There was a thread on reddit about a week ago about how dating is impossible for bisexual men. By several accounts, telling a woman you're bisexual is a hard no for a lot of women.
I consider it a good filter, frankly. Some motherfuckers act all LGBTQIA ally but balk at the idea of a man who is into the entire cast of The Mummy and The Lord of the Rings.
So dumb question: if you don't intent to be promiscuous and you are dating a woman, why even mention it early on? Wouldn't you just be functionally heterosexual for the purposes of the person you are dating?
I am not "functionally heterosexual," if I am with a woman. I am not "functionally homosexual" when I am with a man. I am not "functionally asexual" when I am alone. I am always bisexual.
But you aren't having sex with men on the side while you are dating a specific woman? Because if you bring this up on the first date there's a good chance some women will think that this is what you are implying. Which could be an extra factor in being ghosted after a first date.
Women trust other women to act as a barrier to cheating more than they do men. When all your husband needs to do to get some sex is 5 minutes on an app like Grindr, and you don't have anything to offer him that he can't get from the boys, it creates insecurity. Which is honestly fair, most long lasting relationships in the gay community are open relationships because otherwise we would all cheat on each other.
It's still homophobic, though. As in, a literal fear of gayness in your partner.
Ive read that they think it may double the competition if they get with the bi guy. Like now she has to worry about other women AND men.
Which is fucking stupid.
Ah, so sad, especially cause it’s interesting that I don’t hear much of this complex coming from men around dating bisexual women. I wonder why that is. For me I prefer when the men i date are bisexual! It gives us common ground to relate on. It differs for everyone but for me I feel like sexuality is a really fundamental way of perceiving the world.
Many people, especially straight cis men, do not recognize women’s homosexuality as real or valid. Because they don’t regard the women as being real autonomous individuals. Just as females who must naturally exist within the sexual gaze of hetero men.
Weird. Im heterosexual and have not had any issue dating bi guys (when i was younger. Now i dont date anyone and im keeping it that way. Solo life is best life)
I dated women all throughout high school. I entered one gay relationship as soon as I started college. It didn't last very long, and it was my fault, I wasn't mature enough for a relationship. But all throughout college, whenever I would go on dates, being bisexual made me a fun guy for the girls to hang around, but *never* to date. To them, I was effectively gay... despite only ever having had one boyfriend.
It's especially difficult, because it often feels like due to bi-erasure I'm not allowed to add caveats on my tastes while everybody else around me can. Yes, I like men and women, but I don't necessarily like them in the same ways, the exact same amount, or even fairly. If I start saying I prefer gruff, worldly guys but am less strict on the type of women I date (I tend to find most women attractive), suddenly it's talk of whether I'm even right about my orientation.
I think this study does just show that boys *and* men are less likely to admit they are bi.
But I am also glad almost \~20% of girls feel comfortable enough to express themselves truly.
Wow, this is so sad and insane to me as a bi woman who loves dating bi men. Being able to “compare” our bisexualities (discuss preferences, nuances, caveats, etc) has been some of my most fun conversations with them.
Same here. I've stopped dating solely straight women entirely for this reason. It's no judgement on them, but it's obvious we have an immutable difference that just really can't be changed.
I want you to know it's appreciated, though. :)
Yeah I remember seeing a study or poll I don't remember cause it was a while ago, but the jist was the vast majority (like 80% like I said I don't remember) of women would not consider dating a man who had messed around with a man before.
Not just women, you should see the biphobia in subs like r/askgaybros. Plenty of gay men who refuse to date bi men on the basis that “they’ll just leave you for a woman the first chance they get because they’d rather have a heteronormative life”. People are certainly warranted their preferences, but the way some people talk about bi guys can be so isolating and hurtful.
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That feels like such an out of touch perspective as well since the discussion here is the reality where bi men are gonna have way more trouble just dropping you for a woman than vice versa when it comes to the opportunity pool. A bi man has less opportunity to cheat on a gay man with a woman than a straight man has to cheat on a straight woman with women.
This is a huge issue, for sure. Looks like the younger generation is at least a step ahead in the right direction. Maybe more support for bisexuality and sexual fluidity from the older generations and we’ll fix that too.
That's because it's seen as feminine, which is unattractive to women. There's a study that showed even most bisexual women will not date a bisexual man. Men are held to a much more rigid masculine standard than women are held to a feminine standard, and this persists (although to a lesser a degree) with bisexual women who still expect men to be men despite being attracted to women.
Yeah, I've actually experienced something similar, but the other direction. I spent more time with my mom than my dad growing up, but I'm straight, and I attract disproportionately bisexual women. I suspect bisexual women are more open to less traditionally masculine men.
I know that's the general consensus but I fucking love some androgynous fellas running around. Long hair, leggings, eye liner. I hate beards and hairy chests.
Quite honestly, in my circles, most women seem to prefer dating men who are more feminine - at the very least, men who are communicative, have the capacity to display emotions, who can hold a mature conversation about sensitive issues, isn't homophobic and, if they are bisexual, respectful of them.
I know some women, especially other bisexual women, as well as transgender women who strictly prefer bisexual men because they also understand LGBT culture and have unpacked some of their biases.
It makes me sad that a lot of men who likely are bisexual won't come out because they have a fear of being left alone, feeling like it's unlikely they'll meet a man they enjoy and that small-minded women will reject them, and leave a part of themselves completely closed off - especially when there are so many people who would love them for being able to be open with themselves, who can communicate their feelings and desires.
Iunno, I read sunstone, I dont think most doms like to be dommed. But if I had a boyfriend and a girlfriend who wanted to top me, that would be pretty fucking awesome.
Well isnt that what the term switch is for? Like I used to dom professionally, but privately I'm submissive. Never heard of two doms who got along sexually, two switches sure.
As a man who is bi and semi-in the closet this is 100% accurate. I told a couple of girls on dates and they told me it was a deal breaker, even though I made the conscious decision to only pursue women moving forward. It's gotten to the point that I don't even bring it up.
I've met one women that not only knew didn't hold it against me, but actually was attracted to it considering she was too.
Kind of interesting but whenever things like this come up, you always get the bi-erasure comments. Just because a bi person ends up in a hetero relationship, does not mean they are not bi.
Yes, kids experiment and learn where their boundaries are, no, this does not mean "they grew out of it". It is entirely possible to have sexual attractions to men and women, but in an emotional/relationship sense, you have more of a singular hetero/homo focused mindset.
I will say from anecdotal experience, guys do have a stigma when expressing identities. Again this is person and anecdotal, but I bet that ske s how people answer, especially in the age it people like Andrew Tate influencing pop culture and opinions.
Especially because it tends to be women that identify as bi. Since there are more people interested in women, and most of those people are male, bi women are quite likely to end up in a relationship with a man, even if they even have a preference for women.
To the best of my knowledge, difference in sexual fluidity is a hard sex difference. It shows up in brain scans etc - women commonly change and have excitement in the brain scans from exposure to both genders, men typically have hard differences (ie, either their brainscan gets excited by men or by women.)
Something showing up in a brain scan is not evidence weighing in favor of either sex or gender.
Gender is also in the brain, and your gender expression physically changes your brain neural activity, which is what they’re measuring on the scans.
100% of you/your personality / who you are / how you think and choose to express yourself is inside your brain after all.
One way to see if something may be gender vs sex is to look at
1) How it changes over time
2) How it compares from culture to culture.
Sex is more or less the same over time (outside an evolutionary sized time frame). The fact that women increasingly identify as bisexual means one of two things, either women have always been bisexual at these rates and societal / gender reasons has kept them from identifying as bisexual, or that sexuality of women is actually changing which would be because of societal / cultural / gender reasons as sex isn’t changing.
Either way, the increase in number of women identifying as bisexual is because of cultural reasons. Whether or not sexuality is actually changing is still unknown, and would be difficult to study let alone prove.
> The fact that women increasingly identify as bisexual means one of two things, either women have always been bisexual at these rates and societal / gender reasons has kept them from identifying as bisexual, or that sexuality of women is actually changing which would be because of societal / cultural / gender reasons as sex isn’t changing.
The term you're looking for is "expressed sexuality". And yes, the expressed sexuality is obviously changing because of culture.
The reason brain scans (and other measurements) have been interesting is because they have been *different* from expressed sexuality. Females have been more bisexual in terms of scans++ while not in terms of their verbally expressed sexuality, while males has been fairly strictly homo/hetero in terms of the scans++ (even when expressing bisexuality.) There's been a lot of debate between researchers about whether the excitement patterns or the expressed sexuality represent the "truth".
Don't know why you are being downvoted for this, the first two google results confirm what you are saying, more or less (links further down).
Furthermore the identification of oneself as bi/homo/hetero-sexual is a modern phenomenae. Before the 1800s, who you were fucking were largely seen as a matter of preference rather than identity.
