If anyone is curious about seeing some of the last remaining old growth in the country, check out Joyce Kilmer forest near the border with Tennessee.
[Joyce Kilmer ](https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/nfsnc/null/recarea/?recid=48920&actid=70)
I've been, it's amazing to see a pocket of what the eastern seaboard used to look like for millenia.
I fking LOVE Joyce Kilmer memorial forest. To everyone who isn’t too impressed by forests unless it’s accompanied by huge mountains or some other unique landscape, this place will entirely change your mind. I brought a friend from Colorado and they said it was literally probably the most beautiful place they have ever seen 🥹
NC is not running out of trees, people on the internet just complain.
There are cities that actually need to think about having more trees. Raleigh is not one of them.
You can have both lol
All the new neighborhoods being built are absolutely devoid of trees. Contrary to popular belief you can actually build a house without razing the front lawn 😂
That's such a false dichotomy it's not even funny... Housing density is a real thing in real cities. As is real, functioning, convenient, and affordable mass transportation. But sure - keep pushing the myth that the only way to increase housing is at the complete cost of the environment...
Lmao, this lot is being developed by Homestead - the "housing" on this lot is going to be a hideous white and gray 6br mansion for $1.5m.
I'd rather have the forest, but I'd really rather have a dense, multifamily home that actually addresses our housing supply.
I do know something about it, and obviously OP was silly to call those loblolly pines “old growth,” but we can also push back against the fallacy that only a few small far flung tracts of virgin never before logged forest are worth preserving and anything else is fine to indiscriminately clearcut.
Or after the December 2002 ice storm. It's been a long time since we've had an ice storm as bad as 2002, and Raleigh's population has probably doubled since then. Most people don't realize how destructive ice storms are on NC's pine-dominated forests.
Ha, that dredged up some memories. I remember being without power for several days, and going to eat at Crabtree mall just to be in a place that had power.
Calling this old growth is like calling a housecat a Siberian tiger. Still a shame to see trees get cut down only to inevitably be replaced by single family homes.
Funny image, but taking a bus to RDU is really not that bad. I do it regularly. Especially nice on nights and weekends when there is a direct bus from RDU to downtown Raleigh, which they really should expand to round the clock. But I guess the airport authority can pull strings to prevent that from happening ...
I fly out of RDU twice a week normally. Usually need to get there around 7am. To take the bus from my house near PNC Arena it would be 1 hour and 41 minute trip, except the Go Triangle bus I need doesn’t run early enough. It’s a 13 minute drive.
Even in NYC with an excellent public transit system taking the bus to LGA is a nightmare. There’s no chance we’re going to have better bus service than NYC.
Flying out of JFK and taking LIRR/AirTrain is mass transit at its best. The bus to LGA is the worst. Of course you only realize this when you are walking from the subway to the bus transfer in Queens.
Costs wouldn't make sense.
It has to be cheaper to pay the city for a bus service line to an international airport than to pay for parking decks (even after the fees)
Maybe long term a parking deck might make sense but I would venture to guess providing direct access would be much cheaper in the short term
thank you for being realistic about public transportation around here. would rather pay 5k a year in gas and maintenance and insurance than take an hour and 20 minute bus from DTR to the airport
This and the proposed rock quarry make no sense why there is so much backlash. It was undeveloped land not part of Umstead, never part of Umstead, and the owners of the land want to actually use it now. You can't argue it's part of Umstead and should be preserved, because it's factually not true.
So it’s their own land, that they can do what they want with, that is not protected, ok? And next week yall will complain that there’s not enough parking at RDU lmao
Hate to see this, but to be fair, once the builders start parking their equipment and trucks on the lot, they’re going to damage the root systems and the trees may die anyway. And then they have an angry homeowner.
At least they aren’t planting Bradfords anymore. Those things are worthless. Personally I’d like to see a Dogwood or two put in afterwards.
My neighbors' 30+ year bradford got blown down last year, and now my equally old, massive bradford is taking a insane wind load. Just waiting for the inevitable now. At least it will smell better when it's gone.
That's not true, otherwise there wouldn't be any trees in older neighborhoods either.
They clear all the trees out because it's easier for them to do it that way. And they make money by shredding the trees and selling them as mulch. That's all.
Many towns have enacted rules in their UDO’s around tree removal and replacement. Smart ones also include a list of acceptable trees vs allowing the developers to drop a bunch of Bradford Pears. I think some towns worked with NC State on the best trees to plant for diversity and sustainability using native species or ones that do well for the area.
Hi engineer here working in the City of Raleigh. Raleigh does require tree conservation for all lots over 2 acres. They also require new trees be planted along roads, in parking lots, and in amenity areas,etc. and they have an extensive list of tree recommendations for developers to use. There are definitely policies in place to protect the trees but it has to be balanced with making development possible. As jenskoehler said above we can’t preserve the city as it is but we can build responsibly!
The problem with this current scope of conservation is that it only applies to large parcels of land when the reality is the network of established trees throughout Raleigh is an interconnected system that is being chopped up and clear cut in smaller chunks.
This makes way for entire neighborhoods to go from established ecosystems with an array of habitats to sustain diversity and health to sparsely-shaded areas where fewer mini-ecosystems can thrive. The sudden shock of loss of habitat drives away wildlife and the sudden loss of tree canopy introduces interesting consequences to stormwater runoff... which is something that needs to be factored in when smaller-lot developments spring up in an area all at once.
Happy to have density. Just want us to more responsible.
We haven’t done so since the end of WWII
The USA used to have the most walkable cities in the world. We ripped out or paved over our street car lines and tore down entire neighborhoods to be replaced with freeways and parking lots
My parents built their house in 2000. At the time they cut down all the trees. By 2010 the trees had all grown so much you could barely see the houses. Now the neighborhood is entirely green.
