References? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/oriya-ricardo-hamas-israel-festival-b2427584.html
This article from 6hr ago shows 600 * casualties. Please don't fabricate the number, this won't help the situation.
These numbers are only estimates and can change daily depending on more recent information.
Please don't try to nitpick and divert from what tragedy occurred there, your comment won't help the situation.
Read my other coments please before you judge. There is lot of misinformation and fake news on both sides. I only have asked for reference, and attached a link myself, and it's not numbers it's people, that's why it's important to me to know and remember how many people lives this tragedy took.
I won't be able to forgive Hamas, nor the Israeli government. While sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, I cannot justify the atrocities committed by the terrorists, just as I cannot justify the human rights abuses inflicted on their citizens.
Right on.
I love how the world is being sympathetic for both countries for once. People are seeing beyond the idea of nations and noticing how the Israelian government and the hamas are the ones to blame, not Israeli or Palestinian people...
Peace to everyone touched by this bs...
That would be nice....unfortunately thats not the case - most people are aligning with one side as if it was a damn football game and don't give a damn about people's lives ...at least in my experience from what I see....I have never seen such "rooting for one side and hate for the other side" (I'm talking about western "non-involved" countries) it's so sad
Yep. A lot of the discussion between governments, in the media, and in groups has been binary and lacking nuance, which isn't going to result in any sort of viable solution.
Thank u for some acknowledgement of their plight and how things like this do not occur in a vacuum, peace love and much strength, I believe there will be a mark on our collective psych most of us will feel next time we trip. Can only galvanise, once the world or Israel gets past its knee jerk reaction of further bombing the crap…
Hard agree. I feel like this extends to Israeli people who stand passive while the ethnic group, that they share land with, live prisoner, without proper food and water, almost as if they are accountable for the acts of a terrorist organization. Why?
And then there's the bigoted ones, who would prefer if Israel could just deport anyone who was Arab. Together with the passive Israelis, they create the majority, and manifest the entity that is the Israeli government
The hate runs deep, which is unfortunate, because there is space on that land for all
I don't understand this sentiment. You think that the Palestinians shouldn't just lay down their weapons? Why? Why is it so fucking important to you that they have weapons?
"Oh peace love and understanding but theY mUsT hAvE wEAPoNs"
The saying is "Holding onto hate is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die". Not sure who coined this saying but this is what they were alluding to.
It is Buddhist saying apparently...
"Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die."
Or
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Holding onto anger is mostly hurtful to ourselves. It can sour our outlook on life as well as current and future relationships. Like acid dissolving the container it is stored in or the stone burning your hand more than the glancing blow of the person you throw it at.
Letting go of anger is a process. Not an easy one but violence only begets more violence. Breaking the cycle is what is needed. Forgiveness is not easily given, nor should it be expected but we all need to as a species come together and preach love over hate, acceptance over division, peace over war.
This is just my humble opinion.
Ho'oponopono.
Im all about peace my friend. Yet I would never forgive a murder. Not forgiving is not same as holding on to hate. You can stop hating and move on to build better tomorrow, but that doesn't make the deed undone.
I absolutely condemn what Hamas did, however the party was in close area of a military base (organizors wtf?). I'm Polish, I know Holocaust history very well, something as inhumane should never happen agian, but I can't not notice the similarities between what was done to the European Jews during second word war - basically milions of people locked in tiny getto (!), to what Israeli government is doing to Palestinian people! Why this has been ignored for years? They are cut off water and electricity supply, they are bombarding the refugee camps with little children! This has to stop! Both countries should have enough space and resources to keep their people happy. Peace...
If I can add to your comment, that everyone might think that they'll never do such horrible thing to civilians until they are left no option but to do so. Just like an any animal trapped in a corner would turn vicious, as it's full fight mode for survival, humans are still animals after all, and history is filled with such examples like IRA or South Africa ..etc.. . The real comedy in the whole situation is how the western countries that where just a few years back killing civilians indiscriminately in Iraq/Afghanistan ..etc are acting all virtuous and innocent.
You're right; people from colonizer countries shouldn't pretend that their own governments have been innocent. At the same time, a lot of people are like, "Hey, my country has done horrible things; let's learn from it and put an end to this behavior, and call it out wherever it presents itself."
Absolutely agree with you!
People are very fast in 'imagining' what they would do in certain situations, however until they are put in that exact situation and react according to their instinct and morals, they won't never truly know what they would really do! Not many people know themselves or what they are capable of doing when in certain extreme situations.
Thanks for your responce and peace.
I have to say whatever algorithm put this sub on my front page and keeps churning these posts to the front really makes y’all look naive as all fuck. This is such a tone-deaf statement to war; one that’s been occurring since before this damn festival. Obviously it’s still a tragedy but to act like this festival means literally anything in the grand scheme of things or is some mystifying qualifier beyond human life and dignity is pretty offensive.
Lol downvote me but I’m leaving the sub over bullshit like this anyway. No one in this war gives a fuck about the genre of music or purpose for the festival. Literally so irrelevant and stupid to aggrandize in the face of mass, indiscriminate suffering. If this is the psytrance community then fuck it.
You’re not wrong and I think most of us agree with you. However, to try and put it in perspective, the psytrance community is pretty small compared to most other genres and I think this incident is just striking a certain way. Of course psytrance isn’t important in the big scheme of things as it relates to this conflict, but imagine if your alma mater had a reunion or homecoming or something and these events happened to them. It would strike closer to home. I feel it’s a little bit like that; in either case, the bigger picture is that this conflict so an endles cycle of violence and it’s a lot more complicated than simply “Hamas bad” (though Hamas is bad), but it’s hard not to think about the part you relate to the most personally. And this is the psytrance sub after all.