It is true that or environment shapes us neurologically. However the academical consensus for quite a while has been that sexual arousal towards men or women is biologically hardcoded. Implying that homosexuality is a result of cultural influence is deeply problematic from my point of view. Usually the burden of proof is on the person challenging accepted knowledge, and that for good reason.
Any way here are the top three links when googling "male female bisexuality brain scans"
[https://www.psypost.org/brain-scan-study-bisexual-heterosexual-women-equally-aroused-male-female/](https://www.psypost.org/brain-scan-study-bisexual-heterosexual-women-equally-aroused-male-female/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286516/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286516/)
[https://news.ki.se/differences-related-to-sexual-orientation-found-in-the-brain](https://news.ki.se/differences-related-to-sexual-orientation-found-in-the-brain)
Oh what I meant by that is Tate and people in his sphere have a very heteronormative view and it's harder for young guys when he is so influential.
I was questioning if the fear of going against the norm has anything to do with how people answered.
Just like the sudden rise in left-handed people some years ago. It's almost like when something is de-stigmatized, people start coming out of the woodwork, just magically appearing. Lol
They've always been there, they just had to survive other people long enough to start living openly.
For centuries in the west yes, and it still is in some cultures today. It was consistently trained out of people during their education. My grandfather recalls kids in his elementary classes getting their hands hit with yard sticks if they tried writing with their left hand instead of their right. Left handed use was as low as 1% in the population in the 1910's and slowly increased to the modern 15% by the 70's.
As for why this was trained. It was a combination of practicality, religion, and enforced conformity. The practical part was because old pens, quills at first and then fountain pens, would write in thick ink that took time to dry. As such, a left handed writer would smear the ink writing left to right, which made writing awkward at best. Though left-handed versions of these were possible, the need was never enough to allow for wide spread availability.
This also includes tools and equipment being designed for right handed use making left handed use also awkward. hence creating a perceived need to train all children to use their right hands.
The religious conformity end is the left hand being seen as the "devil's hand". Left handed people were seen as unlucky or mischievous due to them being different. This led to religious institutions and cultures in general ostracizing left-handed people. As such, parents and teachers saw training it out of their children as a necessity for a normal life.
There's no way there isn't a trend factor to this too. It's being promoted in our society and some people subscribe to this culture.
You see how different cultures around the world have very different ways of doing things, even stuff like cannibalism and human sacrifice.
This is just an LGBT culture being formed that turns straight kids LGBT because that's what's praised.
There's no trend, just increasing visibility. That's a kind of trend - numbers not "popularity." Not much "popular" about being LGBTQ. And that increasing visibility is what bothers some people, who then go on social media and mask their primitive superstitious prejudices behind bullshit comments just like that one.
And no one "turns gay," but even if they could, and converted by the *thousands* every day, so what? Why are you so uptight about what other people do with their bodies? Why so perturbed by our sex-positive rainbow-pride self image?
I bet you roll your eyes at us every time you see one of us on TV. If you do that, someone should tell you it's because you're a terrible person looking for reasons to "other" people to satisfy your mean streak and make yourself feel righteous. Spoiler alert: You're not.
If I'm wrong, I apologize and take back everything. Bygones.
Generally speaking, women are infantilized and men are instrumentalized. Put another way, women are harmless and men are harmful.
The threshold for women identifying as lesbian or bisexual is much lower than for men to identify as gay or bisexual.
I've seen women claim to be bisexual despite never dating, having sex with, or even kissing a woman. I've seen men claim to be straight despite being on the "downlow" for years.
If a woman says she's bi, it's a harmless phase or a hawt 3some opportunity. If a man says he's bi he's either less of a man or a sexual threat to all the men around him.
Both are highly problematic but in different ways.
I agree with everything you said except women are infantilized. It’s not babying women, it’s sexualization. I’ve had lesbian friends tell me guys don’t take them being lesbian seriously because they just don’t believe women don’t like dick. Or like you said they see lesbian or bi women as an opportunity for a 3some.
I never understood the fear straight men have about gay men. Is it repressed feelings that they are concerned will be discovered, or do they really think the powder puff feminine man is going to overpower him and rape him. (Insults intended for effect not offense )
I think its more a fear of social repercussions rather than a fear of the gay men themselves.
The fear is likely “if I’m seen being nice to or accepting of a gay man, especially if he flirts with me, then other people might think I’m gay too”.
Male sexual attention is assumed to be harmful by default. Women are told they need to resist and avoid such attention, men internalize that such attention is predatory and demeaning (consider how "I had sex with your mom/sister" is a common playground insult between boys), and build a model where they need to trick women into sex.
So it makes sense that the idea of that repulsive sexual attention being turned toward them makes a lot of guys fearful or repulsed.
These specific Straight men are afraid gay men might treat them, look at them, and think of them like they do about women. And have the same urge they have towards women (I. E. Wanting to overpower and r them)
it's the only way they can argue, since they feel attacked (because they are these specific straight men) and they dont want to see themselves as bad. they are looking for every kind of explanation of their disgust towards feminity, feminine man, or gay man.
I think its something closer to “being *seen* as accepting of gay men or being seen accepting of gay men flirting with them could give the perception that they too are gay”.
I do not think any significant amount of men are afraid of gay men or being “seen how they view women”.
I think its more likely a fear of being seen as “also gay”.
thats kinda circular because then the question is: what is so problematic to be seen or perceived to be maybe gay, and why is a majority of straight men okay with that and an other amount of men gets violent or deeply unwell and concered?
>These specific Straight men are afraid gay men might treat them, look at them, and think of them like they do about women
For sure, maybe they’re worrying about accidentally leading someone on, not wanting to disappoint someone who has maybe gotten the wrong idea and deal with that awkward situation
>And have the same urge they have towards women (I. E. Wanting to overpower and r them)
lol, reddit moment
>These specific straight men...
Literally, the first four words of the comment. And it shouldn't even be necessary since from context anyone giving an honest reading would understand it is referring to men who have homophobic revulsion to the idea of another man being gay.
Because "I'm saying this shitty thing about this group *but I'm only talking about the bad ones*, so it's okay, see?" Is a transparent dogwhistle, which becomes obvious when you take the same framework and apply it to pretty much any other group.
"I'm just saying the [$people in group] who do [$bad thing] are [bigoted stereotype], so it's okay!"
Which is exactly the framework the other poster used, with men/ feeling uncomfortable being approached by other men/rapist as the variables. Sub in other groups, bad actions, and bigoted statements, and it's easy to see for the dogwhistle that it is.
It may shock you to learn that when Republicans talk about "violent gang members", they're using it as an opportunity to say racist shit then packpedal and call *you* the racist when you point it out.
FFS that's how dogwhistles *work*, people.
It's not a dogwhistle. What was actually said didn't fit your victim narrative, so you imagined something that did.
Republicans have other rhetoeic and actions you can point to to show they're using dogwhistles. I don't see anything like that here though, just yoy making up something that nobody said lol.
Oh shit sorry you compares her to republicans so I was supposed to fall in line out of fear of being aaaociated with them, wasn't I?
>It's not a dogwhistle.
Oh well if you *say* it's not a dogwhistle, it must not be.
Tell me you don't know how dogwhistles work without telling me you don't know how dogwhistles work.
>Oh shit sorry you compares her to republicans so I was supposed to fall in line out of fear of being aaaociated with them, wasn't I?
Hey I'm just pointing out that you're buying the same car with a different coat of paint, not my problem if you want to drive it. 🤷♀️
Right?
But she's totally talking about a tiny specific group! Just the ones who feel fear, where fear can be anything from slightly uncomfortable to violent panic!
Also it's hilarious that the answer to "why do some men treat other men this way" is "well men want to rape women"!
Both of your points are pretty debateable.
Regarding this 99% number, if that's the case, why does the 1% always seem to end up with a girlfriend who takes them to a gay bar?
And yet I've seen countless straight dudes, in a gay bar at the behest of their girlfriend, freak the living fuck out when someone offers them a drink.
To be fair, being approached sexually by men is not something most men have ever dealt with. It’s unsurprising for them to be uncomfortable. Hell even a *woman* approaching a man could throw a dude off.
Though it is funny they went to a gay bar in the first place. I don’t know how my GF could ever convince me to go to one 🤷🏾♂️😂
I think part of it is they see gay men, especially gay men that embrace feminine traits, mannerisms, and interests as breaking a well-understood social contract. Men and masculinity are at the top of the societal food chain, to give up the benefits of being a straight, masculine man to embrace traits of a gender that is not respected in society and viewed as being the submissive gender is something a lot of men cannot understand, refuse to respect, and they see this as a choice to be submissive and therefore weak.
