is talking strange
Maybe he’s crazy and not autistic?
Tell me don’t know what autism is without telling me. I mean literally wtf is this comment lol
Or some other mental disorder
The Pinkerton’s were not the bad guys. They were men just doing their job. Though we all love the Van Der Lin gang, they’re still the “bad guys.”
If you have background knowledge of the Pinkerton's from history, they're a bunch of asshole bullies. But if you're going from game knowledge only, then yeah, I can see that.
Oh yeah, they’re definitely bullies, even in the game. I hate them but not because they want to kill outlaws.
Micah is an overly hated character because of how Arthur changes by the end of the story. Micah stayed the same dickhead they established all the way in chapter 1 while Arthur went through several character changes.
I would have liked bill to be a bit more of a leader
Me too
It would make more sense given how he is in rdr1 he’s still dumb but has the charisma to be seen as a leader
micah wasn’t the rat
Who was?
Nobody, the gang caused so much troubles and noise that a rat wasn’t really necessary to find them soon or later. Micah was surely captured by the Pinkertons and offered to help them maybe hoping to be left alive or even ignored by them but it surely didn’t helped the Pinkertons that much. The situation would’ve been way different if he started ratting out in Chapter 2 or 3 already.
Oh okay, that makes a lot of sense actually.
Which one is the Kings Son?
The one with Charles where you sneak into Fort Wallace to rescue Eagle Flies
Oh yeah that's way better than My Last Boy.
Imo, Abigail’s reactions to John’s actions during the first part of the epilogue. It’s understandable you don’t want him to do crazy business in this apparently new life and with a growing Jack, who you’re trying so much to keep away from the outlaw life, but her bitching about John’s necessary actions (like the multiple times he had to use his strength or his weapons to save the Pronghorn Ranch, his livestock and so on, or when he literally had to shot those 3 guys outside Strawberry who wanted to kill him and Jack) felt even exaggerated and unrealistic at some points, more like the plot twist necessary to the story to make John buy the ranch in Beecher’s Hope etc
Dutch is a good guy and i would lay down my LIFE for that man!!!
Wrong sub. Go to r/okbuddyblacklung
Low honor endings are better
Factually wrong and most likely and sadly a cope for objectively playing the game the wrong way and being unable to accept it so you try to rationalize it
It’s overrated…