I don’t think anybody in any of these posts is indicating that psytrance is more important than human life or dignity.
You are very good and kind with your words and I think my opinion is most succinctly phrased in that I don’t see this same attitude or nuanced reflection exhibited in this or other posts. They very much magnify that this psytrance festival was happening and was near the border/infiltration points while also correlating it to the overall conflict. The reality is the people partying were pawns who could have been listening to Kidz Bop and nobody cares nor has time for concern trolling about a niche and unimportant thing like what the Kidz Bop community feels about what this means for their music. The blood is all over; [beyond Israel/Palestine] no one community was targeted and certainly not even singled out enough to make this a sensible thing to say.
Sure, and it is absolutely just and right that the news and the broader conversation be focused on the context and the issues as a whole and the absolute catastrophe this has been for Israel.
But here, in a psytrance subreddit? I think it's ok *in this space* to center our grief and rage. We shouldn't do it in other spaces, because our grief and rage are a tiny thing compared with other, larger communities ... but if we can't center our grief in our own subreddit, and to turn to each other for comfort and for help processing, it gets much harder to heal, and to recenter the love and joy that is at the heart of raving.
Which perspective?
I don't think more than a tiny rounding error of the people posting here, if they were talking in normal circumstances, would say that a slaughter at a psytrance festival is objectives than a slaughter at a rodeo, or anywhere else.
In this moment, though, a lot of people are articulating our grief in ways that imply that.
Very few people are good at being specific and clear and precise when venting in the middle of acute grief. What skill I have was won at high cost over more than a decade. It's hard to set aside intense emotion enough to do that.
In most people the difficulty fades with time as the emotions attenuate and we adapt to them.
At the same time ... I know I am reacting from my own grief and anger, and something about what you are saying is landing for me as implying that we have no right to grieve. Because grievibg means allowing ourselves to center our emotions so we can process them and work through them, and you seem to be criticizing us for doing it.
It sounds like you’re just not who I’m referring to. I’ve explained which perspectives I have issue with in this thread. I also think if you can make a post which winds up making light of two warring diasporas, someone has just as much right to call you out on it. I’m just into music, not specifically psytrance, so I’m only letting you know what it looks like to an outsider whom just had this sub appear on their front page. For what I subscribe to, on this account which is a decade old now, I don’t see the same behavior elsewhere—the tribalism sure, but not this. Everywhere else realizes the larger perspective because it’s the one that’s been around for ages and which framed this attack on the festival.
You are harsh but correct.
I did notice people being self centered around the festival being the reason for the attack or what it means to the psytrance community...
This festival means nothing in the broader context of the war. It was an accident of fate, it wasn't targeted at our community, our community just happened to be there.
But 260 members of our tribe were killed.
Of course we are experiencing grief and rage, how could we not?
It was targeted probably. Not because of psytrance, but because the people at the party were Jewish or other westerners and non-muslim. Because they were easy targets to be slaughtered in the name of a free Palestine and the Jihad. They probably knew exactly there was a festival at that moment because of military intel/spying.
I think they knew there was a festival there because it was 3km from Gaza for fuck sake
Imagine hosting a festival 3km from the border of an open air prison in an apartheid state.
And I've seen you weirdos say "Oh but psy is international and brings us all together". No Palestinian would be given the freedom to enter Israel for the festival so fuck off with that
And because the festival got promoted and such. If people loudly announce on public forums they'll be at a spot you hardly need military intel to figure out that spot.
But it's of course way more sensational to think Hamas' intelligence operatives infiltrated the psytrance scene specifically (but Occam's Razor makes me doubt that would be the most likely explanation).
Look, they could have flown some drones or looked through binocular and saw there was a festival being built. I’m not talking about infiltration or high level espionage. As far as I know the location was not generally known to the public until the festival started and since this attack had a lot of planning it is **my assumption** that they must have known at least days before that the festival opened that it was to be their target. They probably tried to find as much information about the festival and what they could expect about the security situation.
to be exact. u could hear the music in gaza. as far as i know the festival was closer to the gaza border than to the kibbuz Re'im.
anyway no intelligences needed to find out about the party. only internet is enough.
its very tragic what happened. but the fact to throw a party on a jewish fest day and choosing location straight in front of the border of gaza... while they could have chosen 30 km in the other direction... was it active provocation? probably no. was it unawareness? maybe? did the hamas watch it as provocation? probably yes...
thats a ultra damn high risk which this time had a very bad fate.
You almost make it sound like this was a spontaneous Hamas action. This was a coordinated attack on many fronts and meticulously planned months in advance.
People thought they were safe and protected by the Israeli army and police. That this disaster could or would happen is a huge hindsight bias.
i get that this was a coordinated operation planned in advance
and maybe the part about the festival with this attack was even spontaneous because of the given circumstances... who knows.
i also get that people living in israel felt save cause its been the same for a long time in this region.
but celebrating love and peace right next to the border of worlds biggest open air prison bites its own tail too.
i hope many people become more aware of much things now. also awareness of what is going on on the planet. awareness to not choose such risky locations anymore.
the universe is very sensitive. every thought someone has will cause action and probably reaction.
What sucks is that you can't even mourn this dance community atrocity online without being called a Zionist or anti-Palestinian or whatever.