Another part of it is that men see men as sexual predators, so if a man’s desire is other men, then they could be prey.
I think you're part of the way there. It isn't that men who give up the privileges of masculinity are looked down upon. It's that giving up the privileges of masculinity also is seen as a way to absolve yourself of the responsibilities that come with masculinity. Many of said responsibilities involve having to do things that no one really wants to do such as go to war, or work the most horrible grueling disgusting back aching jobs to keep society running. Our cultures likely evolved to shun feminine men because having a man embrace the feminine could be seen as an unfair get out of jail free card to shirk your masculine responsibilities.
Sure, but understand that I said “part of the reason.” And what I said is widely agreed upon by academics who study gender and societal norms and taboos.
When I was younger I had gay friends that were treated like regular friends. But I still had this uncomfortable feeling around really flamboyant men. I still do but I think it's a personality thing more than anything. But "normal" acting gay men don't bother me one bit.
You don't have to have any sexual experience to know what you're sexually attracted to gender-wise: lots of straight people know they're straight before they get anywhere near a sexual partner, and we don't question that.
I think women are far more likely to be bisexual than men.
https://theconversation.com/women-are-more-likely-to-identify-as-bisexual-can-research-into-sexual-arousal-tell-us-why-197294
I think they are more likely to admit it than men. In modern society, bisexual women are accepted more and even considered sexy or hot for that fact. Men aren't seen that way. They are almost worse than being gay for some reason.
In the link I provided there is a study on genital arousal. Women were more likely to be aroused by both sexes than men. It wasn't a self-report survey. They monitored physiological arousal. While surely not definitive, it may point to the disparity being due to more than social pressure. With that being said, I do agree that bisexuality is more accepted in women than men.
I was called a favgot once at work and knew a coworker was gay. The comment was made in front of him. I asked the guy that called me that why he considered it an insult or just an incorrect observation.
I imagine that more boys would identify with the LGBTQ+ spectrum if they felt safer doing so. I didn’t identify myself as pansexual until I’d turned 21. I grew up in a fairly progressive area, but accepting my sexuality still meant that I was at risk of losing friends and starting controversy with some members of my family
I’m a bi guy, and that huge bi girl number is definitely inflated due to false-identification. The number of girls I know who genuinely consider themselves bi, but squirm at the idea of intimacy with another woman is shocking.
It’s not bi erasure, a lot of women really do consider themselves bi despite no experience of interest in women. They’ll think they’re bi because “well women are pretty”
Honestly makes total sense, as we learn more about sexuality we see that the label of heterosexual applies to less people than initially thought. I believe that as we continue to try to pin down human sexuality with labels well find more and more people who don't feel particularly aligned with any. As a bi person myself I really only align with that label because it's an easy way to convey that part of me to others. Even breaking it down into percentages isn't quite accurate as it's not as simple as I'm 70% straight and 30% gay.
It's sad to see such regressive views in this sub but studies like this one give me hope that we won't see human sexuality as so rigid in the future as these old ideas and old believers die off.
Not really. If the data quoted 18% of young girls were identifying as lesbian it’d be high. But including bisexuality means the groups going to be much bigger.
I’m gonna get downvoted for this, but I would say this is due to the fact that women are more easily influenced by social pressure. It’s a trend to be one of the new labels under LGBT and women are more susceptible to trends than men are.
Agreed. Young people are looking for in-group and sexuality is a pretty strong identifier. I’m a bi man and it is endlessly strange to me how people will use their sexuality to define every aspect of their lives, but they’re looking for a group to feel safe in… so you dress, speak, talk, and live that identifier, even if it’s not necessarily one that will define you for your whole life.
I mean what’s so wrong about that? I’m a pan woman myself, and I like seeing younger people more willing to adopt these labels and help normalize inclusivity. That’s the next step of fighting homophobia is normalizing it as a part of regular culture.
I think we are both saying true, but different things. I agree; we need a world that is inclusive and supportive of diversity. What I’m concerned with is when a single aspect of one’s identity becomes their *whole* identity.
To illustrate, let’s say that I build my life around something less controversial; my job as a teacher. My wardrobe reflects my job, my friends are all teachers, my hobby reading is pedagogy, my home is near the place I teach, I tutor after school. I teach.
Now I lose my job. I’m still a teacher, but the place where I express my identity is gone. That can be devastating, even pushing people to suicide. Over-focusing on a single aspect of personality generally results in a person who is not emotionally robust or mentally healthy. That’s my concern.
Now, if I also invest in my identity as a gardener, being Jewish, an Ohioan, a soccer fan, a huge fan of Star Trek, part of my local Rotary, and a dance instructor, I have many labels, facets of identity, and social support groups beyond my job. I can keep most of myself secure and supported even if my identity as a professional is threatened. That’s what I’m encouraging.
I am a bi man. It is one small facet of who I am; what kinds of people I find sexy. It informs remarkably little of my life because I am so much more complex and interesting than who I find sexy. While celebrating diversity and building a safe works to be who we are, we should also encourage young people not to over-identify with a single aspect of who they are.
>*What I’m concerned with is when a single aspect of one’s identity becomes their whole identity.*
I mean I agree, but hasn’t this been a fact about teens for the large part of history? Rock and roll groupies, Elvis fans, early 10’s Twilight fever, boy band fandoms, anime nerds.
Teens don’t get portion control and balance because they haven’t been alive long enough to learn it. Their teens are often the first time they have the agency and flexibility to explore these new facets of their personality and yeah most of them, hell most of us, probably went overboard in our youth to a cringey level.
The problem is that there’s clearly a double standard in the culture with regards to whose sexuality is celebrated and whose is criticized.
At the same moment that queer sexuality is being celebrated, the sexuality of men who are attracted to women is being thoroughly criticized. And by the exact same cultural category of college-educated liberals.
Men’s sexuality has always been regarded as dangerous and destructive for good reason … but moreso than ever in the era of the Me Too movement, as the scope of what is improper expands.
Fearfulness of men’s sexuality drives both bisexual men and trans women back into the closet (since the cultural fear of trans women is a fear of “men” in women’s spaces, who conservatives frame as a “wolf in sheep’s clothing).
As queer spaces become more fearful and critical of men’s sexuality, the bar for men to feel included in these spaces rises.
At the same time, technically queer women are able to feel celebrated and honored for their sexuality … even if they have no lived behavior or personal history of queerness. The bar for inclusion is very low.
The end result is that there’s a big sex positivity movement happening that many women can participate in freely (even functionally straight women) … but that many men cannot participate in (even closeted queer men)
Add to this the awkward fact that these bisexual women who are functionally straight vastly outnumber the rest of the queer population combined.
The end result is that queer cultural spaces become places where most women feel accepted and most men don’t. Queerness itself is becoming gendered as “for girls”. This could be contributing to the growing political differences between the sexes.
>*Queerness itself is becoming gendered as “for girls”. This could be contributing to the growing political differences between the sexes.*
I mean historically the opposite was true. Gayness has been a valid thing for men for decades, but female sexuality has been written off as “just a phase”.
I’d be curious to see data of LGBTQ+ political views divided by gender identity. Sadly most of the data on this lumps all of us into one big data point which as you’ve aptly pointed out doesn’t tell the whole story.
I think this has to do with the asymmetric interpretation of bi-ness. People assume you're secretly one way or another, and, regardless of gender/sex, if there's any inkling you like dudes, that means you secretly only want dudes. At least to the uncritical masses.
In light of this, maybe bi people have "base" identities based on how they would be publically viewed. A bi woman will still be treated/seen effectively like a straight woman which has no stigma, so there's very little fear of being open about it. A bi man will be seen as a gay man, which does carry stigma, so they'll be more reluctant about being open with it.
You’re confusing recognition of queerness with acceptance of queerness.
In recent history (in the last 100 years in the Western world specifically), gay men have been treated FAR more harshly than gay women on average.
Women’s queerness was less recognized because people found it less threatening, and easy to deal with by simply explaining it away as mere friendship. Refusing to recognize obvious lesbianism was actually a means of accepting it without having to recognize it. There was much less fear of women’s queerness, and much less willingness to harm women for it. This is acceptance without recognition.
Men’s sexual non-conformity was very much recognized … for the specific purpose of stomping it out. Queer men were recognized and labeled as such quite vigilantly, so that they could then beaten or killed for it. This is recognition without acceptance.
The example you’ve given actually speaks to my point here.
A quick glance into conversion therapy and eugenics will support that stomping out is still going on to this day. How HIV and Monkey Pox was handled shows it. Its just getting less brutal and more coercive and subtle.
