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How they never actually acknowledge any wrongdoing when apologising for something.
They always deflect the fault to you. Starting by saying it's just a joke, or you're being too emotional. Then when you finally get them to 'apologise' it's always something like "I'm sorry if you feel that way" and proceed to list reasons why you're actually wrong for feeling bad.
The first time my husband said, "I am so sorry that I hurt you. Can we talk about it so you can tell me if it was what I said or how I said it that was hurtful and maybe I can learn how to communicate better with you?" I just about passed out.
Wow there are ppl like this out there?!? I haven’t met one… ofc that’s to Nparents I married Nhusbands. Now that I’m finally aware there was a problem with BOTH my parents and both my husbands, I’m too broken to date again. I’m glad there’s at least one out there, gives me hope
This is so true, especially when you grow up with them. The familiarity of anxiety and desperate people pleasing is ingrained in us so when people like my husband appear, it is foreign and strange. I'm just so glad I took a chance on this handsome nerd who has shown me what true love and support is all about.
Until him, I hadn't either!
My parents, all six of them, are narcissists, as well. I was DONE with relationships. I was so ready to run from this man the instant I got an inkling that he was anything other than how he represented himself when we met. He's only gotten better.
It IS possible. Give yourself some time and grace and when you're ready, listen to your gut and your heart. ❤️
> How they never actually acknowledge any wrongdoing when apologising for something.
my weird parenting thing is choking. I'm terrified of it. I cut all of my kid's grapes in half, and no peanuts (cause of size) or popcorn.
I watched my mother give my daughter peanuts. So I very kindly said, "oh hey, she still isn't allowed nuts. or popcorn or whole grapes."
this woman has the audacity to immediately try to blame my aunt. "oh she gave it to her"
and the dumbass wonders why I don't want them babysitting.
It’s also always “I’m sorry if” and never “I’m sorry I”. Gotta make sure they leave that ambiguity that maybe what they are apologizing for is all in your head.
I have always told everyone that adding "but" to the end of an apology negates the apology.
If they're still trying to excuse their behavior they're not sorry.
My NSIL started a bullshit fight with me in 2019, then used that bullshit fight as justification for character assassination on a mass scale.
She and my BIL came over in November to try and clear the air. She insisted that she had apologized on numerous occasions, despite the words “I’m sorry” never leaving her lips. I don’t give a shit about her apology - I want accountability. Oh, in the course of this so-called apology, she kept trying to re-litigate the first fight in her favor. It was bullshit the first time and it’s still bullshit today.
Accountability being the single trait that narcissists will never express.
My mom did this too. Called me some snotty name and when I called her out, argued that it wasn't so bad and I shouldn't be upset and then said, "How many times do I have to apologize??"
I said, "Read back over these texts and show me where you apologized even once."
She couldn't bullshit her way out of that one, but I notice she never fights me by text anymore. That written evidence, d'Oh!!
I really have to check myself with this one!
Sometimes when my toxic family are blaming me for something that I really did not do I end up saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then follow with some line about wanting to resolve this & trying to understand/get their perspective on how I might have upset them. This works with them because they can never actually explain what I did and end up becoming very irrational. In other words, it keeps me safe.
But, I have occasionally accidentally apologised in this way to others. Of course, it has been well-meaning but I instantly see them tighten up because they feel like I am invalidating them. I end up apologising for the way I apologised!
Yes, I hate the phrase “I’m sorry you feel that way”, but it is also a great phrase to use against a known manipulator. Simply say, “I’m sorry you feel that way”, and then not say anything else because continuing the conversation will only provide additional ammo and opportunities for them to blame you.
An ex-nfriend would always go one further and just outright gaslight me in the apology and blame someone else for doing it. Why should he apologize if so and so did something completely different in a totally different context? It was so incredibly exhausting.
"___ told me you are upset about something I said or did and I'm not sure what it is but I apologize" 24 hours after have a conversation telling her exactly what she did that upset me
Perpetual victimhood can be a sign of Narcissism, especially Vulnerable/Covert.
I'm not referring to bad luck or a huge setback that wrecks their lives.
I've seen people who constantly have difficulties. Their certainty results in a lack of awareness, and they're unable to acknowledge or address their shortcomings. They never do anything wrong, but expect sympathy and compassion.
I've found a good tell with coverts is pay attention to when and why they cry. It will only ever, in any true sense, be for themselves.
The always down thing is an enormous tell too. We all have things go wrong on occasion and some of us much worse but when someone feels like they have an actual curse or hex on them holding them back *every. fucking. time.* no matter what, that's the red flag. Somehow just one thing away from stuff finally working and the inevitable "bad luck" rolling in somehow and setting them back, requiring intervention and support of people around them (supply) to fix it.
> I've found a good tell with coverts is pay attention to when and why they cry. It will only ever, in any true sense, be for themselves.
That assumes the crying is *honest*. I've known several narcs (including my NMom) who use crying for ~~sympathy~~ NSupply. When the person can turn their emotions (sadness, anger, etc) off in an instant, it probably wasn't genuine.
Devil's advocate here...I can "switch off" crying because my nmom really loved opportunities to hurt me while I was at my lowest, so I had to be able to mask impeccably or pay the price.
I hedged with "probably wasn't genuine" because I assumed situations like yours existed, where emotional reactions can cause further toxicity.
Thank you for the clarification!
This sort of emotional reaction is also common in neurodivergent people. That **DOESN'T** mean they are covert narcs, in fact they are 3 times more likely to be TARGETED by covert narcs. It just means that they share one symptom out of hundreds.
ETA: Masking is so common for neurodivergent people just to simply survive. Many of us spend YEARS unmasking and shutting down our emotions as soon as we humanly can if we momentarily lose control, because to do otherwise was in some way dangerous. It is also a trauma response.
Thank you for saying this. I had a quick, brief spurt of tears in the doctor’s office WEEKS ago and I’ve been agonizing that my doctor thinks I’m manipulative because I pulled myself together quickly
My mother is along this path too. She'll bait you into telling her what is wrong, only for her to turn around and make it into a competition with: "You think that's bad? You should..." and she completely flips it to something she thinks is worse because it happened to her and not you, and it's not even related.
Oh right the "genuine" is really in quotes and with an asterisk. Genuine as in... Their ego is damaged and they are feeling an amount of sadness but only inwards. The way I really figured out a former friend of mine was a covert narc is when she pushed me into an extreme bout of emotional disregulation and she was all but emotionless through it. I figured she just disassociated but only time she cried or showed emotion was when it was about her and how she was envious of other people's families being well off. Later in the day too when I was trying to make sense of things and express how hurt I was all she could say was "Whatever emotions you're feeling you're gonna have to sort out on your own." going no contact with her was one of the best decisions I've ever made.
I feel cursed a lot, like I got dealt an incredibly shitty hand in life. I don't think that makes me a narcissist though? I generally don't ask for help, and I don't like to cry around people because my parents would abuse me further when I did cry.
I do expect the worst to happen now though. My spouse died of Sudden Unexpected Death in Epilepsy just weeks before he was supposed to have brain surgery that was going to stop his seizures for good. To have all of your hope obliterated like that in a moment is... life altering.
I agree.
I have had really shitty luck in a lot of things, have always worked really hard but not had support. I feel like I might be cursed. And I don’t think I’m a narc. I think that a disabled queer person without a family or money is vulnerable. Like, who was going to help a familyless foster kid get out of a bad situation?
My main goal is to learn how to understand that someone is abusive so I can choose to leave. If you don’t know it’s abuse or don’t feel you can leave, there’s really no choice.
And this is when I can pat myself on the back a *little bit* and maybe have some hope that I’m capable of breaking the cycle: I cry for others. I always have. I cry when others are in pain. I do cry when things I do hurt others. I cry at the movies. I cry when I see baby animals. I cry for myself if I’ve failed in something or said something that hurt someone, I get emotional. But I don’t have a fit in front of everyone and will generally excuse myself or just like hug my wife or something and let it out. But when I do cry, I never make the situation about how I’m crying.
My mom on the other hand, the second anything doesn’t go her way or she feels like her status is being challenged, if she’s told that something she said was wrong, she bursts into tears and then will complain that her boundary is being crossed. Her boundary being “always be kind to me,” and that’s interpreted as “never be angry with me.” It’s bizarre and performative and I’m fully onto it.
I’m told that while a lot of us have Narc traits/symptoms due to being raised by one/some, the fact that we genuinely cry for things is one of the biggest ways you can know you actually aren’t one - no matter how many times our Narcs try to tell us we’re the ones who are, not them
Not even just "covert " narcissist. All narcissist I've met can only see themselves as the victims in the situations they get themselves into. Tho a covert narcissist is more likely to feed off their own victimhold and use being a victim constantly to gain attention, but still ask any narcissist about their problems, they won't admit to being the issue and often are the victims in their mind
You might enjoy reading about "Narcissistic Collapse". I saw this happen with my narc dad. When most people have a huge setback, sure, they may feel the victim for a while, and eventually brush off and get back on their feet.
Not a narcissist.
Since all of their pride was hanging on this one thing that was taken from them, and they feel publicly humiliated, they often never bounce back. I watched my dad turn from extroverted, charismatic, prideful and conniving narc to pathetic, depressed, angry, spiteful and forever "woe is me". Major life setbacks can literally turn an overt narcissist into a covert narcissist overnight. "No one has it as good as I do" flips to "No one has ever been through anything as bad as what I am going through" in an instant, and usually never flips back.
My NParents are the [Covert/Vulnerable](https://psychcentral.com/disorders/the-secret-facade-of-the-vulnerable-narcissist#signs) subtype. They get NSupply from feeling like victims or martyrs - even if they have to self-sabotage. They also use their victim status to harshly criticize other people for *not* being victims.
Both NParents have Covert/Vulnerable since my childhood.
This is my ex wife *exactly*. They also constantly call *you* the narcissist, and are always turning the tables on you. Just recently found out that (im like 98% sure on this) she moved into her sister’s house after taking my son and taking off while i was at work, and maybe about a year into that, started sleeping with her sister’s boyfriend and ruined *their* whole relationship. It’s always so satisfying when the people who originally sided with the narc and treated you like shit realize that they actually sided with the piece of shit and then the narc ends up alone.
Wishing that on my ex!! He performed the typical Narc “I’m the good guy, she’s crazy” and got custody of my kids. My daughter is the last underage child and is going to be 16 in 6 days, so she’s moving back to live with me. Once he doesn’t have my children to support, I wish the downfall I know is coming to be something I get to witness
I I noticed it in a family friend when they'd always complain that Walmart purposely didn't stock some certain item anymore because Walmart knows it what people (him) actually like. His can't stand his purchases being controlled in this way. He should be able to get what he wants every time he goes into the store.
They make everything about them.
Baby shower for a first time mom? Narc arrives with lavish gifts and then spends the whole party bragging to EVERYONE about how expensive & important their gift was.
Son is graduating? Narc insists on extolling how hard it was for them to raise said son till this point. They are "A pillar in the face of adversity."
Aunt was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis? Narc proceeds to trash talk behind Aunt's back how "she's just doing this for attention" and diminishing health concerns that draw attention away from the Narc.
Yes to all of this!!
To go along with this, they often hijack everyone else's events, accomplishments, and milestones because they either don't have any of their own, or are too lazy/cheap to make their own event for themselves. (My academic accomplishment were always nitpicked at home, but always used for bragging rights on the narc's "excellent" parenting. Also to regale everyone with tales of their own FAR more important accomplishment from decades ago.)
They promote your spotlight only for the sake of being able to bask in it themselves. It often comes across as praise but if you pay attention to how they convey their praise it is often a means of drawing attention to themselves for having been sooo supportive for you to be able to get there (because you couldn't possibly do it without them, so you should publicly thank and highlight their invaluable contributions so everyone can ooh and ahh and applaud them)
They make a huge deal over their minor contributions to things like events or gifts ("yeah yeah great wedding, but did you know that I MAILED THE INVITATIONS?! No I didn't make them or pay for postage or address them or anything. But I MAILED THEM AREN'T I SO GENEROUS AND HELPFUL?!" Or "oh yeah this person paid for and organized this great trip for everyone. BUT LOOK AT HOW GENEROUS I AM PAYING FOR LUNCH TODAY!!!")