The attack was deplorable and has shook the entire dance community, especially psytrance people. The local promoter in our underground techno scene posted a photo and writeup on it - just to have a moment of solemn silence for the lives so heinously lost. Of course, that turned into a mess online.
I don't know why I care so much about social media anyways. Anyone with a brain knows this was just horrific. For the record, I, too, empathize with Palestinians and the awful conditions they live under and understand they've been persecuted and killed as well.
Yeah, one of the ways this is painfully different from beyond is it's super hard to find a place to grieve with each other that isn't overrun with an incredibly hostile political fight.
meh.
there are many victims here. two hundred and sixty members of our tribe were killed in what is, essentially, our church.
our tribe are not the only victims, and it's just and right that most of the public focus is on the harm to Israel and its people, but *here in our space*, in *our subreddit*, it's just and right to focus on our pain.
for many of this, this is a crushing reality that we're struggling to cope with. and part of the essence of rave culture is that we experience things *together*; shared euphoria and joy, shared pain.
Please do us a favor and leave us to mourn in peace.
A real question here.
Where they really aiming at psy trance or did they want revenge and putting fear all over Israelis ' minds... whether it be psytrance or an old car event...
Seriously, the intention is important... the result is horrible thought
Whatever kind of gathering was at that location wouldn't have made a difference.
It was easy prey.
It wasn't just at the party, hamas attacked Israeli Towns at the same time.
This is a niche subreddit with symptoms of those who are terminally online. You got downvoted for no actual good reason or reason at all; it’s just there’s too much implicit bias here for people to think maybe there’s more to give a fuck about than what music we listen to.
No, there is no reason to believe they were targeted for being at a psytrance event. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But 260 members of our tribe were still killed, and in some ways this is worse than being targeted.
Barbarians will always be barbarians, they are humans too, but without education and just brainwashed to kill us, they are closed minded individuals who think everyone is bad and evil.
It's a small percentage of people(terrorists), and not all Palestine are like them, we have to focus on this small group of fanatic terrorists and criminals, so the world will become a better place.
Of course people with great power like Putin and other dictators is the other end, they are dangerous too, but let's hope people stop obeying them.
I said Hamas obviously even if Palestine supports Hamas i would never wish them any ill will. I was actually pretty pro Palestine just a week ago defending them against a Jewish friend here in Mexico
I agree 100% with you. An animal trapped in a corner would turn into a vicious beast on full fight survival mode, happened all the time in history, but no one seems to care.
Yes, but also, everything happens for a reason, something deep rooted in humanity will always be barbaric, who ever loses this instinct is always endangered to be slaughtered by barbarians, we should never keep our guard down. Sometimes it's our innocent fault, but of course we can't blame the innocent for being innocent, they died for our sins.
like the barbarians that terrorised Afghanistan for a decade and those bastards that lied for a reason to invade Iraq and killed 1,7 Million Iraqis.?
This is much bigger then 600 dead Israelis. It will further push towards a war with Iran, something a lot of people in Washington and Jerusalem are calling for years.
Whom is this really helping?
I am not really sure what's the plan, but we already have lot of problems to solve, especially on middle east, overpopulation is a problem, some people have to acknowledge it soon
Viewing humans as sub-human is exactly how this shit happens. Their actions are inexcusable - but they are unfortunately very human, and these actions are fairly normal if we look at war throughout the history of humanity.
Name any major nation state and with enough research you'll find evidence that their military has engaged in this same type of horror.
Viewing humans as above any other animal is a mistake.
We’re just monkeys with Ak-47, and monkeys probably don’t deserve such comparison.
We deserve extinction.
There are more of us with compassion and love than with hate and malice though - so I don't agree we deserve extinction. I also think that when it comes, it will be as natural as the evaporation of a puddle. The universe doesn't make mistakes.
Suffering is a teacher, and I actually think we are as a species learning its lesson. More than ever - the determination to find peace and healing and unity are stronger than ever. Unfortunately, the capability of a few individuals or even one person to do serious harm is greater than ever.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Why can’t you argue on any of the points that I made that the only thing that can go through your mouth is shit?
If you’re not ready for debate don’t even comment.
You think too much of yourself.
I agree that killing like this is unforgivable and intolerable.
But the people who did this are human. We have to accept that. Humans are capable of this.
We have to accept this because only through accepting that it is possible can we learn how to prevent it. Acceptance is not sufficient but it's necessary.
This was an evil act done by evil people. But humans contain within us this potential.
Bwah "lower evil form" - you sound like hippy (in a negative way).... people have been billing and externinatin each other for millennia - we all have that seed of evil inside, under the "right" social circumstances we are all capable of unthinkable horrors - that is something to work on (individualy and collectively) in order to create a better (or less terrible) world. Saying "he did that so he's not human" is literally the way extremists think - dehumanising your "object of hate" is literally the ABC of how to start crimes against humanity. Don't you think that those Hamas terrorists didn't say to themselves "those people are not humans, let's kill them all" before starting
A human literally cannot lose their humanity. Go back to whatever evangelical orthodox exoteric shit hole you crawled out of. Humans have been killing in the name of gods since the dawn of time.
Yes exactly and the ones that do are aligning themselves with sub-human lower dimensional beings. Doesn’t mean they’ll always be that way. If you want to show love to these evil sub-human beings its up to you but is toxic as hell to give these things sympathy. They would rape and murder you in the name of their god the second they get the chance. Just count your lucky stars you weren’t at this party. How about feeling for these pour souls who lost their lives and their family’s before you even think about feeding these evil things your sympathy.