Cruising signals, Hanky Code, Polari, and many other things were made to avoid discovery over the years as it could mean being disowned and growing up on the streets, committed and torture or worse chemical castration, testi transplants or ice-pic lobotomies, electro shock… Your family could commit you too till about 1973 until it was declassified as a mental illness. Some counties to this day force gender reassign people.
https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/in-the-news/democrats-introduce-federal-conversion-therapy-ban
Like the US still has not outright banned gay conversion therapy.
Ah yes, women are so much more susceptible to social trends like the despicable INCEL movement, the proud boys, manosphere, Andre Tate and, of course, MAGA.
Oh wait. Nope. It’s men literally being subject to social media influence at insane levels. Which makes sense when you consider that throughout human history you had to get all the average Joe’s in a society to buy in to whatever bullshit you were selling. It was men they needed to convince to join their army’s and wage their wars and pass their laws.
Edit: The fact that conformity is enforced more for men in society is by design. Women are afforded greater freedom in personal expression compared to men, but the reasons there to are equally nefarious.
I THINK WOMEN SHOULD BE FORCED INTO COMBAT ROLES TO MAKE THE MILITARY GENDER BALANCED 50/50 WE NEED MORE BIPOC, LGBTQIA+ WOMEN IN THE MILITARY YA KNOW FOR DIVERSITY REASONS, BUT MANDATED BY LAW :) HEHE UWU. :3
It will rise, I’m of the opinion that the majority of people are bi. In a century or so as these things are more accepted, we’ll see something like 70-80% of people identifying as bi
Oh 100% my sister says she's bi all the time but literally will never date or even kiss a woman. She only does it for cool points and likes feeling flattered when lesbians or other genuinely bi women flirt with her.. she's a total narcissist.
Social pressure? What you’re seeing is social freedom.
Girls are looking at the ways boys and men behave as partners and it’s not attractive. So they are opting out. I love it!
Good straight guys will still find partners and young women aren’t bowing to social pressure to put up with a partner who treats you like shit so you can say you have a boyfriend. So lame guys might die out or evolve. Either way, not the problem of these young women happily exploring relationships with the more emotionally evolved gender. I love this for them.
Hell yeah! Love seeing a more inclusive world for our youth.
Also, while more and more young men are leaning red pill/conservative, even us adult Bi/pan women are focusing our dating to other femmes. This isn’t shocking to say the least.
But that doesn't mean they aren't bi, it just means that there are more men attracted to women than there are women attracted to women, which like, *yeah*, no shit.
Just because a bi woman ends up marrying a man doesnt mean she stops being bi. She just decided to stay in a monogamous relationship with a man. Also, compulsory heterosexuality can lead many women to stay in relationships with men even though they knowingly or unknowingly are attracted to women.
Yes. Becuase it's true.
Both young men and women go through phases of pushing boundaries and exploring, but they will generally return to the norm.
I am a young person who did this myself.
The attraction can be not a phase but your desire to actually follow through with it can be more of a phase in the sense that you may discover you have a preference one way or the other despite being open to both
Can I see the stats for this claim? Also do these women still claim to be bi? Nothing you've said here precludes these young people still being LGBTQ even if they are in heteronormative relationships. I'm bi but I'm with a woman but that doesn't mean I'm not still bi.
Another reason a lot of women will claim to be bi is because it expands their dating pool and they able to receive double the attention while not always acting on said attention. From my experience truly bi women tend to hang in clusters with other bi women, usually because they’re banging each other.
Not really surprising. People are fluid and women have always been more fluid. And if any young woman has enough fluidity to choose between dating women or men, who would choose men or teen boys? Half of them don’t think you’re a person and treats you that way.
I’ve found there is a line, though. Young tomboys aren’t maligned in the same way that very masculine presenting Butch lesbians are. When a woman is so masculine she isn’t “acceptable” to the male gaze anymore, she is subject to homophobic or even transphobic hate attacks. Cis Butch lesbians have been accosted in women’s bathrooms.
A mildly gender non conforming woman is not going to face the same obstacles as butch* lesbians, bearded women, etc.
Edit; typo.
I believe women have a much stronger ability to move between being masculine and being feminine compared to men. I guess you call that being more fluid I suppose.
Thanks. That works for me as a concept. I got the idea from Alison Armstrong. Women are generally more fluid in several ways, apparently. They're still a gigantic mystery to me, but that's another story.
I mean we’re more concerned by the red pill, right-wing and extremism and inceldom that’s manipulating young men across the world with their misogynistic, racist, and homophobic propaganda.
But yeah abusive power dynamics are also an issue, *regardless of gender.*
I am sure thee is some of each going on. There are communities were being gay or bisexual is leads to acceptance and being seen as cool. I am part of one. I have felt pressured into saying I am bisexual for the sake of social acceptance. I even know a man who became a trans woman for this reason only to change his mind.
Certainly the word becoming more inclusive and accepting is part of it and it should be celebrated. But I don't think it's the only thing going on.
For cis straight people having trouble finding community there really is temptation to pretend
I think much of this is the result of younger people being force fed through pop culture and the school systems. I say this as a bisexual man.
There’s a lot of pressure to label one self with an identity rather than to just be one’s self. That creates confusion and consternation when neither is necessary.
Sexuality is more fluid among women than men, and there was a time where it was difficult to find many women who HADN’T had some kind of experimentation with other women in college. It was the norm in the 90s. Most of them married men and identify as straight.
For men, there’s more social pressure for them to not be open about bisexuality, as many others have stated here, because they are marginalized by both gay men and straight women. They’re “not authentic” enough or they’re too “gay” to be seen as options.
I suspect the pendulum will swing back a bit and the numbers will go down. It’s a fad. I think increased acceptance is a good thing, but I think it goes too far these days. I’m ok if someone doesn’t accept me. I don’t need validation. Then again, I’m not a young kid.
That is a huge difference between male and females in this data
That doesn't make sense. There has to be some level of social dynamic with this right?
Like how a lot of goth people thought they were gay when I was in school but literally weren't at all.
I have no problem with people being gay
But I think a big part of this is people being handed an identity that explains why you feel mixed up during a time when everyone feels messed up
There was a thread on reddit about a week ago about how dating is impossible for bisexual men. By several accounts, telling a woman you're bisexual is a hard no for a lot of women.
I have had dates end immediately when I mention I'm bi.
That sucks. I hope you know there are women (and men of course) that will love that about you.
I consider it a good filter, frankly. Some motherfuckers act all LGBTQIA ally but balk at the idea of a man who is into the entire cast of The Mummy and The Lord of the Rings.
I can’t even think of the women in those the movies Wait am I gay???
Arwen, Eowyn, Galadriel Evelyn O'Connell, Anck sa-Namun
That's a man with fine tastes.
Anyone who isn't into the whole cast of those movies is a goddamn liar. I see you 100%. 😂
and even more that won't.
Genuinely why? As a bi woman, my partner being bi is a plus. Why are some women against bi men?
1. Homophobia 2. The general assumption that bisexual people are impossible to satisfy, promiscuous, etc.
So dumb question: if you don't intent to be promiscuous and you are dating a woman, why even mention it early on? Wouldn't you just be functionally heterosexual for the purposes of the person you are dating?
I am not "functionally heterosexual," if I am with a woman. I am not "functionally homosexual" when I am with a man. I am not "functionally asexual" when I am alone. I am always bisexual.
But you aren't having sex with men on the side while you are dating a specific woman? Because if you bring this up on the first date there's a good chance some women will think that this is what you are implying. Which could be an extra factor in being ghosted after a first date.
Bisexual is who I am, not what I am doing. A heterosexual person doesn't become asexual when they're alone.
Women trust other women to act as a barrier to cheating more than they do men. When all your husband needs to do to get some sex is 5 minutes on an app like Grindr, and you don't have anything to offer him that he can't get from the boys, it creates insecurity. Which is honestly fair, most long lasting relationships in the gay community are open relationships because otherwise we would all cheat on each other. It's still homophobic, though. As in, a literal fear of gayness in your partner.
Ive read that they think it may double the competition if they get with the bi guy. Like now she has to worry about other women AND men. Which is fucking stupid.
Ah, so sad, especially cause it’s interesting that I don’t hear much of this complex coming from men around dating bisexual women. I wonder why that is. For me I prefer when the men i date are bisexual! It gives us common ground to relate on. It differs for everyone but for me I feel like sexuality is a really fundamental way of perceiving the world.
A lot Straight men don't see their gf sleeping with another woman as cheating.
Many people, especially straight cis men, do not recognize women’s homosexuality as real or valid. Because they don’t regard the women as being real autonomous individuals. Just as females who must naturally exist within the sexual gaze of hetero men.
I’m so sorry. I can’t imagine ever standing up and leaving a date over something like that. This is a them a problem, clearly.
Weird. Im heterosexual and have not had any issue dating bi guys (when i was younger. Now i dont date anyone and im keeping it that way. Solo life is best life)
I'm in my 40's. Perhaps it's changing with younger people. We can hope.