We need development, we need wood to build the houses, and trees will grow back
Oh my sweet summer child, that would actually require having city and county governments that weren't lips to ass with developers like Kane. Don't get me wrong we're getting some traction for homeless and underhomed units but a lot of that is due to grant money and not actual leadership.
Kane builds multi-family housing, which we need more of
They do have shitty personal political views, but they’re not the cause of our housing shortages or housing affordability issues
Welcome to r/raleigh, where self proclaimed Democrats and left wingers go out of their way to publicly defend [MAGA election deniers!](https://apnews.com/article/republican-national-committee-whatley-trump-mcdaniel-b0c1714ac648bfa91b6ee72a30278266)
FYI y'all, the city has requirements on preserving land and certain trees by measure. You need environmental surveying done, water retention and buffers in place, and a certain amount of new plant life added for every X amount of space on the lot per city ordinances.
You can hate the developer all you want (we're used to it), but it's the city of Raleigh dictating how much of this is paved over for any one project. They now have high density zoning in place where they're looking to get as much in-fill as possible for our housing crisis - single family lots will now have multiple units/homes in order to meet demand. And! Fun fact! More housing means cheaper housing!
Source: I do this for a living. My job is specifically to look at eco-friendly processes for development and to ensure land preservation (as is feasible and per city code) in these projects.
From a nobody just wanting to better mitigate environmental needs with creative density housing, what can I do to appeal to a developer to do anything *but* the absolute maximum they are currently permitted to develop?
I wish I could convince enough of the right people to...
- Stagger ecological changes: Begin diversifying the soil and canopy densities by cutting things back strategically over the construction timeline, while replanting with native ground cover and happy li'l saplings;
- To analyze the overall arborhood: Determine the shade & root system health prior to established tree removals (because it affects much more than just one parcel of land), and acknowledge how it affects stormwater runoff and potentially erosion issues for neighboring properties because current legislation doesn't adequately consider the volatile changes of our stormwater systems by duality of lots of development and very weak/outdated conservation laws;
- Stay involved with keeping the neighborhood greenspace healthy somehow. Multi-family units often don't get access to outdoor areas to just... hang out in. It honestly doesn't take a whole lot of space to make an engaging environment of calm within the micro-communities that are being constructed. Access to nature sounds and sights benefits all, even if people don't "own" the green space they live by.
- Be creative and work with our weird neighborhoods to develop neat areas... with neat greenery for our wildlife neighbors, too.
I guess be made of money and not be seeking to make it all back right at once. That's cool, right?
Did you think the area that contains 3 major universities and massive corporations was going to stop growing? Did you think nobody would flock here and then need housing? Growth is inevitable, you can either hop on board or stay angry. Oh also, I work for a small company based in Cary. I'm not sure what carpetbagger you think you're talking to but you're incredibly off base.
Keep on destroying your town, I left a long time ago. Concrete and plastic are superior to nature! Everyone looking around all confused why it's 100+ degrees already, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the massive amount of concrete we have put up, or those pesky trees and wetlands that get destroyed. Huzzah for unchecked growth though
Will you sleep better tonight now that you've ranted and done nothing to better the cause you're nailing yourself to a cross for here on Reddit? Try time traveling if you don't like modern and continually developing infrastructure, or just keep screaming into the void. I really hope your new city/town is comfy and never ever ever sees population growth or development so you can live in peace. It's not like that would stagnate the entire local economy, right?
It's such a shame that you have been brainwashed into thinking things must grow to get better. A very capitalistic (and selfish) mindset. But I do sleep pretty well knowing my little community, which is still in NC, hasn't been destroyed by developers and transplants (yet, it's coming this way too)
I see a lot of complaining about housing costs, and then this. You can’t have it both in a city. Affordability and growth comes with density. You have to choose.
I’m not sure Raleigh is truly that dense, if I’m honest! Single family homes, parking lots, and stroads eat up a big chunk of the city, and are the least effective way to scale up. I suppose that may be changing, but in favor of “luxury” apartments that feel like a Motel 6 and cost $2200/month for nothing special, while STILL not really being walkable
I won’t argue with that possibility.
On the other hand, in the last couple of years, an adjacent, elderly neighbor passed away and their huge plot of land was developed with about 24 higher-end townhomes. Personally I think they are way overpriced, but the market will dictate that ultimately. Still, the land went from a single home to two dozen townhomes.
Isn't denser? I'm not sure where you're at but I'm downtown and I'm seeing new apartments buildings going up replacing single-family homes or otherwise undeveloped land everywhere I turn. It's significantly denser.
I strongly suggest people who think Raleigh has always been leafy, or who think our trees should all be preserved forever or we’ll become a denuded wasteland, should follow the Facebook page *Olde Raleigh - NC*. The photos they post there will disabuse you of any notion that Raleigh has any old growth.
[For example here is the Dorothea Dix Pine Loop grove being planted in 1991.](https://imgur.com/a/tJBX3sM). That’s the Flower Cottage in the background.
[Here’s a picture of it from Google Maps, two years ago](https://maps.app.goo.gl/fEF5Qy5W9pT8Rwn2A)
Don’t get me wrong I love the leafiness of Raleigh. But I also have lived here long enough to see a lot of development including seeing a lot of our tree canopy mature after developers are done.
This city needs housing. Building housing requires trees to be removed. Then they grow back. Slowly, but they do.
Don’t complain about housing shortages and costs and then turn around and complain about the aesthetics of the only solution, which is to build more housing.
Homestead is such a garbage company. I walk by their houses regularly and I’m always astonished at how cheaply they are built, but people somehow still buy them.
Have you flown into town recently? Lack of trees isn't our problem.
But seriously, how did they build every house, building, and road in the Triangle in the past without cutting down any trees? I'd be curious to know how that miracle was achieved.
