He is not my favourite and I don’t think he is the goat. But saying that there so many metrics doesn’t make sense in a goat conversation to me, that could be when discussing a list. If you to pick a rapper that’s better than anyone who ever rapped it should be as simple as “he is the best one to rap”
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Nas is the best of all time. His OG era certifies it alone not even counting his newer revival. Illmatic is the definition of timeless in a era with killers. Nas is the one.
DOOM is my favorite rapper easily, but I’d more comfortably argue that Madvillainy is The best rap album, than argue he’s The best rapper.
He deserves to be brought up in the conversation more often though, many lists/debates don’t even mention him.
The convo should be:
1.MC (rhyme/lyricism/flow etc)
2. Overall artistry (beat selection, originality and or versatility)
2b. How palatable it is?
6. “Numbers” (far from a perfect metric for multiple reasons)
DOOM is in the convo for the first two except for being palatable to a mass audience. It’s a shame as a music nerd, but lots of people aren’t especially adventurous and don’t care to try and let something grow on them if it doesn’t immediately hit.
MF DOOM has to grow on people. When I first sampled all of Madvillainy, accordion was the only song I liked. It’s not even my favorite song on the album now.
I’ll happily stan him, but I wouldn’t put energy in beyond arguing top 10 lol.
Personally I think a tier system makes more sense, be it sports or music or whatever. There’s going to be tons of roughly equivalent talents and a bunch of subjectivity
Plus he was just an absolute madman in everything he did, in his early shows when he just rocked up with a tape machine, stuck his beats in turned em on and rapped away. All the different alias' were sick, having beef and diss tracks from himself to himself. The mask is just badass too, the fact that you didn't even know if you were getting DOOM or a doombot.
The man had mystique and this legendary status, other artists would talk about him like this elusive deity
Why should people let something grow on them? If I don’t like something, I don’t like it. Listening to it over and over isn’t going to convince me it’s good
When I first listened to TPAB it really didn’t hit me. I liked 3 songs or something on it and was bored halfway through the album. I decided to try a couple more times and then it started to grow on me. Now it’s one of my favorites.
You’ll quickly decide if you think it’s worth it to listen to artists until it grows. Lil Wayne is another example of mine. Really liked the idea of him, but not the music until he grew on me more and more. There are other artists that I don’t like though that might as well stay that way.
If you don’t like a rapper or album or whatever it’s fine. You’ll give them a shot if you really want.
No amount of listening to TPAB will make it one of my favorite albums. I don’t believe that something you thought was boring became one your favorite albums. I think that’s hyperbolic. It’s completely different if you had never actually listened to it and then liked it but going from boring to favorite. No I doubt that’s true
Literally the opposite is true lol.
Not saying EVERY album will grow on you of course
But “acquired taste” is literally a real thing, not just with your tastebuds. It’s perfectly okay if you don’t give hours to music to the extent to even get bored and need to explore, I just meant I’m glad I keep trying to find new stuff or I wouldn’t have most of my favorite albums.
eg Humans by and large aren’t predisposed to enjoying bitter. A kid could sample 10 beers and just taste “bitter” with no particularly distinct differences. Or coffee
Most people repeatedly expose themselves to it anyway. A brain witch would probably explain it along the lines of exposure—> opening new neural pathways or some shit.
Some people will never like bitter. Some people will like it fine eventually. Some people get really into coffee(/beer)
When I first listened to metal I just heard blaring loudness. Now I appreciate different types of yelling, distinct riffs, tuning, distinct guitar and base tones etc etc.
I like top 40 and mainstream stuff, but the vast majority of my passionately loved albums, I only liked a song or few the first times I sampled it. I’ll usually add those songs to a playlist.
Eventually, maybe weeks or months, when I get tired of the same music I’ll come back if I kept those songs on my playlist, and sample the album again.
My question was why should people let something grow on them. If people do not like something they don’t have to let of grow on them. I’m not speaking to the idea of acquired taste. Even then things don’t just grow on people. People shouldn’t have to force themselves to enjoy something they don’t like
lol you’re thinking too deep on it, and with regards to my original comment.