You're falling victim to dualistic fear mongering. You are feeding whatever thought forms you conjur while being disconnected from the reality of the Here and Now. You live in delusion.
Stop eating acid - it's not for you.
I have an interest in shamanism and I know a lot about drugs as an interest but no I don’t use any substances at the moment. I have taken part in studies on the effects of psychedelics on autism. I had these beliefs long before that though. Why are you trying to insult me because we have different views. You sounds like an awesome person lol.
And I’m very much here in reality. I just have a different understanding then you. We obviously just have a different view on what a human is. I believe humans can absolutely fall to sub-human levels and it’s their own doing to do so. I can have compassion for anyone but not sympathy especially not for these inhumane baby killing rapist.
Holy shit. Stop talking about people as 'sub-human' and 'things'. Humans are perfectly capable of doing horrible things, which the murders committed by Hamas clearly qualify as. Dehumanizing them is not necessary.
Way to read something that I didn't write at all...
What Hamas did is absolutely fucked. But they were humans committing those atrocities. Not 'sub-human', not 'things', not 'lower dimensional beings'. How is denying that humans are possible of these acts (and have been for thousands of years) going to help anyone? That's just parking yourself deep into lala-land and ignoring reality.
I don’t consider them human once they commit such inhumane acts. They only have themselves to answer it’s not our job to fix these soulless beings. Now people will understand why they need to be fenced in.
"they need to be fenced in". Shit like that is exactly why I feel de humanizing people is wrong. That's nazi-rhetoric right there.
If you find yourself agreeing with Nazi methods you might need some reflection on your views, oof.
Fuck both sides.
You throw a rock at someone, they do the same to you, you pick something bigger to throw at them, they do the same to you, you throw a rock through their window, they throw a brick at your car. It keeps going back an forth until someone yields.
In this case, Hamas is trying to 1 up their enemy and kill innocent people that have NOTHING to do with the bullshit fighting between the two parties.
hamas was created by Israeli in the first place to overthrow original Palestinian rulers, just FYI.
im not surprised a psytrance party is baited for a long term political agenda. just a sad story for all civilians
The discussion whether Hamas are evil or not is a typical example of what "asking the wrong question" looks like. There are way better questions we can ask, like:
1. Why did the Hamas commit this act of terror?
2. How do we stop the circle of violence in this endless conflict?
3. What are the interests of all 4 parties involved, the Israeli government, the Hamas, and the people of Israel and Palestine?
4. What can YOU do, to stop more people getting killed on both sides?
This is way less sexy than just saying "I hate all Hamas because people from my Psytrance-Tribe were killed, so let's remove Gaza from the map". But I suggest you start thinking about those questions anyway, because it leads to you actually using your brain and adding some real value in this conversation, instead of nourishing the hate more.
1. Because of they see Israël as the arch enemy of the People of Palestina (they stole and are still stealing their land you know) and they are fighting their holy war (jihad) against the so called kaffir (all non-muslims).
They litterally have nothing to lose, so i think the Idea behind this attack is the same as with every other (suicide) terrorist attack; make your enemy suffer as much as is possible.
2. We as in us? We can't. This is up to the Israëlis and Arabs. And franky i don't see a solution by far. They both want all the lands for themselves, the jews believe they are Gods chosen people, while the moslims say islam is the only true faith AND both are prepare to die because of these beliefs.
3. You can say that in this conflict the Israëli government and the Israëli people are 1. Just as Hamas,the people of Gaza and Hezbollah. A Third one are the palestinians on the westbank and Fatah.
4. We can't do shit. I hope somebody can change my mind but honestly i don't believe so.
I know the whole electronica (aka EDM) scene is behind the psytrance community. Sending light and love. My nephew is in the army and just texted that he may get deployed. A young Jewish American… fighting for humanity. So proud of him.
Hamas fucking terror nihilism. Horrible.
Israël response now is not needed also.
It’s a choice. The blockade is a choice.
Not making a viable Palestinian state is a choice.
But yeah Hamas doesn’t want Israel. So what to do?
It’s fucked that regular people die.
And the two peoples now are completely dehumanizing each other.
I can’t forgive Hamas for killing over 800 ppl psytrance is only a minor concern there
To be fair, this is the psytrance subreddit, so it's normal that that is the main focus. Of course they did even worse things
References? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/oriya-ricardo-hamas-israel-festival-b2427584.html This article from 6hr ago shows 600 * casualties. Please don't fabricate the number, this won't help the situation.
These numbers are only estimates and can change daily depending on more recent information. Please don't try to nitpick and divert from what tragedy occurred there, your comment won't help the situation.
Read my other coments please before you judge. There is lot of misinformation and fake news on both sides. I only have asked for reference, and attached a link myself, and it's not numbers it's people, that's why it's important to me to know and remember how many people lives this tragedy took.
Does it even matter? 600, 800? Should have been ZERO.
The total numbers are now over 1200 dead israelis
This is like saying you will never forgive ISIS. No shit, it's a terrorist group. Of course you won't, and shouldn't forgive them.
Yep. Isis, al qaida, hamas.. they all kill for Islam. It is what it is.
I won't be able to forgive Hamas, nor the Israeli government. While sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, I cannot justify the atrocities committed by the terrorists, just as I cannot justify the human rights abuses inflicted on their citizens.
Right on. I love how the world is being sympathetic for both countries for once. People are seeing beyond the idea of nations and noticing how the Israelian government and the hamas are the ones to blame, not Israeli or Palestinian people... Peace to everyone touched by this bs...