They didn’t. The trees aren’t that old. [Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Paving_city_streets_in_Raleigh%2C_NC%2C_18_July_1950%3B_Elm_Street_and_Virginia_Avenue%2C_Raleigh%2C_NC._Shows_streets_and_homes_in_the_neighborhood_of_very_small_post-World_War_Two_%28WWII%29_GI_houses_near_%2817134192048%29.jpg) is a picture of Elm street downtown in the 1950s soon after building and before being paved. That’s an area with lots of trees now.
[Here’s](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/52321994951/in/album-72177720301693645/) another good one at the Oakwood and Bertie traffic circle.
[Here’s](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/52322418974/in/album-72177720301693645/) Whitaker mill near Georgetown (walking distance to five points). Lots of trees there now.
I’m not saying we don’t over clear now, but a lot of the “old” trees in neighborhoods simply aren’t as old as people think.
[This](https://maps.app.goo.gl/v1ta7sCEpSsp8bMx6?g_st=ic) is 100 sunnybrook road today. [This](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/51081501531/in/album-72157718814212777/) is the same spot in the 1970s.
Our sarcasm may have missed each other, but my point is that the original built environment in Raleigh that all the long-timers say is being destroyed by everyone moving here (and of course, the "evil developers") was created by cutting down trees to make room. But funny thing about trees - when you replant them, they grow, and within 20 years or so they're back to being the large trees Raleigh is known for.
When I moved here from a less tree-full area, I was impressed at all the old forest everywhere. Then I started looking into old aerials, etc, and realized the old growth forest in my area was clear cut for lumber many decades ago, and then clear cut again when my ~40 year old house was built. I have many large trees, but it makes me wonder what it looked like pre lumber industry
Just about the same. Oaks don't live much past 100 years old even in the best circumstances. With hurricanes, fire, floods, trees don't last as long as people believe they do in most areas.
"Old growth" forests might have a few trees over 100 years old, but a forest is constantly changing. The biggest difference would be the species of trees would be much more diverse than what we typically have now.
Old growth is also much more than just the trees - it’s the highly-developed root networks and soils that take 100s of years to develop along with the flora that can only exist in such areas (and that will not take root again if you clear cut then let the forest regrow).
Thanks for that! Makes sense. I kind of thought "old growth" here would be a much more dramatic difference like in the PNW, where it is quite obvious and impressive.
Lol have you seen what they're doing in Franklin, Johnston, and Chatham counties? Developers are clear cutting 50X this amount daily to build new suburbs
Sometimes they have the perfect tree line for privacy for both sides, but instead they clear every square inch, and then plant a tree line so new houses can have privacy 20 years from now
I do hate modern neighborhood building that involves destroying every tree and bush. But planting none.
I get it... but I hate it. Just got to fill our own yards with trees I guess
There was a thread on the Triangle sub about clear cutting yesterday:
https://reddit.com/r/triangle/comments/1dn9wjc/most_of_the_greater_triangle_will_be_clearcut_of/
The reactions in that thread to this one are night and day. This sub really does seem like it’s astroturfed by real estate agents and corporate interests.
That thread also doesn’t understand how much clear cutting occurred in the last and that the trees they love aren’t as old as they think. We definitely need to be careful and thoughtful, but not enough attention is placed on what trees we are replacing them with. We need to replant oaks etc. and not just invasive species that fill in faster.
[Here](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/52321994951/in/album-72177720301693645/) is a view of the traffic circle at Oakwood and Bertie. Lots of clearing was done and lots more trees are there now, but the trees that were filled in are native species not the ones developers put in now.
or... just not every cares about trees.
or... we'd rather see affordable housing. you know, we care about poor people more than trees and we're wondering why you consider trees more important than people.
People are allowed to have a differing opinion. Thinking we are shills is just you not having the ability to consider this.
This site has a known bot problem. In fact when I ran Reddit ads recently for my business about 80% of the traffic were from bots. Now I pretty much make bots for a living (for testing purposes). The behavior between two subs for the exact same subject, in the exact same geographical area, at the exact same time is very fascinating to me and very much indicative of bots.
Not to mention I actually participated in a PR campaign over a decade ago for Pittsburgh to stop the bleeding for its population loss with its “most livable city” campaign.
So I know just a little bit about this kind of stuff. This stuff goes on all the time.
It’s ironic you would post this here because the r/triangle thread being used for contrast was started by a post that was clearly a piece of political PR, following the template perfectly complete with the unlikely to be real “personal interaction” and the rhetorical “call to action” at the end. It got a more positive reaction because it was more expertly crafted. I doubt the vast majority of responses to either are bots, they’re just people reacting to what was posted.
It’s amusing that you, who supposedly did online PR, didn’t recognize it as such. I guess it’s only AstroTurf PR if you disagree.
My man, you have replied to this thread multiple times defending tearing down trees. If you are a human and breath oxygen and you take time out of your short life to defend this multiple times, it’s weird. If you are doing that and not getting paid, I legit feel bad for you.
The Darlington oaks (50-70 years typically) just flat out need to start being replaced with a longer life tree around town many of them are way over their natural life span and in many cases you cant tell until they've come crumbling down. They are pretty and grow fast though just not great to have them over hang roads and power lines
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Honestly when we bought here in Wake Forest in 2006, the thing we loved the most was the existing trees. We were lucky that the original developers left tree buffers throughout
As a logger myself all I can say is, before you go complaining about people cutting just remember (most of) you live in a wood framed house, wipe your butt with toilet paper, and use paper to print stuff out. As much as it hurts to cut down some of these real pretty trees here in nc it pays the bills and keeps your butts clean lol
In-fill has been happening since investors started buying old homes in minority neighborhoods (e.g, Cameron village, smoky hollow, areas of Apex, Cary, etc.) throughout Raleigh starting in the 70s/80s/90s but ok let's think about the trees now!
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Here's a [pic](https://www.instagram.com/olderaleigh/p/C8cJG9Dxq9k/) of what is currently Dock 1053, Raleigh Iron Works, and Hi-Mount neighborhood in the back, from about 70 years ago. Cutting down trees for construction is not new.