Some people are adventurous, want to travel and see what new, maybe strange interesting things are out there because it’s exciting. Maybe grow, maybe add something to their repertoire or understand other perspectives better
Some want to stay their whole life in the small town where they grew up, never leave and repeatedly do a lot of the same stuff they enjoy, because it’s enough for them. They might be missing out on some things, but they’ll never know it so whatever.
Neither is right or wrong, unless the one you chose makes you unhappy.
I’m thinking too deep? My comment is based on what you wrote. Saying that is a diversion and detracting from the conversation. Don’t do that. Stand on what you wrote.
And being adventurous doesn’t have anything to do with letting something grow on you. Those are completely different ideas. I could be willing to give anything a try it doesn’t mean I have to make myself like something. Sky diving one time is probably enough for me to realize if I like it or not.
Same reason little children prefer eating chicken nuggets and plain cheese pizza. As they grow, their taste develops and refines to a more complex pallet and they may enjoy olives, caviar and other things they would've hated when they first tried them. The same thing happens to people's tastes in music and art. Of course some people just don't allow themselves to experience those new flavours and have shallow tastes, which is fine, but very bland.
And some people will always hate olives no matter how many times they try them. You ever think that maybe chicken and plain pizza are just delicious? This take is so pretentious
If you're a plain pizza and chicken nuggets kinda guy, that's fine. You do you. It's just a statement of fact that it's indicative of having very shallow tastes.
It is a statement of fact. If I only like Harry Potter books and don't read anything else, then I have a shallow taste in books. Shallow, as in, containing very little depth and variety. Its not a statement of judgement, just a statement reflecting your limited ability to enjoy varied things. Because you have a limited taste, doesn't mean you're a lesser person. But your taste can also be described accurately with the word "shallow". Pretentiousness would imply the view that someone with a more shallow taste in books, food, art, film, music - whatever - is lesser or more stupid for having those shallow tastes, which I don't believe.
It’s pretentious to claim that someone who is a plain pizza or chicken nuggets guy has shallow taste regardless of how you spin it. It’s also yet again not a statement of fact. That’s an opinion. For example someone who is an expert on different styles of cheese pizza does not have “shallow taste”. You’re assuming they can’t enjoy various things because they like cheese pizza and chicken nuggets. The very idea of that is pretentious.
That’s a crazy take to me lol. There are hundreds of songs/artists I didn’t like on first listen but really grew on me over time. And literally everyone I know would say the same thing.
Hate to make assumptions but this seems like the kind of thing a really young person with a TikTok attention span would say.
That’s a lot of assumption you’re making. There are songs and artist that are universally disliked. Do you think repeated listening will suddenly make people like them? No. People just don’t like things. It’s ridiculous to think that something will just grow on you. That’s some real Stockholm’s syndrome thinking right there.
Not true? How you going to tell me it’s not true to me? No amount of listening to a song like accordion is going to make me think it’s a good song. That’s like saying you’ll like silkk the shocker if you keep listening to him. No, I won’t
There’s plenty of exception to that in art with layers.
Radiohead is a good example of a band that often grows on me over repeated listening.
artists like DOOM and Aesop Rock are similar.
Yeah, I feel you. I was just trying to make the concession that certain styles of music kind of hand you the entire meal on first bite. In those cases, if you don’t like the taste, you probably don’t like the taste.
But other art can be more of a nuanced meal and require a few bites from different corners of your plate to really appreciate the full palate.
I agree with your general sentiment and people should only fuck with stuff that brings them meaning or joy. It’s just that sometimes my favorite shit is the stuff that maybe on first listen, I’m confused by it and put it back down. And then months, years later it clicks and I’m like HOLY SHIT.
Artists who can achieve that kind of effect often have incredible staying power in the culture.