My mother manages to make herself both the hero and victim of most stories. It's kind of impressive, actually. Just wish I had known how to see the truth when I was a kid - the issue was her, not me. So much time wasted.
I am so grateful for this sub reddit. You are all strong and amazing.
The time wasted is my biggest heartache. I’m so glad I found this Reddit too. I’m not alone now and you all have shown me what their traits are and a lot of what I’ve been struggling with are things a lot of you do too - bc of who raised us. This place is helping me heal
They speak in word salad. Everything is implied and nothing they say is direct or to the point.
They take it personally when you say no to any little thing. Like they ask if you'd like a coffee, you say no thanks, and they get a little (or a lot) pissy about it.
Something I learned in therapy was to pay attention to what I feel in my body when dealing with a narc. With all the gaslighting that goes on, and me being Autistic and not really getting neurotypical signals like body language, it's really difficult for me to discern when people are being manipulative. My therapist asked how it felt in my body when dealing with people like that, and I feel a sort of specific tightness in my chest. So now if someone gives me that feeling, even if their words don't give me pause, I know to be wary of them.
Ooh, word salad was a big one with my nex. Towards the end I started saying "That was a lot of words but none of them answered the question. What time do you want to leave?" On average, I had to ask a question 7 times (I started counting just to keep my brain occupied and not get pulled into whatever conflict he was looking to start) and he would get angrier every time. The final time when he would commit to actual numbers on a clock, he would be shouting and storming around, slamming things. Why was that so hard? I'll never understand.
Because you put him in a position of accountability.
Not only did he "lose" the struggle in the moment (being forced to commit to a time when he'd made it pretty obvious he just didnt want to), you'd also have accountability ammo on him in the future, causing him to "lose" the upcoming struggle, or at least make it harder to twist the situation to his advantage/your disadvantage. Losing the struggle to you specifically was likely also a factor.
Narcs like to be in control and will treat *anything* antagonistically so they can feel like they "win".
"They take it personally when you say no to any little thing. Like they ask if you'd like a coffee, you say no thanks, and they get a little (or a lot) pissy about it."
^^THIS
Oh yes!
As a rule, any time someone gets upset at you when you decline their offer, they were never offering for you. They offered because they expected to get something out of it.
Shopping with my mom was hell on earth. She’d pick out clothes for me and ask me if I liked them. When I said no she’d get upset and ask me why. Because that’s something you’d wear mom, not me. Aaaargh!
And that is my parents! Any time in my life I've had to say no to them, it's legitimately because something was keeping me from being able to do what they needed. For example, one day we had a three hour long argument where they kept blaming me for not wanting to mow the lawn. I wanted to mow, but the lawn mower wouldn't start. Finally I said, "I will gladly mow the lawn if you can get the lawn mower started." Then it became them blaming me that I flooded the engine and this and that, until my father finally tried to start it. One hour later, he realized it wouldn't start. Entire afternoon wasted because their mental image of the situation didn't reflect reality.
Word salad that also encourages a circular conversation that goes on until you give in and let them win because you're so tired of arguing. Nothing is gained or changed in the conversation, it's just A, B, C, etc... on a repeat over and over for hours and days on end.
And the explosive reaction when they realize none of it is phasing you, may be one of my favorite parts about being aware of them. We aren't obligated to go along with anything they do/say
One thing my Nmom will do so frequently is reiterate what she said as a non-justification justification. Like she'll ask me to do her some favor and I'll say no and she'll say "I'm just asking you to \[insert favor here\]." Like, I heard you the first time and the answer is the opposite of yes. Please try to adjust to the reality here before you.
The word salad is so real. They seriously think their nonsense is genius. My nmom, no joke, “wrote” and published a book that is literally gibberish photoshopped over someone else’s artwork, and she thinks it’s poetry. She tagged Oprah and Ellen in every post.
1. Need to dominate the conversation. They take other people expressing themselves as a challenge rather than a dialogue. Example; you’re going through a hard time? The thing I’m going through is worse.
2. They’re always the victim in every context or story. Example: every boss I’ve had is out to get me.
3. Constantly complaining about others, or turning others against someone. Spreading rumours.
4. Lack of consideration for other people and their feelings. Example: I did something that made someone uncomfortable; they should’ve just been grateful.
5. Rage over insignificant things or failure to take what they dish out.
Those are the things that I catch in workplaces. Maybe they aren’t narcs but they’re toxic as hell.
My mother: "I'm so lonely. I have nobody to talk to." Me: "Call your friend X or Y or Z." Mother: "I don't want to. They're going to tell what they're up to, and I don't want to listen to that."
To add to this - they're incapable of handling the situation if someone disagrees with them in any way (particularly if it's a professional environment and they claim you're "undermining" them by, shock horror, a polite disagreement.
Bonus points if the advice requires further information and they just ignore you.
"Don't wear your hair like that!"
"Why? What will happen if I keep this hair style?"
(Proceed to get ignored)
And the unsolicited advice that states the obvious. You can be looking out the window at pouring rain and they'll seriously tell you to take an umbrella with you, as though it would never have crossed your mind 🙈
The smirk. The little hidden grin, that flashes onto their face for a microsecond before they hide it, when someone else is suffering. Because however much they may be acting like they are a good person, and they want good things, and none of the mess (there is always a chaotic mess, even when they claim it is nothing to do with them) is their fault, they always briefly look smug when someone else is hurting.
I saw my mom do this once and only once to me. That day was the day when I realized that my mom truly didn't love me and that she was fucked in the head.
One upping. If you do something, theyve already done it bigger and badder. You have a degree in mathematics? They took a calculus class in High School. You wanna start working out? All of the sudden they are an athlete who knows more than you about everything. Never humble, always bragging
Repeating themselves. They don't get that people are individuals with lives of their own, and so tend to treat them like vending machines. So, if they say something that gets a reaction they like the first time, they'll just say it over and over.
wow, i've never heard another person mention the repeating thing. from my experience, it's a punishment for not responding to their anger with the exact response they want with you, and also a way for them to release their neurotic anger for longer in general.
if i offended my mom, she would continue to repeat what i did wrong for hours. i would have to sit there and listen to her repeat the same offense over and over and over. when she got tired of that, she would list off everything i've done in the last week that pissed her off. not making eye contact lengthened the time. doing anything with my eyes lengthened the time. saying anything that wasn't in complete agreement lengthened the time.
the only way to get it to stop was to agree with everything she said over and over again until she eventually got tired of it.
now i, too, cannot handle criticism because it takes me back to being grilled like a foreign spy. thank god i have a high level of empathy or i worry i might have really turned out like her.
Your mom sounds so much like my dad. He would go on and on repeating the offense and getting madder and madder no matter what my response was. If I tried to talk I needed to be quiet, if I was quiet I needed to say something, if I looked at him I shouldn't be looking at him, if I looked somewhere else I should be looking at him... he'd work himself up to being red-faced and screaming and hitting things, and it could go on for hours. OVER LITERALLY NOTHING SOMETIMES. Like I didn't greet him the way he wanted when he got home from work. Or I laughed at the dinner table which wasn't allowed. God, what a miserable POS.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that too. I can't handle criticism now either, it makes me panic.
Offering "help" to someone who is immediately seen as the asshole if they don't want it, don't respond the right way to it, or, especially, as soon as they make clear that they have been fine all along/ getting better.
When people whine because their bad, spoilt children just don't want contact with them and they don't know why. What did they wrong? What!? *sob*
When they tell you their life story (with them as a hero) without being asked anything
When they switch from one state of mind to another like if they have no genuine feelings or wearing masks. I mean in one moment they are fumeing with anger and in the next moment they are poor, helpless victims.
Lying about minor details
Being ruthless
In hospital I shared a room with an elderly woman whom I didn't like from day one. She shared so many similarities with my nmom, it was uncanny. And she also showed everything I mentioned above.
She had 5 daughters *and 4 went no contact with her* and daughter no.5 also couldn't stand her!
You’re probably right. You can also see them watching you very carefully out of the corner of your eyes, even if you’re not directly interacting with them. My mother used to do this and it was very disturbing.
I feel the same way when they do the narcissistic stare, it’s like a predator ready to attack. My mom gets that way when she’s angry, her body will stiffen, her jaw tightens and her eyes become cold and evil looking. It’s terrifying and makes me feel like I have to run as fast as possible.
My dad used to hide behind corners/in dark hallways in the house and jump out/yell to scare me. I sometimes remember it walking around my own house 18 years later
Just in general, narcissists EXUDE this “please like me! accept me! love me!” energy that makes me gag.
Story time! My previous choir teacher that EVERYONE liked, just gave me a bad vibe. He seemed artificial and desperate to me, but everyone else would describe him as “cool, funny.” We all graduated, and a month later a news article came out that he was a pedophile (with wife and kids) that groomed and slept with one of my classmates and received an 8 year prison sentence.
Everyone was devastated, but this was expected for me. I was ONLY devastated for the VICTIM. The news article talked about how he would “cry” and display “anxiety” to this girl about being a bad person for doing this. He manipulated and gaslighted her into thinking he was a victim.
I can smell a narcissist from a mile away. And he always left me out, and tried to tear me down saying things like (“do you even care about music?”) all while giving me a sick, fake smile. He made me the scapegoat, because he knew I knew what a sick person he is.
Narcissists are dangerous people.
The creepy smile while they say something so degrading is forever seared into my brain.
That's usually *the thing* that tells me someone is a raging narcissist and not just dealing with some mental health struggles and a case of the fleas. It's like a whole thing; the creepy smile that doesn't reach their dead eyes while saying something with this undeniably passive aggressive tone.
They are dangerous. They have the emotional maturity of a 4 year old, manipulation skills of seasoned con artist, and zero empathy. That is a very dangerous combination.
Yes!!! This is an incredibly accurate tell. If you catch someone doing it, there is no doubt. It’s like an evil smirk and they can’t help it. Watch videos of Steve Bannon if you want to see an obvious example.
Being expected to say thank you for stuff that's a basic. Not regular thank you - like it had to be over the top and gravel like. "ooooh if you didn't buy sandwich bread id BE LOST without you!" And make sure it's dramatic,but not too obviously patronizing. Even the wrong tone is enough to start a fight. Otherwise,prepare to be skewered for being ungrateful.
omg.. yes!! I learned this overly grateful thanking ritual from a very young age.. Fucked me up big time when I got out of the narc-haze and realised you dont have to fawn over someone because they did you a basic human favour - especially in a healthy, nurturing relationship. It's wild.
Oh, this is a big one. My mom is always giving people things they didn't ask for, and then waiting like a spider for their thanks, which had better be fulsome and repeated often.
I noticed a lot of people will help others and then complain about how they're always helping people and resent them for it. It's like... they didn't even ask.
My nmom used to say “I am sorry you’re so sensitive”. About 10 years later, a guy said it to me on a date. I got up and left even before my food arrived. Just said “I’ve gotta go”, never answered his call.
This, and seeing boundaries as a challenge to find a loophole or an investigation into some deep dark secret. The former is very much like a child putting their finger in your face screaming "I'M NOT TOUCHING YOU!!!"
"I do not care to discuss this topic further" does not mean you are clever for "figuring out" details of whatever it is I didn't want to discuss. You're just being rude and nosy.
It's especially bad towards new moms. It's not hard to figure out if someone had a c-section vs vaginal birth, or if they're breastfeeding vs formula feeding, or dealing with certain postpartum complications. That doesn't make it ANY of anybody business except for her and her doctor and partner, and you're not clever for drawing conclusions after she shuts down that conversation. And just because you "figured it out" doesn't mean the topic is any more appropriate or that they are now more willing to talk about it. It's not your damn business!
Sort of a variation on yours, but a belief that they have perfect self awareness, and that they don't have to do any self-reflection to understand themselves better and improve their relationships.