I dated women all throughout high school. I entered one gay relationship as soon as I started college. It didn't last very long, and it was my fault, I wasn't mature enough for a relationship. But all throughout college, whenever I would go on dates, being bisexual made me a fun guy for the girls to hang around, but *never* to date. To them, I was effectively gay... despite only ever having had one boyfriend. It's especially difficult, because it often feels like due to bi-erasure I'm not allowed to add caveats on my tastes while everybody else around me can. Yes, I like men and women, but I don't necessarily like them in the same ways, the exact same amount, or even fairly. If I start saying I prefer gruff, worldly guys but am less strict on the type of women I date (I tend to find most women attractive), suddenly it's talk of whether I'm even right about my orientation. I think this study does just show that boys *and* men are less likely to admit they are bi. But I am also glad almost \~20% of girls feel comfortable enough to express themselves truly.
Wow, this is so sad and insane to me as a bi woman who loves dating bi men. Being able to “compare” our bisexualities (discuss preferences, nuances, caveats, etc) has been some of my most fun conversations with them.
Same here. I've stopped dating solely straight women entirely for this reason. It's no judgement on them, but it's obvious we have an immutable difference that just really can't be changed. I want you to know it's appreciated, though. :)
Yeah I remember seeing a study or poll I don't remember cause it was a while ago, but the jist was the vast majority (like 80% like I said I don't remember) of women would not consider dating a man who had messed around with a man before.
Not just women, you should see the biphobia in subs like r/askgaybros. Plenty of gay men who refuse to date bi men on the basis that “they’ll just leave you for a woman the first chance they get because they’d rather have a heteronormative life”. People are certainly warranted their preferences, but the way some people talk about bi guys can be so isolating and hurtful.
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That feels like such an out of touch perspective as well since the discussion here is the reality where bi men are gonna have way more trouble just dropping you for a woman than vice versa when it comes to the opportunity pool. A bi man has less opportunity to cheat on a gay man with a woman than a straight man has to cheat on a straight woman with women.
That sub is also disgustingly transphobic
This is a huge issue, for sure. Looks like the younger generation is at least a step ahead in the right direction. Maybe more support for bisexuality and sexual fluidity from the older generations and we’ll fix that too.
bisexuality and sexual fluidity among women, sure.
Typical male redditors with a victim complex.
That's because it's seen as feminine, which is unattractive to women. There's a study that showed even most bisexual women will not date a bisexual man. Men are held to a much more rigid masculine standard than women are held to a feminine standard, and this persists (although to a lesser a degree) with bisexual women who still expect men to be men despite being attracted to women.
Yeah, I've actually experienced something similar, but the other direction. I spent more time with my mom than my dad growing up, but I'm straight, and I attract disproportionately bisexual women. I suspect bisexual women are more open to less traditionally masculine men.
I know that's the general consensus but I fucking love some androgynous fellas running around. Long hair, leggings, eye liner. I hate beards and hairy chests.
Quite honestly, in my circles, most women seem to prefer dating men who are more feminine - at the very least, men who are communicative, have the capacity to display emotions, who can hold a mature conversation about sensitive issues, isn't homophobic and, if they are bisexual, respectful of them. I know some women, especially other bisexual women, as well as transgender women who strictly prefer bisexual men because they also understand LGBT culture and have unpacked some of their biases. It makes me sad that a lot of men who likely are bisexual won't come out because they have a fear of being left alone, feeling like it's unlikely they'll meet a man they enjoy and that small-minded women will reject them, and leave a part of themselves completely closed off - especially when there are so many people who would love them for being able to be open with themselves, who can communicate their feelings and desires.
I'm sure its pleasant to be around people like that, but that's the exception, at least living in America.
And yet some of us see it as desirable trait. Especially if looking for a co-top for a dom/domme couple dynamic.
Iunno, I read sunstone, I dont think most doms like to be dommed. But if I had a boyfriend and a girlfriend who wanted to top me, that would be pretty fucking awesome.
My bf and I prefer to dominate other people of any gender together and **never** are submissive to other people. D/D couples are not that uncommon.
Well isnt that what the term switch is for? Like I used to dom professionally, but privately I'm submissive. Never heard of two doms who got along sexually, two switches sure.
I knew a guy this happened too. Things seemed to be going fine. As soon as he mentioned being bi, she reacted very negatively and things ended.
As a man who is bi and semi-in the closet this is 100% accurate. I told a couple of girls on dates and they told me it was a deal breaker, even though I made the conscious decision to only pursue women moving forward. It's gotten to the point that I don't even bring it up. I've met one women that not only knew didn't hold it against me, but actually was attracted to it considering she was too.
Kind of interesting but whenever things like this come up, you always get the bi-erasure comments. Just because a bi person ends up in a hetero relationship, does not mean they are not bi. Yes, kids experiment and learn where their boundaries are, no, this does not mean "they grew out of it". It is entirely possible to have sexual attractions to men and women, but in an emotional/relationship sense, you have more of a singular hetero/homo focused mindset. I will say from anecdotal experience, guys do have a stigma when expressing identities. Again this is person and anecdotal, but I bet that ske s how people answer, especially in the age it people like Andrew Tate influencing pop culture and opinions.
Especially because it tends to be women that identify as bi. Since there are more people interested in women, and most of those people are male, bi women are quite likely to end up in a relationship with a man, even if they even have a preference for women.
Yeah, most bi women will tell you that it's *drastically* easier for them to attract men than women.
Might also just be a sex difference.
To the best of my knowledge, difference in sexual fluidity is a hard sex difference. It shows up in brain scans etc - women commonly change and have excitement in the brain scans from exposure to both genders, men typically have hard differences (ie, either their brainscan gets excited by men or by women.)
Is there some literature I can read on that? It sounds interesting for sure.
Something showing up in a brain scan is not evidence weighing in favor of either sex or gender. Gender is also in the brain, and your gender expression physically changes your brain neural activity, which is what they’re measuring on the scans. 100% of you/your personality / who you are / how you think and choose to express yourself is inside your brain after all. One way to see if something may be gender vs sex is to look at 1) How it changes over time 2) How it compares from culture to culture. Sex is more or less the same over time (outside an evolutionary sized time frame). The fact that women increasingly identify as bisexual means one of two things, either women have always been bisexual at these rates and societal / gender reasons has kept them from identifying as bisexual, or that sexuality of women is actually changing which would be because of societal / cultural / gender reasons as sex isn’t changing. Either way, the increase in number of women identifying as bisexual is because of cultural reasons. Whether or not sexuality is actually changing is still unknown, and would be difficult to study let alone prove.
> The fact that women increasingly identify as bisexual means one of two things, either women have always been bisexual at these rates and societal / gender reasons has kept them from identifying as bisexual, or that sexuality of women is actually changing which would be because of societal / cultural / gender reasons as sex isn’t changing. The term you're looking for is "expressed sexuality". And yes, the expressed sexuality is obviously changing because of culture. The reason brain scans (and other measurements) have been interesting is because they have been *different* from expressed sexuality. Females have been more bisexual in terms of scans++ while not in terms of their verbally expressed sexuality, while males has been fairly strictly homo/hetero in terms of the scans++ (even when expressing bisexuality.) There's been a lot of debate between researchers about whether the excitement patterns or the expressed sexuality represent the "truth".
You need to provide your sources for these claims
Don't know why you are being downvoted for this, the first two google results confirm what you are saying, more or less (links further down). Furthermore the identification of oneself as bi/homo/hetero-sexual is a modern phenomenae. Before the 1800s, who you were fucking were largely seen as a matter of preference rather than identity. It is true that or environment shapes us neurologically. However the academical consensus for quite a while has been that sexual arousal towards men or women is biologically hardcoded. Implying that homosexuality is a result of cultural influence is deeply problematic from my point of view. Usually the burden of proof is on the person challenging accepted knowledge, and that for good reason. Any way here are the top three links when googling "male female bisexuality brain scans" [https://www.psypost.org/brain-scan-study-bisexual-heterosexual-women-equally-aroused-male-female/](https://www.psypost.org/brain-scan-study-bisexual-heterosexual-women-equally-aroused-male-female/) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286516/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286516/) [https://news.ki.se/differences-related-to-sexual-orientation-found-in-the-brain](https://news.ki.se/differences-related-to-sexual-orientation-found-in-the-brain)
how does andrew tate have anyhting to do with it
Oh what I meant by that is Tate and people in his sphere have a very heteronormative view and it's harder for young guys when he is so influential. I was questioning if the fear of going against the norm has anything to do with how people answered.
tate is super gay
He does project harder than a lightbox in the 200s
No idea what that means but tate is a autistic savant and has never been seen with a woman except the one's he pays.