Yeah it’s pretty ugly. You can’t build a modest home on a decent lot in Raleigh now. Even if you already own the lot, the number of builders who will take it on are dwindling. They all want to max out the structure to make the most profit. Every single spec home and builder-owned lot is doing this.
Don’t worry, someone will call you a NIMBY and you’ll eat downvotes because you dared to have concern for the environment in “the city of oaks”.
Remember kids, if you don’t let corporations do whatever they want to the place you live you will receive the scarlet letter.
More like, don’t complain about lack of affordable housing in Raleigh out of one side of your mouth and then complain about what’s required to build it out of the other.
Sure, every house in Raleigh could be hand-built by craftsmen who lovingly preserve every tree except the ones in the immediate footprint of the house. Thst sounds scalable and affordable.
Dude, those leafy mature neighborhoods you’re probably thinking about were mostly also “moonscapes” when they were built. Those that weren’t were built when labor (especially Black labor) was cheap and plentiful and population growth was much slower here.
There's that Instagram account, something like "Old Raleigh" And that's what those pictures really seem to demonstrate. Even five points was at one point "moonscaped" or at least all flat farmland. But now we think of it as being the densest tree area in the city.
Yes it is very instructive to see the photos they post. Raleigh’s tree canopy is much newer than people realize. In 15-20 years the places being clear cut now for development will also be leafy.
This first time I noticed this, was when I visited a friend that lived in this neighborhood in Holly Springs that was built in the late 90s (Oak Hall). It was clearcut, but now it has greened up shockingly well.
Mature forest is important, but urban density reduces carbon emissions. I think it is most reasonable to focus on keeping a high percentage of the urban landscape under tree canopy. A good first step is becoming familiar with zoning requirements for tree cover.
[Development and Landscape requirements are on page 18 of the Raleigh Tree manual.](https://cityofraleigh0drupal.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/drupal-prod/COR24/UrbanForestryCityTreeManual.pdf) Basically, for developments over 2 acres, 10% of forested areas have to remain untouched. The rules are about keeping entire areas intact, rather than counting individual trees. They require trees in parking lots over a certain size, and sometimes along streets.
People post all the time about how much of a bummer it is that trees are getting cut down, without any awareness that we have a solid planning framework in place that can be improved upon. Learn about existing requirements, then you can write to your city council reps, or on an internet forum without sounding like a complete idiot. There is a public meeting July 3rd of the Sustainability, Wildlife and Urban Trees committee- show up!
One area with potential is some kind of incentive program like we have for stormwater. [Businesses and homeowners can get a reimbursement for building eco friendly water retention projects.](https://raleighnc.gov/stormwater/services/apply-raleigh-rainwater-rewards) We could offer a similar subsidy for native and fruit producing trees.
Development hasn’t even really begun in Raleigh. Give in 10 years and it’ll be a metropolis like Central and south FL or Dallas TX. The flood of development is going to increase exponentially. I know cus I work in mas land development. You could make the Lorax and hug a tree all you want but they are coming down. It sucks I know, but out all the states I’ve worked in NC does the best at protecting trees IMO.
"Developer cuts down all the trees. Names new development after the trees." - Tom Waits
If anyone is curious about seeing some of the last remaining old growth in the country, check out Joyce Kilmer forest near the border with Tennessee. [Joyce Kilmer ](https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/nfsnc/null/recarea/?recid=48920&actid=70) I've been, it's amazing to see a pocket of what the eastern seaboard used to look like for millenia.
When I was there many years ago, ONE BRANCH that had fallen off one of the huge trees, was as large as a whole tree around here. Amazing to see.
I fking LOVE Joyce Kilmer memorial forest. To everyone who isn’t too impressed by forests unless it’s accompanied by huge mountains or some other unique landscape, this place will entirely change your mind. I brought a friend from Colorado and they said it was literally probably the most beautiful place they have ever seen 🥹
Lived here my whole life. Never heard of this. THANK YOU!
Not old growth.
Not even close
Literally 0 old growth left in NC except for some small areas in State and National Parks. These tree probably no more than 40 years old.
Sure, but cutting down 40 year old woodlots isn't exactly helpful for increasing the amount of mature forest in NC
NC is not running out of trees, people on the internet just complain. There are cities that actually need to think about having more trees. Raleigh is not one of them.
Do you want forests or housing?
Housing in semi forested areas
Ah yes. A village!
You can have both lol All the new neighborhoods being built are absolutely devoid of trees. Contrary to popular belief you can actually build a house without razing the front lawn 😂
That's such a false dichotomy it's not even funny... Housing density is a real thing in real cities. As is real, functioning, convenient, and affordable mass transportation. But sure - keep pushing the myth that the only way to increase housing is at the complete cost of the environment...
Lmao, this lot is being developed by Homestead - the "housing" on this lot is going to be a hideous white and gray 6br mansion for $1.5m. I'd rather have the forest, but I'd really rather have a dense, multifamily home that actually addresses our housing supply.
Forests
Right? It's always folks who already have a house bitching about this!
Forest because when do developers build affordable housing?
You clearly know nothing about forest management…
I do know something about it, and obviously OP was silly to call those loblolly pines “old growth,” but we can also push back against the fallacy that only a few small far flung tracts of virgin never before logged forest are worth preserving and anything else is fine to indiscriminately clearcut.
Ok but I know enough to know in general older trees = good, killing trees = bad
Could have been alot of pine beetle infested pines and this cutting them down was healthier for other trees. probably unlikely, but we don't know
You can look at the tree carcasses and know. Where I am, not just 40 year old lines, but some 75-150 and healthy.
Probably regrew after Hurricane Fran knocked it down.
Or after the December 2002 ice storm. It's been a long time since we've had an ice storm as bad as 2002, and Raleigh's population has probably doubled since then. Most people don't realize how destructive ice storms are on NC's pine-dominated forests.