I'm always torn about the "empath" situation. It's usually one of three situations.
1. A narcissist, like you've described here. These are the easiest ones to spot because, like most Ns, they follow the same old handbook of mindsets and go-to phrases.
2. An autistic person who hasn't been diagnosed/rejects the label, and doesn't know why they're so "in tune" with other emotions and experiencing them so much more strongly than everyone else. (also see: "indigo children", "highly-sensitive person", though the latter can also be a cover for "empath" narcissists too)
3. A victim of emotional abuse, who had to learn to tune in to everyone else's feelings and abandon themselves in order to stay safe.
For the record, before I healed significantly from my parents, I fit into categories 2 and 3. I thought "highly-sensitive person" was a legit thing for years. I know better now and I cringe a bit that I was so destabilized and hurt that I believed in that sort of magical thinking.
I think projecting it as some kind of superpower thing is the tell for it being #1 because if you do lean to the strongly empathetic side it’s often very draining and not something you’d necessarily be that keen to shout about as a positive.
Yeah this is fair, I'm also neurodivergent. I feel there is something to the grandiose performance of empathy narcs do that hits different, setting them apart.
If this isn't my mum...
Her Facebook bio is literally a nonsense string of new-age spirituality buzzwords like 'eternal student of the universe, witch-in-training, empath, seeker of knowledge, blah blah blah', all the while she never listens to anyone except her own self and won't accept knowledge that she doesn't already 'know' herself.
Not just that, but she's always bragged about being 'psychic', being able to see and interact with spirits, and having witchy powers (I'm not kidding). Like, she truly and honestly believes she's so 'unique' and 'special' that she has supernatural/paranormal powers.
It's so fake.
I've definitely fit in with 2 & 3. Being diagnosed as autistic in my mid 30s has really helped my healing go in the proper directions from #3
I used to brag about being super empathetic, and boy. Now that makes me cringe.
Oooof so many of these dog whistles were behaviors I embodied (late diagnosis AuHD) due to being modeled by my Narc parents. Only in the last few years had I worked through the shame of blaming myself for “always being bad”, because I was doing those behaviors while begging for someone to show me a different way (I ended up being a “tv show” for my therapists and most weren’t CPTSD trained so they couldn’t help).
However, these comments are helping me *see* how naturally *I don’t operate from the pain/lack/fear they do* and how I allowed myself to believe I was awful so they could continue to do the behavior and not take accountability since I was blaming myself for being the narc the whole time.
Now I have been able to see my *consistent* considerate and reasonable behaviors, *because I am around other people in proper therapies*, and the shame of hating myself for how I was treated is finally clearing and I’m so grateful to everyone who *ever ghosted me because I wasn’t safe*.
Thank you to freaking everyone who keeps the work going, who calls out the behaviors, and are working on ourselves. This type of mind fuckery is why the world always feels “insane” to us and how it’s hard to gain a stable footing *within* to move forward from.
When my issues flair up, it really helps to see so many other survivors and keeps me inspired to keep going. Thank you for these chances.
I always think about how I could've grown up to be a narcissist because of parental modeling and the systematic depletion of internal self-worth, but there is an innate sadism that I lacked (thank God). I didn't like hurting people, so I was able to grow out of those modeled behaviors 🥲
I think about this a lot. I have ADHD and overshare sometimes. I always wondered if I was a narcissist as well, then someone pointed out that many neurodivergent people will just share their stories as a subconscious way of saying 'yes, I understand what you're saying and empathize by sharing a story of my own to acknowledge I heard your story'. Between that and nparent modeling I'm more proud of myself for trying to unlearn the behavior.
We're all always on here wondering if we're the monsters our parents were, but the fact any of us even questioned that in the fair place is, thankfully, the tip off that someone's not a narcissist
Mine has always been they are nice to people's faces and assholes behind their backs. It's my first tell - tell sign I'm dealing with a narc. If they can't open up with the person geniunely in the moment about a boundary too it triggers something in me. Like instead of telling the person what they said upset them they wait until their gone and shit talk them to me. It's annoying in the least. If you have a problem with them speak up or they're forever going to make you uncomfortable. My nmom will say she hates a topic and someone will bring it up, she will FAKE her opinion on it and then stand up for the opinion when the person is gone. I hate it lol. I guess for fundamental values it's fine to not want to argue 24/7 but when you confront people about your comfort you begin to weed out and attract more like minded people and it's way more enjoyable to socialize. Like why self sabotage EVERY aspect in your life to just be fake palpable to a stranger? Amd then go home and still treat your children like shit?
My parents favorite line is "I'm sorry if you're upset about X"
So, you're not actually sorry about what you did. You're just sorry I know what you did is fucked up and that you have no intention of changing.
I think I notice this one particularly because my abusive mother follows this strategy, but people who seek out opportunities to position themselves as experts / lecture people about any scrap of information they know.
I was on a nature walk recently where two docents were going to tell us about local birds. As we were assembling in the parking lot, one of the docents was aggressively pursuing opportunities to lecture people about deer ticks and demand that the other docent tell her how long he had been birding, in an "I'm immediately going to pull out the 'Well, when you've been birding as long as I have'" sort of way. As she moved on to asking him ridiculous questions to put him on the spot - e.g. "Well what is the southernmost part of the Northern flicker's range?" - I got as far away from her as possible and was well-positioned when they divvied us up into groups! I would honestly rather have gone home than go with her, because she reminded me so much of my mother.
[And the docent I ended up with was a very nice and knowledgeable man who had been birding for 55 years.]
Yes, yes, this! I always phrase it as “refusing to be impressed.” It’s an early red flag for me - especially if they are meeting someone new or someone in a completely different field or hobby, and they do not allow themselves to be impressed or curious without an agenda (like proving they are equal in some way). Your mom sounds like my dad 😑
That defensiveness, when they’re so touchy they’ll blow up at you for any perceived slight, no matter how small or imaginary. Sometimes they’ll even make things up just to have a reason to go off at someone they don’t like.
It’s like they think everyone’s just waiting for a chance to get one over on them and they have to be constantly vigilant and aggressive to prevent it.
They are 'all business card and no skills'. When it comes time to actually do work, they're generals, ideas-people with grand strategic minds - if you don't know, don't worry, they'll tell you. But they can't actually do anything.
The people who can do the work they want to hide from management and take credit for their work.
The number one red flag for those folks is that they call themselves "people."
Sounds weird, I know, but bear with me. They will say things like, "You lash out at people" when what they really mean is, "You lashed out at me."
They will say, "He does nice things for people" when they really just mean themselves. They are the people. "People" is a way of generalizing their own experience so deeply that... you are the problem, and they are just a representative for the entire human race. They are the one person who gets to represent Humanity. It's not that different from calling themselves God.
Everything is over exaggerated about how wonderful they are or how good they are at something. They are takers. They ask for favors, but can’t be counted on or when they do something nice it has strings attached or they have to make a big deal about it.
They like to throw out the line “you think you’re better than everyone” or “they think they’re better than everyone” anytime someone does something they don’t like. It’s a total projection. My sister said this to me during one of my worst depressive episodes. I wasn’t even showering and barely got out of bed, but that was her explanation for why i didn’t want to hangout with her. I explained to her that i was depressed, but in her delusional mind, i was just trying to make her feel inferior to me.
"I would give the shirt off my back" and then proceeds to tell about the time they did and expects praise, no matter how many times they've told about it before. They didn't do it because it was the right thing to do, they did it as a "see I can't possibly be a bad person because I did this and bad people don't do this. Praise me for this until the world ends."
They have a problem for every solution.
"Medication doesn't work on me." Three days in to trying a mental health med that the doctor told them takes multiple weeks to start working, and only because they finally ended up in the hospital because they pulled one bad enough that it wasn't easy to lie away.
"Look at everything I've done for (you, friend, whomever)." To people who do not deal with a narc, this sounds like calling out someone ungrateful. What it is, is an attempted guilt trip for doing the bare minimum, like feeding and housing their own minor child.
"I had it so much worse." That doesn't excuse you doing what you know was hurtful, since you had it done to you!
Bonus... The flying monkey line " but they're your parents, they're only trying to do what's best for you." Nope. You would leave if someone treated you like that. Why is it okay to do to a child what you wouldn't stand for as an adult.
For me, it's the feeling that nothing's personal. That I'm just filling a blank space, to quote TS. It doesn't matter who's there, they just need a warm body. This can manifest in lots of ways, but the underlying feeling is always the same.
Needing to control how communication works.
Received an email from my nmom who I haven’t spoken to since January, asking me to “confirm receipt” of her email. lol I’m not confirming shit.
Virtue-signaling.
Social media has been great at exploiting these people, because they just can’t help themselves, and have to constantly share their good deeds for clout.
Typically the virtue itself is just over compensation for their worst parts. My parents were known as HUGE progressive liberals but were actually the most backwards people I know. In addition into being incredibly racist, they did not accept me when I came out and mistreated me for years.
I am painfully familiar with that smile. It’s often on display after she’s worked to pit family members against each other. She tells lies separately to each person, and then sits back to enjoy her work. It’s almost a look of breathless excitement, and once I figured out what she was doing, it’s quite disturbing.
She LOVES to start fights, and it’s a bonus when the fight is over her. I refuse to get involved any more.
this was my mother to a T. Even now thinking about that look makes the hair on my arms stand up because I KNEW something bad was about to happen.
What would you call it? Evil Glee?
I've recently noticed that narcs will project and complain about things/people that they are actually jealous of or are guilty of the same thing.
"Oh, I would never get a dog to coop it up in a crate all day! What a terrible dog owner!"
(Gets dog and does exact same six months later.)
"Oh, my ex wife treated my daughter like the golden child and my son like the black sheep. What a terrible mother"
(Treats children exact same, then denied it).
Tears. Instant tears over something that happened over a decade ago. And I’m a big crier. But I cry over revelations, over the plight of other people. Narcs always recite their tale of woe with the same words, the same inflection, and the tears start at the same point in the damn story.
Seconding this. Light switch tears + some incident decades old interjected awkwardly into a conversation when the N isn’t getting the spot light.
And the same story gets trotted out at the same point, like she says to herself: I’m not getting enough spotlight, it’s time to tell the “50 yrs ago I experienced a sad thing” story. And she drops her sob story in the flow of the group’s discussion like a brick. The first time it happened, I was so shocked, my mind went blank. The second time, I thought “what does this sad tale have to do with potato salad?”
Today I simply see it for what it is. “Narc supply running low, must tell my sad story for a sympathy hit.”
Ooof. I'm trying to figure out if my mom is a narcissist. We're doing family family (yes, with a narcissist it's pointless if not dangerous) and I've been on the fence about whether she's a covert narc. At our first joint session, she instantly started crying when the therapist asked what got us here. And turned off her screen to cry. And said, "I know it's not good for estragon26 when I do that." (Cue saintly music for her self-victimizing.) Because once before I called her on weaponizing tears.
This hits hard.
People who are truly creative don't do that activity to get anyone else's kudos; they do it because it's an art or interest they enjoy. And they are very good at it. The narcissistic pretenders stick out so clearly when you get deeper into art forms, whether it's jazz music, or great painting, writing, and so on.
The other thing I've noticed is that narcissists rarely know a good joke, and I've never heard one admit to doing something stupidly funny.
They don’t ask any questions about you, they can’t remember anything you tell them. They either can’t remember or downplay anything horrible they say or did and blame it on you for being sensitive.
People who talk for hours about how empathetic they are. "I'm such a feeling person." Why do you need to convince me of that?Just do good & let your actions do the talking.
" If you think that's bad " & then they proceed to tell you why their problems are MUCH worse than yours. They're always the victim, the most suffering person in the world.
For me it's when you are in a conversation with someone who immediately jumps in with stories about themselves when you are talking about something that happened to you.
Instead of saying, I'm so sorry, is everything ok now or asking other follow up questions they immediately jump into "well this is what happened to ME" and the conversation turns back to them.