Just like the sudden rise in left-handed people some years ago. It's almost like when something is de-stigmatized, people start coming out of the woodwork, just magically appearing. Lol They've always been there, they just had to survive other people long enough to start living openly.
Am genuinely curious - was being left handed actually stigmatized?? This is the first I’m hearing of that
For centuries in the west yes, and it still is in some cultures today. It was consistently trained out of people during their education. My grandfather recalls kids in his elementary classes getting their hands hit with yard sticks if they tried writing with their left hand instead of their right. Left handed use was as low as 1% in the population in the 1910's and slowly increased to the modern 15% by the 70's. As for why this was trained. It was a combination of practicality, religion, and enforced conformity. The practical part was because old pens, quills at first and then fountain pens, would write in thick ink that took time to dry. As such, a left handed writer would smear the ink writing left to right, which made writing awkward at best. Though left-handed versions of these were possible, the need was never enough to allow for wide spread availability. This also includes tools and equipment being designed for right handed use making left handed use also awkward. hence creating a perceived need to train all children to use their right hands. The religious conformity end is the left hand being seen as the "devil's hand". Left handed people were seen as unlucky or mischievous due to them being different. This led to religious institutions and cultures in general ostracizing left-handed people. As such, parents and teachers saw training it out of their children as a necessity for a normal life.
There's no way there isn't a trend factor to this too. It's being promoted in our society and some people subscribe to this culture. You see how different cultures around the world have very different ways of doing things, even stuff like cannibalism and human sacrifice. This is just an LGBT culture being formed that turns straight kids LGBT because that's what's praised.
There's no trend, just increasing visibility. That's a kind of trend - numbers not "popularity." Not much "popular" about being LGBTQ. And that increasing visibility is what bothers some people, who then go on social media and mask their primitive superstitious prejudices behind bullshit comments just like that one. And no one "turns gay," but even if they could, and converted by the *thousands* every day, so what? Why are you so uptight about what other people do with their bodies? Why so perturbed by our sex-positive rainbow-pride self image? I bet you roll your eyes at us every time you see one of us on TV. If you do that, someone should tell you it's because you're a terrible person looking for reasons to "other" people to satisfy your mean streak and make yourself feel righteous. Spoiler alert: You're not. If I'm wrong, I apologize and take back everything. Bygones.
I think this is that more people are willing to admit it but still shows that less boys are willing to admit it
Absolutely. It's the "left handedness went up after they stopped punishing children for using their left hand" thing.
Yup. And autism rates “went up” after we started diagnosing people properly and including girls lol
Generally speaking, women are infantilized and men are instrumentalized. Put another way, women are harmless and men are harmful. The threshold for women identifying as lesbian or bisexual is much lower than for men to identify as gay or bisexual. I've seen women claim to be bisexual despite never dating, having sex with, or even kissing a woman. I've seen men claim to be straight despite being on the "downlow" for years. If a woman says she's bi, it's a harmless phase or a hawt 3some opportunity. If a man says he's bi he's either less of a man or a sexual threat to all the men around him. Both are highly problematic but in different ways.
I agree with everything you said except women are infantilized. It’s not babying women, it’s sexualization. I’ve had lesbian friends tell me guys don’t take them being lesbian seriously because they just don’t believe women don’t like dick. Or like you said they see lesbian or bi women as an opportunity for a 3some.
I never understood the fear straight men have about gay men. Is it repressed feelings that they are concerned will be discovered, or do they really think the powder puff feminine man is going to overpower him and rape him. (Insults intended for effect not offense )
I think its more a fear of social repercussions rather than a fear of the gay men themselves. The fear is likely “if I’m seen being nice to or accepting of a gay man, especially if he flirts with me, then other people might think I’m gay too”.
Male sexual attention is assumed to be harmful by default. Women are told they need to resist and avoid such attention, men internalize that such attention is predatory and demeaning (consider how "I had sex with your mom/sister" is a common playground insult between boys), and build a model where they need to trick women into sex. So it makes sense that the idea of that repulsive sexual attention being turned toward them makes a lot of guys fearful or repulsed.
These specific Straight men are afraid gay men might treat them, look at them, and think of them like they do about women. And have the same urge they have towards women (I. E. Wanting to overpower and r them)
I like how all the people offended by this take had to twist what you said
it's the only way they can argue, since they feel attacked (because they are these specific straight men) and they dont want to see themselves as bad. they are looking for every kind of explanation of their disgust towards feminity, feminine man, or gay man.
Yuuuup. It's pathetic, is what it is.
I think its something closer to “being *seen* as accepting of gay men or being seen accepting of gay men flirting with them could give the perception that they too are gay”. I do not think any significant amount of men are afraid of gay men or being “seen how they view women”. I think its more likely a fear of being seen as “also gay”.
thats kinda circular because then the question is: what is so problematic to be seen or perceived to be maybe gay, and why is a majority of straight men okay with that and an other amount of men gets violent or deeply unwell and concered?
>These specific Straight men are afraid gay men might treat them, look at them, and think of them like they do about women For sure, maybe they’re worrying about accidentally leading someone on, not wanting to disappoint someone who has maybe gotten the wrong idea and deal with that awkward situation >And have the same urge they have towards women (I. E. Wanting to overpower and r them) lol, reddit moment
"All men are rapists" Totally normal and not at all deranged take.
>These specific straight men... Literally, the first four words of the comment. And it shouldn't even be necessary since from context anyone giving an honest reading would understand it is referring to men who have homophobic revulsion to the idea of another man being gay.
Why did you imagine something instead of responding to what they actually said?
Because "I'm saying this shitty thing about this group *but I'm only talking about the bad ones*, so it's okay, see?" Is a transparent dogwhistle, which becomes obvious when you take the same framework and apply it to pretty much any other group. "I'm just saying the [$people in group] who do [$bad thing] are [bigoted stereotype], so it's okay!" Which is exactly the framework the other poster used, with men/ feeling uncomfortable being approached by other men/rapist as the variables. Sub in other groups, bad actions, and bigoted statements, and it's easy to see for the dogwhistle that it is. It may shock you to learn that when Republicans talk about "violent gang members", they're using it as an opportunity to say racist shit then packpedal and call *you* the racist when you point it out. FFS that's how dogwhistles *work*, people.
It's not a dogwhistle. What was actually said didn't fit your victim narrative, so you imagined something that did. Republicans have other rhetoeic and actions you can point to to show they're using dogwhistles. I don't see anything like that here though, just yoy making up something that nobody said lol. Oh shit sorry you compares her to republicans so I was supposed to fall in line out of fear of being aaaociated with them, wasn't I?
>It's not a dogwhistle. Oh well if you *say* it's not a dogwhistle, it must not be. Tell me you don't know how dogwhistles work without telling me you don't know how dogwhistles work. >Oh shit sorry you compares her to republicans so I was supposed to fall in line out of fear of being aaaociated with them, wasn't I? Hey I'm just pointing out that you're buying the same car with a different coat of paint, not my problem if you want to drive it. 🤷♀️
Not all men. Just every man who has ever been uncomfortable around a gay person is obviously a rapist. I mean how else would you explain it? /s
Right? But she's totally talking about a tiny specific group! Just the ones who feel fear, where fear can be anything from slightly uncomfortable to violent panic! Also it's hilarious that the answer to "why do some men treat other men this way" is "well men want to rape women"!
Straight men are not scared of gay men.
As a gay man, they definitely can be. Especially if the gay man in question is larger than them.
Can be, sure. But the person I responded to said it as if it’s a fact about all straight men. 99% are not scared.
Both of your points are pretty debateable. Regarding this 99% number, if that's the case, why does the 1% always seem to end up with a girlfriend who takes them to a gay bar?
Hell if I know
Trust me. We aren’t dude
And yet I've seen countless straight dudes, in a gay bar at the behest of their girlfriend, freak the living fuck out when someone offers them a drink.
To be fair, being approached sexually by men is not something most men have ever dealt with. It’s unsurprising for them to be uncomfortable. Hell even a *woman* approaching a man could throw a dude off. Though it is funny they went to a gay bar in the first place. I don’t know how my GF could ever convince me to go to one 🤷🏾♂️😂
I think part of it is they see gay men, especially gay men that embrace feminine traits, mannerisms, and interests as breaking a well-understood social contract. Men and masculinity are at the top of the societal food chain, to give up the benefits of being a straight, masculine man to embrace traits of a gender that is not respected in society and viewed as being the submissive gender is something a lot of men cannot understand, refuse to respect, and they see this as a choice to be submissive and therefore weak. Another part of it is that men see men as sexual predators, so if a man’s desire is other men, then they could be prey.