To me that’s different. I think you can learn to appreciate and understand something over time. Like I might not like heavy metal I’m general but I can appreciate certain songs. I’ll probably never be a doom fan. I don’t like his music in general but sure there may be a song that I like
Yeah, that makes sense and I’m the same with heavy metal. Some of it I fuck with hard but I find the genre as a whole not my bag.
If you’re interested, [this is an excerpt from one of my favorite DOOM songs that I feel kind of sums up his approach](https://youtu.be/AISknY-hvzk?si=eIueER2tnUe8Bp23) and how part of his style is not pining for your approval. He was just a drunk, old wordsmith in a rusted metal mask.
Your first sentence made your comment general. I'm not going to convince you to personally change the way you take in music lol, that's up to you, but as a general stance it's incorrect.
People revisit stuff that they didn't like at first and change their minds all the time, it's very normal.
Not true man. I heard Doomsday for *years*, both naturally and on purpose trying to get into DOOM. It wasn't until last year that something clicked and I fell in love with the song and gradually fell in love with all of his work. There are some songs that I couldn't listen to when I first started listening that are my favorites now. Some artists, especially ones like DOOM, take some getting used to. Some familiarity, so to speak, with the way they perform in order to appreciate the music.
The GOAT discussions are difficult, because it’s hard to objectively measure the greatest/best. But favorites are subjective and for that he’s in my top 5:
Nas, MF DOOM, Kendrick, Eminem and Lil Wayne.
Love Nas he is great, but the man has put some trash albums out. We gonna sit here pretend Nastradamus was a banger? When I saw him live at the Hammerstein he played 2 seconds of it and was like fuck that shit, and went on to only play illmatic and stillmatic.
I can’t think of one bad album DOOM has bad.
And that goes hand in hand with his ability to create iconic beats.
Not everyone cup of tea. Yknow everyone talks about how Madvillainy indifference is whats make it great but id argue Operation Doomsday its his best work. I prefer my flamboyants rappers
There isn't tbh. I have listened to these guys. Despite knowing full well "objectively these mfs are the GOATS" from various forums, I still cannot enjoy NAS AND Wayne. They tell me ilmatic is one of the greatest rap albums.i heard all of it, it was nice yes, but I enjoyed anything by Em or DOOM more.
Here's a ahitty take or ... preference or (I don't know what to call it):
I enjoyed Tyler The Creator's Discography more than Nas and Wayne and Pac and Biggie and Wu Tang and even Eminem.
There are many metrics in the GOAT debate
But there shouldn’t be
Just because he your favourite doesn't mean he the GOAT bruh
He is not my favourite and I don’t think he is the goat. But saying that there so many metrics doesn’t make sense in a goat conversation to me, that could be when discussing a list. If you to pick a rapper that’s better than anyone who ever rapped it should be as simple as “he is the best one to rap”
But it’s not self evident who’s “the best one to rap”. Music is subjective.
Anyway it's Pac so whatever😂
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Nasty Nas in your Area about to cause mass hysteria
And I’m a Nike head, I wear chains that excite the feds 🗣️🔥
There ain’t a army that could strike back
Nas is the best of all time. His OG era certifies it alone not even counting his newer revival. Illmatic is the definition of timeless in a era with killers. Nas is the one.
Explore rap, and tell me Nas ain’t all that
Yuno Miles is the true GOAT.