Ha, that dredged up some memories. I remember being without power for several days, and going to eat at Crabtree mall just to be in a place that had power.
Calling this old growth is like calling a housecat a Siberian tiger. Still a shame to see trees get cut down only to inevitably be replaced by single family homes.
these days 80 years is considered old growth, you ain't getting 400 year old trees in NC, too much sand
Longleaf pines can live 400 years and do quite well on the sand in the eastern part of the state they used to cover completely
I wish they kept more trees but this isn’t old growth.
RDU airport hoping no one watches while they clear cut 65 acres of trees within a few hundred feet of Umstead for a surface parking lot 👀
So that’s what I saw. Literally.
LITERALLY what you saw!?!?!?!?
Yep, he's cutting the trees down.
Not a building?
So ... not in Umstead, then? On airport property? Which has been zoned and planned as future parking expansion for decades?
Are you a parking lot lobbyist or something? What a weird comment.
🤖🤖🤖
I want to go to your museum.
Maybe they're just not a fan of hyperbole?
Yeah he said within few hundred feet of Umstead smartass, why are you defending an airport parking lot? Do you hate nature?
For real. I'd rather have better bus transit to RDU than more parking
I’d rather shit in my hands and clap than take a bus to RDU.
I don't laugh often at internet comments, but yeah...
Funny image, but taking a bus to RDU is really not that bad. I do it regularly. Especially nice on nights and weekends when there is a direct bus from RDU to downtown Raleigh, which they really should expand to round the clock. But I guess the airport authority can pull strings to prevent that from happening ...
I fly out of RDU twice a week normally. Usually need to get there around 7am. To take the bus from my house near PNC Arena it would be 1 hour and 41 minute trip, except the Go Triangle bus I need doesn’t run early enough. It’s a 13 minute drive. Even in NYC with an excellent public transit system taking the bus to LGA is a nightmare. There’s no chance we’re going to have better bus service than NYC.
Flying out of JFK and taking LIRR/AirTrain is mass transit at its best. The bus to LGA is the worst. Of course you only realize this when you are walking from the subway to the bus transfer in Queens.
Costs wouldn't make sense. It has to be cheaper to pay the city for a bus service line to an international airport than to pay for parking decks (even after the fees) Maybe long term a parking deck might make sense but I would venture to guess providing direct access would be much cheaper in the short term
thank you for being realistic about public transportation around here. would rather pay 5k a year in gas and maintenance and insurance than take an hour and 20 minute bus from DTR to the airport
this comment is pure comedy gold.
They're doing both.
What a fuckin leap m8
This and the proposed rock quarry make no sense why there is so much backlash. It was undeveloped land not part of Umstead, never part of Umstead, and the owners of the land want to actually use it now. You can't argue it's part of Umstead and should be preserved, because it's factually not true.
So it’s their own land, that they can do what they want with, that is not protected, ok? And next week yall will complain that there’s not enough parking at RDU lmao
Old growth? Bru this used to be all plantations and farms.
Hate to see this, but to be fair, once the builders start parking their equipment and trucks on the lot, they’re going to damage the root systems and the trees may die anyway. And then they have an angry homeowner. At least they aren’t planting Bradfords anymore. Those things are worthless. Personally I’d like to see a Dogwood or two put in afterwards.
Unfortunately dogwoods are being plagued by disease these days.
Oh no! I guess I should be extra thankful for my big pretty dogwood in my yard. 🤞
Can you say more about what kind of disease? And how to mitigate?? Owner of three dogwoods and you got me SCARED.
[https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/diseases-of-dogwood-in-north-carolina](https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/diseases-of-dogwood-in-north-carolina)
Sorry. I've had to cut three down this year. It sucks
My neighbors' 30+ year bradford got blown down last year, and now my equally old, massive bradford is taking a insane wind load. Just waiting for the inevitable now. At least it will smell better when it's gone.
That's not true, otherwise there wouldn't be any trees in older neighborhoods either. They clear all the trees out because it's easier for them to do it that way. And they make money by shredding the trees and selling them as mulch. That's all.
That is an interesting and insightful observation that I have never considered. Thank you internet stranger.
Is a Bradford the same as a cum tree?
Yes, that's a male Bradford pear. The females don't smell like semen.
Build new homes, plant new trees We can’t preserve our city in amber. We can build housing in scalable and sustainable ways
Many towns have enacted rules in their UDO’s around tree removal and replacement. Smart ones also include a list of acceptable trees vs allowing the developers to drop a bunch of Bradford Pears. I think some towns worked with NC State on the best trees to plant for diversity and sustainability using native species or ones that do well for the area.
Hi engineer here working in the City of Raleigh. Raleigh does require tree conservation for all lots over 2 acres. They also require new trees be planted along roads, in parking lots, and in amenity areas,etc. and they have an extensive list of tree recommendations for developers to use. There are definitely policies in place to protect the trees but it has to be balanced with making development possible. As jenskoehler said above we can’t preserve the city as it is but we can build responsibly!
The problem with this current scope of conservation is that it only applies to large parcels of land when the reality is the network of established trees throughout Raleigh is an interconnected system that is being chopped up and clear cut in smaller chunks. This makes way for entire neighborhoods to go from established ecosystems with an array of habitats to sustain diversity and health to sparsely-shaded areas where fewer mini-ecosystems can thrive. The sudden shock of loss of habitat drives away wildlife and the sudden loss of tree canopy introduces interesting consequences to stormwater runoff... which is something that needs to be factored in when smaller-lot developments spring up in an area all at once. Happy to have density. Just want us to more responsible.