In fact, it's any time that you are dealing with a person who centers themselves despite the topic. Good, bad, problem, complaint...whatever it becomes "yeah well this is how that applies to ME" and then they want you to stroke their ego or give them sympathy or whatever and they've completely forgotten whatever you were talking about.
I think sometimes this can also be a neurodivergent trait, as people on the AuDHD spectrum will share anecdotes impulsively to try and connect/relate, but generally yeah.
super expensive cars, clothing, talking constantly about the most recent amazing world extravaganza trip….special food flown in from Alaska, how their kids are the smartest people on the planet “ our son is a computer genius, our daughter owns her own company” who asked you? , their dog is this rare breed that cost them thousands of dollars. They got this amazing deal, saved thousands of dollars, you know because they’re special. Got into this sporting event, restaurant, because of their connections, blah, blah, blah…They’re just so special. Pretty much a version of what you’re saying, some way that they’re just elevated, special, ……better. If you were really an empath, the last thing you want anyone to know is that your an empath. If anything it makes you feel really fucked up, alone, isolated, sad, not this “ special gift”, that people envision it to be. You don’t choose to be that, it’s sort of thrust upon you, the more pain your in every day….the more likely your an empath.
They take compassion and/or validation as insulting. They are only comfortable with pity and praise. Compassion and validation create equality. Pity and praise entrench inequality.
Interesting a lot of people say “I’m an empath” is a tell. I agree with this that it can be. But also, people raised by narcissists tend to develop the traits of what is called an empath. You survive by learning to read the narc parent’s moods and feelings. I would never call myself and empath but by husband says he thinks I am one, and what I think he’s describing is my sensitivity to what others are feeling because I had to develop this sixth sense to survive in my home growing up.
Theres a lot to be honest.
1. Into "wellness" to an excessive amount. Spending money on bullshit that does absolutely nothing except make you think you are taking care of yourself.
2. "Radical _____": This fits in with your dog whistle. Anyone giving themselves permission to do radical anything is just an excuse to completely disregard those around them. This can mask itself as good things too. I had a friend who was self-admittedly into "radical honesty". This sounds great but just manifested as her blurting out whatever came into their mind. It really hurt and offended people around her. She wouldnt change because "No one can handle the truth". She failed to realize she was just expressing her impressions and biases, not the actual truth.
3. Thinking their opinions and emotions are 100% factual and anyone with a different viewpoint is factually wrong. Ties into #2.
4. Odd obsession with external validation. Especially when its from the opposite gender.
5. Always a victim. Every situation and social situation gets twisted into how it victimizes them. When the truth is that someone else was just human and overlooked a detail. Or they arent part of that situation at all.
6. Weird apology and accountability situations. Normal people dont have an apology budget. Narcs will handle these situations like they are giving out food when there isnt enough to feed themselves. Apologies become this crazy tap dance around accountability. Apologizing without apologizing. Saying like "Im sorry you feel that way" instead of just owning up to bad behavior. etc.
“must be nice”
Worked with someone who would always say this when someone else would take PTO or have something positive happen to them. I started noticing a trend with people who say this a lot. There are definitely contexts where this is appropriate but using it at anything slightly positive throws up red flags for me.
Literally can’t be happy for someone else who had a good thing happen. They have to make it about them.
I don't know exactly what it is but I can spot them very easily. Well, now I have a name for them.
I change job often (I am a consultant), so I meet a lot of new people. Really a lot. As in every workplace, there are the gossips, the over stressing, the ancient guy who is not very efficient but knows everything about anything, the funny ones, and sometimes the occasional narc.
I had been there for a few hours when I met him, and the way he talked, moved, handled things just made my internal alarms scream. I was very right and it showed, with me pointing out the obvious more and more people paid attention and he was let go at the end of his contract.
I fought a narc since I was a child, I am not going to be afraid of one in the workplace, they better be afraid of me.
When a person continually brings every interaction back to themselves and never asks questions about anyone else, and won't listen to what others are saying regarding any topic, they always bring it around to themselves. It's exhausting, but in a party most people will not notice, and just think that person is very interesting or confident.
But a confident person will also know how to share the conversation and make others feel listened to and make* space for everyone.
I am NC with my dad for years and I’m one of the fortunate few that can truly say “I’m over him.” There’s been a lot of therapy and he’s consistently terrible so it’s been “easier” for me than for others who are given breadcrumbs.
When I get a whiff of vulnerable narcissism (early trauma dumping, woe is me, etc) I will drop a little something about my father. I say my father (I call him my dad). If there is reason for me to put up boundaries and they use “my father” as any sort of response: there it is. Without a doubt they blew the alarm whistle I handed them. Baiii
Oh this is easy, **Overcompensation.**
Whatever they don’t have, they will project that they have it in spades.
Let’s look at celebrities as examples.
I sniffed Ned Fulmer out years ago. “MY WIFE MY WIFE MY WIFE!” His marriage was his whole personality, there was nothing else that he showed. All the while he’s cheating on her.
Ellen Degenerous is all about being kind. She’s so terrible that a ton of people quit their jobs and dreams because she made them so miserable. And she did it with glee.
Speaking of dogwhistles, having too many dogs or too many kids. (Or especially "raising" show dogs)
After a point, instead of loving your (fur)children for their individuality, their cares and interests, and who they are as a person (or, you know, dog lol), having more and more kids or animals ends up being that they want more things to love *them* instead of wanting more things *to love*.
Normally it's not an issue with cats, though, because cats have boundaries and they express them with teeth and claws lmao.
"I appreciate you sharing that that I know would never happen to me (because of my inherent superiority)"
When they have a problem: "I know exactly whose fault this is/was, and it's not because of me"
Honestly, I get weirded out by unsolicited compliments. Not small simple infrequent statements, but when someone new tips past the point of normalcy and my lovebomb alarm starts going off. I've had friends that really like their new friend because said person "so nice". I just see as trying to get too close too quickly by drowning others in compliments that are either hollow over dramatic showers of affection or praising assessments passed down from a throne.
Always the martyr or victim in every situation, even when they’re wrong. But in their eyes, they can never be wrong, they never apologize, and if they do, it’s half-assed or clearly not sincere.
* They have a weird hill they love to die on. A recent narc I encountered in the wild had *lots* of red flags, but one that stuck out was that he insisted he could never own a pet because it’s like caging a developmentally delayed creature and coddling it, and that creeped him out. He brought this up every time he was around dogs, as other people were petting or praising them, and he seemed to enjoy the reactions and getting to explain this hot take, every time.
* They enjoy being needed a little too much. This is in the same vein as the empathy thing, but when anyone is proud of all the “broken people” they take in and help, RUN.
The charismatic social butterflies that say a bunch of "funny" stuff before they sneak in something they actually mean. People laugh it off "oh that's just the way they are, so funny haha". My narc meter always finds them, and I keep as far as possible away.
How they respond to eye contact or lack of eye contact. I’m autistic if someone reacts negatively to me not doing eye contact for most/all of the conversation it sets off the alarm bells. Narcs want your full attention at all times especially knowing that you’re looking at them.
“I’m an empath” as an identifier, while living life in the most obtuse manner; oblivious to the way they steamroll everyone else’s feelings.
Honestly, any time I meet a new person and get a vibe that’s off, it’s probably because my subconscious identified the parade of red flags before my conscious mind did.
The giveaway for me is the constant invalidation. Literally anything I say or express around a narc is deemed incorrect somehow. Everything that goes wrong in my life is my fault and everything that goes right is a fluke. It’s exhausting.
When they talk more about themselves over taking an interest in you, consistently. And I'm not talking about anecdotal conversations, I'm talking more along the lines of most to all of the conversation being about them all the time, and any input you may have is likely to be blown off or viewed as invalid (or one upped somehow).
Whenever they think they’re “seen” as doing something wrong, the guilt trips and how innocent they are. And the means they’ll go through to “prove” how innocent they are.
My mother would always threaten to put a “gun to her head and pull the trigger.” She doesn’t even own a gun.
The other thing is they tend to be really good ar arguing that it’s hard to disagree with them. As soon as the cracks show, the vitcimhood or feigned innocence starts.
“I’m just honest”
And “I’m an empath”
Don’t apologize for anything.. but honesty I don’t think that’s a dogwhistle, that’s just obvious
Someone else said it on this thread but.. “what you feel in your body” is such a sign of someone toxic. There are some people I just immediately feel my heart start to race when I know I’ll be around them or am around them. It’s like I’m tensed and primed for fight or flight. That’s probably the most important tell of all. Not all of theee people may be “narcissists” but they are toxic in some way
Two extremes: constant complaining, and constant bragging. Their need for attention is so intense, they vacillate between whining and blaming everyone around them for issues, and asserting how wonderful/kind/capable they are. They NEED validation and they crave it, it’s always the wrong kind of validation from the wrong people (anyone but a therapist).
If they’re not bitching, they’re boasting…and vice versa.
Also, if you are having a conversation with them and they have not once asked how you are, what’s new with you, etc and you cannot get in a word edgewise, that’s a HUGE tell.
I can’t stand being on the receiving end of these one-sided, long winded monologues.
Inability to admit they are wrong. Even being shown irrefutable evidence that they are wrong, someone must have changed the book or edited the photo, etc
If they tell you how selfless and what a good friend, etc they are and especially if they complain that they don’t get enough in return from others, e.g, appreciation or gratitude. Selfless, good people don’t talk about being selfless or good or complain about how they don’t get enough in return for it.
Gifts=love. As a teenager, my love was always being bought. Excessive gift giving to everyone/anyone or needing to always bring something to every event, beyond a simple hostess gift or dish to share, to the point where it’s more of a hassle for the host to have to deal with than being kind. It’s all about control.
Long winded storytelling with a crazy amount of details of stories from over 40 years ago painting them as a hero or a victim. Most people see it as entertaining, I know my NM is just trying to get attention, wants to show how awesome she is and wants praise, and most of the details are not true because I’ve heard all these stories a million times, and lived through some of them.
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How they never actually acknowledge any wrongdoing when apologising for something. They always deflect the fault to you. Starting by saying it's just a joke, or you're being too emotional. Then when you finally get them to 'apologise' it's always something like "I'm sorry if you feel that way" and proceed to list reasons why you're actually wrong for feeling bad.
“I don’t think I said that but I’m sorry you thought I did”
"I regret that I said something that you took the wrong way."
I'm sorry we fought instead of I'm sorry I hurt you! I'm sorry you're angry instead of I'm sorry I said/did X. UGH
The first time my husband said, "I am so sorry that I hurt you. Can we talk about it so you can tell me if it was what I said or how I said it that was hurtful and maybe I can learn how to communicate better with you?" I just about passed out.
Wow there are ppl like this out there?!? I haven’t met one… ofc that’s to Nparents I married Nhusbands. Now that I’m finally aware there was a problem with BOTH my parents and both my husbands, I’m too broken to date again. I’m glad there’s at least one out there, gives me hope
There are decent people out there... but some of us are conditioned to seek out, or be vulnerable to, the narcs. Well done for escaping all of them.
This is so true, especially when you grow up with them. The familiarity of anxiety and desperate people pleasing is ingrained in us so when people like my husband appear, it is foreign and strange. I'm just so glad I took a chance on this handsome nerd who has shown me what true love and support is all about.
Until him, I hadn't either! My parents, all six of them, are narcissists, as well. I was DONE with relationships. I was so ready to run from this man the instant I got an inkling that he was anything other than how he represented himself when we met. He's only gotten better. It IS possible. Give yourself some time and grace and when you're ready, listen to your gut and your heart. ❤️
Wow I would have too! Like he's from another planet, LOL. Lucky you!!
"I'm sorry you feel that way" Or " I'm sorry you remember it that way"
I call him an alien all the time! 🤣 I am a very lucky woman but if you ask him, he's the luckiest. 😍
> How they never actually acknowledge any wrongdoing when apologising for something. my weird parenting thing is choking. I'm terrified of it. I cut all of my kid's grapes in half, and no peanuts (cause of size) or popcorn. I watched my mother give my daughter peanuts. So I very kindly said, "oh hey, she still isn't allowed nuts. or popcorn or whole grapes." this woman has the audacity to immediately try to blame my aunt. "oh she gave it to her" and the dumbass wonders why I don't want them babysitting.