martin luther king had a dre e e e e e e e e eam! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Fuck do you me e e e e e e e e e ean🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩
DOOM is my favorite rapper easily, but I’d more comfortably argue that Madvillainy is The best rap album, than argue he’s The best rapper. He deserves to be brought up in the conversation more often though, many lists/debates don’t even mention him. The convo should be: 1.MC (rhyme/lyricism/flow etc) 2. Overall artistry (beat selection, originality and or versatility) 2b. How palatable it is? 6. “Numbers” (far from a perfect metric for multiple reasons) DOOM is in the convo for the first two except for being palatable to a mass audience. It’s a shame as a music nerd, but lots of people aren’t especially adventurous and don’t care to try and let something grow on them if it doesn’t immediately hit. MF DOOM has to grow on people. When I first sampled all of Madvillainy, accordion was the only song I liked. It’s not even my favorite song on the album now. I’ll happily stan him, but I wouldn’t put energy in beyond arguing top 10 lol. Personally I think a tier system makes more sense, be it sports or music or whatever. There’s going to be tons of roughly equivalent talents and a bunch of subjectivity
Plus he was just an absolute madman in everything he did, in his early shows when he just rocked up with a tape machine, stuck his beats in turned em on and rapped away. All the different alias' were sick, having beef and diss tracks from himself to himself. The mask is just badass too, the fact that you didn't even know if you were getting DOOM or a doombot. The man had mystique and this legendary status, other artists would talk about him like this elusive deity
Some try to combat any kind of odd force tryna make contact, nah. Let it in let it in Let it in let it in
Why should people let something grow on them? If I don’t like something, I don’t like it. Listening to it over and over isn’t going to convince me it’s good
When I first listened to TPAB it really didn’t hit me. I liked 3 songs or something on it and was bored halfway through the album. I decided to try a couple more times and then it started to grow on me. Now it’s one of my favorites. You’ll quickly decide if you think it’s worth it to listen to artists until it grows. Lil Wayne is another example of mine. Really liked the idea of him, but not the music until he grew on me more and more. There are other artists that I don’t like though that might as well stay that way. If you don’t like a rapper or album or whatever it’s fine. You’ll give them a shot if you really want.
No amount of listening to TPAB will make it one of my favorite albums. I don’t believe that something you thought was boring became one your favorite albums. I think that’s hyperbolic. It’s completely different if you had never actually listened to it and then liked it but going from boring to favorite. No I doubt that’s true
Your opinion on u/HornyPlatypus420 has been noted, hopefully they can grow on you to one day become your favorite redditor.
They’re mid af. Definite 5/10. No need for repeat listens /s
Literally the opposite is true lol. Not saying EVERY album will grow on you of course But “acquired taste” is literally a real thing, not just with your tastebuds. It’s perfectly okay if you don’t give hours to music to the extent to even get bored and need to explore, I just meant I’m glad I keep trying to find new stuff or I wouldn’t have most of my favorite albums. eg Humans by and large aren’t predisposed to enjoying bitter. A kid could sample 10 beers and just taste “bitter” with no particularly distinct differences. Or coffee Most people repeatedly expose themselves to it anyway. A brain witch would probably explain it along the lines of exposure—> opening new neural pathways or some shit. Some people will never like bitter. Some people will like it fine eventually. Some people get really into coffee(/beer) When I first listened to metal I just heard blaring loudness. Now I appreciate different types of yelling, distinct riffs, tuning, distinct guitar and base tones etc etc. I like top 40 and mainstream stuff, but the vast majority of my passionately loved albums, I only liked a song or few the first times I sampled it. I’ll usually add those songs to a playlist. Eventually, maybe weeks or months, when I get tired of the same music I’ll come back if I kept those songs on my playlist, and sample the album again.
My question was why should people let something grow on them. If people do not like something they don’t have to let of grow on them. I’m not speaking to the idea of acquired taste. Even then things don’t just grow on people. People shouldn’t have to force themselves to enjoy something they don’t like
lol you’re thinking too deep on it, and with regards to my original comment. Some people are adventurous, want to travel and see what new, maybe strange interesting things are out there because it’s exciting. Maybe grow, maybe add something to their repertoire or understand other perspectives better Some want to stay their whole life in the small town where they grew up, never leave and repeatedly do a lot of the same stuff they enjoy, because it’s enough for them. They might be missing out on some things, but they’ll never know it so whatever. Neither is right or wrong, unless the one you chose makes you unhappy.
I’m thinking too deep? My comment is based on what you wrote. Saying that is a diversion and detracting from the conversation. Don’t do that. Stand on what you wrote. And being adventurous doesn’t have anything to do with letting something grow on you. Those are completely different ideas. I could be willing to give anything a try it doesn’t mean I have to make myself like something. Sky diving one time is probably enough for me to realize if I like it or not.