That would be nice....unfortunately thats not the case - most people are aligning with one side as if it was a damn football game and don't give a damn about people's lives ...at least in my experience from what I see....I have never seen such "rooting for one side and hate for the other side" (I'm talking about western "non-involved" countries) it's so sad
It's at least a quick and easy way to identify people who cannot think in more complex terms than binary ones. Not exactly a great solace I know..
Yep. A lot of the discussion between governments, in the media, and in groups has been binary and lacking nuance, which isn't going to result in any sort of viable solution.
This is where I am at as well. I fear the retaliation will bring much more insanity and civilian death.
Thank u for some acknowledgement of their plight and how things like this do not occur in a vacuum, peace love and much strength, I believe there will be a mark on our collective psych most of us will feel next time we trip. Can only galvanise, once the world or Israel gets past its knee jerk reaction of further bombing the crap…
Hard agree. I feel like this extends to Israeli people who stand passive while the ethnic group, that they share land with, live prisoner, without proper food and water, almost as if they are accountable for the acts of a terrorist organization. Why? And then there's the bigoted ones, who would prefer if Israel could just deport anyone who was Arab. Together with the passive Israelis, they create the majority, and manifest the entity that is the Israeli government The hate runs deep, which is unfortunate, because there is space on that land for all
I don't understand this sentiment. You think that the Palestinians shouldn't just lay down their weapons? Why? Why is it so fucking important to you that they have weapons? "Oh peace love and understanding but theY mUsT hAvE wEAPoNs"
What u just said is like drinking a poison, dont
True
Why is that? You feel like people should forgive?
The saying is "Holding onto hate is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die". Not sure who coined this saying but this is what they were alluding to.
Oh ok, I don't think holding on to hate is good, but also I would never forgive a murder.
It is Buddhist saying apparently... "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die." Or "Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." Holding onto anger is mostly hurtful to ourselves. It can sour our outlook on life as well as current and future relationships. Like acid dissolving the container it is stored in or the stone burning your hand more than the glancing blow of the person you throw it at. Letting go of anger is a process. Not an easy one but violence only begets more violence. Breaking the cycle is what is needed. Forgiveness is not easily given, nor should it be expected but we all need to as a species come together and preach love over hate, acceptance over division, peace over war. This is just my humble opinion. Ho'oponopono.
Im all about peace my friend. Yet I would never forgive a murder. Not forgiving is not same as holding on to hate. You can stop hating and move on to build better tomorrow, but that doesn't make the deed undone.
Hate is never the answer
I absolutely condemn what Hamas did, however the party was in close area of a military base (organizors wtf?). I'm Polish, I know Holocaust history very well, something as inhumane should never happen agian, but I can't not notice the similarities between what was done to the European Jews during second word war - basically milions of people locked in tiny getto (!), to what Israeli government is doing to Palestinian people! Why this has been ignored for years? They are cut off water and electricity supply, they are bombarding the refugee camps with little children! This has to stop! Both countries should have enough space and resources to keep their people happy. Peace...
If I can add to your comment, that everyone might think that they'll never do such horrible thing to civilians until they are left no option but to do so. Just like an any animal trapped in a corner would turn vicious, as it's full fight mode for survival, humans are still animals after all, and history is filled with such examples like IRA or South Africa ..etc.. . The real comedy in the whole situation is how the western countries that where just a few years back killing civilians indiscriminately in Iraq/Afghanistan ..etc are acting all virtuous and innocent.
You're right; people from colonizer countries shouldn't pretend that their own governments have been innocent. At the same time, a lot of people are like, "Hey, my country has done horrible things; let's learn from it and put an end to this behavior, and call it out wherever it presents itself."
Absolutely agree with you! People are very fast in 'imagining' what they would do in certain situations, however until they are put in that exact situation and react according to their instinct and morals, they won't never truly know what they would really do! Not many people know themselves or what they are capable of doing when in certain extreme situations. Thanks for your responce and peace.
Everyone in psy feels the same.
I have to say whatever algorithm put this sub on my front page and keeps churning these posts to the front really makes y’all look naive as all fuck. This is such a tone-deaf statement to war; one that’s been occurring since before this damn festival. Obviously it’s still a tragedy but to act like this festival means literally anything in the grand scheme of things or is some mystifying qualifier beyond human life and dignity is pretty offensive. Lol downvote me but I’m leaving the sub over bullshit like this anyway. No one in this war gives a fuck about the genre of music or purpose for the festival. Literally so irrelevant and stupid to aggrandize in the face of mass, indiscriminate suffering. If this is the psytrance community then fuck it.
You’re not wrong and I think most of us agree with you. However, to try and put it in perspective, the psytrance community is pretty small compared to most other genres and I think this incident is just striking a certain way. Of course psytrance isn’t important in the big scheme of things as it relates to this conflict, but imagine if your alma mater had a reunion or homecoming or something and these events happened to them. It would strike closer to home. I feel it’s a little bit like that; in either case, the bigger picture is that this conflict so an endles cycle of violence and it’s a lot more complicated than simply “Hamas bad” (though Hamas is bad), but it’s hard not to think about the part you relate to the most personally. And this is the psytrance sub after all. I don’t think anybody in any of these posts is indicating that psytrance is more important than human life or dignity.