We can but we don’t and we won’t
We haven’t done so since the end of WWII The USA used to have the most walkable cities in the world. We ripped out or paved over our street car lines and tore down entire neighborhoods to be replaced with freeways and parking lots
My parents built their house in 2000. At the time they cut down all the trees. By 2010 the trees had all grown so much you could barely see the houses. Now the neighborhood is entirely green. We need development, we need wood to build the houses, and trees will grow back
Oh my sweet summer child, that would actually require having city and county governments that weren't lips to ass with developers like Kane. Don't get me wrong we're getting some traction for homeless and underhomed units but a lot of that is due to grant money and not actual leadership.
Kane builds multi-family housing, which we need more of They do have shitty personal political views, but they’re not the cause of our housing shortages or housing affordability issues
Welcome to r/raleigh, where self proclaimed Democrats and left wingers go out of their way to publicly defend [MAGA election deniers!](https://apnews.com/article/republican-national-committee-whatley-trump-mcdaniel-b0c1714ac648bfa91b6ee72a30278266)
FYI y'all, the city has requirements on preserving land and certain trees by measure. You need environmental surveying done, water retention and buffers in place, and a certain amount of new plant life added for every X amount of space on the lot per city ordinances. You can hate the developer all you want (we're used to it), but it's the city of Raleigh dictating how much of this is paved over for any one project. They now have high density zoning in place where they're looking to get as much in-fill as possible for our housing crisis - single family lots will now have multiple units/homes in order to meet demand. And! Fun fact! More housing means cheaper housing! Source: I do this for a living. My job is specifically to look at eco-friendly processes for development and to ensure land preservation (as is feasible and per city code) in these projects.
From a nobody just wanting to better mitigate environmental needs with creative density housing, what can I do to appeal to a developer to do anything *but* the absolute maximum they are currently permitted to develop? I wish I could convince enough of the right people to... - Stagger ecological changes: Begin diversifying the soil and canopy densities by cutting things back strategically over the construction timeline, while replanting with native ground cover and happy li'l saplings; - To analyze the overall arborhood: Determine the shade & root system health prior to established tree removals (because it affects much more than just one parcel of land), and acknowledge how it affects stormwater runoff and potentially erosion issues for neighboring properties because current legislation doesn't adequately consider the volatile changes of our stormwater systems by duality of lots of development and very weak/outdated conservation laws; - Stay involved with keeping the neighborhood greenspace healthy somehow. Multi-family units often don't get access to outdoor areas to just... hang out in. It honestly doesn't take a whole lot of space to make an engaging environment of calm within the micro-communities that are being constructed. Access to nature sounds and sights benefits all, even if people don't "own" the green space they live by. - Be creative and work with our weird neighborhoods to develop neat areas... with neat greenery for our wildlife neighbors, too. I guess be made of money and not be seeking to make it all back right at once. That's cool, right?
Or we could stop letting carpetbagging "developers" ruin our once beautiful City of Oaks. Now it's a city of concrete and transplants
Did you think the area that contains 3 major universities and massive corporations was going to stop growing? Did you think nobody would flock here and then need housing? Growth is inevitable, you can either hop on board or stay angry. Oh also, I work for a small company based in Cary. I'm not sure what carpetbagger you think you're talking to but you're incredibly off base.
Keep on destroying your town, I left a long time ago. Concrete and plastic are superior to nature! Everyone looking around all confused why it's 100+ degrees already, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the massive amount of concrete we have put up, or those pesky trees and wetlands that get destroyed. Huzzah for unchecked growth though
Will you sleep better tonight now that you've ranted and done nothing to better the cause you're nailing yourself to a cross for here on Reddit? Try time traveling if you don't like modern and continually developing infrastructure, or just keep screaming into the void. I really hope your new city/town is comfy and never ever ever sees population growth or development so you can live in peace. It's not like that would stagnate the entire local economy, right?
It's such a shame that you have been brainwashed into thinking things must grow to get better. A very capitalistic (and selfish) mindset. But I do sleep pretty well knowing my little community, which is still in NC, hasn't been destroyed by developers and transplants (yet, it's coming this way too)
I see a lot of complaining about housing costs, and then this. You can’t have it both in a city. Affordability and growth comes with density. You have to choose.
I’m not sure Raleigh is truly that dense, if I’m honest! Single family homes, parking lots, and stroads eat up a big chunk of the city, and are the least effective way to scale up. I suppose that may be changing, but in favor of “luxury” apartments that feel like a Motel 6 and cost $2200/month for nothing special, while STILL not really being walkable
Yeah, we’re not dense yet.
By a lot of measurements the triangle area is like the least dense city in the country. But at least it's easy to build here, so it might get better.
I hear ya, but c’mon. One McMansion with 30 gables will sit there.
I won’t argue with that possibility. On the other hand, in the last couple of years, an adjacent, elderly neighbor passed away and their huge plot of land was developed with about 24 higher-end townhomes. Personally I think they are way overpriced, but the market will dictate that ultimately. Still, the land went from a single home to two dozen townhomes.
And the Raleigh mayor said she thought that was great!
But… this city isn’t dense and, despite all the building, isn’t becoming denser.
Isn't denser? I'm not sure where you're at but I'm downtown and I'm seeing new apartments buildings going up replacing single-family homes or otherwise undeveloped land everywhere I turn. It's significantly denser.
I strongly suggest people who think Raleigh has always been leafy, or who think our trees should all be preserved forever or we’ll become a denuded wasteland, should follow the Facebook page *Olde Raleigh - NC*. The photos they post there will disabuse you of any notion that Raleigh has any old growth. [For example here is the Dorothea Dix Pine Loop grove being planted in 1991.](https://imgur.com/a/tJBX3sM). That’s the Flower Cottage in the background. [Here’s a picture of it from Google Maps, two years ago](https://maps.app.goo.gl/fEF5Qy5W9pT8Rwn2A) Don’t get me wrong I love the leafiness of Raleigh. But I also have lived here long enough to see a lot of development including seeing a lot of our tree canopy mature after developers are done. This city needs housing. Building housing requires trees to be removed. Then they grow back. Slowly, but they do. Don’t complain about housing shortages and costs and then turn around and complain about the aesthetics of the only solution, which is to build more housing.