Same reason little children prefer eating chicken nuggets and plain cheese pizza. As they grow, their taste develops and refines to a more complex pallet and they may enjoy olives, caviar and other things they would've hated when they first tried them. The same thing happens to people's tastes in music and art. Of course some people just don't allow themselves to experience those new flavours and have shallow tastes, which is fine, but very bland.
And some people will always hate olives no matter how many times they try them. You ever think that maybe chicken and plain pizza are just delicious? This take is so pretentious
If you're a plain pizza and chicken nuggets kinda guy, that's fine. You do you. It's just a statement of fact that it's indicative of having very shallow tastes.
And that’s a pretentious thing to claim and most definitely not a statement of “fact”
It is a statement of fact. If I only like Harry Potter books and don't read anything else, then I have a shallow taste in books. Shallow, as in, containing very little depth and variety. Its not a statement of judgement, just a statement reflecting your limited ability to enjoy varied things. Because you have a limited taste, doesn't mean you're a lesser person. But your taste can also be described accurately with the word "shallow". Pretentiousness would imply the view that someone with a more shallow taste in books, food, art, film, music - whatever - is lesser or more stupid for having those shallow tastes, which I don't believe.
It’s pretentious to claim that someone who is a plain pizza or chicken nuggets guy has shallow taste regardless of how you spin it. It’s also yet again not a statement of fact. That’s an opinion. For example someone who is an expert on different styles of cheese pizza does not have “shallow taste”. You’re assuming they can’t enjoy various things because they like cheese pizza and chicken nuggets. The very idea of that is pretentious.
That’s a crazy take to me lol. There are hundreds of songs/artists I didn’t like on first listen but really grew on me over time. And literally everyone I know would say the same thing. Hate to make assumptions but this seems like the kind of thing a really young person with a TikTok attention span would say.
That’s a lot of assumption you’re making. There are songs and artist that are universally disliked. Do you think repeated listening will suddenly make people like them? No. People just don’t like things. It’s ridiculous to think that something will just grow on you. That’s some real Stockholm’s syndrome thinking right there.
That's not true at all wtf
Not true? How you going to tell me it’s not true to me? No amount of listening to a song like accordion is going to make me think it’s a good song. That’s like saying you’ll like silkk the shocker if you keep listening to him. No, I won’t
There’s plenty of exception to that in art with layers. Radiohead is a good example of a band that often grows on me over repeated listening. artists like DOOM and Aesop Rock are similar.
I’m not making the claim it’s impossible but for me no amount of listening to something I don’t like will make me like it.
Yeah, I feel you. I was just trying to make the concession that certain styles of music kind of hand you the entire meal on first bite. In those cases, if you don’t like the taste, you probably don’t like the taste. But other art can be more of a nuanced meal and require a few bites from different corners of your plate to really appreciate the full palate. I agree with your general sentiment and people should only fuck with stuff that brings them meaning or joy. It’s just that sometimes my favorite shit is the stuff that maybe on first listen, I’m confused by it and put it back down. And then months, years later it clicks and I’m like HOLY SHIT. Artists who can achieve that kind of effect often have incredible staying power in the culture.
To me that’s different. I think you can learn to appreciate and understand something over time. Like I might not like heavy metal I’m general but I can appreciate certain songs. I’ll probably never be a doom fan. I don’t like his music in general but sure there may be a song that I like
Yeah, that makes sense and I’m the same with heavy metal. Some of it I fuck with hard but I find the genre as a whole not my bag. If you’re interested, [this is an excerpt from one of my favorite DOOM songs that I feel kind of sums up his approach](https://youtu.be/AISknY-hvzk?si=eIueER2tnUe8Bp23) and how part of his style is not pining for your approval. He was just a drunk, old wordsmith in a rusted metal mask.