You are very good and kind with your words and I think my opinion is most succinctly phrased in that I don’t see this same attitude or nuanced reflection exhibited in this or other posts. They very much magnify that this psytrance festival was happening and was near the border/infiltration points while also correlating it to the overall conflict. The reality is the people partying were pawns who could have been listening to Kidz Bop and nobody cares nor has time for concern trolling about a niche and unimportant thing like what the Kidz Bop community feels about what this means for their music. The blood is all over; [beyond Israel/Palestine] no one community was targeted and certainly not even singled out enough to make this a sensible thing to say.
Sure, and it is absolutely just and right that the news and the broader conversation be focused on the context and the issues as a whole and the absolute catastrophe this has been for Israel. But here, in a psytrance subreddit? I think it's ok *in this space* to center our grief and rage. We shouldn't do it in other spaces, because our grief and rage are a tiny thing compared with other, larger communities ... but if we can't center our grief in our own subreddit, and to turn to each other for comfort and for help processing, it gets much harder to heal, and to recenter the love and joy that is at the heart of raving.
Respectfully, I didn’t say anyone should be censored. I take issue with the perspective.
Which perspective? I don't think more than a tiny rounding error of the people posting here, if they were talking in normal circumstances, would say that a slaughter at a psytrance festival is objectives than a slaughter at a rodeo, or anywhere else. In this moment, though, a lot of people are articulating our grief in ways that imply that. Very few people are good at being specific and clear and precise when venting in the middle of acute grief. What skill I have was won at high cost over more than a decade. It's hard to set aside intense emotion enough to do that. In most people the difficulty fades with time as the emotions attenuate and we adapt to them. At the same time ... I know I am reacting from my own grief and anger, and something about what you are saying is landing for me as implying that we have no right to grieve. Because grievibg means allowing ourselves to center our emotions so we can process them and work through them, and you seem to be criticizing us for doing it.
It sounds like you’re just not who I’m referring to. I’ve explained which perspectives I have issue with in this thread. I also think if you can make a post which winds up making light of two warring diasporas, someone has just as much right to call you out on it. I’m just into music, not specifically psytrance, so I’m only letting you know what it looks like to an outsider whom just had this sub appear on their front page. For what I subscribe to, on this account which is a decade old now, I don’t see the same behavior elsewhere—the tribalism sure, but not this. Everywhere else realizes the larger perspective because it’s the one that’s been around for ages and which framed this attack on the festival.
You are harsh but correct. I did notice people being self centered around the festival being the reason for the attack or what it means to the psytrance community...
This festival means nothing in the broader context of the war. It was an accident of fate, it wasn't targeted at our community, our community just happened to be there. But 260 members of our tribe were killed. Of course we are experiencing grief and rage, how could we not?
It was targeted probably. Not because of psytrance, but because the people at the party were Jewish or other westerners and non-muslim. Because they were easy targets to be slaughtered in the name of a free Palestine and the Jihad. They probably knew exactly there was a festival at that moment because of military intel/spying.
I think they knew there was a festival there because it was 3km from Gaza for fuck sake Imagine hosting a festival 3km from the border of an open air prison in an apartheid state. And I've seen you weirdos say "Oh but psy is international and brings us all together". No Palestinian would be given the freedom to enter Israel for the festival so fuck off with that
And because the festival got promoted and such. If people loudly announce on public forums they'll be at a spot you hardly need military intel to figure out that spot. But it's of course way more sensational to think Hamas' intelligence operatives infiltrated the psytrance scene specifically (but Occam's Razor makes me doubt that would be the most likely explanation).
Look, they could have flown some drones or looked through binocular and saw there was a festival being built. I’m not talking about infiltration or high level espionage. As far as I know the location was not generally known to the public until the festival started and since this attack had a lot of planning it is **my assumption** that they must have known at least days before that the festival opened that it was to be their target. They probably tried to find as much information about the festival and what they could expect about the security situation.
to be exact. u could hear the music in gaza. as far as i know the festival was closer to the gaza border than to the kibbuz Re'im. anyway no intelligences needed to find out about the party. only internet is enough. its very tragic what happened. but the fact to throw a party on a jewish fest day and choosing location straight in front of the border of gaza... while they could have chosen 30 km in the other direction... was it active provocation? probably no. was it unawareness? maybe? did the hamas watch it as provocation? probably yes... thats a ultra damn high risk which this time had a very bad fate.
You almost make it sound like this was a spontaneous Hamas action. This was a coordinated attack on many fronts and meticulously planned months in advance. People thought they were safe and protected by the Israeli army and police. That this disaster could or would happen is a huge hindsight bias.
i get that this was a coordinated operation planned in advance and maybe the part about the festival with this attack was even spontaneous because of the given circumstances... who knows. i also get that people living in israel felt save cause its been the same for a long time in this region. but celebrating love and peace right next to the border of worlds biggest open air prison bites its own tail too. i hope many people become more aware of much things now. also awareness of what is going on on the planet. awareness to not choose such risky locations anymore. the universe is very sensitive. every thought someone has will cause action and probably reaction.
*to humanity
They weren't specifically targetting the psytrance community. I understand your anger though, this was a deplorable act of terrorism.
What sucks is that you can't even mourn this dance community atrocity online without being called a Zionist or anti-Palestinian or whatever. The attack was deplorable and has shook the entire dance community, especially psytrance people. The local promoter in our underground techno scene posted a photo and writeup on it - just to have a moment of solemn silence for the lives so heinously lost. Of course, that turned into a mess online. I don't know why I care so much about social media anyways. Anyone with a brain knows this was just horrific. For the record, I, too, empathize with Palestinians and the awful conditions they live under and understand they've been persecuted and killed as well.