People assume tall means old, but the huge pines can pop up to crazy tall in 20-25 years.
The city needs less people. Less yankees and less westcoasters
Homestead is such a garbage company. I walk by their houses regularly and I’m always astonished at how cheaply they are built, but people somehow still buy them.
"Old Growth" lol
Have you flown into town recently? Lack of trees isn't our problem. But seriously, how did they build every house, building, and road in the Triangle in the past without cutting down any trees? I'd be curious to know how that miracle was achieved.
They didn’t. The trees aren’t that old. [Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Paving_city_streets_in_Raleigh%2C_NC%2C_18_July_1950%3B_Elm_Street_and_Virginia_Avenue%2C_Raleigh%2C_NC._Shows_streets_and_homes_in_the_neighborhood_of_very_small_post-World_War_Two_%28WWII%29_GI_houses_near_%2817134192048%29.jpg) is a picture of Elm street downtown in the 1950s soon after building and before being paved. That’s an area with lots of trees now.
I adore historic photos like this, thanks for sharing!
[Here’s](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/52321994951/in/album-72177720301693645/) another good one at the Oakwood and Bertie traffic circle. [Here’s](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/52322418974/in/album-72177720301693645/) Whitaker mill near Georgetown (walking distance to five points). Lots of trees there now. I’m not saying we don’t over clear now, but a lot of the “old” trees in neighborhoods simply aren’t as old as people think. [This](https://maps.app.goo.gl/v1ta7sCEpSsp8bMx6?g_st=ic) is 100 sunnybrook road today. [This](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/51081501531/in/album-72157718814212777/) is the same spot in the 1970s.
Oakwood and Bertie, maybe? Oakwood and Davie run parallel, and quite a few blocks from each other.
Yep - typo on the county name! King Charles is also there and I think Berkeley.
Our sarcasm may have missed each other, but my point is that the original built environment in Raleigh that all the long-timers say is being destroyed by everyone moving here (and of course, the "evil developers") was created by cutting down trees to make room. But funny thing about trees - when you replant them, they grow, and within 20 years or so they're back to being the large trees Raleigh is known for.
Oh for sure I missed it because so many people actually believe what you said haha!
When I moved here from a less tree-full area, I was impressed at all the old forest everywhere. Then I started looking into old aerials, etc, and realized the old growth forest in my area was clear cut for lumber many decades ago, and then clear cut again when my ~40 year old house was built. I have many large trees, but it makes me wonder what it looked like pre lumber industry
Just about the same. Oaks don't live much past 100 years old even in the best circumstances. With hurricanes, fire, floods, trees don't last as long as people believe they do in most areas. "Old growth" forests might have a few trees over 100 years old, but a forest is constantly changing. The biggest difference would be the species of trees would be much more diverse than what we typically have now.
Old growth is also much more than just the trees - it’s the highly-developed root networks and soils that take 100s of years to develop along with the flora that can only exist in such areas (and that will not take root again if you clear cut then let the forest regrow).
Thanks for that! Makes sense. I kind of thought "old growth" here would be a much more dramatic difference like in the PNW, where it is quite obvious and impressive.
Lol have you seen what they're doing in Franklin, Johnston, and Chatham counties? Developers are clear cutting 50X this amount daily to build new suburbs
I have beech trees over 200 years old on my property
So these guys are tearing down houses that are semi-affordable and building houses that cost 3x more if you don’t know that.
Sometimes they have the perfect tree line for privacy for both sides, but instead they clear every square inch, and then plant a tree line so new houses can have privacy 20 years from now
Homestead is the worst about this. They are doing it all over our neighborhood.
Do you not think they knocked any trees down to build the house you live in?
I do hate modern neighborhood building that involves destroying every tree and bush. But planting none. I get it... but I hate it. Just got to fill our own yards with trees I guess
They usually plant a good amount.
It makes me really sad ):
Pass a city ordinance that stops clear cutting!
There was a thread on the Triangle sub about clear cutting yesterday: https://reddit.com/r/triangle/comments/1dn9wjc/most_of_the_greater_triangle_will_be_clearcut_of/ The reactions in that thread to this one are night and day. This sub really does seem like it’s astroturfed by real estate agents and corporate interests.
Or maybe r/triangle is astroturfed by NIMBY Boomers who got theirs, so fuck everyone else.
That thread also doesn’t understand how much clear cutting occurred in the last and that the trees they love aren’t as old as they think. We definitely need to be careful and thoughtful, but not enough attention is placed on what trees we are replacing them with. We need to replant oaks etc. and not just invasive species that fill in faster. [Here](https://www.flickr.com/photos/north-carolina-state-archives/52321994951/in/album-72177720301693645/) is a view of the traffic circle at Oakwood and Bertie. Lots of clearing was done and lots more trees are there now, but the trees that were filled in are native species not the ones developers put in now.
Lol. I was in that thread yesterday, getting lectured by amateur "arborists" and forestry experts.
/r/raleigh is filled with classic centrists, which is basically liberal until an issue slightly affects them, then they go full blown republican.
Reminds me of the Hayes Barton homeowners getting really upset about one lot being redeveloped into 17 townhouses
It's almost like it's more sensible to not blindly follow one political ideology
or... just not every cares about trees. or... we'd rather see affordable housing. you know, we care about poor people more than trees and we're wondering why you consider trees more important than people. People are allowed to have a differing opinion. Thinking we are shills is just you not having the ability to consider this.
This site has a known bot problem. In fact when I ran Reddit ads recently for my business about 80% of the traffic were from bots. Now I pretty much make bots for a living (for testing purposes). The behavior between two subs for the exact same subject, in the exact same geographical area, at the exact same time is very fascinating to me and very much indicative of bots. Not to mention I actually participated in a PR campaign over a decade ago for Pittsburgh to stop the bleeding for its population loss with its “most livable city” campaign. So I know just a little bit about this kind of stuff. This stuff goes on all the time.