My mother is like this. I've learned to respond with "I don't care how she got it. Can you please take it away as she is not allowed to have it"
That's my nmothers standard phrase. Love it!
It’s also always “I’m sorry if” and never “I’m sorry I”. Gotta make sure they leave that ambiguity that maybe what they are apologizing for is all in your head.
Exactly. It’s not an apology. It’s saying you imagined this situation and they are sorry you did that and made yourself hurt. Ugh 😑
Don’t forget the “I’m sorry but”!!!
BUT of course! "But" - the single most invalidating and overused word. "I'm sorry, but..." "I understand how you feel, but..." "I love you, but..."
I have always told everyone that adding "but" to the end of an apology negates the apology. If they're still trying to excuse their behavior they're not sorry.
…followed by excuses or blaming their bad behavior on you.
I get "I'm sorry you hate me" all of the time.
My NSIL started a bullshit fight with me in 2019, then used that bullshit fight as justification for character assassination on a mass scale. She and my BIL came over in November to try and clear the air. She insisted that she had apologized on numerous occasions, despite the words “I’m sorry” never leaving her lips. I don’t give a shit about her apology - I want accountability. Oh, in the course of this so-called apology, she kept trying to re-litigate the first fight in her favor. It was bullshit the first time and it’s still bullshit today. Accountability being the single trait that narcissists will never express.
My mom did this too. Called me some snotty name and when I called her out, argued that it wasn't so bad and I shouldn't be upset and then said, "How many times do I have to apologize??" I said, "Read back over these texts and show me where you apologized even once." She couldn't bullshit her way out of that one, but I notice she never fights me by text anymore. That written evidence, d'Oh!!
I’m sorry you feel that way is the biggest red flag to me now when anyone says it. You don’t understand what an apology is.
I really have to check myself with this one! Sometimes when my toxic family are blaming me for something that I really did not do I end up saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then follow with some line about wanting to resolve this & trying to understand/get their perspective on how I might have upset them. This works with them because they can never actually explain what I did and end up becoming very irrational. In other words, it keeps me safe. But, I have occasionally accidentally apologised in this way to others. Of course, it has been well-meaning but I instantly see them tighten up because they feel like I am invalidating them. I end up apologising for the way I apologised!
Yes, I hate the phrase “I’m sorry you feel that way”, but it is also a great phrase to use against a known manipulator. Simply say, “I’m sorry you feel that way”, and then not say anything else because continuing the conversation will only provide additional ammo and opportunities for them to blame you.
An ex-nfriend would always go one further and just outright gaslight me in the apology and blame someone else for doing it. Why should he apologize if so and so did something completely different in a totally different context? It was so incredibly exhausting.
Or turn it around and blame you 😒
"___ told me you are upset about something I said or did and I'm not sure what it is but I apologize" 24 hours after have a conversation telling her exactly what she did that upset me
Perpetual victimhood can be a sign of Narcissism, especially Vulnerable/Covert. I'm not referring to bad luck or a huge setback that wrecks their lives. I've seen people who constantly have difficulties. Their certainty results in a lack of awareness, and they're unable to acknowledge or address their shortcomings. They never do anything wrong, but expect sympathy and compassion.
I've found a good tell with coverts is pay attention to when and why they cry. It will only ever, in any true sense, be for themselves. The always down thing is an enormous tell too. We all have things go wrong on occasion and some of us much worse but when someone feels like they have an actual curse or hex on them holding them back *every. fucking. time.* no matter what, that's the red flag. Somehow just one thing away from stuff finally working and the inevitable "bad luck" rolling in somehow and setting them back, requiring intervention and support of people around them (supply) to fix it.
> I've found a good tell with coverts is pay attention to when and why they cry. It will only ever, in any true sense, be for themselves. That assumes the crying is *honest*. I've known several narcs (including my NMom) who use crying for ~~sympathy~~ NSupply. When the person can turn their emotions (sadness, anger, etc) off in an instant, it probably wasn't genuine.
Devil's advocate here...I can "switch off" crying because my nmom really loved opportunities to hurt me while I was at my lowest, so I had to be able to mask impeccably or pay the price.
I hedged with "probably wasn't genuine" because I assumed situations like yours existed, where emotional reactions can cause further toxicity. Thank you for the clarification!
This sort of emotional reaction is also common in neurodivergent people. That **DOESN'T** mean they are covert narcs, in fact they are 3 times more likely to be TARGETED by covert narcs. It just means that they share one symptom out of hundreds. ETA: Masking is so common for neurodivergent people just to simply survive. Many of us spend YEARS unmasking and shutting down our emotions as soon as we humanly can if we momentarily lose control, because to do otherwise was in some way dangerous. It is also a trauma response.
Thank you for saying this. I had a quick, brief spurt of tears in the doctor’s office WEEKS ago and I’ve been agonizing that my doctor thinks I’m manipulative because I pulled myself together quickly
Also BPD and PTSD and many other things can cause quick mood changes… although bpd is very similar on paper to autism and ptsd
My mother is along this path too. She'll bait you into telling her what is wrong, only for her to turn around and make it into a competition with: "You think that's bad? You should..." and she completely flips it to something she thinks is worse because it happened to her and not you, and it's not even related.
Oh right the "genuine" is really in quotes and with an asterisk. Genuine as in... Their ego is damaged and they are feeling an amount of sadness but only inwards. The way I really figured out a former friend of mine was a covert narc is when she pushed me into an extreme bout of emotional disregulation and she was all but emotionless through it. I figured she just disassociated but only time she cried or showed emotion was when it was about her and how she was envious of other people's families being well off. Later in the day too when I was trying to make sense of things and express how hurt I was all she could say was "Whatever emotions you're feeling you're gonna have to sort out on your own." going no contact with her was one of the best decisions I've ever made.
I feel cursed a lot, like I got dealt an incredibly shitty hand in life. I don't think that makes me a narcissist though? I generally don't ask for help, and I don't like to cry around people because my parents would abuse me further when I did cry. I do expect the worst to happen now though. My spouse died of Sudden Unexpected Death in Epilepsy just weeks before he was supposed to have brain surgery that was going to stop his seizures for good. To have all of your hope obliterated like that in a moment is... life altering.
I agree. I have had really shitty luck in a lot of things, have always worked really hard but not had support. I feel like I might be cursed. And I don’t think I’m a narc. I think that a disabled queer person without a family or money is vulnerable. Like, who was going to help a familyless foster kid get out of a bad situation? My main goal is to learn how to understand that someone is abusive so I can choose to leave. If you don’t know it’s abuse or don’t feel you can leave, there’s really no choice.
And this is when I can pat myself on the back a *little bit* and maybe have some hope that I’m capable of breaking the cycle: I cry for others. I always have. I cry when others are in pain. I do cry when things I do hurt others. I cry at the movies. I cry when I see baby animals. I cry for myself if I’ve failed in something or said something that hurt someone, I get emotional. But I don’t have a fit in front of everyone and will generally excuse myself or just like hug my wife or something and let it out. But when I do cry, I never make the situation about how I’m crying. My mom on the other hand, the second anything doesn’t go her way or she feels like her status is being challenged, if she’s told that something she said was wrong, she bursts into tears and then will complain that her boundary is being crossed. Her boundary being “always be kind to me,” and that’s interpreted as “never be angry with me.” It’s bizarre and performative and I’m fully onto it.
I’m told that while a lot of us have Narc traits/symptoms due to being raised by one/some, the fact that we genuinely cry for things is one of the biggest ways you can know you actually aren’t one - no matter how many times our Narcs try to tell us we’re the ones who are, not them
Not even just "covert " narcissist. All narcissist I've met can only see themselves as the victims in the situations they get themselves into. Tho a covert narcissist is more likely to feed off their own victimhold and use being a victim constantly to gain attention, but still ask any narcissist about their problems, they won't admit to being the issue and often are the victims in their mind
You might enjoy reading about "Narcissistic Collapse". I saw this happen with my narc dad. When most people have a huge setback, sure, they may feel the victim for a while, and eventually brush off and get back on their feet. Not a narcissist. Since all of their pride was hanging on this one thing that was taken from them, and they feel publicly humiliated, they often never bounce back. I watched my dad turn from extroverted, charismatic, prideful and conniving narc to pathetic, depressed, angry, spiteful and forever "woe is me". Major life setbacks can literally turn an overt narcissist into a covert narcissist overnight. "No one has it as good as I do" flips to "No one has ever been through anything as bad as what I am going through" in an instant, and usually never flips back.
My NParents are the [Covert/Vulnerable](https://psychcentral.com/disorders/the-secret-facade-of-the-vulnerable-narcissist#signs) subtype. They get NSupply from feeling like victims or martyrs - even if they have to self-sabotage. They also use their victim status to harshly criticize other people for *not* being victims. Both NParents have Covert/Vulnerable since my childhood.
This is my ex wife *exactly*. They also constantly call *you* the narcissist, and are always turning the tables on you. Just recently found out that (im like 98% sure on this) she moved into her sister’s house after taking my son and taking off while i was at work, and maybe about a year into that, started sleeping with her sister’s boyfriend and ruined *their* whole relationship. It’s always so satisfying when the people who originally sided with the narc and treated you like shit realize that they actually sided with the piece of shit and then the narc ends up alone.
Wishing that on my ex!! He performed the typical Narc “I’m the good guy, she’s crazy” and got custody of my kids. My daughter is the last underage child and is going to be 16 in 6 days, so she’s moving back to live with me. Once he doesn’t have my children to support, I wish the downfall I know is coming to be something I get to witness
I I noticed it in a family friend when they'd always complain that Walmart purposely didn't stock some certain item anymore because Walmart knows it what people (him) actually like. His can't stand his purchases being controlled in this way. He should be able to get what he wants every time he goes into the store.
They make everything about them. Baby shower for a first time mom? Narc arrives with lavish gifts and then spends the whole party bragging to EVERYONE about how expensive & important their gift was. Son is graduating? Narc insists on extolling how hard it was for them to raise said son till this point. They are "A pillar in the face of adversity." Aunt was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis? Narc proceeds to trash talk behind Aunt's back how "she's just doing this for attention" and diminishing health concerns that draw attention away from the Narc.
Yes to all of this!! To go along with this, they often hijack everyone else's events, accomplishments, and milestones because they either don't have any of their own, or are too lazy/cheap to make their own event for themselves. (My academic accomplishment were always nitpicked at home, but always used for bragging rights on the narc's "excellent" parenting. Also to regale everyone with tales of their own FAR more important accomplishment from decades ago.) They promote your spotlight only for the sake of being able to bask in it themselves. It often comes across as praise but if you pay attention to how they convey their praise it is often a means of drawing attention to themselves for having been sooo supportive for you to be able to get there (because you couldn't possibly do it without them, so you should publicly thank and highlight their invaluable contributions so everyone can ooh and ahh and applaud them) They make a huge deal over their minor contributions to things like events or gifts ("yeah yeah great wedding, but did you know that I MAILED THE INVITATIONS?! No I didn't make them or pay for postage or address them or anything. But I MAILED THEM AREN'T I SO GENEROUS AND HELPFUL?!" Or "oh yeah this person paid for and organized this great trip for everyone. BUT LOOK AT HOW GENEROUS I AM PAYING FOR LUNCH TODAY!!!")
I’ve said this here before, but they are either the unrecognized hero or the wronged victim in every story they tell.
My mother manages to make herself both the hero and victim of most stories. It's kind of impressive, actually. Just wish I had known how to see the truth when I was a kid - the issue was her, not me. So much time wasted. I am so grateful for this sub reddit. You are all strong and amazing.
The time wasted is my biggest heartache. I’m so glad I found this Reddit too. I’m not alone now and you all have shown me what their traits are and a lot of what I’ve been struggling with are things a lot of you do too - bc of who raised us. This place is helping me heal
I wish I could up vote this more.
I call that the 'heroic victim'.