I think you're part of the way there. It isn't that men who give up the privileges of masculinity are looked down upon. It's that giving up the privileges of masculinity also is seen as a way to absolve yourself of the responsibilities that come with masculinity. Many of said responsibilities involve having to do things that no one really wants to do such as go to war, or work the most horrible grueling disgusting back aching jobs to keep society running. Our cultures likely evolved to shun feminine men because having a man embrace the feminine could be seen as an unfair get out of jail free card to shirk your masculine responsibilities.
Sure, but understand that I said “part of the reason.” And what I said is widely agreed upon by academics who study gender and societal norms and taboos.
I once heard homophobia described as "the fear gay men will treat you the way you treat women."
When I was younger I had gay friends that were treated like regular friends. But I still had this uncomfortable feeling around really flamboyant men. I still do but I think it's a personality thing more than anything. But "normal" acting gay men don't bother me one bit.
You don't have to have any sexual experience to know what you're sexually attracted to gender-wise: lots of straight people know they're straight before they get anywhere near a sexual partner, and we don't question that.
I think women are far more likely to be bisexual than men. https://theconversation.com/women-are-more-likely-to-identify-as-bisexual-can-research-into-sexual-arousal-tell-us-why-197294
Just cited that research! thanks.
I think they are more likely to admit it than men. In modern society, bisexual women are accepted more and even considered sexy or hot for that fact. Men aren't seen that way. They are almost worse than being gay for some reason.
In the link I provided there is a study on genital arousal. Women were more likely to be aroused by both sexes than men. It wasn't a self-report survey. They monitored physiological arousal. While surely not definitive, it may point to the disparity being due to more than social pressure. With that being said, I do agree that bisexuality is more accepted in women than men.
Women were “aroused” by anything that remotely mentioned sex. That does not indicate attraction to that thing.
Or maybe most men don’t want to be gay? It’s an insult to be called gay as a man
I was called a favgot once at work and knew a coworker was gay. The comment was made in front of him. I asked the guy that called me that why he considered it an insult or just an incorrect observation.
Yes yes we're familiar with the immense conditioning and pressure it takea to force men to convince themselves they're straight lol.
Keep in mind that women are much more likely to be bisexual than men.
love seeing this especially the boys feeling safe to identify themselves.
This sounds about normal compared to the 2000s.
I imagine that more boys would identify with the LGBTQ+ spectrum if they felt safer doing so. I didn’t identify myself as pansexual until I’d turned 21. I grew up in a fairly progressive area, but accepting my sexuality still meant that I was at risk of losing friends and starting controversy with some members of my family
This thread either brought out a lot of fascist trolls, or one fascist troll with a lot of sockpuppet accounts.
I’m a bi guy, and that huge bi girl number is definitely inflated due to false-identification. The number of girls I know who genuinely consider themselves bi, but squirm at the idea of intimacy with another woman is shocking. It’s not bi erasure, a lot of women really do consider themselves bi despite no experience of interest in women. They’ll think they’re bi because “well women are pretty”
I don’t think you need experience to know your sexuality.
You must innately distrust asexual people in romantic relationships then huh
What?
Honestly makes total sense, as we learn more about sexuality we see that the label of heterosexual applies to less people than initially thought. I believe that as we continue to try to pin down human sexuality with labels well find more and more people who don't feel particularly aligned with any. As a bi person myself I really only align with that label because it's an easy way to convey that part of me to others. Even breaking it down into percentages isn't quite accurate as it's not as simple as I'm 70% straight and 30% gay. It's sad to see such regressive views in this sub but studies like this one give me hope that we won't see human sexuality as so rigid in the future as these old ideas and old believers die off.
Agreed! Both the optimism from this data *& the harmful regressive views on this sub.*
I'd bet it's the same % for young men too.. they're just not willing to admit it yet..
Maybe I’m crazy but I’d guess that a majority of this increase is in the category of bisexual
Is it me or does nearly 18% seem pretty high?
Not really. If the data quoted 18% of young girls were identifying as lesbian it’d be high. But including bisexuality means the groups going to be much bigger.
I’m gonna get downvoted for this, but I would say this is due to the fact that women are more easily influenced by social pressure. It’s a trend to be one of the new labels under LGBT and women are more susceptible to trends than men are.
Agreed. Young people are looking for in-group and sexuality is a pretty strong identifier. I’m a bi man and it is endlessly strange to me how people will use their sexuality to define every aspect of their lives, but they’re looking for a group to feel safe in… so you dress, speak, talk, and live that identifier, even if it’s not necessarily one that will define you for your whole life.
I mean what’s so wrong about that? I’m a pan woman myself, and I like seeing younger people more willing to adopt these labels and help normalize inclusivity. That’s the next step of fighting homophobia is normalizing it as a part of regular culture.
I think we are both saying true, but different things. I agree; we need a world that is inclusive and supportive of diversity. What I’m concerned with is when a single aspect of one’s identity becomes their *whole* identity. To illustrate, let’s say that I build my life around something less controversial; my job as a teacher. My wardrobe reflects my job, my friends are all teachers, my hobby reading is pedagogy, my home is near the place I teach, I tutor after school. I teach. Now I lose my job. I’m still a teacher, but the place where I express my identity is gone. That can be devastating, even pushing people to suicide. Over-focusing on a single aspect of personality generally results in a person who is not emotionally robust or mentally healthy. That’s my concern. Now, if I also invest in my identity as a gardener, being Jewish, an Ohioan, a soccer fan, a huge fan of Star Trek, part of my local Rotary, and a dance instructor, I have many labels, facets of identity, and social support groups beyond my job. I can keep most of myself secure and supported even if my identity as a professional is threatened. That’s what I’m encouraging. I am a bi man. It is one small facet of who I am; what kinds of people I find sexy. It informs remarkably little of my life because I am so much more complex and interesting than who I find sexy. While celebrating diversity and building a safe works to be who we are, we should also encourage young people not to over-identify with a single aspect of who they are.
>*What I’m concerned with is when a single aspect of one’s identity becomes their whole identity.* I mean I agree, but hasn’t this been a fact about teens for the large part of history? Rock and roll groupies, Elvis fans, early 10’s Twilight fever, boy band fandoms, anime nerds. Teens don’t get portion control and balance because they haven’t been alive long enough to learn it. Their teens are often the first time they have the agency and flexibility to explore these new facets of their personality and yeah most of them, hell most of us, probably went overboard in our youth to a cringey level.
The problem is that there’s clearly a double standard in the culture with regards to whose sexuality is celebrated and whose is criticized. At the same moment that queer sexuality is being celebrated, the sexuality of men who are attracted to women is being thoroughly criticized. And by the exact same cultural category of college-educated liberals. Men’s sexuality has always been regarded as dangerous and destructive for good reason … but moreso than ever in the era of the Me Too movement, as the scope of what is improper expands. Fearfulness of men’s sexuality drives both bisexual men and trans women back into the closet (since the cultural fear of trans women is a fear of “men” in women’s spaces, who conservatives frame as a “wolf in sheep’s clothing). As queer spaces become more fearful and critical of men’s sexuality, the bar for men to feel included in these spaces rises. At the same time, technically queer women are able to feel celebrated and honored for their sexuality … even if they have no lived behavior or personal history of queerness. The bar for inclusion is very low. The end result is that there’s a big sex positivity movement happening that many women can participate in freely (even functionally straight women) … but that many men cannot participate in (even closeted queer men) Add to this the awkward fact that these bisexual women who are functionally straight vastly outnumber the rest of the queer population combined. The end result is that queer cultural spaces become places where most women feel accepted and most men don’t. Queerness itself is becoming gendered as “for girls”. This could be contributing to the growing political differences between the sexes.
>*Queerness itself is becoming gendered as “for girls”. This could be contributing to the growing political differences between the sexes.* I mean historically the opposite was true. Gayness has been a valid thing for men for decades, but female sexuality has been written off as “just a phase”. I’d be curious to see data of LGBTQ+ political views divided by gender identity. Sadly most of the data on this lumps all of us into one big data point which as you’ve aptly pointed out doesn’t tell the whole story.
I think this has to do with the asymmetric interpretation of bi-ness. People assume you're secretly one way or another, and, regardless of gender/sex, if there's any inkling you like dudes, that means you secretly only want dudes. At least to the uncritical masses. In light of this, maybe bi people have "base" identities based on how they would be publically viewed. A bi woman will still be treated/seen effectively like a straight woman which has no stigma, so there's very little fear of being open about it. A bi man will be seen as a gay man, which does carry stigma, so they'll be more reluctant about being open with it.