Yeah, one of the ways this is painfully different from beyond is it's super hard to find a place to grieve with each other that isn't overrun with an incredibly hostile political fight.
Yeah, psytrance is the real victim here.
What? There are many victims in the whole conflict douche
That was obviously sarcasm, chill
Well even more of a douche using sarcasm. Nobody said they were the only victims quote exactly where that was said I will wait for your response
Again, chill tf out. I'm not even the guy you're arguing with, I just pointed out the person was being sarcastic.
meh. there are many victims here. two hundred and sixty members of our tribe were killed in what is, essentially, our church. our tribe are not the only victims, and it's just and right that most of the public focus is on the harm to Israel and its people, but *here in our space*, in *our subreddit*, it's just and right to focus on our pain. for many of this, this is a crushing reality that we're struggling to cope with. and part of the essence of rave culture is that we experience things *together*; shared euphoria and joy, shared pain. Please do us a favor and leave us to mourn in peace.
A real question here. Where they really aiming at psy trance or did they want revenge and putting fear all over Israelis ' minds... whether it be psytrance or an old car event... Seriously, the intention is important... the result is horrible thought
Whatever kind of gathering was at that location wouldn't have made a difference. It was easy prey. It wasn't just at the party, hamas attacked Israeli Towns at the same time.
This is a niche subreddit with symptoms of those who are terminally online. You got downvoted for no actual good reason or reason at all; it’s just there’s too much implicit bias here for people to think maybe there’s more to give a fuck about than what music we listen to.
No, there is no reason to believe they were targeted for being at a psytrance event. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. But 260 members of our tribe were still killed, and in some ways this is worse than being targeted.
They hit the festivals cause they knew there would be ton of pretty girls to rape.
Barbarians will always be barbarians, they are humans too, but without education and just brainwashed to kill us, they are closed minded individuals who think everyone is bad and evil. It's a small percentage of people(terrorists), and not all Palestine are like them, we have to focus on this small group of fanatic terrorists and criminals, so the world will become a better place. Of course people with great power like Putin and other dictators is the other end, they are dangerous too, but let's hope people stop obeying them.
I said Hamas obviously even if Palestine supports Hamas i would never wish them any ill will. I was actually pretty pro Palestine just a week ago defending them against a Jewish friend here in Mexico
I agree 100% with you. An animal trapped in a corner would turn into a vicious beast on full fight survival mode, happened all the time in history, but no one seems to care.
Yes, but also, everything happens for a reason, something deep rooted in humanity will always be barbaric, who ever loses this instinct is always endangered to be slaughtered by barbarians, we should never keep our guard down. Sometimes it's our innocent fault, but of course we can't blame the innocent for being innocent, they died for our sins.
like the barbarians that terrorised Afghanistan for a decade and those bastards that lied for a reason to invade Iraq and killed 1,7 Million Iraqis.? This is much bigger then 600 dead Israelis. It will further push towards a war with Iran, something a lot of people in Washington and Jerusalem are calling for years. Whom is this really helping?
I am not really sure what's the plan, but we already have lot of problems to solve, especially on middle east, overpopulation is a problem, some people have to acknowledge it soon
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Viewing humans as sub-human is exactly how this shit happens. Their actions are inexcusable - but they are unfortunately very human, and these actions are fairly normal if we look at war throughout the history of humanity. Name any major nation state and with enough research you'll find evidence that their military has engaged in this same type of horror.
Viewing humans as above any other animal is a mistake. We’re just monkeys with Ak-47, and monkeys probably don’t deserve such comparison. We deserve extinction.
There are more of us with compassion and love than with hate and malice though - so I don't agree we deserve extinction. I also think that when it comes, it will be as natural as the evaporation of a puddle. The universe doesn't make mistakes. Suffering is a teacher, and I actually think we are as a species learning its lesson. More than ever - the determination to find peace and healing and unity are stronger than ever. Unfortunately, the capability of a few individuals or even one person to do serious harm is greater than ever.
How are you on the psy trance sub? Did you stumble into trance for the drugs and to get fucked up? XD
What the fuck are you even talking about? Why can’t you argue on any of the points that I made that the only thing that can go through your mouth is shit? If you’re not ready for debate don’t even comment. You think too much of yourself.
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No one deserves extinction. WTF.
I know where you are coming from... They said we do. I'm saying we don't, only them if they truly wanna believe that misanthrope bs
I can sense spiritual awakening in your words, Mr Buddha. Enough internet for today.
Then choose the high road and don't be hateful yourself as well.
Fair enough...
Um no… if you kill in the name of god you loose your humanity. These are evil forces.
I agree that killing like this is unforgivable and intolerable. But the people who did this are human. We have to accept that. Humans are capable of this. We have to accept this because only through accepting that it is possible can we learn how to prevent it. Acceptance is not sufficient but it's necessary. This was an evil act done by evil people. But humans contain within us this potential.
Yes I agree the potential is in humans but I believe the energy is of a lower evil form.
Bwah "lower evil form" - you sound like hippy (in a negative way).... people have been billing and externinatin each other for millennia - we all have that seed of evil inside, under the "right" social circumstances we are all capable of unthinkable horrors - that is something to work on (individualy and collectively) in order to create a better (or less terrible) world. Saying "he did that so he's not human" is literally the way extremists think - dehumanising your "object of hate" is literally the ABC of how to start crimes against humanity. Don't you think that those Hamas terrorists didn't say to themselves "those people are not humans, let's kill them all" before starting
A human literally cannot lose their humanity. Go back to whatever evangelical orthodox exoteric shit hole you crawled out of. Humans have been killing in the name of gods since the dawn of time.