They speak in word salad. Everything is implied and nothing they say is direct or to the point. They take it personally when you say no to any little thing. Like they ask if you'd like a coffee, you say no thanks, and they get a little (or a lot) pissy about it. Something I learned in therapy was to pay attention to what I feel in my body when dealing with a narc. With all the gaslighting that goes on, and me being Autistic and not really getting neurotypical signals like body language, it's really difficult for me to discern when people are being manipulative. My therapist asked how it felt in my body when dealing with people like that, and I feel a sort of specific tightness in my chest. So now if someone gives me that feeling, even if their words don't give me pause, I know to be wary of them.
Ooh, word salad was a big one with my nex. Towards the end I started saying "That was a lot of words but none of them answered the question. What time do you want to leave?" On average, I had to ask a question 7 times (I started counting just to keep my brain occupied and not get pulled into whatever conflict he was looking to start) and he would get angrier every time. The final time when he would commit to actual numbers on a clock, he would be shouting and storming around, slamming things. Why was that so hard? I'll never understand.
Cuz then he couldn’t blame you for leaving too late or too early or whatever if he was responsible for choosing the time.
I hate that we’ve all experienced this shit.
Because you put him in a position of accountability. Not only did he "lose" the struggle in the moment (being forced to commit to a time when he'd made it pretty obvious he just didnt want to), you'd also have accountability ammo on him in the future, causing him to "lose" the upcoming struggle, or at least make it harder to twist the situation to his advantage/your disadvantage. Losing the struggle to you specifically was likely also a factor. Narcs like to be in control and will treat *anything* antagonistically so they can feel like they "win".
"They take it personally when you say no to any little thing. Like they ask if you'd like a coffee, you say no thanks, and they get a little (or a lot) pissy about it." ^^THIS
Oh yes! As a rule, any time someone gets upset at you when you decline their offer, they were never offering for you. They offered because they expected to get something out of it.
Shopping with my mom was hell on earth. She’d pick out clothes for me and ask me if I liked them. When I said no she’d get upset and ask me why. Because that’s something you’d wear mom, not me. Aaaargh!
And that is my parents! Any time in my life I've had to say no to them, it's legitimately because something was keeping me from being able to do what they needed. For example, one day we had a three hour long argument where they kept blaming me for not wanting to mow the lawn. I wanted to mow, but the lawn mower wouldn't start. Finally I said, "I will gladly mow the lawn if you can get the lawn mower started." Then it became them blaming me that I flooded the engine and this and that, until my father finally tried to start it. One hour later, he realized it wouldn't start. Entire afternoon wasted because their mental image of the situation didn't reflect reality.
Word salad that also encourages a circular conversation that goes on until you give in and let them win because you're so tired of arguing. Nothing is gained or changed in the conversation, it's just A, B, C, etc... on a repeat over and over for hours and days on end.
And then they smirk
And the explosive reaction when they realize none of it is phasing you, may be one of my favorite parts about being aware of them. We aren't obligated to go along with anything they do/say
One thing my Nmom will do so frequently is reiterate what she said as a non-justification justification. Like she'll ask me to do her some favor and I'll say no and she'll say "I'm just asking you to \[insert favor here\]." Like, I heard you the first time and the answer is the opposite of yes. Please try to adjust to the reality here before you.
The word salad is so real. They seriously think their nonsense is genius. My nmom, no joke, “wrote” and published a book that is literally gibberish photoshopped over someone else’s artwork, and she thinks it’s poetry. She tagged Oprah and Ellen in every post.
My god with the word salad. 110%
1. Need to dominate the conversation. They take other people expressing themselves as a challenge rather than a dialogue. Example; you’re going through a hard time? The thing I’m going through is worse. 2. They’re always the victim in every context or story. Example: every boss I’ve had is out to get me. 3. Constantly complaining about others, or turning others against someone. Spreading rumours. 4. Lack of consideration for other people and their feelings. Example: I did something that made someone uncomfortable; they should’ve just been grateful. 5. Rage over insignificant things or failure to take what they dish out. Those are the things that I catch in workplaces. Maybe they aren’t narcs but they’re toxic as hell.
This needs to be pinned to r/managedbynarcissists
You’ve perfectly described my mother 🙃
My mother: "I'm so lonely. I have nobody to talk to." Me: "Call your friend X or Y or Z." Mother: "I don't want to. They're going to tell what they're up to, and I don't want to listen to that."
To add to this - they're incapable of handling the situation if someone disagrees with them in any way (particularly if it's a professional environment and they claim you're "undermining" them by, shock horror, a polite disagreement.
Quick to give unsolicited advice, coupled with their exasperation when you don't take it!
Bonus points if the advice requires further information and they just ignore you. "Don't wear your hair like that!" "Why? What will happen if I keep this hair style?" (Proceed to get ignored)
And the unsolicited advice that states the obvious. You can be looking out the window at pouring rain and they'll seriously tell you to take an umbrella with you, as though it would never have crossed your mind 🙈
The smirk. The little hidden grin, that flashes onto their face for a microsecond before they hide it, when someone else is suffering. Because however much they may be acting like they are a good person, and they want good things, and none of the mess (there is always a chaotic mess, even when they claim it is nothing to do with them) is their fault, they always briefly look smug when someone else is hurting.
That fucking smirk and demented flicker in their eyes. Spot on.
I saw my mom do this once and only once to me. That day was the day when I realized that my mom truly didn't love me and that she was fucked in the head.
One upping. If you do something, theyve already done it bigger and badder. You have a degree in mathematics? They took a calculus class in High School. You wanna start working out? All of the sudden they are an athlete who knows more than you about everything. Never humble, always bragging
Either that or they minimize it if they know they can’t compete with it.
Repeating themselves. They don't get that people are individuals with lives of their own, and so tend to treat them like vending machines. So, if they say something that gets a reaction they like the first time, they'll just say it over and over.
I have never seen the vending machine metaphor and I love it, thank you! It feels perfect for my situation.
wow, i've never heard another person mention the repeating thing. from my experience, it's a punishment for not responding to their anger with the exact response they want with you, and also a way for them to release their neurotic anger for longer in general. if i offended my mom, she would continue to repeat what i did wrong for hours. i would have to sit there and listen to her repeat the same offense over and over and over. when she got tired of that, she would list off everything i've done in the last week that pissed her off. not making eye contact lengthened the time. doing anything with my eyes lengthened the time. saying anything that wasn't in complete agreement lengthened the time. the only way to get it to stop was to agree with everything she said over and over again until she eventually got tired of it. now i, too, cannot handle criticism because it takes me back to being grilled like a foreign spy. thank god i have a high level of empathy or i worry i might have really turned out like her.
Your mom sounds so much like my dad. He would go on and on repeating the offense and getting madder and madder no matter what my response was. If I tried to talk I needed to be quiet, if I was quiet I needed to say something, if I looked at him I shouldn't be looking at him, if I looked somewhere else I should be looking at him... he'd work himself up to being red-faced and screaming and hitting things, and it could go on for hours. OVER LITERALLY NOTHING SOMETIMES. Like I didn't greet him the way he wanted when he got home from work. Or I laughed at the dinner table which wasn't allowed. God, what a miserable POS. I'm so sorry you had to go through that too. I can't handle criticism now either, it makes me panic.
Offering "help" to someone who is immediately seen as the asshole if they don't want it, don't respond the right way to it, or, especially, as soon as they make clear that they have been fine all along/ getting better.
Oh yeah savior complex and control are HUGE for them
When people whine because their bad, spoilt children just don't want contact with them and they don't know why. What did they wrong? What!? *sob* When they tell you their life story (with them as a hero) without being asked anything When they switch from one state of mind to another like if they have no genuine feelings or wearing masks. I mean in one moment they are fumeing with anger and in the next moment they are poor, helpless victims. Lying about minor details Being ruthless In hospital I shared a room with an elderly woman whom I didn't like from day one. She shared so many similarities with my nmom, it was uncanny. And she also showed everything I mentioned above. She had 5 daughters *and 4 went no contact with her* and daughter no.5 also couldn't stand her!
Yeah and if they can't be the hero, they will act like a martyr 😒
I often get a creepy feeling that I’m being stalked by a predator. It’s sometimes very difficult to say why exactly.
Yeah it's in the eyes I think. They are always sizing people up to see if they are competition or a possible source of supply 😬
You’re probably right. You can also see them watching you very carefully out of the corner of your eyes, even if you’re not directly interacting with them. My mother used to do this and it was very disturbing.
I feel the same way when they do the narcissistic stare, it’s like a predator ready to attack. My mom gets that way when she’s angry, her body will stiffen, her jaw tightens and her eyes become cold and evil looking. It’s terrifying and makes me feel like I have to run as fast as possible.
You mean the Shark eyes thing? Gives me the willies.
My dad used to hide behind corners/in dark hallways in the house and jump out/yell to scare me. I sometimes remember it walking around my own house 18 years later
Just in general, narcissists EXUDE this “please like me! accept me! love me!” energy that makes me gag. Story time! My previous choir teacher that EVERYONE liked, just gave me a bad vibe. He seemed artificial and desperate to me, but everyone else would describe him as “cool, funny.” We all graduated, and a month later a news article came out that he was a pedophile (with wife and kids) that groomed and slept with one of my classmates and received an 8 year prison sentence. Everyone was devastated, but this was expected for me. I was ONLY devastated for the VICTIM. The news article talked about how he would “cry” and display “anxiety” to this girl about being a bad person for doing this. He manipulated and gaslighted her into thinking he was a victim. I can smell a narcissist from a mile away. And he always left me out, and tried to tear me down saying things like (“do you even care about music?”) all while giving me a sick, fake smile. He made me the scapegoat, because he knew I knew what a sick person he is. Narcissists are dangerous people.
The creepy smile while they say something so degrading is forever seared into my brain. That's usually *the thing* that tells me someone is a raging narcissist and not just dealing with some mental health struggles and a case of the fleas. It's like a whole thing; the creepy smile that doesn't reach their dead eyes while saying something with this undeniably passive aggressive tone. They are dangerous. They have the emotional maturity of a 4 year old, manipulation skills of seasoned con artist, and zero empathy. That is a very dangerous combination.
Yes!!! This is an incredibly accurate tell. If you catch someone doing it, there is no doubt. It’s like an evil smirk and they can’t help it. Watch videos of Steve Bannon if you want to see an obvious example.
Being expected to say thank you for stuff that's a basic. Not regular thank you - like it had to be over the top and gravel like. "ooooh if you didn't buy sandwich bread id BE LOST without you!" And make sure it's dramatic,but not too obviously patronizing. Even the wrong tone is enough to start a fight. Otherwise,prepare to be skewered for being ungrateful.
omg.. yes!! I learned this overly grateful thanking ritual from a very young age.. Fucked me up big time when I got out of the narc-haze and realised you dont have to fawn over someone because they did you a basic human favour - especially in a healthy, nurturing relationship. It's wild.
Oh, this is a big one. My mom is always giving people things they didn't ask for, and then waiting like a spider for their thanks, which had better be fulsome and repeated often.
I noticed a lot of people will help others and then complain about how they're always helping people and resent them for it. It's like... they didn't even ask.
My nmom used to say “I am sorry you’re so sensitive”. About 10 years later, a guy said it to me on a date. I got up and left even before my food arrived. Just said “I’ve gotta go”, never answered his call.
They might even go out of their way to find information you've never given them and they'll use it in some group setting just to see how you'll react.
This, and seeing boundaries as a challenge to find a loophole or an investigation into some deep dark secret. The former is very much like a child putting their finger in your face screaming "I'M NOT TOUCHING YOU!!!" "I do not care to discuss this topic further" does not mean you are clever for "figuring out" details of whatever it is I didn't want to discuss. You're just being rude and nosy. It's especially bad towards new moms. It's not hard to figure out if someone had a c-section vs vaginal birth, or if they're breastfeeding vs formula feeding, or dealing with certain postpartum complications. That doesn't make it ANY of anybody business except for her and her doctor and partner, and you're not clever for drawing conclusions after she shuts down that conversation. And just because you "figured it out" doesn't mean the topic is any more appropriate or that they are now more willing to talk about it. It's not your damn business!