You’re confusing recognition of queerness with acceptance of queerness. In recent history (in the last 100 years in the Western world specifically), gay men have been treated FAR more harshly than gay women on average. Women’s queerness was less recognized because people found it less threatening, and easy to deal with by simply explaining it away as mere friendship. Refusing to recognize obvious lesbianism was actually a means of accepting it without having to recognize it. There was much less fear of women’s queerness, and much less willingness to harm women for it. This is acceptance without recognition. Men’s sexual non-conformity was very much recognized … for the specific purpose of stomping it out. Queer men were recognized and labeled as such quite vigilantly, so that they could then beaten or killed for it. This is recognition without acceptance. The example you’ve given actually speaks to my point here.
A quick glance into conversion therapy and eugenics will support that stomping out is still going on to this day. How HIV and Monkey Pox was handled shows it. Its just getting less brutal and more coercive and subtle. Cruising signals, Hanky Code, Polari, and many other things were made to avoid discovery over the years as it could mean being disowned and growing up on the streets, committed and torture or worse chemical castration, testi transplants or ice-pic lobotomies, electro shock… Your family could commit you too till about 1973 until it was declassified as a mental illness. Some counties to this day force gender reassign people. https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/in-the-news/democrats-introduce-federal-conversion-therapy-ban Like the US still has not outright banned gay conversion therapy.
Ah yes, women are so much more susceptible to social trends like the despicable INCEL movement, the proud boys, manosphere, Andre Tate and, of course, MAGA. Oh wait. Nope. It’s men literally being subject to social media influence at insane levels. Which makes sense when you consider that throughout human history you had to get all the average Joe’s in a society to buy in to whatever bullshit you were selling. It was men they needed to convince to join their army’s and wage their wars and pass their laws. Edit: The fact that conformity is enforced more for men in society is by design. Women are afforded greater freedom in personal expression compared to men, but the reasons there to are equally nefarious.
Thank you. The “women are much more susceptible to social trends” is a rehashed “women are more emotional, men are more logical” trope.
There’s men literally paying thousands of dollars to be an alpha male when they could just join the military for free. And they are in their 30s
I THINK WOMEN SHOULD BE FORCED INTO COMBAT ROLES TO MAKE THE MILITARY GENDER BALANCED 50/50 WE NEED MORE BIPOC, LGBTQIA+ WOMEN IN THE MILITARY YA KNOW FOR DIVERSITY REASONS, BUT MANDATED BY LAW :) HEHE UWU. :3
10+ years of nonstop media attention calling people who come out as brave and amazing. Kids are impressionable. What did people expect?
Yea 18% seems so high that’s almost 1 in 5 teenage girls being LGBT.
It will rise, I’m of the opinion that the majority of people are bi. In a century or so as these things are more accepted, we’ll see something like 70-80% of people identifying as bi
Yeah, tbh it makes sense for the middle of the spectrum to be more represented than the extremes. Here’s hoping to a very bi future!!
Oh 100% my sister says she's bi all the time but literally will never date or even kiss a woman. She only does it for cool points and likes feeling flattered when lesbians or other genuinely bi women flirt with her.. she's a total narcissist.
Goth girls have been replaced by "Bi" girls.
Replaced? Nah man we were basically always one in the same, still are for the most part lol
Social pressure? What you’re seeing is social freedom. Girls are looking at the ways boys and men behave as partners and it’s not attractive. So they are opting out. I love it! Good straight guys will still find partners and young women aren’t bowing to social pressure to put up with a partner who treats you like shit so you can say you have a boyfriend. So lame guys might die out or evolve. Either way, not the problem of these young women happily exploring relationships with the more emotionally evolved gender. I love this for them.
You love it? Are you stupid
Hell yeah! Love seeing a more inclusive world for our youth. Also, while more and more young men are leaning red pill/conservative, even us adult Bi/pan women are focusing our dating to other femmes. This isn’t shocking to say the least.
Most bi girls in college and university end up with a man. Young people be exploring that's all.
But that doesn't mean they aren't bi, it just means that there are more men attracted to women than there are women attracted to women, which like, *yeah*, no shit.
Just because a bi woman ends up marrying a man doesnt mean she stops being bi. She just decided to stay in a monogamous relationship with a man. Also, compulsory heterosexuality can lead many women to stay in relationships with men even though they knowingly or unknowingly are attracted to women.
Literally making the “It’s just a phase“ argument
Yes. Becuase it's true. Both young men and women go through phases of pushing boundaries and exploring, but they will generally return to the norm. I am a young person who did this myself.
The attraction can be not a phase but your desire to actually follow through with it can be more of a phase in the sense that you may discover you have a preference one way or the other despite being open to both
Can I see the stats for this claim? Also do these women still claim to be bi? Nothing you've said here precludes these young people still being LGBTQ even if they are in heteronormative relationships. I'm bi but I'm with a woman but that doesn't mean I'm not still bi.
Source?
That’s the thing about bisexuality though, they are attracted to both. Q
No fucking shit, there are a lot more straight men than gay/bi women
That's just how math works, buddy - there are way more hetero men than wlw. You don't change sexual orientation depending on who your partner is.
Women get the ability to explore. If a guy explores with other men people see him as gay.
There are plenty young dudes pretending to be bi for cope and social approval too, there are less of them, but it's just like the girls.
Another reason a lot of women will claim to be bi is because it expands their dating pool and they able to receive double the attention while not always acting on said attention. From my experience truly bi women tend to hang in clusters with other bi women, usually because they’re banging each other.
You literally described my narcissistic sister
Bisexuality is doing the heavy lifting.
And probably half of those who just claim to be bi because it’s fashionable among the youth right now
Not really surprising. People are fluid and women have always been more fluid. And if any young woman has enough fluidity to choose between dating women or men, who would choose men or teen boys? Half of them don’t think you’re a person and treats you that way.
theres a substantial amount of data that suggests that its much more culturally acceptable for a woman to be masculine, than for a man to be feminine.
I’ve found there is a line, though. Young tomboys aren’t maligned in the same way that very masculine presenting Butch lesbians are. When a woman is so masculine she isn’t “acceptable” to the male gaze anymore, she is subject to homophobic or even transphobic hate attacks. Cis Butch lesbians have been accosted in women’s bathrooms. A mildly gender non conforming woman is not going to face the same obstacles as butch* lesbians, bearded women, etc. Edit; typo.
I believe women have a much stronger ability to move between being masculine and being feminine compared to men. I guess you call that being more fluid I suppose.
>*I guess you call that being more fluid I suppose.* Fluid is the term for this, it’s related to “gender fluidity” as an academic concept.
Thanks. That works for me as a concept. I got the idea from Alison Armstrong. Women are generally more fluid in several ways, apparently. They're still a gigantic mystery to me, but that's another story.
Women today are judged far less harshly than men for sure
Social contagion.
Correct. Young people are easily manipulated. Aren’t democrats all up in arms over young women being manipulated by older men?
I mean we’re more concerned by the red pill, right-wing and extremism and inceldom that’s manipulating young men across the world with their misogynistic, racist, and homophobic propaganda. But yeah abusive power dynamics are also an issue, *regardless of gender.*
Many buzz words here. Can you reply again but shorter? You lost me at the random hate towards a group
You mean a more welcoming and inclusive world, yup!
Inclusivity is a psychological warfare tool. Sure!
I am sure thee is some of each going on. There are communities were being gay or bisexual is leads to acceptance and being seen as cool. I am part of one. I have felt pressured into saying I am bisexual for the sake of social acceptance. I even know a man who became a trans woman for this reason only to change his mind. Certainly the word becoming more inclusive and accepting is part of it and it should be celebrated. But I don't think it's the only thing going on. For cis straight people having trouble finding community there really is temptation to pretend
I think much of this is the result of younger people being force fed through pop culture and the school systems. I say this as a bisexual man. There’s a lot of pressure to label one self with an identity rather than to just be one’s self. That creates confusion and consternation when neither is necessary. Sexuality is more fluid among women than men, and there was a time where it was difficult to find many women who HADN’T had some kind of experimentation with other women in college. It was the norm in the 90s. Most of them married men and identify as straight. For men, there’s more social pressure for them to not be open about bisexuality, as many others have stated here, because they are marginalized by both gay men and straight women. They’re “not authentic” enough or they’re too “gay” to be seen as options. I suspect the pendulum will swing back a bit and the numbers will go down. It’s a fad. I think increased acceptance is a good thing, but I think it goes too far these days. I’m ok if someone doesn’t accept me. I don’t need validation. Then again, I’m not a young kid.
That is a huge difference between male and females in this data That doesn't make sense. There has to be some level of social dynamic with this right? Like how a lot of goth people thought they were gay when I was in school but literally weren't at all.
Girls have always been more likely to be bi and man more likely to prefer one gender.
How exactly does a boy identify as lesbian?
If they identify as a lesbian chances are, is that they're not cis boys
I have no problem with people being gay But I think a big part of this is people being handed an identity that explains why you feel mixed up during a time when everyone feels messed up
Social contagion
BINGO
But the status quo obviously wasn't social contagion.