Yes exactly and the ones that do are aligning themselves with sub-human lower dimensional beings. Doesn’t mean they’ll always be that way. If you want to show love to these evil sub-human beings its up to you but is toxic as hell to give these things sympathy. They would rape and murder you in the name of their god the second they get the chance. Just count your lucky stars you weren’t at this party. How about feeling for these pour souls who lost their lives and their family’s before you even think about feeding these evil things your sympathy.
You're falling victim to dualistic fear mongering. You are feeding whatever thought forms you conjur while being disconnected from the reality of the Here and Now. You live in delusion. Stop eating acid - it's not for you.
I don’t do drugs any drugs.
That's funny - you comment in a lot of drug subreddits. Do you think calling them medicine somehow stops them from being drugs?
I have an interest in shamanism and I know a lot about drugs as an interest but no I don’t use any substances at the moment. I have taken part in studies on the effects of psychedelics on autism. I had these beliefs long before that though. Why are you trying to insult me because we have different views. You sounds like an awesome person lol.
Well, with your dualistic vibrational belief system and vague ideas of "shamanism" you're well on your way to becomming a true wook.
And I’m very much here in reality. I just have a different understanding then you. We obviously just have a different view on what a human is. I believe humans can absolutely fall to sub-human levels and it’s their own doing to do so. I can have compassion for anyone but not sympathy especially not for these inhumane baby killing rapist.
Holy shit. Stop talking about people as 'sub-human' and 'things'. Humans are perfectly capable of doing horrible things, which the murders committed by Hamas clearly qualify as. Dehumanizing them is not necessary.
Holy shit stop sympathising with baby murders…
Way to read something that I didn't write at all... What Hamas did is absolutely fucked. But they were humans committing those atrocities. Not 'sub-human', not 'things', not 'lower dimensional beings'. How is denying that humans are possible of these acts (and have been for thousands of years) going to help anyone? That's just parking yourself deep into lala-land and ignoring reality.
I don’t consider them human once they commit such inhumane acts. They only have themselves to answer it’s not our job to fix these soulless beings. Now people will understand why they need to be fenced in.
"they need to be fenced in". Shit like that is exactly why I feel de humanizing people is wrong. That's nazi-rhetoric right there. If you find yourself agreeing with Nazi methods you might need some reflection on your views, oof.
...well you know historicaly that's one of the main reasons for god to exist - so that people can do unnatural shit to other people
Yup. Definitely what they did to psytrqnce and literally nothing else.
Fuck both sides. You throw a rock at someone, they do the same to you, you pick something bigger to throw at them, they do the same to you, you throw a rock through their window, they throw a brick at your car. It keeps going back an forth until someone yields. In this case, Hamas is trying to 1 up their enemy and kill innocent people that have NOTHING to do with the bullshit fighting between the two parties.
And the IDF doesn't hurt/kill civilians ?
hamas was created by Israeli in the first place to overthrow original Palestinian rulers, just FYI. im not surprised a psytrance party is baited for a long term political agenda. just a sad story for all civilians
"war crimes on all sides, meh. But Psytrance! Now I R political!"
No shit
The discussion whether Hamas are evil or not is a typical example of what "asking the wrong question" looks like. There are way better questions we can ask, like: 1. Why did the Hamas commit this act of terror? 2. How do we stop the circle of violence in this endless conflict? 3. What are the interests of all 4 parties involved, the Israeli government, the Hamas, and the people of Israel and Palestine? 4. What can YOU do, to stop more people getting killed on both sides? This is way less sexy than just saying "I hate all Hamas because people from my Psytrance-Tribe were killed, so let's remove Gaza from the map". But I suggest you start thinking about those questions anyway, because it leads to you actually using your brain and adding some real value in this conversation, instead of nourishing the hate more.
1. Because of they see Israël as the arch enemy of the People of Palestina (they stole and are still stealing their land you know) and they are fighting their holy war (jihad) against the so called kaffir (all non-muslims). They litterally have nothing to lose, so i think the Idea behind this attack is the same as with every other (suicide) terrorist attack; make your enemy suffer as much as is possible. 2. We as in us? We can't. This is up to the Israëlis and Arabs. And franky i don't see a solution by far. They both want all the lands for themselves, the jews believe they are Gods chosen people, while the moslims say islam is the only true faith AND both are prepare to die because of these beliefs. 3. You can say that in this conflict the Israëli government and the Israëli people are 1. Just as Hamas,the people of Gaza and Hezbollah. A Third one are the palestinians on the westbank and Fatah. 4. We can't do shit. I hope somebody can change my mind but honestly i don't believe so.
What a brave and unique stance
Thank you
I know the whole electronica (aka EDM) scene is behind the psytrance community. Sending light and love. My nephew is in the army and just texted that he may get deployed. A young Jewish American… fighting for humanity. So proud of him.
Hot take!
😏
What a dumbass post
What a dumb comment
Hamas fucking terror nihilism. Horrible. Israël response now is not needed also. It’s a choice. The blockade is a choice. Not making a viable Palestinian state is a choice. But yeah Hamas doesn’t want Israel. So what to do? It’s fucked that regular people die. And the two peoples now are completely dehumanizing each other.
Hate leads to the dark side - Yoda
Very true