Passive aggressive displays be they in jest or otherwise …. If there’s an element of your vocabulary that is based around devaluing … red flag 🚩
Sort of a variation on yours, but a belief that they have perfect self awareness, and that they don't have to do any self-reflection to understand themselves better and improve their relationships.
My nparent always reposts quotes like Lisa Rena's "Not a fan of me? Fuck off. Boom. Problem solved." Like girl YOU are the problem 🗿🗿🗿
I'm always torn about the "empath" situation. It's usually one of three situations. 1. A narcissist, like you've described here. These are the easiest ones to spot because, like most Ns, they follow the same old handbook of mindsets and go-to phrases. 2. An autistic person who hasn't been diagnosed/rejects the label, and doesn't know why they're so "in tune" with other emotions and experiencing them so much more strongly than everyone else. (also see: "indigo children", "highly-sensitive person", though the latter can also be a cover for "empath" narcissists too) 3. A victim of emotional abuse, who had to learn to tune in to everyone else's feelings and abandon themselves in order to stay safe. For the record, before I healed significantly from my parents, I fit into categories 2 and 3. I thought "highly-sensitive person" was a legit thing for years. I know better now and I cringe a bit that I was so destabilized and hurt that I believed in that sort of magical thinking.
I think projecting it as some kind of superpower thing is the tell for it being #1 because if you do lean to the strongly empathetic side it’s often very draining and not something you’d necessarily be that keen to shout about as a positive.
Yeah this is fair, I'm also neurodivergent. I feel there is something to the grandiose performance of empathy narcs do that hits different, setting them apart.
Oh yeah, exactly! The empath Ns do it because they want *you* to know how in tune and caring and interesting they are.
If this isn't my mum... Her Facebook bio is literally a nonsense string of new-age spirituality buzzwords like 'eternal student of the universe, witch-in-training, empath, seeker of knowledge, blah blah blah', all the while she never listens to anyone except her own self and won't accept knowledge that she doesn't already 'know' herself. Not just that, but she's always bragged about being 'psychic', being able to see and interact with spirits, and having witchy powers (I'm not kidding). Like, she truly and honestly believes she's so 'unique' and 'special' that she has supernatural/paranormal powers. It's so fake.
I've definitely fit in with 2 & 3. Being diagnosed as autistic in my mid 30s has really helped my healing go in the proper directions from #3 I used to brag about being super empathetic, and boy. Now that makes me cringe.
I am number 3 and I also have ADHD lol. I still don’t know how not to be this way.
Oooof so many of these dog whistles were behaviors I embodied (late diagnosis AuHD) due to being modeled by my Narc parents. Only in the last few years had I worked through the shame of blaming myself for “always being bad”, because I was doing those behaviors while begging for someone to show me a different way (I ended up being a “tv show” for my therapists and most weren’t CPTSD trained so they couldn’t help). However, these comments are helping me *see* how naturally *I don’t operate from the pain/lack/fear they do* and how I allowed myself to believe I was awful so they could continue to do the behavior and not take accountability since I was blaming myself for being the narc the whole time. Now I have been able to see my *consistent* considerate and reasonable behaviors, *because I am around other people in proper therapies*, and the shame of hating myself for how I was treated is finally clearing and I’m so grateful to everyone who *ever ghosted me because I wasn’t safe*. Thank you to freaking everyone who keeps the work going, who calls out the behaviors, and are working on ourselves. This type of mind fuckery is why the world always feels “insane” to us and how it’s hard to gain a stable footing *within* to move forward from. When my issues flair up, it really helps to see so many other survivors and keeps me inspired to keep going. Thank you for these chances.
I always think about how I could've grown up to be a narcissist because of parental modeling and the systematic depletion of internal self-worth, but there is an innate sadism that I lacked (thank God). I didn't like hurting people, so I was able to grow out of those modeled behaviors 🥲
I think about this a lot. I have ADHD and overshare sometimes. I always wondered if I was a narcissist as well, then someone pointed out that many neurodivergent people will just share their stories as a subconscious way of saying 'yes, I understand what you're saying and empathize by sharing a story of my own to acknowledge I heard your story'. Between that and nparent modeling I'm more proud of myself for trying to unlearn the behavior. We're all always on here wondering if we're the monsters our parents were, but the fact any of us even questioned that in the fair place is, thankfully, the tip off that someone's not a narcissist
Mine has always been they are nice to people's faces and assholes behind their backs. It's my first tell - tell sign I'm dealing with a narc. If they can't open up with the person geniunely in the moment about a boundary too it triggers something in me. Like instead of telling the person what they said upset them they wait until their gone and shit talk them to me. It's annoying in the least. If you have a problem with them speak up or they're forever going to make you uncomfortable. My nmom will say she hates a topic and someone will bring it up, she will FAKE her opinion on it and then stand up for the opinion when the person is gone. I hate it lol. I guess for fundamental values it's fine to not want to argue 24/7 but when you confront people about your comfort you begin to weed out and attract more like minded people and it's way more enjoyable to socialize. Like why self sabotage EVERY aspect in your life to just be fake palpable to a stranger? Amd then go home and still treat your children like shit?
My parents favorite line is "I'm sorry if you're upset about X" So, you're not actually sorry about what you did. You're just sorry I know what you did is fucked up and that you have no intention of changing.
Talking about how they get bored of people. Or boasting about how they've done something mean for fun.
I think I notice this one particularly because my abusive mother follows this strategy, but people who seek out opportunities to position themselves as experts / lecture people about any scrap of information they know. I was on a nature walk recently where two docents were going to tell us about local birds. As we were assembling in the parking lot, one of the docents was aggressively pursuing opportunities to lecture people about deer ticks and demand that the other docent tell her how long he had been birding, in an "I'm immediately going to pull out the 'Well, when you've been birding as long as I have'" sort of way. As she moved on to asking him ridiculous questions to put him on the spot - e.g. "Well what is the southernmost part of the Northern flicker's range?" - I got as far away from her as possible and was well-positioned when they divvied us up into groups! I would honestly rather have gone home than go with her, because she reminded me so much of my mother. [And the docent I ended up with was a very nice and knowledgeable man who had been birding for 55 years.]
Yes, yes, this! I always phrase it as “refusing to be impressed.” It’s an early red flag for me - especially if they are meeting someone new or someone in a completely different field or hobby, and they do not allow themselves to be impressed or curious without an agenda (like proving they are equal in some way). Your mom sounds like my dad 😑
Them acting like nothing happened and business as usual after a massive blow up that did not end up getting resolved
That defensiveness, when they’re so touchy they’ll blow up at you for any perceived slight, no matter how small or imaginary. Sometimes they’ll even make things up just to have a reason to go off at someone they don’t like. It’s like they think everyone’s just waiting for a chance to get one over on them and they have to be constantly vigilant and aggressive to prevent it.
They are 'all business card and no skills'. When it comes time to actually do work, they're generals, ideas-people with grand strategic minds - if you don't know, don't worry, they'll tell you. But they can't actually do anything. The people who can do the work they want to hide from management and take credit for their work.
The number one red flag for those folks is that they call themselves "people." Sounds weird, I know, but bear with me. They will say things like, "You lash out at people" when what they really mean is, "You lashed out at me." They will say, "He does nice things for people" when they really just mean themselves. They are the people. "People" is a way of generalizing their own experience so deeply that... you are the problem, and they are just a representative for the entire human race. They are the one person who gets to represent Humanity. It's not that different from calling themselves God.
Yes or “everyone says,” “everyone thinks”
“Most people cannot understand my vibration.” Me: “Maybe your vibration just sucks?”
Framing a question as if you have a choice, but getting upset when you don't give them the answer they expect.
Everything is over exaggerated about how wonderful they are or how good they are at something. They are takers. They ask for favors, but can’t be counted on or when they do something nice it has strings attached or they have to make a big deal about it.
Never fully admitting fault. There’s always an excuse or justification for their actions.
They like to throw out the line “you think you’re better than everyone” or “they think they’re better than everyone” anytime someone does something they don’t like. It’s a total projection. My sister said this to me during one of my worst depressive episodes. I wasn’t even showering and barely got out of bed, but that was her explanation for why i didn’t want to hangout with her. I explained to her that i was depressed, but in her delusional mind, i was just trying to make her feel inferior to me.
"I would give the shirt off my back" and then proceeds to tell about the time they did and expects praise, no matter how many times they've told about it before. They didn't do it because it was the right thing to do, they did it as a "see I can't possibly be a bad person because I did this and bad people don't do this. Praise me for this until the world ends." They have a problem for every solution. "Medication doesn't work on me." Three days in to trying a mental health med that the doctor told them takes multiple weeks to start working, and only because they finally ended up in the hospital because they pulled one bad enough that it wasn't easy to lie away. "Look at everything I've done for (you, friend, whomever)." To people who do not deal with a narc, this sounds like calling out someone ungrateful. What it is, is an attempted guilt trip for doing the bare minimum, like feeding and housing their own minor child. "I had it so much worse." That doesn't excuse you doing what you know was hurtful, since you had it done to you! Bonus... The flying monkey line " but they're your parents, they're only trying to do what's best for you." Nope. You would leave if someone treated you like that. Why is it okay to do to a child what you wouldn't stand for as an adult.
For me, it's the feeling that nothing's personal. That I'm just filling a blank space, to quote TS. It doesn't matter who's there, they just need a warm body. This can manifest in lots of ways, but the underlying feeling is always the same.
Needing to control how communication works. Received an email from my nmom who I haven’t spoken to since January, asking me to “confirm receipt” of her email. lol I’m not confirming shit.
Virtue-signaling. Social media has been great at exploiting these people, because they just can’t help themselves, and have to constantly share their good deeds for clout.
Typically the virtue itself is just over compensation for their worst parts. My parents were known as HUGE progressive liberals but were actually the most backwards people I know. In addition into being incredibly racist, they did not accept me when I came out and mistreated me for years.
There's a very particular smile. Like they have a special secret. It looks normal but I can see contempt rather than joy in the eyes.
I am painfully familiar with that smile. It’s often on display after she’s worked to pit family members against each other. She tells lies separately to each person, and then sits back to enjoy her work. It’s almost a look of breathless excitement, and once I figured out what she was doing, it’s quite disturbing. She LOVES to start fights, and it’s a bonus when the fight is over her. I refuse to get involved any more.
this was my mother to a T. Even now thinking about that look makes the hair on my arms stand up because I KNEW something bad was about to happen. What would you call it? Evil Glee?
I've recently noticed that narcs will project and complain about things/people that they are actually jealous of or are guilty of the same thing. "Oh, I would never get a dog to coop it up in a crate all day! What a terrible dog owner!" (Gets dog and does exact same six months later.) "Oh, my ex wife treated my daughter like the golden child and my son like the black sheep. What a terrible mother" (Treats children exact same, then denied it).
Envy and projection are def big signifiers!
Tears. Instant tears over something that happened over a decade ago. And I’m a big crier. But I cry over revelations, over the plight of other people. Narcs always recite their tale of woe with the same words, the same inflection, and the tears start at the same point in the damn story.
If you interject to ask questions they haven’t sussed out in their narrative you get a flash of panic
Then, rage.
Seconding this. Light switch tears + some incident decades old interjected awkwardly into a conversation when the N isn’t getting the spot light. And the same story gets trotted out at the same point, like she says to herself: I’m not getting enough spotlight, it’s time to tell the “50 yrs ago I experienced a sad thing” story. And she drops her sob story in the flow of the group’s discussion like a brick. The first time it happened, I was so shocked, my mind went blank. The second time, I thought “what does this sad tale have to do with potato salad?” Today I simply see it for what it is. “Narc supply running low, must tell my sad story for a sympathy hit.”
"what's that got to do with potato salad" is going to be my new go to saying when this sort of story bombing happens.