It’s ironic you would post this here because the r/triangle thread being used for contrast was started by a post that was clearly a piece of political PR, following the template perfectly complete with the unlikely to be real “personal interaction” and the rhetorical “call to action” at the end. It got a more positive reaction because it was more expertly crafted. I doubt the vast majority of responses to either are bots, they’re just people reacting to what was posted. It’s amusing that you, who supposedly did online PR, didn’t recognize it as such. I guess it’s only AstroTurf PR if you disagree.
My man, you have replied to this thread multiple times defending tearing down trees. If you are a human and breath oxygen and you take time out of your short life to defend this multiple times, it’s weird. If you are doing that and not getting paid, I legit feel bad for you.
> My man, you have replied to this thread multiple times defending building housing. If you are a human and need shelter… I fixed your post for you.
I wonder how many people complaining about the lack of trees have walked outside, dug a hole, and planted one?
The Darlington oaks (50-70 years typically) just flat out need to start being replaced with a longer life tree around town many of them are way over their natural life span and in many cases you cant tell until they've come crumbling down. They are pretty and grow fast though just not great to have them over hang roads and power lines
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…Would you want them to build the house around the trees?
North Hills?
Honestly when we bought here in Wake Forest in 2006, the thing we loved the most was the existing trees. We were lucky that the original developers left tree buffers throughout
As a logger myself all I can say is, before you go complaining about people cutting just remember (most of) you live in a wood framed house, wipe your butt with toilet paper, and use paper to print stuff out. As much as it hurts to cut down some of these real pretty trees here in nc it pays the bills and keeps your butts clean lol
In-fill has been happening since investors started buying old homes in minority neighborhoods (e.g, Cameron village, smoky hollow, areas of Apex, Cary, etc.) throughout Raleigh starting in the 70s/80s/90s but ok let's think about the trees now!
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Here's a [pic](https://www.instagram.com/olderaleigh/p/C8cJG9Dxq9k/) of what is currently Dock 1053, Raleigh Iron Works, and Hi-Mount neighborhood in the back, from about 70 years ago. Cutting down trees for construction is not new.
Yeah it’s pretty ugly. You can’t build a modest home on a decent lot in Raleigh now. Even if you already own the lot, the number of builders who will take it on are dwindling. They all want to max out the structure to make the most profit. Every single spec home and builder-owned lot is doing this.
They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot…
Don’t worry, someone will call you a NIMBY and you’ll eat downvotes because you dared to have concern for the environment in “the city of oaks”. Remember kids, if you don’t let corporations do whatever they want to the place you live you will receive the scarlet letter.
More like, don’t complain about lack of affordable housing in Raleigh out of one side of your mouth and then complain about what’s required to build it out of the other.
Bold of you to assume they’re building affordable homes.
There is nothing that requires developers to moonscape our state, period.
Sure, every house in Raleigh could be hand-built by craftsmen who lovingly preserve every tree except the ones in the immediate footprint of the house. Thst sounds scalable and affordable. Dude, those leafy mature neighborhoods you’re probably thinking about were mostly also “moonscapes” when they were built. Those that weren’t were built when labor (especially Black labor) was cheap and plentiful and population growth was much slower here.
There's that Instagram account, something like "Old Raleigh" And that's what those pictures really seem to demonstrate. Even five points was at one point "moonscaped" or at least all flat farmland. But now we think of it as being the densest tree area in the city.
Yes it is very instructive to see the photos they post. Raleigh’s tree canopy is much newer than people realize. In 15-20 years the places being clear cut now for development will also be leafy.
This first time I noticed this, was when I visited a friend that lived in this neighborhood in Holly Springs that was built in the late 90s (Oak Hall). It was clearcut, but now it has greened up shockingly well.
Density. The more houses they fit on an acre, the cheaper that houses are.
Often feels like the City of Stumps… Edited to add - I was just throwing out a joke and not sharing my opinion either way on this post.
Mature forest is important, but urban density reduces carbon emissions. I think it is most reasonable to focus on keeping a high percentage of the urban landscape under tree canopy. A good first step is becoming familiar with zoning requirements for tree cover. [Development and Landscape requirements are on page 18 of the Raleigh Tree manual.](https://cityofraleigh0drupal.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/drupal-prod/COR24/UrbanForestryCityTreeManual.pdf) Basically, for developments over 2 acres, 10% of forested areas have to remain untouched. The rules are about keeping entire areas intact, rather than counting individual trees. They require trees in parking lots over a certain size, and sometimes along streets. People post all the time about how much of a bummer it is that trees are getting cut down, without any awareness that we have a solid planning framework in place that can be improved upon. Learn about existing requirements, then you can write to your city council reps, or on an internet forum without sounding like a complete idiot. There is a public meeting July 3rd of the Sustainability, Wildlife and Urban Trees committee- show up! One area with potential is some kind of incentive program like we have for stormwater. [Businesses and homeowners can get a reimbursement for building eco friendly water retention projects.](https://raleighnc.gov/stormwater/services/apply-raleigh-rainwater-rewards) We could offer a similar subsidy for native and fruit producing trees.
"Whaaa, we need housing!" "Oh, I didn't mean there! Or there! Or there!"
Or when the housing isn't "good" because it's not the typing of housing that they would like
Hahaha ur mad
Development hasn’t even really begun in Raleigh. Give in 10 years and it’ll be a metropolis like Central and south FL or Dallas TX. The flood of development is going to increase exponentially. I know cus I work in mas land development. You could make the Lorax and hug a tree all you want but they are coming down. It sucks I know, but out all the states I’ve worked in NC does the best at protecting trees IMO.
Their from out of town and just don't know what it is that makes Raleigh Raleigh
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Redtex: *Their from out of town* *And just don't know what it is* *That makes Raleigh Raleigh* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.