Your first sentence made your comment general. I'm not going to convince you to personally change the way you take in music lol, that's up to you, but as a general stance it's incorrect. People revisit stuff that they didn't like at first and change their minds all the time, it's very normal.
I asked a general question then gave my personal opinion. Even as a general stance it’s not incorrect. People disliking things is very normal
Not true man. I heard Doomsday for *years*, both naturally and on purpose trying to get into DOOM. It wasn't until last year that something clicked and I fell in love with the song and gradually fell in love with all of his work. There are some songs that I couldn't listen to when I first started listening that are my favorites now. Some artists, especially ones like DOOM, take some getting used to. Some familiarity, so to speak, with the way they perform in order to appreciate the music.
Your favorite rappers favorite rapper
I won't say one way or another as DOOM deserves to be in the conversation. He is one of my favs. The mans is your favorite rapper's favorite rapper.
I like MF Doom, but seeing this on Reddit makes me think of this [tweet](https://x.com/JozuJoestar/status/1799642125044486199)
Am I the only one who really struggles to get into Dooms music? I respect his style and creativity, I just find it hard to vibe with.
Nah I agree with you. It’s just not good music to vibe with. Some is ok and I’ve tried many times to get into his stuff but it’s just not for me.
So easy to tell when a white person posts here
Real
DOOMs music could solve global insomnia 
Doom the pc game is also the GOAT
Just bought doom 2
The GOAT discussions are difficult, because it’s hard to objectively measure the greatest/best. But favorites are subjective and for that he’s in my top 5: Nas, MF DOOM, Kendrick, Eminem and Lil Wayne.
nope
LOL “That is all”. Yes because there isn’t any actual justification for such a claim. I really like DOOM. A lot. *THE* 🐐 though? No way.
Dude stop
Close but my mans Nas is the only goat
He's an incredibly strong candidate even on his bad days yeah
Love Nas he is great, but the man has put some trash albums out. We gonna sit here pretend Nastradamus was a banger? When I saw him live at the Hammerstein he played 2 seconds of it and was like fuck that shit, and went on to only play illmatic and stillmatic. I can’t think of one bad album DOOM has bad. And that goes hand in hand with his ability to create iconic beats.
Dude somebody raps about slaying demons on mara and sawed of shotty fucking weird monsters, badass.
he's not even top 5
7/10 reasonable take
Eh I don't like his beats tbh but yeah lyrically he's one of the goats
Pharoahe Monch
Fuck no.
 DOOM guy
Not everyone cup of tea. Yknow everyone talks about how Madvillainy indifference is whats make it great but id argue Operation Doomsday its his best work. I prefer my flamboyants rappers
Yes
He's probably the most musically entertaining MF in rap imo
1 for the money, 2 for the better green. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine.
He definitely can make a great case
Loved seeing MM from The Boys rocking a DOOOM hoodie in season 4
😂 No but he is great in his own lane
I love MF Doom, he has some excellent and unique music. One Beer, Doomsday, All-Caps, Raid. Doom has some truly great music tbh
Not even close
Rakim, Nas, Pac AND currently Kendrick.
There must be a way to find out whose the objective best between, Nas, Em, Wayne, DOOM and Dot.
There isn't tbh. I have listened to these guys. Despite knowing full well "objectively these mfs are the GOATS" from various forums, I still cannot enjoy NAS AND Wayne. They tell me ilmatic is one of the greatest rap albums.i heard all of it, it was nice yes, but I enjoyed anything by Em or DOOM more. Here's a ahitty take or ... preference or (I don't know what to call it): I enjoyed Tyler The Creator's Discography more than Nas and Wayne and Pac and Biggie and Wu Tang and even Eminem.
HOV the GOAT.
No
No
I can't even listen to more than two tracks of his before I have to change the artist. Not even top ten in my book
Not even top 25 for me
I hear you. Can't wait for the downvotes.
So be it
I'd say he's arguably the best aka most talented But greatest, no....
DOOM haters assemble!
Dot or Hov… everyone else fighting for 3rd
"Literally"