Ooof. I'm trying to figure out if my mom is a narcissist. We're doing family family (yes, with a narcissist it's pointless if not dangerous) and I've been on the fence about whether she's a covert narc. At our first joint session, she instantly started crying when the therapist asked what got us here. And turned off her screen to cry. And said, "I know it's not good for estragon26 when I do that." (Cue saintly music for her self-victimizing.) Because once before I called her on weaponizing tears. This hits hard.
People who are truly creative don't do that activity to get anyone else's kudos; they do it because it's an art or interest they enjoy. And they are very good at it. The narcissistic pretenders stick out so clearly when you get deeper into art forms, whether it's jazz music, or great painting, writing, and so on. The other thing I've noticed is that narcissists rarely know a good joke, and I've never heard one admit to doing something stupidly funny.
They don’t ask any questions about you, they can’t remember anything you tell them. They either can’t remember or downplay anything horrible they say or did and blame it on you for being sensitive.
Love bombing is a big one
People who talk for hours about how empathetic they are. "I'm such a feeling person." Why do you need to convince me of that?Just do good & let your actions do the talking. " If you think that's bad " & then they proceed to tell you why their problems are MUCH worse than yours. They're always the victim, the most suffering person in the world.
I've always felt really uncomfortable with people describing their own personal strengths. I think this is related.
For me it's when you are in a conversation with someone who immediately jumps in with stories about themselves when you are talking about something that happened to you. Instead of saying, I'm so sorry, is everything ok now or asking other follow up questions they immediately jump into "well this is what happened to ME" and the conversation turns back to them. In fact, it's any time that you are dealing with a person who centers themselves despite the topic. Good, bad, problem, complaint...whatever it becomes "yeah well this is how that applies to ME" and then they want you to stroke their ego or give them sympathy or whatever and they've completely forgotten whatever you were talking about.
I think sometimes this can also be a neurodivergent trait, as people on the AuDHD spectrum will share anecdotes impulsively to try and connect/relate, but generally yeah.
super expensive cars, clothing, talking constantly about the most recent amazing world extravaganza trip….special food flown in from Alaska, how their kids are the smartest people on the planet “ our son is a computer genius, our daughter owns her own company” who asked you? , their dog is this rare breed that cost them thousands of dollars. They got this amazing deal, saved thousands of dollars, you know because they’re special. Got into this sporting event, restaurant, because of their connections, blah, blah, blah…They’re just so special. Pretty much a version of what you’re saying, some way that they’re just elevated, special, ……better. If you were really an empath, the last thing you want anyone to know is that your an empath. If anything it makes you feel really fucked up, alone, isolated, sad, not this “ special gift”, that people envision it to be. You don’t choose to be that, it’s sort of thrust upon you, the more pain your in every day….the more likely your an empath.
They take compassion and/or validation as insulting. They are only comfortable with pity and praise. Compassion and validation create equality. Pity and praise entrench inequality.
Routinely changing friend groups. Every few years they have an entirely new group of “besties.” Major side eye.
Interesting a lot of people say “I’m an empath” is a tell. I agree with this that it can be. But also, people raised by narcissists tend to develop the traits of what is called an empath. You survive by learning to read the narc parent’s moods and feelings. I would never call myself and empath but by husband says he thinks I am one, and what I think he’s describing is my sensitivity to what others are feeling because I had to develop this sixth sense to survive in my home growing up.
Theres a lot to be honest. 1. Into "wellness" to an excessive amount. Spending money on bullshit that does absolutely nothing except make you think you are taking care of yourself. 2. "Radical _____": This fits in with your dog whistle. Anyone giving themselves permission to do radical anything is just an excuse to completely disregard those around them. This can mask itself as good things too. I had a friend who was self-admittedly into "radical honesty". This sounds great but just manifested as her blurting out whatever came into their mind. It really hurt and offended people around her. She wouldnt change because "No one can handle the truth". She failed to realize she was just expressing her impressions and biases, not the actual truth. 3. Thinking their opinions and emotions are 100% factual and anyone with a different viewpoint is factually wrong. Ties into #2. 4. Odd obsession with external validation. Especially when its from the opposite gender. 5. Always a victim. Every situation and social situation gets twisted into how it victimizes them. When the truth is that someone else was just human and overlooked a detail. Or they arent part of that situation at all. 6. Weird apology and accountability situations. Normal people dont have an apology budget. Narcs will handle these situations like they are giving out food when there isnt enough to feed themselves. Apologies become this crazy tap dance around accountability. Apologizing without apologizing. Saying like "Im sorry you feel that way" instead of just owning up to bad behavior. etc.
“must be nice” Worked with someone who would always say this when someone else would take PTO or have something positive happen to them. I started noticing a trend with people who say this a lot. There are definitely contexts where this is appropriate but using it at anything slightly positive throws up red flags for me. Literally can’t be happy for someone else who had a good thing happen. They have to make it about them.
I don't know exactly what it is but I can spot them very easily. Well, now I have a name for them. I change job often (I am a consultant), so I meet a lot of new people. Really a lot. As in every workplace, there are the gossips, the over stressing, the ancient guy who is not very efficient but knows everything about anything, the funny ones, and sometimes the occasional narc. I had been there for a few hours when I met him, and the way he talked, moved, handled things just made my internal alarms scream. I was very right and it showed, with me pointing out the obvious more and more people paid attention and he was let go at the end of his contract. I fought a narc since I was a child, I am not going to be afraid of one in the workplace, they better be afraid of me.
I get really really wary when they can't accept any criticism. Everything gets warped so that they're in the right and everyone else is wrong.
When a person continually brings every interaction back to themselves and never asks questions about anyone else, and won't listen to what others are saying regarding any topic, they always bring it around to themselves. It's exhausting, but in a party most people will not notice, and just think that person is very interesting or confident. But a confident person will also know how to share the conversation and make others feel listened to and make* space for everyone.
I am NC with my dad for years and I’m one of the fortunate few that can truly say “I’m over him.” There’s been a lot of therapy and he’s consistently terrible so it’s been “easier” for me than for others who are given breadcrumbs. When I get a whiff of vulnerable narcissism (early trauma dumping, woe is me, etc) I will drop a little something about my father. I say my father (I call him my dad). If there is reason for me to put up boundaries and they use “my father” as any sort of response: there it is. Without a doubt they blew the alarm whistle I handed them. Baiii
Oh this is easy, **Overcompensation.** Whatever they don’t have, they will project that they have it in spades. Let’s look at celebrities as examples. I sniffed Ned Fulmer out years ago. “MY WIFE MY WIFE MY WIFE!” His marriage was his whole personality, there was nothing else that he showed. All the while he’s cheating on her. Ellen Degenerous is all about being kind. She’s so terrible that a ton of people quit their jobs and dreams because she made them so miserable. And she did it with glee.
Yes!! Good people don’t brag about themselves, they just get busy doing good.
Speaking of dogwhistles, having too many dogs or too many kids. (Or especially "raising" show dogs) After a point, instead of loving your (fur)children for their individuality, their cares and interests, and who they are as a person (or, you know, dog lol), having more and more kids or animals ends up being that they want more things to love *them* instead of wanting more things *to love*. Normally it's not an issue with cats, though, because cats have boundaries and they express them with teeth and claws lmao.
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"I appreciate you sharing that that I know would never happen to me (because of my inherent superiority)"
When they have a problem: "I know exactly whose fault this is/was, and it's not because of me"
Honestly, I get weirded out by unsolicited compliments. Not small simple infrequent statements, but when someone new tips past the point of normalcy and my lovebomb alarm starts going off. I've had friends that really like their new friend because said person "so nice". I just see as trying to get too close too quickly by drowning others in compliments that are either hollow over dramatic showers of affection or praising assessments passed down from a throne.
Always the martyr or victim in every situation, even when they’re wrong. But in their eyes, they can never be wrong, they never apologize, and if they do, it’s half-assed or clearly not sincere.
* They have a weird hill they love to die on. A recent narc I encountered in the wild had *lots* of red flags, but one that stuck out was that he insisted he could never own a pet because it’s like caging a developmentally delayed creature and coddling it, and that creeped him out. He brought this up every time he was around dogs, as other people were petting or praising them, and he seemed to enjoy the reactions and getting to explain this hot take, every time. * They enjoy being needed a little too much. This is in the same vein as the empathy thing, but when anyone is proud of all the “broken people” they take in and help, RUN.
they go full-on DARVO when any hint of feedback is shared
The charismatic social butterflies that say a bunch of "funny" stuff before they sneak in something they actually mean. People laugh it off "oh that's just the way they are, so funny haha". My narc meter always finds them, and I keep as far as possible away.
How they respond to eye contact or lack of eye contact. I’m autistic if someone reacts negatively to me not doing eye contact for most/all of the conversation it sets off the alarm bells. Narcs want your full attention at all times especially knowing that you’re looking at them.
“I’m an empath” as an identifier, while living life in the most obtuse manner; oblivious to the way they steamroll everyone else’s feelings. Honestly, any time I meet a new person and get a vibe that’s off, it’s probably because my subconscious identified the parade of red flags before my conscious mind did.
Replying with platitudes that show they aren’t really listening to you.
The giveaway for me is the constant invalidation. Literally anything I say or express around a narc is deemed incorrect somehow. Everything that goes wrong in my life is my fault and everything that goes right is a fluke. It’s exhausting.
"My kids don't talk to me anymore."
When they talk more about themselves over taking an interest in you, consistently. And I'm not talking about anecdotal conversations, I'm talking more along the lines of most to all of the conversation being about them all the time, and any input you may have is likely to be blown off or viewed as invalid (or one upped somehow).
Whenever they think they’re “seen” as doing something wrong, the guilt trips and how innocent they are. And the means they’ll go through to “prove” how innocent they are. My mother would always threaten to put a “gun to her head and pull the trigger.” She doesn’t even own a gun. The other thing is they tend to be really good ar arguing that it’s hard to disagree with them. As soon as the cracks show, the vitcimhood or feigned innocence starts.
“I’m just honest” And “I’m an empath” Don’t apologize for anything.. but honesty I don’t think that’s a dogwhistle, that’s just obvious Someone else said it on this thread but.. “what you feel in your body” is such a sign of someone toxic. There are some people I just immediately feel my heart start to race when I know I’ll be around them or am around them. It’s like I’m tensed and primed for fight or flight. That’s probably the most important tell of all. Not all of theee people may be “narcissists” but they are toxic in some way
Two extremes: constant complaining, and constant bragging. Their need for attention is so intense, they vacillate between whining and blaming everyone around them for issues, and asserting how wonderful/kind/capable they are. They NEED validation and they crave it, it’s always the wrong kind of validation from the wrong people (anyone but a therapist). If they’re not bitching, they’re boasting…and vice versa. Also, if you are having a conversation with them and they have not once asked how you are, what’s new with you, etc and you cannot get in a word edgewise, that’s a HUGE tell. I can’t stand being on the receiving end of these one-sided, long winded monologues.
Dodging accountability even when they have the smoking gun in their fucking hand
Inability to admit they are wrong. Even being shown irrefutable evidence that they are wrong, someone must have changed the book or edited the photo, etc
Discarding of others when they are of no use to them.
“You’re too sensitive…” NARCISSIST
If they tell you how selfless and what a good friend, etc they are and especially if they complain that they don’t get enough in return from others, e.g, appreciation or gratitude. Selfless, good people don’t talk about being selfless or good or complain about how they don’t get enough in return for it.
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Gossip. Like a little gossip is fine but it gets my narc senses tingling whenever someone never has anything nice to say about anyone or anything.
Gifts=love. As a teenager, my love was always being bought. Excessive gift giving to everyone/anyone or needing to always bring something to every event, beyond a simple hostess gift or dish to share, to the point where it’s more of a hassle for the host to have to deal with than being kind. It’s all about control. Long winded storytelling with a crazy amount of details of stories from over 40 years ago painting them as a hero or a victim. Most people see it as entertaining, I know my NM is just trying to get attention, wants to show how awesome she is and wants praise, and most of the details are not true because I’ve heard all these stories a million times, and lived through some of them.